COPYRIGHT POLICY
Rob Repp
>REGARDING TRADEMARKED AND COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL USED ON-LINE:
TSR is now an active member of the on-line gaming community. Since
Day-One, TSR products and artwork have been developed by creative people
employed or hired by TSR. This has resulted in the creation of an
extensive line of products, identities, names, rules, game mechanics,
logos, and standards of quality, to name a few. The gaming products,
novels, and publications are designed to encourage resourcefulness and
creativity in play. All of these created properties are owned by TSR
through national trademarks and copyrights which protect their publication
electronically or published on paper. When they are published by anyone
other than TSR, Inc. or their licensees, this publication becomes an
infringement to TSR trademarks and copyrights.
However, the gamers, designers, writers, artists, and editors who work for
TSR, do not wish to inhibit role playing game play.
>SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR CONTINUED PLAY:
WHEN USING TSR PROPERTIES:
You can create material using the AD&D game mechanics, etc. and place that
material on MPGNet, a licensee of TSR, or place it on AOL on TSR's new
Bulletin Board. You can download anything -- graphics, games, etc.
appearing on TSR AOL for your personal use. Currently, any other
distribution to the general public in paper form or on the net of
AD&D adventures, other TSR materials and game mechanics, or copyrighted
materials is considered unauthorized. However, you CAN freely distribute
or publish "generic" novels, stories, game mechanics, etc. Read on.
HOW TO CREATE GENERIC MATERIAL SOME TIPS:
Don't specifically use AD&D statistics. Be creative. If you want a PC to
encounter a stupid but strong NPC, let the GM determine the NPC's actual
stats for the game system used by that GM. If the party encounters a
hydra, let the GM look up the stats for the hydra in the game system he is
using.
Don't set the adventures in a TSR world. Create your own or use one from
history or legend. For example, you could set your adventure in Atlantis,
but not in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Adventure World.
Don't use monsters, spells, etc. that were created by TSR. Create and name
your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their actual
names backward for uniqueness.
Or, if a monster or spell is used in several different game systems, this
is a good indication that it is not owned by TSR. For example, Drow were
created by TSR, but a hydra is a known legendary monster and is public
domain.
You really can get going creatively when you invent your own, unique, game
mechanics . . . worlds, monsters, etc. And you are free to publish
anywhere when you specifically do not rely on AD&D game mechanics or other
material from TSR.
With our new on-line forum on AOL, we'd like to hear from you about games,
graphics, audio, and other material you'd like to download for your own
gaming. Please let us know. We plan to be electronically publishing a lot
of great things in the future for your gaming use.
(R) and TM designate trademarks owned by TSR, Inc. (c) 1994 TSR, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Rob Repp | InterNet: tsr...@aol.com
Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mob...@mercury.mcs.com
TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
__________________________________ | GEnie: TSR.Online AOL: TSR Inc
All opinions are my own, not TSR's | 414-248-3625 Fax 414-248-0389
S. Keith Graham
>PLEASE REPOST - OFFICIAL CORPORATE STATEMENT
>>SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR CONTINUED PLAY:
>WHEN USING TSR PROPERTIES:
>You can create material using the AD&D game mechanics, etc. and place that
>material on MPGNet, a licensee of TSR, or place it on AOL on TSR's new
>Bulletin Board. You can download anything -- graphics, games, etc.
>appearing on TSR AOL for your personal use. Currently, any other
>distribution to the general public in paper form or on the net of
>AD&D adventures, other TSR materials and game mechanics, or copyrighted
>materials is considered unauthorized. However, you CAN freely distribute
>or publish "generic" novels, stories, game mechanics, etc. Read on.
Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
house rules, or modules between any two people.
Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
for his records from now on.
>Or, if a monster or spell is used in several different game systems, this
>is a good indication that it is not owned by TSR. For example, Drow were
>created by TSR, but a hydra is a known legendary monster and is public
>domain.
Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.
>With our new on-line forum on AOL, we'd like to hear from you about games,
>graphics, audio, and other material you'd like to download for your own
>gaming. Please let us know. We plan to be electronically publishing a lot
>of great things in the future for your gaming use.
Wow, did I predict this coming, or what?
Keith Graham
vap...@cad.gatech.edu
John Michael Martz
Rob Repp <mob...@Mercury.mcs.com> wrote:
>PLEASE REPOST - OFFICIAL CORPORATE STATEMENT
>
>
>>REGARDING TRADEMARKED AND COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL USED ON-LINE:
>TSR is now an active member of the on-line gaming community. Since
Welcome.
>logos, and standards of quality, to name a few. The gaming products,
>novels, and publications are designed to encourage resourcefulness and
>creativity in play. All of these created properties are owned by TSR
>through national trademarks and copyrights which protect their publication
> electronically or published on paper. When they are published by anyone
>other than TSR, Inc. or their licensees, this publication becomes an
>infringement to TSR trademarks and copyrights.
snip
>>SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR CONTINUED PLAY:
>
>WHEN USING TSR PROPERTIES:
>You can create material using the AD&D game mechanics, etc. and place that
>material on MPGNet, a licensee of TSR, or place it on AOL on TSR's new
>Bulletin Board. You can download anything -- graphics, games, etc.
>appearing on TSR AOL for your personal use. Currently, any other
>distribution to the general public in paper form or on the net of
>AD&D adventures, other TSR materials and game mechanics, or copyrighted
>materials is considered unauthorized. However, you CAN freely distribute
>or publish "generic" novels, stories, game mechanics, etc. Read on.
So, I'm to take it that the DARK SUN Net Handbook would be officially
sanctioned if it was placed on these sites?
>HOW TO CREATE GENERIC MATERIAL SOME TIPS:
The DSNHB will not be genericized--it would defeat its purpose.
>With our new on-line forum on AOL, we'd like to hear from you about games,
>graphics, audio, and other material you'd like to download for your own
>gaming. Please let us know. We plan to be electronically publishing a lot
>of great things in the future for your gaming use.
How about backdated DRAGON articles?
JOHN
--
* John M. Martz: Psychology Dept, UNC-CH * *
| CB# 3270, Davie Hall | B = f(P,E) |
| Chapel Hill, NC 27599 | --Kurt Lewin |
* JOHN_...@UNC.EDU * *
Silveras
Keith Graham) writes:
>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
>house rules, or modules between any two people.
>
>Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
>for his records from now on.
Congratulations! Twenty seconds after TSR makes an overture, you slam
the door on their fingers. Very adult.
Read more closely; they have been talking about public posting to
general access areas. No mention of limitations on direct exchanges
between individuals or within a private group has been made.
Gosh, I'm proud to be part of the in-line community; so open-minded
and fair.....
Silv...@aol.com
mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu
I don't get this, why can T$R copyright all of this material
and say on the cover, that if you don't understand something, "make
it up!" They keep on telling us that we can not distribute our own
ideas, have fun with makeing up new rules, and have fun with the
"roleplaying experence."
All Roleplaying ideas (if I am right), are based on the ideas
of creativity. Creativity (obviously) comes from with in your self.
If someone is no longer able to create and have fun with what ever
they are doing, WHAT IS THE POINT of roleplaying games!
Just by the roleplaying experence you must have fun SHAREING
INFORMATION with others. This is part of what the whole experence is
about. With out the shareing of information, the game is one sided,
and all thatis left is sitting in a corner reading roleplaying books.
I do admit that it is sometimes fun reading a game book to
learn new stuff, but that is not what the game is about. The game
is about having fun with creativty, and osperanious oritor with
others.
I know, I've probably said some things that are not quite
true, but I'm sorry.... that TSR has to act so low. Just by writing
an artical like this, it makes people (like me) feel sad about a
company that used to be all right....
Don't get me wrong, I like the system, (somewhat), but its the
money involved with the people behind the system that I don't like.
I'm one of those people who can NOT stand people who do not let others
do what they intended, and what would be the best thing for its users.
I think that this usenet group is one of the best ways to
promote roleplaying games, and to let users have an enviorment, that
can quickly answer questions et cetra. This usenet group is an
excelent altrenitive to TSRs chezy Dragon Magazine, (although some
stuff this dosn't have), and the best part is that everything comes
from the users, who play the system.
I'm just so sorry that they (TSR) could stoop so low..
;(.
A very disapointed person, (unless they can redeem themselves):
/mAtT/
/
(mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu)
--
******* *******
*%**%** **%**%*
******* *******
******* *******
Thomas Farrell
stuff in about two weeks, but based upon this policy, I feel that I will
have to think it over again. I'm not sure I want to use your game world
if I can't write my own additions to it and give them to my friends.
Oh, by the way, I'd like to announce to the world at large that I will
be creating a new role playing game system. I know there are plenty of
those in the world now, and I'm sure mine isn't going to have any
thrilling new innovations that will turn the universe on its ear, but it
will have one nice feature: I intend to make it available on the
internet for free. I will probably copyright the material, and will then
make it available for free use. Additionally, I will not place any kind
of restrictions on quotation of reproduction of my system or the text
thereof, in whole or in part, so long as I'm credited. Lastly, any
related materials that I or you develop for the system you may do as you
please with. I anticipate an initial release of the material for review
and commentary within two to three months.
Ciao for niao,
Tom
--
______
\ / Anything worth doing gets
\ / Patricia Ireland arrested.
\/ -Lynn Lavner
Tony R. Marasco
>
>In <mobius-0609...@mobius.pr.mcs.net> mob...@Mercury.mcs.com (Rob )
>Repp
>writes:
>
>>WHEN USING TSR PROPERTIES:
>>You can create material using the AD&D game mechanics, etc. and place that
>>material on MPGNet, a licensee of TSR, or place it on AOL on TSR's new
>>Bulletin Board. You can download anything -- graphics, games, etc.
>>appearing on TSR AOL for your personal use. Currently, any other
>>AD&D adventures, other TSR materials and game mechanics, or copyrighted
>>materials is considered unauthorized. However, you CAN freely distribute
>>or publish "generic" novels, stories, game mechanics, etc. Read on.
>
>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
>house rules, or modules between any two people.
>
>Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
>for his records from now on.
I don't think that is inferred here. If this was the case then I can't
see how you could play the game. I kind of like the idea of a single (well
really two) site as a way of orderly distribution.
This question still remains: Does the "general public" have the right to
produce software (from char. generators to, let's say, a Hypertext DM's
Guide) and distribute it providing it's stored on a licensed site?
