Complaints about TSR Core Rules Expansion CD
Matt
Coast in the new(ish) "Core Rules 2.0 Expansion CD" is some of the WORST
code that can be imagined! Redundant nested tags abound, superfluous code
is the rule, unrenderable design and poor implementation characterize the
work, and there are even (gasp!) spelling mistakes!!!
The transformation of books into HTML requires only minimal intelligence.
The structure is there; all one needs to do is write good code and plan good
hypertext. Perhaps, as a web developer with these specializations, I take
for granted that such things can be done well accomplished efficiently
according to proven methods and processes (and there's even room for
creativity and style!). TSR/Wizards of the Coast/Evermore obviously just
don't care enough about us, their customers, to have taken the time to apply
rudimentary editorial process to this horrible implementation.
And, fyi, among the 20 books on the CD, only the Monstrous Manual includes
any illustrations.
-Matman
Matt
On the errors in the HTML of the Core Rules CD Expansion:
In fact, HomeSite (true, it's a bit strict) found 254 HTML errors in a
SINGLE PAGE!
Here's one example of their ridiculous footer (the atrocity varies greatly
too, so you can't globally apply fixes!)
<P>
<A HREF="DD04825.htm"></A></FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman" SIZE="3"><A
HREF="DD04825.htm">Table of Contents</A></FONT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="1">
<P>
</FONT></BODY>
</HTML>
Who wrote this thing? Even worse- who at TSR signed off on it???
I think that it was created using "Cursed Software -2" or after quaffing a
"potion of befuddlement"
Matt <ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote in message
news:zg9W3.35613$oa2.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
Smurflord
Matt wrote:
> <snip>
> And, fyi, among the 20 books on the CD, only the Monstrous Manual includes
> any illustrations.
Apart from the Monstous Manual, I have to say that the illustrations are of a
very poor quality. OK the 1st Ed illustrations were bad, but they were done by
the authours not professional artists, but the 2nd Ed stuff is bad and
comissioned from artists! I am quite happy for them to be removed, if it means a
faster and leaner resource.
Smurflord
Jeff Johnson
>
>I think that it was created using "Cursed Software -2"
Looks like it was done by a word processor's HTML converter. All the
ones I've seen do the same superfluous tagging - they do font tags for
each paragraph, or each section of manually formatted text, rather
than just where needed.
Since earlier e-versions of the TSR manuals were done in RTF, I'm
going to bet that they used Word 97 and did a 'save as' HTML, and
possibly cut out the meta tags that Word places.
The example you gave, BTW, wasn't that bad. Extra unneeded font tags,
but you didn't show any of the nesting problems you said were common.
--
Jeff Johnson
jsjo...@islandnet.com
Derek Broughton
> >Who wrote this thing? Even worse- who at TSR signed off on
it???
> >
> >I think that it was created using "Cursed Software -2"
>
> Looks like it was done by a word processor's HTML converter.
All the
> ones I've seen do the same superfluous tagging - they do font
tags for
> each paragraph, or each section of manually formatted text,
rather
> than just where needed.
>
> Since earlier e-versions of the TSR manuals were done in RTF,
I'm
> going to bet that they used Word 97 and did a 'save as' HTML,
and
> possibly cut out the meta tags that Word places.
Fortunately, they must not have used Word2000 - experiments with
that suggest that the resulting HTML wouldn't have fit on the CD!
I agree, it looks like the HTML I get out of Word 97.
Derk
Karsten Düsterloh
Matt:
> <P><A HREF="DD04825.htm"></A></FONT>
> <FONT FACE="Times New Roman" SIZE="3">
> <A HREF="DD04825.htm">Table of Contents</A></FONT>
> <FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="1"> <P> </FONT></BODY> </HTML>
Jeff:
> The example you gave, BTW, wasn't that bad. Extra unneeded font tags,
> but you didn't show any of the nesting problems you said were common.
If you regard the closing font tags as unneeded, you won't find any
nesting problems, that's true. But the're not just 'unneeded', they're
*WRONG*!
Karsten
--
I've got plenty of common sense -
I just choose to ignore it!
Calvin
Fsayannes SF&F-Bibliothek: http://fsayanne.home.pages.de/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Travis S. Casey
The 1st ed illustrations were done by professional artists -- and, IMHO,
many of them were quite good. Erol Otus and Jeff Dee, in particular, are
very good artists -- although their styles are not to everyone's tastes.
(Please note that I said, "many", not "all." Yes, there are some horrible
illustrations in the 1st edition books -- but there are also some very
good ones. Overall, the impression that 1st edition art gives me is that
most of it was rushed.
On the 2nd edition art -- which version of 2nd edition do you mean? The
art in the "black cover" books is completely different from that in the
original versions.)
If you want to see some *really* horrible illustrations, check out the
original D&D books. Some of the illustrations in there look like they
were done by someone's 12-year-old!
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efi...@io.com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Bruce Grubb
<ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote:
>For anyone interested, the HTML provided by Evermore and TSR/Wizards of the
>Coast in the new(ish) "Core Rules 2.0 Expansion CD" is some of the WORST
>code that can be imagined!
I take is you missed the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread back in August
here in rec.games.frp.dnd.
> Redundant nested tags abound, superfluous code
>is the rule, unrenderable design and poor implementation characterize the
>work, and there are even (gasp!) spelling mistakes!!!
Let's not forget the little gem Brandon Wallace shared with
rec.games.frp.dnd Aug 18, 1999 as the first post to _CR2 Expansion
Bug/Feature_:
"Okay, my CR2 Expansion CD just arrived and I've played around
with it a bit and like it. However, when I first heard that
the expansion will have the books in HTML format, I thought,
"Cool! I'll finally be able to access the books easily from
my unix box at work!"
Now that I've gotten the CD, I've discovered that all of the paths
embedded in the html docs use the backslash character(\)
as the path separator, instead of the internet standard
forward slash (/). This of course means that the links
do not work on a unix based machine."
As I pointed out later in that same thread this violates the RFC 1738 (Dec
1994) requirements <http://www.w3.org/Addressing/rfc1738.txt> of HTML up
one side and down the other.
Section 2.2 and section 2.3 (Hierarchical schemes) show that using the "\"
character for URL is is a major no no. The RFC 1738 spec is a part of
HTML 4.0 <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html>, was part of HTML
3.2 (Jan 1997) <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html32#dtd> and even HTML 2.0
(Nov 1995) <http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/rfc1866.txt>
The reasoning for not using this most basic of HTML standards must be read
to be believed.
>The transformation of books into HTML requires only minimal intelligence.
According to VPenman a program called Robohelp was used to generate the
HTML. My coments regarding this program's URL generation method is at
<http://x29.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516841162&CONTEXT=942249396.175570968&hitnum=5
>The structure is there; all one needs to do is write good code and plan good
>hypertext.
When one is letting a program do this and the program is doing something
really screwball with HTML then problems are going to be mvery evident.
> Perhaps, as a web developer with these specializations, I take
>for granted that such things can be done well accomplished efficiently
>according to proven methods and processes (and there's even room for
>creativity and style!). TSR/Wizards of the Coast/Evermore obviously just
>don't care enough about us, their customers, to have taken the time to apply
>rudimentary editorial process to this horrible implementation.
>
>And, fyi, among the 20 books on the CD, only the Monstrous Manual includes
>any illustrations.
> Who wrote this thing?
Ask VPenman <vpe...@aol.com>, hye seems to have a lot of knowledge
regarding the nitty gritty.
> Even worse- who at TSR signed off on it???
> I think that it was created using "Cursed Software -2" or after quaffing
> a "potion of befuddlement"
After going over the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread you will likely be
even more critial. "Cursed Software -2" preceeded by a quaffed "potion of
befuddlement" preceeded by a "ring of URL cluelessness" works for me
personally. :-)
Matt
news:80c7b3$rc6$1...@hiram.io.com...
> Smurflord <smur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
IMHO,
> many of them were quite good. Erol Otus and Jeff Dee, in particular, are
> very good artists -- although their styles are not to everyone's tastes
You fail to mention the superior work of David Trampier, who also created
"Wormy"
As for the thread, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Arms & Equipment
Guide" profusely illustrated?
Matt
Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and discourteous "official
reply" to our concerns...
'Matt,
The product works as intended. No additional reply is required.
I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
Victor'
I've discovered that the HTML was created using a tool called "RoboHelp" by
Blue-Sky software (www.blue-sky.com). It's FAR worse than the rtf->HTML
converter in Word/FrontPage97 (although I appreciate someone's comments
about the MS O2K converters and know of a workaround: write to
matman@_mysticworks.com after removing the underscore from the address
shown)
Bruce: are you related to Jeff Grubb?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote
> Ask VPenman <vpe...@aol.com>, he seems to have a lot of knowledge
> regarding the nitty gritty
VPenman
You posted an e-mail response from me to you in a newsgroup without my
permission or notifying me this would be happening. You neglected to post your
e-mail to me which would have put my response into context.
You misrepresented my response as "official" (your quotes, I never used that
word) and my relationship with Wizards of the Coast.
My communication with you is at an end.
Victor
Simon Rogers
on the target system?
--
We worship the inexorable god known as Dangott. Strangers are automatically
heretics, and so are fed to the sacred apes.
From the Dying Earth books by Jack Vance
Simon Rogers - http://www.profantasy.com
Smurflord <smur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3829AF05...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Matt wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > And, fyi, among the 20 books on the CD, only the Monstrous Manual
includes
> > any illustrations.
>
> Apart from the Monstous Manual, I have to say that the illustrations are
of a
> very poor quality. OK the 1st Ed illustrations were bad, but they were
done by
> the authours not professional artists, but the 2nd Ed stuff is bad and
> comissioned from artists! I am quite happy for them to be removed, if it
means a
> faster and leaner resource.
>
> Smurflord
>
CMuel59749
<ma...@dontbugme.com> writes:
>Hi Bruce/Group.
Aside from the fact that publicly posting a private email without the
permission of the author is a violation of nettiquette, I'd be interested in
seeing the original text of your email to him. That would put to rest questions
of whether you got the response you deserved or not.
You might also want to note that Victor Penman does not provide official
responses for WOTC.
Now quit trolling.
>
>Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
>responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and discourteous "official
>reply" to our concerns...
>
>'Matt,
>
>The product works as intended. No additional reply is required.
>
>I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
>
>Victor'
>
>I've discovered that the HTML was created using a tool called "RoboHelp" by
>Blue-Sky software (www.blue-sky.com). It's FAR worse than the rtf->HTML
>converter in Word/FrontPage97 (although I appreciate someone's comments
>about the MS O2K converters and know of a workaround: write to
>matman@_mysticworks.com after removing the underscore from the address
>shown)
>
>Bruce: are you related to Jeff Grubb?
Guardian (cmuel...@aol.comNoSpam or lone...@iname.comNoSpam)
Gothic Candles: http://www.gothic-candles.com
AD&D: http://members.aol.com/cmuel59749/index.html
Articles, tools, NPCs, Deities, Critters, Spells, Campaign Notes, and more!
Jefferson Krogh
> Hi Bruce/Group.
>
> Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
> responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and discourteous "official
> reply" to our concerns...
>
> 'Matt,
>
> The product works as intended. No additional reply is required.
>
> I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
>
> Victor'
Ummm....let's see what you sent him, dude. It's considered extremely rude for
you to post private e-mail to a newsgroup without the sender's permission. For
all we know, you might have indeed been patronizing and self-serving in what you
sent him!!!
--
Jefferson Krogh, MCSE
IS Manager
Kennerley-Spratling, Inc.
