Hit Points for multi-class characters?
Emil H. Gallant
character (i.e., a Fighter/Magic User)? Also, how do you determine
constitution bonuses for a first level multi-class character?
Next, how do you determine HP's for each character class level (i.e., second
level Fighter/first level Magic User)? And again how do you determine
constitution bonuses?
If you could point me towards any references in the DMG or the PHB I would
appreciate it.
Emil H. Gallant - egal...@borland.com - Opinions expressed are mine.
James Hernandez
-> How does one go about determining the HP's for a first level multi-class
-> character (i.e., a Fighter/Magic User)? Also, how do you determine
-> constitution bonuses for a first level multi-class character?
Roll hit points for both classes and take the average. It's my
understanding that for everything else, you take the better
bonus/attributes/etc of the classes. So if you get a better Con bonus
for the fighter, you use that.
Jason Clery
add together. then add the greater con bonus (fighter)
when a level is gained, dice approprate dice, half it and half con bonus.
We usually give first level characters max hp, so they have some staying
power. ( And a good base for later levels.....Consider a fighter who dices 1
on first level, no fun)
Per Landberger EUA/LA 357.082 5630
PH 2nd ed, page 44, middle of third column (multiclass benefits and restrictions):
Later the character is likely to gain levels in different classes at different times. When this happens rott the apropriate hit die and divide the result by the number of classes the character has (round down, but never less than 1). Split con bonus between classes.
I think that is unfair, as there is a 50% risk (for a 2-class character, 67% for a 3-class character) for every level to loose half (or a third of) a hit point. Add those halves (or thirds) up for a high level character and you loose a lot.
Another variation is to wait rolling any die until the levels are even (a MU/thief would wait rolling his thief hit die for 2nd level until he reaches 2nd level as mage etc). Still dividing the result with the number of classes of course (for a 2-class characer you'd never loose any fractions, as you always roll two dice at the same time). Again, it's a bit unfair, cause you'll have to wait longer for some hitpoints.
The way I do it is this:
Write down the result for each hit die. (the DM would want you to do that anyway, it's good to know when he sends a level-draining monster at you :-)
Every time you gain a level in one class sum all up and divide with the number of classes. Add con bonus (split if necessary: a 3rd level thief/2nd level MU with con bonus 1 would get a total bonus of 2.5). Round downwards. This way you'll never loose any fractions on the way, as you use the original die-results every time you gain level instead of adding on to the already rounded current HP.
Per Landberger
eua...@eua.ericsson.se
fiz...@lestat.shv.hb.se
Jorge Diaz
> Roll hit points for both classes and take the average.
Sorta. Roll each die seperately and divide by the number of classes
(rounding down). Not quite the same thing.
>It's my
>understanding that for everything else, you take the better
>bonus/attributes/etc of the classes. So if you get a better Con bonus
>for the fighter, you use that.
Again, not quite. You get the better Con bonus, yes, but you don't get
this every time you move up a level. Instead, you get the Con bonus
divided by the number of levels every time you move up a level.
For example, if you have a +2 bonus and are two classes you would get
+1 every time you moved up in each class.
This is all in the PH (2nd Ed) in the section on Multi- and Dual-Classed
Characters.
--
Jorge Diaz | "We all dream a lot; some are lucky, some
Georgia Institute of Technology | are not. But if you think it, want it,
Office of Information Technology | dream it, then it's real....
cco...@phantom.gatech.edu | You are what you feel."
Jorge Diaz
Please use the RETURN key next time.
In article <30ipqi$d...@euas20.eua.ericsson.se> eua...@eua.ericsson.se writes:
>I think that is unfair, as there is a 50% risk (for a 2-class character, 67% for a 3-class character) for every level to loose half (or a third of) a hit point. Add those halves (or thirds) up for a high level character and you loose a lot.
Sure. By 10th level, you've got a character who can have lost as many as 10
hit points. On the other hand, you've got a character who can beat the
stuffing out of any 10th level single-classed character.
Those 10 points don't sound like such a sacrifice to me.
>Another variation is to wait rolling any die until the levels are even (a MU/thief would wait rolling his thief hit die for 2nd level until he reaches 2nd level as mage etc).
Well, this could be a problem. A mage/thief would have the problem of the
thief class always being one level above the mage, until they hit 60,000
XPs (at which point the mage goes to 7th level and the thief is still 10,000
short of 8th level).
I don't want to have to wait until I have 60,000 XP before I can roll for
additional hit points.
Per Landberger EUA/LA 357.082 5630
> hit points. On the other hand, you've got a character who can beat the
> stuffing out of any 10th level single-classed character.
