Gygax speaks out in Dragon 238

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Kebenaran

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Dragon 238 popped up in my mailbox today and for the first time I actually
bothered to read one of the designer profiles that Dragon has used to replace
the "Current Clack" column (which was one of my favorites *sniff, sniff*).
Anyway, I want to quote a small section here where Gygax states:

"The Oerth needs demons and devils to plague it, and why not PC assassins and
the like too? Those who object to such things don't buy RPGs anyway.
Similarly, those who want 'storytelling,' an emphasis on 'roleplaying' (read:
borring yakking and amateur thespianism), need to be ignored. The action is
difficult to create, [but] opportunities for roleplaying can be created easily
by even a moderately skilled DM."

How do you like them apples? Still a man with strong opinions... I think he's
spot on with the first couple of sentences. I am all for bringing back demons
and such for Greyhawk (FR can keep Baatezu and such to placate "concerned"
parents) and PC assassins. As for the middle, I think TSR's AD&D products have
started to offer more variety in the past few years. There still are linear
story-telling products, but there are also more open-ended adventures now. I
hope TSR can publish an array of products that pleases all kinds of fans; those
who prefer hack-n-slash get theirs, as well as those who prefer
story-telling/role-playing or problem solving. And of course combinations
thereof as well. I did enjoy the 'amateur thespianism' jab though... it always
strikes as ridiculous hilarity when I witness the common affliction of extreme
over-acting at convention games. Most role-players would not be invited to
perform with the Royal Shakespeare Company for good reason.

The last sentence was perhaps the most interesting... I'm not sure which is
*more* difficult to create... the excitement and steady flow of the action, or
good, believable role-playing and story. What do you say?


William McCarthy
kebe...@aol.com
e-mail address for spambots: u...@ftc.gov

Dave Brohman

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Kebenaran (kebe...@aol.com) wrote:

<SNIP>

> The last sentence was perhaps the most interesting... I'm not sure which is
> *more* difficult to create... the excitement and steady flow of the action, or
> good, believable role-playing and story. What do you say?

I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.
Just cos he invented it doesn't make him the guru. Edison invented the
motion picture camera but he isn't the worlds greatest film director.

BTW, I am not flaming you. If I sound annoyed, it is towards Gygax, not
you. Please, take no offense. If you, or any others, are fans of Gygax
then more power to you. I personally can't stand the goof.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Brohman http://chat.carleton.ca/~dbrohman
dbro...@chat.carleton.ca In Cyberspace, nobody cares if you scream
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flykiller

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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>I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
> always.

It's people like him that make the world move forward, or at least move. Let
him be arrogant and egotistical, I like his game. And it is his game. None of
us other dweebs thought of it.

Gygax, you will never see it or hear it, but tonight I will raise a toast to
you who have provided me with so many laughs, so many friends, and so many
memories. When I'm old, I'll still remember my characters and their
adventures, and I'll still be looking for a good game. Thank you.

Kebenaran

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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>BTW, I am not flaming you. If I sound annoyed, it is towards Gygax, not
> you. Please, take no offense. If you, or any others, are fans of Gygax
> then more power to you. I personally can't stand the goof.

No offence taken. I agree that he is pretty egotistical and when he was in
charge of TSR he did wacky and stupid things that I disagreed with then and
still do now. But he does come up with some interesting ideas from time to
time, such as perhaps his comments in the latest Dragon. I did not mean to
imply that he is *the* D&D guru. I believe that may be Bruce Cordell at this
time.... :-)

Knifenu

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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If it doesnt say GYGAX on it, it aint AD&D.

Knifenu
1st Edition beat out 2nd Edition in nation wide taste tests.

Dave Brohman

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Knifenu (kni...@aol.com) wrote:

> If it doesnt say GYGAX on it, it aint AD&D.

This says SOOO much about you.

> Knifenu
> 1st Edition beat out 2nd Edition in nation wide taste tests.

You take some time out from sticking your foot in your mouth to stick
your books in it instead?

You should try reading them instead, or in your case having someone else
read them to you.


Camille Klein

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Quoth Dave Brohman <dbro...@chat.carleton.ca>:

: I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
: always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.

Amen! My husband (who has met the man several times) flatly refused to
introduce me to him at GenCon97 because he didn't want to have to bail me
out of the Milwaukee County gaol[1].

At that same GenCon, the following exchange was heard:

Winter: "Hey look, there's Gary Gygax!"
Me: "Who cares?"

A look over my shoulder saw a much annoyed Gygax looking back at me. I
was so very tempted to Vir-wave[2] to him, but pity stayed my hand[3].

--Camille.

[1] I have a VERY low bozo-tolerance level, and a hot temper to go right
along with it.
[2] Babylon 5. The episode where Vir waves to Morden right after telling
him what he wants.
[3] It's a pity I had a BattleTech tournament to get to.[4]
[4] Spot the oblique reference and win a cheese.
--
"It's not everyday you meet a legend." -- Mike Stackpole
The EHL: http:/www.evilnet.net/ehl/ UIN:2499540
Ministry of BattleTech: The Next Generation: http://mob.rpex.com/
http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/toppersonmain.html
LINUS TORVALDS FOR SENTIENT OF THE CENTURY

Christian or Denise Walker

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Kebenaran <kebe...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805170444...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...


> >BTW, I am not flaming you. If I sound annoyed, it is towards Gygax, not
> > you. Please, take no offense. If you, or any others, are fans of
Gygax
> > then more power to you. I personally can't stand the goof.
>
> No offence taken. I agree that he is pretty egotistical and when he was
in
> charge of TSR he did wacky and stupid things that I disagreed with then
and
> still do now. But he does come up with some interesting ideas from time
to
> time, such as perhaps his comments in the latest Dragon. I did not mean
to
> imply that he is *the* D&D guru. I believe that may be Bruce Cordell at
this
> time.... :-)
>

This bring up an interesting question: Now that Gary is gone, who do you
see as the most creative AD&D mind?