-------
| Tony Marasco | "Questions are a burden for others. |
| Penn State University | Answers are a prison for oneself." |
| Schuylkill Haven, PA 17976 | - The Prisoner |
| trm...@psuvm.psu.edu |
Timothy Toner
Thomas Farrell <tfar...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
>Oh, by the way, I'd like to announce to the world at large that I will
>be creating a new role playing game system.
>I intend to make it available on the
>internet for free. I will probably copyright the material, and will then
>make it available for free use.
Sorry to be the crasher of your good will, but you can't have it both
ways. Either it's 100% Copyrighted, or 100% Public Domain. In essence,
it means that once it's in the public domain, you have NO control on
how it's used. TSR could paste it in a book (don't worry, they won't)
and make a zillion bucks (look at all the freeware distributors. In
effect, they're just making the copy available), and you'd be powerless.
WinningerR
>>>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
house rules, or modules between any two people.
Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
for his records from now on.<<<
No, they specifically DIDN'T outlaw such use. "Any two people" is hardly
"the general public" just as "my gaming group" is hardly "the general
public."
>>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
They were created by?
WinningerR
writes:
>>>I don't get this, why can T$R copyright all of this material
and say on the cover, that if you don't understand something, "make
it up!" They keep on telling us that we can not distribute our own
ideas, have fun with makeing up new rules, and have fun with the
"roleplaying experence."<<<
They are not saying you can't make up new rules, etc. They are saying that
if you want to share these ideas with the "general public," you must
follow their rules. In other words, they fully understand that half the
fun of roleplaying games is sharing. Now, they're trying to work out ways
that you can share without jeopardizing their rights.
Why is MPGNet, AOL, and the promise to eventually bring "mirror sites" on
line not enough?
WinningerR
(Thomas Farrell) writes:
>>>I feel that I will have to think it over again. I'm not sure I want to
use your game world if I can't write my own additions to it and give them
to my friends.<<<
Unless your friends constitute the "general public" no one ever said you
couldn't give them your additions to the Realms. Let's be reasonable here.
Good luck on the game. I hope it works out.
WinningerR
<TRM...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>>This question still remains: Does the "general public" have the right
to
produce software (from char. generators to, let's say, a Hypertext DM's
Guide) and distribute it providing it's stored on a licensed site?<<<
TSR's uploads clearly imply so. In fact, they mentioned "software" as one
of the uploadable categories at some point.
Truls Parsson
>>>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
>They were created by?
The race wasn't created by TSR but the name drow was. So you can talk about dark elves without any problems but if you call them drows then your using a TSR name.
The Troll
Kynn Bartlett
>your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their actual
>names backward for uniqueness.
So all that's needed is to spell names backwards?
Word elves.
Htlol, demon spider queen.
Retsnimle.
Hey, this is easy.
--Nnyk
Kynn Bartlett
S. Keith Graham <vap...@cad.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>Or, if a monster or spell is used in several different game systems, this
>>is a good indication that it is not owned by TSR. For example, Drow were
>>created by TSR, but a hydra is a known legendary monster and is public
>>domain.
>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.
So who were they created by?
--Kynn
S. Keith Graham
Ahm, no. You can have a "license to distribute for free", and provided
that the person abides by the license, they may use/distribute the
work without violating the copyright. (And you can put conditions on
distribution, such as "no modifications of the original", or whatever
in the license as well.)
If you do not expressly release something into the public domain (i.e.
make it free), then you retain the copyright.
If you license TSR to distribute it, they then have rights to do with
it as they please. (Generally, they would pay you money for such
license.)
There is a great deal of shareware that may be freely distributed, but
is very definately copyrighted.
Keith Graham
vap...@cad.gatech.edu
Stephane Mutz
As you can see, it's my first participation to this group but
I've followed the discussions for a while.
As I am french, please excuse my poor writings
Is TSR material copyrighted everywhere (I mean in the world) ?
Is it possible to establish a list of TSR's terms and bane them
from our productions ? This way, our material will not make any
reference to TSR's material by will fortunetly be compatible with a famous
role playing game.
Timothy M. Schreyer
|> be creating a new role playing game system. I know there are plenty of
|> those in the world now, and I'm sure mine isn't going to have any
|> thrilling new innovations that will turn the universe on its ear, but it
|> will have one nice feature: I intend to make it available on the
|> internet for free. I will probably copyright the material, and will then
|> make it available for free use. Additionally, I will not place any kind
|> of restrictions on quotation of reproduction of my system or the text
|> thereof, in whole or in part, so long as I'm credited. Lastly, any
|> related materials that I or you develop for the system you may do as you
|> please with. I anticipate an initial release of the material for review
|> and commentary within two to three months.
|>
:-)
--
Timothy M. Schreyer sch...@kennet.paramax.com
Weather Information Services (610) 444-2449
Unisys Government Systems Group FAX: (610) 444-2420
221 Gale Lane, Kennett Square, PA 19348
Rob Repp
(John Michael Martz) wrote:
It would be licensed for distribution, although that may be what you mean
by sanctioned. By sanctioned I mean promoted by TSR as an official
product, which it would not be.
>
> >HOW TO CREATE GENERIC MATERIAL SOME TIPS:
>
> The DSNHB will not be genericized--it would defeat its purpose.
>
> >With our new on-line forum on AOL, we'd like to hear from you about games,
> >graphics, audio, and other material you'd like to download for your own
> >gaming. Please let us know. We plan to be electronically publishing a lot
> >of great things in the future for your gaming use.
>
> How about backdated DRAGON articles?
Some of that isn't completely clear, since the way (until recently) bought
publication rights on this stuff didn;t include electronic publication
rights. I'm pretty sure that some of the stuff was written by people
outside the company, and so we wouldn't own republication rights of any
kind on those. Our legal people are researching this to find out what we
do and don;t have permission to reproduce, so until then, we can't let old
articles out. After we know what we have rights to, then we'll talk.
>
> JOHN
> --
> * John M. Martz: Psychology Dept, UNC-CH * *
> | CB# 3270, Davie Hall | B = f(P,E) |
> | Chapel Hill, NC 27599 | --Kurt Lewin |
> * JOHN_...@UNC.EDU * *
Rob Repp
Rob Repp
> In article <34ina7$a...@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vap...@cad.gatech.edu (S. Keith
> Graham) says:
> This question still remains: Does the "general public" have the right to
> produce software (from char. generators to, let's say, a Hypertext DM's
> Guide) and distribute it providing it's stored on a licensed site?
Yup. Please include our disclaimer in it, and please limit distribution to
licensed sites.
>
> -------
> | Tony Marasco | "Questions are a burden for others. |
> | Penn State University | Answers are a prison for oneself." |
> | Schuylkill Haven, PA 17976 | - The Prisoner |
> | trm...@psuvm.psu.edu |
Michael Mezo
Winninger writes: ... Too damn much! Guy, you are at least more clueful than
most Aolers, but you are still wasting bandwidth by putting up your one
sentance refutations of peoples points. If you could be so kind as to not
waste the bandwidth with repeatedly saying the same thing to different posts
and instead, make a spool of all the posts, and reply to them in one _single_
message it would be MUSH appreciated.
Galen
Stephen Swann
Timothy Toner <than...@interaccess.com> wrote:
|In article <34j56u$9...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>,
|Thomas Farrell <tfar...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
|>Oh, by the way, I'd like to announce to the world at large that I will
|>be creating a new role playing game system.
|[...]
|>I intend to make it available on the
|>internet for free. I will probably copyright the material, and will then
|>make it available for free use.
|
|Sorry to be the crasher of your good will, but you can't have it both
|ways. Either it's 100% Copyrighted, or 100% Public Domain
He didn't say he would place it in the Public Domain.
There's a distinct legal difference between Public Domain and Freely
Redistributable. Freely Redistributable materials MAY be copyrighted.
--
Stephen Swann | Speak to me in many voices,
sw...@rock.concert.net | make them all sound like one... - BOC
Thomas Biskup
> >They were created by?
I'm not that sure that the name 'drow' was created by TSR. I believe to have
read somewhere, that drow originally were some kind of malign fairies... I
currently just can't remember where it was :-(
--
Thomas Biskup email to: bis...@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code."
Matthew Hickey
>most Aolers, but you are still wasting bandwidth by putting up your one
>sentance refutations of peoples points. If you could be so kind as to not
>waste the bandwidth with repeatedly saying the same thing to different posts
>and instead, make a spool of all the posts, and reply to them in one _single_
>message it would be MUSH appreciated.
He says the same damn thing because you complain about the same damn
thing over and over again. Ask the same question and you will receive the
same answer.
No, my defending of Winninger is not a sign of early senility or
disloyalty to the cause, just a response.
>Galen
Nightshade
Prophet of the Anti-T$R
Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
Leader of the Great Reformation
Ron
>> They were created by?
>...TSR.
>Rob Repp | InterNet: tsr...@aol.com
>Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mob...@mercury.mcs.com
>TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
The term "drow" might have been coined by TSR, but the idea
of a dark elf is in the public domain. Look at Wagner's Ring
Cycle for one ...
--
- ron
----------------------------oOO-(~)-OOo--------------------------------
mat...@uiuc.edu |o o|
rsm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ~~~~~
Michael Mezo
>>Winninger writes: ... Too damn much! Guy, you are at least more clueful than
>>most Aolers, but you are still wasting bandwidth by putting up your one
>>sentance refutations of peoples points. If you could be so kind as to not
>>waste the bandwidth with repeatedly saying the same thing to different posts
>>and instead, make a spool of all the posts, and reply to them in one _single_
>>message it would be MUSH appreciated.
>
> He says the same damn thing because you complain about the same damn
>thing over and over again. Ask the same question and you will receive the
>same answer.
>
to earlier today. You'll forgive me for the ignorance in my own posting.
>Nightshade
>Prophet of the Anti-T$R
>Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
>Leader of the Great Reformation
>Twit, and brownoser, trying to score brownie points after all his own flames.
>
>Email: MHi...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca
>
Ken Arromdee
Rob Repp <mob...@Mercury.mcs.com> wrote:
>> >>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
>> They were created by?
>...TSR.
They were not created by TSR either.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"You, a Decider?" --Romana "I decided not to." --The Doctor
Cisco Lopez-Fresquet
thorough and careful reading of the Players Handbook, I am unable to
answer it to my satisfaction.
QUESTION: The PH states that ANY combination of classes is legal for
a dual-classed character. Therefore, are the following classes combinations
allowed? (leaving aside the question of WHY someone would want to do so.)
