{echelon} Domain Talents
Keith Davies
just a quick thought on how domains (divinely-granted power) might work
in Echelon.
In 3.x, a domain gives a cleric a power and some extra spell knowledge
that may be used in a limited spell slot for each spell level each day.
This is okay, as far as it goes, but not all powers scale with level,
and domains are only usable by clerics.
I'd like to expand on both of these. In general terms (I don't have my
books here to provide concrete examples),
1. Each domain is a talent, granting a different ability at each tier.
Expert Domain (Healing) might allow you to channel to /lay on hands/,
Heroic may allow you to channel to apply a /lesser restoration/, and
so on. This effect only works if you have Divine Channelling at the
tier of the domain talent.
2. Each domain acts as School Knowledge, treating the domain as a school
of magic, at the same tier. 'Expert Domain (Healing)' might allow a
caster to use complex (Healing) spells; without it, he would be
limited to only simple (Healing) spells. This effect only works if
you have Spell Training at the tier of the domain talent.
I might expand this slightly, and consider these spells on the
character's 'spell list' for the purpose of spell completion and
spell trigger items. I'd probably want to have some simple spells on
the domain list if I do this, it seems silly that he could use
scrolls or wands of complex spells, but not simpler ones of similar
nature. He may be limited to scrolls of caster level no higher than
half his HD, but he could use a scroll or wand of /cure light wounds/
if he needed to -- but probably not /fireball/.
For greatest effect, clearly you want a character to have both Divine
Channelling and Spell Training. This will give him access to the
channelling effect and the increased spell knowledge.
It isn't necessary to invest in both, though. You could reasonably have
a holy warrior with Divine Channelling, Martial Training, and Domain who
can call directly on his god's power. You could also have a holy wizard
with Spell Training and Domain who cannot do so, but has broader spell
knowledge than he would otherwise.
Hrm. Two slots at level 4n+1 is a bit of a limitation, I can see a lot
of builds that would want at least three -- but they get sorted out by
level 4n+2, so I'm not hugely excited about providing more slots. I'm
already thinking of 2/2/3/3, which adds up to a lot.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
keith....@kjdavies.org to bear the things you can't change, and
keith....@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off for
http://www.kjdavies.org/ another beer." -- Owen, discussing work
Keith Davies
>
> For greatest effect, clearly you want a character to have both Divine
> Channelling and Spell Training. This will give him access to the
> channelling effect and the increased spell knowledge.
After further consideration, I'm not entirely sure this is worth the tax
of Divine Channelling, if only because I can't think of anything
specific for Divine Channelling to do. If possible, I want each talent
to provide either a measurable effect (bonus to something) or an ability
you otherwise wouldn't have (ability to heal damage with a touch).
I'm considering dropping 'Divine Channelling' as a specific talent. It
gives access to an ability, but doesn't itself particularly do anything.
Instead, I think divine talents might give you a number of daily uses of
the talent equal to the tier of the talent. Take Master Domain
(Healing), you can use the Healing domain power three times per day,
chosen from the options available through the domain power. For the
Healing domain, this might be /lay on hands/ (three days' healing each
time), /lesser restoration/ (two day's healing each time), and
/restoration/, usable three times per day total, in any combination.
I'd have to compare /lesser restoration/ to /restoration/ to see if
this is an appropriate step up, so it may well change, or the powers
might be entirely different anyway... but for the sake of the example,
it'll do.
For those with divine talents, I may throw in an additional number of
daily uses equal to the character's base Will save (level bonus +
training bonus), but I haven't decided. This might be an 'Extra
Channelling' talent or something instead.
By removing the need for Divine Channelling as a tax, this gets us to
the point where a cleric starts off almost where he would in 3.x RAW
(Spell Training and one Domain, instead of Spell Training and two
Domains).
Hadsil
> keith.dav...@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off forhttp://www.kjdavies.org/ another beer." -- Owen, discussing work
Just use 3E's path of divine feats. Make Divine Channeling the
ability to Turn Undead by whatever means you use for the game
mechanics of turning undead instead of a distinct use for which you
had to select another talent for the ability to turn undead using
channeling. Talents which have Divine Channeling as a prerequisite
uses up a Turn Undead attempt when you use it. If necessary, Divine
Channeling could itself have a prerequisite of divine spellcasting,
unless you don't particularly mind a "holy" fighter or wizard who
while not casting divine spells can still call forth the power of
their god.
