DarkSun: Preservers and defiling?
Werner Bauer
Hello everybody!
In the Prism Pentad (mainly in "The Amber Enchantress") Sadira uses
preserving magic as well as defiling magic.
I am just about to start a Dark Sun campaign and I would like to make this
possible for my PCs, because I think it adds to the drama and would be a
nice story hook (the Pc being "outcast" by the Alliance...)
Do any rules exist in any of the TSR products? Where?
Has anybody got any house rules to this subject?
Any suggestions or comments?
thanx a lot!!
--
/|Werner Bauer, Computer Center University Augsburg
-|Werner Bauer, Neuteilweg 15, D-86899 Landsberg a.Lech, Germany
\|EMail: wer...@ibm20s.rz.uni-augsburg.de
David Johnson
>
>Hello everybody!
>
>In the Prism Pentad (mainly in "The Amber Enchantress") Sadira uses
>preserving magic as well as defiling magic.
>
>I am just about to start a Dark Sun campaign and I would like to make this
>possible for my PCs, because I think it adds to the drama and would be a
>nice story hook (the Pc being "outcast" by the Alliance...)
>Any suggestions or comments?
In the Dark Sun module(the first one) it mentions that defiling magic
is easier to learn than perserving magic because of the way the magic
draws power. Perservers learn that type of magic of who they are,
if they want to learn defiling magic it depends on what you say...
One way is just to have a human duoclass perserver/defiler
Or just have the person find a scroll with defiling magic on it.
D Johnson
"That's not very sporting... using Real bullets."
--North by Northwest.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle
and will pee on your computer."
--Someone somwhere sometime.
Spatula
|> In article <werner-31...@apple.rz.uni-augsburg.de> wer...@ibm20s.RZ.Uni-Augsburg.DE (Werner Bauer) writes:
|> >
|> >Hello everybody!
|> >
|> >In the Prism Pentad (mainly in "The Amber Enchantress") Sadira uses
|> >preserving magic as well as defiling magic.
|> >
|> >I am just about to start a Dark Sun campaign and I would like to make this
|> >possible for my PCs, because I think it adds to the drama and would be a
|> >nice story hook (the Pc being "outcast" by the Alliance...)
|> >Has anybody got any house rules to this subject?
|> >Any suggestions or comments?
|> >--
|>
|>
|> In the Dark Sun module(the first one) it mentions that defiling magic
|> is easier to learn than perserving magic because of the way the magic
|> draws power. Perservers learn that type of magic of who they are,
|> if they want to learn defiling magic it depends on what you say...
|> One way is just to have a human duoclass perserver/defiler
|> Or just have the person find a scroll with defiling magic on it.
|>
|> D Johnson
Actually, I generally rule you can't be dual-classed in the same class,
i.e.- a thief/bard. As to the Dark Sun question, I'd say that a preserver
wanting to defile can cast spells as a Defiler with the same XP, which
in most cases will allow extra spells. The preserver should also be non-good
(since Defilers cannot be good-aligned). This doesn't work the other
way around; Defilers have taken too many shortcuts to learn how to
power their spells without sucking lifeforce from the earth.
Saptula
Brian Vickers
(Spatula) wrote:
> In article <25vsn3$t...@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, mse_...@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu (David Johnson) writes:
> |> In article <werner-31...@apple.rz.uni-augsburg.de> wer...@ibm20s.RZ.Uni-Augsburg.DE (Werner Bauer) writes:
> |> >In the Prism Pentad (mainly in "The Amber Enchantress") Sadira uses
> |> >preserving magic as well as defiling magic.
> |> >
> |> >I am just about to start a Dark Sun campaign and I would like to make this
> |> >possible for my PCs, because I think it adds to the drama and would be a
> |> >nice story hook (the Pc being "outcast" by the Alliance...)
> |> >Has anybody got any house rules to this subject?
> |> >Any suggestions or comments?
