Ethics of Clone Spell
ArtWarrior
As a Wizard I've recently had some serious moral and ethical dilemma's
aroused by the ethical considerations of the Clone spell. I've recently
gained the ability to cast 8th Level spells <clap!clap!clap!> and have
happened upon the -Clone- spell in a recently retrieved rivals spell
book.
My question is: what are the moral and ethical considerations behind
this spell. Is it all right to make a clone of yourself and store it in
case of an emergency? Is it all right to clone my favorite dog bessie?
Some would say yes. However, should I clone my favorite henchman Talis
the fighter, conduct a little selective memory alteration to prevent him
from killing "himself", repeat the process over and over again until
finally I have an army of high level fighter-slaves at my disposal? Some
would say this is very Manshoonian.
Can you help? Do you have have serious questions concerning this
growing debate about cloning magic?
The Wizard Atropos
Oswald the Slayer
Hmmm. Imigination is influenced by real life events.
Thoughts so.
Oswald the Slayer
--
He who laughs last didn't get the joke.
bob blanchard
ArtWarrior <davi...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in article
<331F2F...@pilot.msu.edu>...
> As a Wizard I've recently had some serious moral and ethical dilemma's
> aroused by the ethical considerations of the Clone spell. I've recently
> gained the ability to cast 8th Level spells <clap!clap!clap!> and have
> happened upon the -Clone- spell in a recently retrieved rivals spell
> book.
>
> My question is: what are the moral and ethical considerations behind
> this spell. Is it all right to make a clone of yourself and store it in
> case of an emergency? Is it all right to clone my favorite dog bessie?
> Some would say yes. However, should I clone my favorite henchman Talis
> the fighter, conduct a little selective memory alteration to prevent him
> from killing "himself", repeat the process over and over again until
> finally I have an army of high level fighter-slaves at my disposal? Some
> would say this is very Manshoonian.
>
Sure, why not
Phase
I may have this wrong, as it is from memory... but read
_Four Lords of the Diamond_, by Chalker.
I just loved how the person woke up, and pitied the "clones"
he just made, only to realize he was one of them, and not
the original. He made 4 clones, and each one of them started
off with just that thought. Amazing how they became different
individuals however.
--
PHASEFX @ VM.SC.EDU - http://www.cs.sc.edu/~jason-e
"Part of me says 'Chase her', Part of me says it wouldn't work."
DuaneVP
>> My question is: what are the moral and ethical considerations behind
this spell.<<
[Note: the following opinions apply only to cloning within AD&D - not
as applied to real life cloning. The two are ENTIERELY different subjects
IMO.]
I'd say that the only moral and ethical questions arise when you are
creating a clone of a still-living person. The clone IS for all intents
and purposes the same person and there is a "built-in" ethics alarm in
that having two of the very same individual makes each want to kill the
other for not being the "real" person. If they are unable to accomplish
the death of the other at LEAST one of them will go insane and possibly
both. This is not a very nice thing to inflict on a person to say the
least.
>> Is it all right to make a clone of yourself and store it in
case of an emergency?<<
Not unless you wish to drive yourself or your clone utterly insane - a
rather foolish undertaking. It IS perfectly reasonable to have a sample
of your flesh properly stored so that a clone could be made of you should
you die and be beyond the ability of a Raise Dead spell to fix, or your
body were utterly destroyed, or the like. So long as you don't have two
of you at the same time all will be fine. It has been a common and
standard procedure in every PC party I have been in which has had access
to Cloning to have samples stored away on a regular basis for just such
emergencies.
>> Is it all right to clone my favorite dog bessie?<<
I believe the same rules about killing your double and insanity would
still apply.
>>However, should I clone my favorite henchman Talis
the fighter, conduct a little selective memory alteration to prevent him
from killing "himself", repeat the process over and over again until
finally I have an army of high level fighter-slaves at my disposal?<<
Any reasonable DM would probably rule that making that selective
memory alteration is difficult at best if not impossible to prevent just
such an abuse of the spell.
>> Some would say this is very Manshoonian.<<
Me for one. If you did find a way to accomplish that little trick
you'd be treading very thin moral and ethical ice and your alignment had
better reflect that.