> Those 10 points don't sound like such a sacrifice to me.
Maybe not, but the single-classed characters you're adventuring with are
probably level 11 or 12, and there's another 10 HP (might be). Usually the
monsters or NPC's the DM sends at you are made to be a good match to the
toughest fighters in a party (? at least my DM do). My level 3/3/2,
fighter/thief/mage doesn't like being rendered unconsious at the beginning of
every fight while his 5th level fighter friend always come out of the fight
with a victory and a low (relatively) hit point loss. Yes, sure he can avoid
joining close combat, but hes too week of a mage (so far) to be able to fight
with magic from a safe distance, and he's too impatient just to hide in safety
and watch. When your low on HP every single one counts.
Per Landberger
eua...@eua.ericsson.se
fiz...@lestat.shv.hb.se
Rod Taylor
This may get a lot of people in an uproar, but I think it's fair to give
them the HP normally given for each level they have for each class. In
such a case, a second level fighter/first level MU would get 2D10 and 1D4
to roll hit points. Usually, split class char's are used in situations
where the combination of their levels is roughly equal to those of the rest
of the party - you don't put a 5th/5th MU/Fighter in a party of 5th level
characters! More likely it'll be used in a party of 7-9th level char's.
Thus, he'd need the HPs.
IMHO...
rodt
Bradley S. Ridnour
Although I don't rember the references to support this (don't have the
rulebooks with me), here goes..
[DISCLAIMER: This is the system I've used, it may not be the fully _official_
one.]
The HP's for a first level character are the average of the HP rolls for each
class, with the full CON bonus added to that average (use the fighter CON
bonus if one of the classes is fighter).
When a character gains a level in a class, s/he gains the following HP's:
([Class Roll]/[# of Classes])+([CON Bonus]/[# of Classes])
When rounding, use the results that make the most sense (see example).
Example: Fighter/Mage, 17 CON, always rolls max HP (for simplicity):
1st/1st Level: 10 HP ( AVE of 10 and 4, plus CON bonus of 3)
2nd/1st Level: 17 HP ( 10/2, plus HALF of CON bonus of 3, rounded up)
2nd/2nd Level: 20 HP ( 4/2, plus HALF of CON bonus of 3, rounded down)
As an obvious alternatvie, one could average in the CON bonuses as well.
This would lead to the following example:
Example: Fighter/Mage, 17 CON, always rolls max HP (for simplicity):
1st/1st Level: 10 HP ( AVE of 13 and 6, rounded up)
2nd/1st Level: 17 HP ( 13/2, rounded up)
2nd/2nd Level: 20 HP ( 6/2, rounded up)
Hmmm... gives the same results (have to explore this more :) )
Hope this helps...
--
+------------------------------------+----+----------------------------------+
| NAME : Bradley Stewart Ridnour |XXXX| E-MAIL: brid...@netcom.com |
| QUOTE: "Oh no, not again....." |XXXX| S-MAIL: P.O. Box 94 |
| |XXXX| Tyner, KY 40486-0094 |
+------------------------------------+----+----------------------------------+
McRost
Roll a dice for every class involved and then take the average. For
example, a Fighter/MU would be (D10 + D6) / 2.
If a character goes up a level in one class and not another, he/she gets
the dice for that class divided by the number of class he/she has. If a
MU/Thief goes up a level as a theif, he gets half a d6. What we always
did for the constitution bonus was to award half of it when they obtained
a level ( if the person has a 15, decide which class gets the extra point)
Note that for a character with a 17 or better constitution, only the
fighter class gets more than 2 bonus hit points. For example, a
Fighter/MU with an 18 Constitution gains a level in both classes. He gets
the total of a D10 and a D6 + 2 (MU bonus) + 4 (Fighter bonus) all divided
by 2.
Now if the person is triple classed, it gets a little messy, but I think
you get the point.
Any time anyone flames at me about D&D being evil or Satanic or some other
nonsense, I always tell them that you can't play D&D unless you can read,
write, do algebra, understand basic physics.....and have an active
imagination!
Barbara Haddad
> How does one go about determining the HP's for a first level multi-class
> character (i.e., a Fighter/Magic User)? Also, how do you determine
> constitution bonuses for a first level multi-class character?
>
> Next, how do you determine HP's for each character class level (i.e., second
> level Fighter/first level Magic User)? And again how do you determine
> constitution bonuses?
>
P44 of the PH says that you average all the hit dice rolls & take
the best CON bonus for the lot (once).
