Paladins in FR/Fantasy novels?
Brion Blackhawk
novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
lead character?
I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
There seems to be plenty of mages, rangers, barbarians, rogues, etc in
recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
appreciated.
Brion Blackhawk
Sea Wasp
>
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
>
> I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
Elizabeth Moon, _Deed of Paksenarrion_. That's the only one you'll ever
need.
But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy is
basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Steve Ewing
Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
news:393149...@wizvax.net...
Absolutely right about Paks. She's become my mental archetype of the breed,
and truly _is_ the only one you'll ever need. Well said.
Still, in the FR books, I guess Dragonbait from Curse of the Azure Bonds et
al. is the only one I can think of.
Fair warning: C.J. Cherryh's The Paladin is not about a Paladin. Certainly
Good fighters, but not Paladins.
Steve
Gerard
does not know it but, he is) this character always does the right
thing and most of the time ends up paid a heavy price for it. If you
want a good story about someone force to do whats right, force to
follow an unknown god even when he feels trapped and lost read, the
Threat from the Sea series. If your looking for a book of short
stories about a fanatic seeking justice in 17th century check out
Solomon Kane by R E Howard the same man who wrote the Conan series.
Gerard
On Sun, 28 May 2000 16:13:23 GMT, Brion Blackhawk
<virt...@blackhawk.com> wrote:
>Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
>novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
>lead character?
>
>I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
>Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
>Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
>Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
>traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
>Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
Gerard
honor try the DragonLance series books
Knights of the Sword
Knights of the Crown
Knights of the Rose
Rune Christensen
>Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
>novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
>lead character?
"Thornhold" by Elaine Cunningham, #16 in the (Forgotten Realms setting)
Harpers series, features a paladin as one of the main characters/main
antagonists at the same time (by being as dumb and subtle as a box of
rocks). Actually, given the damage that he does, I'd brand him a villan.
There's a whole knightly order of paladins involved in the book, actually.
Personally, I do not like "Thornhold" very much, certainly not as much as
Cunningham's other books.
Rune Christensen
Peter Knutsen
Brion Blackhawk wrote:
>
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
>
> I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
Holger the Dane as a paladin? That's kinda cute :-)
> There seems to be plenty of mages, rangers, barbarians, rogues, etc in
> recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
> appreciated.
Maybe that's because Paladins are rare, becaus the
ability score requirements are so serious.
Let's assume that Normal People use a straight 3d6 sequential
method for generating ability scores. Roll for STR, roll for
DEX, roll for CON, no re-rolls, no reasignments, if you're
unhappy with what you get, go kill yourself.
First, a long time ago somebody posted this very useful table in
news:rec.games.frp.gurps . The numbers are not 100% accurate,
but they're damn close, so I'll use them while writing this
posting, coz I'm too lazy to go search my harddrive for the
real and 100% scientific 3d6 result table.
The chance of rolling less than X is roughly
3 1/200
4 1/50
5 1/20
6 1/10
7 1/6
8 1/4
9 3/8
10 1/2
11 5/8
12 3/4
13 5/6
14 9/10
15 19/20
16 49/50
17 199/200
18 1/1
To quote from the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook.
Paladin requirements:
STR 12+
CON 9+
WIS 13+
CHA 17+
(INT and DEX are irrelevant)
Let's visualize the process as a person trying to jump over
four hedges, one at a time. One hedge is easy, two are hard,
one is very hard.
First the easy hedge, you must have CON 9 ot higher.
5/8 of the population will have this, in other words we
exclude 3/8 of the population. 0.625 of the population makes
the hop.
Next one of the hard hedges, STR 12 or higher. This excludes
3/4s of the population. Only 0.25 of the population are strong
enuff'.
Third jump is WIS 13, only 1/6 of the population are wise
enough. 0.167 makes the jump
Fourth jump is really hard. Only 1/200 of the population, or
0.005 will make the jump.
This means that only one person out of
1/(.625 * .25 * .167 * .005) = 7664.7
has what it takes to become a Paladin, ability score-wise.
If we further assume that only 1/10 of the people who has the
potential wants to use it, we get only one person out of
about 75 thousand becoming a Paladin.
Still, Paladins are certainly not close to being unique. Any
country with a suitable morality should have several Paladins,
maybe a dozen.
So why don't people write about them?
Maybe they're hard to write about?
Maybe they're dramatically uninteresting?
Maybe real authors refuse to write *D&D fiction?
[ducking]
> Brion Blackhawk
--
Peter Knutsen
SundanceKG
>Date: 5/28/00 12:13 PM Easte
>'m already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
>Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
>Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
>Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
>traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
>Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
Three Hearts and Three Lions is the book they took the Paladin class from...not
sure you knew that it was the original source material.
TH Whites Once and Future King is another book where..though a
satire....Lancelot is clearly a paladin and uses paladinic powers.
Most real writers tend not to use DnD archetypes. So if you want to read
stories of paladins, you get stuck with gaming fiction, and more often then
not, the writer does not know how to write a paladin.