>>Can you help? Do you have have serious questions concerning this
growing debate about cloning magic?<<
Well, it should be apparant with only a little bit of pondering that
Cloning is an excellent way to get around the Resurrection roll needed for
Raise Dead or Resurrection spells. That is, if you should ever fail a
Resurrection roll your characters clone can simply be created and thus you
never _really_ have to worry about losing a character due to a failed RR%
roll. To eliminate this some campaigns I have played in have instituted a
house rule that making a clone from a clone is impossible. This makes
cloning a last-ditch and strictly one-shot thing when the character is
unfortunate enough to fail his RR%.
The spell description specifically states that the DM should institute
any restricitions he feels are necessary at least as regards the flesh
samples that are needed to create a clone. So, if he didn't want to make
an outright limit of "one clone to a customer" or flatly refuse to allow
cloned armies, a DM could still make it difficult enough to obtain or to
keep samples that are fresh and usable.
Duane VanderPol
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers" - Thomas Watson, IBM Chairman, 1943
ThresholdMURPE
In article <331F2F...@pilot.msu.edu>, ArtWarrior <davi...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>As a Wizard I've recently had some serious moral and ethical dilemma's
>aroused by the ethical considerations of the Clone spell. I've recently
>gained the ability to cast 8th Level spells <clap!clap!clap!> and have
>happened upon the -Clone- spell in a recently retrieved rivals spell
>book.
Wheeee! We have the moral dillemas of mind control spells in another thread,
and now cloning! Not to mention the current events ramifications! My, this is
becoming quite a sagacious newsgroup!
Imho, the ethical dilemmas of clone are probably dwarfed by the ethical
dilemms of fireballing innocents that happened to be too close to one's
intended victim. =)
-Aristotle@ThresholdMURPE
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Alhaard
ArtWarrior wrote:
>
> As a Wizard I've recently had some serious moral and ethical dilemma's
> aroused by the ethical considerations of the Clone spell. I've recently
> gained the ability to cast 8th Level spells <clap!clap!clap!> and have
> happened upon the -Clone- spell in a recently retrieved rivals spell
> book.
>
> case of an emergency? Is it all right to clone my favorite dog bessie?
> Some would say yes. However, should I clone my favorite henchman Talis
> the fighter, conduct a little selective memory alteration to prevent him
> from killing "himself", repeat the process over and over again until
> would say this is very Manshoonian.
>
> growing debate about cloning magic?
>
This i9s a n interesting dilemma, as to the cloning of henchmen, I
suggest Dune, particularly the ones with Sten Duncan, the poor sod keeps
getitng brought back whether he wants it or not
--
Alhaard ap Dirae Alhasheen
dun...@raleigh.ibm.com
All opinions are the hamster's
The truth is a blade of two edges
Alhaard
Matt Randall
Cloning can be a pretty effective way of "backing up your
character" in a D&D game. The most simple way to get around the
inconvenience of going insane with your clone is to start the cloning
process, and before it is finished, cast a temporal stasis on the
clone. Advise your party members (or next of kin) to dispel magic the
clone in the event that you are annihilated beyond any recoverable
means, or your body is unretrievable.
The same can be done with other party members, and even
familiars. If you character's alignment is Lawful Good, you might
want to check with your DM to see how the gods view cloning and
whether such an action would cause an alignment shift. Cloning, after
all, is against the natural scheme of things (then again, so is
ressurection and meteor swarm ;-)
Matt Randall
verkuilen john v
mran...@sky.net (Matt Randall) writes:
> Cloning can be a pretty effective way of "backing up your
>character" in a D&D game. The most simple way to get around the
>inconvenience of going insane with your clone is to start the cloning
>process, and before it is finished, cast a temporal stasis on the
>clone. Advise your party members (or next of kin) to dispel magic the
>clone in the event that you are annihilated beyond any recoverable
>means, or your body is unretrievable.
Except that (a) TS is a higher level spell and (b) Dispel Magic (probably
kind of difficult given that you're at least 18th level) will take
down both the Temporal Stasis AND the Clone (read the spell description). If
the clone isn't yet matured, you've got a dead pile of flesh, not a Clone
fresh out of hibernation. It's hard to say whether TS can "Ctrl-Z" on Clone,
which you can "fg" later, as well, but I think a strict reading of the rules
would say no.
Also, the Clone would get further and further out of date, but this is less
of a problem than the mechanics of the Dispel Magic.
