and it begins again.
Sidhain
a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
Justin Mohareb
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6hIz5.18903$nk3.9...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Which lesson? "When you make books, the customers will buy them"? "When
the market has a demand for something, supply it"?
I'm curious as to why everyone thought they wouldn't release any sort of
splat books. Hey, this time they're doubling up! Isn't that swell?
JJ Mohareb
Aaron F. Bourque
>"Fighters and Monks"
>a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
>Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
>Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
Firstly: it's a complete Fighter AND Monk handbook.
Secondly: Welcome to Game Publishing 101. You don't make the bulk of
your profit printing rulebooks. You make the bulk of your profit printing
supplements. Why? Because supplements generally are smaller and cost
less to print, but can still be sold at a less than fair mark up.
Besides, I think WotC is doing the smart thing and including more than
one class per book.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Being grown up all the time is only a sign of immaturity.
Come on, people! Grow up! Act stupid!
Chris Simpson
Sidhain wrote:
> "Fighters and Monks"
> a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
> Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
> Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
Some CO's learn the hard way...
BlakGard
>a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
>Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
>Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
And which lesson might that be?
The "role-playing game companies are businesses and need to make money" lesson?
The "it is impossible to continue a product line without product material"
lesson?
I'd say they learned them quite well.
What players who think your way need to learn is:
The "stop thinking that you have to buy every book released in order to play
the game" lesson.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
Chad Englin
>
> Firstly: it's a complete Fighter AND Monk handbook.
>
> Secondly: Welcome to Game Publishing 101. You don't make the bulk of
> your profit printing rulebooks. You make the bulk of your profit printing
> supplements. Why? Because supplements generally are smaller and cost
> less to print, but can still be sold at a less than fair mark up.
>
Actually, no. The bulk of WOTC's profit is expected to be made off the core
rulebooks. Supplements exist primarily to drive sales of additional PHBs,
DMGs, and MMs.
But then again, who cares? Buy it or don't. I don't see what the problem is.
It's like being upset that they released *another* of those damn modules
you're now going to be forced to used in your campaign. What jerks.
Dr Nuncheon
Sidhain <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Fighters and Monks"
>a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
>Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
>Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
Which lesson? The one that White Wolf, AEG, and all sorts of other
companies learned from TSR?
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
Hari the Monk
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6hIz5.18903$nk3.9...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
> Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
> Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
>
>
>
I've got no problem at all with WotC releasing new supplements, so long as
they don't break the rules already established by the core rule books. That
was the main thing that I hated about the 'Complete ___ Handbooks'. They
had outright rules changes that couldn't be found anywhere else.
From what I understand, the 'Fighters and Monks' book will have 'recipes',
suggestions on how to make a 'Cavalier', or a 'Roman Legionary', or a
'Spanish Conquistador', and so on. This I can fully accept and would
welcome.
Hari the Monk
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
> Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
> Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
What's the problem here? Has someone threatened your life if you don't
buy all the products?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Beau Yarbrough
Chris Simpson <Chr...@mho.net> wrote:
> > "Fighters and Monks"
> > a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
> >
> > Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
> >
> > Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
>
> Some CO's learn the hard way...
Learn WHAT?
How is it that they're supposed to pay the rent after everyone's bought
the three core 3E books? Modules? They don't sell well. WotC may be
swell people, I don't really know, but I'm not going to send them
checks every month out of the goodness of their heart. But I will be
picking up the Sorcerer/Wizard and Rogue/Bard books, and pay part of
the rent those months.
That's how business works.
Stormhound
> Actually, no. The bulk of WOTC's profit is expected to be made off the core
> rulebooks. Supplements exist primarily to drive sales of additional PHBs,
> DMGs, and MMs.
Since when? The impression I had was that they were selling the PHB/DMG/MM
set as loss leaders, to draw people into the game to buy more supplements and
stuff. I know there was discussion of this in some places, but heck if I can
recall the references to give you.
> But then again, who cares? Buy it or don't. I don't see what the problem is.
> It's like being upset that they released *another* of those damn modules
> you're now going to be forced to used in your campaign. What jerks.
Yeah, I agree. Nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head to make them buy (or
at least, nobody in the store I frequent...maybe we're just buying enough to not
merit a Customer Service Death Patrol), so why gripe? Did someone expect them
to put out a 512-page PHB with all the possible options? Does someone not think
that there will be any further innovation in the line, as has happened with
prior editions? Sheesh.
--
Stormhound
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm
Sidhain
"Aaron F. Bourque" <afbo...@aol.compliance> wrote in message
news:20000925093739...@ng-ff1.aol.com...
> >a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
> >
> >Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
> >
> >Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
>
>
> Secondly: Welcome to Game Publishing 101. You don't make the bulk of
> your profit printing rulebooks. You make the bulk of your profit printing
> supplements. Why? Because supplements generally are smaller and cost
> less to print, but can still be sold at a less than fair mark up.
> > Besides, I think WotC is doing the smart thing and including more than
> one class per book.
>
Actually the primary rulebook is where most people spend their money, few people
buy supplements...
unless those supplements are so packed with information the system they are used
for is less important.
And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to ruin in
part?
Sidhain
(or
> at least, nobody in the store I frequent...maybe we're just buying enough to
not
> merit a Customer Service Death Patrol), so why gripe? Did someone expect them
> to put out a 512-page PHB with all the possible options? Does someone not
think
> that there will be any further innovation in the line, as has happened with
> prior editions? Sheesh.
>
> --
A) If the game supplements don't make enough money WoTC will disappear from
Hasbro. The more supplements they make the less chance any supplement they have
of making a major profit.
Especially since with D20 OGL, many can write supplements for DND 3.
B) A lot of people complained about the CPHB products, here and elsewhere, so
how can you justify to them the continuing of the same trend with DND3
Sidhain
lesson?
> The "it is impossible to continue a product line without product material"
> lesson?
>
> I'd say they learned them quite well.
>
> What players who think your way need to learn is:
> The "stop thinking that you have to buy every book released in order to play
> the game" lesson.
>
no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is detrimental to
your profit margins in the long run.
Sidhain
> suggestions on how to make a 'Cavalier', or a 'Roman Legionary', or a
> 'Spanish Conquistador', and so on. This I can fully accept and would
> welcome.
>
> Hari the Monk
>
Gee thats exactly what the "Complete books of" were
suggestions on how the system has to be altered to allow X character types,
although for the mos tpart hey weren't major rule changes.
>
>
>
Sidhain
> What's the problem here? Has someone threatened your life if you don't
> buy all the products?
>
>
No you moron.
A) Do you want DND to continue to be around?