Look at Ru Emerson's Against the Giants. The first part of that book was
good...but she took a story that takes place over 3 modules and puts them in 1
book. This could have been a series as big as the Dragonlance novels, and
indeed, if you played them all out, added in the sequals, its a saga worhty of
the ho hum DL books.
In this book her paladin Malowin is written very well....cept......its made
clear that he cannot FIGHT unless attacked. The guy stands there in front of a
giant and has to wait till the Giant swings on him@!!!! and Malowin worships
Heironeous!@!!!! My God!
Finally....remember that any character who is a good knight should be viewed as
paladinic, like Ivanhoe and Sturm, but since not all writers use fantasy or
paladins, then not all knights like Ivanhoe would be a paladin. Gawain was not
a paladin BTW.
Good luck and good reading.
>Brion Blackhawk
SundanceKG
>
> But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy is
>basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
>
I disagree...he was clearly a cleric.
Deykin ap Gwion
> > >
> > > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> > > lead character?
> > >
> > > Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> > > Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> > > Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> > > traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> > > Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
> >
> > need.
> >
> > basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
I'll second this. He's incredibly tortured about the
necessity of his partnering with the evilest, most vile
sunovabitch on the block. What a great Paladin.
> Absolutely right about Paks. She's become my mental archetype of the breed,
> and truly _is_ the only one you'll ever need. Well said.
I couldn't get through these books. Maybe I didn't stick
with it long enough, but I found the writing torturous. Oh,
and I suppose it didn't help that the novel very much felt
like a bad D&D campaign. LOts of money and magic flying
around, experience flowing in rivers.
*sigh* I must've bailed too soon?
<snip>
Deykin ap Gwion
Chris Hood
>Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
>novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
>lead character?
>
>I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
>Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
>Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
>Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
>traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
>Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
>There seems to be plenty of mages, rangers, barbarians, rogues, etc in
>recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
>appreciated.
>
>Brion Blackhawk
Try the Double Diamond Triangle Saga. It was 9 mini books (85 pages
each) that TSR put out a couple of years back, I believe. It had alot
of paladins in it.
Chris Hood
Sea Wasp
>
> Deykin ap Gwion (tig...@my-deja.what-do-you-think.com) howled at
> the moon:
>
> <The Deed of Paksenarion>
>
> >I couldn't get through these books. Maybe I didn't stick
> >with it long enough, but I found the writing torturous. Oh,
> >and I suppose it didn't help that the novel very much felt
> >like a bad D&D campaign. LOts of money and magic flying
> >around, experience flowing in rivers.
> >
> >*sigh* I must've bailed too soon?
>
> basically sucked a rat's pimpled ass. The third one was pretty good
> once the story picked up.
I liked all of them.
"Deed" is available as a single book -- that's how I own it.
I felt it got better with each book. Though I wouldn't wish Paks'
experiences with the Dark Elves on ANYONE.
Aaron F. Bourque
the moon:
<The Deed of Paksenarion>
>I couldn't get through these books. Maybe I didn't stick
>with it long enough, but I found the writing torturous. Oh,
>and I suppose it didn't help that the novel very much felt
>like a bad D&D campaign. LOts of money and magic flying
>around, experience flowing in rivers.
>
>*sigh* I must've bailed too soon?
The first book in the series was the best one. The second one
basically sucked a rat's pimpled ass. The third one was pretty good
once the story picked up.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Being grown up all the time is only a sign of immaturity.
Come on, people! Grow up! Act stupid!
Aaron F. Bourque
I'll let the actual text serve as spoiler space...
Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.net) howled at the moon:
>> The first book in the series was the best one. The second one
>> basically sucked a rat's pimpled ass. The third one was pretty good
>> once the story picked up.
>
> I liked all of them.
I didn't like the second one. I mean, it had no denoument! A novel's supposed
to have a friggin' DENOUMENT!!!!
> "Deed" is available as a single book -- that's how I own it.
I know. That's how I read it (actually, my sister had "Sheepfarmer's
Daughter," I read that, liked it, looked for the sequals, found the
omnibus edition, read it. Disliked the second book. Enjoyed the third
book. If the series would have been a doulogy instead of a trilogy, I
think I would have liked it better. There was so much stuff that
occurred in the second book that wasn't really relevant to the second
book.)
And that guy died. The farmer guy, who had a crush on Paks. He died.
That sucked. That was the only thing I didn't like about the first one.
> I felt it got better with each book. Though I wouldn't wish
>Paks' experiences with the Dark Elves on ANYONE.
Me neither, but I also wouldn't wish those evil priests on anyone, either.
But, yeah, Paks, as of then, was a PALADIN. Now that I know how to
play one, I WANT TO PLAY ONE!!!
Jeff Grubb
<virt...@blackhawk.com> wrote:
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
>
> I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
> There seems to be plenty of mages, rangers, barbarians, rogues, etc in
> recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
> appreciated.
>
> Brion Blackhawk
You already have Dragonbait. How about Priam Agrivar from the old AD&D
Comics (#1-4) and the Forgotten Realms Comic (#1-25)? (Agrivar also
appeared in a pair of stories in DRAGON, though I don't have the issue
#s).