Ray Delgado
Matt Randall wrote:
>
> Cloning can be a pretty effective way of "backing up your
> character" in a D&D game. The most simple way to get around the
> inconvenience of going insane with your clone is to start the cloning
> process, and before it is finished, cast a temporal stasis on the
> clone. Advise your party members (or next of kin) to dispel magic the
> clone in the event that you are annihilated beyond any recoverable
> means, or your body is unretrievable.
>
> familiars. If you character's alignment is Lawful Good, you might
> want to check with your DM to see how the gods view cloning and
> whether such an action would cause an alignment shift. Cloning, after
> all, is against the natural scheme of things (then again, so is
> ressurection and meteor swarm ;-)
The moral and ethical questions concerning cloning go beyond the simple
" its against the
scheme of things " thinking. Once the spell is cast, the clone is a
living breathing entity. It has a mind, intellect, thoughts, feelings
and, depending on your game, either a soul or spirit. Its an extention
of the original so intimitly connected that it goes beyond the
mother-child bond. Stop thinking of it in game terms and think about the
feelings of those involved. The creature cloned now has a sibling closer
to it than a brother, sister or twin. Additionally, the creator of the
clone must care, nuture and raise it for the 2-8 months until it
matures. This quickly develops into a parental role. Now imagine the
unfeeling, uncaring, callus individual who does this time and again,
creating duplicate after duplicate, brain washing each into forgetting
about the other's existence. Or someone tries to cast a temporal statis
spell on this sibling/child, effectively stopping its development and
sentencing it to non-existance. It amounts to torture of an unsuspecting
and innocent child for personnal gain. No good person, and few neutrals,
could abide the thought of this helpless, unknowing innocent held so
unfairly and unjustly. If you think of this as conceiving and raising a
child, and not as a game tool to make a backup character, then you can
appreciate the horrific implications of cloning, and the very real issue
of possible shifts to very evil alignments.
raydium
" No man is an island. I've met a few penninsulas, several points, a
couple of capes, and once knew a fellow who was an isthmus, but no
islands. "
Xira
In article <332164...@castle.net>, ray...@castle.net says...
>
>Matt Randall wrote:
>>
>> Cloning can be a pretty effective way of "backing up your
>> character" in a D&D game. The most simple way to get around the
>> inconvenience of going insane with your clone is to start the cloning
>> process, and before it is finished, cast a temporal stasis on the
>> clone. Advise your party members (or next of kin) to dispel magic the
>> clone in the event that you are annihilated beyond any recoverable
>> means, or your body is unretrievable.
simple
>" its against the
>scheme of things " thinking. Once the spell is cast, the clone is a
>living breathing entity. It has a mind, intellect, thoughts, feelings
>and, depending on your game, either a soul or spirit. Its an extention
>of the original so intimitly connected that it goes beyond the
>mother-child bond. Stop thinking of it in game terms and think about the
>feelings of those involved. The creature cloned now has a sibling closer
>to it than a brother, sister or twin. Additionally, the creator of the
>clone must care, nuture and raise it for the 2-8 months until it
>matures. This quickly develops into a parental role. Now imagine the
>unfeeling, uncaring, callus individual who does this time and again,
>creating duplicate after duplicate, brain washing each into forgetting
>about the other's existence. Or someone tries to cast a temporal statis
>spell on this sibling/child, effectively stopping its development and
>sentencing it to non-existance. It amounts to torture of an unsuspecting
>and innocent child for personnal gain. No good person, and few neutrals,
>could abide the thought of this helpless, unknowing innocent held so
>unfairly and unjustly. If you think of this as conceiving and raising a
>child, and not as a game tool to make a backup character, then you can
>appreciate the horrific implications of cloning, and the very real issue
>of possible shifts to very evil alignments.
Ahhh..you make it sound so SWEET.
I personally don't give a crap weather or not Im killing a child if i were to
have an abortion, it's better to kill them now than to let them live in this
hell we call earth.
Also, the spell stats that they find the other's existance intolerable, so the
nicest thing to DO is to brainwash it.
Kenneth Doman
> > My question is: what are the moral and ethical considerations behind
> > this spell. Is it all right to make a clone of yourself and store it in
> > case of an emergency? Is it all right to clone my favorite dog bessie?
