D&D-related murder attempt?
Tmudd
I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
harmless?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
that Jeremy had some contact with role-players on the Internet.
If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
Ohio might have to say.
This whole thing has got lots of people in an uproar, as you could guess.
But I think there are a lot of things missing from what we're being told.
Tom Mudd
City Editor, The Morning Journal, Lorain, Ohio
E-mail: tm...@ibm.net
Phone: 1-800-765-6901, ext. 560
Ogre
[posted and emailed]
In article <19970419065...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tmudd <tm...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
>with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
>week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>
>As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
>mentioned and what he tried to do?
No. D&D does not make people kill their families (or even perfect
strangers, for that matter).
There is no connection between D&D and satanism.
But I'd like for more of the story to be known before people start
drawing these connections between hobbies and criminal acts.
>Or is this just a situation in which
>clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
>games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
>harmless?
>
>I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Clueless cops I can't say anything about, but newsfolk, in my opinion,
are only interested in selling papers/prime time advertisements, so
they'll play up any sensational angle they can find, relevant or not.
>This whole thing has got lots of people in an uproar, as you could guess.
>But I think there are a lot of things missing from what we're being told.
I agree with you, there.
--
"Most people learn from their past mistakes and in future
lives go on to grow into better people. Others, who don't,
become ogres." - E. A. Scarborough, _The Godmother_
Will Grzanich
In article <19970419065...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, tm...@aol.com
says...
>
>I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
>with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
>week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>
>As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
>clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
>games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
>harmless?
Uh...well, his interest in Satanism certainly couldn't have helped; but
D&D had nothing to do with it. D&D is just a set of guidelines for
role-playing; if this guy was doing strange things in his game that's his
own doing, not the game's. D&D's no more likely to cause anyone to
commit murder than watching "Willow."
-Will
--
"All you need is love." | Check out my groovy web page at
-John Lennon | http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~grzanich!
| New and improved!!
J. McGuire
[note to Tmudd: emailed version is more extensive; read that one first]
Tmudd wrote:
>
> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>
> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
> harmless?
I've been a RP gamer for almost 20 years. I've been watching this sort
of thing for almost that long.
First of all, I'd like to point you at some sources:
http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm
http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/sources.html
http://www.trhickman.com/Ethic1.html
Now, my thoughts....
Consider Jeremy Shelton's position: he's looking at doing some major
jail time. He wants to avoid this. So, is he going to say "I tried to
kill my parents because they grounded me for no reason" or "I tried to
kill my brother because he's a noxious creep who bugs me" or "The RPG
devil made me do it"? Which explanation might sway a jury that knows
nothing about gaming? Which one has any hope of getting him off in
court? Riiiiight.
In my experience, RP gamers are not only not *more* likely to commit
antisocial acts, they tend to be *less* likely to do so. Practically by
definition, being involved in a gaming group gives someone a social
connection, a link to people around him. This can be a critical thing,
especially for a teenager who's experiencing the isolation and
disorientation that comes as part of adolescence. They've got someone to
talk to, someone to hang out with, and that "hanging out" isn't down at
the corner convenience store.
Also, within the context of the game, they have a chance to be the
person that their ambiguous place in society -- a person with the drives
of an adult but the social and legal restrictions of a minor -- won't
let them be. It's a chance for the guy who got turned down by his prom
date to be the gallant knight who rescues the captive princess, the girl
who's all legs and nose to be the brave and beautiful warrior-queen of
Neverwhere. And, likewise, it's a chance to learn what being those
people is like...to have some experience with people _not_ treating you
like a freak or a loser all the time...so that, when the person grows
out of the teenage confusion, they can actually be more ready to see
themselves as something other than the freak that fellow adolescents
labelled them.
Now, there are gamers who go totally over the edge and do things such as
taking out after their family with a claw hammer. *BUT*, from what I've
seen of over 19 years of gaming, and almost 35 years of life, the people
who do so are _already_ troubled. They're a catastrophe waiting to
happen. In a few cases, it might well be something related to gaming
that triggered the final explosion -- but if it wasn't the D&D game this
week, it would have been the Little League game next week, or the report
card the week after, or not getting the family car the week after that.
And notice that I spoke of _triggered_ not _caused_. The explosion was
waiting to happen. ANYTHING could have set it off...in a few cases, that
"anything" happens to be something related to a RPG.
The big problem, as I see it, is the attitude of the press, police, and
other investigators. (yourself excluded, since you're taking the time to
post to Usenet and ASK some actual gamers what we think) They find out
that, for example, this kid played D&D, and say "Okay, now we know what
caused it: those evil games." They don't look any further...they never
try to find out what _really_ was behind all of it, because they've
found a "cause" that they think they understand, a "cause" that will
sell (or get their picture in) newspapers, a "cause" that fits with what
they've heard in the rumor-and-urban-legend mill...and a "cause" that is
not a cause at all.
A psychology professor I had in college pointed out something rather
interesting, in a discussion of illegal drug use and related matters:
The "proof" that is generally presented to show that marijuana use
causes hard drug use is that almost all hard drug users started with
marijuana. When he was a graduate student in the 60's, he and his fellow
psych grad students experimented with just about every drug known to
man. Most of them (except those that totally messed themselves up) went
on to become PhD's. By the same standard of "proof", then, it could be
"shown" that drug use causes one to get a doctorate in psychology. (he
had one other interesting point, one that I've remembered ever since,
that is worth passing along: "There is _nothing_ that any drug, whether
it comes from a needle or a beer can, can give you that is not *already*
inside your head. Nothing. Period." I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I
don't do drugs (unless you count chocolate-covered espresso beans!) --
and on those rare occasions that I've been tempted to do otherwise, I
remember those words.
Likewise, the "proof" that role-playing gaming causes violent,
antisocial, or just plain evil behavior is that "a bunch of people who
have done Bad Things also played RPGs." Sure. And they also drank Pepsi,
they also watched the evening news, they also had fights with their
parents and failed their history classes and got cut from the basketball
team and...well...all sorts of things. Life. But the average person
knows what drinking Pepsi, or watching the news, or fighting with their
parents, or failing a class, or getting cut from the team, feels like.
It's a familiar experience. They've done it, or knew someone who did.
There's nothing strange or mysterious about it. Since it's a known
quantity, they *know* that, for instance, that woman in Texas who tried
to have her daughter's cheerleading rival's mother killed was NOT
behaving in a normal manner, or one that could rationally be the result
of having a daughter trying out for the cheerleading squad. It's known,
it's familiar -- so it's not scary. People know there's no connection,
that it's just someone who's already seriously messed up expressing
their messed-up-ness by poisoning Pepsi cans, or shooting their history
teacher, or putting out a hit on a suburban housewife.
RP gaming, though, is an unknown quantity. As ubiquitous as it seems to
us on the inside, most people *haven't* played D&D, or any other RPG.
Most people know only what the media has to say about it -- which is, in
my experience, always sensationalized, generally inaccurate (or, in many
cases, dead wrong) and rarely good. Far too many people implicitly
believe what they read, and one newspaper story saying "Players take the
roles of creatures such as the Styx Devil..." (Centre Daily Times, State
College, PA, somewhere back in the 80's) can override any number of D&D
players saying "No, Mom, styx devils are evil monsters that we good guys
fight against." They have virtually know knowledge of gaming, and just
about everything they think they know is wrong...so it's strange. Scary.