B) If they overwhelm the market the same way the have in the past do you really
think they will continue as a division of a Major corporation more concerned
with profit than keeping a 20 odd year old legacy alive..
David Fair
sid...@earthlink.net sidled up to my table and whispered:
> although for the most part they weren't major rule changes.
These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
The 'recipes' could be:
Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
Thanks,
Dave
--
David Fair daf...@bellatlantic.net
"Time flows at a rate of one second per second."
-- Dr. Dimension
Dr Nuncheon
So...releaseing the "complete handbook of fighters and monks" is "glutting
the market with a lot of product"? Somehow I don't think so.
What sort of supplements do you think WOTC *should* be putting out?
Ichabod
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > The "role-playing game companies are businesses and need to make money"
> lesson?
> > The "it is impossible to continue a product line without product material"
> > lesson?
> >
> > I'd say they learned them quite well.
> >
> > What players who think your way need to learn is:
> > The "stop thinking that you have to buy every book released in order to play
> > the game" lesson.
> >
>
> no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is detrimental to
> your profit margins in the long run.
And the other lesson is that not putting any product is even more
detrimental. Frontlist drives the backlist. The trick is to produce
the right ammount of product: enough to keep shelf space, but not
so much as to overwhelm the consumer.
WotC putting out a Fighter/Monk book is not evidence that they
plan on glutting the market.
---
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien
Burger-flipper of the electronic age
Vote for Ralph Nader
Hari the Monk
> > From what I understand, the 'Fighters and Monks' book will have
'recipes',
> > suggestions on how to make a 'Cavalier', or a 'Roman Legionary', or a
> > 'Spanish Conquistador', and so on. This I can fully accept and would
> > welcome.
> >
> > Hari the Monk
> >
>
> Gee thats exactly what the "Complete books of" were
> suggestions on how the system has to be altered to allow X character
types,
Except for the 'Greenwood Ranger' from the Complete Ranger's Handbook. Or
Giant Killers. Or Explorers. Or Feralans. Or Sea Rangers. Or Mountain
Men. Or Pathfinders. And so on.
The complete books of ___ were all about introducing new and sometimes major
rules changes. Bladesingers, anyone? The list is huge.
Hari the Monk
incrdbil
>> Gee thats exactly what the "Complete books of" were
>> suggestions on how the system has to be altered to allow X character types,
>
>These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
>altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
>The 'recipes' could be:
>Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
>these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
>
The supplement will probably have add on, additional rules. The
problem is if it has nothing new, nothign other than "take these
already existign skills to make a character" than anyone could think
of, players will think of it as a waste of money.
I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
Hari the Monk
> These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
> altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
> The 'recipes' could be:
> Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
> these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
Exactly. I've even suggested a few such 'recipes' on this
newsgroups(Cavalier, for example). I'm currently *playing* a Roman
Legionary 'recipe'.
Roman Legionary: Chain shirt(lorica hamata), large wooden shield(scutum),
Longspear, Shortsword(Gladius), Javelins(Pilum), Combat reflexes,
Quickdraw(good feats for whacking multiple oncoming enemies, and dropping
the spear then quickdrawing the shortsword when they close to 5ft).
And, this character is actually very viable. This character would have been
a joke in 2e. (Who ever took Polearms in 2e?)
Hari the Monk
Hari the Monk
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:RALz5.19325$
> Actually the primary rulebook is where most people spend their money, few
people
> buy supplements...
> unless those supplements are so packed with information the system they
are used
> for is less important.
>
> And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to ruin
in
> part?
>
So, a single book(so far) on Fighters AND Monks is 'swelling of supplements
on the market'? Hardly.
Hari the Monk
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> B) A lot of people complained about the CPHB products, here and
elsewhere, so
> how can you justify to them the continuing of the same trend with DND3
No one complained about their existence. People complained that they
were developed by freelancers and they weren't checked to conform with
existing rules. The new books will be much less likely to break the new
3E rules.
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to
ruin in
> part?
WotC isn't producing nearly the flood of competing products TSR did.
Note that there is ONE straight forward fantasy world they're
supporting with new products, not four.
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is
detrimental to
> your profit margins in the long run.
"Glutting?" They're doubling up (at least) the number of classes in
each book. They're producing supplementary material for only one game
world. They're producing eight modules and then stopping.
Where's the glut?
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Gee thats exactly what the "Complete books of" were
> suggestions on how the system has to be altered to allow X character
types,
> although for the mos tpart hey weren't major rule changes.
The good books weren't. But then, the good books were outnumbered by
the bad. Hell, the most popular ones were the ones that caused the most
trouble: Complete Fighter and Complete Elves were trouble between two
covers, no two ways about it.
Beau Yarbrough
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> No you moron.
What a persuasive argument. And if you're going to take shots at my
intellect, learn to punctuate, halfwit.
> A) Do you want DND to continue to be around?
Yep. I believe them continuing to sell material is the way to do it.
Unless this new 3E PHB will burst into flames every 12 months,
requiring me to buy a new one.
> B) If they overwhelm the market the same way the have in the past do
you really
> think they will continue as a division of a Major corporation more
concerned
> with profit than keeping a 20 odd year old legacy alive..
"Overwhelm the market?"
Jesus, kid, you don't have to spend your allowance on every product
they put out. If you like, I'll talk to your parents and they just
won't drop you off at Borders for the day when they go shopping, if you
really have such low impulse control.
bob blanchard
"Beau Yarbrough" <comic...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8qntqt$q9c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <6hIz5.18903$nk3.9...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
> >
> > Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
> >
> > Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
>
> buy all the products?
>
The problem is , the last time they did it you did have to have them even if
you didn't
use them. They were optional at first then more involved. After a while they
were not
optional and were referencing each other.
Now if these new book stay away from optional rules and classes that don't
follow the core rules they will be VERY useful.
I hope WOTC makes a Fighters and Monks book with source material rather than
rules.
bob blanchard
>
> Actually the primary rulebook is where most people spend their money, few
people
> buy supplements...
> unless those supplements are so packed with information the system they
are used
> for is less important.
>
in
> part?
>
Yes and no. The swelling of useless contradictory suplements led TSR to
ruin.
bob blanchard
> These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
> altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
> The 'recipes' could be:
> Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
> these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
>
This would be usefull.
bob blanchard
> I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
> fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
This is exactly what made the complete handbook series
almost universally hated among gamers.
incrdbil
>> Gee thats exactly what the "Complete books of" were
>> suggestions on how the system has to be altered to allow X character types,
The supplement will probably have add on, additional rules. The
problem is if it has nothing new, nothign other than "take these
already existign skills to make a character" than anyone could think
of, players will think of it as a waste of money.