The way _I_ do it is that I give maximum hp per HD for each class,
add the CON bonus for each class & diide by the number of classes. Yes,
this means that PCs in my world can have fractional hp, but I don't round
off or round up -- the fraction is saved (& if they have 11.5 hp, then
they are conscious at 11 hp; unconscious at 12hp -- but still conscious
if they reach 11.5 --> which is possible with damage doing attacks that a
saving throw is made from (I don't drop or round up on the damage dice
either).
(I also sum all the XP required for each class & that total must be
reached before the character advances in any class.....but then, I don't
charge for training.....)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Jorge Diaz
*>Maybe not, but the single-classed characters you're adventuring with are
*>probably level 11 or 12, and there's another 10 HP (might be). Usually the
*>monsters or NPC's the DM sends at you are made to be a good match to the
*>toughest fighters in a party (? at least my DM do). My level 3/3/2,
*>fighter/thief/mage doesn't like being rendered unconsious at the beginning of
*>every fight while his 5th level fighter friend always come out of the fight
*>with a victory and a low (relatively) hit point loss. Yes, sure he can avoid
*>joining close combat, but hes too week of a mage (so far) to be able to fight
*>with magic from a safe distance, and he's too impatient just to hide in safety
*>and watch. When your low on HP every single one counts.
This is just a suggestion, but maybe you shouldn't be playing a fighter/
mage/thief.
Maybe.
Alexander Bernert
- Roll the dice, add the appropiate con-bonus for every class involved.
- Sum it up and divide the total by the number of classes, rounding down.
Example:
F/M/TA 8/9/10, CON 17
hp = (8*1d10+8*3 (fighter + con) + 9*1d4+9*2 (mage + con, +3 bonus for
fighter class only) + 10*1d6+10*2 (TA + con))/3 = ???
Alexander
no standard .sig
Andrew Arcand - ACPS/W94
Well, it's pretty obvious every DM has his/her favourite methods...
Consider this: A multiclass fighter/mage/thief will take approx 3
times as much time to gain a level as a single class character. This is a
fact. Therefore, when one considers the low hitpoints of a multiclass
character NO MATTER WHAT METHOD YOU USE, that character at 4/3/4 (a
believable set of numbers) with average hit points will be at approx 22
hit points (with a Con bonus of 2). Now, this is low, particularly when
you consider any accompanying single class characters, i.e. a fighter,
will be at approx 8th level with an average of approx 60 (with a Con bonus
of 2).
In order to challenge all characters in the party some adventures
will have to be scaled down for the multiclass, or scaled up for the
single class (all depending, of course, on the type of campaign you are
presenting).
The point of all this is that, even though a multiclass character can
obliterate most single class characters of several levels higher than
they, survival can still be a major problem due to low hit points. In
other words, err on the side of generosity if you wish to have a campaign
people will want to come back and play again...
- Andrew
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor.
You cannot pass."
dk...@cas.org
Obviously against the rules, but you know that. Its ok, but too
cumbersome for me to use.
Here's what I do (its against the rules, but its my campaign). Multi-Class
characters get the best of their respective classes weapon proficiencies
(starting and rate), non-weapon proficiencies (starting & rate), etc so
I give their best hit die (so if one of their classes is a fighter then
they get d10s and fighter con bonus.
Now you might ask how I handle a fighter/thief with 1500 experience in each
class. This would make him 1/2 level, does his increase in the thief class
add anything to his hit points. Well the answer is no, because it can't
happen that way, here's what I have done to avoid this problem.
I don't think of multi-class characters as being any different than single
class characters, they just have a wider area of interest. So as such in
order for our fighter/thief to increase in level I sum the number of
experience necessary to go to the next level for all their classes and that
is what they need, this keeps them from having differing levels.
So in order for our first level fighter/thief to make it to second level
he would need 3250 experience (2000 for the fighter part + 1250 for the
thief part). Once they achieve 3250 experience they get all fighter 2nd
level abilities and 2nd level thief abilities.
Using this method multi-class characters no longer need to divide their
experience by the number of classes they have (although they do need to
sum the experience for their levels, but this only needs to be done once).
They are also no longer penalized in hit points (I have always been
irritated that a 3/3 Fighter/MU has less hit points on the average than
a 3rd level fighter. I mean is he or is he not as good a fighter if he's
not then he's not 3rd level, if he is then he should have the same average
hit points). This also solves level problems that arise like, "Is a 3/3
Fighter/Thief affected by sleep?" or "Where do the levels come from when
hit by level draining creatures?". There is now only 1 level and all of
these questions are easily answered.
Lastly, I know these aren't "official" rules, just the ones that I use.
I have posted them because SOME people might find them interesting and
possibly use them (I realize that they aren't for everyone).