Matt
time employee. Perhaps there's hope yet... He seems to work for EverMore,
the two-bit third party subcontracted developer who somehow managed to pull
the wool over a WOTC project manager's eyes when it came time for sign-off
on these HTML files. The software that EverMore (www.evermore88.com) used
was called RoboHelp, by "Blue Sky" (www.blue-sky.com. I'll stay away from
anything done by either of these companies and I suggest you do too.
In a previous posting, however, I made a stupid assertion (see below), when
I declared that the discourteous Vic Penman was employed byWizards of the
Coast and that he represented their "official" stance on the low low quality
of these files. He does not. I had forgotten I sent a CC of my complaint
to ever...@evermore88.com It was Vic's timely reply to my complaint that
began our small fray.
It is my firm recomendation after dealing with Vic Penman of Evermore that
the consumer recognize the poor quality of his company's service with regard
to concerns for its low quality workmanship. As for the man, Vic has
obviously fended off a lot of complaining from members of the audience his
company so sorely undersetimated, and this has left his patience quite thin.
Be sure to direct any complaints directly to Wizards of the Coast and let
them know you think they need a new developer, or, if you prefer to be a
thorn in the side of a rogue, write to Vic Penman at Evermore and let him
know his company needs to get a new HTML parser.
Meanwhile, for those of you who've not yet seen them, I'll collect specific
examples of bad code and post them here, elsewhere on USENET, and on the
web.
Matt Picone
mat...@mysticworks.com
Matt <ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote in message
news:5XhW3.35846$oa2.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
> Hi Bruce/Group.
>
> Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
> responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and discourteous
"official
> reply" to our concerns...
>
> 'Matt,
>
> The product works as intended. No additional reply is required.
>
> I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
>
> Victor'
>
> I've discovered that the HTML was created using a tool called "RoboHelp"
by
> Blue-Sky software (www.blue-sky.com). It's FAR worse than the rtf->HTML
> converter in Word/FrontPage97 (although I appreciate someone's comments
> about the MS O2K converters and know of a workaround: write to
> matman@_mysticworks.com after removing the underscore from the address
> shown)
>
> Bruce: are you related to Jeff Grubb?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt
to quote email in a newsgroup.
This went out in response to a short two sentence reply to my inquiry about
the flawed HTML in the Core Rules CD.:
> Wow Vic. What a reply. That's really not to be expected from a company
like yours.
> "Work as expected" is the kind of quality assurance behind such fiascos as
the Corvair and the
> Space Shuttle Challenger. True, no one's life is on the line here, but in
fact, your company's
> reputation in the electronic products market is, and it will indeed suffer
for this careless bumble.
> Sure, YOU may see these files as "good enough" but when future generations
of [company]
> developers look to the archive to provide coded versions of these works,
they too, if they
> know anything about their work, will be sorely disappointed by the
instability of these files
> for anything except rudimentary display in the crudest browser.
>
> Your curt manner, on the other hand, I find insulting, and I wonder if you
didn't mean to say something like:
>
> "We at [my company] have the highest standards for our work. We take
concerns such
> as yours seriously and I will pass along your observations to the
appropriate parties.
> Thank you for your time and assistance."
>
> Vic, do yourself, your career, and your employer a favor: re-approach your
customer
> service position from a more serviceable standpoint. Please write back to
me with the full
> name of your supervisor, along with pertinent contact information to place
my complaint
> into a forum where it will be better received.
>
> Oh, and ditch RoboHelp. It writes cursed HTML (-2).
>
> -Matt
Matt <ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote in message
news:rbjW3.35877$oa2.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
Bruce Grubb
>Hi Bruce/Group.
>
>Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
>responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and discourteous "official
>reply" to our concerns...
>
>'Matt,
>
>The product works as intended. No additional reply is required.
>
>I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
>
>Victor'
Sounds like V Penman was in aon usially bad mood. His responces to my
issues in the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread were not as curt but were
just as discourteous. He simply didn't want to accept that the HTML is
*crossplatform* and should not if done right need a seperate set of files
one for PC and one for Macs.
<http://x29.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516765480&search=thread&CONTEXT=942258808.414908510&HIT_CONTEXT=942249396.175570968&HIT_NUM=5&hitnum=14>
Quite frankly I was not impressed with the reasons presented (see
<http://x29.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516841162&search=thread&CONTEXT=942258808.414908510&HIT_CONTEXT=942249396.175570968&HIT_NUM=5&hitnum=15>)
and am becoming less impressed as time goes by and more details about the
way the HTML is set up comes out.
>I've discovered that the HTML was created using a tool called "RoboHelp" by
>Blue-Sky software (www.blue-sky.com). It's FAR worse than the rtf->HTML
>converter in Word/FrontPage97 (although I appreciate someone's comments
>about the MS O2K converters and know of a workaround: write to
>matman@_mysticworks.com after removing the underscore from the address
>shown)
Which raises the question of why the program was used if it is so much
worse than Word/FrontPage97.
>Bruce: are you related to Jeff Grubb?
Not that I know of.
Lost Dragon
>On the errors in the HTML of the Core Rules CD Expansion:
>In fact, HomeSite (true, it's a bit strict) found 254 HTML errors in a
>SINGLE PAGE!
I don't have the CD. So I don't know, but...
Does it come with its own viewer program? If it does, and if the
html source looks ok within that program, then... Your complaints
have less venom.
Yes, html is supposed to be cross-platform, but if a viewer is provided
then the author obviously intended for you to use the viewer, not some
other browser.
But if that isn't the case, well - shame on them.
/| .oo__. .-----.=- -= Lost Dragon =- -=.-----. U
{ \| ,-'' | _O_ |==- -= Forever Dead Forgotten Lie =- -==| _O_ | D
`,_/'(_)\_ | | |==- Remembered Souls, They Cannot Die -==| | | I
<...{_)_)_''`-----`===-- http://www.lostdragon.com/ --==='-----' C
Derek Broughton
> Matt wrote:
> >
> > Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for
WOTC and
> > responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and
discourteous "official
> > reply" to our concerns...
> >
> > 'Matt,
> >
> > The product works as intended. No additional reply is
required.
> >
> > I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
> >
> > Victor'
>
extremely rude for
> you to post private e-mail to a newsgroup without the sender's
permission. For
> all we know, you might have indeed been patronizing and
self-serving in what you
> sent him!!!
Yeah, it's rude, and he may indeed have been patronizing and
self-serving - but there is NO excuse for anybody ever sending an
'official' email like that. The man should not be allowed to
talk to customers.
Thanks, for the note about MS O2K & HTML Matt - I don't actually
use it, but we'd had some discussion about just how much worse
the HTML produced by Word2000 was than that produced by Word97 on
another group.
Derk
NinthWave
supports HTML that is part of the HTML standard they should really have
dropped the name tag of books in HTML format and just said books to be
viewed in Window's based browsers. If you use someone else's standard then
you should adhere to it.
The main problem I am seeing in this thread is that the nomenclature HTML
led people who had systems that could view HTML into a false belief that it
could work with their browser's. I agree that this is wrong if the books
are in HTML format they should be up to snuff and viewable in all HTML
complient browsers OS's etc as long as the file system can be accessed.
Basic false advertising. Your argument on the target system ignores that
HTML has a group of systems that it supports and is probably what happened
with the design of the books in HTML format, the company assumed that HTML
meant can be viewed in browser, ignoring the correct coding procedure and
the standards of HTML.
Ignorance of the way files are presented due to the opression of that
Microsoft Monoploly.
Jeff
Simon Rogers <si...@profantasy.com> wrote in message
news:80cccs$5bh$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
Matt
news:382ad264...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> Yes, html is supposed to be cross-platform, but if a viewer is provided
> then the author obviously intended for you to use the viewer, not some
> other browser.
> But if that isn't the case, well - shame on them.
No, friends, there's no viewer provided. In fact, the files were all usable
and legible on my browser. But this is not strictly about whether or not
the files "display without crashing" My complaint is about robustness,
usability, and style. Now... before anyone else jumps on this bandwagon
that I hear rumbling in the distance, consider the following: I've broken
down the problems with these files into 3 distinct categories. code errors,
hypertext design flaws, and stylistic defficiency.
CODE ERRORS
These a) slow down the entire user experience, b) add loads of extra file
size for storage (should you decide to store them on your HD or other media)
and c) demonstrate a general ineptitude and lackadaisical approach to
production. Here are a few of the other things you'll find in EVERY document
of the collection, sometimes by the hundreds:
. Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
. Nested redundant HTML tags (eg. <font size>text<same font size again>more
text</font>more text</font>
. Nested incongruous HTML tags (<font size="4"><font size="3">text
content</font></font>
. Clumsy tag paramter splitting <font face><font size>text
content</font></font>
. Totally empty tags <font></font>, including "Unclickable" Links <a
href="foo"></a>
. Inconsistent but extrememly similar color tags to signify the same levels
of heirarchy
. Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
. The inclusion of thousands of KB of "Times New Roman" tags... as if some
other incompatible face might appear instead? I tested the files with
Georgia, Arial, Helvetica, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, (i.e. each of the popular
"default" fonts" with no trouble.
. and more. Much much more.
. Un-renderable HTML: <font color="green"><a href="foo">link text</a></font>
[should be <a href="foo"><font color="green"><link text</font></a>]
. Use of the backslash character (see
http://x29.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516841162&CONTEXT=942249396.175570968&hitnu
m=5 )
. On top of all the inconsistencies and incongruities, the code is downright
inflexible (i.e. logical styles, style sheets, or at least REM tags.)
In a worst case scenario, such errors contributed to a filesize increase
that amounted to almost 200% [eg. DD00001.HTM: 21,131 ("Evermore Code") vs
11,214 ("Cleaned Code")]
The argument that creating messy stupid code is quicker and cheaper to
produce (and is somehow thereby warranted) doesn't hold water. Even a
simple WYSIWYG tool like HomeSite or DreamWeaver has "Code Cleaning"
capabilities that could have been run on the entire collection of files for
a smaller expenditure of resources than that which will be required for
TSR/WOTC/Evermore to deal with this matter during the life cycle of this
product.
HYPERTEXT DESIGN FLAWS
These are related to the way the document links are set up. In some cases,
it can be argued that adherence to incongruities in the structure of the
original text are at fault, but in any case, I'd expect WOTC to come in and
do a "clean up" on TSRs untidy legacy. It became obvious to me, however,
that no one really cared to create something perfect- sloppy and
inconsistent was good enough for us, the consumers. Here are a few of the
problems I've identified:
. Inconsistencies from one book to the next with regard to how the table of
contents is linked to actual documents (in "The Complete Book of Dwarves",
for example, there are no links in the TOC to the "Introduction" or to
"Chapter 1")
. It has been pointed out by Bruce Grubb that the assertion that the famous
TSR "q.q.v." (see reference in another volume) links that were removed from
the Mac code, were so stripped unnecesarily.
. The consolidation of chapter heading "introduction" pages with unrelated
content; in Arms & Equipment, padded Armor is lumped onto the header for
"Chapter 1")
. The dependency on the automated navigation system "RoboHelp" makes for
awkward navigation. Firstly, following a link in the content frame does not
update the Nav frame. Since pages are not labelled as to which volume or
section they belong to, this leaves one wondering, for example, how to
continue along the new path that was initiated by the leap. Clik "Monster
Summoning, for example, in the MM, and you can only get to the Monster
Summoning I table (i.e., there are no "context" or "next" links. This makes
the HTML far less useful than it MIGHt otherwise have been.
. The use of a "Table of Contents" link at the footer of each page is
confusing since it is not indicated WHICH of the 20 TOCs you'll be going to!
This is particularly bad after you've changed volumes from a contextual link
(eg, a "q.q.v.")