Me? I've always been impressed with Roger Moore. Not many 'big' projects
carry his name, but through his many editorials as editor of Dragon he
showed himself to be a great role-player and very creative thinker. I wish
we could see many more of his ideas in print. I really believe he could
come up with a fantasy setting that would put the Forgotten realms in the
dirt.

- Christian


--
Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail

"I'm tasting some of the guano. Do I feel different?? If so, I'm going to
mix some with my drinking water."
- Dave from Knights of the Dinner table #11
***********
gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa

Edgegreen

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Jeff Grubb

Look at all he has done

Also Dave Cook, but he ain't thar' no more.

Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On 17 May 1998 04:06:52 GMT, flyk...@aol.com (Flykiller) wrote:

>>I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
>> always.
>

>It's people like him that make the world move forward, or at least move. Let
>him be arrogant and egotistical, I like his game.

His game? How about "his concept"? Tho Arenson had a lot to do with
it, EGG had a lot to do with his major sector of my life. Though I
differ with EGG about the details, thanl yopu EGG for givng me RPGs!


Spam Filter Notice: Remove "REMOVE2REPLY" to reply by email.
Alan D Kohler <hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net>
New on my RPG Pages(3/6/98):
SAGE free net SFRPG system!
General: http://poky.srv.net/~hwkwnd/homepage.html
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Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On 17 May 1998 05:56:43 GMT, "Christian or Denise Walker"
<ant...@nospamdeltanet.com> wrote:

>
>
>Kebenaran <kebe...@aol.com> wrote in article
><199805170444...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>> >BTW, I am not flaming you. If I sound annoyed, it is towards Gygax, not
>> > you. Please, take no offense. If you, or any others, are fans of
>Gygax
>> > then more power to you. I personally can't stand the goof.
>>
>> No offence taken. I agree that he is pretty egotistical and when he was
>in
>> charge of TSR he did wacky and stupid things that I disagreed with then
>and
>> still do now. But he does come up with some interesting ideas from time
>to
>> time, such as perhaps his comments in the latest Dragon. I did not mean
>to
>> imply that he is *the* D&D guru. I believe that may be Bruce Cordell at
>this
>> time.... :-)
>>
>

>This bring up an interesting question: Now that Gary is gone, who do you
>see as the most creative AD&D mind?
>
>Me? I've always been impressed with Roger Moore.

me too. Though I understand he is responsible for the travesty that
was kender, I have always found him a wonderfully creative mind...

Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On Sun, 17 May 1998 05:40:28 GMT, ejg...@mindspring.com (Edgegreen)
wrote:

>Jeff Grubb

Ditto

>Look at all he has done
>
>Also Dave Cook, but he ain't thar' no more.

Double ditto.

>
>
>>
>>This bring up an interesting question: Now that Gary is gone, who do you
>>see as the most creative AD&D mind?
>>
>>Me? I've always been impressed with Roger Moore.

Triple ditto. The true master stand out for all of us.

Gebhard Blucher

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Dave Brohman wrote:

> I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like

> always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.

> Just cos he invented it doesn't make him the guru. Edison invented the
> motion picture camera but he isn't the worlds greatest film director.

> I personally can't stand the goof.

BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU SHALL FEEL THE TWO-EDGED SWORD OF VENGEANCE!!!!!!!!!!!! (to quote a
real peach of a web-page)

PREPARE TO FACE MY WRATH!!!!!!!!!!

AS A PALADIN OF THE HOLY ORDER OF EVERLASTING AND UNRELENTING VIGILANCE
OF THE CELESTIAL CHURCH OF GYGAX (a Gygaxian Paladin, if you will), IT
IS MY SOLEMN DUTY TO STRIKE YOU DOWN LEST YOU REPENT! POST-HASTE! AD
HOC! RIKKY TIKK!

Ahem! Sorry 'bout that. Got a little carried away.

~ GB

Alan Kellogg

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In article <199805170448...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
kni...@aol.com (Knifenu) wrote:

"If it doesnt say GYGAX on it, it aint AD&D.
"

"Knifenu

If it doesn't say GYGAX on it, it aint Cyborg Commandos.

Alan

--
Perilous Perambulations
A 'zine for *Dangerous Journeys*
contact mythu...@funtv.com for details

Sean Emmott

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Knifenu wrote in message
<199805170448...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...


>If it doesnt say GYGAX on it, it aint AD&D.
>
>Knifenu

>1st Edition beat out 2nd Edition in nation wide taste tests.

If it doesn't say GYGAX on it, it was probably written by somebody else.

Sean


SCSimmons9

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In article <6jltrb$1j1$5...@pinta.pagesz.net>, Camille Klein
<god...@nina.pagesz.net> writes:

>[3] It's a pity I had a BattleTech tournament to get to.[4]
>[4] Spot the oblique reference and win a cheese.

_Bored of the Rings_, of course. I don't want to know what kind of cheese I've
won, though ...

Inshallah, Christian

Christian
"But you wouldn't have ever known I was
going to kill you if I hadn't been the one to
tell you. Doesn't that show you that I can
be trusted?" (Inigo Montoya)


Christian or Denise Walker

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Alan Kellogg <mythu...@funtv.com> wrote in article
<mythusmage-17...@dial-3-195.funtv.com>...


> In article <199805170448...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> kni...@aol.com (Knifenu) wrote:
>

> "If it doesnt say GYGAX on it, it aint AD&D.
> "
> "Knifenu
>

> If it doesn't say GYGAX on it, it aint Cyborg Commandos.
>

I found this game at a 99 cent store in Sacramento and after reading it I
felt they had charged me too much. I threw the game out, but used the box
to carry my DM screen, dice and notes whenever I went to a friend's house
to game. At least something from the game was useful.