> |> >--
> |> In the Dark Sun module(the first one) it mentions that defiling magic
> |> is easier to learn than perserving magic because of the way the magic
> |> draws power. Perservers learn that type of magic of who they are,
> |> if they want to learn defiling magic it depends on what you say...
> |> One way is just to have a human duoclass perserver/defiler
> |> Or just have the person find a scroll with defiling magic on it.
>
> i.e.- a thief/bard. As to the Dark Sun question, I'd say that a preserver
> wanting to defile can cast spells as a Defiler with the same XP, which
> in most cases will allow extra spells. The preserver should also be non-good
> (since Defilers cannot be good-aligned). This doesn't work the other
> way around; Defilers have taken too many shortcuts to learn how to
> power their spells without sucking lifeforce from the earth.
I would've agreed with you until recently too. In a recent DS product (I
can't remember which one at the moment) it listed Sadira's stats after her
experience at the Pristine Tower. It noted that she was a X level Defiler/Y
level Preserver. The writeup implied that she was indeed dual-classed,
though how a half-elf can do this I'm not sure.
-- Brian
brian_...@isd.jpl.nasa.gov
.sig-less
Spatula
But that product was the Tyr-thing, and while it was pretty decent,
it included a number of poor judgement calls, such as making Rikus
and Neeva NG (I don't buy that), Agis LN (when he should be LG), and
total avoidance of the whole Sadira Preserver/Defiler thing by just
labeling her class as just that, i.e. a nth level Preserver/Defiler.
Whatever T$R prints for a game world should only be taken at face
value - as a work made by someone who usually has nothing to do with
whoever made a campaign world and those who made its other
various supplements.
Spatula
Kilteer
>
>
>In the Prism Pentad (mainly in "The Amber Enchantress") Sadira uses
>preserving magic as well as defiling magic.
>
>I am just about to start a Dark Sun campaign and I would like to make this
>possible for my PCs, because I think it adds to the drama and would be a
>nice story hook (the Pc being "outcast" by the Alliance...)
>
rules for DarkSun. Anyway, how often do the novels follow the rules of the
game? What I'd like to know are the rules for Sadira's new form of
spellcasting. But, back to the bit about preserver/defiler magic.... It makes
a good story hook, someone who is a preserver suddenly loses control and
accidently reduces an area of land to ash.... It can be fun....
>Do any rules exist in any of the TSR products? Where?
>Has anybody got any house rules to this subject?
>Any suggestions or comments?
>
>thanx a lot!!
>
>--
>/|Werner Bauer, Computer Center University Augsburg
>-|Werner Bauer, Neuteilweg 15, D-86899 Landsberg a.Lech, Germany
>\|EMail: wer...@ibm20s.rz.uni-augsburg.de
I hope this helps.
---Kilteer the mighty (bizarre) Ranger
PS: I'm going to try and run a DarkSun campaign at UMASS Amherst this fall,
if interested, E-mail me at this address, for now.
Chris Schuck
>
>But that product was the Tyr-thing, and while it was pretty decent,
>it included a number of poor judgement calls, such as making Rikus
>and Neeva NG (I don't buy that), Agis LN (when he should be LG), and
>total avoidance of the whole Sadira Preserver/Defiler thing by just
>labeling her class as just that, i.e. a nth level Preserver/Defiler.
>Whatever T$R prints for a game world should only be taken at face
>value - as a work made by someone who usually has nothing to do with
>whoever made a campaign world and those who made its other
>various supplements.
Agreed, this accessory was not bad, but it was very flawed in some
regards. Another example of bad judgement was saying that Kalak was
lvl 25 Human Defiler/Psionicist. In Dragon Kings it clearly states
that he was a 21st lvl Dragon. Also, things like making Rikus lvl 16,
etc. If you spend as many years in the arena as Rikus was supposed to
have been there, and be as good as he was supposed to be, you're
better than lvl 16. This thing was written by someone who has not
read either the Prism Pentad series, or the Dragon Kings supplement.