Jeff Grubb
Alan Kohler
sea...@wizvax.net wrote:
> Brion Blackhawk wrote:
> >
> > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as
the
> > lead character?
> >
> > I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> > Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> > Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> > Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> > traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> > Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
you'll ever
> need.
>
> But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy
is
> basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
>
It's been a while since I read Dark Sun Rising, but wasn't he (the name
Damian Killcanon Vryce sticks out of my memory-- was that him?) more of
a "priest-by-title, mage-by-class". And the evil mage was undead, but a
demon? (Unless I missed something in the last 2 books I never read?)
--
Alan D. Kohler - Come visit Hawkwind's RPG Pages:
Land of Trinalia | Planescape | Fantasy Hero | Swashbuckling
Martial Arts | Starfarer SFRPG | Tesseracts in RPGs | And More!
http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/homepage.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert
> Comics (#1-4) and the Forgotten Realms Comic (#1-25)? (Agrivar also
> appeared in a pair of stories in DRAGON, though I don't have the issue
> #s).
My collection suddenly stops at the issue where Vartan is possessed by
Labelas Enoreth (right at the end), and Agrivar struck me as a fairly
shallow character up to that point. Did his character development actually
go anywhere eventually?
Sir Bob
P.S. Nih!
Deykin ap Gwion
>
> In article <393149...@wizvax.net>,
> sea...@wizvax.net wrote:
> > Brion Blackhawk wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as
> the
> > > lead character?
> > >
> > > I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> > > Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> > > Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> > > Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> > > traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> > > Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
> >
> > Elizabeth Moon, _Deed of Paksenarrion_. That's the only one
> you'll ever
> > need.
> >
> > But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy
> is
> > basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
> >
>
> It's been a while since I read Dark Sun Rising, but wasn't he (the name
> Damian Killcanon Vryce sticks out of my memory-- was that him?) more of
> a "priest-by-title, mage-by-class". And the evil mage was undead, but a
> demon? (Unless I missed something in the last 2 books I never read?)
Well, he was a priest. He was also a fighting man.
Evidence from the books indicates that his fighting man role
was primary.. that he was a one man troubleshooting team,
solving the church's problems with piety, strength, wit and
the sword... Oh, and he had some magics of 'divine'
origin. I'd call that a Paladin.
Deykin
Dave Harper
<tig...@my-deja.what-do-you-think.com> wrote:
>> Absolutely right about Paks. She's become my mental archetype of the breed,
>> and truly _is_ the only one you'll ever need. Well said.
>
>I couldn't get through these books. Maybe I didn't stick
>with it long enough, but I found the writing torturous. Oh,
>and I suppose it didn't help that the novel very much felt
>like a bad D&D campaign. LOts of money and magic flying
>around, experience flowing in rivers.
>
>*sigh* I must've bailed too soon?
I just read it on a friend's advice. It wasn't bad, but it
was far from the best fantasy I've read. It got to the point where I
was able to point out the AD&D rules behind the story, much like I
could tell that the latest "Midkemia/Krondor" books by Feist were
written based around a CRPG instead of as novels. The writing didn't
make me care about the main character, and I ended up never getting
that invested in the book.
That said, there were some extremely powerful scenes in the
book at times, and I liked the druids in the book. Overall, reading
the trilogy turned me off of paladins and Moon's fantasy, even though
I like her SF. She does great 'fleet' style SF, although she has this
-nasty- habit of making sure everybody gets their just rewards (and,
if redeemable, learns a valuable lesson about life from their elders,
not resenting them for the fact that they just suffered terribly
because of their own mistakes). I'd like her stories better if they
weren't quite as moral. She also skips past many of the scenes you'd
LIKE to be expanded on, leaving me wondering if I missed an important
scene somewhere.
IMO, it does portray a paladin extremely well, but it wasn't
an enjoyable read. Unsatisfying ending, poor writing, just overall
not to my taste. YMMV, though.
Dave
"What do you do? Spray everybody you meet?" -Paul
"No, it's not an odious personal habit. I just make people give me
all their money or die." -Parrish
Toby Mekelburg
Brion Blackhawk <virt...@blackhawk.com> wrote in message
news:39314393...@blackhawk.com...
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
Elaine Cunningham's Thornhold deals with good and not so good paladins.
--
Toby Mekelburg
mekelb...@hawaii.rr.com
http://www.lava.net/~toby
Anthony Pitman
Paladin character in it.
--
Anthony Eugene Kennedy Pitman
Moderator of WoT and Adndsource mailing lists
The AD&D Source http://members.xoom.com/dndsource/
"One Day we will be published"
Send All Flames or Inquiries to ederick...@yahoo.com
John Proulx
news:39314393...@blackhawk.com...
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
>
> Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
>
> recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
> appreciated.
>
I'm awfully surprised that no one's yet brought up Sir Sparhawk from the
Tamuli series by David Eddings. Heck, the series features four orders of
knights, many of whom could be considered Paladins.