Gerald Katz
Keith Davies
>
> Just use 3E's path of divine feats. Make Divine Channeling the
> ability to Turn Undead by whatever means you use for the game
> mechanics of turning undead instead of a distinct use for which you
> had to select another talent for the ability to turn undead using
> channeling. Talents which have Divine Channeling as a prerequisite
> uses up a Turn Undead attempt when you use it. If necessary, Divine
> Channeling could itself have a prerequisite of divine spellcasting,
> unless you don't particularly mind a "holy" fighter or wizard who
> while not casting divine spells can still call forth the power of
> their god.
Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
I wouldn't have divine spell casting as a prereq for exactly the reason
you mention -- I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
can channel, but cannot cast spells.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
keith....@kjdavies.org to bear the things you can't change, and
keith....@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off for
David Lamb
> Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
> alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
Hmm. Scaring away / banishing undead is a pretty classic fantasy trope.
Would you put in something at least somewhat related instead?
> I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
> can channel, but cannot cast spells.
Me, too; I was playing around ideas for a Paladin-like class with no
spells but instead a variety of channelling effects.
Tetsubo
> Hadsil <foru...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>>Just use 3E's path of divine feats. Make Divine Channeling the
>>ability to Turn Undead by whatever means you use for the game
>>mechanics of turning undead instead of a distinct use for which you
>>had to select another talent for the ability to turn undead using
>>channeling. Talents which have Divine Channeling as a prerequisite
>>uses up a Turn Undead attempt when you use it. If necessary, Divine
>>Channeling could itself have a prerequisite of divine spellcasting,
>>unless you don't particularly mind a "holy" fighter or wizard who
>>while not casting divine spells can still call forth the power of
>>their god.
>
>
> Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
> alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
>
> I wouldn't have divine spell casting as a prereq for exactly the reason
> you mention -- I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
> can channel, but cannot cast spells.
>
>
> Keith
I really like a power that causes undead damage rather than just drives
them away. Driving them away is short sighted and rather selfish. Best
to deal with them in the here and now.
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57
Hadsil
> Hadsil <forum...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> > Just use 3E's path of divine feats. Make Divine Channeling the
> > ability to Turn Undead by whatever means you use for the game
> > mechanics of turning undead instead of a distinct use for which you
> > had to select another talent for the ability to turn undead using
> > channeling. Talents which have Divine Channeling as a prerequisite
> > uses up a Turn Undead attempt when you use it. If necessary, Divine
> > Channeling could itself have a prerequisite of divine spellcasting,
> > unless you don't particularly mind a "holy" fighter or wizard who
> > while not casting divine spells can still call forth the power of
> > their god.
>
> Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
> alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
>
> I wouldn't have divine spell casting as a prereq for exactly the reason
> you mention -- I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
> can channel, but cannot cast spells.
>
> Keith
> --
> Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
It's an iconic ability of clerics.
Gerald Katz
Hadsil
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is what Pathfinder does. You can take a feat that drives them
away. The feat is more powerful than original Turn Undead because it
turns away all undead you damage regardless of their hit dice or
yours.
Gerald Katz
Keith Davies
> On Dec 21, 1:27�pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> Hadsil <forum...@netzero.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Just use 3E's path of divine feats. �Make Divine Channeling the
>> > ability to Turn Undead by whatever means you use for the game
>> > mechanics of turning undead instead of a distinct use for which you
>> > had to select another talent for the ability to turn undead using
>> > channeling. �Talents which have Divine Channeling as a prerequisite
>> > uses up a Turn Undead attempt when you use it. �If necessary, Divine
>> > Channeling could itself have a prerequisite of divine spellcasting,
>> > unless you don't particularly mind a "holy" fighter or wizard who
>> > while not casting divine spells can still call forth the power of
>> > their god.
>>
>> Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
>> alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
>>
>> I wouldn't have divine spell casting as a prereq for exactly the reason
>> you mention -- I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
>> can channel, but cannot cast spells.