Evil. Must be the cause of this Bad Thing.
Most people are afraid of unfamiliar, the out-of-the-ordinary. Look at
the common perception of the risk of driving a car and flying on a
commercial airliner. I often wonder: how many of those white-knuckled
passengers I usually wind up sitting next to wore their seatbelts on the
way to the airport? Or take asbestos: People have absolutely *freaked*
when they heard that asbestos -- usually in the form of floor tiles, or
pipe insulation down in the basement, or undisturbed acoustical material
up above a ceiling -- was found in their children's school.
Statistically, though, at least a quarter of those people who were
freaking about a nearly infinitesimal risk (in some cases, airborne
fiber counts _lower_ than in non-asbestos-containing buildings) SMOKED
AROUND THEIR CHILDREN AT HOME. Second-hand smoke is a *massively* higher
risk factor than undisturbed asbestos...but it's known. It's familiar.
It's something everyone has seen and experienced. It's not the evil
bogeyman lurking in the pipe-wrapping and the pillar insulation. So they
ignore the enormous risk they themselves are exposing their own children
to, and freak out about a risk that, in many cases, is almost impossible
to measure.
So people blame RP games because they _know_ that the other things that
the person was involved in couldn't have "caused" whatever he did. They
knew plenty of people who failed a class, who got grounded for the big
party weekend, who didn't make the team...or, for that matter, who were
abused in some way by a parent...and who didn't flip out. Since all
those things _didn't_ "cause" it, it has to be the thing that they're
not familiar with: RP gaming.
In many ways, this is like a witch-hunt in some societies. Nobody gets
sick, or dies, or has bad luck, "just because." If something bad
happens, some evil person must have caused it. So there's a need to find
that person, assign blame, exact retribution. Everything has to have a
cause...and if you can't see the cause, it must be sorcery. But, just as
the evil eye is not a valid explanation for cancer, neither is gaming a
valid explanation for murderous rampages. Not everything has an obvious
cause. And the first "cause" you encounter is rarely the right one.
Likewise, in cases like this one, everyone feels compelled to find the
"cause" -- and the one they fasten on, gaming, is no more relevant than
any other. "The witch-doctor shook his amulets at Grandma, and then
Grandma swelled up and died" is true in terms of sequence, but the
logical fallacy comes in "...because of the curse he cast on her."
Likewise, "Jeremy Shelton played RP Games, and then he took out after
his family with a claw hammer" does *not* prove "...because of the games
he played." There's a cause for Grandma's cancer. There's a cause for
Shelton's crime. But the fact that they were both associated with other
things (curses or games) does *not* imply causation.
As for the Satanism angle:
First of all, in almost 20 years of gaming, and about as long in SF
fandom and other groups, I've known exactly _one_ true Satanist. She
thought D&D was silly. (she was also an extremely messed-up person, but
that's another story) Freaking out one's parents is a teenage thing. So
is rebellion...against authority, against religon, against the norms of
society. Some people (me, for instance) just went and did what their
parents least wanted...I became a computer nerd. (so much for the pretty
pink dresses and cuddly dolls!) Others find the most outrageous thing
they can -- mind-curdling music, trappings of the occult, obsession with
the least-suitable person of the opposite sex in town -- whatever it
takes to stress mom and dad.
As far as I understand it, anyway, that's the case with most teen-age
"Satanism." It's just another sort of adolescent rebellion. I suppose if
you really believe in a real Devil who's stronger than God, and who's
wandering around among us looking for souls, it could be disturbing in a
religious sense...as it happens, I don't. In terms of it "causing" kids
to do antisocial, or just plain evil, things -- again, where is the real
cause? It's not in the expression, certainly.
Antisocial actions are an _expression_ of something...the trappings
around them, whether it's black candles and pentagrams or gang colors
and grafitti -- are just the icing on a dark and bitter cake. Blue
bandanas don't make kids shoot at other kids wearing red ones. But some
kids, for whatever reason, join the Crips and shoot at Bloods, and the
blue and red bandanas are just part of the package.
Likewise, teenage fascination with what they think is the occult, or
some attempt at Satanism, is just the particular expression of something
very wrong somewhere. Usually something very, very wrong.
But how many parents are going to say "Our careers were more important
than listening to little Johnny whine" or "I suspected that Uncle Fred
was doing something like that to the children, but I didn't stop him" or
"I told that boy that being the starting pitcher was the way to earn my
love"? Of course not. They're the loving parents...*they* can't be at
fault. They're the bereaved parents...nobody else can blame them,
either. So it has to be _something_ else -- something outside their
family. (ever notice how many of these families seem to be so PERFECT,
so much more so than yours and mine and anyone else's? Yeah, right) The
only thing that's unfamiliar...that's fair game for being made into the
bogeyman...is gaming. Absent parents and child abuse and pushy parents
are familiar...gaming isn't. So RP gaming is the "cause".
Contrary to the religous right's contention, there are *no* true occult
aspects to D&D. For those characters who can use magic, it's simply "I
cast a fireball spell to fry the trolls." (or "my character casts..."
for people who don't get into character even that much) That's it. Roll
some dice to find out if the trolls got adequately fried or not. Over
and over, I've heard "the AD&D rulebooks are textbooks of the occult" --
but, plain and simple, they're not. Read 'em for yourself.
I do have a few neo-Pagan friends, and I know there are a few on this
newsgroup who will correct me word-for-word in this: I've done some
reading on, and a lot of discussion of, what their religons involve, and
how modern-day 'magick' works. The important thing here is that it's all
very subtle stuff: good luck, prosperity, making bad acts rebound on the
wrongdoer, knowledge and wisdom and all that. Even what one might call
"black magick" is _still_ subtle: bad luck, sickness, and the like. No
fireballs. No lightning bolts. No magic carpets. Real-world occultism
has no equivalent for even the simplest of D&D spells, like "Light"
(makes a dark area bright enough to see) or "Magic Missile" (causes a
magical arrow to shoot from the wizard's finger). Conversely, a spell to
cause vaguely-defined good luck, or keep away unproductive thoughts, or
even the classic case of making a neighboring peasant's cow quit giving
milk, has minimal place in a fantasy game.
The connection between gaming and either Satanism (which, remember, is a
Christian sect) or Paganism (non-Christian groups of all sorts) appears
to be in the concept that "People who follow these religons think they
can do magic; pretend wizards in this game do pretend magic. Therefore,
one is the cause of the other."
By the way, if you're curious, I don't believe in magic, though I'll
admit that I would not want to set up my booth at a game convention
without my "lucky" cigar box for a cashbox.... 8-)
My usual tag line for the gaming/occult/demon thing: "We play games
about make-belive monsters and pretend magic; they think it's all really
true. Now WHICH of us has the problem with reality, again?"
-- Jean
Wintertree Software | Remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
The great wheel has turned again and SPI is avenged!
Jeremy Reaban
Watching Willow does make it more likely that you'll commit suicide, rather
than endure watching it in it's entirity.