I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
Beau Yarbrough
incr...@flinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote:
> The supplement will probably have add on, additional rules. The
> problem is if it has nothing new, nothign other than "take these
> already existign skills to make a character" than anyone could think
> of, players will think of it as a waste of money.
>
> I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
> fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
You could look the book up in the online catalog and see that, yep, new
feats, new prestige classes and new skills and (IIRC) some new weapons.
Not whole new ways of doing things, not whole changes to the system.
Fixing or ignoring a single feat is child's play.
Beau Yarbrough
"bob blanchard" <bob...@uswest.net> wrote:
> > I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
> > fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
> This is exactly what made the complete handbook series
> almost universally hated among gamers.
New feats made the 2E supplements hated? Huh. I don't remember there
being feats in them.
I DO remember there being kits with powers that didn't conform to any
standards of game balance, new fighting systems and so on.
This is the first I've heard of people complaining about getting new
feats and prestige classes; this newsgroup is full of people building
their own.
People objected to poorly implemented 2E equivalents. WotC has talked a
fair amount about not making those same mistakes.
But in any case, if you don't buy the material and don't allow it in
your campaign, it won't hurt you anyway. TSR could put out all the FR,
Spelljammer, GH, Dark Sun and Birthright material it wanted to, but it
never impacted my game an iota.
Beau Yarbrough
"bob blanchard" <bob...@uswest.net> wrote:
> The problem is , the last time they did it you did have to have them
even if
> you didn't
> use them.
No, you didn't. I never bought more than half of them, and I dumped
half of the ones I bought.
> They were optional at first then more involved. After a while they
> were not
> optional and were referencing each other.
They were always optional. Which were required to run other
material? 'cause I can't think of any supplement that said "you MUST
have this other material" other than the PO series, which still
pretended each supplement stood alone.
> Now if these new book stay away from optional rules and classes that
don't
> follow the core rules they will be VERY useful.
They'll be adding feats, skills and prestige classes, all of which are
in the core books right now.
> I hope WOTC makes a Fighters and Monks book with source material
rather than
> rules.
Define "source material." If it's a description of fighters and monks
of different worlds ("hey, here's a Roman legionnaire!") it'll be
useless to me.
incrdbil
<bob...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>> I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
>> fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
>
>
>This is exactly what made the complete handbook series
>almost universally hated among gamers.
quyite an overexaggeration. the fact that they sold at proves that
staement wrong.
I don't think the start was bad--but they went to far. the Race
guides. The subclass guides.
Not keeping proper balance on the kits hurt. the Dwarven Champion--a
Cleric/Fighter who could specialize? Bladesigners?
the thief swashbuckler who could use a fighters THACO for his weapon?
the initial concept was good--but they over did it, and didnt keep
things uniform.. some guides--such as the wizards and Cleric
guide--were nearly worthless. they could have been one book. The
demihuman guides could have been one.
there was NO need for a Ranger book or a Paladin book..sillyness.
Having supplements isn't evil. You don't have to buy them all--yet
they all should remain balanced. They should revamp the normal game
rules TOO much. ( a unique class skill added isnt a bad thing..but
giving a certain kit abilities of other classes without limitations is
bad)
>
>
incrdbil
>Yes and no. The swelling of useless contradictory suplements led TSR to
>ruin.
>
>
cannibalization]
Beau Yarbrough
incr...@flinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote:
> not to mention the endless new game settings that was simply market
> cannibalization]
IMO, that's the biggest problem. Yes, I have a preference amongst the
four standard fantasy worlds TSR once supported, but I never bought FR,
GH or Krynn material for my games. Many, many, many supplements for
each could be decoupled from their setting and be sold to a wider
audience. Like, for instance, the Adventure Path modules, which I plan
on looking at closely and probably buying at least some of.
Now, would I like it if WotC JUST put out modules like this,
with "customizing this adventure for different worlds" pages in the
back? You betcha. Have a hardback book for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms,
Krynn and Mystara, along with (maybe) a monster book for each and I'd
be a happy camper. But I have to acknowledge that most of those books
would NOT do well, and would be money losers.
So, WotC is doing the right thing from where I'm sitting. (I still wish
they'd license the Mystara stuff to a D20 developer, though ...)
Stephenls
despite the fact that they are currently into their second line of
splatbooks for vampire alone. They have more supplements than anyone
could possibly need, and they release a new edition every 3-5 years.
What's the difference?
First of all, they have only one campaign world to support, and
secondly, the supplements are reasonably well written. The reason TSR
went belly-up wasn't that there were too many supplements, but that
there were too many crappy supplements.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"Life without pain isn't real" -Isamu Dyson, Macross Plus
Beau Yarbrough
incr...@flinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote:
> some guides--such as the wizards and Cleric
> guide--were nearly worthless.
Let me just step in and say that I really liked the Wizard book. More
spells, some interesting kits, and tons upon tons of idea materials. I
deeply hope the new Wizards/Sorcerers book has an expanded familiars
list (with stats), for instance. Hell, I'm even using the silly secret
societies (and they ARE silly) in a wizard-centric campaign late this
year/early next year.
Beau Yarbrough
step...@dccnet.com wrote:
> Sidhain, I direct you to the good people at WWGS. They are doing
well,
> despite the fact that they are currently into their second line of
> splatbooks for vampire alone. They have more supplements than anyone
> could possibly need, and they release a new edition every 3-5 years.
> What's the difference?
>
> First of all, they have only one campaign world to support, and
> secondly, the supplements are reasonably well written. The reason TSR
> went belly-up wasn't that there were too many supplements, but that
> there were too many crappy supplements.
In fact, by the admission of many at WWGS, many of their first wave of
supplements WERE crappy, but they learned from their mistakes.
Dr Nuncheon
Beau Yarbrough <comic...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <YHLz5.19339$nk3.9...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is
>detrimental to
>> your profit margins in the long run.
>
>"Glutting?" They're doubling up (at least) the number of classes in
>each book. They're producing supplementary material for only one game
>world.
I thought they were putting out Greyhawk and Realms stuff? Or is one of
them getting only the one book?
Dilandau Albatou
>What's the problem here? Has someone threatened your life if you don't
>buy all the products?
Yes.
- d -
Any orthographical error above the "d" has
been made with my full knowledge and intent.
Colin Fisher
>>They were optional at first then more
>> involved. After a while they were not
>>optional and were referencing each
>> other.
>They were always optional. Which were
> required to run other material?
I agree with most of what you've said thus far, but you know I'm going
to say, "But there's this one thing....."
Since you've said previously upthread you didn't care much about TSR's
Dark Sun setting, I can see why you wouldn't know that Dark Sun
*required* you to have the Complete Book of Psionics to run a campaign.