- Christian

--
Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail
"I'm tasting some of the guano. Do I feel different?? If so, I'm going to
mix some with my drinking water."
- Dave from Knights of the Dinner table #11
***********
gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa

e-mail : ant...@deltanet.com

Christian or Denise Walker

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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SCSimmons9 <scsim...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805171409...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...


> In article <6jltrb$1j1$5...@pinta.pagesz.net>, Camille Klein
> <god...@nina.pagesz.net> writes:
>
> >[3] It's a pity I had a BattleTech tournament to get to.[4]
> >[4] Spot the oblique reference and win a cheese.
>
> _Bored of the Rings_, of course. I don't want to know what kind of
cheese I've
> won, though ...
>

I'm guessing that the reference was Vir waving at Morden. In that episode
of B5, Vir tells Morden that someday he will see Morden's head on a pole an
he, Vir, will look up and give a little wave.

John R. Troy

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On 17 May 1998 05:50:35 GMT, Camille Klein <god...@nina.pagesz.net>
wrote:

>Quoth Dave Brohman <dbro...@chat.carleton.ca>:
>
>: I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like


>: always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.
>

>Amen! My husband (who has met the man several times) flatly refused to
>introduce me to him at GenCon97 because he didn't want to have to bail me
>out of the Milwaukee County gaol[1].

Maybe if you even cared to attempt talking to the person like a
regular human being instead of behaving like the stereotypical
anti-Gygax gamer, you'd change this statement.

Save this type of rage for people who really deserve it.

>At that same GenCon, the following exchange was heard:
>
>Winter: "Hey look, there's Gary Gygax!"
>Me: "Who cares?"
>
>A look over my shoulder saw a much annoyed Gygax looking back at me. I
>was so very tempted to Vir-wave[2] to him, but pity stayed my hand[3].

I'd look at you with a rather annoyed look too if you made a rude
comment like that towards me.

John R. Troy

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On 17 May 1998 00:14:04 GMT, kebe...@aol.com (Kebenaran) wrote:

>Anyway, I want to quote a small section here where Gygax states:
>
>"The Oerth needs demons and devils to plague it, and why not PC assassins and
>the like too? Those who object to such things don't buy RPGs anyway.
>Similarly, those who want 'storytelling,' an emphasis on 'roleplaying' (read:
>borring yakking and amateur thespianism), need to be ignored. The action is
>difficult to create, [but] opportunities for roleplaying can be created easily
>by even a moderately skilled DM."

[sniped for space]

>story-telling products, but there are also more open-ended adventures now. I
>hope TSR can publish an array of products that pleases all kinds of fans; those
>who prefer hack-n-slash get theirs, as well as those who prefer
>story-telling/role-playing or problem solving. And of course combinations
>thereof as well. I did enjoy the 'amateur thespianism' jab though... it always
>strikes as ridiculous hilarity when I witness the common affliction of extreme
>over-acting at convention games. Most role-players would not be invited to
>perform with the Royal Shakespeare Company for good reason.

I think the problem that Gary was dealing with here involves a trend
towards diminishing the other fun side of gaming. Hack and Slash,
Gaining Experience and goodies, etc...

See, it revolves around the the munchkin-bashers and the odd dichotomy
of the paper RPG vs popular computer RPGs and other types of games.
Note that the term muchkinism creeps up to ridicule any sort of
"power-gamer", sometimes almost to an extreme. It seems now that
gamers are trying to prove their salt by stating all of their
vulnerabilities, bashing TSR NPCs, etc.

In speaking with Gary many times, he seems to seek a balance towards
the two. Gamers are now being made to feel guilty if they
legitimately enjoy gaining a level or getting a magic sword. He's
looked at the apeal of games like Dungeon Keeper, Diablo, and the
like, and feels that RPGs are missing a good thing if they ignore the
features that appeal to that audience that were always in AD&D from
the beginning. The fact that the gaming groups seem to post a lot of
humor, criticism, etc, over power-gaming (Munchkins), etc., appears to
me a dismissal of this element. Yet, gaming needs to grow, and Gary
is looking at Computer Games (which have a much wider audience today),
Card Games, and what young kids (like his own son and his peers) want
in an RPG.

He doesn't think it should all turn into hack and slash totally, but
he's trying to emphasize that there's a balance involved, and is
stricking at those who think RPGs must always involve complex
storytelling. I believe he's also criticizing both the White Wolf
ideal of nearly removing all random-probability from gaming, and TSR's
focus on meta-campaigns involving NPCs from novels and pushing
world-shaking events that change the entire campaign and push a new
"revised" milieu, rather than basic action scenarios which can be
fleshed out by GMs.

Camille Klein

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Quoth John R. Troy <john...@tiac.net>:

: Maybe if you even cared to attempt talking to the person like a


: regular human being instead of behaving like the stereotypical
: anti-Gygax gamer, you'd change this statement.

Re-read my statement. I have not met the man. I don't want to meet the
man. I've seen the man's website and heard enough from my husband (whom I
trust as a good judge of character) to know that he's not a person I would
want to meet. Quite frankly, the impression that I got from his website
is that he's completely self-absorbed and full of himself and exactly the
person I care NOT to waste my time with. My husband's telling me "You
really don't want me to introduce you to him, Camille" tells me that that
impression is correct.

That said--kindly ESAD.

--Camille.

mad...@trip.net

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In article <6jlch5$41c$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:

> I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
> always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.

> Just cos he invented it doesn't make him the guru. Edison invented the
> motion picture camera but he isn't the worlds greatest film director.

Opinions on Gygax aside, how do these statements of his set him apart from any
other opinionated, egotistical gamer? You can't swing a dead cat at a
convention or newsgroup without hitting some geek who knows the way it oughta
be. ;) *Most* of the gamers I've ever met (including the handsome devil in
the mirror) are egotistical, elitist assholes to some extent. It's part of
our charm. :D

Stay loose...

Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Pinochet

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Christian or Denise Walker wrote in message
<01bd81a3$8342fe20$dc40fecc@datel-customer>...