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
dk...@cas.org
that discussion there was some debate as to whether or not a MR creature could
voluntarily fail a MR roll or voluntarily lower their resistance.
Of the 2 sides I was on the voluntarily fail a MR roll because the MR rules
state that a creatures MR doesn't adversly affect their spellcasting (so
when a MR creature casts a spell on themself, like cure light wounds, they
wouldn't be hindered by their own MR). The other side argued that the MR
rules say that a creature can voluntarily lower their MR (which would allow
the creature to heal itself), but then their MR is down for a period of
time (since the amount of time wasn't specified in the rules, debate put
it anywhere from 1 segment to 1 round), leaving them vunerable to other
magics. They also argued that lowering their MR and failing a MR roll
are 2 different things (I agreed).
Well after all of this I can finally get to the point. I found, by accident,
a section of the rules which may help clarify this. It wasn't in the MR
section, so that's why none of us found it or used it in our debate. It
is in the PHB on page 87 in the middle column under saving throws, and it
reads:
"Any character can voluntarily forgo a saving throw. This allows a spell
or similar attack that normally grants a saving throw to have full effect
on the character. Likewise, any creature can voluntarily lower its magic
resistance allowing A SPELL [my emphasis] to automatically function when
cast on it."
Now this still uses the phrase lower MR, but puts it in terms of a spell
not all spells that round to function. Also if you read further (I
didn't want to type it all in) it also refers to voluntarily failing
a saving throw as a creature lowering its resistance.
Since they are described in the same place, using the same terminology,
no time period for the MR remaining down is ever mentioned, and the MR
rules state that a creatures MR doesn't adversly affect its ability to
cast/use magic, I believe that they are used in the same way.
This is not in any way meant to assert that I am right (I have already
made the decision on how it works in my campaign), just to put more
evidence out there (that wasn't discussed before) to help others make
their decision.
dk...@cas.org
>
> Well, it's pretty obvious every DM has his/her favourite methods...
>
> Consider this: A multiclass fighter/mage/thief will take approx 3
>times as much time to gain a level as a single class character. This is a
>fact. Therefore, when one considers the low hitpoints of a multiclass
>character NO MATTER WHAT METHOD YOU USE, that character at 4/3/4 (a
>believable set of numbers) with average hit points will be at approx 22
>hit points (with a Con bonus of 2). Now, this is low, particularly when
>you consider any accompanying single class characters, i.e. a fighter,
>will be at approx 8th level with an average of approx 60 (with a Con bonus
>of 2).
This is probably one of the biggest misconceptions that I have seen in my
15+ years of gaming. A multi-class character with two classes most of the
time is only 1 level behind (in both classes) to his single class counter-
part and a triple classed character is only about 1.5 levels behind.
These rates are much lower than what you sited above (4/3/4 -vs 8), I'll
show you using your example. Your 4/3/4 Ftr/Mu/Thief could have 8,000
experience in all 3 classes (this would yield the levels 4/3/4) for a
total of 24,000 experience. Now if he was a single class fighter he
24,000 experience would yield 5th level (not 8th), 1 level behind in
2 classes and 2 levels behind in 1 class, yielding an average hit point
total of 37.5 not 60.
Now don't take this to mean that I support the way hit points are done
with multi-class characters (I don't see my previous post). I just
wanted to help get rid of a common misconception.
Aaron Ranta
>A while ago there was an interesting discussion about magic resistance. During
>that discussion there was some debate as to whether or not a MR creature could
>voluntarily fail a MR roll or voluntarily lower their resistance.
>
Hey, I brought this up a while back... but the point was more or less
ignored by all. =)
>Well after all of this I can finally get to the point. I found, by accident,
>a section of the rules which may help clarify this. It wasn't in the MR
>section, so that's why none of us found it or used it in our debate. It
>is in the PHB on page 87 in the middle column under saving throws, and it
>reads:
>
>"Any character can voluntarily forgo a saving throw. This allows a spell
>or similar attack that normally grants a saving throw to have full effect
>on the character. Likewise, any creature can voluntarily lower its magic
>resistance allowing A SPELL [my emphasis] to automatically function when
>cast on it."
>
>Now this still uses the phrase lower MR, but puts it in terms of a spell
>not all spells that round to function. Also if you read further (I
>didn't want to type it all in) it also refers to voluntarily failing
>a saving throw as a creature lowering its resistance.
>
Basing an interpretation on the fact there is no 's' on 'spell' is
a bit weak. =) Though the whole argument is weak (on both sides)
as there is very little, if any, rulings to support either side.
