3.5E Undead lycanthropes?
SeaHen
order are the templates applied? Do the animal HDs change to undead
HDs (and increase to d12s)? Can a werewolf lich transform into a wolf
skeleton?
sw
Undead is a "higher level type" than lycanthrope, so he'd be undead.
Maybe with the shapeshifter subtype. Precisely how he evolves (what
order you apply things in) would depend on what kind of undead he
turns into. If he rises as a wight, then he's a wight with the werewolf
template. If he rises as a ghost or a lich, he's a werewolf with the
ghost or lich template. As to wether he keeps his shapeshifting ability,
the relevant undead type should provide enough description to adjudicate
that.
--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
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scholars remain for an eternity." - Ulughbek
Reginald Blue
In general, you have to watch out for "incompatible" templates. The
lycanthrope template is incompatible with the undead template:
"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant
(referred to hereafter as the base creature).
Undead are not humanoid or giant, so the template cannot be applied.
If you cast "animate dead" on a werewolf, it would strip away the
lycanthrope template and you'd be left with a zombie humanoid.
By the book. Now, if you're the GM, you can do whatever you darn well
please. Technically, you should create a new template to describe exactly
what happens... then the answers to your questions above become "whatever
you want."
It would be quite cool to see a "lycanthrope undead" template.
--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
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International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
sw
> SeaHen wrote:
>> When a lycanthrope becomes undead, is he still a lycanthrope? In what
>> order are the templates applied? Do the animal HDs change to undead
>> HDs (and increase to d12s)? Can a werewolf lich transform into a wolf
>> skeleton?
>
> In general, you have to watch out for "incompatible" templates. The
> lycanthrope template is incompatible with the undead template:
>
> "Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant
> (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
>
> Undead are not humanoid or giant, so the template cannot be applied.
From the d20 SRD:
---
* Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there's no limit to the number of templates you can add to a
creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a
time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates.
Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature's type -
you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other
templates you might want to add.
---
So you can only become a werewolf lich if you inherited lycanthrope, not
if you had it inflicted via a wound. If you were an inherited lycanthrope
before becoming undead, you will ALWAYS keep the lycanthrope template,
though, admittedly, as a skeleton or zombie you will lose most of the
lycanthrope special abilities anyway...
The type transition would be:
* Start as humanoid or giant.
* Become a lycanthrope, gain the shapechanger subtype.
* Become an undead, type changes to undead.
You're correct though that an undead can never gain the lycanthrope
template if he did not already have it at birth.
Werewolf dhampirs for everyone!
Reginald Blue
Okay, hold on. Undead is not a template. It's a base type. So, becoming
an undead isn't remotely like applying a template. You are undead at that
point. You could have had thousands of templates before you died, but, once
you're a zombie, then, you're a zombie. Period.
sw
> sw wrote:
>> On 2008-12-08, Reginald Blue <Regina...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> SeaHen wrote:
>>>> When a lycanthrope becomes undead, is he still a lycanthrope? In
>>>> what order are the templates applied? Do the animal HDs change to
>>>> undead HDs (and increase to d12s)? Can a werewolf lich transform
>>>> into a wolf skeleton?
>>>
>>> In general, you have to watch out for "incompatible" templates. The
>>> lycanthrope template is incompatible with the undead template:
>>>
>>> "Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or
>>> giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
>>>
>>> Undead are not humanoid or giant, so the template cannot be applied.
>>
>> From the d20 SRD:
>>
>> In theory, there's no limit to the number of templates you can add to
>> a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template
>> one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying
>> acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay
>> attention to the creature's type - you may add a template that makes
>> the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.
>>
>> So you can only become a werewolf lich if you inherited lycanthrope,
>> not if you had it inflicted via a wound. If you were an inherited
>> lycanthrope before becoming undead, you will ALWAYS keep the
>> lycanthrope template, though, admittedly, as a skeleton or zombie you
>> will lose most of the lycanthrope special abilities anyway...
>>
>> The type transition would be:
>> * Start as humanoid or giant.
>> * Become a lycanthrope, gain the shapechanger subtype.
>> * Become an undead, type changes to undead.
>>
>> You're correct though that an undead can never gain the lycanthrope
>> template if he did not already have it at birth.
