Spider Swarm: CR 1? WTF?
Jim Seymour
I've recently started a new campaign and am having a little trouble
adjusting to the low levels.
Last week, I ran an adventure that had Spider Swarms. Immune to weapon
damage, automatic hits for 1d6 plus poison, not to mention Distraction
(which I actually forgot about during the game).
Still... All that and it's only CR 1?
Am I still out of touch? Or does that seem low?
--
Jim Seymour
Mark Blunden
Swarms are especially deadly against low-level parties, where options
capable of hurting them are in short supply. That tends to make them
under-CR'd when used individually, but their CR is more reasonable when they
are being used as part of a larger encounter against higher-level
characters.
Just one of those annoying quirks of the CR system.
--
Mark Blunden.
richard d
We had this in our game yesterday.
Answer: run away (they're slow) then come back with Alchemist's fire.
One chuck of one flask does one swarm in (they take an extra 50%
damage of 1d6 per round for 2 rounds).
Richard
Jim Seymour
> Answer: run away (they're slow) then come back with Alchemist's fire.
> One chuck of one flask does one swarm in (they take an extra 50%
> damage of 1d6 per round for 2 rounds).
Where's the extra 50% come from? I don't see that in the writeup.
Also, the touch AC of a Spider Swarm is 17, so my players had a hard
time scoring a direct hit with Alchemist's Fire. They kept doing 1
point of splash damage -- and quickly found themselves running out of
flasks to throw...
--
Jim Seymour
Justin Alexander
In order to get the "auto-hit" they have to provoke an attack of
opportunity by entering the target's square -- so, basically, whoever
they're attacking gets an extra free attack every single round (since
the characters can just take a 5' step to get out of the swarm and
force it to enter their square again).
The swarm only has 9 hp, so a low level party with open flames or
basic spellcasting is going to take it out very quickly. Its poison
has a relatively easy save and is only mildly more dangerous than a
1st level spell (ray of enfeeblement).
I don't see anything unreasonable about the CR 1 rating here, although
it's probably on the high end of that rating.
--
Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
Mark Blunden
> richard d wrote:
>> Answer: run away (they're slow) then come back with Alchemist's fire.
>> One chuck of one flask does one swarm in (they take an extra 50%
>> damage of 1d6 per round for 2 rounds).
>
> Where's the extra 50% come from? I don't see that in the writeup.
Extra 50% damage from area effects. Alchemist's fire doesn't quite qualify,
but it's arguable - after all, the splash damage affects an area.
> Also, the touch AC of a Spider Swarm is 17, so my players had a hard
> time scoring a direct hit with Alchemist's Fire.
I think a lot of players tend to confuse the rules on splash weapons, and
think you only have to attack into the target's square (i.e. against AC 5)
to score a direct hit. I've done it myself a few times.
I also think swarms' touch AC is just plain wrong. It seems to take into
account the size modifier for the individuals that make up the swarm, which
is unreasonable.
> They kept doing 1
> point of splash damage -- and quickly found themselves running out of
> flasks to throw...
I tend to allow 1 point of damage for each 5-foot square of a swarm that's
caught in the splash, since they're not, strictly speaking, a single
creature.
--
Mark Blunden.
Mark Blunden
> Jim Seymour wrote:
>> Reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm
>>
>> I've recently started a new campaign and am having a little trouble
>> adjusting to the low levels.
>>
>> Last week, I ran an adventure that had Spider Swarms. Immune to
>> weapon damage, automatic hits for 1d6 plus poison, not to mention
>> Distraction (which I actually forgot about during the game).
>>
>> Still... All that and it's only CR 1?
>>
>> Am I still out of touch? Or does that seem low?
>
> In order to get the "auto-hit" they have to provoke an attack of
> opportunity by entering the target's square -- so, basically, whoever
> they're attacking gets an extra free attack every single round (since
> the characters can just take a 5' step to get out of the swarm and
> force it to enter their square again).
Which again comes down to having an effective weapon that can damage the
swarm in the first place. And if they fail their save against Distraction,
they lose both their normal attacks and any attacks of opportunity the swarm
might provoke.