Personaly, I think the afore mentioned bit is a faulty interpretation
(IMO) since even when 'voluntarily'
failing a save, you have no idea (for the most part) what spell you're
being hit with. It even describes the actual effects of this to some
degree (ie: the creature chooses not to try and dodge, etc).
Personaly, I take the MR down for the entire segment in which the
person wants a spell to affect them... opening them up to any and
all magics that occur in the same segment. And no way can they lower
it unconsciously. Thus healing an unconscious MR creature is always
a pain. Or casting a spell they don't know is coming, though it is
benificial anyway. (MR and chant spells don't mix)
>Since they are described in the same place, using the same terminology,
>no time period for the MR remaining down is ever mentioned, and the MR
>rules state that a creatures MR doesn't adversly affect its ability to
>cast/use magic, I believe that they are used in the same way.
>
actualy, the rules are slightly contradictory, in places, about whether
MR affects ones ability to cast/use magic.
(check out Al Quadim on the effects of MR on a drow sha'ir)
Aaron
dk...@cas.org
>In article <1994Jul21.1...@chemabs.uucp>, <dk...@cas.org> wrote:
>>A while ago there was an interesting discussion about magic resistance. During
>>that discussion there was some debate as to whether or not a MR creature could
>>voluntarily fail a MR roll or voluntarily lower their resistance.
>>
>
>Hey, I brought this up a while back... but the point was more or less
>ignored by all. =)
>
>>Well after all of this I can finally get to the point. I found, by accident,
>>a section of the rules which may help clarify this. It wasn't in the MR
>>section, so that's why none of us found it or used it in our debate. It
>>is in the PHB on page 87 in the middle column under saving throws, and it
>>reads:
>>
>>"Any character can voluntarily forgo a saving throw. This allows a spell
>>or similar attack that normally grants a saving throw to have full effect
>>on the character. Likewise, any creature can voluntarily lower its magic
>>resistance allowing A SPELL [my emphasis] to automatically function when
>>cast on it."
>>
>>Now this still uses the phrase lower MR, but puts it in terms of a spell
>>not all spells that round to function. Also if you read further (I
>>didn't want to type it all in) it also refers to voluntarily failing
>>a saving throw as a creature lowering its resistance.
>>
>
>Basing an interpretation on the fact there is no 's' on 'spell' is
>a bit weak. =)
Where did you get this, no where in my paragraph for my reasons
did I include they left an S of spell as a valid reason. I
include the relevent paragraph below.
>>Since they are describe in ths same place, using the SAME TERMONOLOGY
>>[my emphasis], no time period for the MR remaining dow is EVER [my
>>emphasis] mentioned, and the MR rules state that a creatures MR
>>doesn't adversly affect its ability to cast/use magic, I believe
>>that they are used in the same way.
This is the paragraph where I stated my supporting arguments for the
ruling and I don't see an S was left off of spell listed there.
>Though the whole argument is weak (on both sides) as ther is very
>little, if any, rulings to support either side.
I disagree. When you apply a ruling that the MR stays down for 1
segment or 1 round you are introducing a new factor to MR which
drastically changes its operation and there are no rules to support
this (if this is how it was intended they would have mentioned a
time period for it to remain down).
On the other hand lowering your MR is described in the same manner
and SECTION as voluntarily failing a saving throw, this IS evidence
that they work the same way (i.e., for a single spell only, granted
you MAY not know the effects of the spell before hand, but if you
are casting on yourself, you would). No drastically unmentioned
changes here.
>Personaly, I think the afore mentioned bit is a faulty interpretation
>(IMO) since even when 'voluntarily'
>failing a save, you have no idea (for the most part) what spell you're
>being hit with. It even describes the actual effects of this to some
>degree (ie: the creature chooses not to try and dodge, etc).
If you are casting on yourself you would know the effects (which is
what this thread was about, Drow casting spells on themselves sometimes
fail, no way).
>Personaly, I take the MR down for the entire segment in which the
>person wants a spell to affect them... opening them up to any and
>all magics that occur in the same segment.
If this works for you fine, but there's no rules support for this.
>And no way can they lower
>it unconsciously. Thus healing an unconscious MR creature is always
>a pain. Or casting a spell they don't know is coming, though it is
>benificial anyway.
I agree with this 100%.
>>Since they are described in the same place, using the same terminology,
>>no time period for the MR remaining down is ever mentioned, and the MR
>>rules state that a creatures MR doesn't adversly affect its ability to
>>cast/use magic, I believe that they are used in the same way.
>>
>
>actualy, the rules are slightly contradictory, in places, about whether
>MR affects ones ability to cast/use magic.