>>
>> Werewolf dhampirs for everyone!
>
> Okay, hold on. Undead is not a template. It's a base type. So, becoming
> an undead isn't remotely like applying a template. You are undead at that
> point. You could have had thousands of templates before you died, but, once
> you're a zombie, then, you're a zombie. Period.
By "become an undead", I meant apply one of the undead templates. There
are many undead templates, all of which give you the Undead type. Becoming
undead is in fact /exactly like applying a template/.
Quoting from the SRD again since I'm at work:
-quote-
* Creating a Zombie
"Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal
creature (other than undead) [...]
-/quote-
So in the case of our theoretical zombie werewolf, to generate his stats
we would:
1) Take the base creature (humanoid or giant).
2) Add his inherited template (Lycanthrope), the modifications of which
are always added first.
3) Add his acquired template (Zombie).
In game terms, this is more like:
1) Start with a werewolf.
2) Kill him.
3) Animate him as a zombie.
4) Zombie werewolf!
5) Profit.
If you're a human half-dragon who comes back as a zombie, you don't come
back as a human zombie. You come back as a human half-dragon zombie. If
you're a tauric half-drow, half-displacer beast, you come back as a tauric
half-drow, half-displacer beast zombie. You never lose your templates in
this transition, even though becoming a zombie costs you many of the
abilities from those templates... that's just the nature of being a zombie.
If you become a lich or a ghost or whatever, you keep all of your relevant
template abilities...
Keith Davies
I don't see why someone who acquired lycanthropy (rather than inherited
it) cannot become undead.
If he becomes a skeleton or zombie he loses the template (regardless of
whether it was inherited or acquired), but a human wizard, bitten by a
werewolf (acquired template) who later follows the Dark Path and becomes
a lich should be fine.
Humanoid
-> Humanoid (Shapechanger)
-> Undead (Shapechanger, Augmented Humanoid)
However, the lycanthrope template cannot be applied to a human wizard
who has *already* become a lich.
Humanoid
-> Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
He can't have lycanthrope added because he is already undead, no longer
humanoid.
This even makes sense, after a fashion. If lycanthropy is a disease,
and undead are immune to disease, it follows that undead cannot contract
lycanthropy. There *is* an argument that the creature might lose
lycanthropy (no longer subject to disease, therefore no longer affected
by lycanthropy, therefore lose template), but it does not explicitly say
so in the template description. The template description says that it
is removed by /animate dead/, which also strips off class levels and the
like, reducing the creature to its base form.
Keith
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http://www.kjdavies.org/ and you go looking for the trouble ticket.
sw
> If he becomes a skeleton or zombie he loses the template (regardless of
> whether it was inherited or acquired), but a human wizard, bitten by a
> werewolf (acquired template) who later follows the Dark Path and becomes
> a lich should be fine.
The "Animate Dead" spell versus the actual Zombie template is weird. If
they're animated by Animate Dead in the PHB, they lose all unusual
abilities like templates, but if they somehow gain the Zombie template
via other means (like the DM pulling a monster out of his a-- er, notes)
then they keep the templates they had previously.
I guess it's the "no you can't revive my broken monster as an invincible
zombie" clause. It even reserves the right to have NPCs bring that same monster
back as an invincible zombie through... er, hax I guess.
The Zombie template in the Monster Manual clearly supports werewolf zombies,
even though they can't be created by Animate Dead.
uglyvan
> On 2008-12-09, Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
> > If he becomes a skeleton or zombie he loses the template (regardless of
> > whether it was inherited or acquired), but a human wizard, bitten by a
> > werewolf (acquired template) who later follows the Dark Path and becomes
> > a lich should be fine.
>
> The "Animate Dead" spell versus the actual Zombie template is weird.
seems to be ad&d weak spot.
Animate Dead was a spell to say like in, you know, evil sorcerors
that can "even" animate a dead corpse;
an undead is a sentient being;
therefore it is uneasy to "give access membership in the realm of the
undead" to ad&d zombies and skeletons :??:
for, according to actual movies, the undead type's distinctive feature
is its special ability to regrow any limb that it... etc...
... so that another undead obvious ability is of the immortal subtype.