. As stated above, no page informs you which tome it is from, or what
chapter/section/ it is part of. And, while they're present, the page titles
are invisible because the whole thing lives in frames!
I could go on. Meanwhile, as an advocate of good hypertext, I'll simply use
this horrendous collection as a landmark example of what NOT to do.
STYLE DEFICIENCIES
Alas, here is where the volume in question doth most offend (me). This is
supposed to be a fantasy role playing game, and instead, we're looking at a
whitepaper. There are few attempts to make this product "feel" like
anything more than a transcription. This is a decision I''m sure we can't
blame the inept coders for, but it is one that I cannot leave unreproached.
The thing just feels wriong. But style is about more than atmosphere; it
conveys something of supertextual structure and can help a reader to
navigate, track, and process a text. The stylistic errors of the Core Rules
expansion are manifold, and range from the merely careless (default body
color makes the page a dull grey while text colors are garish and
"un-complementary") to the downright distracting (different type styles used
in different tomes to convey different levels of heirarchy.) The overall
effect is amateurish. More importantly, the use of space seems arbitrary.
While a paper based text uses colums and page breaks to organize itself, a
web text has the benefit of document breaks, indents, and more. These must
be treated as a language as important as the verbal content of a work, and
here, sadly, they have been ignored.
CONCLUSIONS:
This HTML looks more as if it were completed as per some obligatory
contractual agreement than to inspire. We gamers are a group of people who
I've found to be dedicated to the development of AD&D as an art form. You
can see it in the pride with which TSR and so many other companies assemble
their finer works. Why, then, must I look at the ugliest web pages I've
ever seen when the rules are converted to HTML? I wax emotional, but how
easy it would have been to care. This product truly went through no quality
control whatsoever, and this CD, (with its clumsy companion tools and
waste-of-budget cheesy effects and interface) is a total ripoff at prices
from $44.95 to $79.95
Derek Broughton
message news:80cq55$rl7$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> If it is listed as in HTML then the target system is any system
that
> supports HTML that is part of the HTML standard they should
really have
> dropped the name tag of books in HTML format and just said
books to be
> viewed in Window's based browsers. If you use someone else's
standard then
> you should adhere to it.
But the really stupid thing I see is using file Windows name
formats - since the Windows browsers (all of them afaik) accept
proper HTML format names - ie, unix-like - and internally convert
them to Windows format.
Derk
lonegunman
news:19991110125559...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
Quite frankly, I don't have the same moral indignation that others (and you)
do about posting a company representative's response to a complaint about a
cruddy piece of software that you developed. Matter of fact, I think he did
us all a service. Obviously, he knows a lot about HTML and you don't.
And that's surprising, since your company was selected to make this
product.
It seems at Evermore, the customer is always wrong. Sad indeed.
Trent
--
*********************************************************
LoneGunman Infoline v1.41: In order to support
one percent of a population in advanced technological
status, the other 99 percent must exist in relative
poverty.
*********************************************************
Genric
However, for the most part I enjoy reading the posts presented in this
Newsgroup. This topic has however prompted me to post a message.
It seems to me that this argument has ceased to be about a program of bad
code and has turned into a discussion on bad manners. While I will refrain
from taking sides, I do think that what was originally posted (Matt's first
post) seemed more an attack on the company and less a review on the program
itself. This is how took the post, and I do not appologize for interpreting
what you said if I did interpret it wrong. Communication is a two way
street.
I do feel however that the topic is relevent, just not in the context it is
in currently. It has ceased to be about a program. Rather than complaining
about a company, should you not offer suggestions. If you can so easily
transform 20 books into HTML easily, then why don't you do it and present it
to them as a patch version? They might even pay your for your efforts.
However, as a Web Site Designer myself (No, I don't work from home, we
actually have an office), I know the importance of quality code, however, I
also know that it is not as easy as you implied it to be, Matt. Infact, it
is quite tedious to do it by hand. I do agree that TSR should have put
forth that effort to make the coding smooth.
As per your communications with an official/unofficial employee of TSR/WotC,
I find your posting of his message to be a Flame, which I believe is
considered rude. Whatever your personal communications has nothing to do
with the program. That is something for another Newsgroup entirely (though
I forget the name of the newsgroup, it has flame in it somewhere).
I understand that the person you talked to may have been rude, however, by
coming onto a Newsgroup yelling about it, I take offense. I respectfully
ask that thought you may be angered with some event, please take a moment
and consider what you are typing and how it reads. Rather than flaming,
present your arguments reasonably as I have tried to do here. Remember, I
did not ask for a You were wrong/You were wrong argument, I enjoy this
Newsgroup because it can help me with DND Utilities/Purchases, and what not.
Please, by all means, if you have a problem with a program, tell us about
it. However, please refrain from bad mouthing people here.
I realize that this message was directed towards Matt mostly, and yes, it
was. However, I do not mean to single him out. I believe everyone
(inlcuding myself) should refrain from Flaming, or just bad mouthing anyone.
This is not the place for it. I do not wish to anger anyone with this post,
but please, if you have comments or questions, ask them.
Jason
Steve Miller
<< Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for WOTC and
responded to my formal complaint. >>
This rather neatly illustrates why intelligent folk with even the slightest
public profile don't waste their time on USENET.
Penman does not work for WotC, and I for one have never seen him make any
claims to that effect.
(BTW, have you bothered to send your concerns about the CD-ROM product to
WotC's costumer service department?)
Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff
Bigot, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you
do not entertain.
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Bruce Grubb
<NOSPAMnint...@mindspring.com`> wrote:
>Simon Rogers <si...@profantasy.com> wrote in message
>news:80cccs$5bh$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
>> As a matter of interest, does the HTML in Core Rules 2.0 display correctly
>> on the target system?
>
>If it is listed as in HTML then the target system is any system that
>supports HTML that is part of the HTML standard
EXACTLY my point. HTML is a crossplatform format and the format for URL
has been spelled out since Dec 1994.
>they should really have
>dropped the name tag of books in HTML format and just said books to be
>viewed in Window's based browsers. If you use someone else's standard then
>you should adhere to it.
There ion ONE standard in HTML for URLs so this is a non issue.
>The main problem I am seeing in this thread is that the nomenclature HTML
>led people who had systems that could view HTML into a false belief that it
>could work with their browser's. I agree that this is wrong if the books
>are in HTML format they should be up to snuff and viewable in all HTML
>complient browsers OS's etc as long as the file system can be accessed.
Exactly my point in the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread. HTML being a
crossplatform format should work on -all- systems. IF a HTLM link works
on Windows but fails on Mac or Unix then something is majorly wrong.
>Basic false advertising. Your argument on the target system ignores that
>HTML has a group of systems that it supports and is probably what happened
>with the design of the books in HTML format, the company assumed that HTML
>meant can be viewed in browser, ignoring the correct coding procedure and
>the standards of HTML.
Again the exact point I raised in the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread.
Bruce Grubb
<si...@profantasy.com> wrote:
>As a matter of interest, does the HTML in Core Rules 2.0 display correctly
>on the target system?
Since HTMNL is a *Crossplatform* format the question is meaningless.
Properly formated HTL will display and work on Mac, Windows, Unix, and
Amiga browsers. Not using the proper URL format break this which is my
main beef.
Matt
> transform 20 books into HTML easily, then why don't you do it and present
it
> to them as a patch version? They might even pay your for your efforts.
I'm almost half done already!
> However, as a Web Site Designer myself (No, I don't work from home, we
> actually have an office), I know the importance of quality code, however,
I
> also know that it is not as easy as you implied it to be, Matt.
Speak for yourself. I've been doing it for years.
> As per your communications with an official/unofficial employee of
TSR/WotC,
> I find your posting of his message to be a Flame, which I believe is
> considered rude.
I'm new to USENET and learned this the hard way. Lesson learned. Six posts
back I posted an apology.
Rather than flaming,
> present your arguments reasonably as I have tried to do here.
Please see my long post which breaks down the problems within three
categories: programming errors/system design flaws, hypertext design, and
stylistic deficiency. My argument this morning was one of outrage at the
snubbish contempt I first got from Penman. It was not directed at the man,
but at the customer service personna he represents, especially in light of
the fact that he responded to a letter I sent jointly to WOTC and evermore.
Matt
discovered where Penman worked and adjusted my position accordingly, b) the
issue of where he works/for whom is less relevant thatn what he does at work
and how he represents himself (after all, I got his address from inside the
WOTC product...) and c) the fact that he responded to a letter I wrote
jointly to the WOTC customer support team and Everquest set the stage for
this entire thread. Also, it would have been a simple open and shut case if
not for the abrupt and rude dismissal I got back from
ever...@evermore88.com.
The fact remains: the product is garbage, and it is after some inquiry into
the true capabilities of the Blue Sky Software product used to create it
that I say: it is almost certainly due to the poor quality control of the
software's development team that the code in CR2 Expansion is such a mess.
I'm working now to discover who it was who hired said team.
Steve Miller <nue...@aol.comDELETEIT> wrote
Jefferson Krogh
> And here is the initial letter I sent. I had no idea it was considered rude
> to quote email in a newsgroup.
It is exceptionally rude. Also, you didn't post your initial letter, but the
reply to Victor Penman's response. I want what you sent him that provoked his
response.
Bruce Grubb
<ja...@farrellstudio.com> wrote:
>I don't post here much, mainly because I find that my time is very limited.
>However, for the most part I enjoy reading the posts presented in this
>Newsgroup. This topic has however prompted me to post a message.
>
>It seems to me that this argument has ceased to be about a program of bad
>code and has turned into a discussion on bad manners.
Its accually both: a poorly written piece of HTML and bad manner in
dealing with with fact it is badly written HTML.
> While I will refrain
>from taking sides, I do think that what was originally posted (Matt's first
>post) seemed more an attack on the company and less a review on the program
>itself.
Some of the errors are so basic ('\' instead of '/' in URLs) that being
criticial of the outsourcing proceedure is a given.
>I do feel however that the topic is relevent, just not in the context it is
>in currently. It has ceased to be about a program. Rather than complaining
>about a company, should you not offer suggestions.
Like making sure who ever is going the job accually knows whet they are doing?
>If you can so easily
>transform 20 books into HTML easily, then why don't you do it and present it
>to them as a patch version?
Since the convertion was done by a program and cleaned up it is a total
different issue than typing up HTML files for the books. The issue
becomes why of all the possible programs that could generate HTML code was
'RoboHelp' selected? From the examples Matt give it seems to produce some
of the most horrid HTML I have ever seen and that is coming form a person
who has used Wordperfect, Pagemill, AppleWorks, Netscape, Nisus Writer,
and TexEdit to generate HTML files.
All produce a bit of noise (flakey HTML) but nothing on the level of using
backslash character for URLs
<http://x29.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516841162&CONTEXT=942249396.175570968&hitnu
m=5> or the host of SNAFUs Matt sited.
Gebhard Blucher
> Without knowing anything of the details of whatever message Matt sent
> to Victor, its pretty hard to put any judgements on Victor's reply.
>
> Victor Penman, who works for Evermore, not WOTC, by the way, has been
> on the D&D newsgroups since the original release of Core Rules 2.0 In
> that time I have seen him be very patient with people, and willing to
> help whenever he can when people have had questions or problems
> relating to the Core Rules products.
I agree. V. Penman has earn my respect, at least; he would have to do
something exceptional, at this point, to lose it.
GB
Jefferson Krogh
> Yeah, it's rude, and he may indeed have been patronizing and
> self-serving - but there is NO excuse for anybody ever sending an
> 'official' email like that. The man should not be allowed to
> talk to customers.