Will Grzanich <grza...@uiuc.edu> wrote in article <
Will Grzanich
In article <335937...@wtsoft.REMOVE.ME.com>,
jmcg...@wtsoft.REMOVE.ME.com says...
>A psychology professor I had in college pointed out something rather
>interesting, in a discussion of illegal drug use and related matters:
>The "proof" that is generally presented to show that marijuana use
>causes hard drug use is that almost all hard drug users started with
>marijuana. When he was a graduate student in the 60's, he and his fellow
>psych grad students experimented with just about every drug known to
>man. Most of them (except those that totally messed themselves up) went
>on to become PhD's. By the same standard of "proof", then, it could be
>"shown" that drug use causes one to get a doctorate in psychology.
Heh...isn't faulty logic fun? Remember...the contrapositive is your
friend. ;)
Good post, BTW. Very comprehensive and well put; couldn't have said it
better myself.
Will Grzanich
In article <01bc4d1a$dd2047e0$f46703d0@jer>, j...@xxxinlink.com says...
>
>Watching Willow does make it more likely that you'll commit suicide,
rather
>than endure watching it in it's entirity.
Don't start.
Travis Hall
Tmudd (tm...@aol.com) wrote:
: I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
: with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
: week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
This is quite possibly true, as far as it goes. However, you have not
mentioned any of his other interests and background. What was the alleged
motivation for the murder attempt? I've never yet experienced a
roleplaying session which even vaguely encouraged the murder of one's own
family - there almost has to be another motive. What movies did he watch?
And if he was in to "The Sound of Music", should that also be implicated
in the alleged crimes? I've heard this sort of thing many times before,
but I am yet to hear facts which actually connect the roleplaying interest
to the atrocities mentioned. Why does playing a particular game evoke more
attention than what he had for breakfast?
BTW, Satanism gets a bad rap too. I remember reading somewhere that the
first form of Satanism as a true religion involved the worship of Satan as
the redeemed representative of of God on Earth. In other words, the
worshippers of this religion believed that Satan, previously God's
representative on Earth, had raised a heavenly army against God. One third
of the angels rebelled against him, and lost, being expelled from heaven
and descending to hell, a view also held by many more orthodox Christian
organisations. However, the Satanists believed (IIRC) that Satan had
repented his evil ways, and God, in his incomprehensible divine grace, had
forgiven him, and made Satan once again His Earthly representative. Thus,
the Satanists revered Satan the same way Christians might revere the Pope
- as a good and holy representative of God. Which, of course, is all very
interesting, but probably largely irrelevant, as I doubt this guy was a
member of that particular religion, and doesn't have anything to do with
roleplaying, and quite possibly not with his alleged crimes. Satanism has
since been corrupted into something more akin to an excuse to do horrid
things by some people, but it is probably a good idea to keep an open mind
about those who admit to being Satanists, because it is still possible
that there are a few adherents of the original Satanic religion around.
: As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
: mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
: clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
: games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
: harmless?
I really can't say whether there was a connection between this person's
roleplaying and his alleged crimes, because all I know is what you have
said. However, it occurs to me that this person may have already been
rather... unbalanced, shall we say? Obviously, we of the general public
cannot prove a lack of a connection. But consider this: a certain
percentage of the population plays roleplaying games, and a certain
percentage of the population commits horrible crimes. Simply because a
particular person falls into both categories doesn't mean anything. Now,
if it was shown that there is a correlation between roleplayers and those
with mental disorders leading to violent crimes, then we might have to
examine the suitability of roleplaying as a hobby offered to the general
population. No such correlation has been found, so the speculation which
has been common in the media concerning this subject is meaningless. Even
if a connection between roleplaying and what Jeremy Shelton allegedly did,
even that doesn't mean much, as it could well be that his roleplaying was
merely a trigger for what would have occured anyway, or that roleplaying
was merely an indicator of the events to come (you'd need to examine his
play to determine that one) or that his roleplaying interest had the same
cause as his alleged crimes. To put the blame on roleplaying, you need to
show a *causal* connection between Jeremy's roleplaying and his alleged
crimes.
In the past, the media has not bothered to pursue the supposed connections
between roleplaying and undesirable actions past "he roleplayed and he did
THIS!". It really requires closer examination than that.
From my own experience, I have found that sometimes, when I have felt
angry, frustrated or sad, a good roleplaying game can help forget my
worries, and the time taken away from brooding thoughts can bring me back
to the rest of my life with a more balanced outlook - just like any other
hobby, I suppose. And sometimes, we can learn something through
roleplaying. A friend of mine played a hideously racist character in a
campaign I ran for two years. At the end of that time, he said that he
really felt he understood racism a lot better. He still despised the
concept, but at least now he understands a little better what is going
through the racist person's mind.
So, there's a lot more to roleplaying than often meets the casual
observer's eye. Pity I live on a different continent to you, Mr Mudd.
If we were living in the same town, I might be inclined to invite you
along to experience a game. That might help give you a better
understanding of what roleplayers do.
BTW, you may find it's worth checking out a few of the other newsgroups in
the rec.games.frp hierarchy - r.g.f.advocacy especially may have many
people better able to discuss the sociology of roleplaying better than the
average reader here, as they commonly engage in that type of conversation.
As for phone interviews, if you really want to talk to me, fine, but you
pay the long-distance bill. E-mail me if you really do what to set that
up.
The Wraith
Schmoopiesmomndad
Tmudd wrote:
>
> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
Some people will assume that anything that has to do with D+D also has
to do with Satanism. You should try to find out if he was really into
satanism or if it was assumed that because he liked D+D that he had to
be into santanism. Some people picking up and looking through the older
D+D books would see mention of demons and devils and jump to the
conclusion that it is satanic in nature, when it is not.
> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
> harmless?
There has to be more to this person than D+D and satanism. Did he go to
school, did he go to church, did he do drugs or listien to Rush
Limbaugh. I doubt that the only aspects of his life were D+D and
satanism. There is probably a lot going on underneath the surface that
no one knows about. The person could be mentally unbalanced or on drugs
or both. You need to find out more about him and his family as you
stated he had a stepfather so you might see what his family situation
was like. What is his relationship with his mom and stepdad and real dad
like. Did they all get along did they fight was there a custody battle.
Much more information is needed on this guy before any kind of
hypothesis much less a conclusion can be drawn.> I'd appreciate your
thoughts.
>
> FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
> cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
> that Jeremy had some contact with role-players on the Internet.
>
> If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
> tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
> include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
> Ohio might have to say.
>
> This whole thing has got lots of people in an uproar, as you could guess.
Jason Hatter
Damn, Jean. If that was the shorter version, I'd LOVE to see the one you
emailed. That was pretty damned good.
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/rpg.html
featuring Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.html
KU KING
Hi, I'm a psychologist in the midwest, and an avid player of AD&D in my
high school and college years. Since those tough times in the '80's when
D&D was under fire as "satanic" and a potential "cause" of suicide, I've
kept tabs on research studies and such which have come out, exploring the
issue of AD&D and potential harmful effects. As I completed my master's
degree in psychology almost 10 years ago, I even attempted to do my thesis
on AD&D and suicide risk, but the topic was not found of "sufficient
scholarly interest" by my advisor at the time to allow me to pursue it.