>
>
>SCSimmons9 <scsim...@aol.com> wrote in article

>> In article <6jltrb$1j1$5...@pinta.pagesz.net>, Camille Klein

>> >[3] It's a pity I had a BattleTech tournament to get to.[4]


>> >[4] Spot the oblique reference and win a cheese.
>>
>> _Bored of the Rings_, of course. I don't want to know what kind of
>cheese I've won, though ...
>>
>I'm guessing that the reference was Vir waving at Morden. In that episode
>of B5, Vir tells Morden that someday he will see Morden's head on a pole an
>he, Vir, will look up and give a little wave.


Nope. An oblique reference is an indirect one, the Vir-Wave was fairly
direct, and even had a foot note.

DocCross

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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>I found this game at a 99 cent store in Sacramento and after reading it I
>felt they had charged me too much. I threw the game out, but used the box
>to carry my DM screen, dice and notes whenever I went to a friend's house
>to game. At least something from the game was useful.
>

I got the game at Viking Hobby in Sacramento years ago for FREE with the
purchase of 75 cents worth of dice. I also think I was overcharged:) I should
have been PAID to take it off of their hands:) But at least I can use the box
for storing my Knights Of The Dinner Table comics:)


Doc Cross
Official Roleplaying Gamer of the New Millenium
Insert witty or profound saying here


Sean K 'Mr. Monkey Mouth' Reynolds

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Camille Klein wrote:
> [3] It's a pity I had a BattleTech tournament to get to.[4]
> [4] Spot the oblique reference and win a cheese.

"He would have finished Goddam off then and there, but pity stayed his
hand. <italics>It's a pity I've run out of bullets,</italics>, he
thought, as he went back up the tunnel, pursued by Goddam's cries of
rage."

- Bored of the Rings, by Harvard Lampoon, p.xxi

--
Sean K Reynolds http://home.earthlink.net/~skreyn/
To see how I would rule as a benign despot, see my web page.
"Later, alone, Belial will curl himself up under the mountains and
remember Seraphiel, and archangel who fell by his side, who was one of
few Belial had considered a friend." - 'To Reign In Hell'

Camille Klein

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Quoth Sean K 'Mr. Monkey Mouth' Reynolds <!!!skreyn@!!!earthlink.net>:

: "He would have finished Goddam off then and there, but pity stayed his


: hand. <italics>It's a pity I've run out of bullets,</italics>, he
: thought, as he went back up the tunnel, pursued by Goddam's cries of
: rage."

: - Bored of the Rings, by Harvard Lampoon, p.xxi

I'm impressed!

--Camille. Here, have a Brie and some bonus cheddar. Just cos.

pm...@klondike.com

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In article <6jlch5$41c$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:

<<<snip>>>

> I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
> always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.
> Just cos he invented it doesn't make him the guru. Edison invented the
> motion picture camera but he isn't the worlds greatest film director.

> Dave Brohman
http://chat.carleton.ca/~dbrohman
> dbro...@chat.carleton.ca In Cyberspace, nobody cares if you scream
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hiya Dave.
I am a 'Gygax fan' (If such a creature exist), and I am not offended. So
don't think of this as a flame or anything. Arrogant? Sure, he created the
whole 'rpg' thing (overall) after all. Egotistical? If you created a game
that has sold MILLIONS of $$$ you'd be egotistical too. He has every 'right'
to be. ;-)
I am curious as to why you think of him that way? Sure, he is
opinionated, but he DID create the game (popularity wise, more or less), and
it didn't get that popular by being 'boring and no fun to play'. So, I
figure, he has every right to be opinionated; he musta done something right...
I agree with him for the most part; I really can't stand all those 'true
role-players' as I call them. Put them and their 12th level characters into
an actual adventure where they have to actually *think* as opposed to "act"
their way out of a situation and you can start digging the graves right now.
;)
As for EGG not being a 'guru', I would have to disagree. Whereas Edison
just created it, he didn't actively 'do' anything with it. However, Gygax
created AND continued to 'do' stuff with it. I would say that he qualifies
as a 'guru'. :)

Well, Im done now. I just had to ask why so many 2nd edition (you are a 2nd
edition player, arn't you?) and even some 1st edition players don't like
Mr.Gygax's view of the RPG scene.

Denakhan the Arch-Mage

Russ Taylor

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In article <3560076f...@news.tiac.net>, john...@tiac.net (John R.
Troy) wrote:

>In speaking with Gary many times, he seems to seek a balance towards
>the two. Gamers are now being made to feel guilty if they
>legitimately enjoy gaining a level or getting a magic sword. He's

No kidding -- this has gotten way out hand. I see GMs gloating about
killing 3/4 of a party with some giant beetles, or about how their 13th
level players are estatic to find a +1 sword, or a 3rd level spell.
Where's the fun in that? The game is not about the GM screwing over the
players, it's about finding a balance between role-playing, adventure,
fun, combat, treasure, and epic-building.

--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Blimey, this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought"
-- Dennis Moore

Russ Taylor

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

In article <6jn20t$gr4$1...@pinta.pagesz.net>, Camille Klein
<god...@nina.pagesz.net> wrote:

>Re-read my statement. I have not met the man. I don't want to meet the
>man. I've seen the man's website and heard enough from my husband (whom I
>trust as a good judge of character) to know that he's not a person I would
>want to meet. Quite frankly, the impression that I got from his website
>is that he's completely self-absorbed and full of himself and exactly the
>person I care NOT to waste my time with. My husband's telling me "You
>really don't want me to introduce you to him, Camille" tells me that that
>impression is correct.

Well, at least you live in ignorance by choice, rather than by an accident
of fate. Ciao!