Oh, lighten up. If I were running a business, and someone acted like an
asshole towards me, I'd tell them to fuck off. Life is too short to put
up with self-important customers.
Matt seems like he's on a really stupid crusade here--makes me wonder if
he had applied for that job, and didn't get it. Then again, it's a
common gamer trait to get all bent out of shape whenever they find the
littlest thing wrong with a game. It always becomes some sort of
conspiracy.
Hey, Terry, wanna piece of this guy?
Jason Hatter
Mac version of the Complete Book of Elves? Victor was kind enough to
send me a copy of it when I mentioned it to him, tho I couldn't tell
you if it works since I'm using a PC, and had just been browsing the
disk for curiousity's sake (plus I would rather use the actual HTML
books as opposed to the "optimized for windows" versions. I noticed
that the mac books were loading faster....wonder why?)). I do
appreciate that, Victor.
--
Jason
http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
Sith Lords should learn to stay away from wells.
Martin Brabander
> And here is the initial letter I sent. I had no idea it was considered rude
> to quote email in a newsgroup.
>
Beeeppp! Can we correct one misapprehension, please?
Not getting into the arguements in any way, shape or form, but Victor Penman,
who has always responded to my queries and comments courteously, is not, and as
far as I am aware ever been, an employee of WOTC / TSR or even Hambro.
Martin Brabander
Lost Dragon
>and legible on my browser. But this is not strictly about whether or not
Welp..
Sounds like a classic piece of shovelware to me. That's a bit of a
disappointment at the price they're asking for it as you apparently
discovered.
Let's hope that WotC has better luck with Bioware, a quality developer.
Perhaps future book ports will go through better QA. One can only hope.
Lost Dragon
Well..
You know if you go *too* far, you end up looking like some sort of wacko
on a tirade, rather than just a disgruntled customer.
If you hate it that much, go give it a crap rating at one big resellers
that allows customer ratings..
TC
<dbrou...@usa.net> wrote:
>Jefferson Krogh <jeff...@skaldheim.com> wrote:
>> Matt wrote:
>> >
>> > Wow. This V Penman cat is a figure in my Saga. He works for
>WOTC and
>> > responded to my formal complaint. Read his curt and
>discourteous "official
>> > reply" to our concerns...
>> >
>> > 'Matt,
>> >
>> > The product works as intended. No additional reply is
>required.
>> >
>> > I find your lecture to be patronizing and self-serving.
>> >
>> > Victor'
>>
>> Ummm....let's see what you sent him, dude. It's considered
>extremely rude for
>> you to post private e-mail to a newsgroup without the sender's
>permission. For
>> all we know, you might have indeed been patronizing and
>self-serving in what you
>> sent him!!!
>
>Yeah, it's rude, and he may indeed have been patronizing and
>self-serving - but there is NO excuse for anybody ever sending an
>'official' email like that. The man should not be allowed to
>talk to customers.
Without knowing anything of the details of whatever message Matt sent
to Victor, its pretty hard to put any judgements on Victor's reply.
Victor Penman, who works for Evermore, not WOTC, by the way, has been
on the D&D newsgroups since the original release of Core Rules 2.0 In
that time I have seen him be very patient with people, and willing to
help whenever he can when people have had questions or problems
relating to the Core Rules products.
TC
TC
>And here is the initial letter I sent. I had no idea it was considered rude
>to quote email in a newsgroup.
This is clearly not the original e-mail you sent that led to Victor's
"curt" response, as you quote his response in this e-mail. If you want
to let people judge fairly, post your original e-mail to Victor that
led to his response.
TC
Steve Miller
<< If you'd read the whole thread you'd have discovered that >>
I read the whole thread as it appeared in the newsgroup at time. (It was [and
is] oddly jumbled, with even more replies to posts that show up later than the
average thread.
<< a) I eventually
discovered where Penman worked and adjusted my position accordingly, >>
Good for you!
<< b) the
issue of where he works/for whom is less relevant thatn what he does at work
and how he represents himself (after all, I got his address from inside the
WOTC product...) >>
I agree that Penman's mistake appears to have been to not ignore your message.
<< and c) the fact that he responded to a letter I wrote
jointly to the WOTC customer support team and Everquest set the stage for
this entire thread. >>
I must still be missing some posts, because I've yet to see one that says you
contacted the WotC customer support team with your complaints.
<< Also, it would have been a simple open and shut case if
not for the abrupt and rude dismissal I got back from
ever...@evermore88.com. >>
True.
Offhand, though, I'd say that you received a message back that reflected the
tone of your initial correspondence, just based on the posts in this newsgroup.
I could be wrong, of course. Was your first post in this thread the message you
sent to WotC and Evermore?
Although, I guess this is once again proof that one should never respond to
negative e-mails with anything but a form letter.
<< I'm working now to discover who it was who hired said team. >>
Whatever for? If you've contacted WotC's customer service, they've undoubtedly
forwarded your message to the right parties within WotC. That's part of their
function.
CMuel59749
<ma...@dontbugme.com> writes:
>And here is the initial letter I sent. I had no idea it was considered rude
>to quote email in a newsgroup.
>
>This went out in response to a short two sentence reply to my inquiry about
>the flawed HTML in the Core Rules CD.:
<snip>
In other words, you got the response you deserved. $#!^ happens.
To your credit, though, you did correct your previous error about V. Penman's
employer, and you have apparently posted the email you sent to Penman which got
his response.
Guardian (cmuel...@aol.comNoSpam or lone...@iname.comNoSpam)
Gothic Candles: http://www.gothic-candles.com
AD&D: http://members.aol.com/cmuel59749/index.html
Articles, tools, NPCs, Deities, Critters, Spells, Campaign Notes, and more!
Sea Wasp
>
> VPenman <vpe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19991110125559...@ng-fi1.aol.com..
> >
> > You posted an e-mail response from me to you in a newsgroup without my
> > permission or notifying me this would be happening. You neglected to post
> your
> > e-mail to me which would have put my response into context.
> >
> > You misrepresented my response as "official" (your quotes, I never used
> that
> > word) and my relationship with Wizards of the Coast.
> >
> > My communication with you is at an end.
> >
> > Victor
>
> Quite frankly, I don't have the same moral indignation that others (and you)
> do about posting a company representative's response to a complaint about a
> cruddy piece of software that you developed. Matter of fact, I think he did
> us all a service. Obviously, he knows a lot about HTML and you don't.
> And that's surprising, since your company was selected to make this
> product.
>
> It seems at Evermore, the customer is always wrong. Sad indeed.
I never purchased CR or CR2 because I use a Mac, but I did take a
look at the HTML.
EEEEeeeew.
ClarisWorks 4 would have done a better job at making HTML, and
ClarisWorks 4 bites at making HTML. Why in the name of God, if you
were going to use a program to make HTML, didn't you use one of the
two that DOES produce halfway decent code -- GoLive or Dreamweaver???
Hell, I've never even HEARD of this "RoboHelp" thing, and if this is
an example of its output, it's a good thing for the world that I
haven't. Jesus, FRONTPAGE would do a better job. Not much, but better.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Derek Broughton
Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> > Yeah, it's rude, and he may indeed have been patronizing and
> > self-serving - but there is NO excuse for anybody ever
sending an
> > 'official' email like that. The man should not be allowed to
> > talk to customers.
>
acted like an
> asshole towards me, I'd tell them to fuck off. Life is too
short to put
> up with self-important customers.
I _am_ running a business, and I have had my own
customer-relations snafus, but I can't tolerate my employees
speaking to customers like that. If he posts on Usenet (which he
has done), under his own name with no reference to his employer,
that's one thing. But when someone sends email to the company
and gets this response it's unacceptable. When you're running a
business ALL customers are self-important, and if you can't live
with that you don't have a business. In this case, his snub has
damaged the customer relations of both WOTC & Evermore. He may
be good at his job - but I'd still take away his internet email
access.
Derk
Brandon Wallace
What you people do not realize is that
RoboHelp converts *windows help files* to html. They already had windows
help files for most of the books (which means they had already done all of
the hypertext links for them). Do the programs you mention convert help
files to html? Robohelp also generated the java program that allows for easy
browsing of the books and text searching across the millions of html files.
Do the programs you listed automatically do this?
Now I agree that the HTML is pretty bad, but imagine this scenario at Evermore:
Evermore: WoTC says we must have this program done in X months.
They also want us to provide html versions of the books, along with windows help
versions, along with rtf versions.
The rtf versions are a piece of cake. We already have them.
The html & winhelp versions are more difficult. Many of these books have
never been hyperlinked. We can either do the same work twice, making
a winhelp version AND a html version, in which case we will not be done in time
and will have to cut features, or we can do the work once, and use Robohelp
to generate the other format.
Go to any business that has a deadline and present them with the alternatives
and most likely they will provide attempt to provide the maximum benefit in
the minimum time. If Evermore had been forced to generate "pretty html", then
either the expansion would have been delayed (which WotC did not want) or
the html books would have been removed from the feature list (which WE did not
want).
Bman
Phil Koenig
Could you please just post the original mail you sent so we can decide
if Victor's response was provoked or uncalled for?
Jefferson Krogh
> TC wrote:
>
> > Without knowing anything of the details of whatever message Matt sent
> > to Victor, its pretty hard to put any judgements on Victor's reply.
> >
> > Victor Penman, who works for Evermore, not WOTC, by the way, has been
> > on the D&D newsgroups since the original release of Core Rules 2.0 In
> > that time I have seen him be very patient with people, and willing to
> > help whenever he can when people have had questions or problems
> > relating to the Core Rules products.
>
> I agree. V. Penman has earn my respect, at least; he would have to do
> something exceptional, at this point, to lose it.
I will second that notion. That, combined with Matt's refusal to post the
letter to which Mr. Penman was replying, plus the fact that Matt has no
reputation here, all lead me to believe that Matt is far more to blame for
this situation than Mr. Penman.
Having spent too long working in a retail service environment, I can
usually tell when a customer has gotten too big for his britches, and
should be told to piss off. Barring further evidence to the contrary, I'm
getting that feeling about Matt, in spades.
Jefferson Krogh
> If you'd read the whole thread you'd have discovered that a) I eventually
> discovered where Penman worked and adjusted my position accordingly, b) the
> issue of where he works/for whom is less relevant thatn what he does at work
> and how he represents himself (after all, I got his address from inside the
> WOTC product...) and c) the fact that he responded to a letter I wrote
> jointly to the WOTC customer support team and Everquest set the stage for
> this entire thread. Also, it would have been a simple open and shut case if
> not for the abrupt and rude dismissal I got back from
> ever...@evermore88.com.
You still haven't posted the original letter you sent to Mr. Penman. Until you
do so, you're looking like a big jerk in my book.
> The fact remains: the product is garbage, and it is after some inquiry into
> the true capabilities of the Blue Sky Software product used to create it
> that I say: it is almost certainly due to the poor quality control of the
> software's development team that the code in CR2 Expansion is such a mess.
>
> I'm working now to discover who it was who hired said team.
Why the fuck should you care?? Don't you have something better to do? What's
wrong, did you offer to do the job, and they turned you down? Based on your
lack of professional ethics, I wouldn't hire you either.
Either post the letter you sent to Mr. Penman or drop the issue and shut the
fuck up.
Jefferson Krogh
> Please see my long post which breaks down the problems within three
> categories: programming errors/system design flaws, hypertext design, and
> stylistic deficiency. My argument this morning was one of outrage at the
> snubbish contempt I first got from Penman.
Why don't you post the letter you sent him so we can tell if you DESERVED it?
Judging by your posts here so far on the subject, I'll bet you did.