Psionics was such a key part of the Dark Sun setting that one really
couldn't run it without heavily modifying it without psionics(you could
in theory build your own psionic rules, but key NPCs of the setting used
TSR's psionic rules to measure their power.)
Of course, the decision to use the Dark Sun setting is
optional.............
Colin Fisher
Dilandau Albatou
>> And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to
>> ruin in part?
>ruin.
*nods*
Many good suplements = Good.
Many bad suplements = Bad.
A few good suplements = Good.
A few bad suplements = Bad.
Marizhavashti Kali
Sidhain wrote:
>
> "Fighters and Monks"
> a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
> Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
>
> Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
You mean that "books aimed at players sell better than books aimed at
GMs?"
You betcha.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Beau Yarbrough
je...@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) wrote:
> I thought they were putting out Greyhawk and Realms stuff? Or is one
of
> them getting only the one book?
Greyhawk's getting the Gazetteer and the RPGA Gazetteer. After that,
you have to join the RPGA.
Beau Yarbrough
co...@webtv.net (Colin Fisher) wrote:
> Since you've said previously upthread you didn't care much about TSR's
> Dark Sun setting, I can see why you wouldn't know that Dark Sun
> *required* you to have the Complete Book of Psionics to run a
campaign.
> Psionics was such a key part of the Dark Sun setting that one really
> couldn't run it without heavily modifying it without psionics(you
could
> in theory build your own psionic rules, but key NPCs of the setting
used
> TSR's psionic rules to measure their power.)
The other choices would have been:
A) No settings that included psionics as a central element of the
setting. I don't like psionics, myself, but many people do, and I
suspect they like seeing a world where psionics aren't an add-on.
B) Reprinting all of the Psionics rules in the DS set. This would drive
up the price of DS needlessly, wouldn't it?
C) No psionics rules at all. This, too, would be a problem for those
who liked psionics.
I think the psionics rules being required for Dark Sun is pretty much
OK.
I was thinking you were going to say that if I wanted to use the
Complete Book of Wizards I had to own The Tome of Magic, the Complete
Ninja's Handbook and several TSR miniatures. THAT would not be OK.
Marizhavashti Kali
Stormhound wrote:
>
> Since when? The impression I had was that they were selling the PHB/DMG/MM
> set as loss leaders, to draw people into the game to buy more supplements and
> stuff. I know there was discussion of this in some places, but heck if I can
> recall the references to give you.
Sounds like someone was blowing smoke. Whatever the PHB is, it's *not* a
loss leader (although I can see why someone would - incorrectly - label
it as such).
> Yeah, I agree. Nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head to make them buy (or
> at least, nobody in the store I frequent...maybe we're just buying enough to not
> merit a Customer Service Death Patrol), so why gripe? Did someone expect them
> to put out a 512-page PHB with all the possible options? Does someone not think
> that there will be any further innovation in the line, as has happened with
> prior editions? Sheesh.
I'm always puzzled by those who are surprised at the existence of
supplements. It's weird.
Dilandau Albatou
>WotC putting out a Fighter/Monk book is not evidence that they
>plan on glutting the market.
Damned right! If they wanted to glut the market they would publish one
fighter handbook and one monk handbook.
Or why not one "Fighter lvl1-10" handbook and one "Fighter lvl11-20"?
Repeat for each class.
That would be flooding the market.
Marizhavashti Kali
Sidhain wrote:
>
> Actually the primary rulebook is where most people spend their money, few people
> buy supplements...
> unless those supplements are so packed with information the system they are used
> for is less important.
Players buy supplements aimed at players. Splatbooks are among the
easiest-to-sell supplements you'll find.
> And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to ruin in
> part?
No.
Marizhavashti Kali
Sidhain wrote:
>
> A) If the game supplements don't make enough money WoTC will disappear from
> Hasbro. The more supplements they make the less chance any supplement they have
> of making a major profit.
> Especially since with D20 OGL, many can write supplements for DND 3.
The question isn't whether the individual supplements make money, but
whether the line makes money. Supplements that cost money (rather than
make it) will probably be discontinued, but I doubt they'll be the
downfall of WotC.
> B) A lot of people complained about the CPHB products, here and elsewhere, so
> how can you justify to them the continuing of the same trend with DND3
People complained about the CPHBs because (as I understand it) they
played merry havoc with character power levels, weren't balanced
internally or with other books and drove player expectations beyond
where some DMs wanted to go. I'm sure there are more reasons, and I'd
like to think that this new series of splatbooks won't hit the same
pitfalls.
Marizhavashti Kali
Sidhain wrote:
>
> no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is detrimental to
> your profit margins in the long run.
Actually, many things killed TSR. The presence of several settings
(Birthright, Planescape, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc) probably
divided the player base and made it harder to sell specific supplements
to more than a subset of the fanbase, but that's not the same thing.
By the logic you offer here, White Wolf should be in bankruptcy by now.
Palladium should be in bankruptcy by now. Steve Jackson Games should be
in bankruptcy by now. Not surprisingly, the games with more supplements
on the shelves happen to be the more successful games. Not because
publishing supplements makes them successful - but it doesn't hurt.
Marizhavashti Kali
David Fair wrote:
>
> These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
> altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
> The 'recipes' could be:
> Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
> these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
I expect the books to add new feats and things for those classes to use
- nothing absolutely vital for any game, but crunchy stuff for players
to use.
Marizhavashti Kali
Sidhain wrote:
>
> A) Do you want DND to continue to be around?
As does WotC.
> B) If they overwhelm the market the same way the have in the past do you really
> think they will continue as a division of a Major corporation more concerned
> with profit than keeping a 20 odd year old legacy alive..
They're not overwhelming the market. But that's not what killed TSR in
any event.
Stephenls
> In fact, by the admission of many at WWGS, many of their first wave of
> supplements WERE crappy, but they learned from their mistakes.
Yes. And what they learned was /not/ "don't make as many supplements",
but rather "make good supplements".
Beau Yarbrough
dilandau-...@another.com (Dilandau Albatou) wrote:
> On 25 sep 2000 comic...@my-deja.com (Beau Yarbrough) wrote:
>
> >What's the problem here? Has someone threatened your life if you
don't
> >buy all the products?
>
> Yes.
In that case, you get to complain about too many supplements and such.
Stephenls
> *nods*
> Many good suplements = Good.
> Many bad suplements = Bad.
> A few good suplements = Good.
> A few bad suplements = Bad.
And
A few good supplements = Good
Many good supplements = Better.
As well as
Craploads of good supplements = good, but not great.
Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda
> In article <39cf9c8a...@usenet.flinthills.com>,
> incr...@flinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote:
>
> > not to mention the endless new game settings that was simply market
> > cannibalization]
>
> IMO, that's the biggest problem. Yes, I have a preference amongst the
> four standard fantasy worlds TSR once supported, but I never bought FR,
> GH or Krynn material for my games. Many, many, many supplements for
> each could be decoupled from their setting and be sold to a wider
> audience. Like, for instance, the Adventure Path modules, which I plan
> on looking at closely and probably buying at least some of.
>
> Now, would I like it if WotC JUST put out modules like this,
> with "customizing this adventure for different worlds" pages in the
> back? You betcha. Have a hardback book for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms,
> Krynn and Mystara, along with (maybe) a monster book for each and I'd
> be a happy camper.
I have to admit, this idea gives me the warm fuzzies. It sounds so
organized. Equality to all the worlds. Except perhaps not for the
Greyhawk setting because it's the core one. But it would make each DM
happy no matter what world he bases his campaign on.
> But I have to acknowledge that most of those books
> would NOT do well, and would be money losers.
Would they really? How many copies would need to be sold of each, do ya
think, in order for them to have been worth it?
> So, WotC is doing the right thing from where I'm sitting. (I still wish
> they'd license the Mystara stuff to a D20 developer, though ...)
Sounds like a winning idea to me. I can see this d20 system thing
bridging the gap between many role-playing games. Kudos to WotC.
(-Brad
PS I admit, that I do not know much about Mystara. But, from what I have
read and such, it seems like a kick ass setting! But, I'm too engrossed
in another setting (Greyhawk) to get into Mystara. I like Krynn and FR as
well, but I won't convert in the campaigns I run. I'll happily play in
any others though :-)
Bryan J. Maloney
<xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Sidhain wrote:
> >
> > no the lesson that glutting the market with a lot of product is
detrimental to
> > your profit margins in the long run.
>
> Actually, many things killed TSR. The presence of several settings
> (Birthright, Planescape, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc) probably
> divided the player base and made it harder to sell specific supplements
> to more than a subset of the fanbase, but that's not the same thing.
>
> By the logic you offer here, White Wolf should be in bankruptcy by now.
> Palladium should be in bankruptcy by now. Steve Jackson Games should be
> in bankruptcy by now. Not surprisingly, the games with more supplements
> on the shelves happen to be the more successful games. Not because
> publishing supplements makes them successful - but it doesn't hurt.
Take a look at the reality of SJG's marketing strategy. With a few
exceptions, all GURPS books are intended to have a limited print run, with
reprints only done in result to unusual demand. Likewise, take a look at
the actual SJG products. Unlike the TSR products, which divided the
market, the SJG products expand the market.
Be it scary stuff, desert stuff, munchkin stuff, super-munchkin stuff, or
ultra-super munchkin stuff, each hunk of TSR's glut took away from the
whole (bland vanilla fantasy). The GURPS worldbooks, on the other hand,
are designed to grab a market area that GURPS doesn't have. There are
redundancies, but you'll notice that the redundant books tend to have
rather short print runs.
Palladium is similar--their products aren't all that redundant with each
other. White Wolf also avoids redundancy, although not as well.
--
For those in the know, potrzebie is truly necessary.
Bruce Baugh
>And isn't this swelling of supplements on the market what led TSR to ruin in
>part?
No, what sank TSR is a) book trade returns and b) putting out
supplements that didn't sell. But a wellc-onstructed line of supplements
supports sales all around.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> bruce...@spiretech.com
Information wants to be free. Entertainment wants to be valuable.
Beau Yarbrough
Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda <tristanknecht@[REMOVE]netzero.net> wrote:
> I have to admit, this idea gives me the warm fuzzies. It sounds so
> organized. Equality to all the worlds. Except perhaps not for the
> Greyhawk setting because it's the core one. But it would make each DM
> happy no matter what world he bases his campaign on.
Yeah, I wish the new "Dungeon" magazine model was the model for the
whole D&D line.
> Would they really? How many copies would need to be sold of each, do
ya
> think, in order for them to have been worth it?
If you want the FR-quality books, with massive hardcovers and lots of
good detail and such like the 3E FR book will be, the price point on
less popular setting would be much, much higher. And isn't the FR book
$30 to begin with? Would many people buy a $40 Krynn book or a $50
Mystara book?
> > So, WotC is doing the right thing from where I'm sitting. (I still
wish
> > they'd license the Mystara stuff to a D20 developer, though ...)
>
> Sounds like a winning idea to me. I can see this d20 system thing
> bridging the gap between many role-playing games. Kudos to WotC.
Yeah, D20 seems to be the spiritual descendant of the old school Judges
Guild. If even a significant fraction of the new material recaptures
the JG magic, it'll be all good. (I'm pondering picking up the
Necromancer Games monster book already ...)
> PS I admit, that I do not know much about Mystara. But, from what I
have
> read and such, it seems like a kick ass setting! But, I'm too
engrossed
> in another setting (Greyhawk) to get into Mystara. I like Krynn and
FR as
> well, but I won't convert in the campaigns I run. I'll happily play
in
> any others though :-)
Well, download the free PDF stuff when it gets posted (it's the last
setting, IIRC, and will be in two chunks: 2E Mystara and OD&D
materials). I'd steal liberally from it if I were you. Much of the
Mystara stuff could be ported over to Oerth. You could even use the
Glantri stuff to come up with a really wonky varient on the Vale of the
Mage.
David Fair
from incr...@flinthills.com sidled up to my table and whispered:
>> These 'recipes' don't have to be suggestions on how the system has to be
>> altered; That's negative thinking. Maybe WotC did learn something.
>> The 'recipes' could be:
>> Cavalier: Take these skills, and these feats, add these feats later, add
>> these skills later. Mix well and bake for three levels.
>>
> The supplement will probably have add on, additional rules. The
> problem is if it has nothing new, nothign other than "take these
> already existign skills to make a character" than anyone could think
> of, players will think of it as a waste of money.
>
> I see more advanced combat options, rules for customizing
> fighter/maonk classes perhaps, new feats....just a hunch.
Well, I did not mean to imply that it would only reference existing Feats
and Skills. I would imagine that Skills and Feats (and, in other books in
the series, Domains and Spells) would be expanded upon. I think that is a
good thing, as the current choices are far from exhaustive.
I am not sure what you mean by "more advanced combat options".
Thanks,
Dave
--
David Fair daf...@bellatlantic.net
Q: How many Microsoft programmers does it take to write really good
software?
A: More.
David Fair
Yarbrough from comic...@my-deja.com sidled up to my table and whispered:
> Yep. I believe them continuing to sell material is the way to do it.