Probably one of the best summaries of AD&D and suicide risk was in a
journal called the Skeptical Enquirer, an issue published sometime in 93
(I'm at a loss to recall the issue number, let alone the name of the
author). In a great article published in that issue, the author examines
the evidence (or lack thereof) and (il)logic use by many to condemn D&D.
I'd suggest anybody interested in reviewing the evidence look for the
article I've mentioned.
It's extremely easy to debunk notions such as that "AD&D causes
murder/suicide/insanity/etc..." if you consider what it takes to
demonstrate cause and effect. Let us assume that two boys commit suicide,
and let us also assume that it is found they played AD&D. Just because
both events occured simultaneously, does that mean one caused the other?
If it is found that both boys liked grape bubble-gum, can we assume
causation? Does grape gum cause suicidal ideation?! Should we write
editorials blasting the chewing of grape gum based on this shoddy
evidence?
What is it, theoretically, that allows one to infer cause and effect when
a person is found to play AD&D and is found to have some kind of problem
(e.g., is suicidal, neurotic, etc...)? Nothing that I know of. Does
that mean that those who don't play AD&D do not sometimes have these
traits? I have to point out that the few real research studies, even
those which explore true correlation across random samples, show that AD&D
players are LESS likely to have the kinds of problems ascribed to
role-players than the population in general! (email me privately if you
wish citations to check on this research yourself). People will always be
able to find individuals to make their point with, but the finding has to
hold across a sample to have any truth in it.
If the so-called research standard which is applied to "AD&D" studies
which purport to show pathology amongst players were applied to all areas
science, we'd be in big trouble as a nation. For example, all ice cream
would be banned. Why? Because consumption of ice-cream in an area has an
almost perfect correlation with drowning deaths. I.E., the more ice cream
one consumes, the more likely one is to suffer death by drowning. To use
the standard of reasoning that the ignorant apply to AD&D, we must assume
that ice-cream CAUSES drowning deaths. Isn't it more reasonable to think
that other (unrelated) factors are at work, i.e., both have to do with
warm weather in the area? In the same way, adolescence is a hard time for
many boys. They often feel socially detached, alienated, and even
sometimes have suicidal impulses. At the same time, adolescent boys have
varied interests: sports, girls, Coca-Cola consumption, AD&D playing,
Nintendos, etc.... Now, just because one characteristic appears at the
same time as another characteristic, is that sufficient reason to draw a
cause-effect inference? It would be easier to assume that
Nintendo-playing causes suicidal impulses, that kissing girls causes
teenage boys to join gangs, etc... following this twisted logic.
If we accept the correlational argument against AD&D, all reason in policy
issues will have to be thrown out the window. Let me demonstrate how this
might work. Let us assume that two boys in a town commit suicide, and it
is then found that both boys played AD&D. The town council gets together,
and bans AD&D. Sounds like a realistic scenario, right? By the same
reasoning, then, the following should happen as well: Since the length of
a boy's pants is in direct correlation to how well they do on standardized
academic tests such as the SAT or ITBS, then that same town should make
all boys wear longer pants than will fit them so as to increase how bright
their children are, since the first thing is assumed to CAUSE the second.
These are ludicrous examples, but this is the exact same reasoning that
many parents, churches, and the media use in attributing all sorts of ill
effects to AD&D.
Sorry if I'm rambling, but every time I hear about another incident which
attributes ill effects to AD&D based upon such shoddy reasoning, I blow my
top! The arguments used are invariably so illogical, one would hope that
people would see right through it and the silliness would end right there.
But unfortunately, many people don't think logically and fall for these
arguments.
I've forwarded a copy of this to the D&D newsgroup, for public
consideration.
Jim
<< I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
harmless?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
WorldWeaver
Tmudd wrote:
>
> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>
> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
> harmless?
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts.
>
> FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
> cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
> that Jeremy had some contact with role-players on the Internet.
>
> If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
> tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
> include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
> Ohio might have to say.
>
> But I think there are a lot of things missing from what we're being told.
The "lot of things missing" are the morals that society once took for
granted. I'm sure that Mr. Shelton and/or his attorneys would love for
all of us to believe that "an evil game" made him do what he did
(assuming, of course, that he did in fact commit the crime in
question). If they can't pin it on D&D, they'll blame TV violence,
movie violence, ideas he got off the Internet, the alignment of the
stars and planets, or orbital mind-control lasers.
Whatever the cause, of course the accused man bears no responsibility
whatsover, according to modern legalese and pychobabble. I can hear his
lawyer presenting his defense now: "Your Honor, while it may appear that
my client is guilty, he was FORCED to do what he did. That evil
Dungeons and Dragons MADE him plan the attack. Then his unfortunate
viewing of the backwards encoded subliminal messages in _Friday the 13th
Part XXVI: Jason in the Geriatric Ward_ COMPELLED him to go to the store
and buy the hammer. Then the fact that Mars was aligned with Hale-Bopp
filled him with rage utterly beyond his control. And then, in the final
act of victimization, *Satan*himself* turned him into a mere automaton,
forcing him to carry out the evil agenda of the Freemasons. HE HAD NO
CHOICE!!"
Nonsense. If this man did in fact commit the crime, then HE is
responsible. Not society. Not D&D. Not the Internet. Not the
Communist Party USA. Not card games. HE is. HE planned the attack.
HE picked up the hammer. HE swung it with malice aforethought. At any
time, HE could have chosen not to carry out the assault. HE chose to go
through with it.
Enough of this fuzzy-headedness that there is no right or wrong, that
no one is responsible for anything, that we are all puppets, and that
any act, no matter how heinous, can be blamed on something else.
Assuming the guilt of the accused, there's only one defense the judge
should accept. I've rarely heard it before, but it does, on rare
occasions, come out in court. It's the "I'm a scumbag" defense. It
goes something like this:
"Your Honor, I am guilty of the crime I have been accused of. I
committed the act in question of my own free will. No one made me do
it. No one put a gun to my head or used any other form of coercion. I
may have been influenced by games, the media, or whatever, but as a free
human being the choice was still entirely mine to commit violence
against innocent people. That's the bad decision I made. Why? Because
I'm a scumbag who doesn't know or care to do any better. But ignorance
or youth cannot excuse or mitigate my actions, since I am old enough and
wise enough to know that what I did was wrong.
"When I did what I did, I knew it was wrong, and what the consequences
were if I was to be convicted of the crime. You caught me fair and
square, and so I freely accept the punishment that you choose to impose
upon me, without appeals, legal maneuvers, or whining about how I'm a
victim of everything. I'm not the victim. The people I hurt are the
victims. *I* am the criminal, and have earned the punishment I am about
to receive. Do with me as you will."
How many lawyers do you think would drop dead of apoplexy if they heard
a truly honest criminal "defense" like the one I constructed above?
It's about time that the public, the media, and the courts reject
psychobabble and blame-shifting, and start demanding some accountability
from criminals.
--
WorldWeaver
Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4571
email:b...@succeed.net
Scott Hunter
>Probably one of the best summaries of AD&D and suicide risk was in a
>journal called the Skeptical Enquirer, an issue published sometime in 93
>(I'm at a loss to recall the issue number, let alone the name of the
>author).