> It was not directed at the man,
> but at the customer service personna he represents, especially in light of
> the fact that he responded to a letter I sent jointly to WOTC and evermore.
Bullshit. Why'd you include the man's name when you rudely posted his private
e-mail to you, then? If you were trying to indict a persona, you would've
removed his name.
Post the letter you sent him, Matt. Until then, you will just be getting more
"snubbish contempt."
Jefferson Krogh
He won't do it. He knows he'll just look like more of an asshole if he
does. If he does, and I'm wrong about my suspicions, I'll publicly
apologize to Matt.
But I don't think I'll have to.
The customer is not always right. Or, as James Wallis puts it so nicely,
"Life is too short to do business with fuckwits."
Bryan J. Maloney
<ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote:
> I can't quit:
>
> On the errors in the HTML of the Core Rules CD Expansion:
>
> In fact, HomeSite (true, it's a bit strict) found 254 HTML errors in a
> SINGLE PAGE!
>
> Here's one example of their ridiculous footer (the atrocity varies greatly
> too, so you can't globally apply fixes!)
>
> <P>
> <A HREF="DD04825.htm"></A></FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman" SIZE="3"><A
> HREF="DD04825.htm">Table of Contents</A></FONT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="1">
> <P>
> </FONT></BODY>
> </HTML>
>
> Who wrote this thing? Even worse- who at TSR signed off on it???
A bunch of clueless morons, of course. My fine-arts and anthropology
degree holding wife writes cleaner HTML than that.
David R. Klassen
> What you people do not realize is that
> RoboHelp converts *windows help files* to html. They already had windows
> help files for most of the books (which means they had already done all of
> the hypertext links for them). Do the programs you mention convert help
> files to html? Robohelp also generated the java program that allows for easy
> browsing of the books and text searching across the millions of html files.
> Do the programs you listed automatically do this?
This stuff I didn't realize - and agree that using a converter was the
right and best choice.
> Now I agree that the HTML is pretty bad, but imagine this scenario at Evermore:
>
> Evermore: WoTC says we must have this program done in X months.
> They also want us to provide html versions of the books, along with windows help
> versions, along with rtf versions.
> The rtf versions are a piece of cake. We already have them.
> The html & winhelp versions are more difficult. Many of these books have
> never been hyperlinked. We can either do the same work twice, making
> a winhelp version AND a html version, in which case we will not be done in time
> and will have to cut features, or we can do the work once, and use Robohelp
> to generate the other format.
Ahhh...but the missing step is: clean up the HTML. And this is what all the
commotion is about. And if the HTML had been cleaned up, it would have been
cross platform saving not only the space on the CD because the cleaned up
code would have made the files smaller by upwards of 50%, but there would not
have needed to be a Mac set of files.
> Go to any business that has a deadline and present them with the alternatives
> and most likely they will provide attempt to provide the maximum benefit in
> the minimum time. If Evermore had been forced to generate "pretty html", then
> either the expansion would have been delayed (which WotC did not want) or
> the html books would have been removed from the feature list (which WE did not
> want).
I can't imagine the effort to clean up the code would have been more than the
effort to make Mac compatible versions (with stripped features).
--
David R. Klassen
Department of Chemistry & Physics
Rowan University
201 Mullica Hill Road
Glassboro, NJ 08028
Bryan J. Maloney
<ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote:
> . Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
> . Nested redundant HTML tags (eg. <font size>text<same font size again>more
> text</font>more text</font>
> . Nested incongruous HTML tags (<font size="4"><font size="3">text
> content</font></font>
> . Clumsy tag paramter splitting <font face><font size>text
> content</font></font>
> . Totally empty tags <font></font>, including "Unclickable" Links <a
> href="foo"></a>
> . Inconsistent but extrememly similar color tags to signify the same levels
> of heirarchy
> . Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
Looks to me like said MORONS merely used some kind of MicroCrap utility to
mindlessly "translate" whatever they had into a travesty of "HTML".
> . The inclusion of thousands of KB of "Times New Roman" tags... as if some
> other incompatible face might appear instead? I tested the files with
> Georgia, Arial, Helvetica, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, (i.e. each of the popular
> "default" fonts" with no trouble.
Yup--soundes like MicroSlime stupidity to me!
> In a worst case scenario, such errors contributed to a filesize increase
> that amounted to almost 200% [eg. DD00001.HTM: 21,131 ("Evermore Code") vs
> 11,214 ("Cleaned Code")]
Morons, absolute morons. If the folks at WoTC have brain one to share
among themselves, they'll never hire these pikers again.
> produce (and is somehow thereby warranted) doesn't hold water. Even a
> simple WYSIWYG tool like HomeSite or DreamWeaver has "Code Cleaning"
Hells bells, lad! AOLPress creates cleaner HTML than what you've been
subjected to!
> easy it would have been to care. This product truly went through no quality
> control whatsoever
BINGO!
David R. Klassen
>
> CODE ERRORS
> These a) slow down the entire user experience, b) add loads of extra file
> size for storage (should you decide to store them on your HD or other media)
> and c) demonstrate a general ineptitude and lackadaisical approach to
> production. Here are a few of the other things you'll find in EVERY document
> of the collection, sometimes by the hundreds:
>
> . Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
> . Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
It may be optional, but isn't it recommended? I know I was happy to
learn that newer versions of WordPerfect would start using it.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Oh, lighten up. If I were running a business, and someone acted like an
> asshole towards me, I'd tell them to fuck off. Life is too short to put
How many businesses HAVE you ACTUALLY run? How successful were they?
Bryan J. Maloney
> Victor Penman, who works for Evermore, not WOTC, by the way, has been
> on the D&D newsgroups since the original release of Core Rules 2.0 In
> that time I have seen him be very patient with people, and willing to
> help whenever he can when people have had questions or problems
> relating to the Core Rules products.
He has made outright false claims regarding the standardization of HTML.
Bryan J. Maloney
(Bruce Grubb) wrote:
> Since HTMNL is a *Crossplatform* format the question is meaningless.
> Properly formated HTL will display and work on Mac, Windows, Unix, and
> Amiga browsers. Not using the proper URL format break this which is my
> main beef.
And, of course, it DOESN'T display on all above-mentioned platforms. For
some reason, the ignorant weenies were utterly unaware of the fact that
HTML has very SPECIFIC requirements for using the "/" character in certain
places.
Bryan J. Maloney
<bm...@criterion.com> wrote:
> What you people do not realize is that
> RoboHelp converts *windows help files* to html. They already had windows
Incompetently. They seem to have been happy enough with incompetently.
Zero quality control is still zero quality control--it deserves zero
tolerance from the consumer.
Jefferson Krogh
Oh, I'll freely admit I'm the wrong type of guy to run a business, because I
won't take the type of crap you have to take to be successful. Those who can
run a business, successful or not, without turning their noses brown will always
get a nod of respect from me.
If Matt did indeed send WotC and Evermore a self-serving and pendantic screed
about the bad HTML, then he deserved to get the response he did. I'm not saying
at all that he's wrong about the quality of the code. I'm calling him out on
the rather questionable way he's been calling attention to it.
W Smith
product, but most of us don't know why it is such. Matt seems to be able to
articulate the problem, even though most of it went WAY over my head. I
can't comment on the correspondance between Matt and Victor. None of us seem
to know the whole story, (i.e. the letter Matt sent to Victor.) I will say
Victor has helped us out here at times, (even though we beat him up before
for the "custom class cr2e" thread months ago").
This is what I do know. I will NOT pay $40+ for a product that does not
properly work the way it should. AND I will NOT pay another $40+ for an
"upgrade" that does not completely fix the old bug. Why did WOTC not just
get the whole package right the first time with CR1? I know all software
will have some bugs, but if someone bought CR1, CR2, and CR2E how much money
has that person spent? For almost the same product minus a few more
rulebooks. After falling for the outrageous expasion of the rulebooks in the
1st ed (I had no idea 2nd ed would be four times as bad) I am very cautious
as to what I buy. If I spent $120 dollars on all the products that didn't do
what they said I would be pissed too.
It is not Victor or Evermore that we should be pissed off at. It is TSR/WOTC
for not looking out for the interest of us gamers. They are they ones giving
Evermore the contract and they have the ultimate say on what gets their lisc
on it.
Matt Picone
is the first letter to Penman. I'm putting int in this new thread because
there are so many middle-endpoints in the other at which it was requested I
couldn't decide which to favor.
The only single word I'd change in a rewrite is "%100". I'd change this
word to "significantly, removing the most glaring HTML flaws in the base
code of the pages (as opposed to the TOC/INDEX system and GUI) and reworking
the style to the point where it helped the reader actually use the text".
Since this letter was written, I've revamped the whole collection, using
simple regular expression searching and creativity. I discovered hundreds
if not thousands of horrendous errors that mar both the performance and the
inner beauty of this set of documents. For those of you who might question
my HTML credentials, or insist on maintaining this is a "difficult" project
which should have required "weeks", I'll reveal that I professionally
convert printed educational materials into HTML using the custom software
and refined processes. Had Mysticworks produced this product it would be a
different animal, time and budget or not (we often work extended hours for
free to ensure our work is perfect.) What's more is we would have taken
true pride in serving the gaming communities we're all a part of to produce
a product that would truly exhilarlate instead of disappoint. An HTML
wolf-pack, we're young (and quick to evolve), we're fast (far faster than
one haughty guildsman imagines), we're good (good enough to meet W3C
standards), and we're hungry (I'm going after WoTC on this one). Perhaps
most importantly, though our precision may have become a reflex, but our
hearts are still in AD&D.
I will not be sharing any the revised HTML we produced. To do so would be
a violation of the TSR copyright.
-Matt
PS: Penman can verify that this is EXACTLY the leter I sent first-- that
which he so snubbishly refuted in a 21 word blow-off. It was addresssed to
BOTH evermore and WoTC via email addresses I found inside the Core Rules CD
and at www.wizards.com I understand he may have acted patiently in the past
but to me he was unprofessional and
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
To whom it may concern:
I have just been perusing the HTML in the "Core Rules Expansion 2.0" game
product created by your company, and I'm appalled by the poor quality of the
code I've found in the WEBHELP and MACBOOKS directories. Specifically, I
discovered redundant and unnecessary tags, poor formatting, and worse,
outright errors that any simple HTML checker might have caught and
corrected. Also, poor code "design" in general results in problems when your
files viewed in windows on large fonts setting (uncommon but not unheard of)
and on most macs (did you not realize that "Times New Roman" was rare in the
Mac world? Did you really mean to have grey backgrounds? Why all the extra
font tags and broken color code on links ("green"?). Even on the tightest
deadline or the lowest budget a $100 version of FrontPage could have
converted your existing rtf files into cleaner HTML (try it!). Did your
Beta testers not furrow out these messes? If not, I'd suggest you look into
a more sophisticated review and testing process and I'd be glad to assist
you work through the requirements.
Is this the quality I am to expect from Evermore and Wizards of the Coast
products in the future? If so, I'll save my dollars for merchandise of the
quality one would expect for such a price as I paid for this software.
In all of 1 hour I improved the quality of this HTML 100%. Can anyone at
your company offer an explanation as to the root cause of this disastrous
publication? Surely you understand that the Role-Playing Gamer is typically
web-savvy and will be disappointed as a rule by such shoddy workmanship.
Please help me understand what happened, what steps you'll take to solve
this problem for future releases, and what, if anything the enterprising
professional like myself can do to help.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Matt Picone
Matt Picone
for the letter.
It should read: "...to me he was unprofessional and rude."
Jefferson Krogh
Thank you for posting the letter. Frankly, while it's not as bad as I might
have imagined, it IS self-serving. It breaks down like so:
1) Your HTML code sucks. (I can't argue with that.)