> The swarm only has 9 hp, so a low level party with open flames or
> basic spellcasting is going to take it out very quickly.
Only a handful of 'basic' spells will do anything significant to a spider
swarm. Basically, you'd better hope the wizard has Burning Hands memorised.
And even once the party manage to get torches lit (one full round to
retrieve torch and tinderbox, one full round to light torch, assuming the
person doing so isn't swarmed and distracted), they're still only doing 1d3
damage per hit, and taking a -4 improvised-weapon penalty to attack, against
a creature with an AC of 17. For a 1st-to-2nd-level party, that's probably
hit-on-a-natural-20 territory for everyone but the fighter.
--
Mark Blunden.
Some Guy
Is there a first-level spell that can, on average, wipe out a CR 1
spider swarm?
Some Guy
> Jim Seymour wrote:
>> Reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm
>>
>> I've recently started a new campaign and am having a little trouble
>> adjusting to the low levels.
>>
>> Last week, I ran an adventure that had Spider Swarms. Immune to weapon
>> damage, automatic hits for 1d6 plus poison, not to mention Distraction
>> (which I actually forgot about during the game).
>>
>> Still... All that and it's only CR 1?
>>
>> Am I still out of touch? Or does that seem low?
>
> In order to get the "auto-hit" they have to provoke an attack of
> opportunity by entering the target's square -- so, basically, whoever
> they're attacking gets an extra free attack every single round (since
> the characters can just take a 5' step to get out of the swarm and
> force it to enter their square again).
Except that they are immune to weapon damage, making this particular
point irrelevant. A CR1 monster is supposed to be a challenge for a 1st
level party, but being immune to weapon damage takes away the fighter's
& rogue's (sneak attack) main ability to contribute.
> The swarm only has 9 hp, so a low level party with open flames or
> basic spellcasting is going to take it out very quickly. Its poison
> has a relatively easy save and is only mildly more dangerous than a
> 1st level spell (ray of enfeeblement).
There isn't a spell available to a first level party that will take it
out quickly, unless your party is four wizards who all have Burning
Hands ready or something similar.
--Burning Hands is 1d4 (3.75 average vs. swarms)
--Produce Flame is 1d6+1 (4.5 average vs. swarms)
Leaving out stuff in the expansion books, you're going to need your
druid to hit AC 17 twice with "Produce Flame" or someone else to hit 3
times with an acid flask or alchemical fire, assuming the swarm doesn't
stick around in a square of burning flames to be damaged more than once.
> I don't see anything unreasonable about the CR 1 rating here, although
> it's probably on the high end of that rating.
A first level party's tactic is pretty much reduced to "fling alchemical
items and retreat," though there's nothing wrong with that tactic.
Matt Frisch
<noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid> scribed into the ether:
Burning Hands has a good chance.
Marshall
"Some Guy" <noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid> wrote in message
news:9SMIh.29060$115....@newsfe10.phx...
>
> A first level party's tactic is pretty much reduced to "fling alchemical
> items and retreat," though there's nothing wrong with that tactic.
You looked at the cost of alchemical items lately? What 1st level party is
going to have more than 1-2 flasks of anything to throw around?
Werebat
At first level?
- Ron ^*^
Jim Seymour
> Jim Seymour wrote:
>> richard d wrote:
>>> Answer: run away (they're slow) then come back with Alchemist's fire.
>>> One chuck of one flask does one swarm in (they take an extra 50%
>>> damage of 1d6 per round for 2 rounds).
>> Where's the extra 50% come from? I don't see that in the writeup.
>
> Extra 50% damage from area effects. Alchemist's fire doesn't quite qualify,
> but it's arguable - after all, the splash damage affects an area.
Ah! Found it. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype
"A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or
effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation
spells."
Looks like Alchemist’s Fire does qualify, since it's a "splash weapon":
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsFire
--
Jim Seymour
Mark Blunden
Ah, that's good to know. I remembered the basic "+50% for area damage" rule,
but not the specific mention of splash weapons.
--
Mark Blunden.