> > Some would say yes. However, should I clone my favorite henchman Talis
> > the fighter, conduct a little selective memory alteration to prevent him
> > from killing "himself", repeat the process over and over again until
> > finally I have an army of high level fighter-slaves at my disposal? Some
> > would say this is very Manshoonian.
I think that it would be almost worthless to clone yourself. If you do
well
enough to advance to highter levels, then that guy will be worthless.
And you
don't want to keep updating your character all the time. I would
concider that
a complete waste of good magic potential. But I do like the idea of
cloning
your dog. It's kinda cute. I was wondering, though, does the cloning
spell
make an instantanious clone the same age and everything as the
original? Or
is there a time frame involved where the clone must mature to
adulthood. Then
I would find using some of it a bit slow, like making a hundred
henchmen.
For great fun, try making clones of clones of clones until you get one
of
extremely poor quality, like a mage with 5 INT or something. That would
be fun
to deal with.
Oh well, just thought I would put my two cents in.
--Kenneth Doman
--
This won't hurt ________________________| |
a bit. /| ( |_______|
-----==========| | ( |_______|
\|____|____|____|(___|____| |
| |
Ray Delgado
> >clone must care, nuture and raise it for the 2-8 months until it
> >matures. This quickly develops into a parental role. Now imagine the
> >unfeeling, uncaring, callus individual who does this time and again,
> >creating duplicate after duplicate, brain washing each into forgetting
> >about the other's existence. Or someone tries to cast a temporal statis
> >spell on this sibling/child, effectively stopping its development and
> >sentencing it to non-existance. It amounts to torture of an unsuspecting
> >and innocent child for personnal gain. No good person, and few neutrals,
> >could abide the thought of this helpless, unknowing innocent held so
> >unfairly and unjustly. If you think of this as conceiving and raising a
> >child, and not as a game tool to make a backup character, then you can
> >appreciate the horrific implications of cloning, and the very real issue
> >of possible shifts to very evil alignments.
>
> Ahhh..you make it sound so SWEET.
> I personally don't give a crap weather or not Im killing a child if i were to
> have an abortion, it's better to kill them now than to let them live in this
> hell we call earth.
We were discussing a fantasy game in which someone kept cloning humans
or casting
temporal status on undeveloped clones. Why the sudden hostility ? Where
did the abortion issue come in?
And if you could make it in life, why decide someone else can't? I'm
pro-choice, and your body is your
own, but I don't agree with your reasoning. Now, let's try and separate
fantasy from reality.
Back to my original post - We are talking about a role-playing game. If
you intend to actually
role-play then you must consider the morality of the issue, the feelings
of those who's life you are
toying with and the character you are playing. If you are not
role-playing, then sure, the system
allows you to create clone after clone, put them in status and every
time you die - bingo a new body.
Basicly it's like popping another quarter into the video machine and
getting a new life. If that's your
style of gaming, there is nothing in the system to stop you, but its not
role playing.
> Also, the spell stats that they find the other's existance intolerable, so the
> nicest thing to DO is to brainwash it.
No, the nicest thing to do is not to create the clone at all. Then you
wouldn't have to suspend its
development, brainwash its mind or worry about it going insane. That
borders on evil and is definitly not
nice.
-
Xira
In article <33246A...@castle.net>, ray...@castle.net says...
>> I personally don't give a crap weather or not Im killing a child if i were
to
>> have an abortion, it's better to kill them now than to let them live in this
>> hell we call earth.
>
>We were discussing a fantasy game in which someone kept cloning humans
>or casting
>temporal status on undeveloped clones. Why the sudden hostility ? Where
>did the abortion issue come in?
>And if you could make it in life, why decide someone else can't? I'm
>pro-choice, and your body is your
>own, but I don't agree with your reasoning. Now, let's try and separate
>fantasy from reality.
:shrug:
I guess i was wrong then.
> Back to my original post - We are talking about a role-playing game.
>If
>you intend to actually
>role-play then you must consider the morality of the issue, the feelings
>of those who's life you are
>toying with and the character you are playing. If you are not
>role-playing, then sure, the system
>allows you to create clone after clone, put them in status and every
>time you die - bingo a new body.
>Basicly it's like popping another quarter into the video machine and
>getting a new life. If that's your
>style of gaming, there is nothing in the system to stop you, but its not
>role playing.
Naaa, I generally never play any charecter that's of a better alingment than i
am, meaning no good charecters.