John Proulx
Sea Wasp
>
> I just read it on a friend's advice. It wasn't bad, but it
> was far from the best fantasy I've read. It got to the point where I
> was able to point out the AD&D rules behind the story, much like I
> could tell that the latest "Midkemia/Krondor" books by Feist were
> written based around a CRPG instead of as novels. The writing didn't
> make me care about the main character, and I ended up never getting
> that invested in the book.
Note that she's not a gamer. She wrote the book because she was around
a bunch of people that were apparently munchkins -- playing these
"paladins" so very badly that she went out and wrote the book as a sort
of "No, you fools, THIS is how such a character would REALLY be like..."
SundanceKG
>Well, he was a priest. He was also a fighting man.
>Evidence from the books indicates that his fighting man role
>was primary.. that he was a one man troubleshooting team,
>solving the church's problems with piety, strength, wit and
>the sword... Oh, and he had some magics of 'divine'
>origin. I'd call that a Paladin.
>
MMmm nope. Clerics are direct servitors of a church. They are part of the
hieararchy and serve a God directly.
Paladins are independant servants of a God. That is, a cleric preaches the word
of God, a paladin listens. A paladin is no more obligated to a church then you
or I ( unlessyou are a priest etc lol). Look at Olgier, or Lancelot or Galahad.
While they were incredibly devote, none of them were ecclesiastical in anyway.
Vyrce on the other hand was clearly a cleric. He was part of the Church. His
abilities were trained in him by the Church. Was he a warrior? yes. But if you
read over the Cleric's true description, Clerics are supposed to be a cross
between a fighter and a spellcaster, which is what Vyrce was. The Clerics
description even says they are eqivalent to Knights Templar's etc.
So..Cleric = direct agent of a God...paladin= indirect agent of a God.
Sea Wasp
>
> >> > But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy is
> >> > basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
> >
> >necessity of his partnering with the evilest, most vile
> >sunovabitch on the block. What a great Paladin.
>
Major job, hitting things with swords. That's a fighter.
Fighter with special clerical abilities that sometimes worry the Church
-- sounds like a Paladin to me. His BEHAVIOR is also EXTREMELY like a
Paladin.
SundanceKG
>'m awfully surprised that no one's yet brought up Sir Sparhawk from the
>Tamuli series by David Eddings. Heck, the series features four orders of
>knights, many of whom could be considered Paladins.
>
I'd make them Crusaders, more then paladins. They are all quiet willing to deal
with evil characters within their own party. Heck according to American morals
etc Ehlana, Sparhawk's wife, would be considered LE.
SundanceKG
Sea Wasp
> >Evidence from the books indicates that his fighting man role
> >was primary.. that he was a one man troubleshooting team,
> >solving the church's problems with piety, strength, wit and
> >the sword... Oh, and he had some magics of 'divine'
> >origin. I'd call that a Paladin.
> >
>
> MMmm nope. Clerics are direct servitors of a church. They are part of the
> hieararchy and serve a God directly.
>
> Paladins are independant servants of a God. That is, a cleric preaches the word
> of God, a paladin listens. A paladin is no more obligated to a church then you
> or I
This is purely your INDIVIDUAL interpretation and not even supported by
all the literature references. The difference between a Paladin and a
Cleric is in my view that a Paladin is a Holy Warrior; his main job is
kicking ass and taking names, with some assistance from God, while the
Cleric isn't primarily, or even necessarily secondarily, a warrior.
( unlessyou are a priest etc lol). Look at Olgier, or Lancelot or
Galahad.
> While they were incredibly devote, none of them were ecclesiastical in anyway.
>
> Vyrce on the other hand was clearly a cleric. He was part of the Church. His
> abilities were trained in him by the Church. Was he a warrior? yes. But if you
> read over the Cleric's true description, Clerics are supposed to be a cross
> between a fighter and a spellcaster, which is what Vyrce was. The Clerics
> description even says they are eqivalent to Knights Templar's etc.
>
> So..Cleric = direct agent of a God...paladin= indirect agent of a God.
Actually this last line is even screwier.
The God chooses the Paladin, by your logic, and the Paladin has no
responsibility to the Church, only to the deity. So a cleric, by your
description, is an INDirect servant of God, through the church, while
the Paladin is the direct servant of God.
Steve Ewing
John Proulx <dew...@att.net> wrote in message
news:QfoY4.10042$793.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> I'm awfully surprised that no one's yet brought up Sir Sparhawk from the
> Tamuli series by David Eddings. Heck, the series features four orders of
> knights, many of whom could be considered Paladins.
>
> John Proulx
>
>
>
Doh! (slaps self)
Steve
Jason Hatter
(Steve Ewing) proclaimed <u4n#lTMy$GA.295@cpmsnbbsa09>:
>Still, in the FR books, I guess Dragonbait from Curse of the Azure
>Bonds et al. is the only one I can think of.
There is also Holly, from the Lost Gods books; paladin of Lathander
(tho the servant of Lathander, a phoenix, really was a dink....).
They (well, 2 of 'em) were also written by Jeff Grubb aand Kate
Novak....