> Unless this new 3E PHB will burst into flames every 12 months,
> requiring me to buy a new one.
Now *that's* marketing!
Thanks,
Dave
--
David Fair daf...@bellatlantic.net
"Time flows at a rate of one second per second."
-- Dr. Dimension
Beau Yarbrough
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> White Wolf also avoids redundancy, although not as well.
And the anguished cries of Justin Achilli notwithstanding, many people
use supplements from across the line in their chronicles, especially
Vampire, Mage and Werewolf ones.
The D&D equivalent would be having whole lines of Greyhawk wizard,
fighter and thief materials (supplements, monsters, adventures) and
Greyhawk groups using, say, one of the thieves guild supplements in
their campaign, even though it's a mixed group, not a purely thief one.
Beau Yarbrough
> > In fact, by the admission of many at WWGS, many of their first wave
of
> > supplements WERE crappy, but they learned from their mistakes.
> Yes. And what they learned was /not/ "don't make as many
supplements",
> but rather "make good supplements".
'xactly.
Henry Link
"Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OLLz5.19347$nk3.9...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> A) Do you want DND to continue to be around?
>
you really
> think they will continue as a division of a Major corporation more
concerned
> with profit than keeping a 20 odd year old legacy alive..
Sidhain, I have a question - what monthly rate for product release
would you personally consider to be "just right?"
2 products a month? 1? 1 product every 6 months?
Just interested.
-Henry
David Fair
Yarbrough from comic...@my-deja.com sidled up to my table and whispered:
>> I thought they were putting out Greyhawk and Realms stuff? Or is one of them
>> getting only the one book?
>
> Greyhawk's getting the Gazetteer and the RPGA Gazetteer. After that,
> you have to join the RPGA.
Actually the FR 3e Book is due out in June 2001. Here is some info from the
FR mail list:
> The new Forgotten Realms campaign setting, originally scheduled for release in
> April 2001, will now release in June 2001. This new release date allows
> Wizards of the Coast to maintain the high-quality standards to which the fans
> of the Forgotten Realms campaign have become accustomed.
>
> For more information, check out the Forgotten Realms campaign setting's
> online product page.
>
> http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?wtc11836
Thanks,
Dave
--
David Fair daf...@bellatlantic.net
"Macintosh - we might not get everything right, but at least we knew the
century was going to end." --Douglas Adams
Henry Link
news:8qo5t4$4g2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The good books weren't. But then, the good books were outnumbered by
> the bad. Hell, the most popular ones were the ones that caused the
most
> trouble: Complete Fighter and Complete Elves were trouble between
two
> covers, no two ways about it.
Actually, I thought the Complete Fighter's Book was quite useful -
especially since the core 2E fighters were quite inferior to the rest
of the classes, including paladins and rangers.
I admit that in hindsight several of their concepts (broad groups,
style specializations, etc.) were implemented badly, but the Kits in
all were not that bad for the game. (IMO the race books was when it
started to unravel)
Fighters needed a boost compared to the core classes, but when they
started to break the rules set up by previous "splatbooks" it was a
harbinger of doom, so to speak. (Does anyone here remember that
multiclassed fighters weren't even supposed to be allowed to take
kits???)
-Henry
Beau Yarbrough
David Fair <daf...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> Actually the FR 3e Book is due out in June 2001. Here is some info
from the
> FR mail list:
Er, yes, I know. And then it's getting a slew of other material, as
opposed to GH, which will get 1.5 supplements, and then won't get
anything more, as per the original query.
Henry Link
> They were always optional. Which were required to run other
> material? 'cause I can't think of any supplement that said "you MUST
> have this other material" other than the PO series, which still
> pretended each supplement stood alone.
I am not in front of my collection, but I can tell you that, even not
including Dark Sun, which cannot be run as intended without the
Psionics handbook, there were plenty of the various handbooks and
modules that referred you to other handbooks, and assumed you had
them, not giving you the complete rules for that which they ASSUMED
you had access to. After the first wave of products like this (about
1993, I recall) I pretty much quit buying most TSR products
altogether.
-Henry
--
"Let's see now - Ho, Ha, Guard, Turn, Parry, Dodge, Spin, Ha, Thrust
<THWAK!> - Got it!"
Daffy Duck was a walking, breathing Attack of Opportunity.
bob blanchard
> I think the psionics rules being required for Dark Sun is pretty much
> OK.
>
OK or not, you still HAVE to own a OPTIONAL book to play in
the champaign setting as it is written.
bob blanchard
> Fighters needed a boost compared to the core classes, but when they
> started to break the rules set up by previous "splatbooks" it was a
> harbinger of doom, so to speak. (Does anyone here remember that
> multiclassed fighters weren't even supposed to be allowed to take
> kits???)
>
Yes, only single classed fighter's can specialize and only in one weapon,
and mutli-cassed PC's couldn't have kits.
Neither lasted long.
Dilandau Albatou
>> Greyhawk's getting the Gazetteer and the RPGA Gazetteer. After that,
>> you have to join the RPGA.
>
>the FR mail list:
He was talking about GH, not FR.
Beau Yarbrough
"Henry Link" <hl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I am not in front of my collection, but I can tell you that, even not
> including Dark Sun, which cannot be run as intended without the
> Psionics handbook, there were plenty of the various handbooks and
> modules that referred you to other handbooks, and assumed you had
> them, not giving you the complete rules for that which they ASSUMED
> you had access to. After the first wave of products like this (about
> 1993, I recall) I pretty much quit buying most TSR products
> altogether.
Huh. I never encountered that although I did avoid "Gates of Firestorm
Peak" (which was apparently excellent) because it was hyped as using
the PO rules.
incrdbil
>I am not sure what you mean by "more advanced combat options".
a duelling system (reference 2E's Combat and tactics PO book)
An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
other modifiers.
A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
A more detail unarmed combat/wrestling/martial arts system.
Expanded rules dealign with mounted combat, aeriel combat beyond what
exists. Called shot rules, hit locations, reworking of the critical
hit system....
Dilandau Albatou
>I am not in front of my collection, but I can tell you that, even not
>including Dark Sun, which cannot be run as intended without the
>Psionics handbook, there were plenty of the various handbooks and
>modules that referred you to other handbooks, and assumed you had
>them, not giving you the complete rules for that which they ASSUMED
>you had access to.
And we have the other way around too: Has anyone ever seen a reference to a
Kit outside a Complete Handbook?
Beau Yarbrough
incr...@flinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:32:15 GMT, David Fair <daf...@bellatlantic.net>
> a duelling system (reference 2E's Combat and tactics PO book)
>
> An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
> other modifiers.