1. Thief to Bard (I assume to get some basic thief skills first)
2. Fighter to Ranger (to get weapon specialization initially)
3. Cleric to Druid (can you worship more than one god at once?)
4. Specialist mage classes in any combination. i.e.
illusionist/transmuters, evoker/necromancers, etc.
Group number four is particularly interesting with regards to opposition
schools. What happens when a dual-class mages two schools are opposites?
sHould he keep two spell books? Should he not get either school? (Do
opposition schools add, or do they only apply seperately?)
I havent seen what happens in these cases addressed anywhere. I was
told that there was an official published AD&D product that presented a
multiple specialist mage, but I was unable to get find it.
So. Comments, anyone? I would be especially interested in any references
for/against that people can find.
- Cisco Lopez
bria...@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
========================================================
- born to be sigless and free -
Robert Blanchard
: The term "drow" might have been coined by TSR, but the idea
: of a dark elf is in the public domain. Look at Wagner's Ring
: Cycle for one ...
also look at Svartalfar from mythology.basicly the same thing just an
older reference, or you can look at the tolkiens orks, elves turned evil
by morgoth. Drow,Just another thing that T$R would like people think
sprang solely from their head of infinite creativity.
Robert
rob...@comtch.iea.com
Cisco Lopez-Fresquet
acceptable, becuse in order to post to it, we must allow TSR to CENSOR
our postings.
Please explain how the "free exchange of ideas" can exist in the
system they wish to provide.
Stephan Schulz
Of course either something is either copyrighted or public domain.
However, the holder of the copyright can give any rights he want to
anybody, including the general public. Look at the GNU general public
license for an example.
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as stsc...@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WinningerR
(Ron) writes:
>>>The term "drow" might have been coined by TSR, but the idea
of a dark elf is in the public domain. Look at Wagner's Ring
Cycle for one ...<<<
Well, in the "term" (along with the likeness, culture, etc.) lies the rub.
The "idea" of a galactic hero with a laser-pistol pre-dates STAR WARS, but
Lucas still "created" Luke Skywalker.
In any case, Wagner's elves were nothing like those of the AD&D game,
which seem to owe their lineage to Tolkien, who owes his to a vast number
of sources.
WinningerR
arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>>They were not created by TSR either.<<<
Then the big question remains: who did create them? I'm virtually certain
they were created by TSR.
Matthew Hickey
>> He says the same damn thing because you complain about the same damn
>>thing over and over again. Ask the same question and you will receive the
>>same answer.
>>
>Really, wow, I didn't notice my name amongst all those posts he was replying
>to earlier today. You'll forgive me for the ignorance in my own posting.
the same thing twenty times on thirty different threads about the same
subject. Case in point: Winninger's all caps declaration a while back about
T$R not threatening to close down this newsgroup.
>>Nightshade
>>Prophet of the Anti-T$R
>>Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
>>Leader of the Great Reformation
>>Twit, and brownoser, trying to score brownie points after all his own flames.
Huh? I am not trying to score 'brownie points', T$R can go
screaming into the core of Hell tied down with all those unsold "Women of
Fantasy Calendars"! Winniger and I may not agree on much (maybe nothing at
all). But all those flames I got taught me one thing, how brain-dead people
are if they flame on stupid reasons. If you don't understand that, then go
back and play your 390th level CN minotaur/Power Ranger- I don't have time
to deal with you.
>>Email: MHi...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca
Nightshade
Prophet of the Anti-T$R
Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
Leader of the Great Reformation
WinningerR
(Cisco Lopez-Fresquet) writes:
>>>TSR's "altruistic" act of setting up a site for us to post to is not
acceptable, becuse in order to post to it, we must allow TSR to CENSOR
our postings.<<<
When exactly did TSR say anything about "censoring" your ideas?
Even if TSR does screen "undesirable submissions" (something they've never
stated they'll do, BTW, all speculation notwithstanding), there's no
reason why you can't "genericize" your material using the guidelines they
so kindly furnished and then upload it to anyone in any way you desire.
Chris Anderson
> In article <34jm6a$2...@search01.news.aol.com>, winni...@aol.com
> (WinningerR) wrote:
>
> > In article <34ina7$a...@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vap...@cad.gatech.edu (S.
> > Keith Graham) writes:
> >
> > >>>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
> > house rules, or modules between any two people.
> >
> > Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
> > for his records from now on.<<<
> >
> > No, they specifically DIDN'T outlaw such use. "Any two people" is hardly
> > "the general public" just as "my gaming group" is hardly "the general
> > public."
> >
> > >>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
> >
> > They were created by?
>
> ...TSR.
Wrong. Dark elves are part of a number of myth cycles; "drow"
specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.
Chris
Jim Sisolak
CL> QUESTION: The PH states that ANY combination of classes is legal for
CL> a dual-classed character. Therefore, are the following classes combinations
CL> allowed? (leaving aside the question of WHY someone would want to do so.)
CL> 1. Thief to Bard (I assume to get some basic thief skills first)
CL> 2. Fighter to Ranger (to get weapon specialization initially)
Sure. Why not?
CL> 3. Cleric to Druid (can you worship more than one god at once?)
I'd never allow spells from more than one god at a time. You could make
this combo, but your former god may punish you for lack of devotion to the
cause - no spells at the least. Sure it's allowed, but the game is set up
so as to penalize you for doing it - you former god will not look kindly
upon the desertion.
CL> 4. Specialist mage classes in any combination. i.e.
CL> illusionist/transmuters, evoker/necromancers, etc.
It might just be for multiclass, but I believe this is explicitly forbidden
in the section on specialist mages. I wouldn't allow it, just because it
goes against the very idea of a "specialist." If you devote all your time
to one thing, then you can't also devote all your time to something else.
On second thought, perhaps I would allow it, but then I'd enforce all the
penalties of both classes (double the penalty on chance to know, double the
opposition schools) so that an illusionist/necromancer can't cast either
illusion or necromancy spells - pretty useless.
--
Jim Sisolak | University of Wisconsin - Madison
http://trans4.neep.wisc.edu/~sisolak | Department of Nuclear Engineering
Chris Anderson
> In article <34j3e6$g...@jaws.cs.hmc.edu>, mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu
> writes:
>
> >>>I don't get this, why can T$R copyright all of this material
> and say on the cover, that if you don't understand something, "make
> it up!" They keep on telling us that we can not distribute our own
> ideas, have fun with makeing up new rules, and have fun with the
> "roleplaying experence."<<<
>
> They are not saying you can't make up new rules, etc. They are saying that
> if you want to share these ideas with the "general public," you must
> follow their rules. In other words, they fully understand that half the
> fun of roleplaying games is sharing. Now, they're trying to work out ways
> that you can share without jeopardizing their rights.
>
> Why is MPGNet, AOL, and the promise to eventually bring "mirror sites" on
> line not enough?
Because the alternative is a general, unnamed threat that they can't
back up. I dislike a company who joins a group, decides they don't
like something, and starts throwing orders around with absolutely
nothing to back them up. It's bad PR at the least.
I used to be an ardent T$R supporter, but the T$R that I knew is dead.
It died when EGG left, I guess.
Back to M:tG. 'Bye, T$R.
Chris
verkuilen john v
>In article <34jm6a$2...@search01.news.aol.com>, winni...@aol.com
>(WinningerR) wrote:
>> In article <34ina7$a...@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vap...@cad.gatech.edu (S.
>> Keith Graham) writes:
>>
>> >>>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
>> house rules, or modules between any two people.
>>
>> Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
>> for his records from now on.<<<
>>
>> No, they specifically DIDN'T outlaw such use. "Any two people" is hardly
>> "the general public" just as "my gaming group" is hardly "the general
>> public."
>>
>> >>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
>>
>> They were created by?
>...TSR.
But the concept of a dark elf was not. Go check out Scandanavian myth
for an example (the "dock alvar" or something to that effect). Also, look
at the material on the fall of the Noldor in the _Silmarillion_. Even the
spider idiom is seen in Tolkien (Ungoliant and her children). So, provided
you don't rip off the drow as posited by TSR, you're OK. Just look in
ICE's RoleMaster or GW's Warhammer FRP for similar ideas done a different way. Or, for another historical example, look at the Unseelighe Court of
Celtic(?) myth. The core ideas are not original to EGG or TSR, just the
particular realization.
So, make your own. Just think about how much that would piss off the
little whiner who says, "But these monsters don't work that way in the
book!" or "Can I play a drow, can I, can I?, please?" <evil DM grin>
I had a DM who twisted the dark elves around a lot and it was great fun.
--
Jay Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"Paradise is just like where you are right now, only much, much better."
--Laurie Anderson, "Home of the Brave"
c_k...@cc.colorado.edu
>
>1. Thief to Bard (I assume to get some basic thief skills first)
Absolutely.
>2. Fighter to Ranger (to get weapon specialization initially)
Certainly.
>3. Cleric to Druid (can you worship more than one god at once?)
Mmmm, it gets tricky. I would say that Druid is not actually a separate
*class* from Cleric; just a priest of nature. (At least, that's how I view
them in my world.) Therefore, a 5th-level LG Cleric who wanted to become a
Druid wouldn't start over as a 1st-level Druid; instead he'd change his
alignment to Neutral (and suffer the appropriate penalties for that), and
become a 5th-level Druid.
Depending on how you view gods in your campaign, this may or may not be
acceptable. In mine, I would see it as one favored worshipper having a severe
change of faith. The old god would certainly turn his back on that individual
(thus the alignment change penalties), but the new would embrace him, and
bestow as much spell-casting ability, etc. as possible upon his new champion.
>4. Specialist mage classes in any combination. i.e.
> illusionist/transmuters, evoker/necromancers, etc.
Check the specialist rules in PHB2 carefully. I believe it does prohibit
specializing twice. If I'm wrong on that, then I see no reason why a mage
couldn't specialize in any combination.
> Group number four is particularly interesting with regards to opposition
>schools. What happens when a dual-class mages two schools are opposites?
>sHould he keep two spell books? Should he not get either school? (Do
>opposition schools add, or do they only apply seperately?)
Keep in mind that the new specialist would be unable to use any of his old
skills until exceeding the old experience level. Two spell books; why not?
Do opposition schools add? What do you mean by "add"? If you mean, would he
have greater access to spells, certainly (but remember that he operates as a
specialist of the old school *at his old level*).
This is to say: a 3rd-level illusionist switches to 1st-level transmuter.