>Fair warning: C.J. Cherryh's The Paladin is not about a Paladin.
>Certainly Good fighters, but not Paladins.
Not a D&D style paladin, but he certainly was an excellent example of
what he was...
--
Jason
ICQ#24332701
Sith Lords should learn to stay away from wells.
Sea Wasp
>
> >From: Sea Wasp sea...@wizvax.net
>
> > Major job, hitting things with swords. That's a fighter.
> >
> > Fighter with special clerical abilities that sometimes worry the Church
>
> >-- sounds like a Paladin to me. His BEHAVIOR is also EXTREMELY like a
> >Paladin.
>
> are doing their work.
>
> The guy was basically a flunky for the Church.
No. He was a troubleshooter for the Church -- someone who DIDN'T follow
the letter of Church law, but was nonetheless of their faith.
And he bent and broke other Church laws when he had to, because it was
The Right Thing To Do.
Paladins abhor evil...a true Paladin would
> have smote whats his name and fought the bigger bad guy alone. Or if I was God
> I'd hav revoked his Paladinhood instantly.
Then you're a stupid God who wants stupid Paladins.
I prefer ones who can think about the LARGER consequences of their
actions. Damien Vryce was a marvelous Paladin example.
SundanceKG
>Date: 5/29/00 8:44 AM Easter
> This is purely your INDIVIDUAL interpretation and not even supported by
>all the literature references. The difference between a Paladin and a
>Cleric is in my view that a Paladin is a Holy Warrior; his main job is
>kicking ass and taking names, with some assistance from God, while the
>Cleric isn't primarily, or even necessarily secondarily, a warrior.
You are very inccorrect. My view is supported by literature and legend. The
only clear cut paladins pre DnD are Lancelot, Galahad and Olgier the Dane, who
is the prototype for the DnD paladin. None of them....NONE of them had any ties
to a Church more then an ordinary man. They were just more devout and pure.
Secondly, the PHB has clearly...CLEARLY defined a cleric as part warrior. So
its your interpetations that are not accurate.
>
> ( unlessyou are a priest etc lol). Look at Olgier, or Lancelot or
>Galahad.
>> While they were incredibly devote, none of them were ecclesiastical in
>anyway.
>>
>> Vyrce on the other hand was clearly a cleric. He was part of the Church.
>His
>> abilities were trained in him by the Church. Was he a warrior? yes. But if
>you
>> read over the Cleric's true description, Clerics are supposed to be a cross
>> between a fighter and a spellcaster, which is what Vyrce was. The Clerics
>> description even says they are eqivalent to Knights Templar's etc.
>>
>> So..Cleric = direct agent of a God...paladin= indirect agent of a God.
>
> Actually this last line is even screwier.
>
> The God chooses the Paladin, by your logic, and the Paladin has no
>responsibility to the Church, only to the deity. So a cleric, by your
>description, is an INDirect servant of God, through the church, while
>the Paladin is the direct servant of God.
>
>
No. A Cleric talks to God and delivers his word directly to the people. A God
tells a Cleric to serve the poor. A God tells the VCleric to go tell the king
he is sinning.
A Paladin is granted his powers and can do what he wants with them as he wills,
so long as he stays pure, heroic and devout.
SundanceKG
> Major job, hitting things with swords. That's a fighter.
>
> Fighter with special clerical abilities that sometimes worry the Church
>-- sounds like a Paladin to me. His BEHAVIOR is also EXTREMELY like a
>Paladin.
Since when do chruches worry about Paladins? Paladins are proof that churches
are doing their work.
The guy was basically a flunky for the Church. That equals cleric. So he could
use a sword....Clerics of most Gods nowadays can use edges weapons etc. Big
deal.
Paladins don't go around casting spells like pez coming out a dispeneser. Vryce
did. Paladins are free agents when it comes to the Churches of the Gods they
worship Vyrce was no free agent. Paladins abhor evil...a true Paladin would
Alan Paris
the name but one of the main characters was actually an evil paladin
(anti-paladin if you prefer). I think the trilogy name had something about
'Rose' in it.
--
Alan Paris
alp...@hotmail.com
Alan Kohler <hawkw...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8gs9pp$btg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <393149...@wizvax.net>,
> sea...@wizvax.net wrote:
> > Brion Blackhawk wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as
> the
> > > lead character?
> > >
> > > I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> > > Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> > > Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> > > Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> > > traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> > > Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
> >
> > Elizabeth Moon, _Deed of Paksenarrion_. That's the only one
> you'll ever
> > need.
> >
> > But the one main character in CS Friedman's _Coldfire_ trilogy
> is
> > basically a paladin as well. Working with an evil vampire demonlord...
> >
>
> It's been a while since I read Dark Sun Rising, but wasn't he (the name
> Damian Killcanon Vryce sticks out of my memory-- was that him?) more of
> a "priest-by-title, mage-by-class". And the evil mage was undead, but a
> demon? (Unless I missed something in the last 2 books I never read?)