>
So?
I'm not afraid to have characters that act like clerics. I don't feel
that I need to have all clerics be the same -- that's how this whole
mess started.
I may or may not include Turn Undead as a divine channelling option, it
depends a lot on whether or not I plan to have undead at all. I'm
pretty sure I don't want it as the built-in ability for all divine
channellers.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
Keith Davies
> Keith Davies wrote:
>> Thing is, I'm not certain I want Turn Undead in the game at all, let
>> alone as the default effect for Divine Channelling.
>
> Hmm. Scaring away / banishing undead is a pretty classic fantasy trope.
> Would you put in something at least somewhat related instead?
An alternative, I expect. It may or may not be of this nature, though.
A martial channeller ('holy warrior') is likely to have smite abilities,
or various protections (such as SR vs. effects of opposing alignments),
or other things that are thematically appropriate.
As I replied to Hadsil, the existence of Turn Undead is predicated on
the existence of undead at all. I don't think it would suit as the
ability all channellers have, though some may.
>> I absolutely do want to be able to have characters who
>> can channel, but cannot cast spells.
>
> Me, too; I was playing around ideas for a Paladin-like class with no
> spells but instead a variety of channelling effects.
That's one of the options in Echelon -- martial talents + channelling
talents = holy warrior. Add in the Mounted facet ('Skill Focus: Ride',
which leads through the various core mounted feats) and you get a
knightly holy warrior. Pretty simple.
David Lamb
> On Dec 21, 2:57 pm, Tetsubo <tets...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I really like a power that causes undead damage rather than just drives
>> them away. Driving them away is short sighted and rather selfish. Best
>> to deal with them in the here and now.
> away. The feat is more powerful than original Turn Undead because it
> turns away all undead you damage regardless of their hit dice or
> yours.
I think the Pathfinder approach is better than the standard 3.5 rule --
but neither matches the "hold off undead by presenting holy symbol"
trope -- but maybe that was a stupid trope. I suppose Dracula should
just have hauled out a handgun and blasted the cross-wielder.
Tetsubo
Yep. Why villains don't avail themselves of the useful technology in
their current era is beyond me. Like modern vampires wearing body
armour. Or werewolves. Both are strong enough to ignore the weight and
it would save their supernatural bacon. Screw this 'macho' crap. If I
can live forever, I'm going to take out the competition from orbit if
possible.
But the 'stave them off' trope should be fairly easy to duplicate. Just
a temporary protective circle power. material component: holy symbol.
Duration: concentration.
Keith Davies
There's a fairly decent chance I'll take a similar approach, for this
purpose. I may still have a damaging option or alternative, of course.
Hadsil
> keith.dav...@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off forhttp://www.kjdavies.org/ another beer." -- Owen, discussing work- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
D&D without undead?
Now *that* would be a D&Dish game that's not D&D.
:)
Gerald Katz
Hadsil
> keith.dav...@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off forhttp://www.kjdavies.org/ another beer." -- Owen, discussing work
Make basic Divine Channeling a buff. You get a +2 sacred/unholy bonus
to attack rolls or AC, your choice, for 1 round per level, useable
3+CH modifier per day. Maybe make it +1 sacred/bonus per Tier level.
All further Channeling stuff, of which Turn Undead could be among
them, uses up those uses.
Gerald Katz
tussock
> I think the Pathfinder approach [to Turn Undead] is better than the
> standard 3.5 rule -- but neither matches the "hold off undead by
> presenting holy symbol" trope -- but maybe that was a stupid trope.
Well, when your god is The Sun reborn anew each winter solstice,
and all your undead are creatures of the night who exist only by
hiding away from The Sun, it makes sense that a faithful Cleric can
call forth the Light of God to send them fleeing in terror.
Not so much once undead are an expression of a more modern
misunderstanding of disease, and your God is just some guy who lived a
long time ago and seemed kinda nice most of the time, unlike his dad,
who was also him.
> I suppose Dracula should just have hauled out a handgun and blasted
> the cross-wielder.
This is why RPGs exist, you know.
--
tussock