Until reaching 4th-level as a transmuter, he may cast no spell unavailable to
him as a transmuter. His old spell books might be of some help, but remember
that he could only cast 1st-level spells until reaching 3rd-level as a
transmuter. If he cast a 2nd-level spell, he'd get no experience for that
encounter, and only half X.P. for the adventure.
Upon reaching 4th-level, however, he would once again be able to cast
illusionist spells at no penalty, but (and this is the rub) ONLY AS A 3rd-LEVEL
ILLUSIONIST. He would, however, be able to memorize extra spells (though I
could see a DM ruling against this; I wouldn't -- he's paid a high price for
the privilege), two first (plus one illusion spell) and one second (plus
another illusion spell).
Tim Skirvin
>In article <34j56u$9...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>, tfar...@lynx.dac.neu.edu
>(Thomas Farrell) writes:
>>>>I feel that I will have to think it over again. I'm not sure I want to
>use your game world if I can't write my own additions to it and give them
>to my friends.<<<
>Unless your friends constitute the "general public" no one ever said you
>couldn't give them your additions to the Realms. Let's be reasonable here.
My friends aren't the general public now.
Then who ARE they?
Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period.
(And you wonder why I'm boycotting.)
- Tim Skirvin
--
------Tim Skirvin (tski...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu)------
"Now I realize that technically speaking that's only one flaw but I
thought it was such a big one it was worth mentioning twice."
-- Kryten, Red Dwarf (Holoship)
Alan Kaiser
>>3. Cleric to Druid (can you worship more than one god at once?)
>Mmmm, it gets tricky. I would say that Druid is not actually a separate
>*class* from Cleric; just a priest of nature. (At least, that's how I view
>them in my world.) Therefore, a 5th-level LG Cleric who wanted to become a
>Druid wouldn't start over as a 1st-level Druid; instead he'd change his
>alignment to Neutral (and suffer the appropriate penalties for that), and
>become a 5th-level Druid.
> Depending on how you view gods in your campaign, this may or may not be
>acceptable. In mine, I would see it as one favored worshipper having a severe
>change of faith. The old god would certainly turn his back on that individual
>(thus the alignment change penalties), but the new would embrace him, and
>bestow as much spell-casting ability, etc. as possible upon his new champion.
I would tend to agree that a Druid is not a separate class from a
cleric. The alignment change would certainly come with a sizable
penalty (I'm sure this would really piss off the clerics former god).
In my world, Druids do not have a "god" as other religions have. They
are priests of nature and draw the power to cast their spells from the
"energy", for lack of a better term, around them. The special training
of Druids involves how to tap into this energy and shape it to create
specific effects. Low level druids are not able to shape the energy as
well as higher level druids and so can not cast as many spells. If
this is how you see it then you might rule that priest and druid are
different enough to allow the switch but the god that the character
dumped would probably not be willing to grant spells to the
individual.
If the reference in the previous post to a separate *class* is true
then none of the four multi-class situations would be valid in my
opinion (thief to bard, fighter to ranger, priest to druid and one
mage school to another). Does the PHB state that multi-classed
characters must switch to a different class? In my view, there are
only four classes; warrior, priest, mage and thief. Therefore, none of
the above mentioned multi-class situations would be changes of a
"class". Anyone know for sure on the *different class* aspect of this?
Hope this helps
Alan
alka...@eden.rutgers.edu
Michael Mezo
>>> He says the same damn thing because you complain about the same damn
>>>thing over and over again. Ask the same question and you will receive the
>>>same answer.
>>>
>>Really, wow, I didn't notice my name amongst all those posts he was replying
>>to earlier today. You'll forgive me for the ignorance in my own posting.
> This wasn't directed personally at you. Just at everyone who say
>the same thing twenty times on thirty different threads about the same
>subject. Case in point: Winninger's all caps declaration a while back about
>T$R not threatening to close down this newsgroup.
>
you have there. But I'm not talking 'you' personally there, not if 'you' might
heavens forbid, flame me for it.
'You' should learn how to direct your topic better than, if 'you' are going
to respond to someone, tell them ''you' complain about the same damn thing...'
I guess I am just a novice with 'your' english language...
>
>>>Nightshade
>>>Prophet of the Anti-T$R
>>>Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
>>>Leader of the Great Reformation
>>>Twit, and brownoser, trying to score brownie points after all his own flames.
>
> Huh? I am not trying to score 'brownie points', T$R can go
>screaming into the core of Hell tied down with all those unsold "Women of
>Fantasy Calendars"! Winniger and I may not agree on much (maybe nothing at
>all). But all those flames I got taught me one thing, how brain-dead people
>are if they flame on stupid reasons. If you don't understand that, then go
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
'You' don't do things like that? Hrm... what was that bt above? I'ld call it a
flame for my telling Winninger to reply to one message only if he's going to
essentailly say the same thing repeatedly... 'you' then accused me of saying
the same damn thing repeated... did 'you' really learn anything from your
flames?
>back and play your 390th level CN minotaur/Power Ranger- I don't have time
>to deal with you.
>
Ooooh, I forgot, you don't flame, 'you' learned better than to do that. I love
how you immediately assumed I would play a 300+ level humanoid character...
What was our first clue, hrm... perhaps that I wanted people to show some
sense and not reply to 5+ posts with essentially the same statement?
Wait... that doesnt make sense... or does it make perfect sense to 'you'?
>
>>>Email: MHi...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca
>
>
>Nightshade
>Prophet of the Anti-T$R
>Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
>Leader of the Great Reformation
>Twit flamer, with pronoun trouble.
>
>Email: MHi...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca
Galen
Pascal Meunier
mob...@Mercury.mcs.com (Rob Repp) wrote:
> PLEASE REPOST - OFFICIAL CORPORATE STATEMENT
>
>
> >REGARDING TRADEMARKED AND COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL USED ON-LINE:
> TSR is now an active member of the on-line gaming community. Since
> Day-One, TSR products and artwork have been developed by creative people
> employed or hired by TSR. This has resulted in the creation of an
> extensive line of products, identities, names, rules, game mechanics,
> logos, and standards of quality, to name a few. The gaming products,
> novels, and publications are designed to encourage resourcefulness and
> creativity in play. All of these created properties are owned by TSR
> through national trademarks and copyrights which protect their publication
> electronically or published on paper. When they are published by anyone
> other than TSR, Inc. or their licensees, this publication becomes an
> infringement to TSR trademarks and copyrights.
>
Let me make an analogy: when Microsoft gives you a license to use Word and
create documents with it, they don't have any copyrights on what you write.
Why do you think that by using AD&D mechanics you have copyrights on what
we write? You have a copyright on the game mechanics, but not on what is
produced with them.
When you published the game mechanics with the explicit purpose of having
people design their own adventures, you thereby gave them permission to
publish them. Imagine if those who have the copyright on the PCR reaction
had automatically a copyright on any gene amplified by that technique! You
are nuts.
Pascal Meunier
Mark Nockleby
(Tim Skirvin) writes:
> Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
>then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
>distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period.
My understanding of copyright law is that TSR retains the rights over
their copyrighted works (which include the rights to creating derivative
works). If TSR chooses to give players of the game the ability
to create derivative works for use in playing the game at home
and at local gaming clubs, then players can do that. If TSR chooses
to give people the option of creating derivative works and placing them
on an internet archive (such as ftp.mpgn.com) as long as a disclaimer
is stamped on the derivative work, then people are allowed to do just that.
If TSR chooses not to give people the option of publishing derivatives
works willy nilly, then I guess people with just have to live with it.
Isn't that what a copyright is all about? Isn't copyright the right
to say how and where and who may publish or copy copyrighted works
and their derivatives?
-mark.
--
"But I like to think that when something disturbs me that it is important"
-- Steven Jesse Bernstein.
n...@noether.ucsc.edu
mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu
>
>> Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
>>then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
>>distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period.
>
>My understanding of copyright law is that TSR retains the rights over
>their copyrighted works (which include the rights to creating derivative
>works). If TSR chooses to give players of the game the ability
>to create derivative works for use in playing the game at home
>and at local gaming clubs, then players can do that. If TSR chooses
>to give people the option of creating derivative works and placing them
>on an internet archive (such as ftp.mpgn.com) as long as a disclaimer
>is stamped on the derivative work, then people are allowed to do just that.
>If TSR chooses not to give people the option of publishing derivatives
>works willy nilly, then I guess people with just have to live with it.
>Isn't that what a copyright is all about? Isn't copyright the right
>to say how and where and who may publish or copy copyrighted works
>and their derivatives?
>
>-mark.
Doe! This is what I was hopeing people didn't say.
This is not about T$R having the copyright on they're piece of
work. This is about our piece of work! If we created it, and have some
dim slight glimer (just a tad) of T$R's Fighter class, then do they get
to turn us in, 'cause of that?! No I think not! Let me remind all of
you T$R said it themselves. "If you don't understand something, make
it up!" When you say something like this, then it could aply to
anything. "I don't understand why this spell wasn't in the game."
Companies like Coca~Cola don't get mad when other magazines
mention the word Coca~Cola. Why should T$R feel the same way?
I bet that some, (may be most) of they're ideas don't even
come from the "game-makers" themselves. They probably came from some
readers who mailed they're complaints\wants\needs, in to T$R. T$R
then in reply, said "hey! what a good idea." And then something like
kits were formed.
T$R even said themselves that they got a lot of info. from readers
and that's how they created 2 ed.
I think that us posting ANYTHING up on the net isn't gona' make
that much diffrence wheter you are going to buy anything of T$Rs or not.
I mean even if read someones comments of planescape, that isn't gona'
make that much diffrence, because if you didn't have internet you would
have used some magazine to make your choice. (Like that DRAGON MAG.).
I don't want to "jump all over" T$R or anything, it's just that
they have goten a little to big for they're britches. They think that
they can push around people, but they can not.
Deep down inside, they know sueing everyone isn't going to make a
diffrence. Pushing around people like us isn't going to make a diffrence
anyway. They know we can distribute stuff, with out they're permition.
Even if they are able to get a hold of this copyright, that would just turn
them into "little police-men". They would have to go sueing anyone who
did anything that infringed on they're copyright. And then that would just
turn BAD. They wouldn't be a real roleplaying corperation, they would just
be something like a dead broke company in CP 2020 (well not really).
In the end, they (T$R) knows that they are going to lose some how.
So why bother!