The article is called "The Attacks on Role-Playing Games", is by Paul
Cardwell, Jr., and was in the Winter 1994 issue. The article itself
is available at
http://www.10mb.com/252rpg/quellen/cardwell/attacks.html
I just finished my term paper on role-playing games, so that's why I
knew that.
Scott Hunter
BattlSaint
>Some people will assume that anything that has to do with D+D also has
>to do with Satanism. You should try to find out if he was really into
>satanism or if it was assumed that because he liked D+D that he had to
>be into santanism. Some people picking up and looking through the older
>D+D books would see mention of demons and devils and jump to the
>conclusion that it is satanic in nature, when it is not.
OK. Here's the great thing. In a lot of cases RPGs do have to do
with getting into Satanism, or more properly, just generally
liberating you from Christianity.
The group who I play with doesn't have a single Christian in it!
Pretty cool, huh? But what I am trying to say is that PRGs are an
exercise of the mind. They make you think. Not just about how to kill
that monster, but also about things in general. Which is why the
government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
BattlSaint
>There is no connection between D&D and satanism.
But there should be, Isn't that right????
BattlSaint
>Uh...well, his interest in Satanism certainly couldn't have helped; but
>D&D had nothing to do with it. D&D is just a set of guidelines for
>role-playing; if this guy was doing strange things in his game that's his
Actually his D&D experience probably had more to do with it than
Satanism, if he was a true Satanist.
How many times in the typical black mass do you go out and kill hordes
of semi to extremely intelligent creatures?
aaron mark selle
> that monster, but also about things in general. Which is why the
> government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
> want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
And maybe the government is behind the TSR takeover...shouldn't you be
posting to alt.conspiracy?
D&D has nothing to do with religious beliefs or outlooks. If D&D affects
your REAL life in any significant way, you're unstable as it is. I've
been a Christian DM for six years, some of my players are Christian, some
are not - who cares? That has no relevance to role-playing ability and no
affect on how the game is played.
========================================
Aaron Selle University of Illinois
Computer Science College of Engineering
**************************
President * Days without
Illini Paintball Warriors* paintball:
Autococker * VM-68 * 3
========se...@students.uiuc.edu=========
Travis Hall
BattlSaint (dav...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu) wrote:
:
: OK. Here's the great thing. In a lot of cases RPGs do have to do
: with getting into Satanism, or more properly, just generally
: liberating you from Christianity.
"Liberating you from Christianity"? Why do you think that it is such a
good thing to be "free" of Christianity? I'm not a Christian either, but I
don't consider that to be a liberation.
True Satanism is just another religion (albeit one with a bad reputation).
Popular Satanism is just a justification, in some people's minds, to
commit antisocial activities. Not being Christian does not imply an
association with either form of Satanism. Nor does roleplaying encourage
most players to become Satanists.
: The group who I play with doesn't have a single Christian in it!
: Pretty cool, huh?
My groups (yes, the plural is intentional) have a number of Christians
in them. So what?
: But what I am trying to say is that PRGs are an
: exercise of the mind. They make you think. Not just about how to kill
: that monster, but also about things in general. Which is why the
: government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
: want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
Yes, RPGs do make one think. However, thinking does not necessarily lead
one away from Christianity. In fact, there are quite valid arguements for
the existance of God. I am not Christian, yet I have never found a means
to negate some of those arguements, due to the fact that those arguements
are made from a different point of view from my own. I believe that if I
assumed the same axioms as many Christians, I would also come to the
conclusion that the Christian God is real. Many people I have discussed
this matter with have thought about it a lost, but still hold to Christian
beliefs. In fact, many of the greatest thinkers in the history of humanity
have been Christians.
The leaders of the Christian churches do not, I believe, have some hidden
agenda leading them to attempt to brainwash the entire human race into
accepting their religion. They would like everyone to be Christians, of
course, but that is because they truely believe that that would be
beneficial for those people.
It is quite damaging to the image of roleplaying to claim that we are
associated with the anti-Christian popular Satanism (as opposed to the
true original Satanism which was a benign offshoot of Christianity - see
my earlier post) as this movement is actively damaging to society as a
whole. I have never encountered an RPG which encouraged such an
association, and such a claim is false. To make such a claim is entirely
different from pointing out that roleplayers tend to be thinkers, and that
some thinkers do not agree with Christianity. Roleplayers in general are
not opposed to religions, Christian or otherwise. We have diverse
backgrounds and many of us enjoy the fact that our hobby allows us to
associate with others of different religion, race, sex and shoe size. To
understand the similarities and differences between all the different
groups in our whole often helps to construct a more believable and
enjoyable game world, and conversely our game worlds can (though they
don't always) help us to understand each other.
Just to provide a tangible counterexample, let me tell you about an
tournament roleplaying module I played in once. It was called Blind Faith,
and was all about the Second Coming of Christ, and specifically how it
affected five people of diverse religions. I played a character named
Emily Markovich, a practising Catholic. The other characters were,
respectively, jewish, non-practising Catholic, atheist and agnositc.
During this module, despite the reappearance of Christ, my Emily very
nearly lost her faith in God, but she found new reason to believe just in
time. Despite being atheist myself, I enjoyed the chance to be Christian
for a few hours, just as I might enjoy being a wizard or a starship
captain for a few hours, and was awarded the prize for "Best Emily" at the
end of the tournament.
Now I know I'm rambling, so I'll shut up now.
--
Why is it that when I do finally get around to creating a .sig file, I
can't think of a single witty thing to say in it?
The Wraith
Will Grzanich
In article <335a83fd...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
dav...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu says...
>
>>Uh...well, his interest in Satanism certainly couldn't have helped; but
>>D&D had nothing to do with it. D&D is just a set of guidelines for
>>role-playing; if this guy was doing strange things in his game that's
his
>>own doing, not the game's. D&D's no more likely to cause anyone to
>>commit murder than watching "Willow."
>
>
>Actually his D&D experience probably had more to do with it than
>Satanism, if he was a true Satanist.
What are the chances that he wasn't just some stupid, screwed-up kid who
thought it'd be cool to worship the devil?
Tim Breen
> It's a chance for ... the girl
> who's all legs and nose to be the brave and beautiful warrior-queen of
> Neverwhere.
Is that near Amphipolous? <g>
-- Tim
"Why not seize the pleasure at once? How often is happiness destroyed by
preparation, foolish preparation?" --Jane Austen
Personal: http://personalweb.lightside.com/Pfiles/breen1.html
Gaming:
Tim Breen
> D&D has nothing to do with religious beliefs or outlooks. If D&D affects
> your REAL life in any significant way, you're unstable as it is.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY true. Getting into D&D and then AD&D helped
me:
o develop friendships that have lasted nearly 20 years;
o get a good grip on certain aspects of probability theory;
o equate fractions (1 on a d8) with percentages (12.5%) in a snap;
o learn to program in AppleSoft BASIC (and later other languages) so
that I could write a character generation program. This in
particular
lead to my current career as a computer consultant.
While I _may_ be unstable, I still think that my early interest in D&D
has helped me in a number of significant ways.