--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk

"Next time my way" -- the Lumati Ambassador, Babylon 5

Gebhard Blucher

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Quoth Camille Klein:

> Re-read my statement. I have not met the man. I don't want to meet the
> man. I've seen the man's website and heard enough from my husband (whom I
> trust as a good judge of character) to know that he's not a person I would
> want to meet. Quite frankly, the impression that I got from his website
> is that he's completely self-absorbed and full of himself and exactly the
> person I care NOT to waste my time with. My husband's telling me "You
> really don't want me to introduce you to him, Camille" tells me that that
> impression is correct.

I honestly cannot say that I've met him in the flesh, however I have had
the pleasure to correspond with him on occasion through email; and I
have to say that I've found him to be a very friendly and helpful
person. I also was pleasantly surprised that he took the time out to
respond to each and every one of my email missives (considering that he,
no doubt, receives quite a bit of email and is probably a very busy man,
this says a lot about him). He may be highly opinionated or have strong
convictions, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is arrogant,
self-absorbed or full of himself. But than, YMMV.

~ GB

MLMartin98

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

>
>This bring up an interesting question: Now that Gary is gone, who do you
>see as the most creative AD&D mind?

Personally, I've always thought Dave Arneson--the member of
the original duo who had the most to do with the whole role-playing
concept--gets short shrift.

Tracy Hickman's done some nice work (DL and the original
Ravenloft module), but he seems to be becoming Gygax v. 2.0.
;-)

Harold Johnson never gets credit, but what I've heard
suggests that he's a very creative person and a good
worldbuilder, having come up
with about half of Dragonlance and done some good work as
the Ravenloft director.

Jeff Grubb's being mentioned a lot, and I like what I've seen
of his stuff, even though I haven't seen much. (_Neither Man
Nor Beast_ is one of the best Ravenloft adventures, IMHO.)
He's a great writer, too; both the FR comic book (what I remember
of it) and _Lord Toede_ were hilarious.

I've had very good experiences with Dave Gross, both as
designer (Book II of _Bleak House_) and as an editor.

The two who I'm most familiar with, though, and who I admire
the most, are the Dreadful Duo of Ravenloft. William W. Connors does good
adventures, great settings (Masque of the Red Death, The Shadow Rift), and is
so good at rules design it's almost frightening. Steve Miller is likewise
remarkable at developing settings and adventures, and at both resolving and
dropping little details in his designs.

Matthew L. Martin

ron poirier

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Kebenaran wrote:

> I did not mean to
> imply that he is *the* D&D guru. I believe that may be Bruce Cordell at this
> time.... :-)

Hear, hear!

Any other Cordellites out there?

:^)

- Ron ^*^

Dave Brohman

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

mad...@trip.net wrote:
> In article <6jlch5$41c$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
> dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:

> > I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
> > always. He is not the be all and end all of D&D/AD&D/RPG opinions.
> > Just cos he invented it doesn't make him the guru. Edison invented the
> > motion picture camera but he isn't the worlds greatest film director.

> Opinions on Gygax aside, how do these statements of his set him apart from any


> other opinionated, egotistical gamer? You can't swing a dead cat at a
> convention or newsgroup without hitting some geek who knows the way it oughta
> be. ;) *Most* of the gamers I've ever met (including the handsome devil in
> the mirror) are egotistical, elitist assholes to some extent. It's part of
> our charm. :D

Oh, I agree. But most people dont go around claiming that 'Joe Blow the
Asshole Gamer' is a roleplaying god and everyting his says is the
gospel. This does happen with the EGGman.

Dave Brohman

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net) wrote:
> In article <3560076f...@news.tiac.net>, john...@tiac.net (John R.
> Troy) wrote:

> >In speaking with Gary many times, he seems to seek a balance towards
> >the two. Gamers are now being made to feel guilty if they
> >legitimately enjoy gaining a level or getting a magic sword. He's

> No kidding -- this has gotten way out hand. I see GMs gloating about
> killing 3/4 of a party with some giant beetles, or about how their 13th
> level players are estatic to find a +1 sword, or a 3rd level spell.
> Where's the fun in that? The game is not about the GM screwing over the
> players, it's about finding a balance between role-playing, adventure,
> fun, combat, treasure, and epic-building.

I hear you brother. This is, by far the the hardest aspect of GMing,
finding the right balance. Most people who haven't GMed seem to think
that coming up with ideas is the hardest part, but not by a long shot.
I wish there was some sort of magic formula for GMing. You know, just
add 15% hack & slash, 23% NPC interaction, 3 magic items, etc.

We can only dream.

Personaly, I pay attention to what the players say and do during the
game. If, when I hand out Xp they say "WOW! Holy Crap thats a lot!" it
either means I have been too stingy so far or too generous now. If,
upon gaining a level the player says "I can't believe I finally went
up!" I have porbably been too slow in advancing them, if he says "The ink
isn't even dry from the last time I went up." it is too fast. If upon
finding a +1 sword the player falls to his kness and thnks god, I have
probably been too stingy. If upon finding a +5 sword the player says
"Just throw it on the cart with the otehrs" than I have been too generous.

Some of these examples are a bit extreme to make a point, but I hope the
point is made. It is often hard as a GM to judge the balance well.
Paying attention to your players and their reactions can be very
helpful.

And the right balance one week might be wring the next. If everyone has
had a crappy week, than some good ol' Hack & Clash might be called for
so everyone can work out their frustrations. And the balance may be
seriously skewed one session (nothing but NPC interaction and talking
say), so another session heavy on H&S or puzzle solving might be called
for to balance it out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sidhain