A said reader of T$R formerly TSR before they got 2nd ed.:
;(
/mAtT/
/
(mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu)
--
< < < < < < < <|"I think about all the ways I've screwed up and
< < < < < < < < | what I'd give for one clear chance to wipe the
< < < < < < < < | slate clean. To dig my way out of the numb, grey
< < < < <| hell I've made of my life." -Dwight, Frank Miller
mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu
>
> RE: COPYRIGHT POLICY
>
> Wed, 07 Sep 1994 22:15:49 -0500
> Purdue University
> Newsgroups:
> rec.games.frp.dnd
> Reply to newsgroup(s)
> References:
> <mobius-0609...@mobius.pr.mcs.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CUT HERE CUT HERE CUT HERE CUT HERE CUT HERE
Oh my gosh!!! Some one who is soooo right!!!! I havn't seen some
one that is this right in a long time!!!! You don't know how right this
guy is!
This guy has told the basic fact of what T$R really did.
Hey T$R cut here and paste this on all of your frigerators!!!
a person who needed to blow off a LOT of steam....
/mAtT/
/
(mbos...@chs.cusd.claremont.edu)
PS: IF you were wondering why I wrote CUT HERE so many times.... It was
so T$R needs to be told the same thing over, and over, and over, and over,
and over.
PPS: IF you were wondering why I wrote CUT HERE so many times.... It was
so T$R needs to be told the same thing over, and over, and over, and over,
and over.
WinningerR
>>>Wrong. Dark elves are part of a number of myth cycles; "drow"
specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.<<<
Not trying to flame here, I'm just very interested in this subject. Does
anyone know which Welsh/Celtic works speak of "drow?"
WinningerR
(Tim Skirvin) writes:
>>>Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period. <<<
Once again, the policy says no such thing. Yes your friends are members of
the general public, but they hardly CONSTITUTE the general public.
If you have a problem with this concept, than you have a problem with
copyright laws in general. Are you arguing that there should be NO
copyrights?
WinningerR
pmeu...@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu (Pascal Meunier) writes:
>>>Let me make an analogy: when Microsoft gives you a license to use Word
and
create documents with it, they don't have any copyrights on what you
write.
Why do you think that by using AD&D mechanics you have copyrights on what
we write? You have a copyright on the game mechanics, but not on what is
produced with them.<<<
Uhhh, this again.
The Microsoft Word analogy just doesn't hold up. There are no characters
in Microsoft Word, no stories, no unique locales.
If you use any of TSR's proprietary characters, stories, or unique
locales, you are violating their copyrights (and an "umber hulk" is a
character, BTW -- though things like elves and dwarves are clearly owned
by the general public). If you want to upload such material, you must
include TSR's disclaimer.
If, however, your upload doesn't use TSR's proprietary characters, etc.,
forget the disclaimer and the whole policy! In this case, you should
probably resort to the various strategies TSR's lawyers offered to
disguise the source of your game mechanics, etc. It may or may not be
illegal to ignore this advice, but why bother? If your reasonably
effective, anybody who reads your material will be able to translate it
into D&D effortlessly.
WinningerR
writes:
>>>This is not about T$R having the copyright on they're piece of
work. This is about our piece of work! If we created it, and have some
dim slight glimer (just a tad) of T$R's Fighter class, then do they get
to turn us in, 'cause of that?! No I think not! Let me remind all of
you T$R said it themselves. "If you don't understand something, make
it up!" When you say something like this, then it could aply to
anything. "I don't understand why this spell wasn't in the game."<<<
TSR never said you needed to place the disclaimer on every single piece of
writing in which a fantasy fighter appears.
>>>Companies like Coca~Cola don't get mad when other magazines
mention the word Coca~Cola. Why should T$R feel the same way?<<<
That's not true, actually. There are times when magazines mention "Coca
Cola" and makes the company very mad. TSR's reaction pales next to what
you'd see from Coca Cola if anyone tried to send their secret formulas,
etc. over the Internet.
How exactly is TSR "pushing us around?" By allowing us to upload files
containing their property?
WinningerR
(verkuilen john v) writes:
>>>But the concept of a dark elf was not.<<<
True, but you can't copyright a "concept." This is a good illustration of
the impact of TSR's new policy. If you want to write an adventure about
"dark elves," there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. Forget the
disclaimer, the restrictions, everything. If, however, you want to write
an adventure about "drow," you must play by TSR's rules.
Truls Parsson
Dark elves are common in mythology and maybe used by anyone. On this everyone agrees
(as far as I've seen)
The interesting question.
Where does the name Drow come from?
I thought this was TSR but Chris Anderson writes:
>"drow"
>specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.
This rings a small muted bell. Do you have any reference to this or is it from you're memory.
- The Troll
Truls Parsson
> My friends aren't the general public now.
> Then who ARE they?
You're pals :-). Seriously they are not the general public. If you made a statement to the general public you wouldn't make it to a couple of friends. Who constitutes the general public varies from case to case or more specifically how many people and what kind. A gaming group of a dosen players doesn't constitute the general public while the internet does.
> Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
>then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
>distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period.
Not necessarily, and definetly not in this case.
Kendall Bullen writes:
> RR> Don't use monsters, spells, etc. that were created by TSR. Create and
> RR> name your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their
> RR> actual names backward for uniqueness.
>What, they encounter a nogard instead of a dragon? I don't think so. Talk
>about a stupid idea. Why spell a monster from history, legend, or reality
>backwards? You're really reaching now, TSR.
I think Mr Repp meant you should spell TSR monsters backwards like diogla (algoid),
not dragons, goblins and nilbogs.
Eco ergo elk
- The Troll
Kendall Bullen
RR> PLEASE REPOST - OFFICIAL CORPORATE STATEMENT
...
RR> HOW TO CREATE GENERIC MATERIAL SOME TIPS:
...
RR> Don't use monsters, spells, etc. that were created by TSR. Create and
RR> name your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their
RR> actual names backward for uniqueness.
What, they encounter a nogard instead of a dragon? I don't think so. Talk
about a stupid idea. Why spell a monster from history, legend, or reality
backwards? You're really reaching now, TSR.
RR> are free to publish anywhere when you specifically do not rely on AD&D
RR> game mechanics or other material from TSR.
Does that includes not publishing new monsters in TSR's "format" (as it were)?
I think this outrageous claim is still unclear, even with these postings from
you, which by the way are appreciated.
RR> Please let us know. We plan to be electronically publishing a lot of
RR> great things in the future for your gaming use.
But that can't be uploaded elsewhere, I presume?
RR> (R) and TM designate trademarks owned by TSR, Inc.
I fail to see where these symbols occur; does TSR then *not* hold trademarks on
'AD&D' or 'TSR'?
Kendall ;)
Kendall Bullen
> Or, if a monster or spell is used in several different game systems,
> this is a good indication that it is not owned by TSR. For example, Drow
> were created by TSR, but a hydra is a known legendary monster and is
> public domain.
SK> Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.
I'm curious, who did 'create' the Drow? Are you talking about the concept
(hardly original with TSR) or the name ('Drow')?
Kendall
Kendall Bullen
TR> This question still remains: Does the "general public" have the right
TR> to produce software (from char. generators to, let's say, a Hypertext
TR> DM's Guide) and distribute it providing it's stored on a licensed
TR> site?
I don't think the question still remains, considering the fact that Rob Repp's
posting mentioned text and software, and even mentioned where you should put
the disclaimer for software (somewhere that the user sees it when they start
the program, tho' I wouldn't do that, just put it in the 'about' box like the
mpgn.com guy suggests -- otherwise, having something pop up makes it annoyware,
IMHO).
Kendall
S. Keith Graham
Actually, I may be wrong on the name "Drow". "Dark Elves", in about
20 different species, including the spider motif, is taken directly
from legend. (And poison use, fear of the light, etc. are also in some
of the legends.)
The actual name "Drow" has been used in several Live RPGs and other places
to refer to the "dark elves", but I'm not sure if the actual name was
originated with TSR or not. I'll try to check an OED (unless someone
beats me to it and posts) and see if Drow are mentioned.. That's a fairly
definitive answer. :-)
Keith Graham
(who will try to admit when he's wrong)
vap...@cad.gatech.edu
Kendall Bullen
WR> work out ways that you can share without jeopardizing their rights.
Yawn. As many have pointed out, their rights wouldn't be jeopardized by
derivative works -- only the amount they could get in later suits, as damages.
WR> Why is MPGNet, AOL, and the promise to eventually bring "mirror sites"
WR> on line not enough?
Some people are never satisfied.
OTOH, thinking that two sites (one not ftp'able) and the 'promise of more'
answers every question and concern is pretty naive.
I guess no one's perfect in this bunch o' interactions regarding the Big Bad
Company and the Evil Immature Netter, eh? :)
Kendall
Kendall Bullen
TT> Sorry to be the crasher of your good will, but you can't have it both
TT> ways. Either it's 100% Copyrighted, or 100% Public Domain. In
TT> essence, it means that once it's in the public domain, you have NO
TT> control on how it's used. TSR could paste it in a book (don't worry,
TT> they won't) and make a zillion bucks (look at all the freeware
TT> distributors. In effect, they're just making the copy available), and
TT> you'd be powerless.
I guess you've never heard of or read the GNU Public License (GPL), or Copyleft
as I think it's sometimes called. It's copyrighted, but it is freely
distributable and available, with source code for you to play with. However, I
think that any derivative stuff must also use the GPL and follow the same
guidelines as far as availability/distribution/sources/etc.. So, Thomas
Farrell <tfar...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> could use that route.
(I may have messed up a detail or two -- I'm sure I'll get corrected if I did.
:)
Kendall
dk...@cas.org
>I have a question I have never seen answered anywhere, and after a
>thorough and careful reading of the Players Handbook, I am unable to
>answer it to my satisfaction.
>
>QUESTION: The PH states that ANY combination of classes is legal for
>
Yes, as long as the character's alignment is non-lawful and partially
neutral and the character had at least a 17 dexterity and charisma.
>2. Fighter to Ranger (to get weapon specialization initially)
Yes, as long as the fighter was good aligned and had at least a 17
in his strength, dexterity, and wisdom.
>3. Cleric to Druid (can you worship more than one god at once?)
Yes, as long as the cleric had at least a 17 in his wisdom and
charisma and was neutral in his/her alignment.
Note, that this does not necessarilly mean that the character has
to worship more than one god, many gods have both clerics and
druids as priests. But multiple gods are possible, especially in
pantheonistic religions.
>4. Specialist mage classes in any combination. i.e.
> illusionist/transmuters, evoker/necromancers, etc.
Yes, this is allowed, but if your new class has your old class as
an oposition school, then you will not regain your old specialist
spellcasting abilities once your exceed your 1st class's level.