Some Guy
On average, Burning Hands does 2.5 hp (3.75 vs. swarms). Since an
average spider swarm has 9 hp, you'll need three of those, and since the
range of Burning Hands is a 15' cone, you will need to fire & retreat,
then hope it doesn't double-move over you and eat your 4 hp up in one
blow, as it easily could.
Some Guy
That's a campaign-specific question. Does the party roll starting gold
or take the average? The answer can influence the answer. Acid is only
10 gp but still does more average damage than Burning Hands.
Alchemist's fire is only 20 but burns more than one round, though that's
probably not going to help unless the swarm can't move for some reason.
Mark Blunden
> Alchemist's fire is only 20 but burns more than one round, though
> that's probably not going to help unless the swarm can't move for
> some reason.
Since you have to target the creature rather than its square with a splash
weapon, I think it's fair that the burning residue adheres to the creature
itself, so that it doesn't matter whether it moves the following round.
That's a little harder to picture for a swarm, but I think it's still the
fairer way to play it.
--
Mark Blunden.
Some Guy
Yep. Note, though, that +50% of 1d6 is still, on average, less than
half a swarm's hit points, so make sure you've got several.
Some Guy
Here's another interesting question: does Color Spray work on swarms?
It doesn't target creatures like Magic Missile but affects opponents in
an area based on Hit Dice. Does the HD pool of a swarm count towards
that? If so, that's your answer for how to deal with it in one round.
Ed Chauvin IV
<noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid> hastily scrawled:
>Marshall wrote:
>>
>> You looked at the cost of alchemical items lately? What 1st level party is
>> going to have more than 1-2 flasks of anything to throw around?
>
>That's a campaign-specific question. Does the party roll starting gold
>or take the average?
Yes, a very interesting question indeed. Once, back when we rolled
for starting wealth, everyone rolled very poorly and there was a
serious lack of equipment. That group of PCs didn't get very far and
nobody had much fun. Now, I give max starting wealth but the players
all start with no cash. They have to spend everything on stuff they
can carry. Basically, they've got all the gear they need, but nothing
left over.
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
Some Guy
> Mere moments before death, Some Guy
> <noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid> hastily scrawled:
>> Marshall wrote:
>>> You looked at the cost of alchemical items lately? What 1st level party is
>>> going to have more than 1-2 flasks of anything to throw around?
>> That's a campaign-specific question. Does the party roll starting gold
>> or take the average?
>
> Yes, a very interesting question indeed. Once, back when we rolled
> for starting wealth, everyone rolled very poorly and there was a
> serious lack of equipment. That group of PCs didn't get very far and
> nobody had much fun. Now, I give max starting wealth but the players
> all start with no cash. They have to spend everything on stuff they
> can carry. Basically, they've got all the gear they need, but nothing
> left over.
Which is why they need to go adventuring. Simple and neat...
Justisaur
wrote:
And if you are just getting splash, 150% of 1 is still 1 in D&D (since
you round down)...
- Justisaur
Jim Seymour
> Jim Seymour wrote:
>> Looks like Alchemist’s Fire does qualify, since it's a "splash weapon":
>> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsFire
>
> Yep. Note, though, that +50% of 1d6 is still, on average, less than
> half a swarm's hit points, so make sure you've got several.
Except if you score a direct hit, you get two rounds of damage. Thus,
the average damage would be 2d6+50%. With the vagaries of round-down,
this translates to precisely 10 points (on average) - which is enough to
take out your average Spider Swarm (9 hp).
--
Jim Seymour
Mark Blunden
It works on swarms in general to the best of my knowledge, taking the swarm
hit dice as the guide to its effects.
However, it doesn't work on spider swarms, since it's a mind-affecting
effect, to which vermin are immune.
--
Mark Blunden.
Some Guy
Yes, but you won't be getting that unless you miss the swarm completely.
The rogue should probably be the one to toss the flask given that that
character probably has the highest DEX.
Some Guy
Yes, but you could take out, say, a rat swarm with one, couldn't you?