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Perhaps tis best we balance, Acting is 90% role playing. while
role-playing is actually on 10% actually playing a roll, and 90% rolling
dice (or other random number generator of your choice) book keeping, number
crunching etc. I do not respec actors. They get all the accolades wihtout
the work but I feel that we perhaps need to add more to gaming than what
has been and is there now, Evolve Gaming, not devolve it. In the early days
D&D was hack and slash in fact most beginning games that I have witnessed
start out that way and as the personality of the charecters develops that
dies down and typically role-playing ensues. What we need is a way to keep
that H&S thrill while say chatting with a peasant or somesuch
role-experience, this may be only possible if we the gamer s learn how to
experience real life in a way that we percieve it and experience it instead
of being merely driven by it, munchkinism evilves form being jaded, form
being frustrate in the world and felling of impotence. Gaming is aobut
power for some. Power for thr player to act in worlds since they often
cannot alter there own, power for the Gamemaster because he controls the
ultimate fates of the characters etc. But perhaps if we could as a gorup
step back and look again at our own arrogance we might re assess our
opinions. Me I doubt I ever will in the real world, I am not nealry as
conceited and arrogant as I may seem i here, because my opinions about the
real world while strong do not alter the world, but here, in this semi real
environment we have a chance to speak our minds and perhaps not only share
our ideas but our principles and perceptions with others, there will always
be detractors, but by the same token is it not what we are all here for is
to improve our hobby. If we are not here to improve it, then we should quit
playing. I myself have made negative comments about Andon running Gen Con,
and Alternity, but the INTENT has always been to see them do there best and
perhaps understand why what they are doing now is not up to my standards.
This being said how many of us are improving out hobby? WHile Andon, WOTC
and Tsr and many others are...perhaps not in a way we prefer perhas their
improvements may be evolutionary dead ends for gaming, I cnanot judge and I
cannot foretell the future. But ultimately the only people we ave to please
withour views our ourselves. And TSR/`WOTC/ etc must please thousands to
millions of us gamers or attempt to, and as chaotic a gorup as we all are
that is damn near impossible but they attempt anyway. the whole point of
this is what are we going to do to improve gaming?


Flykiller

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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>He may be highly opinionated or have strong
>convictions, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is arrogant,
>self-absorbed or full of himself. But than, YMMV.

People who are self-absorbed and full of themselves tend to think other people
are self-absorbed and full of themselves.

Flykiller

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

>Arrogant? Sure, he created the
>whole 'rpg' thing (overall) after all. Egotistical? If you created a game
>that has sold MILLIONS of $$$ you'd be egotistical too. He has every 'right'
>to be. ;-)

You got it. I think people who put down Gygax are just jealous of him, or just
jealous of his status.

Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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On Sun, 17 May 1998 21:22:32 GMT, pm...@klondike.com wrote:

>In article <6jlch5$41c$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
> dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:

> As for EGG not being a 'guru', I would have to disagree. Whereas Edison
>just created it, he didn't actively 'do' anything with it. However, Gygax
>created AND continued to 'do' stuff with it. I would say that he qualifies
>as a 'guru'. :)

I personally think that is anything but true. Sure, he saw AD&D along
for a long time, but take a look back at AD&D before and after EGG's
involvement. EGG was really a very conservative force in the AD&D
community. He had several ideas that he just would not let go of
despite widespread feelings to the contrary amongst the AD&D
community.

Take for example, level limits. EGG was absolutely convinced that
level limits as they were should be inviolate, and created rather
complex and restrictive level limit tables for the Unearthed Arcana.

After EGG, in 2nd edition, level limits were much simpler, and
relaxed, and the rules offered alternatives for those who cried out
for them.

Of course, there were many by then who had already chosen to do things
there own way. No big deal. But I trust everyone here is familiar
oft-repeated comments of EGG's stating that if you weren't playing
AD&D his way, you weren't playing AD&D... not that it stopped a lot of
people.

In short, I think that clearing EGG out as the central authority of
AD&D cleared the way for a lot of creative individuals to do their
best work on the AD&D game... many who have already been mentioned in
this thread. Though the AD&D game.... perhaps even the whole
role-playing hobby... owes a lot to Gygax and Arenson, the AD&D game
benefitted from EGG's eventual dissociation with TSR.


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Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Well, I'm not a fanatical follower, but the products he does write do
seem to be the most daring and inovative ones... Like the oft
(wrongly) maligned Tale of the Comet and the psuedo-lovecraftian S&P
adventure Gates of Firestorm Peak.

Alan D Kohler

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Gee, ya think it could be that maybe we just disagree with Gygax's
general philosophy of gaming? Just maybe?

'Nathan

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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In the world 'Nathan made up, Flykiller said:
>>Arrogant? Sure, he created the
>>whole 'rpg' thing (overall) after all. Egotistical? If you created a game
>>that has sold MILLIONS of $$$ you'd be egotistical too. He has every 'right'
>>to be. ;-)

F> You got it. I think people who put down Gygax are just jealous of him, or just
F> jealous of his status.

I just think he has a poor group of communication skills, but some
semi-decent ideas. He's no paragon of anything, but I certainly can't
work up the effort to dislike him. :I

--
nbur...@chat.carleton.ca |\|~|
http://wabakimi.carleton.ca/~nburgoin |_|\|
"Touch me now and I don't care, when you take me I'm not there, almost
human but I'll never be the same." -- "Long Way Down," Goo Goo Dolls

William J. Leary Jr.

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May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
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Russ Taylor wrote in message ...


> Well, at least you live in ignorance by choice, rather than by an accident
> of fate. Ciao!


Not at all.

The majority of the opinions any of us hold are developed without direct
contact with the things we develop opinions on. You just choose your
sources carefully. The woman stated that she'd chosen her sources with
care, and even went so far as to elaborate why she trusted those sources.

- Bill


NUELOW

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

The most creative mind in AD&D after Gary Gygax?

If I could only vote for one person, it'd be Jeff Grubb.

(Tracy Hickman, Harold Johnson, Rich Baker, John Rateliff, and Andria Hayday
would come on the short-list immediately afterward, though.)

Steve Miller
Writer of things Ravenloft & Dragonlance

In the Domains of Dread, the trick isn't knowing your enemy.
It's living with what you learn.

Christian or Denise Walker

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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John R. Troy <john...@tiac.net> wrote in article
<3560076f...@news.tiac.net>...