I hate haveing extreamly bloodthirsty impulses in a game and not being able to
carry them out because he's X/'good'...
srenn...@aol.com
>Naaa, I generally never play any charecter that's of a better alingment than
>i
>am, meaning no good charecters.
>I hate haveing extreamly bloodthirsty impulses in a game and not being able
>to
>carry them out because he's X/'good'...
>
>
Guess you missed the 'role' part out then! Ya know, 'role' playing, as in not playing yourself but a 'role'...
Geddit???
"Loyalty counts, all guilt is relative, and never let your conscience be your guide!"
David Tolstrup
Ray Delgado <ray...@castle.net> wrote:
>
> Xira wrote:
> >
> > In article <332164...@castle.net>, ray...@castle.net says...
> > >clone must care, nuture and raise it for the 2-8 months until it
> > >matures. This quickly develops into a parental role. Now imagine the
> > >unfeeling, uncaring, callus individual who does this time and again,
> > >creating duplicate after duplicate, brain washing each into forgetting
> > >about the other's existence. Or someone tries to cast a temporal statis
> > >spell on this sibling/child, effectively stopping its development and
> > >sentencing it to non-existance. It amounts to torture of an unsuspecting
> > >and innocent child for personnal gain. No good person, and few neutrals,
> > >could abide the thought of this helpless, unknowing innocent held so
> > >unfairly and unjustly. If you think of this as conceiving and raising a
> > >child, and not as a game tool to make a backup character, then you can
> > >appreciate the horrific implications of cloning, and the very real issue
> > >of possible shifts to very evil alignments.
> >
> > I personally don't give a crap weather or not Im killing a child if i were to
> > have an abortion, it's better to kill them now than to let them live in this
> > hell we call earth.
>
> We were discussing a fantasy game in which someone kept cloning humans
> or casting
> temporal status on undeveloped clones. Why the sudden hostility ? Where
> did the abortion issue come in?
> And if you could make it in life, why decide someone else can't? I'm
> pro-choice, and your body is your
> own, but I don't agree with your reasoning. Now, let's try and separate
> fantasy from reality.
>
> you intend to actually
> role-play then you must consider the morality of the issue, the feelings
> of those who's life you are
> toying with and the character you are playing. If you are not
> role-playing, then sure, the system
> allows you to create clone after clone, put them in status and every
> time you die - bingo a new body.
> Basicly it's like popping another quarter into the video machine and
> getting a new life. If that's your
> style of gaming, there is nothing in the system to stop you, but its not
> role playing.
>
> > nicest thing to DO is to brainwash it.
>
> No, the nicest thing to do is not to create the clone at all. Then you
> wouldn't have to suspend its
> development, brainwash its mind or worry about it going insane. That
> borders on evil and is definitly not
> nice.
>
> -
> raydium
>
> " No man is an island. I've met a few penninsulas, several points, a
> couple of capes,
> and once knew a fellow who was an isthmus, but no islands. "
You get flesh samples from whoever you don't want to die and you stash
them in magical cold storage or something. If they die, _then_ you
cast the spell. Maybe you could create a 9th level variant that creates
an empty husk for the original mind and soul to inhabit.
Rohan Tolstrup
Bob Baldwin
David Tolstrup wrote:
>
> Ray Delgado <ray...@castle.net> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >
> > No, the nicest thing to do is not to create the clone at all. Then you
> > wouldn't have to suspend its
> > development, brainwash its mind or worry about it going insane. That
> > borders on evil and is definitly not
> > nice.
> >
> You get flesh samples from whoever you don't want to die and you stash
> them in magical cold storage or something. If they die, _then_ you
> cast the spell. Maybe you could create a 9th level variant that creates
> an empty husk for the original mind and soul to inhabit.
>
Ok, so if I create a clone of myself while I'm alive it will go insane.
Got it. But what if I then use Feeblemind on it, then Magic Jar? I
have a disposable me, right?. ;-}
--
BB
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
"4 out of 5 victims of UCE recommend new .spam.kill.";
check out the free sample in my _return to_ line.
David Tolstrup
You should cultivate some mates. Once I got into an 'immortality net,'
whereby my mage, Vangerdahast, and a few other notables had flesh samples
of each other, ready in case one died. That would work. Or you research
that Stasis Clone spell of Manshoon's (the clone is in stasis until
you die).
Rohan Tolstrup