>
> A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
> basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
>
> A more detail unarmed combat/wrestling/martial arts system.
>
> Expanded rules dealign with mounted combat, aeriel combat beyond what
> exists. Called shot rules, hit locations, reworking of the critical
> hit system....
I would scream if any of that shows up in the book and do worse to
players who want to use it.
Beau Yarbrough
"bob blanchard" <bob...@uswest.net> wrote:
Thank you, Mr. Dogmatic. Please reread my entire post on the subject
and tell me which alternative you'd prefer. A no-psionics DS? A DS book
that included all the psionics rules and thus carried a higher price
tag?
David Fair
Yarbrough from comic...@my-deja.com sidled up to my table and whispered:
>> Actually the FR 3e Book is due out in June 2001. Here is some info from the
>> FR mail list:
>
> Er, yes, I know. And then it's getting a slew of other material, as
> opposed to GH, which will get 1.5 supplements, and then won't get
> anything more, as per the original query.
Sorry, I read the response wrong. My mistake.
Thanks,
Dave
--
David Fair daf...@bellatlantic.net
Stormhound
> A) If the game supplements don't make enough money WoTC will disappear from
> Hasbro. The more supplements they make the less chance any supplement they have
> of making a major profit.
> Especially since with D20 OGL, many can write supplements for DND 3.
That would be more true if they dumped all the supplements out in one big
release pile, but less so when they put them out one a month. People will pick and
choose from a pile, but they'll hang on a release schedule much more eagerly to get
the newest toy.
> B) A lot of people complained about the CPHB products, here and elsewhere, so
> how can you justify to them the continuing of the same trend with DND3
Well, I don't *have* to justify it, that's WotC's job. Nevertheless, I'd like
to point out that more of the comments you see are going to be negative, because
it's the people who are unhappy who tend to be motivated to write. Folks who're
comfy and happy with their purchase mostly don't speak up about it, except for an
especially vocal few who champion something. Just go through the threads here, if
you don't believe me. Take that, balance it against the sales figures...
If the CPHB products sold well, it's pretty hard to argue *against* WotC
continuing the trend, from a business standpoint. What has worked before will work
again, until proven otherwise.
--
Stormhound
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm
Stormhound
> Yep. I believe them continuing to sell material is the way to do it.
> Unless this new 3E PHB will burst into flames every 12 months,
> requiring me to buy a new one.
Hey, what're these runes inside the back cov...YEEAAARRRRGGHHH!
--
Crispyhound
Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda
> In article <8qobn2$11v2dt$1...@fido.engr.sgi.com>,
> Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda <tristanknecht@[REMOVE]netzero.net> wrote:
>
> > Would they really? How many copies would need to be sold of each, do
> ya
> > think, in order for them to have been worth it?
>
> If you want the FR-quality books, with massive hardcovers and lots of
> good detail and such like the 3E FR book will be, the price point on
> less popular setting would be much, much higher. And isn't the FR book
> $30 to begin with?
I read on the WotC page that it will be priced at $39.95!
> Would many people buy a $40 Krynn book or a $50
> Mystara book?
Actually, the sick pup that I am, I would. But, how many other sick pups
are there out there? If you love the campaign setting, and there isn't
much to buy anyway, I'd see them selling at a $50 price point.
> > PS I admit, that I do not know much about Mystara. But, from what I
> have
> > read and such, it seems like a kick ass setting! But, I'm too
> engrossed
> > in another setting (Greyhawk) to get into Mystara. I like Krynn and
> FR as
> > well, but I won't convert in the campaigns I run. I'll happily play
> in
> > any others though :-)
>
> Well, download the free PDF stuff when it gets posted (it's the last
> setting, IIRC, and will be in two chunks: 2E Mystara and OD&D
> materials).
What's OD&D? Old Dungeons & Dragons?
> I'd steal liberally from it if I were you. Much of the
> Mystara stuff could be ported over to Oerth. You could even use the
> Glantri stuff to come up with a really wonky varient on the Vale of the
> Mage.
Right on. To tell ya the truth, I get a better feeling about Mystara than
I do FR. I can't quite explain it. Maybe it's because I think that FR is
just too over powered of a world for my tastes.
(-Brad
Aaron F. Bourque
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:32:15 GMT, David Fair <daf...@bellatlantic.net>
>
>>I am not sure what you mean by "more advanced combat options"
>An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
>other modifiers.
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
>basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
Why? It's What They Do.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Being grown up all the time is only a sign of immaturity.
Come on, people! Grow up! Act stupid!
Andrew Tellez
bob blanchard wrote:
>
> > I think the psionics rules being required for Dark Sun is pretty much
> > OK.
> >
>
> OK or not, you still HAVE to own a OPTIONAL book to play in
> the champaign setting as it is written.
Yeah, so? The setting is optional as well.
incrdbil
>>An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
>>other modifiers.
>
>NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes--the current system is too simplistic. might seem ok as everyone
gets familiar witht he game, but soon reveals itself as somethign
needing a fix.
>
>>A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
>>basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
>
>Why? It's What They Do.
So, my poor peasant kid who learned to fight from the old retired
warrior is skilled with every form of polearm, bow, axe, sword.....na.
Another simplification that looks good only as long as you are playing
cookie cutter fighters.
>
incrdbil
>I am not sure what you mean by "more advanced combat options".
a duelling system (reference 2E's Combat and tactics PO book)
An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
other modifiers.
A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
A more detail unarmed combat/wrestling/martial arts system.
Beau Yarbrough
Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda <tristanknecht@[REMOVE]netzero.net> wrote:
> > Well, download the free PDF stuff when it gets posted (it's the last
> > setting, IIRC, and will be in two chunks: 2E Mystara and OD&D
> > materials).
>
> What's OD&D? Old Dungeons & Dragons?
Yep. The boxed set stuff.
> Right on. To tell ya the truth, I get a better feeling about Mystara
than
> I do FR. I can't quite explain it. Maybe it's because I think that
FR is
> just too over powered of a world for my tastes.
Well, that's not to say that there isn't a lot of magic around in
Mystara. Glantri alone could give the entirety of Toril a run for its
money, based on the number of high level wizards. And a fair amount has
trickled down to the public: Everyone knows that magic is real and
likely understands at least the basics of arcane spell use (they'd
recognize if someone was casting a spell, for instance). And one nation
recently sank under the waves -- of course, it was the most "over-
powered" nation, as it had flying machines and such.
For the most part, though, it's pretty baseline D&D stuff. It's just
the wizard-run nations you have to watch out for.
incrdbil
>>An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds, among
>>other modifiers.