Matt Frisch
<noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid> scribed into the ether:
>Mark Blunden wrote:
But rat swarms are "big" enough to be vulnerable to weapon damage.
Marcel Beaudoin
news:vb5cv2519kvlrnep9...@4ax.com:
> But rat swarms are "big" enough to be vulnerable to weapon damage.
Our DM allowed us to use shield swats to do damage to take out a swarm.
Well, that and oil poured on floor then lit with a torch as they enter the
square...
--
Marcel
Justin Alexander
> Justin Alexander wrote:
> > In order to get the "auto-hit" they have to provoke an attack of
> > opportunity by entering the target's square -- so, basically, whoever
> > they're attacking gets an extra free attack every single round (since
> > the characters can just take a 5' step to get out of the swarm and
> > force it to enter their square again).
>
> Which again comes down to having an effective weapon that can damage the
> swarm in the first place. And if they fail their save against Distraction,
> they lose both their normal attacks and any attacks of opportunity the swarm
> might provoke.
In most dungeon situations, the 1st level characters are going to be
carrying torches (since they can't afford more expensive light sources
yet) and can take AoOs with those.
> > The swarm only has 9 hp, so a low level party with open flames or
> > basic spellcasting is going to take it out very quickly.
>
> Only a handful of 'basic' spells will do anything significant to a spider
> swarm.
Any offensive spell will do. They're only immune to weapon damage.
Looks like a couple 1st level spells or three cantrips should do the
trick. And since they're so slow, the party can simply outrun them and
attack from a distance.
Mark Blunden
Swarms are immune to any spell which targets a specific number of creatures,
including spells with one target. The example given is Disintegrate, so this
includes ranged touch spells.
As pointed out elsethread, that basically leaves Burning Hands.
--
Mark Blunden.
Klaus Mittag
> Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>> Yes, a very interesting question indeed. Once, back when we rolled
>> for starting wealth, everyone rolled very poorly and there was a
>> serious lack of equipment. That group of PCs didn't get very far and
>> nobody had much fun. Now, I give max starting wealth but the players
>> all start with no cash. They have to spend everything on stuff they
>> can carry. Basically, they've got all the gear they need, but nothing
>> left over.
>
> Which is why they need to go adventuring. Simple and neat...
"You are all sitting in a tavern when a mysterious stranger approaches
you about a mission. Which is mightily convenient because after buying
your equipment none of you have actual cash left to pay for the food and
drinks you just had..."
Sorry, the image just popped unbidden into my mind. :)
--
Klaus Mittag (klaus_...@t-online.de)
#include <disclaimer.h>
#include <fancysig.h>
spam > /dev/null
Darin McBride
> Some Guy wrote:
>> Jim Seymour wrote:
>>> Looks like Alchemist?s Fire does qualify, since it's a "splash weapon":
>>> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsFire
>>
>> Yep. Note, though, that +50% of 1d6 is still, on average, less than
>> half a swarm's hit points, so make sure you've got several.
>
> Except if you score a direct hit, you get two rounds of damage. Thus,
> the average damage would be 2d6+50%. With the vagaries of round-down,
> this translates to precisely 10 points (on average) - which is enough to
> take out your average Spider Swarm (9 hp).
The RAW may say you get two rounds of damage ... but I'm not sure it makes
sense. Part of the reason for two rounds of damage is that it sticks to
what it hits. But, in a swarm, the individual entities that got hit are
now dead, any further damage they take won't impact the swarm as a whole.
I could see adding another 25% damage (thus 1d6+75%) in that second round
if you manage to "hit" the center of the swarm /and/ the swarm moves such
that some of the spiders would walk into their still-burning-but-dead
comrades. Even that seems a bit much - one bonus point would probably be
my maximum.
If, however, 1d6+50% is /not/ enough to kill individual members of a swarm,
well, that changes things. But then we're not talking about a spider swarm
anymore.
Darin McBride
> --Burning Hands is 1d4 (3.75 average vs. swarms)
Actually, 3.5 average:
Roll +50% Damage
1 1.5 = 1
2 3 = 3
3 4.5 = 4
4 6 = 6
Total = 14
Average = 14 / 4 = 3.5
The rounding-down after adding the 50% does a bit to your potential damage.