> Group number four is particularly interesting with regards to opposition
>schools. What happens when a dual-class mages two schools are opposites?
>sHould he keep two spell books? Should he not get either school? (Do
>opposition schools add, or do they only apply seperately?)
He gets the new school and loses the old one, see above.
> I havent seen what happens in these cases addressed anywhere. I was
>told that there was an official published AD&D product that presented a
>multiple specialist mage, but I was unable to get find it.
These are addressed in the PHB.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
]dne Brunborg
> PLEASE REPOST - OFFICIAL CORPORATE STATEMENT
>
>
> TSR is now an active member of the on-line gaming community. Since
> Day-One, TSR products and artwork have been developed by creative people
> employed or hired by TSR. This has resulted in the creation of an
> extensive line of products, identities, names, rules, game mechanics,
> logos, and standards of quality, to name a few. The gaming products,
> novels, and publications are designed to encourage resourcefulness and
> creativity in play. All of these created properties are owned by TSR
> through national trademarks and copyrights which protect their publication
> electronically or published on paper. When they are published by anyone
> other than TSR, Inc. or their licensees, this publication becomes an
> infringement to TSR trademarks and copyrights.
NOTE: "national trademarks and copyrights". This means that if you are outside
the US (like here in Norway) TSR can't touch you. Right? If so, that removes the
disclaimer from MY works.
[snip]
>
> Don't use monsters, spells, etc. that were created by TSR. Create and name
> your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their actual
> names backward for uniqueness.
What monsters have TSR actually created? Give us the list of monsters _created_
by TSR and not derived from legends and mythology (see below).
>
> Or, if a monster or spell is used in several different game systems, this
> is a good indication that it is not owned by TSR. For example, Drow were
> created by TSR, but a hydra is a known legendary monster and is public
> domain.
Drow appears in Norse legends as "Svart-alvar" (meaning Black or Dark Elf). That
is 1000 years before TSR (give or take some hundred years) and is NOT created by
TSR. True, the difference is great but the idea is used before so the Drow is NOT
created by TSR.
[snip]
>
> Rob Repp | InterNet: tsr...@aol.com
> Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mob...@mercury.mcs.com
> TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
> __________________________________ | GEnie: TSR.Online AOL: TSR Inc
> All opinions are my own, not TSR's | 414-248-3625 Fax 414-248-0389
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Who do speak for TSR? If you are, mr. Repp, please remove this disclaimer from
your .sig. If not, you may risk to not be taken seriously.
One question from "GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT":
The disclaimer says (among other):"...The item is for personal use only and may
not be published or distributed except through MPGNet or TSR."
I do not want to give TSR publishing rights to MY work. After all, I don't want
MY line of product to be messed up by TSR. Besides, if TSR reads my stuff and
decides to put it in their DRAGON mag, what's in it for me?
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ o + No matter how subtle the wizard, a +
+ Adne Brunborg + knife in the shoulder blades will +
+ brun...@alkymi.unit.no + seriously cramp his style. +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
D.J.S. Damerell
Silveras <silv...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <34ina7$a...@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vap...@cad.gatech.edu (S.
>Keith Graham) writes:
>>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
>>house rules, or modules between any two people.
>>
>>Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
>>for his records from now on.
>
>the door on their fingers. Very adult.
T$R isn't making a bloody overture. T$R has decided to slam us with
unnecessary restrictions, and the fact that those restrictions aren't
quite all-enveloping is not an overture. If I decide to burn down your
house (because I happen to be legally entitled to, and so I might as
well), the fact that I let you get your car out the garage first isn't an
overture.
> Read more closely; they have been talking about public posting to
>general access areas. No mention of limitations on direct exchanges
>between individuals or within a private group has been made.
I presume that their statement was one which could be read that way. They
won't enforce it, but the fact that they feel the need to make statements
that imply they could...
> Gosh, I'm proud to be part of the in-line community; so open-minded
>and fair...
> Silv...@aol.com
Well, AOL doesn't really count as part of the on-line community, so I
presume in-line means toeing the company line...
--
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. Green Card flames to: lca...@win.net
djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk RL: Trinity College, Cambridge. |___|
WOODHAL2.WAD on infant2 Real Soon Now. Don't download WOODHALL... | | |
D.J.S. Damerell
>In article <mobius-0609...@mobius.pr.mcs.net>,
>Rob Repp <mob...@Mercury.mcs.com> wrote:
>>Don't use monsters, spells, etc. that were created by TSR. Create and name
>>your own. Draw on history, legend or reality even spell their actual
>>names backward for uniqueness.
>Word elves.
>Htlol, demon spider queen.
>Retsnimle.
>Hey, this is easy.
Umm. Nedru'od Tzzird - well, the first name's OK, but the second name
sounds like another kind of wet weather. Since Suedomsa isn't in AD&D
anymore, I suppose we can spell him how we please. But can you imagine
attacking with a Noops-rae Niamehob?
Truls Parsson
>NOTE: "national trademarks and copyrights". This means that if you are outside
>the US (like here in Norway) TSR can't touch you. Right? If so, that removes the
>disclaimer from MY works.
You can buy AD&D in Norway, guess if they got their TM & (c) in Norway. Anyway Norway
has signed a convention (forgot it's name) which means that they have copyright.
>Drow appears in Norse legends as "Svart-alvar" (meaning Black or Dark Elf). That
>is 1000 years before TSR (give or take some hundred years) and is NOT created by
>TSR. True, the difference is great but the idea is used before so the Drow is NOT
>created by TSR.
The question isn't about dark elves it's about drows, the difference is the name so
Svart-alfer doesn't prove you right. Though the name drow may not have been created by TSR as can be seen by other posts.
-The Troll
Brandon Gillespie
I was about to say that, but yes, you are correct. TSR created the term 'drow'
to refer to dark elves. So the answer it quite simple, don't call them drow,
call them dark elves, everybody still knows what you are talking about.
--
/\ Brandon Gillespie <a href="http://www.usu.edu/~brandon/">me</a> /\
() An Interactive RFC Index: http://www.usu.edu/~brandon/RFC/ ()
\/ "Luke, at that speed do you think you'll be able to pull out in time?" \/
Rob Repp
> According to Rob Repp <mob...@Mercury.mcs.com>:
> > In article <34jm6a$2...@search01.news.aol.com>, winni...@aol.com
> > (WinningerR) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <34ina7$a...@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vap...@cad.gatech.edu (S.
> > > Keith Graham) writes:
> > >
> > > >>>Note that they just explicitly outlawed distribution of characters,
> > > house rules, or modules between any two people.
> > >
> > > Thank you T$R. I'll tell my DM that he can't have a copy of my character
> > > for his records from now on.<<<
> > >
> > > No, they specifically DIDN'T outlaw such use. "Any two people" is hardly
> > > "the general public" just as "my gaming group" is hardly "the general
> > > public."
> > >
> > > >>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
> > >
> > > They were created by?
> >
> > ...TSR.
>
> Wrong. Dark elves are part of a number of myth cycles; "drow"
> specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.
>
> Chris
Get a lawyer to do a trademark search for you, or maybe try the TM/(C)
database on Compuserve. I think you might be mistaken.
Rob Repp
(Ron) wrote:
> >> >>>Drow were not created by T$R, just as trivia.<<<
> >> They were created by?
> >...TSR.
> >Rob Repp | InterNet: tsr...@aol.com
> >Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mob...@mercury.mcs.com
> >TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
>
> The term "drow" might have been coined by TSR, but the idea
> of a dark elf is in the public domain. Look at Wagner's Ring
> Cycle for one ...
>
> --
> - ron
> ----------------------------oOO-(~)-OOo--------------------------------
> mat...@uiuc.edu |o o|
> rsm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ~~~~~
I think that's kinda' the point, right? I mean, everything is a variation
on a theme. Some variations have value, and others don't. Vampires, for
example, have led to umpteen defensable (Sp?) trademarks.
Does anyone know of a remailer with a spell checker in it? Sort of like
anon.penet.fi, but for spelling fixes instead of header stripping?
WinningerR
(Kendall Bullen) writes:
>>>What, they encounter a nogard instead of a dragon? I don't think so.
Talk
about a stupid idea. Why spell a monster from history, legend, or reality
backwards? You're really reaching now, TSR.<<<
Read the post a little closer. It says "don't use monsters CREATED BY TSR.
Draw upon history." In other words, you can use any historical monster(s)
without a problem. Historical monsters include: dragons, ogres, pegasii,
goblin, elves, dwarves, giants, vampires, leucrotta, etc. Non-historical
monsters (ie. those created by TSR) include: rust monsters, beholders,
drow (probably, someone is trying to dispute this), draconians, githyanki,
etc.
WinningerR
Brunborg) writes:
>>>NOTE: "national trademarks and copyrights". This means that if you are
outside
the US (like here in Norway) TSR can't touch you. Right?<<<
No. Norway signed the Berne convention.
>>>Drow appears in Norse legends as "Svart-alvar" (meaning Black or Dark
Elf). That
is 1000 years before TSR (give or take some hundred years) and is NOT
created by
TSR. True, the difference is great but the idea is used before so the Drow
is NOT
created by TSR.<<<
No. As everyone was so fond of saying in this space two-three weeks ago,
you cannot copyright an "idea," just the particular expression of that
idea. "Drow" are TSR's particular expression of the dark elf idea. If you
want to write an adventure featuring Svart-alvar, you needn't worry about
the disclaimer or TSR at all. If, however, you want to write about "drow,"
you must include the disclaimer and follow TSR's rules.
WinningerR
Damerell) writes:
>>>T$R isn't making a bloody overture. T$R has decided to slam us with
unnecessary restrictions,<<<
So many have said something like this then refused to elaborate. Again,
what are these "unnecessary restrictions?" How do they differ from what
other companies require?
Michael Mezo
>>>>Companies like Coca~Cola don't get mad when other magazines
>mention the word Coca~Cola. Why should T$R feel the same way?<<<
>
>That's not true, actually. There are times when magazines mention "Coca
>Cola" and makes the company very mad. TSR's reaction pales next to what
>you'd see from Coca Cola if anyone tried to send their secret formulas,
>etc. over the Internet.
You couldnt be more wrong.... Coca Cola's 'secret' formula has been out in the
public domain for a LONG time. It's in a book, either Big Secrets or Bigger
Secrets and if necessary I'll go get you ISBN numbers and page references.
We could post the formula till we were blue in the face if we wanted, they
can't and wouldnt do crap.