>
yes--the current system is too simplistic. might seem ok as everyone
gets familiar witht he game, but soon reveals itself as somethign
needing a fix.
>
>>A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
>>basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
>
Aaron F. Bourque
>>>An expanded initiative system, that brings back weapons speeds,
>>>among other modifiers.
>>
>>NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>yes--the current system is too simplistic. might seem ok as everyone
>gets familiar witht he game, but soon reveals itself as somethign
>needing a fix.
But weapons speeds don't work. Use better reach rules if you *need* a
kludge.
>>>A revamping of the fighters proficiencies. It's ludicrous that your
>>>basic starting fighter is proficient with every single martial weapon.
>>
>>Why? It's What They Do.
>
>So, my poor peasant kid who learned to fight from the old retired
>warrior is skilled with every form of polearm, bow, axe, sword.....na.
>Another simplification that looks good only as long as you are playing
>cookie cutter fighters.
If he's a fighter, sure. If he's a commoner, then no.
Brad ~Tristan~ Daeda
> In article <B5F530F3.27544%daf...@bellatlantic.net>,
> David Fair <daf...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
> > Actually the FR 3e Book is due out in June 2001. Here is some info
> from the
> > FR mail list:
>
> Er, yes, I know. And then it's getting a slew of other material, as
> opposed to GH, which will get 1.5 supplements, and then won't get
> anything more, as per the original query.
::snort:: Way to treat your core world! Yeah, yeah, sure RPGA will be
producing material. But I like supplements to come out of the same
place. I really don't want to join RPGA. Now I feel like I have to in
order to get Greyhawk material :-(
(-Brad
Marizhavashti Kali
Dr Nuncheon wrote:
>
> I thought they were putting out Greyhawk and Realms stuff? Or is one of
> them getting only the one book?
Greyhawk gets the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in November. Forgotten
Realms gets the 320-page book in June (date was pushed back). Forgotten
Realms will get more support from WotC. Greyhawk will get more support
from the RPGA.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Scott Taylor
Henry Link <hl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I am not in front of my collection, but I can tell you that, even not
> including Dark Sun, which cannot be run as intended without the
> Psionics handbook, there were plenty of the various handbooks and
> modules that referred you to other handbooks, and assumed you had
> them, not giving you the complete rules for that which they ASSUMED
> 1993, I recall) I pretty much quit buying most TSR products
> altogether.
What.the.fuck.ever.
If they *had* continuously reprinted all of that information every
single time, they would have been bitched to high heaven for having
reprinted information from _The Complete Book of Foo_ in _The Complete
Book of Bar_, when *everyone* who has the game will, *of course* have
the Foo book, because Foo are an integral part of the game.
Can't have it both ways, pissant.
--
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel
Who tolerates fools not at all...
Stephenls
> Hey, what're these runes inside the back cov...YEEAAARRRRGGHHH!
Safety note to everyone: Don't take the CD holder off the back cover.
It's got time-delayed Explosive Runes under it!
--
Stephenls
Geek
"Life without pain isn't real" -Isamu Dyson, Macross Plus
Lizard
> So, my poor peasant kid who learned to fight from the old retired
> warrior is skilled with every form of polearm, bow, axe, sword.....na
Indeed. If that's who he learend from, he'd be a Warrior, not a Fighter.
A fighter begins knowing how to use a smegload of weapons. While you can
voluntarily trade back proficiencies (see the example of the fighter who
was a bodyguard for the thieves guild), it's also wise to define your
characters history based on the skills he has.
Barry Smith
> I've got no problem at all with WotC releasing new supplements, so long as
> they don't break the rules already established by the core rule books. That
> was the main thing that I hated about the 'Complete ___ Handbooks'. They
> had outright rules changes that couldn't be found anywhere else.
I never thought the Handbooks used rules that I either could have
thought up myself, or implemented into my campaign. New rules, classes,
and kits are the one thing I liked the most about the Complete X series.
If the base mechanics of the kit didn't appeal to me, I could always
change it to my liking, but the overall *concept* of the kits is what I
like the most. Consistency in rules applications only becomes
inconsistent and full of anomalies when only the DM knows about the
changes. If everyone is one the same page with how X kit works or Y rule
is applied, where's the heartburn?
> From what I understand, the 'Fighters and Monks' book will have 'recipes',
> suggestions on how to make a 'Cavalier', or a 'Roman Legionary', or a
> 'Spanish Conquistador', and so on. This I can fully accept and would
> welcome.
As the previous Handbooks allowed. Perhaps not specifically, but a good
part of character creation should still be in the hands of the players
IMO. Either edition will in the future and does in the present provide
character models for which players can make interesting and well-defined
PCs. I don't see the correlation where 3e has improved anything in
regards to Handbook kits or character concepts. All the newfangled
classes and options aren't that new to me, which is why I'll be content
with the existing handbooks. I doubt they can come up with too many more
variables on classes and character options than I've seen over the past
20+ years. If they do, bravo.
--
Long live 2e.
Barry Smith
> Except for the 'Greenwood Ranger' from the Complete Ranger's Handbook. Or
> Giant Killers. Or Explorers. Or Feralans. Or Sea Rangers. Or Mountain
> Men. Or Pathfinders. And so on.
>
> The complete books of ___ were all about introducing new and sometimes major
> rules changes. Bladesingers, anyone? The list is huge.
True, but the changes were only options. They weren't required to be set
in stone, where the DM could never alter those kits to each DM's liking.
I don't use the Greenwood Ranger, for example, because I don't like the
attack ratio they gave it. I could easily (and may one day) alter the
GR's attack ratios down to a realistic level and then allow the kit to
be played by my players. Until then, it's off limits.
--
Long live 2e.
Steve Miller
<< This is exactly what made the complete handbook series
almost universally hated among gamers.>>
Only gamers who are unable to pick and choose... or possibly even think for
themselves.
Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff
--
Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs
'Oh, Shit,' Says Humanity
http://www.theonion.com/onion3630/dolphins_evolve_thumbs.html
Douglas Bailey
> "Fighters and Monks"
> a future release of WOTC in First quarter 2001.
>
> Can we say "Complete Fighter's Handbook"
> Yet again they have not learned their lesson with products.
I'm going to wait and see what's in the book before I leap to judgment.
If it's all poorly-balanced new rules and systems -- à la the CFH -- then
I'll probably pass on the other class books. If, on the other hand, the
rumours are correct that the new book is primarily about character
information (background, motivation, personality, goals), I'll be very
pleased.
doug
--
--------------douglas bailey (trys...@ne.mediaone.net)--------------
this week dragged past me so slowly; the days fell on their knees...
--david bowie