The Prospector Ghost
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher H. Schuck //
sch...@marge.math.binghamton.edu \\ //
76662...@compuserve.com \X/
Spatula
|> In article <260v3m$q...@usenet.rpi.edu> shu...@cii3116-25.its.rpi.edu (Spatula) writes:
|>
|>
|> Actually, I generally rule you can't be dual-classed in the same class,
|> i.e.- a thief/bard. As to the Dark Sun question, I'd say that a preserver
|> wanting to defile can cast spells as a Defiler with the same XP, which
|> in most cases will allow extra spells. The preserver should also be non-good
|> (since Defilers cannot be good-aligned). This doesn't work the other
|> way around; Defilers have taken too many shortcuts to learn how to
|> power their spells without sucking lifeforce from the earth.
|>
|>
|> According to the meager data I read from various DS books (basic + Dragon
|> Kings), Defilers used "shortcuts" to get their spellcasting powers. Thus,
|> they CAN'T cast preserver spells. Preservers, on the other hand, CAN cast
|> defiler spells, BUT if they do it has the same effect as if a defiler had
|> cast it. i.e. it defiles the land. What this means is that situations that
|> are resolved using defiling magic shouldn't grant XPs at all, and
|> adventures where defiling magic is used (unless there is a very good reason
|> and the preserver then vows to make more than ample repairs afterwards)
|> should grant muchly-reduced XPs.
While I agree with the XP-reduction-bit, there is no reason for a Preserver
to defile under normal circumstances: you piss the other Preservers off, along
with any good-alinged or nature oriented (Druids, Clerics) people. But since
using the land's life-force seems to be an easier power-source than diverting
it from wherever Perservers get it from, I made the ruling above, giving Neutral
and Evil Perservers more options if they get desperate. Of course, it still
has the same consequences (the mage just better hope there's no Druids around...=).
|> Now, since there ain't gods in DS, the preserver won't lose preserver
|> powers. But other preservers surely won't like this "traitor" at all.
|>
|> The simplest way may be to hve the character a bi-class preserver/defiler
|> with a split personnality or some other kinds of insanity. Why? Because
|> these classes aren't just opposite powers: they are opposites lines of
|> tought. Like a paladin and an assassin. What would you say to a player who
|> want to play a character with all the powers of the LG stereotypical
|> paladin, and all the powers of the LE stereotypical assassin? Not only the
|> powers don't match, but the psy-profile neither. Making the Pc a lawful
|> neutral paladin/assassin ain't going to cut it.
I see no reason for a split personality. Sadira certainly didn't have one, she
just saw the defilement justifible only in certain circumsatnces, i.e. to save
her skin. They're not opposite lines of thought, they're the same except that
Defilers leave out some bits that the Perservers do. And the end result is
the same, the two aren't opposite powers at all.
Spatula
|> --
|> /---------------------------\
|> | Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
|> | Ran...@info.polymtl.ca |
|> \---------------------------/
|>
Patrick Rannou
Actually, I generally rule you can't be dual-classed in the same class,
i.e.- a thief/bard. As to the Dark Sun question, I'd say that a preserver
wanting to defile can cast spells as a Defiler with the same XP, which
in most cases will allow extra spells. The preserver should also be non-good
(since Defilers cannot be good-aligned). This doesn't work the other
way around; Defilers have taken too many shortcuts to learn how to
power their spells without sucking lifeforce from the earth.
OK, I'm not sure at all about what I'm saying here but here goes:
According to the meager data I read from various DS books (basic + Dragon
Kings), Defilers used "shortcuts" to get their spellcasting powers. Thus,
they CAN'T cast preserver spells. Preservers, on the other hand, CAN cast
defiler spells, BUT if they do it has the same effect as if a defiler had
cast it. i.e. it defiles the land. What this means is that situations that
are resolved using defiling magic shouldn't grant XPs at all, and
adventures where defiling magic is used (unless there is a very good reason
and the preserver then vows to make more than ample repairs afterwards)
should grant muchly-reduced XPs.
I view it as a paladin who commits an evil act: sure, he always CAN do such
actions, but afterward he will be grief-stricken or something, or whatever.