>
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
scott
<Jeste...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> Alan Paris wrote:
>
> > How about the Weiss-Hickmann Trilogy set in the desert...I can't remember
> > the name but one of the main characters was actually an evil paladin
> > (anti-paladin if you prefer). I think the trilogy name had something about
> > 'Rose' in it.
> Not sure... but I think it's 'Rose of the Prophets' or something like that...
Yes, I do believe that it was Rose of the Prophet. But I don't think
the evil paladin was a main character. Although he did play a large
part in the 2nd or 3rd novel. He was a great example of a LE paladin -
as ruthless as needed to accomplish his goal, but to his "brothers" he
was loyal and loving as they come.
Dragar Steelepoint
Master of the Blade
______________________________________________________________________
The World of Irial, The Grimoire Arcana, The World Shapers' Page, & My
AD&D Page at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1820/
"Putting the F U in FUN."
SundanceKG
>
> No. He was a troubleshooter for the Church -- someone who DIDN'T follow
>the letter of Church law, but was nonetheless of their faith.
He was still a Priest of the Church. Taken in, followed all their rules and
vows and all that. He was still part of the hierarchy.
Just an aside...
If anything, his relationships with Ciani and the navigator would have
disqualified him from being a paladin. Paladins must be pure and chaste of
heart.
> And he bent and broke other Church laws when he had to, because it was
>The Right Thing To Do.
Paladin's don't do that. A cleric can though.
>
> Then you're a stupid God who wants stupid Paladins.
>
> I prefer ones who can think about the LARGER consequences of their
>actions. Damien Vryce was a marvelous Paladin example.
>
I want heroes who don't compromise their principles. The end never justifies
the means. Period. Vryce is the perfect exmaple of what a cleric should be. Not
a paladin.
Aaron F. Bourque
>Paladins must be pure and chaste of heart.
Only if their religion says sex before marriage is a sin. If not, they can
go hog-wild! :)
SundanceKG
>nly if their religion says sex before marriage is a sin. If not, they can
>go hog-wild! :)
>
>Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
>
Its pretty clear this religion was based on the Roman Catholic one.
Deykin ap Gwion
>
> >From: Sea Wasp sea...@wizvax.net
>
> > Major job, hitting things with swords. That's a fighter.
> >
> > Fighter with special clerical abilities that sometimes worry the Church
>
> >-- sounds like a Paladin to me. His BEHAVIOR is also EXTREMELY like a
> >Paladin.
>
> Since when do chruches worry about Paladins? Paladins are proof that churches
> are doing their work.
Bull*#%$ Paladins are the most devout of all the
worshippers in a particular church. And as such, their
actions would ten to be more true to the intent and spirit
of any strictures of the church. As opposed to most of the
higher priests, whose appointments would be based more on
familial connections and politics. Thus, the church would
worry about Paladins. They are probably not, as I suppose
you would have it, created by the church. The hand of the
god creates a paladin.
> The guy was basically a flunky for the Church. That equals cleric. So he could
> use a sword....Clerics of most Gods nowadays can use edges weapons etc. Big
> deal.
Yeah. That must be why he was in deep trouble with the
Bishop from the moment the book began, and it only got
worse.
> Paladins don't go around casting spells like pez coming out a dispeneser. Vryce
> did.
Well, I suppose the author took some liberties with the
spell memorization rules. Oh wait, the author didn't *use*
D&D. The fact remains that he was primarily a *warrior* who
could cast primarily *SMALL* magics in support of his
missions.
> Paladins are free agents when it comes to the Churches of the Gods they
> worship Vyrce was no free agent.
He certainly was essentially a free agent.
> Paladins abhor evil...a true Paladin would
> have smote whats his name and fought the bigger bad guy alone.
Ah, a believer in the Lawful Good == Incredibly Retarded
school of thought. How many times did Vryce make it clear
that when he smote the baddest evil he was still going to
take down the vampire? About a million?
> Or if I was God
> I'd hav revoked his Paladinhood instantly.
Sure glad I don't play in your incredibly arbitrary game,
then.
Chad Lubrecht
> > And he bent and broke other Church laws when he had to, because it was
> >The Right Thing To Do.
>
> Paladin's don't do that. A cleric can though.
>
A Paladin doesn't necessarily have any connection to a church. He'll gladly
follow the
requests of higher-ups in the church hierarchy if they match his
interpretation of his God's
will, but he does it because that's the right thing to do, not because
they're his superiors
necessarily.
I see Paladins mostly as warriors of exceptional faith, chosen by their God
to be Paladins,
not by any church or order. So especially if a particular church is wavering
in its pursuits of
the God's interests a Paladin can be a scary thing for the resident High
Priest.
Doug
returning in comic or novel form? I do have the two short stories from
DRAGON and the FR novels with Jasmine.
Jeff Grubb <jgr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jgrubb-2805...@ip54.seattle14.wa.pub-ip.psi.net...
> In article <39314393...@blackhawk.com>, Brion Blackhawk
> <virt...@blackhawk.com> wrote:
>
> > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> > lead character?