>(check out Al Quadim on the effects of MR on a drow sha'ir)
I don't have that (so I don't know), but it sounds like a special case
to me (maybe this creature can't lower it for 1 reason or another). If
that's the case then it doesn't applie to MR in general (like Dwarven
saving throw bonuses based on Con for magic are a special case and dont
apply to all races).
Andrew Arcand - ACPS/W94
: These rates are much lower than what you sited above (4/3/4 -vs 8), I'll
: show you using your example. Your 4/3/4 Ftr/Mu/Thief could have 8,000
: experience in all 3 classes (this would yield the levels 4/3/4) for a
: total of 24,000 experience. Now if he was a single class fighter he
: 24,000 experience would yield 5th level (not 8th), 1 level behind in
: 2 classes and 2 levels behind in 1 class, yielding an average hit point
: total of 37.5 not 60.
Ok, this is going to take some explaining. I agree with you that
if the DM is giving out XP equally to every character that this will be
the case. It has not, however, been my experience that this is the case.
In most games I have DM'd or played in, multiclass characters tend to be
considerably weaker than single class characters and thus, have less
opportunity for using their, albeit considerable in number, skills for
fear of dying fairly instantaneously.
Now, this discussion could very easily erupt into a DM style
argument and before it does, I would like to clarify that my players enjoy
a complex, intrigue filled world which houses a campaign of an epic
nature. This essentially means a power game where dying is a
relatively simple matter. Low hit points such as multiclass characters
have mean an extremely careful approach to any venture taken. And thus,
also mean a lower garnering of XP for that character as opposed to those
more able to meet their adversaries head on.
NOTE: Many will dissagree with this, but I'm not asking you to
agree with my methods of play, merely to understand my reasoning...
Truls Pärsson
>>Since they are described in the same place, using the same terminology,
<>no time period for the MR remaining down is ever mentioned, and the MR
>>rules state that a creatures MR doesn't adversly affect its ability to
>>cast/use magic, I believe that they are used in the same way.
>>
>actualy, the rules are slightly contradictory, in places, about whether
>MR affects ones ability to cast/use magic.
>(check out Al Quadim on the effects of MR on a drow sha'ir)
When creating magical effects there are two steps.
1 You cast the spell/use the wand etc.
2 The magic is recieved (hit by a fireball/healed by a cure spell etc.)
The first part isn't affected by the creatures MR as it says in the rules. And
one doesn't have to lower any MR either.
The second part however is affected by MR no matter who is behind the magic
effect. A MR resistant creature can easily lower his MR to recive a spell from
himself however it would be affected by his MR when he raises his MR again if
the spell would normally be affected by MR. Thus he could without any problems
cast a cure spell on himself but he couldn't cast a chant spell unless it beats
his resistance.
The Troll (a.k.a Truls Pärsson)
dk...@cas.org
>dk...@cas.org wrote:
>
>: These rates are much lower than what you sited above (4/3/4 -vs 8), I'll
>: show you using your example. Your 4/3/4 Ftr/Mu/Thief could have 8,000
>: experience in all 3 classes (this would yield the levels 4/3/4) for a
>: total of 24,000 experience. Now if he was a single class fighter he
>: 24,000 experience would yield 5th level (not 8th), 1 level behind in
>: 2 classes and 2 levels behind in 1 class, yielding an average hit point
>: total of 37.5 not 60.
>
>
> Ok, this is going to take some explaining. I agree with you that
>if the DM is giving out XP equally to every character that this will be
>the case. It has not, however, been my experience that this is the case.
>In most games I have DM'd or played in, multiclass characters tend to be
>considerably weaker than single class characters and thus, have less
>opportunity for using their, albeit considerable in number, skills for
>fear of dying fairly instantaneously.
This should not be the case since at 1st level the combo above has more
average hit points than a 1st level mage or thief and has 3 times the
abilities of any single classed character, so should be recieving more
experience (because he will be doing more) than the single classed
characters (if you give experience for what actions characters perform).
> Now, this discussion could very easily erupt into a DM style
>argument and before it does, I would like to clarify that my players enjoy
>a complex, intrigue filled world which houses a campaign of an epic
>nature. This essentially means a power game where dying is a
>relatively simple matter. Low hit points such as multiclass characters
>have mean an extremely careful approach to any venture taken. And thus,
>also mean a lower garnering of XP for that character as opposed to those
>more able to meet their adversaries head on.
>
> NOTE: Many will dissagree with this, but I'm not asking you to
>agree with my methods of play, merely to understand my reasoning...