And will lose paladin powers.
Now, since there ain't gods in DS, the preserver won't lose preserver
powers. But other preservers surely won't like this "traitor" at all.
The simplest way may be to hve the character a bi-class preserver/defiler
with a split personnality or some other kinds of insanity. Why? Because
these classes aren't just opposite powers: they are opposites lines of
tought. Like a paladin and an assassin. What would you say to a player who
want to play a character with all the powers of the LG stereotypical
paladin, and all the powers of the LE stereotypical assassin? Not only the
powers don't match, but the psy-profile neither. Making the Pc a lawful
neutral paladin/assassin ain't going to cut it.
Unless you allow paladin to be taken in it's broad term. i.e. you choose
the powers according to the paladin's god, in this case the
"paladin"/assassin really fits more the "LE anti-paladin of the god of
assassins" class... But having a paladin with "protection from evil" and
other clearly good-aligned powers combined with the assassin class? No
way, unless the guy has a split personnality.
I'd say the same thing goes for a preserver/defiler. You'd have to be crazy
to be able to encompass both opposed philosophies without, well, going
crazy... :-)
s34...@emu.insted.unimelb.edu.au
[I too have read the boxed set, and dragon kings.]
> |> According to the meager data I read from various DS books (basic + Dragon
> |> Kings), Defilers used "shortcuts" to get their spellcasting powers. Thus,
> |> they CAN'T cast preserver spells. Preservers, on the other hand, CAN cast
> |> defiler spells, BUT if they do it has the same effect as if a defiler had
> |> cast it. i.e. it defiles the land. What this means is that situations that
> |> are resolved using defiling magic shouldn't grant XPs at all, and
> |> adventures where defiling magic is used (unless there is a very good reason
> |> and the preserver then vows to make more than ample repairs afterwards)
> |> should grant muchly-reduced XPs.
My interpretation is that the spells themselves are the same whichever class
you are, so a preserver can learn a spell from a defiler's book and vice-versa.
The difference in the effect is due to the way the classes gain the energy.
All mage spell casting (and perhaps this is true in part for priests as well)
draws its energy from the caster and from the world about. This energy can be
drawn from many natural and magical 'forces' in the area, not just life force.
This includes such sources as the earth's magnetic field, the bonding between
atoms, the world's 'magic essence' field, elemental energy, energy drawn from
the interaction of the ethereal plane and the prime, and any number of other
potential sources. Defiler damage comes about because defilers just
wrench their power from life forms without regard to the minimum levels
required to maintain life. Preservers, however, learn how to drain their
environment without reducing below this level. (note that defilers also draw
from the other sources as well, the energy from a x' radius of grassland or
desert life is nowhere near enough to power a fireball for example. It is just
that life energy is 'easy' to drain, and quicker to learn how to get access
to.)
(another thing to note is that defiler magic is unique to Athas, but only
because this easy path to magic has never been discovered on other worlds
(perhaps the other worlds gods have prevented such discovery...) However, an
Athasian defiler transported to an other world could cast as per normal, with
normal defiling effect, perhaps with reduced radius destruction due to the new
worlds 'untapped' life energy... Kind of like a fresh battery.)
As to one class casting in the style of another, I rule that defilers can only
use the preserver method if they learn how to from a preserver. This would
require them to gain the difference in exp between preserver and defiler,
essentialy changing class to become a preserver. for example:
A 6th level defiler, with the assistance of a preserver of roughly equivalent
or highr level, could learn how to cast spells in the preserver method by
gaining the diference in experience between a level 2 preserver and a level 2
defiler. Once gained, the former defiler is capable of casting the same number
of spells as a normal 6th level defiler, but can cast the number of spells as
his "temporary" preserver level- in this case 2nd, as preserver spells.
If the former defiler does not loose heart, he can continue training, learning
to act as a preserver of low level by filling in the missing experience points.