> >
> > I'm already aware of the ones that were listed in the Complete
> > Paladin's Handbook, such as Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three
> > Lions novel, Novak and Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy, and the Sturm
> > Brightblade character in the DragonLance novels, as well as
> > traditional sources such as stories of Sir Galahad, Sir Gawaine,
> > Olgier the Dane, Ivanhoe, etc.
> >
> > There seems to be plenty of mages, rangers, barbarians, rogues, etc in
> > recent fantasy tales, but very few Paladins. Any help would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Brion Blackhawk
>
> You already have Dragonbait. How about Priam Agrivar from the old AD&D
> Comics (#1-4) and the Forgotten Realms Comic (#1-25)? (Agrivar also
> appeared in a pair of stories in DRAGON, though I don't have the issue
> #s).
>
> Jeff Grubb
Jeff Grubb
<dou...@fusespam.net> wrote:
> I loved the Forgotten Realms comic book. Any chance of the characters
> returning in comic or novel form? I do have the two short stories from
> DRAGON and the FR novels with Jasmine.
>
There are no current plans, but I have long since learned to never say never.
:)
Jeff G.
Patrick Lyons
interesting Paladin...he always does what he believes is right...no matter
who it hurts. For a justice god (like Tyr in FR), this could actually
work, and be quite interesting.
Zim
Comic published by DC comics a while back had a drunken, one handed paladin;
from what little I remember, he seemed to be an interesting character.
tz
Jason Hatter
<3941FA27...@rrt.net>:
>I don't have a lot of details, and it isn't exactly a novel, but
>the AD&D Comic published by DC comics a while back had a drunken,
>one handed paladin; from what little I remember, he seemed to be
>an interesting character.
Actually, Priam Agrivar wasn't one handed: both of his arms were
*withered* by a Staff of Withering, weilded by a powerful creature
called Imgig Zu (iirc; the creatures name may be wrong). Due to the
loss, he became an alcoholic. The alcoholism surfaced from time to
time in the storylines.
gill...@hotmail.com
> >I couldn't get through these books. Maybe I didn't stick
> >with it long enough, but I found the writing torturous. Oh,
> >and I suppose it didn't help that the novel very much felt
> >like a bad D&D campaign. LOts of money and magic flying
> >around, experience flowing in rivers.
> >
> >*sigh* I must've bailed too soon?
You MUST have been reading a different book than the one I read.
One of the things I loved about the Deed was the low-magic and
low-treasure world. Paks sees TWO magic swords in the first book,
and is given a healing potion ONCE. Canna gives her a holy symbol,
which may have magic power, or may just channel the gods' power. Later,
she gets a magic sword, a ring of animal control, and a whole heap of
treasure. It is so much treasure that she sends a great deal of it home
for her family. It fills two whole saddle bags. She runs into two mages
(Master Vetrifuge and the half-elf whose name I can't remember), and a
number of priests. That doesn't seem high-magic to me. My impression was
that Paks deals with more magic there than most ADVENTURERS would see in
their lives.
> I just read it on a friend's advice. It wasn't bad, but it
> was far from the best fantasy I've read. It got to the point where I
> was able to point out the AD&D rules behind the story, much like I
> could tell that the latest "Midkemia/Krondor" books by Feist were
> written based around a CRPG instead of as novels. The writing didn't
> make me care about the main character, and I ended up never getting
> that invested in the book.
> That said, there were some extremely powerful scenes in the
> book at times, and I liked the druids in the book. Overall, reading
> the trilogy turned me off of paladins and Moon's fantasy, even though
> I like her SF. She does great 'fleet' style SF, although she has this
> -nasty- habit of making sure everybody gets their just rewards (and,
> if redeemable, learns a valuable lesson about life from their elders,
> not resenting them for the fact that they just suffered terribly
> because of their own mistakes). I'd like her stories better if they
> weren't quite as moral. She also skips past many of the scenes you'd
> LIKE to be expanded on, leaving me wondering if I missed an important
> scene somewhere.
> IMO, it does portray a paladin extremely well, but it wasn't
> an enjoyable read. Unsatisfying ending, poor writing, just overall
> not to my taste. YMMV, though.
>
> Dave
>
It's funny - I love the Deed of Paksennarion, but find Moon's SF (except
for Once a Hero) rather superficial.
I thought the writing was clean, concise, very well-written and the
characterization was masterful. Oh, well, I guess that's why we need
lots of authors!
Gillian
>
> "No, it's not an odious personal habit. I just make people give me
> all their money or die." -Parrish
gill...@hotmail.com
Brion Blackhawk <virt...@blackhawk.com> wrote:
> Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> lead character?
How about the main character (Barak?)from "Oath of Swords" by David
Weber? He isn't a paladin at the beginning, but by the end he is
definitely an independent, stubborn, fighter for HIS GOD. I really liked
that book, and the sequel (By the sword?) was nearly as good
George Christie
Knight of the Word, and I'm assumming Angel Fire East by Terry Brooks all
contain a character who I would classify as roughly being a paladin.
I'm sure there will be lots of objections to that.