But that's just me being pedantic. :-)
Jim Seymour
> The RAW may say you get two rounds of damage ... but I'm not sure it
Yeah. Mark made that observation elsewhere in this thread.
I would rule this to be one of those dreaded examples where the rules
don't match "reality", but changing the rules isn't worth the trouble.
> If, however, 1d6+50% is /not/ enough to kill individual members of a
> swarm, well, that changes things. But then we're not talking about a
> spider swarm anymore.
I had a character who witnessed an epic dream/vision of a dragon swarm
once. It was *hawesome*. :-)
--
Jim Seymour
Rast
Some Guy (noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid) wrote:
> On average, Burning Hands does 2.5 hp (3.75 vs. swarms).
3.5 damage vs swarms, surely?
d4 x150%, *rounded down*
-------------------------------
1 1
2 3
3 4
4 6
total 14
total/4 3.5
--
"Sometimes I stand by the door and look into the darkness. Then I
am reminded how dearly I cherish my boredom, and what a precious
commodity is so much misery." -- Jack Vance
Some Guy
The other thing to remember is the fact that the swarm is going to
auto-damage its foe by moving into its space. If that's the wizard,
he's very likely a goner.
Some Guy
Which makes Burning Hands even less marginally useful. Pedantry to the
rescue!
Some Guy
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:01:44 -0700,
> Some Guy (noemailfo...@anyplace.invalid) wrote:
>
>> On average, Burning Hands does 2.5 hp (3.75 vs. swarms).
>
> 3.5 damage vs swarms, surely?
>
>
> d4 x150%, *rounded down*
> -------------------------------
> 1 1
> 2 3
> 3 4
> 4 6
>
> total 14
> total/4 3.5
>
>
>
As I've said before, math isn't my strong point. Good catch!
tussock
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>> --Burning Hands is 1d4 (3.75 average vs. swarms)
>
> Actually, 3.5 average:
Rule of thumb: 1d4 => 1d6 => 2d4; 1d8 => 1d12 => 2d8.
--
tussock
Malachias Invictus
"Jim Seymour" <nnt...@thentao.com> wrote in message
news:LVBIh.618$8o1.121@trndny01...
> Reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm
>
> I've recently started a new campaign and am having a little trouble
> adjusting to the low levels.
>
> Last week, I ran an adventure that had Spider Swarms. Immune to weapon
> damage, automatic hits for 1d6 plus poison, not to mention Distraction
> (which I actually forgot about during the game).
>
> Still... All that and it's only CR 1?
>
> Am I still out of touch? Or does that seem low?
It is definitely low. Remember that a CR 1 encounter is only supposed to
use up 20% of the resources of a 1st level, 4 member party. I think CR 2 is
a better choice.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Jasin Zujovic
> > I've recently started a new campaign and am having a little trouble
> > adjusting to the low levels.
> >
> > Last week, I ran an adventure that had Spider Swarms. Immune to weapon
> > damage, automatic hits for 1d6 plus poison, not to mention Distraction
> > (which I actually forgot about during the game).
> >
> > Still... All that and it's only CR 1?
> >
> > Am I still out of touch? Or does that seem low?
>
> It is definitely low. Remember that a CR 1 encounter is only supposed to
> use up 20% of the resources of a 1st level, 4 member party. I think CR 2 is
> a better choice.
Really good coordination and plenty of oil might add up to just 20%. But
if you're out of oil, at 1st level you're fucked.
The only reason the second encounter in AoW (a swarm) didn't end with a
TPK when I ran it is because I decided the bugs stayed to eat the fallen
cleric rather than pursuing the others.
--
Jasin Zujovic
richard d
We've just done that - spookily enough. Lost one character but then
ran away and came back with some Alchemist's fire.
Our GM didn't double move the bugs, though, which helped, though I
think if I had seen them swarm out at 40' per round we'd have run away
straight away.
And our GM did the same as you (which I think is reasonable, actually
- these are only hungry insects after all).
Richard