(Perhaps he should be prevented from gaining more levels as defiler whilst
training..... after all he is trying to gain a whole new outlook. See the
rules on alignment change and Dual class character sections for the 'feel' of
these rules. Any casting of defiler spells whilst learning the new method
should be considered a reversal, and result in 1/2 or no exp for that
adventure cf dual class rules.)
Once the character has experience points enough to be a preserver of his former
defiler level, he should be treated in all respects as a preserver.
This means that any further level advancement is done as a preserver, the
character is no longer a defiler. from then on any casting in the defiler
fashion should be treated as outlined in the preserver section below.
(there would of course be quite severe social consequences with any of the
changes described here. The whole process should be as momentous a change as a
voluntary alignment change.)
Any defiler/psionocist who has begun the process of becoming a dragon by
casting the dragon metemorphosis[sp?] spell cannot become a preserver by this
method, even with extensive magic. The change to dragon is irreversible, even
with multiple whishes or any fancy 10th level magic effects. Any character
reaching the levels required for dragonhood is far too set in their ways to
change.
There are no restrictions as to when or who can change from defiler to
preserver, other than that above, and that a preserver as teacher must be
available for the whole process. The change is best done after level 2 is
reached, but is possible (indeed even easier) to acomplish at level 1_and_a_bit.
A teacher does not have to acompany the character on adventures, but must be
available to help the character review his new experiences ie. like the
training to gain levels rules.
Preservers find it difficult to cast spells in the defiler fashion, though they
are taught the process during apprentiship as a warning of how NOT to do
things. Any preserver has the capability to cast in the defiler way, but it is
hard to overcome their early conditioning. Apreserver casting defiler magic
casts it 50% slower than they would casting the same spell as preserver.
The preserver, if LAWFUL GOOD, would suffer extreme guilt, and would feel that
they had to atone for their missdeed... force the character to do the best they
can to reverse the damage caused. Other preservers would not suffer such
guilt, but, as do the LG preservers, risk a gradual alignment change towards
neutral, then evil. They will not lose preserver abilities however, no matter
how many defiler spells they cast.
(Any use of defiler magic by a preserver,
at any time in his life, EVER, prevents the character from becoming an
avangion. This condition is not reversable by any magic, even time manipulation
such that the event was removed from ever happening. Only DM decision could
change this but is most strongly discouraged.)
If a preserver frequently casts spells in the defiler fashion and makes no
attempt to atone for the deed, then they eventualy learn how to cast the spells
defiler fashion without a time penalty on the casting.... practice makes it
easier. Any preserver in this situation would almost certainly be of evil
alignment before the time penalty is removed.
Preservers always use the preserver experience table, even if they only cast
spells in the defiler way. once a preserver, always a preserver.
> While I agree with the XP-reduction-bit, there is no reason for a Preserver
> to defile under normal circumstances: you piss the other Preservers off, along
> with any good-alinged or nature oriented (Druids, Clerics) people. But since
> using the land's life-force seems to be an easier power-source than diverting
> it from wherever Perservers get it from, I made the ruling above, giving Neutral
> and Evil Perservers more options if they get desperate. Of course, it still
> has the same consequences (the mage just better hope there's no Druids around...=).
>
> {split personality removed} Sadira certainly didn't have one, she
> just saw the defilement justifible only in certain circumsatnces, i.e. to save
> her skin. They're not opposite lines of thought, they're the same except that
> Defilers leave out some bits that the Perservers do. And the end result is
> the same, the two aren't opposite powers at all.
>
Essentialy what i have said above... that it is just two different aproches to
the same thing, not a split personality or even two classes. At no point above
do I intend that acharacter to be Xth preserver/Yth defiler as separate
classes. In th case of defiler becoming preserver, there are temporary levels
in preserver, much like a dual class, but not restricted to humans, and only
for the purpose of upgrading and retraining the defiler so as not to destroy
the environment.
My apologies for the length, but I hope some people find this usefull.
If you pst a reply to this, could you also send a copy in email, as i dont know
when I'll next get news access.
email: rol...@edith.insted.unimelb.edu.au
Thanks.
Rolfe
***include favorite disclaimer and .sig files to taste.