You're right that this has now become a DM style discussion (and has nothing
to do with my post), but from what you have said this particular style
precludes mages and thieves from surviving. Not a very good style in my
opinion.
Again I would like to point out I do not support the way in which
multi-class characters get hit points under the current system which
is why I use my own (previous post).
dk...@cas.org
I agree with this 100%.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Ismo Peltonen
dk...@cas.org wrote:
> I don't think of multi-class characters as being any different than single
> class characters, they just have a wider area of interest. So as such in
> order for our fighter/thief to increase in level I sum the number of
> experience necessary to go to the next level for all their classes and that
> is what they need, this keeps them from having differing levels.
As we like more flexibility, we use the rule that one gains only half
the hp (for two-classed, one third for three-classed) and so on, and the
player keeps track of each classes experience separately, dividing the
experience as he wants and the DM allows (ie. within plausible limits)
so he can better control advancement of the character as he sees fit.
An example of this could be my two-classed character who breaks the
rules in several cases.. He's an elf, multiclassed to <Skald>/Druid
(Skald is a bad name for the class, but Bard is already used in the
book.. Anyway, the class was created using DMG2 system to represent a
kind of ranger/bard mix - more info available via email, but I found it
fairly hard to create the character concept without this kind of tricks)
with >100k exp in <Skald> class and <4000 in Druid. I took this example
because it was as extreme as I could find, the usual division is such
that two-classed characters have 1/3 - 1/2 in lesser and 1/2 - 2/3 in
greater class, three-classed something like 1/4 - 1/3 in lesser and 1/3
- 1/2 in greater class.
> Using this method multi-class characters no longer need to divide their
> experience by the number of classes they have (although they do need to
> sum the experience for their levels, but this only needs to be done once).
> They are also no longer penalized in hit points (I have always been
> irritated that a 3/3 Fighter/MU has less hit points on the average than
> a 3rd level fighter. I mean is he or is he not as good a fighter if he's
> not then he's not 3rd level, if he is then he should have the same average
> hit points). This also solves level problems that arise like, "Is a 3/3
> Fighter/Thief affected by sleep?" or "Where do the levels come from when
> hit by level draining creatures?". There is now only 1 level and all of
> these questions are easily answered.
Still that's fairly harsh on the multiclassed characters: they lose
about twice(thrice) the exp a single-classed character would lose if a
level is drained due to their levels being twice(thrice) as expensive,
also they should be treated a little higher than their level in several
other cases (like `does the spell affect them').
I'd say they should be treated as if they were of level achievable with
their total exp in that class they'd be of lowest level.
> As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
My opinions are of course official, non-registered but copyrighted where
appropriate, and so on :-) Put them into use if You like, but I'd like
to hear how they work for You in that case.
> Dave.
--
Disclaimer: It's years since I've GM'd (A)D&D, and I play it only
occasionally. I read this group for the fun of it, and for ideas.
Elandal (aka Ismo Peltonen) ## snail Hanuripolku 5B15
Home (UUCP) Ismo.P...@tower.nullnet.fi ## mail 00420 Helsinki
Univ (inet) Ismo.P...@Helsinki.FI ## Finland
Errare humanum est.. ## phone +358-0-537515
Aaron Ranta
Ah... so any spell with a duration is going to force the MR character
to keep his MR down for the entire spell duration, else force a check
vs his MR each round? Thus Invisibility, polymorph, infravision, etc etc...
all would have a hell of a time surviving from round to round?
'Least this seems to be how what you're saying.
byb... I think I'd have to agree. =)
A
dk...@cas.org
Not quite, keeping it down for the entire duration would ensure the spells
operation, but putting it back up only ends up in ONE MR roll. If MR roll
is successful the spell fails, if the MR roll fails then the spell works
throughout its entire duration (No MR roll each round).
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
dk...@cas.org
dk...@cas.org
>In article <1994Jul21.1...@chemabs.uucp>
> dk...@cas.org wrote:
>
>> Using this method multi-class characters no longer need to divide their
>> experience by the number of classes they have (although they do need to
>> sum the experience for their levels, but this only needs to be done once).
>> They are also no longer penalized in hit points (I have always been
>> irritated that a 3/3 Fighter/MU has less hit points on the average than
>> a 3rd level fighter. I mean is he or is he not as good a fighter if he's
>> not then he's not 3rd level, if he is then he should have the same average
>> hit points). This also solves level problems that arise like, "Is a 3/3
>> Fighter/Thief affected by sleep?" or "Where do the levels come from when
>> hit by level draining creatures?". There is now only 1 level and all of
>> these questions are easily answered.