2) I could easily do it better. (I'll take your word for it.)
3) What the hell is your problem?
It's that last part that I'm sure pissed off Mr. Penman.
While you may be a highly accomplished HTML coder, and while you are correct
about the quality of the coding, you gotta realize that you won't accomplish
anything with a letter like that. You had all the necessary elements to make it
a useful letter. You pointed out a problem, and offered some solutions. But
the attitude of the letter undoubtedly made the recipients just stop listening
to you.
So let's all take a lesson from this--when discussing professional matters, one
should use professional decorum. Identifying a problem with a product is good.
Suggesting a way to improve it in the future is good. Badgering, hectoring,
using the situation to pat yourself on the back--those are all bad.
Best wishes, Matt.
Jefferson Krogh
Just remember, man--what comes around, goes around. If you had been
professional and polite in your letter, you would have been justified feeling
hurt. But you were unprofessional and rude, so you should only expect to
receive the same in kind.
Just chalk it up to life experience, man...
Matt Picone
such a strong tone as "What the hell is your problem?"
Jefferson Krogh <jeff...@skaldheim.com> wrote in message
news:382B1C98...@skaldheim.com...
Jefferson Krogh
> Exactly what in the language in my original letter are you transforming into
> such a strong tone as "What the hell is your problem?"
Fair question...here we go:
----------------------------------------
(did you not realize that "Times New Roman" was rare in the
Mac world? Did you really mean to have grey backgrounds? Why all the extra
font tags and broken color code on links ("green"?). Even on the tightest
deadline or the lowest budget a $100 version of FrontPage could have
converted your existing rtf files into cleaner HTML (try it!). Did your
Beta testers not furrow out these messes?
Is this the quality I am to expect from Evermore and Wizards of the Coast
products in the future?
***Can anyone at
your company offer an explanation as to the root cause of this disastrous
publication?***
-------------------------------------
That's where I got that impression. You may not have intended it to come across
as a strong tone, but especially in that last question, it came across as strong
to me.
Of course, I don't know how Mr. Penman interpreted things...that's just my
(rather meaningless, all things considered) take on things.
Matt Picone
hired to run a crummy conversion software on the existing help files as
opposed to producing clean HTML (if that indeed were the case, given
time/budget). That tact would have redirected my anger to the appropriate
parties at WOTC.
-M@
Jefferson Krogh <jeff...@skaldheim.com> wrote in message
news:382B2C61...@skaldheim.com...
David R. Klassen
a Win platform. Given that this Robohelp is designed to convert Winhelp
files to Windows readable HTML, and that it works on Win platforms, they
have done as advertied.
Caveat: I am *firmly* in the camp that says the HTML code is sloppy
and *should* be usable on all platforms and that they *should* have
taken the extra steps to clean up the code.
John B
off, too. In my opinion, neither of you were particulrly clever in the way
you wrote to each other.
Its time to call it a day, and chalk it down to experience.
Matt Picone wrote in message ...
Bryan J. Maloney
> Matt,
>
> Thank you for posting the letter. Frankly, while it's not as bad as I might
> have imagined, it IS self-serving. It breaks down like so:
>
> 1) Your HTML code sucks. (I can't argue with that.)
> 2) I could easily do it better. (I'll take your word for it.)
> 3) What the hell is your problem?
>
> It's that last part that I'm sure pissed off Mr. Penman.
All letters of complaint take that structure--go check with a professional
rhetor. ALL letters of complaint are self-serving, why else bother to
write them?
> While you may be a highly accomplished HTML coder, and while you are correct
> about the quality of the coding, you gotta realize that you won't accomplish
> anything with a letter like that. You had all the necessary elements to
make it
> a useful letter. You pointed out a problem, and offered some solutions. But
> the attitude of the letter undoubtedly made the recipients just stop listening
> to you.
There comes a time when screaming incompetence needs to be brought to its
own attention. Sometimes, that has been the *ONLY* way that I've gotten
service through some "technical representatives".
Derek Broughton
>
> So let's all take a lesson from this--when discussing
professional matters, one
> should use professional decorum. Identifying a problem with a
product is good.
> Suggesting a way to improve it in the future is good.
Badgering, hectoring,
> using the situation to pat yourself on the back--those are all
bad.
Hey, I'll agree with that - so why say:
>Oh, lighten up. If I were running a business, and someone acted
like an
>asshole towards me, I'd tell them to fuck off. Life is too
short to put
>up with self-important customers.
Mr. Penman may have been pushed (I really don't see it that way),
but there's still no excuse for not being polite to customers.
"use professional decorum" - good advice.
Derk
Jefferson Krogh
Hee! Okay, I admit a slight contradiction, because I can't think of an
adequate excuse except "Hey, he did it first!!"
That's why I'm not in business for myself. ;-)
Bruce Grubb
<kla...@rowan.edu> wrote:
>Matt wrote:
>>
>> CODE ERRORS
>> These a) slow down the entire user experience, b) add loads of extra file
>> size for storage (should you decide to store them on your HD or other media)
>> and c) demonstrate a general ineptitude and lackadaisical approach to
>> production. Here are a few of the other things you'll find in EVERY document
>> of the collection, sometimes by the hundreds:
>>
>> . Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
>Sloppy yes, but not critical enough to complain.
>
>> . Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
>It may be optional, but isn't it recommended?
Accually accroding to ICab (which I use to cheak my HTML) </p> is no
longer optional (a <p> must be ended with a </p>) under HTML 4.0's specs
Jefferson Krogh
> In article <382B1C98...@skaldheim.com>, jeff...@skaldheim.com wrote:
>
> > Matt,
> >
> > Thank you for posting the letter. Frankly, while it's not as bad as I might
> > have imagined, it IS self-serving. It breaks down like so:
> >
> > 1) Your HTML code sucks. (I can't argue with that.)
> > 2) I could easily do it better. (I'll take your word for it.)
> > 3) What the hell is your problem?
> >
> > It's that last part that I'm sure pissed off Mr. Penman.
>
> All letters of complaint take that structure--go check with a professional
> rhetor. ALL letters of complaint are self-serving, why else bother to
> write them?
I'd call what you're describing a "rant," not a "complaint."
Matt asked for explanations much the same way a boss would--and he ain't the boss,
he's a customer. As a customer, he has every reason to ask for a refund, or for
better products in the future--but he has no right to demand explanations of
Evermore's business or technical decisions. ESPECIALLY with the attitude (which may
not have been what Matt intended) that came across in the letter. Said attitude
being: "I could do this better than you, with one hand tied behind my back, and
I'll be happy to show you how incompetent you are if you invite me to redo your work
for you." (Note: this attitude may or may not reflection the truth of the
situation, but it is guaranteed to raise the hackles of any proud company.)
> There comes a time when screaming incompetence needs to be brought to its
> own attention. Sometimes, that has been the *ONLY* way that I've gotten
> service through some "technical representatives".
Frankly, I'm surprised you get anywhere at all. Being the technical sort, I know
what happens to users to resort to the sort of tactics you're endorsing here.
Bruce Grubb
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
>In article <R1mW3.35949$oa2.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net>, "Matt"
><ma...@dontbugme.com> wrote:
>
>> . Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
>> . Nested redundant HTML tags (eg. <font size>text<same font size again>more
>> text</font>more text</font>
>> . Nested incongruous HTML tags (<font size="4"><font size="3">text
>> content</font></font>
>> . Clumsy tag paramter splitting <font face><font size>text
>> content</font></font>
>> . Totally empty tags <font></font>, including "Unclickable" Links <a
>> href="foo"></a>
>> . Inconsistent but extrememly similar color tags to signify the same levels
>> of heirarchy
>> . Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
>
>Looks to me like said MORONS merely used some kind of MicroCrap utility to
>mindlessly "translate" whatever they had into a travesty of "HTML".
According to VPenman a program called Robohelp was used to generate the
HTML.
>> . The inclusion of thousands of KB of "Times New Roman" tags... as if some
>> other incompatible face might appear instead? I tested the files with
>> Georgia, Arial, Helvetica, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, (i.e. each of the popular
>> "default" fonts" with no trouble.
>
>Yup--soundes like MicroSlime stupidity to me!
>
>> In a worst case scenario, such errors contributed to a filesize increase
>> that amounted to almost 200% [eg. DD00001.HTM: 21,131 ("Evermore Code") vs
>> 11,214 ("Cleaned Code")]
>
>Morons, absolute morons. If the folks at WoTC have brain one to share
>among themselves, they'll never hire these pikers again.
>
>> produce (and is somehow thereby warranted) doesn't hold water. Even a
>> simple WYSIWYG tool like HomeSite or DreamWeaver has "Code Cleaning"
>
>Hells bells, lad! AOLPress creates cleaner HTML than what you've been
>subjected to!
>
>> easy it would have been to care. This product truly went through no quality
>> control whatsoever
>
>BINGO!
I agree. I use ICab to check the quality of the HTML I write; it can
cheak via 2.0, 3.2, 4.0 strick, transitional, and framset. The -least-
number of reported errors (1161) in MM0000.html was for HTML 3.2/4.0
transitional/framset. HTML 4.0 strick produces 3380 (which is the same
number of errors HTML 2.0 comes up with)
Unfortunitly Icab only list the first 25 errors but of this number the
most common are:
<B> must not contain block level tags like <P>.
and
<FONT> must not contain block level tags like <P>.
(there are four of these in a row)
It looks like a very minimal effort (if any) in cleaning up the HTML was made.
Bruce Grubb
<kla...@rowan.edu> wrote:
>"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
>>
>> In article <bgrubb-1011...@lc0659.zianet.com>, bgr...@zianet.com
>> (Bruce Grubb) wrote:
>>
>> > Since HTML is a *Crossplatform* format the question is meaningless.
>> > Properly formated HTL will display and work on Mac, Windows, Unix, and
>> > Amiga browsers. Not using the proper URL format break this which is my
>> > main beef.
>>
>> And, of course, it DOESN'T display on all above-mentioned platforms. For
>> some reason, the ignorant weenies were utterly unaware of the fact that
>> HTML has very SPECIFIC requirements for using the "/" character in certain
>> places.
>Note, however, that it was never advertised to run on anything *but*
>a Win platform.
I quote from the back of the box: "All nine key AD&D rulebooks included
in HTML-over 2,000 pages now hypertext-linked and accessible by Windows
95, Windows, Macintosh systems."
> Given that this Robohelp is designed to convert Winhelp
> files to Windows readable HTML, and that it works on Win platforms,
Which as I have pointed out before if the HTML files have been done
correctly in the first place there wouldn't have to *two* versions of the
HTML files (one for Windows and one for Macs) In short by not doing the
file properly they effectivly doubled the amount of work then need to do.
The program was designed for Windows which HTML files since they are
*crossplatform* should have ben optimized for windows. Trying to take the
out that the intereface program was designed for for windows does NOT
excuse nonstandard HTML in any way shape or form.
Dragon Mag Cd was designed for Windows but the PDF files work on a Mac as
expected even thought he interface program is unsuable on a Mac (without a
Windows emulater of some kind)
John Simpson
<jeff...@skaldheim.com> wrote:
>Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>> Yeah, it's rude, and he may indeed have been patronizing and
>> self-serving - but there is NO excuse for anybody ever sending an
>> 'official' email like that. The man should not be allowed to
>> talk to customers.
>
>Oh, lighten up. If I were running a business, and someone acted like an
>a------ towards me, I'd tell them to f--- off. Life is too short to put
>up with self-important customers.
Unfortunately, very few businesses have the luxury of casually
discarding customers. In my own work, I find that almost any irate
customer can at least be pacified, and perhaps even satisfied, simply
by showing that one cares.