My whole objection to this stuff, has nothing to do with their desire to
protect the Forgotten Realms (tm) or Dark Sun (tm) because those _are_ unique
worlds created by TSR. Writing our own adventures though, based wherever
else we may damn well please, is free game. We are _encouraged_ to do such
in the opening pages of the DMG. Thats what has me angry, their assertion that
we cannot write and share our own adventures based in our own worlds using
'their' system. The Microsoft Word analogy here IS correct. TSR created a
system, and their unique presentation of the system is copywritten but the
use of that system is not restricted when an express invitation to do just
what we are doing, writing our own adventures, is included in that system.
TSR just senses a 'cash cow' in the net, and is working very hard to corner
a market on it... Well, to tell you quite frankly, if that is their goal, I'll
do everything I can to make sure that they CAN'T touch internet, EVER. Internet
is an establishment for the free exchange of ideas, it is not a commercial
venture, and commercial agencies do NOT support it. IF TSR wants to create it's
_own_ net, and get worldwide distribution that way, FINE, but they cannot use
internet for their own personal/commercial gain or well just have to do to
them what was done to Canter & Seigal.
Further -- I personally was insensed by the announcment from MPGn's site admin
stating the tentative policies. I am assuming these were given him by TSR as
he made the claim they were and as MPGn IS the site, I'ld sy that was pretty
valid...
HIS FIRST POINT was that internet gaming would be allowed but we were not
allowed to 'log' those sessions, nor were we allowed to post logs of those
sessions. I guess TSR's assumption is that we can't record our fun, nor share
it with other people, cause it will somehow impinge on their rights...
Fan Fiction? Out the door, if TSR decides it wants to take a chunk of whatever
money you may make when you do publish a story about your own campaign. All they
would need to do is find suitable proof that you played Dungeons and Dragons(tm)
and they could then make a 'reasonable claim' that your work is based upon their
system and thus derivative.
Yes, it is reducto ad absudium, but it is also the express feeling they are
_trying_ to give us. So much talk, especially from you has gone to TSR's
'good intentions' and 'good faith efforts' and yet, their policies are able
to be reduced to very precise wording which gives TSR exclusive rights to most
anything that may come out of our heads.
AND they are doing it on a _free_ net. Let them strnagle AOL, I don't care and
I would be GLAD to see AOL throttled, but Internet, is an entity made up of
_privately_ owned or _publically_ owned machines and it is NOT a commercial
venue.
I'ld suggest to Mr Rob Repp and any other TSR flunky to visit all the other
newsgroups related to other game systems. If they are so niave as to not be
able to look up the names and subscribe to them, I am sure there are many
folks who will willingly show them how.
TSR -- Read those groups and get a clue as to what the _industry_ standard is.
And, keep in mind, you no longer set the industry standard. You've been outpaced
in 'development' though perhps not in 'production'. BUT, your products are now
little more than directly attributable knockoffs of other work put out by
other game companies, that become popular and so you make a TSR version,
capitalize on your larger name recognition and distribution network and squeeze
the originators of fresh and original ideas out.
Whats _TRULY_ annoying, is you have created products like Al-Qadim (Which I like
BTW) and will now insist to hold an exclusive hold on it. If I put upon the
net an adventure, designed with Shaharazad (sp) in mind, and base it upon the
1001 and one nights, you'll claim I am violating _your_ rights.
In this respect, I would say the only company we could rightly make TSR
analogous to, would be Disney, which is known for these predatory and rather
nasty tactics to get a hold on things that have been the 'publics' for
generations. Heaven forbid you write a story about undersea folk, and have one
young female mermaid with red hair...
My suggestion to all of internet gaming....
Let's establish our own sites, our machines at home if we have them. They
do NOT need internet connectivity. NOW, on your machine, store copies of those
net-books you like, adventures and spells... NOW, when someone posts to
rec.games.frp.fantasy (He've got to drop the TSR name and use our own we
dont want to advertise for those bastards) that they are looking for something
we'll have to now email it, as personal correspondence. Be nice, and pleasant
and throw a paragraph or two at the top, saying Hi <name of requestor>, how are
you? I am fine. Weather here is same ol same ol, how about you? blah blah blah.
TSR can not regulate personal correspondence, and they HAVE given you express
permission to write your ideas and share them with friends, they just have a
little whine about the easier accomplishment of this via FTP cause they see
'their' money going away... SNORT, yeah, right!
Anyway, emailing this information puts it into the realm of correspondance
with friends, and there is NO LAW that limits the number of friends you can
have.
So, as an upshot, we'll all get a LOT of new friends, and poor widdle nerd
TSR, with it's broken glasses taped at the bridge and insistance we let it
play or it'll take it's books home, well, we already know... nerds who act
like that don't have ANY friends....
Sorta makes you glad Waldenbooks now refuses to carry AD&D they are loosing
their backbone of distribution. My only suggestion, steal more books from
B. Daltons and private gamestores and chains like Hobby Town. Maybe we can kill
the Dragon (tm)....(A note for the stupid... that last was a facetious comment
not meant to be taken seriously, shoplifting is a crime, and you'll get a
hernia)
Galen
verkuilen john v
Which was exactly my point. They (TSR) may even be able to make a good
case for derivative work if you put in too many peripherials (spider
queen, etc.). At any rate, it won't be as original as you _could_ do.
--
Jay Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"Paradise is just like where you are right now, only much, much better."
--Laurie Anderson, "Home of the Brave"
Mark Nockleby
>The actual name "Drow" has been used in several Live RPGs and other places
>to refer to the "dark elves", but I'm not sure if the actual name was
>originated with TSR or not. I'll try to check an OED (unless someone
>beats me to it and posts) and see if Drow are mentioned.. That's a fairly
>definitive answer. :-)
I believe the first occurrence of drow in a TSR published work is
in the last of the "giant series" G3, which would have been published
shortly before 1980 (I can't be sure I don't actualy have that
particular module). So I think that to prove that others came up
with the name "drow" before TSR did around 1979 or so, you need to
find a reference before 1979.
By the way, is there really anything to the claim that the word
"drow" is from celtic legend? If anyone actually knows, I'd appreciate
a reference (and could you e-mail me a copy of your post, please?)
-mark.
--
"But I like to think that when something disturbs me that it is important"
-- Steven Jesse Bernstein.
n...@noether.ucsc.edu
Mark Nockleby
>Drow appears in Norse legends as "Svart-alvar" (meaning Black or Dark Elf).
> That is 1000 years before TSR (give or take some hundred years) and is
> NOT created by TSR. True, the difference is great but the idea is used
> before so the Drow is NOT created by TSR.
Svart-alvar doesn't sound like "drow" to me. Did the ancient norse
actually used the name "drow." TSR only has writes to the name, not
the concept. TSR says you can even spell it backwards. You can write
stories about hordes of evil "word"
heh, heh :)
c_k...@cc.colorado.edu
>
>>4. Specialist mage classes in any combination. i.e.
>> illusionist/transmuters, evoker/necromancers, etc.
>
>Yes, this is allowed, but if your new class has your old class as
>an oposition school, then you will not regain your old specialist
>spellcasting abilities once your exceed your 1st class's level.
>
>> I havent seen what happens in these cases addressed anywhere. I was
>>told that there was an official published AD&D product that presented a
>>multiple specialist mage, but I was unable to get find it.
>
>These are addressed in the PHB.
Page number, please, Dave?
Socrates1
mob...@Mercury.mcs.com (Rob Repp) writes:
>Get a lawyer to do a trademark search for you, or maybe try the TM/(C)
>database on Compuserve. I think you might be mistaken.
C.J. Cherryh references the term drow in "Arafel's Saga", noting it is
derived from the word "drough." The term is defined as a "dark elf."
There's no mention of a TSR trademark or copyright to be found. So either
you are wrong on this point-- as a number of people have pointed out,
there are a number of myth patterns with dark elves-- or else you have
already had your rights violated. I've seen a number of RPGs that used the
term drow, as well.
Socrates1
(Michael Mezo) writes:
>Internet is an establishment for the free exchange of ideas, it is not a
>commercial venture, and commercial agencies do NOT support it.
I believe that's fast becoming a thing of the past-- isn't the government
killing off funding, so as to privatize the 'Net? That's what the LA Times
reported this past week.
Socrates1
>Sorta makes you glad Waldenbooks now refuses to carry AD&D they are
>loosing their backbone of distribution.
The two Waldenbooks in my town have plenty of TSR stuff. When did this
"refusal" supposedly occur?
Socrates1
Nockleby) writes:
> So I think that to prove that others came up
>with the name "drow" before TSR did around 1979 or so, you need to
>find a reference before 1979.
>By the way, is there really anything to the claim that the word
>"drow" is from celtic legend? If anyone actually knows, I'd appreciate
>a reference (and could you e-mail me a copy of your post, please?)
As I noted in another thread, C.J. Cherryh references the term drow in
"Arafel's Saga," the first part of which was published in 1979. She notes
it as being of Celtic origin.
Tim Skirvin
>In article <34lr9a$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, tski...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu
>(Tim Skirvin) writes:
>>>>Understand this. If you're going to outlaw it in quantities,
>then it's outlawed in one-on-one. You have made it impossible to
>distribute anything TSR with this policy. Period. <<<
>Once again, the policy says no such thing. Yes your friends are members of
>the general public, but they hardly CONSTITUTE the general public.
Then who IS the general public, then?
What more do you want?
What is the difference exactly?
>If you have a problem with this concept, than you have a problem with
>copyright laws in general. Are you arguing that there should be NO
>copyrights?
No I do not.
There should be copyrights, yes. This is not a problem. What
IS a problem is that copyrights do not generally allow people to make
stuff based on that work, which is the idea of RPG's.
Now, the game is to make adventures. TSR's policy is now that
you can NOT make adventures, if you plan to share them. If you could,
then you could distribute your ideas as much as you damn well please.
You could just not pass your product off as made by the company.
If they say that you can make adentures and run them, and share
them with your friends, then why is it not allowed to share your
adventures with even MILLIONS of people? As long as you aren't taking
credit for the work of others, then you should be OK.
You can't allow some derivitive works, but not others.
- Tim Skirvin
--
------Tim Skirvin (tski...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu)------
"Now I realize that technically speaking that's only one flaw but I
thought it was such a big one it was worth mentioning twice."
-- Kryten, Red Dwarf (Holoship)
Azrael
the credits they're listed as a creation of Gary Gygax...who IS (was) TSR.