>
>Still that's fairly harsh on the multiclassed characters: they lose
>about twice(thrice) the exp a single-classed character would lose if a
>level is drained due to their levels being twice(thrice) as expensive,
>also they should be treated a little higher than their level in several
>other cases (like `does the spell affect them').
>I'd say they should be treated as if they were of level achievable with
>their total exp in that class they'd be of lowest level.
No, not really. Its not that different than how the rules currently do it
(in fact I'd rather have it done this way). In the example on page 45 of
the PHB (last paragraph) the 3/4 cleric/fighter is struck by a wight
losing 1 level from his fighter class (his highest), but now that they are
the same level he loses 1 level from each for each successful hit. Not
only that, but until he gets his old levels back he can only be one class.
He can switch classes between adventures, but until he gets both of them
back to where they were (restoration or earning the experience seperatly)
he can only use one class at a time (Yech!). So once the levels are
even, the current rules have the character losing all the classes at
once as well.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Stephen Buza
: Consider this: A multiclass fighter/mage/thief will take approx 3
: times as much time to gain a level as a single class character. This is a
: fact.
Andrew,
AD&D was designed this way on purpose. Humans can not be
multi-classed characters like demihumans can. Demihumans also have a
much longer lifespan in which to gain levels. So to balance the
differences 1) Multi-classed (read demihuman) characters will advance
more slowly; and 2) demihumans have level restrictions. This
balances the differences between the races. I don't think it should
be screwed with.
Steve
IMHO, of course.
Per Landberger EUA/LA 357.082 5630
Well, if you follow the 2nd edition XP rules generically it still doesn't have
to be like that:
All of the group split the killed monster XP, no matter who did what. A fair
amount of XP is given for roleplaying and for "completion of an adventure",
you don't need to be powerful to get good XP for roleplaying, and completion XP
is divided equally.
Then to the individual awards:
The fighter gets extra XP for killing,
Spellusers for using spells and
Thieves for thieving abilities and gold found.
My fighter/mage/thief (mentioned in previous articles, the one who got
beaten uncontious too often) is actually one of the characters in our
group that has the most XP. Ok, he doesn't kill as many as the fighter does, but
he still gets some extra XP that the mage, etc doesn't, he uses some spells,
again less than the mage, but some, and finally he gets XP for the gold found,
something noone else does. Sum it up and it's a great deal.
Per Landberger
eua...@eua.ericsson.se
fiz...@lestat.shv.hb.se
Andrew Arcand - ACPS/W94
: In article 15...@hermes.acs.ryerson.ca, aar...@acs.ryerson.ca (Andrew Arcand - ACPS/W94) writes:
: >dk...@cas.org wrote:
: >
: Well, if you follow the 2nd edition XP rules generically it still doesn't have
: to be like that:
(chuckle) Since when has a DM ever actually followed the "rules".
There is very little in my games that resembles the rules as they
were written. And besides that, the 2nd edition is a joke. The point of
DND is that the books were written as guidelines, not rules...
Marc Sherman
> >
> > Ok, this is going to take some explaining. I agree with you that
> >if the DM is giving out XP equally to every character that this will be
> >the case. It has not, however, been my experience that this is the case.
> >In most games I have DM'd or played in, multiclass characters tend to be
> >considerably weaker than single class characters and thus, have less
> >opportunity for using their, albeit considerable in number, skills for
> >fear of dying fairly instantaneously.
On the other hand, a multi-classed character has a far greater range
of abilities to use, and therefore many more oportunities to use a
class ability (for which the experiance points aren't usually divided)
for gain in a role-playing, non-combat situation.
--
+-----------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Marc Sherman - 3c SysDesEng | "Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey's got |
| University of Waterloo | no point of view. Captain points and |
| mshe...@zeus.uwaterloo.ca | he points too, clever monkey!" - LPD |
+-----------------------------+--------------------------------------+
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+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Steve Gilham
> character (i.e., a Fighter/Magic User)? Also, how do you determine
> constitution bonuses for a first level multi-class character?
> Next, how do you determine HP's for each character class level (i.e., second
> level Fighter/first level Magic User)? And again how do you determine
> constitution bonuses?
> If you could point me towards any references in the DMG or the PHB I would
> appreciate it.
> Emil H. Gallant - egal...@borland.com - Opinions expressed are mine.
I know I'm coming into this late, but my preferred solution is to replace
multi-classing by building a custom character class from the tables in
the DMG2. This way you know what your hit-dice at each level are, and
whether you get a +2 ceiling on your CON bonus, and you aren't faced
with the problem of going up a level in one class and not the other
and wondering what extra HP you get at that point.
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