Tim Breen
You might want to get in contact with Ed Gibson, the Role Playing Game
Association's Regional Director in Ohio. Ed's email address is
EdGi...@aol.com. I hope this helps!
Tmudd wrote:
>
> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>
> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
> harmless?
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts.
>
> FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
> cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
> that Jeremy had some contact with role-players on the Internet.
>
> If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
> tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
> include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
> Ohio might have to say.
>
> This whole thing has got lots of people in an uproar, as you could guess.
> But I think there are a lot of things missing from what we're being told.
>
> Tom Mudd
> City Editor, The Morning Journal, Lorain, Ohio
> E-mail: tm...@ibm.net
> Phone: 1-800-765-6901, ext. 560
-- Tim
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <5jjp2e$dd$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, zzt...@mailbox.uq.edu.au
(Travis Hall) wrote:
> The leaders of the Christian churches do not, I believe, have some hidden
> agenda leading them to attempt to brainwash the entire human race into
> accepting their religion. They would like everyone to be Christians, of
> course, but that is because they truely believe that that would be
> beneficial for those people.
As my priest has told me: "You cannot compell somebody to the Church. If
you use force, you are negating Love, and it is Love that is closeness to
God."
> true original Satanism which was a benign offshoot of Christianity - see
> my earlier post) as this movement is actively damaging to society as a
I would like to see the citation for your claim. This is strange enough
that it might actually be the case, but I want to know your source, so I
can check it out myself.
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <335a84ed...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
dav...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (BattlSaint) wrote:
> OK. Here's the great thing. In a lot of cases RPGs do have to do
> with getting into Satanism, or more properly, just generally
> liberating you from Christianity.
Funny, I guess I'd better either quite gaming or quit going to liturgy.
Better tell all the other Christian gamers this, too. Never mind, I'll
just tell you what a twit you are.
> The group who I play with doesn't have a single Christian in it!
> Pretty cool, huh? But what I am trying to say is that PRGs are an
Pretty cool? Tell me, when do you intend to make it to puberty.
> exercise of the mind. They make you think. Not just about how to kill
> that monster, but also about things in general. Which is why the
> government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
> want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
So, when do you intend to get treatment for your paranoia?
Jon Paradise
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
.>
.> In article <335a84ed...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
.> dav...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (BattlSaint) wrote:
.> > Which is why the
.> > government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
.> > want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
.>
.> So, when do you intend to get treatment for your paranoia?
No, man... the black helicopters are there, I swear it...
-Jon
--
"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and
democracy - but that could change."
-former Vice President Dan Quayle.
Travis Hall
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: In article <5jjp2e$dd$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, zzt...@mailbox.uq.edu.au
: (Travis Hall) wrote:
:
: > true original Satanism which was a benign offshoot of Christianity - see
: > my earlier post) as this movement is actively damaging to society as a
:
: I would like to see the citation for your claim. This is strange enough
: that it might actually be the case, but I want to know your source, so I
: can check it out myself.
Okay, as I said in my first post on the subject, I have been unsure of my
terms, and the source I have on hand refers to this group as "devil
worshipper", rather than Satanists - though the term "Satanist", I
believe, would just as easily apply.
The group to which I refer are the Yazidis, a Middle Eastern religious
group who, like early Christians, believe that the Devil was once the
chief angel but was expelled from heaven for his "rebellious pride".
However, this group believe he later repented, and God restored him to his
position, and the "Devil" now rules the world on His behalf. I find the
parallel to the Christian believe in repentence and redemption quite
fascinating.
The source I have on hand is the World Book Encyclopaedia, 1984 edition,
under the entry DEVIL WORSHIP. I do remember coming across a better source
once, but that was years ago and I have no real hope of either remembering
what the source was or finding it again. I believe that that source stated
that the Yazidi (?) belief system was a deriviative of early
Christianisty.
Note that I used the term "benign" in my previous source. I don't claim
that Christianity was responsible for the mockery that is called Satanism
today. What I don't know is whether the Yazidis believe that Jesus Christ
existed, and if so, do they believe he was the Son of God, a prophet, just
a man, or something else?
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <5jm8j4$4ll$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, zzt...@mailbox.uq.edu.au
(Travis Hall) wrote:
> The group to which I refer are the Yazidis, a Middle Eastern religious
> group who, like early Christians, believe that the Devil was once the
The worshippers of the Peacock Spirit! I've heard of them. They give
daily offers of blood upon a stone to "el Shaitan". The sect is still
around, and it's only temple (and only adherents) are in Iraq. Every once
in a while, they have to prove that they are not "satanists" in the
negative sense. However, I would not attribute to them being "original
Satanists", with all other groups claiming "Satanism" to be twisted
reflections or descendents. I'd say that any "Satanist" we meet in the
West comes from a different tradition.
> that the Yazidi (?) belief system was a deriviative of early
> Christianisty.
Yes, it's a sort of "redeemed Gnostic" derivative. Most Gnostic Christian
heresies (of course, not all Gnostics were or are Christian--for the
pedants out there) posit that the "Evil Being", whatever his name, is the
ruler of this world, but that the Evil Being is still evil. The Yazidi
have a "redeemed" or "healed" "Formerly Evil Being"--taking the verse
"Satan is the King of this world" literally, but with a different twist
than most people put on it.
Schmoopiesmomndad
> > exercise of the mind. They make you think. Not just about how to kill
> > that monster, but also about things in general. Which is why the
> > government and relegion will never accept RPGs, never. They don't
> > want people to think, they want people to believe propaganda.
>
Great this guy can start his own D+D militia.
Travis Hall
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: In article <5jm8j4$4ll$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, zzt...@mailbox.uq.edu.au
: (Travis Hall) wrote:
:
: > The group to which I refer are the Yazidis, a Middle Eastern religious
: > group who, like early Christians, believe that the Devil was once the
[snip]
: However, I would not attribute to them being "original
: Satanists", with all other groups claiming "Satanism" to be twisted
: reflections or descendents. I'd say that any "Satanist" we meet in the
: West comes from a different tradition.
Yes, I agree that they are not "original" in the sense that all other
Satanists are derived from them. I meant "original" in the sense that they
were not derived from any other form of Satanism.
: > that the Yazidi (?) belief system was a deriviative of early
: > Christianisty.
:
: Yes, it's a sort of "redeemed Gnostic" derivative.
[more snip]
Hmm, interesting. You have expanded my knowledge of the subject. Maybe
now, with that expanded knowledge (and when I get a little more time) I
might track down some more info in them again.
KU KING
In article <bjm10-23049...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>> true original Satanism which was a benign offshoot of Christianity -
see
>> my earlier post) as this movement is actively damaging to society as a
>
>I would like to see the citation for your claim. This is strange enough
>that it might actually be the case, but I want to know your source, so I
>can check it out myself.
>
>
This is probably phrased a big strongly by the original poster, but he has
a point. I'm not very well tutored in the Old Testament, but I do know
that Lucifer means "bringer of light," and I can give you citations of old
legends, etc... which explore how, in early historic times, "Lucifer" was
the term for that entity which first exposed man to temptation, rather
than being the "pointy-eared evil pitchfork-bearing scoundrel" we view
today.