The alleged e-mails from Mr. Penman (who is generally much more
patient and helpful than r.g.f.d. deserves) are a little more curt
than I would have expected, but I have to admit that the diction
sounds authentic.
What should one do when collared by a customer who seems only to
want someone to listen to irrelevant or insulting rants? Disengage,
if possible, but the general rule is to help the customer feel that
something was accomplished, or that the customer "won" something (if
the customer's tone was combative). The posted "e-mails" break that
rule, completely, and seem designed to accomplish the reverse. *Not*
good customer relations.
The customer in this case apparently wanted a show of respect for
some alleged technical expertise, and to feel that he *mattered*,
somehow, to the company. Granting this subliminal wish would have
cost next to nothing, and could have been done in the same number of
words, whether or not the company actually intended to *do* anything
about the customer's concerns.
Anyone can have an "off" moment, however, and so another general
rule is that one should never e-mail when angry. Businesses often
rely on word-of-mouth, and representatives would do well to remember
that customers, whether irate or satisfied, *will* talk about the
perceived value of the service they receive. If you're going to
e-mail a customer, you should phrase it so that you'd be *proud* to
have it posted where potential new customers can see.
Posting private e-mails may be rude, but this alleged exchange was
an *official* inquiry and response, whether or not it occurred through
a company e-mail address--because one of the parties was *known* to be
an official representative. Even though the customer was confused as
to which company was represented (check subject line).
Considering some of the traffic which used to come from TSR, I think
Mr. Penman is allowed one mistake. Assuming the scenario is as
presented, I believe a lesson has already been learned. I'd hope,
though, that he hasn't been scared off the newsgroup for good.
Peace,
John Simpson
Real username's in the URL
http://home.earthlink.net/~silverjohn
"I do live by the church; for I do live at my house, and my house doth
stand by the church." --Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Matt Picone
tag, here's how the </p> tag is put to use in CR2 ex.
<P></P><Font etc>Content content content</font>
<P></P>etc. etc.
EE-Gads!
Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:bgrubb-1111...@lc0050.zianet.com...
> In article <382B05CB...@rowan.edu>, "David R. Klassen"
> <kla...@rowan.edu> wrote:
>
> >Matt wrote:
> >>
> >> CODE ERRORS
> >> These a) slow down the entire user experience, b) add loads of extra
file
> >> size for storage (should you decide to store them on your HD or other
media)
> >> and c) demonstrate a general ineptitude and lackadaisical approach to
> >> production. Here are a few of the other things you'll find in EVERY
document
> >> of the collection, sometimes by the hundreds:
> >>
> >> . Sloppy beacketing (<body >)
> >Sloppy yes, but not critical enough to complain.
> >
> >> . Excessive use of the optional </p> tag
Jefferson Krogh
> Well, in any case, and I stand corrected with regard to the new spec of the
> tag, here's how the </p> tag is put to use in CR2 ex.
>
> <P></P><Font etc>Content content content</font>
> <P></P>etc. etc.
>
> EE-Gads!
Yikes. Anyway, you don't have to prove to us that the code is poorly done--I
think we all agree on THAT. ;-)
Jefferson Krogh
> Jefferson Krogh wrote:
> >
> > Post the letter you sent him, Matt. Until then, you will just be getting more
> > "snubbish contempt."
>
> He did. Check the post with message-ID
> CnjW3.35879%24oa2.131037%40iad-read.news.verio.net (to read it from a
> browser, paste this into the URL window:
> news://YOURNEWSSERVERSNAMEHERE/CnjW3.35879%24oa2.131037%40iad-read.news.verio.net
Yep, I saw it. I've noticed some lag time on r.g.f.d today...and again I thank Matt
for posting it, because that helps clarify what prompted Mr. Penman's response.
Bruce Grubb
>Matt Picone wrote:
>
>> Exactly what in the language in my original letter are you transforming into
>> such a strong tone as "What the hell is your problem?"
>
>Fair question...here we go:
>
>----------------------------------------
>
>(did you not realize that "Times New Roman" was rare in the
>Mac world? Did you really mean to have grey backgrounds? Why all the extra
>font tags and broken color code on links ("green"?). Even on the tightest
>deadline or the lowest budget a $100 version of FrontPage could have
>converted your existing rtf files into cleaner HTML (try it!). Did your
>Beta testers not furrow out these messes?
>
>Is this the quality I am to expect from Evermore and Wizards of the Coast
>products in the future?
>
>***Can anyone at
>your company offer an explanation as to the root cause of this disastrous
>publication?***
>
>-------------------------------------
>
>That's where I got that impression. You may not have intended it to come
> across as a strong tone, but especially in that last question, it came
across > as strong to me.
My knowledge of HTML is very minimal but I don't see anything unusially
strong here. Especially since one of the errors (the "\" instead "/" in
URLs) requires a total ignornce of one of the oldest standards in HTML
(RFC 1738).
Then we get to the shear number of errors. According to ICab MM00000.HTM
has 1162 errors, SM00000.HTM has 373 errors, and even the credit pages
have errors. MM00001.HTM is only 6K and has 32 errors; that is over 5
errors per K! For this amount of errors to get though something had to be
way flakey in the beta testing stage.
Bruce Grubb
<bal...@crosswinds.net> wrote:
>"David R. Klassen" wrote:
>>
>> Note, however, that it was never advertised to run on anything *but*
>> a Win platform. Given that this Robohelp is designed to convert Winhelp
>> files to Windows readable HTML, and that it works on Win platforms, they
>> have done as advertied.
>
>If they advertise it as containing HTML files, it should comply with the
>specifications of HTML. Using the "\" character in URLs instead of "/"
>does not.
Exactly my point during the _CR2 Expansion Bug/Feature_ thread. In fact
RFC 1738 (Dec 1994) <http://www.w3.org/Addressing/rfc1738.txt>
specifically warns -against- using the "\" character in a URL in an HTML
file:
"2.2. URL Character Encoding Issues
[...]
Unsafe:
Characters can be unsafe for a number of reasons.
[...]
Other characters are unsafe because
gateways and other transport agents are known to sometimes modify
such characters. These characters are "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", "~",
"[", "]", and "`".
All unsafe characters must always be encoded within a URL. For
example, the character "#" must be encoded within URLs even in
systems that do not normally deal with fragment or anchor
identifiers, so that if the URL is copied into another system that
does use them, it will not be necessary to change the URL encoding."
RFC 1738 is a part of HTML 2.0 (Nov 1995)
<http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/rfc1866.txt>, 3.2 (Jan 1997)
<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html32#dtd> and 4.0
<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html>.
Side note Section 3.10 FILES of the spec shows that Section 2.2 above
applies to local files as well.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Matt asked for explanations much the same way a boss would--and he ain't
the boss,
> he's a customer. As a customer, he has every reason to ask for a refund, or
You don't own a business, do you?
> better products in the future--but he has no right to demand explanations of
> Evermore's business or technical decisions. ESPECIALLY with the attitude
He has every right to do so--he spent the money to do so. How long have
YOU owned a successful business?
> Frankly, I'm surprised you get anywhere at all. Being the technical
sort, I know
> what happens to users to resort to the sort of tactics you're endorsing here.
How long have YOU owned a successful business?
Bryan J. Maloney
(Rod Towey) wrote:
> Yup. I do third party support for 4 ISP's. When customer's start
yelling and
> cursing we give them the 3 strike your out rule (Warn them to moderate thier
> tone/language 3 times and then hang up). We're here to help you, NOT take
> abuse from you.
He wasn't yelling or cursing. I challenge you to point out SPECIFICALLY
where I advocated yelling and cursing. There comes a time when
incompetence must be brought out into the public light.
Chris Shepherd
> where I advocated yelling and cursing. There comes a time when
> incompetence must be brought out into the public light.
First of all, you endorsed his actions. Remember that over email, doing
things with your text can be taken as yelling (I took it as so).
The following: "***Can anyone at your company offer an explanation as to
the
root cause of this disastrous publication?***" could be taken as yelling
because
of the special emphasis being placed on the words. When I first read it,
it came
across as yelling, or at least (if it were being spoken) as being in a
loud voice.
Having not seen the Core Rules CD, I cannot examine what you are calling
"incompetence". From the posts I have read, the Incompetence stems from
a
CD using HTML as it's help files, which was incorrectly formatted, and
loaded with errors.
Keeping in mind that I haven't seen it, I have one question: Was the
CD worth getting that angry and upset over?
Yes, I understand you paid for it, but would a simpler "I would really
like
a fixed version of this, sent to me for free, or a full refund." not
have sufficed?
Onto the Original posting, I would like to ask you something Mr. Picone.
If you were to receive an email which (from what I could see), bashed
your
work, degraded your company and overall injured your professional pride,
would you not also get a tad irritated (to say the least)?
I'm sorry to write this (and am expecting a strong response), but I
believe
we are looking at a double standard. You complained (IMO) in a rather
STRONG fashion, then when you received an equally strong reaction, you
post to the newsgroup for all to see and hear how upset you were about
it.
Please, take no offense at this, I am looking at the facts in as much of
an
unconnected with emotion fashion as is possible. You are quite correct
in stating
that Mr. Penman should have been more courteous to you, as he is a
representative
of a company. However, I don't think that the kind of response you gave
him
was warranted.
I think what's been missed is the original goal in the first place was
that the core rules be legible.
The only thing your letter apparently accomplished was that you ticked
off someone
put work into the Core Rules Exp. CD, and you got to vent. The Problem
still
remains does it not?
My background:
I'm 18 now.
I've been programming in Basic since I was 9, and have been coding in
HTML since
early 1994 (HTML Version 2 I believe) -- When the WWW first became
really
popular in my area.
I have yet to dabble in the realm of Java applets, but have coded a few
of my
own Java Scripts.
I have a working knowledge of Windows NT, and advanced Knowledge of '95.
I'd rate myself as an absolute newbie when it comes to UNIX boxes and
Macs.
--
Chris Shepherd
Known in the SCA as William Silverlake
"But sir, I've been with your family since 1167!" "So has syphillis, get
out!"
Staffan Johansson
>
> Post the letter you sent him, Matt. Until then, you will just be getting more
> "snubbish contempt."
He did. Check the post with message-ID
CnjW3.35879%24oa2.131037%40iad-read.news.verio.net (to read it from a
browser, paste this into the URL window:
news://YOURNEWSSERVERSNAMEHERE/CnjW3.35879%24oa2.131037%40iad-read.news.verio.net
, replacing YOURNEWSSERVERSNAMEHERE with something like
news.skaldheim.com)
--
Staffan Johansson (bal...@crosswinds.net)
"There was always something that needed transferring from A to B or, of
course, to the bottom of the C."
-- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather.
Staffan Johansson
>
> Note, however, that it was never advertised to run on anything *but*
> a Win platform. Given that this Robohelp is designed to convert Winhelp
> files to Windows readable HTML, and that it works on Win platforms, they
> have done as advertied.
If they advertise it as containing HTML files, it should comply with the
specifications of HTML. Using the "\" character in URLs instead of "/"
does not.
Rod Towey
>
>Frankly, I'm surprised you get anywhere at all. Being the technical sort, I
> know
>what happens to users to resort to the sort of tactics you're endorsing here.
>
Yup. I do third party support for 4 ISP's. When customer's start yelling and
cursing we give them the 3 strike your out rule (Warn them to moderate thier
tone/language 3 times and then hang up). We're here to help you, NOT take
abuse from you.