Chris Anderson
> In article <Cvs5L...@Unify.com>, c...@unify.com (Chris Anderson) writes:
>
> >>>Wrong. Dark elves are part of a number of myth cycles; "drow"
> specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.<<<
>
> anyone know which Welsh/Celtic works speak of "drow?"
Urrrr... one of the one's that I've read? :-)
My recollection was that it was used several times as a lesser-known word
for Dark Elves (of course, I don't remember the more common phrase) in a
pack of translations of the Mabinogian Cycle that I was reading about 10
years ago. I don't have the exact reference, although I also dimly
recollect that I saw it used in a C.J. Cherryh novel as well (Tree of
Swords and Jewels? I'm really dredging here...) around the same time.
Chris
Chris Anderson
> First a summary response
>
> Dark elves are common in mythology and maybe used by anyone. On this everyone agrees
> (as far as I've seen)
>
> The interesting question.
>
> Where does the name Drow come from?
> I thought this was TSR but Chris Anderson writes:
>
> >"drow"
> >specifically come from Welsh/Celtic.
>
It is from memory, and no, I don't have any references off of the top of
my head (except for a novel, read on). The word was a less-commonly-used
term to describe the Dark Elf race -- in one of several translations of
Welsh/Celtic myth cycles that I was reading in the early 80's. I believe
it was in the Mabinogian, but I'm not sure. There was also a
more-commonly-used term that I can't remember anymore.
The other reference that I have is in a novel: Tree of Swords and Jewels
by C.J. Cherryh.
Chris
S. Keith Graham
>The first appearance of the drow in print is in the FIEND FOLIO, where in
>the credits they're listed as a creation of Gary Gygax...who IS (was) TSR.
However, elves (their game stats) are also listed as someone's
creation, I'm sure. But you can be attacked by "elves" in thousands
of different published universes, mytical, fictional, and in various
RPGs.
TSR has absolutely no claim on "Elves", per se. (Now if they
can see in the dark, detect traps, are immune to sleep spells,
are short (vs tall), etc. then TSR *may* have some claim.)
Similiarly, dragons, griffins, medusa, and many of the other monsters
in the early books have a mythical or fictional origin. Using
their name (not stats), is, without a doubt "safe".
The question is, were "drow" created entirely by TSR/GG? Or
was the name taken from some mythical or fictional source?
(Then the next question is, can you use them even if TSR
created them, provided you don't include any material from
TSR's books?)
Answer.... We're working on both questions.. :)
Keith Graham
vap...@cad.gatech. edu
Rob McNeur
> First a summary response
>
> Dark elves are common in mythology and maybe used by anyone. On this everyone agrees
> (as far as I've seen)
>
> The interesting question.
>
> Where does the name Drow come from?
> I thought this was TSR but Chris Anderson writes:
>
edition 1972) (ie several years *before* T$R ever published anything of their
monster lists)
It has 2 meanings for 'Drow'
1) (Scottish), noun, a drizzling mist, a squall, (origin obscure)
2) (Shetland and Orkney) a form of Troll
So T$R has definitely 'borrowed' the 'monster' name of Drow from mythology.
and hence they can *NOT* copyrite it at all, although I have no doubt that
they may well try to do so.
(
/ \
/ )
>>---|-> get my point ?
\ )
\ / Rob McNeur
( R...@ccc.govt.nz
WinningerR
(Kendall Bullen) writes:
>>>Yawn. As many have pointed out, their rights wouldn't be jeopardized
by
derivative works -- only the amount they could get in later suits, as
damages.<<<
Their "rights" could be jeopardized in countless ways. Sure an illegal
derivative work won't take TSR's copyrights away, but it can inflict all
sorts of damage.
>>>OTOH, thinking that two sites (one not ftp'able) and the 'promise of
more' answers every question and concern is pretty naive.'<<<
Well, I'm still waiting for a real concern to be voiced. Every time I ask
for a specific gripe, everyone returns to general hysterical grousing.
WinningerR
>>>You couldnt be more wrong.... Coca Cola's 'secret' formula has been out
in the
public domain for a LONG time. It's in a book, either Big Secrets or
Bigger
Secrets and if necessary I'll go get you ISBN numbers and page
references.<<<
You've fallen for that? Coke has said many times over the years that there
are many holes and inaccuracies in this "published version" of the
formula. One quick look at it confirms this to be the case. Try to use
that so-called formula to actually duplicate Coke.
>>>Writing our own adventures though, based wherever
else we may damn well please, is free game. We are _encouraged_ to do such
in the opening pages of the DMG. Thats what has me angry, their assertion
that
we cannot write and share our own adventures based in our own worlds using
'their' system.<<<
Did you miss the giant message from TSR's legal departments informing you
that you can upload such materials to your heart's content (without the
disclaimer)? Don't use any proprietary characters and spells and try to
hide your game mechanics just a bit (to remove any possibility of
infringement). It's really that simple.
WinningerR
(Socrates1) writes:
>>>I've seen a number of RPGs that used the term drow, as well.<<<
Which?
WinningerR
(Tim Skirvin) writes:
>>>Then who IS the general public, then?
What more do you want?
What is the difference exactly?<<<
The "general public" is all of us. Think of it this way: if anyone in the
country has theoretical access to your work, you are distibuting it to the
general public. Putting something on the Internet is giving everyone in
the country theoretical access -- all I need is a computer and an AOL
account and I can access the material regardless of who I am or whether or
not I know you. (of course, it's much more complicated than this, but
let's begin here).
You are always allowed to use copyrighted items for "personal use."
Playing a game with your friends is going to constitute personal use.
Uploading your file to 100,000 people obviously isn't.
Now, you say, I can't give the cool adventure I designed to my friend so
he can play it with his group? No, legally you can't -- but TSR doesn't
have a problem with such a move and wouldn't do anything to stop you.
They're only nervous about the prospect of illicit materials receiving
mass distribution (and quite possibly, justifiably so).
Socrates1
(WinningerR) writes:
>Which?
Most-- if not all-- of these have been computer RPGs-- Realmz is the one I
recall immediately, since I've just started playing it.
And as already noted, at least one non-TSR fantasy novel uses the term--
and it dates back to about the same time TSR started using the term
Wayne J. Rasmussen
: The first appearance of the drow in print is in the FIEND FOLIO, where in
: the credits they're listed as a creation of Gary Gygax...who IS (was) TSR.
Actually, the first appearance of the "Drow" was in G3. Which was
published, If I remember correctly, in 1977. The Fiend Folio wasn't
published until 1981 or so.
wayne
Curtis Shenton
>In <77902062...@clone.his.com> kendall...@his.com (Kendall Bullen) writes:
>
>
>Actually, I may be wrong on the name "Drow". "Dark Elves", in about
>20 different species, including the spider motif, is taken directly
>from legend. (And poison use, fear of the light, etc. are also in some
>of the legends.)
>The actual name "Drow" has been used in several Live RPGs and other places
>to refer to the "dark elves", but I'm not sure if the actual name was
>originated with TSR or not. I'll try to check an OED (unless someone
>beats me to it and posts) and see if Drow are mentioned.. That's a fairly
>definitive answer. :-)
Do you have any refernces for the spider bit? Dark faerie are a common
motif but I don't remember any particualr connection between them and
spiders.
>
>Keith Graham
>(who will try to admit when he's wrong)
>vap...@cad.gatech.edu
--
Curtis Shenton cur...@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
Interested in the process of designing unique magic/psionic/etc power
systems in an rpg? The loc-l mailing list is set up for discussions on
this topic. Email me to find out how to sign up.
Curtis Shenton
Now this is interesting. What is the copyright on Cherryh's book? What
language is the word "drough" from? And what other rpgs use the word
drow?
Curtis Shenton
I've got another reference from Webster's New Twentieth Century
Dictionary Unabridged.
Drow, n. [Scot] a tiny elf of a race fabled to live in caves and to
forge magic metalwork
So the only thing unique to TSR's drow seems to be the spider worship.
And another poster said he recalls seeing a refence to dark elves and
spiders so maybe there is nothing unique about TSR's drow. Perhaps a
btter example of a race you can't use without the disclaimer is the
Githyanki.
>
> (
> / \
> / )
> >>---|-> get my point ?
> \ )
> \ / Rob McNeur
> ( R...@ccc.govt.nz
Kendall Bullen
TM> Oh, FUDGE! (What version is it up to now?)
Speaking of which, I used ftpmail to get this. The file was corrupted. Also,
it looks really silly (using things like 'fair' and 'good' and 'mediocre' and
such-like -- geez, reminds me of Marvel Super-Heroes 'monstrous' et al., or
whatever system used colours . . . but I think both of those used corresponding
numbers, at least). But then, I didn't read the whole thing, so. . . .
<grin&shrug>
Kendall
Kendall Bullen
KA> They were not created by TSR either.
Well that was sure a useful posting. Almost as good as some of WinningerR's
<grink>. Until someone says something beyond this, I'm inclined to actually
-gasp- believe that perhaps TSR did originate the *term* 'Drow' -- or at least,
someone who worked for TSR who foolishly gave TSR rights to it. <wink>
Now, if someone actually has something to say beyond "yes they did" and "no
they didn't" . . . then maybe it's worth posting a response to my note about
it. If not, they why on earth bother?!
Kendall
Rob McNeur
> The first appearance of the drow in print is in the FIEND FOLIO, where in
> the credits they're listed as a creation of Gary Gygax...who IS (was) TSR.
Wrong
The dictionary I checked yesterday was a Chambers dictionary *1972* edition
(well before Gary wrote his stuff) and lists the word DROW as coming from
mythology, specifically from the Shetland islands area and has it meaning a
troll like monster, which, given the wide meaning of the 'troll' term prior
to widespread RPGs, just basically means a nasty monster, which would
allow it to cover the 'dark elf' as well.
So Gary Gygax/T$R still stole/borrowed it and can't copyrite it.
Barbara Haddad
> was the name taken from some mythical or fictional source?
> (Then the next question is, can you use them even if TSR
> created them, provided you don't include any material from
> TSR's books?)
>
> Answer.... We're working on both questions.. :)
>
Actually, 'drow' or dark elves have a long tradition in
Scandinavian & Celtic mythology. The 'dark alfar' [dark elves] & the
'light alfar' [light elves] were both capricious creatures; with the dark
a bit more inclined to do deliberate harm than the light.
However this whole evil elves living in caves & salavating over
spider goddesses is strictly TSR [thank goodness].....
The dark alfar lived underground & were fine craftsmen, thank you.
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289