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <19970425150...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, kuk...@aol.com
(KU KING) wrote:
> This is probably phrased a big strongly by the original poster, but he has
> a point. I'm not very well tutored in the Old Testament, but I do know
> that Lucifer means "bringer of light," and I can give you citations of old
> legends, etc... which explore how, in early historic times, "Lucifer" was
> the term for that entity which first exposed man to temptation, rather
> than being the "pointy-eared evil pitchfork-bearing scoundrel" we view
> today.
Wrong on several points:
The identification of "lucifer" with satan is probably Medieval or early
AD. The only reference to "lucifer" in the Old Testament is a sarcastic
comment by a Prophet, directed at a king. "How, O Lucifer, art thou
fallen from thy lofty home." There was a king called "Lucifer" by his
yes-men, as an egoboo. The Prophet made fun of that practice.
Every other error falls into place in light of that correction.
I suggest you actually study your source material before commenting upon it.
Patrick Higgins
In a previous article, b...@succeed.net (WorldWeaver) says:
>Tmudd wrote:
>>
>> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
>> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
>> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>>
>> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
>> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
>> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
Yeah, the same police department who throws prisoner's heads into benchs
and illegally strip searches people. ( Incidents that all occured within
the last two years ).
>> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
>> harmless?
I am not sure if you work for the Lorain Urinal (Journal) or the Comical
(Chronicle) Telegram, but both have already managed to do their fair share
of attacking DnD already.
Be proud, I know a few people (at least) who now cannot
play this game or Magic: the Gathering because of these attacks.
It was mass reported on all local TV stations about the DnD thing.
Please do not comment to any press asking about this issue. More fuel
is what they are looking for because an article that praise DnD and
Magic: the Gathering as thinking, role playing, problem solving games
would be boring.
Our local media (I too live in Lorain County, Ohio, actually Elyria, knew
this kid (I think)) has managed to once again turn this into a DnD issue.
There was a whole article in the paper about how bad the game is. The
local media was calling all the game shops in the area, most of which
told them politly "no thanks", except one who did make a strong case for
the game, although the article did not focus on the comments of the
store owner. The Comical Telegram, our local (loco?)
paper had originally reported this as a satanist who went nuts. 1 day
later when it was discovered that he played DnD, they threw the whole
satanist issue to the side and made it out to be a gaming issue, also
ignoring the fact that this man is obviously mentally deranged. His diary
described the attack and a person who was supposed to help him WHO DOES NOT
EXIST. But all the media wants to focus on is the fact that the kid played
Dungeons and Dragons.
It is like I have had to say way tooo many times in the recent past.
"If you play crazy eights does that make you a complusive gambler?"
>>
>> FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
>> cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
>> that Jeremy had some contact with role-players on the Internet
>>
>> If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
>> tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
>> include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
>> Ohio might have to say.
All of the people I have talked to do not want to talk to the media because
of the unfair treatment us gamers have recieved. Please do not waste your
time.
The man commited this act of his own volition. He held the claw hammer
as he brought it down upon his step brothers head (who is still in the
hospital), not some Dungeons and Dragons book. It is not the Dungeons
and Dragons book that now has the blood spilled upon it by its own
hands. The man was SICK. It is not the Dungeons and Dragons books that
got him there. The man was a SATANIST.
In order for us to meet the standard that had been set as the "average"
Dungeons and Dragons player,
We would all have to be evil, satanist and sacrifice
small animals every time we get together to play. I am so tired of this image
that is portrayed.
The media needs to report this issue as what it is, a sick, sick man
who killed his family.
pmh
--
Patrick M. Higgins )
<====================================*====(O
aa5...@lcfn.org )
Craig L Wigda
In article <335DC6...@lightside.com>,
Tim Breen <bre...@lightside.SPAMSTOPPER.com> wrote:
>You might want to get in contact with Ed Gibson, the Role Playing Game
>Association's Regional Director in Ohio. Ed's email address is
>EdGi...@aol.com. I hope this helps!
>
>>
>> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
>> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
>> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>>
>> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
>> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
>> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
>> harmless?
>>
>>
>> FYI, the guy was from Elyria, Ohio, and his name is Jeremy Shelton. The
>> cops copied some files off his hard drive, so it's at least conceivable
>>
>> If any of you want to offer opinions, feel free to e-mail me at
>> tm...@ibm.net. If you're willing to be interviewed by telephone, please
>> include a number. I'm especially interested in hearing what people from
>> Ohio might have to say.
>>
>> But I think there are a lot of things missing from what we're being told.
>>
>> Tom Mudd
>> City Editor, The Morning Journal, Lorain, Ohio
>> E-mail: tm...@ibm.net
>> Phone: 1-800-765-6901, ext. 560
The first thing you need to remember is that Dungeons & Dragons is a role
playing game. The key word here is a game. Like any game it can be a
good or bad game, it all depends on the people playing it.
The key to this entire situation is your statement
" with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this"
now with this statment most people will like the two togeather and think
that if you do one then the other follows naturally. This is not the
case. The individual in question may have been playing a D&D game that
satanic over tones in it but that does not mean the D&D game in general
has satanic over tones. It all depends on the type of game the game master
and players wish to play in.
I played in one game at a convention that every person in the group was
required to play an evil character. There was a prize at the end of the
game for the player that killed the most people, the most creativly
during the game. Now is the game evil or just the mind of the game master
and the people playing the game? This kind of game should send a warning
message to the parents that the people in the game have a problem with
society as it exsists.
I've played for over 17 years and run games at conventions for 5 years. One
of my best games was where the players were good and had to resque a
princess to prevent a war (she was kidnapped by a person in the government
that wanted the war to continue). Now this game had the players doing a
positive thing (saving a lives by stopping the war).
If you use role playing as impromptue acting (similar to what some
physchiratis (sp) do when they have the husband and wife act like the other)
you get some insight into the persons thoughts. If a person can play an
evil character it is because there is a little bit of evil in them that they
draw upon to act out the role. I know some people that just can not bring
them selves to play evil characters.
Now if the person is drawing on the little bit of evil in them for the
character did the game make them evil? or was the little bit ov evil in
them already? This is the question most people get wrong, they like to
say the game put the evil in them. But everyone is born with the weight
of sin upon their sholders (sorry forgot the Bible verse on this one).
But our society as a whole looks for something to blame for the evil in
the world. Because to admint that a person did the evil of their own
free well means that "They" can also be capabile of evil as well and that
bothers a lot of people.
As an example there is a trial going on here in San Diego (where I live).
A boy 16 (was 15 at the time of the murders) killed his parents, sister,
and grandparents (rather violently). Now the boy faces trial as an
adult with a maximum possible sentence of life in prison. The defense
lawyer is using the defense line of, "he did this due to...". Now the due
to stuff is: the boy was on anti-depresent drugs, had consumed beer the
day of the killing, and was adictied to "role playing like" video games
that had a violent nature about them (addiction was defined as the boy
playing the games for 6 to 10 hours at a time). The video games in question
are your standard beat the monster and win points, but the lawyer is trying
to draw on the "unknown" factor of the "role playing". Everyone knows what
a video game is but not everyone knows what a role playing game is. The
lawyer is trying to "muddy" the waters with terminallogy that the jurry
will not totally understand to cause "reasonable dought". This is what he
needs to get his client off of the murder one charge. The dought being that
the boy was not totally in control of his actions.