> I believe he's also criticizing both the White Wolf
> ideal of nearly removing all random-probability from gaming, and TSR's
> focus on meta-campaigns involving NPCs from novels and pushing
> world-shaking events that change the entire campaign and push a new
> "revised" milieu, rather than basic action scenarios which can be
> fleshed out by GMs.
>

I love the original world of Greyhawk for these very reasons. No matter
how many years it has been since I played, its always the same old
Greyhawk. I don't have to buy revised settings (now TSR is on its second
revision of the place) or wonder how the novels are changing the face of
the world. I can dust off the box, look over some regional descriptions
and go to work. Of course, the problem with all this is that companies
don't make much many if they never revise settings. Would revenue be
generated by the 'basic action scenarios' the previous poster described?

--
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mix some with my drinking water."
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Ian R Malcomson

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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>Similarly, those who want 'storytelling,' an emphasis on 'roleplaying' (read:
>borring yakking and amateur thespianism), need to be ignored. The action is
>difficult to create, [but] opportunities for roleplaying can be created easily
>by even a moderately skilled DM."

Never met the man, Gygax, but his comments in the early '80s about: "If
you play your own house-rules, then you ain't playing the game
properly", and now the above, have basically turned me against him. His
*writing* (the 1st ed. AD&D books, the G, D, T, etc. modules, et al) is
excellent. From what I've seen of his attitude, I think I'll leave it
at that.

"Those who want..an emphasis on 'roleplaying'...need to be ignored"????
What the hell is he saying here? That AD&D isn't a roleplaying game?
That people who want to put life and depth behind their PCs and
adventures should be cut out of the market? That we should reduce our
"roleplaying" activities to throwing dice and moving figures around a
board?

Que?

--
Ian R Malcomson

Camille Klein

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

Quoth Flykiller <flyk...@aol.com>:

: >He may be highly opinionated or have strong

Takes one to know one, boychik.

--Camille.

aleph

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

> Never met the man, Gygax, but his comments in the early '80s about: "If
> you play your own house-rules, then you ain't playing the game
> properly", and now the above, have basically turned me against him. His
> *writing* (the 1st ed. AD&D books, the G, D, T, etc. modules, et al) is
> excellent. From what I've seen of his attitude, I think I'll leave it
> at that.

That's odd; I've read his book "Master of the Game" - a guide to GM'ing -
and the culmination of skill, to him, is first mastery what is there, then
changing it into something totally new.

But we seem to be requiring something more than human when every quote ever
delivered and every word ever written by a person must be in concord.
Let's assume the man's attitudes are in flux, just like ours.

o
___ have a toolbox; know how to use your toolbox
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___ http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~aleph/add.html
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Alan Kellogg

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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As far as I can tell, those who bash Gygax base their opinions on what
the man said over 20 years ago. I've got news for those folks, people
change.
When we were working on his then latest effort (Dangeous Journeys) his
attitude was, whatever fits your group. If something struck you wrong,
change it.
He's gotten older, more mellow, and he doesn't have the Blume Brothers
countermanding everything he tries to do.
BTW, how many here have seen his latest game, Legendary Adventures?
One more thing; Camille, have you ever considered the possibility your
husband said more about you than he did about Gary?

Alan Kellogg (Mindless Slave of the Great Egg:)

--
Perilous Perambulations
A 'zine for *Dangerous Journeys*
contact mythu...@funtv.com for details

Patrick M. Berry

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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In article <199805172322...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, flyk...@aol.com (Flykiller) writes:
> >He may be highly opinionated or have strong
> >convictions, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is arrogant,
> >self-absorbed or full of himself. But than, YMMV.
>
> People who are self-absorbed and full of themselves tend to think other people
> are self-absorbed and full of themselves.

I know you are, but what am I? :)

Gregory Bernath

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

Alan Kellogg <mythu...@funtv.com> wrote:
>As far as I can tell, those who bash Gygax base their opinions on what
>the man said over 20 years ago. I've got news for those folks, people
>change.

I can tell you're not on the Greytalk mailing list. :-)

EGG was posting there for a while. For good or bad, he's still the
same 'ol Gary.

(Damn. I should have worked the words "fatuous and jejune" in there
somewhere.)

--
Greg Bernath gber...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu

Doug Easterly

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to


Sean Emmott wrote:

> If it doesn't say GYGAX on it, it was probably written by somebody else.
>
> Sean

Heck, more than a few products that DID have Gygax on it were really
written by somebody else....

Mike Wilson, UCE Account

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

Kebenaran <kebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> time, such as perhaps his comments in the latest Dragon. I did not mean to

> imply that he is *the* D&D guru. I believe that may be Bruce Cordell at this
> time.... :-)

Wow, someone else seems to get that drift as well. I see alot of the gaming
style I like from his works... He is writing some really good products (the
Sahaugin series, Dungeon Builders Guidebook, Firestorm peak to mention a
few). I was hoping that he'd get to do some GH products in addition to the
"Return to Tomb of Horros" that he has coming out.

--
---
Mike Wilson http://www.drwho.org
http://www.pobox.com/~mwilson

Christopher Beattie

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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Knifenu wrote:
> 1st Edition beat out 2nd Edition in nation wide taste tests.

That's because 1st Edition has had more aging to it, and that
makes for a better flavor. However, before long 1st Edition
will turn to vinegar, so enjoy it while you can. <G>

Btw, was that:
First First Edition?
First Edition with Oriental Adventures?
First Edition marinated with Dragon Supplements?

or my favorite.
First Edition with character tables from Ardium Grimore,
and critical hit and fumble tables from Rolemaster. (Not
the combat tables, just the hit and fumble ones. <G>)

--
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| /__ __\ Peace |Tantalus Inc. | Key West, FL 33040|
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| |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp> |

Glenn "Bif" Buettner

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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Ian R Malcomson wrote:
>
> >Similarly, those who want 'storytelling,' an emphasis on 'roleplaying' (read:
> >borring yakking and amateur thespianism), need to be ignored. The action is
> >difficult to create, [but] opportunities for roleplaying can be created easily
> >by even a moderately skilled DM."
>
> Never met the man, Gygax, but his comments in the early '80s about: "If
> you play your own house-rules, then you ain't playing the game
> properly", and now the above, have basically turned me against him. His
> *writing* (the 1st ed. AD&D books, the G, D, T, etc. modules, et al) is
> excellent. From what I've seen of his attitude, I think I'll leave it
> at that.
>
> "Those who want..an emphasis on 'roleplaying'...need to be ignored"????
> What the hell is he saying here? That AD&D isn't a roleplaying game?
> That people who want to put life and depth behind their PCs and
> adventures should be cut out of the market? That we should reduce our
> "roleplaying" activities to throwing dice and moving figures around a
> board?