Later
RJT
lonegunman
news:H9GW3.36387$oa2.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
> Fair take, but what he should have done was explain that he had only been
> hired to run a crummy conversion software on the existing help files as
> opposed to producing clean HTML (if that indeed were the case, given
> time/budget). That tact would have redirected my anger to the appropriate
> parties at WOTC.
>
> -M@
Well, I think the letter looked fine. Above standard fare, I'd say,
coming from a pissed off customer who just purchased a
lazily produced product.
And, it was TEN TIMES more courteous and professional
than Penman's response.
Nuff said,
Trent
--
*********************************************************
LoneGunman Infoline v1.41: In order to support
one percent of a population in advanced technological
status, the other 99 percent must exist in relative
poverty.
*********************************************************
lonegunman
are fucking pitiful!!!
I mean, here we have a guy that is able to articulate
cogently WHY a product is defective that people have
suspected is shitty all along, but weren't sure why.
He, rightfully, busts the company's balls a
bit and tells them "shame, shame for doing
such naughty thing." The guy
from the company basically says "blow it
out your ass, it's a good enough product for the
likes of you, so there"
Given this, I have seen NUMEROUS responses
from people saying the ANGRY CONSUMER
should have been a little more warm and
fuzzy in his letter to the company guy about
being ripped off.
Either a lot of people are playing Devil's
Advocate here or we have a high number
of company BUTTSUCKS in the newsgroup
for some reason.
I'm with Matt on this one. Hell, I think V. Penman
and WoTC ought to give everyone a personal
apology for selling something so flawed ... but
I guess that too radical.
W Smith
the boss,
> he's a customer. As a customer, he has every reason to ask for a refund,
> better products in the future--but he has no right to demand explanations
of
> Evermore's business or technical decisions. ESPECIALLY with the attitude
> not have been what Matt intended) that came across in the letter. Said
attitude
> being: "I could do this better than you, with one hand tied behind my
back, and
> I'll be happy to show you how incompetent you are if you invite me to redo
your work
> for you." (Note: this attitude may or may not reflection the truth of
the
> situation, but it is guaranteed to raise the hackles of any proud
company.)
No he is not the boss, but he is droping $40-$60 a shot for a piece of
software that is not a good as it should be.
W Smith
> I'm with Matt on this one. Hell, I think V. Penman
> and WoTC ought to give everyone a personal
> apology for selling something so flawed ... but
> I guess that too radical.
>
BruceG6069
>
>> <snip>
>> And, fyi, among the 20 books on the CD,
>> only the Monstrous Manual includes
>> any illustrations.
>
>Apart from the Monstous Manual, I have to
>say that the illustrations are of a
>very poor quality. OK the 1st Ed illustrations were bad, but they were
> done by the authours not professional
> artists, but the 2nd Ed stuff is bad and
>comissioned from artists! I am quite happy >for them to be removed, if it
>means a faster and leaner resource.
Of course if the HTML had been cleaned up it would be even faster and leaner.
In the time it took to create "Mac" HTML (ie HTML with properly formated URLs
with some links removed) the mess RoboHelp produced probally could have been
cleaned up resulting in one set of HTML files that would be better than the two
sets that resulted.
With 'help' like this who needs a hinderance? :-)
BruceG6069
>As a matter of interest, does the HTML in
> Core Rules 2.0 display correctly
>on the target system?
My I ask a particually stupid question?
Since properly written HTML is supposed to work equally well on _any_ OS that
supports a browser how can there be a target system or OS for a set HTML files?
BruceG6069
>> He wasn't yelling or cursing. I challenge
>> you to point out SPECIFICALLY where I
>> advocated yelling and cursing. There comes
>> a time when incompetence must be brought
>> out into the public light.
>
>First of all, you endorsed his actions.
>Remember that over email, doing
>things with your text can be taken as yelling
>(I took it as so).
Only one thing is considering yelling by Internet standards: ALL CAPS (except
when it was originally that way). A '*' or '-' usially denotes *bold* or
-italic- and a '_' usially denotes _underline_.
>The following: "***Can anyone at your company
> offer an explanation as to the
>root cause of this disastrous >publication?***" could be taken as yelling
The problems is those '***' were -not- in the orignal letter reproduced here.
Rather they were -inserted- by Jefforson Krogh in a reply.
Here is the relevent section of the e-mail Matt as it was originaly posted:
[...]
"In all of 1 hour I improved the quality of
this HTML 100%. Can anyone at your company
offer an explanation as to the root cause
of this disastrous publication? Surely
you understand that the Role-Playing
Gamer is typically web-savvy and will
be disappointed as a rule by such
shoddy workmanship."
[...]
Since there is no difference of the sentence from the rest of the paragraph no
yelling occured. Nor is anything in this reply by internet standard except for
the example.
David R. Klassen
>
> I quote from the back of the box: "All nine key AD&D rulebooks included
> in HTML-over 2,000 pages now hypertext-linked and accessible by Windows
> 95, Windows, Macintosh systems."
> Which as I have pointed out before if the HTML files have been done
> correctly in the first place there wouldn't have to *two* versions of the
> HTML files (one for Windows and one for Macs) In short by not doing the
> file properly they effectivly doubled the amount of work then need to do.
On this point, your are preaching to the choir.
> The program was designed for Windows which HTML files since they are
> *crossplatform* should have ben optimized for windows. Trying to take the
> out that the intereface program was designed for for windows does NOT
> excuse nonstandard HTML in any way shape or form.
My point, was that the problem is a more far-reaching one. That M$ is out
to control everything and tweaks/changes any spec it can get its grubby
hands on and that's why there are things such as Windows versions of HTML,
java, RTF, etc. etc.
So, the way I see it, the good folks at Evermoore have this nifty program
that claims to turn Windows Help files into (Windows) HTML files. However,
only the most cross-platform saavy are going to realize that M$ has its own
flavor of HTML so that when the pages don't work with other systems, their
knee-jerk reaction is that there is some problem with the other system and
thus the fix we got was two versions.
The problem is not just at Evermoore, but a problem in an environment of
programmers who are M$ certified and are preprogrammed to follow those
world-domination-bent specs.
> Dragon Mag Cd was designed for Windows but the PDF files work on a Mac as
> expected even thought he interface program is unsuable on a Mac (without a
> Windows emulater of some kind)
Fortunately PDF is an Adobe (and thus more Apple oriented) standard that M$
hasn't yet had time to "improve". Just wait...
--
David R. Klassen
Department of Chemistry & Physics
Rowan University
201 Mullica Hill Road
Glassboro, NJ 08028
Derek Broughton
> would you not also get a tad irritated (to say the least)?
>
> I'm sorry to write this (and am expecting a strong response),
but I
> believe
> we are looking at a double standard. You complained (IMO) in a
rather
Welcome to the joys of customer service. Of course there's a
double standard. Customers may rant, service reps (and imo that
includes _anybody_ who has an internet mail address or can answer
the phone at my business) must keep their cool. I also don't
agree with the previous post. You can pass a customer to your
boss, but if he's yelling at you your company is doing
_something_ wrong. No such thing as 'three strikes".
In this case, even if Matt was yelling, the correct response is
something along the lines of "you're right [that always helps,
and in this case he is], and it's obviously too late to fix it
right now but in the next release we'll try to address those
issues". If the customer is still po'd you say "give me your
address and we'll be sure to send you a complimentary copy of the
next CD".
Needless to say, just because I _know_ how to do it right,
doesn't mean I always do. I've had unhappy customers too...
Derk (Coryn to you...)
CMuel59749
<william_s...@ealdormere.sca.org> writes:
>> He wasn't yelling or cursing. I challenge you to point out SPECIFICALLY
>> where I advocated yelling and cursing. There comes a time when
>> incompetence must be brought out into the public light.
>
>First of all, you endorsed his actions. Remember that over email, doing
>things with your text can be taken as yelling (I took it as so).
<snip the rest of an excellent post>
>Chris Shepherd
Chris, that was one of the best posts I've seen this year. Certainly the best
on this particular topic.
Very good piece of work.
Guardian (cmuel...@aol.comNoSpam or lone...@iname.comNoSpam)
Gothic Candles: http://www.gothic-candles.com
AD&D: http://members.aol.com/cmuel59749/index.html
Articles, tools, NPCs, Deities, Critters, Spells, Campaign Notes, and more!
Bryan J. Maloney
> Having not seen the Core Rules CD, I cannot examine what you are calling
> "incompetence". From the posts I have read, the Incompetence stems from
"Incompetence", see also "not having the faintest idea regarding the
internationally recognized specificaton for HTML--to the point of
publically DENYING that any such specification existed".
> Keeping in mind that I haven't seen it, I have one question: Was the
> CD worth getting that angry and upset over?
Angry and upset?
HEE HEE! Laddie, if you think that I'm angry and upset, don't get near me
when I go beyond slightly peeved to actually somewhat grumpy! Let me put
it this way--when I suddenly become VERY polite, all "yes sir" and "no
sir", all nice and quiet--THEN I am angry and upset.
> Yes, I understand you paid for it, but would a simpler "I would really
> like
Actually, I never bought a copy. After I saw the UTTER INCOMPETENCE with
which the project was handled and the miserable whining that Penman
performed in public rather than manfully owning up to things, I was
definitely decided AGAINST purchasing anything produced by that particular
company.
> unconnected with emotion fashion as is possible. You are quite correct
> in stating
> that Mr. Penman should have been more courteous to you, as he is a
> representative
> of a company. However, I don't think that the kind of response you gave
> him
> was warranted.
Were I, as a company representative, to say something like that to a
customer at any place I had worked, I would be putting my job on the line,
believe me. Indeed, I am circumspect these days when speaking as a
representative of my current employer, even though it is an academic
research facility and not a commercial concerne. Speaking as me, I'm as
bombastic as I feel. Speaking as a rep or even specifically as an
identified employee of my place of work--VERY different rules apply.
Penman has no excuse. He simply could have ignored the letter.
> My background:
> I'm 18 now.
> I've been programming in Basic since I was 9, and have been coding in
> HTML since
> early 1994 (HTML Version 2 I believe) -- When the WWW first became
> really
> popular in my area.
And how much work have you done in the business world representing
yourself to the public as a member of a company?
Bryan J. Maloney
<dbrou...@usa.net> wrote:
> Welcome to the joys of customer service. Of course there's a
> double standard. Customers may rant, service reps (and imo that
> includes _anybody_ who has an internet mail address or can answer
> the phone at my business) must keep their cool. I also don't
YUP! That's what I've had to do when I end up playing "rep". It's part
of the job.
Jefferson Krogh
> Bruce Grubb wrote:
> >
> > I quote from the back of the box: "All nine key AD&D rulebooks included
> > in HTML-over 2,000 pages now hypertext-linked and accessible by Windows
> > 95, Windows, Macintosh systems."
> I sit corrected. Thank you.
Me, I prefer to lounge corrected, but I'm lazy. ;-)
> My point, was that the problem is a more far-reaching one. That M$ is out
> to control everything and tweaks/changes any spec it can get its grubby
> hands on and that's why there are things such as Windows versions of HTML,
> java, RTF, etc. etc.
Let's hope Judge Jackson (the lost Jackson brother) comes down hard on Darth
Gates in his findings of law and remedies. As a certified MS systems engineer,
I want to see Microsoft become a BETTER company. Right now, their "embrace and
extend" philosophy makes them look like imitators, not innovators.
And their business practices have been wrong, wrong, wrong.
> Fortunately PDF is an Adobe (and thus more Apple oriented) standard that M$
> hasn't yet had time to "improve". Just wait...
Naahhh, John Warnock and the folks at Adobe have a healthy fear of the Evil
Empire; they got PDFs accepted as a standard too fast for Microsoft to realize
they'd been outfoxed.