Now no disrespect to the parents but there was a problem here before the
child commited the murders. The first one being: why was the boy on
the anti-depresent drugs? Being on this type of medication at the age of
15 means that the boy had serious mental problems. Second, why was he
allowd to have access to beer? why did his parents not keep a better eye
on him (I remember my sister getting caught several times trying to
sneak a beer, did not appear that hard to catch her to me). Thrid: why
did his parents allow him to with draw from the family and the world at
large for 6 to 10 hours at a time playing video games, never mind that
they were violent.
You've got a case here with a depressed boy on drugs that was allowed to
run away from the world (into his video games), why? I do not care if the
video games were the "Care Bears go out to lunch" letting the boy with
draw for that amount of time was crazy. I believe that part of the problem
is our society. A large number of people think "that if I take this pill
I'll be fine". We look for quick fixes or to pass the blame to someone or
something else (in this case the drug, beer, game) in our case the public
is looking to blame: dungeons & dragons and satanism. But I believe that
the blame is on the boy and his parents. Why was he allowed to be involved
with satanism? If his parents felt Dungeons & Dragons was such a bad game
why did they allow him to play it? They were his parents and it is their
responsibility to raise their childern to be "morally responsible".
I'm currently working up to teaching a Sunday Shcool class on "Growing
Kids GODs Way". It is biblically oriented class on rasing your childern
to have strong morals. The class matrial calls out in several places that
for the last 40 years or so, the way to raise childern was very
"premissive". This meathod feels that the child will learn what is right
and wrong on their own. But who are they going to learn this right and
wrong from? the TV, the media, schools, friends, and family. But the
moral fiber of TV, media, and schools is lacking (I've been looking for
a good school for my son, age 4, one public school when written to asking
about moral values responded, "What moral values, you've got to be
kidding".). That leave the family and friends. But if the family is not
spending time with the child they are not going to beable to teach him.
That leaves his friends. But is anyone monitoring his friends to see that
they are the correct sort of friends? Not the low to no moral schools.
And TV and media are more interested in selling a product then teaching
morals. So the answer comes up as NO ONE.
Sorry for such a long post but you've kind of hit a nerve with me. People
today look to pass the blame to someone or something else. BECAUSE THEY
DO NOT WANT TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS OR IN-ACTIONS.
If the boy that tried to kill his parents used a gun would you blame
the manufactor of the gun? I hope not. A gun is a tool that can be used
for good or evil. Role playing games like so many other things in this
world today can be used for good or evil. It all comes down to the user
of the product.
If you wish to talk to me more please email me. If you wish to do a phone
interview please email me and let me know and I'll be happy to arrange
a time when I'm sitting still long enough to talk to you.
Craig Wigda
- Increase the Entropy in the Universe, Have Children. -
JL
>>You might want to get in contact with Ed Gibson, the Role Playing Game
>>Association's Regional Director in Ohio. Ed's email address is
>>EdGi...@aol.com. I hope this helps!
>>
>>Tmudd wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
>>> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
>>> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
>>>
>>> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
>>> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
>>> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
>>> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
>>> harmless?
<snip>
>>> Tom Mudd
>>> City Editor, The Morning Journal, Lorain, Ohio
>>> E-mail: tm...@ibm.net
>>> Phone: 1-800-765-6901, ext. 560
As far as any connections between the two activities : D&D and
Satanism : there is none. I know a Baptist pastor who plays D&D,
along with many other good Christian people who also happen to be
gamers (most of my role-playing group is).
As far as connection between these activities and the murders : there
may as well be a connection found between the nutcase who kills his
family and buries them in the flower bed and his penchance for
gardening, ie -- It is a ridiculous claim.
There are a number of organizations (including the Young Einstein's
Society and the American Institute of Psychology (I may have the exact
name wrong)) which have conducted studies on the effects of RPGs on
those who play them and the consenus is that there are no harmful
effects.
An article in the Skeptical Inquirer debunking the "RPGs are Bad" myth
can be found at the following URL:
http://www.10mb.com/252rpg/quellen/cardwell/attacks.html
The Committee for the Advancement of RolePlaying Games has it's
Website and links to much of the material I spoke about here :
http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/carpga.htm
Also, one has to look at the number of roleplayers (RRers) around the
world to determine if there are truly harmful effects or if
Role-playing just happens to be a hobby that a we unfortunately share
with a few mentally disturbed folks.
The last figures I have for the number of role-players is based on the
sale of TSR's "2nd Edition Player's Handbook" about four or five years
ago. At that time, nearly 5 million copies of the 2ndEdPHB had been
sold in the United States. The number has undoubtedly gone up.
One also has to take into account that not every player owns a copy of
the PHB (the ratio in my group is 1 copy per 4 players), and that AD&D
is not the only RPG on the market.
I would estimate that in the United States alone there are around 20
million RPers. With such numbers, if D&D had any harmful effects, I
doubt the AMA would have allowed TSR to continue to produce it.
I have been playing D&D for 11-12 years now, as have most of those I
play with. No one in my group has ever killed ourselves, pacticed
Satanism, or been convicted of anything other than a traffic
violation.
Interestingly enough, the players who left our group left because they
got into a bad crowd of people. They started using drugs and getting
into trouble with the law, and stopped playing D&D or having any
contact with our gaming group. This would seem to indicate that D&D
is mostly a healthy social activity...a far better one than sharing
needles, loitering (and causing disturbances) or joining a gang.
Also, as a matter of record, the only teen suicides that have taken
place in years in our small town were two devout Christian, Honor Roll
high school students.
Does this mean that Christianity leads to people killing themselves?
Or was it the grades?
I would hope you see the point I am trying to make here.
I would be willing to take a phone interview. Contact me via E-mail
if interested (slei...@northernnet.com), as we will need to set up a
time during which I will be free.
-Oarim
Your mind exists within the Universe,
The universe exists within your Mind.
MyThIrAn
JL wrote:
>
> >In article <335DC6...@lightside.com>,
> >Tim Breen <bre...@lightside.SPAMSTOPPER.com> wrote:
>
> >>You might want to get in contact with Ed Gibson, the Role Playing Game
> >>Association's Regional Director in Ohio. Ed's email address is
> >>EdGi...@aol.com. I hope this helps!
> >>
> >>Tmudd wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm a newspaper editor in Lorain County, Ohio, where a 21-year-old guy
> >>> with an interest in Dungeons & Dragons and Satanism allegedly tried this
> >>> week to kill his brother and mother and stepfather with a claw hammer.
> >>>
> >>> As you see it, are there any connections between the two interests I've
> >>> mentioned and what he tried to do? Or is this just a situation in which
> >>> clueless cops and news people will try to pin the blame on role-playing
> >>> games -- something that a lot of people enjoy and is actually pretty
> >>> harmless?
>
>
> >>> Tom Mudd
> >>> City Editor, The Morning Journal, Lorain, Ohio
> >>> E-mail: tm...@ibm.net
> >>> Phone: 1-800-765-6901, ext. 560
>
people realy do get up to weid things in america dont they
i can hardly belive you were founded by the great british empire :P
j/k guys cool it :)
--
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