I think he was talking specificaly about Greyhawk, which by nature
always was a hack and slash good old dungeon crawl type setting.

Frodie30

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

I have to agree. I was shocked to here what he had to say. I have always
supported Mr. Gygax, but this bothered me. We allways use house rules and we
try to have a good combination of role and roll playing. I think character
development is VERY important. I sure he had his reasons for his comments and I
hope he returns to TSR, but I would hate to see role-playing shut out.

StephenJ

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

Flykiller wrote:
>
> >I say that Gygax is still an arrogant, egotistical asshole, just like
> > always.
>
> It's people like him that make the world move forward, or at least move. Let
> him be arrogant and egotistical, I like his game. And it is his game. None of
> us other dweebs thought of it.
>
> Gygax, you will never see it or hear it, but tonight I will raise a toast to
> you who have provided me with so many laughs, so many friends, and so many
> memories. When I'm old, I'll still remember my characters and their
> adventures, and I'll still be looking for a good game. Thank you.

Amen to that!

Phil Rhodes

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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On Mon, 18 May 1998 15:16:03 GMT, gber...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu
(Gregory Bernath) wrote:
>(Damn. I should have worked the words "fatuous and jejune" in there
>somewhere.)

How about this (paraphrased) quote:

"Those who disagree with me have opinions that are both fatuous and
jejeune." - EGG

(I'm at work, or I'd post the exact quote...)

-Phil

Dan Bongard

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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William J. Leary Jr. (Bill_...@msn.com) wrote:
: Russ Taylor wrote in message ...

Being openly rude to somebody in public simply because your SO told
you he wasn't worth meeting is not appropriate. You husband tells
you he's a jerk? Fine, think he's a jerk. But being openly rude to
somebody basedly on NO personal experience is childish.

-- Dan

Dan Bongard

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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Ian R Malcomson (i...@assistap.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: "Those who want..an emphasis on 'roleplaying'...need to be ignored"????


: What the hell is he saying here? That AD&D isn't a roleplaying game?
: That people who want to put life and depth behind their PCs and
: adventures should be cut out of the market? That we should reduce our
: "roleplaying" activities to throwing dice and moving figures around a
: board?

It seems to me that he is stating a fairly obvious fact -- AD&D was
designed for a certain type of game, namely the action-adventure
fantasy game. It isn't designed around in-depth roleplaying the
way other systems (such as Amber) are. I think Gygax was saying
that you should ignore people who insist on shoehorning this kind
of thing into AD&D, because AD&D isn't built for it.

I have to agree. There are plenty of games out there; use the
right tool for the task, hm?

-- Dan

Ubiquitous

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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>>Arrogant? Sure, he created the
>>whole 'rpg' thing (overall) after all. Egotistical? If you created a game
>>that has sold MILLIONS of $$$ you'd be egotistical too. He has every 'right'
>>to be. ;-)
>

>You got it. I think people who put down Gygax are just jealous of him, or just

>jealous of his status.

I prefer to think of Gygax as the "William Shatner of role-playing games".
Take that as you will.

==============================================================================
"Gay people, well, gay people are EVIL, evil right down to their
cold black hearts which pump not blood like yours or mine, but
rather a thick, vomitous oil that oozes through their rotten
veins and clots in their pea-sized brains which becomes the
cause of their nazi-esque patterns of violent behavior. Do
you understand?"

Knifenu

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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Gygax simply stated...gimps shouldnt try to play the game, and should NEVER
EVER be allowed to publish stuff under its name. However the gimps at TSR didnt
agree and pushed the gimp like trolls products (in order to make more money)
and cast out the "creator" behind their best seller. Any company who would do
this is a company that doenst care about the game, but its bottom line. Gygax
made TSR a powerhouse, and they simply made him unemployed. Hopefully WotC has
more scruples than this but if they havent...I hope EGG watches the company
flush itself like TSR did.

Knifenu
2nd Edition is crap..you know it, I know it...its the 12 yr olds that dont.

Knifenu

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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Weberm the fag writes in his signature:

>"Gay people, well, gay people are EVIL, evil right down to their
> cold black hearts which pump not blood like yours or mine, but
> rather a thick, vomitous oil that oozes through their rotten
> veins and clots in their pea-sized brains which becomes the
> cause of their nazi-esque patterns of violent behavior. Do
> you understand?"

I understand your a fag. Isnt time to change your worn out sig? I mean come on
do you really have to adverstise the fact your gay with every single post?

Knifenu
enough is enough you queer lil gimp

Alan D Kohler

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May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
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On 18 May 1998 22:31:08 GMT, kni...@aol.com (Knifenu) wrote:

>Any company who would do
>this is a company that doenst care about the game, but its bottom line. Gygax
>made TSR a powerhouse,

Gygax made TSR. It was creative minds like Moore and Grubb and Cook
that made it a powerhouse.

>Knifenu
>2nd Edition is crap..you know it, I know it...its the 12 yr olds that dont.

Gee, nice to know you speak for me.
NOT.
1st edition is dated and dusty, and it is time to move on... and it is
good to know some of us did.

And trust me, little man, I am not a 12 year old.

Pinochet

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May 18, 1998