--
George Christie
bad...@netrover.com
"All of us do time in the darkness, dreamers learn to look at the stars"
Peart, 1989
Zim <z...@rrt.net> wrote in message news:3941FA27...@rrt.net...
> I don't have a lot of details, and it isn't exactly a novel, but the AD&D
> Comic published by DC comics a while back had a drunken, one handed
paladin;
> from what little I remember, he seemed to be an interesting character.
>
> tz
>
> Patrick Lyons wrote:
>
> > How about Galad in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. He would make
an
> > interesting Paladin...he always does what he believes is right...no
matter
> > who it hurts. For a justice god (like Tyr in FR), this could actually
> > work, and be quite interesting.
> >
> > Brion Blackhawk wrote:
> >
> > > Are there any Forgotten Realms novels, Greyhawk novels, or fantasy
> > > novels in general, that feature Paladin characters, preferably as the
> > > lead character?
> > >
Brock Cusick
What about Mercedes Lackey's "Heralds of Valdamar"? They don't have any shiny
armor but they seem to be Paladins to me (granted powers, magical war horse, god
enforced codex) .... they follow the credo of always do what's "Right" and must
be Chosen for service by a Holy Spirit.
Or how about Prosecuter McCoy from Law& Order? :)
Irda Ranger
Kelly Ross Pedersen
Brock Cusick wrote:
> What about Mercedes Lackey's "Heralds of Valdamar"? They don't have any shiny
> armor but they seem to be Paladins to me (granted powers, magical war horse, god
> enforced codex) .... they follow the credo of always do what's "Right" and must
> be Chosen for service by a Holy Spirit.
>
Hmm. Of course, one could argue that some of the Heralds aren't exactly Lawful Good.
Skif comes to mind, as he acted as an assassin during the war against Hardorn. In
general, the Heralds seem to have too wide a streak of pragmatism to exactly qualify
as paladins. And that "god-enforced" seems a mite tricky. After all, no one knows
exactly which god and/or gods sent the Companions. And the Companions seem quite a
bit more forgiving than the average god. No "one evil act and you're out". It takes
a _really_, _really_ bad thing to make a Companion repudate their Herald.
[snip]
--
I teleported home last night
with Ron and Sid and Meg.
Ron stole Meggy's heart away,
and I got Sidney's leg!
The Teleporting Song,
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Kelly Pedersen, Student, Megalomanic, and aspiring All-knowing Being
Kelly_p...@yahoo.com
Jason Hatter
(Brock Cusick) proclaimed <394573DF...@eden.rutgers.edu>:
>What about Mercedes Lackey's "Heralds of Valdamar"? They don't
>have any shiny armor but they seem to be Paladins to me (granted
>powers, magical war horse, god enforced codex) .... they follow
>the credo of always do what's "Right" and must be Chosen for
>service by a Holy Spirit.
Heralds don't have "granted powers". Heraldic powers are more along
the lines of psionic wild talents, present in varying degrees. They
also don't have a god enforced codex. The closest the gods come to
directly affecting the Heralds are the Companions...and even they
have limits.
Mad Hamish
>>From: Deykin ap Gwion tig...@my-deja.what-do-you-think.com
>
>>Well, he was a priest. He was also a fighting man.
>>Evidence from the books indicates that his fighting man role
>>was primary.. that he was a one man troubleshooting team,
>>solving the church's problems with piety, strength, wit and
>>the sword... Oh, and he had some magics of 'divine'
>>origin. I'd call that a Paladin.
>>
>
>MMmm nope. Clerics are direct servitors of a church. They are part of the
>hieararchy and serve a God directly.
>
>Paladins are independant servants of a God. That is, a cleric preaches the word
>of God, a paladin listens. A paladin is no more obligated to a church then you
>or I ( unlessyou are a priest etc lol).
Just a little quote from page 28 of the 2nd ed PHB "A paladin must
tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good
alignment he serves."
Suggests that a Paladin is in the service of a church to me...
> Look at Olgier, or Lancelot or Galahad.
>While they were incredibly devote, none of them were ecclesiastical in anyway.
depends on what arthurian legends you're reading.
>
>Vyrce on the other hand was clearly a cleric. He was part of the Church. His
>abilities were trained in him by the Church. Was he a warrior? yes. But if you
>read over the Cleric's true description, Clerics are supposed to be a cross
>between a fighter and a spellcaster, which is what Vyrce was. The Clerics
>description even says they are eqivalent to Knights Templar's etc.
>
>So..Cleric = direct agent of a God...paladin= indirect agent of a God.
Both are pretty direct. Both are given spells by a god...
Mad Hamish
>>From: Sea Wasp sea...@wizvax.net
>>Date: 5/29/00 8:44 AM Easter
>
>> This is purely your INDIVIDUAL interpretation and not even supported by
>
>>all the literature references. The difference between a Paladin and a
>>Cleric is in my view that a Paladin is a Holy Warrior; his main job is
>>kicking ass and taking names, with some assistance from God, while the
>>Cleric isn't primarily, or even necessarily secondarily, a warrior.
>
>You are very inccorrect. My view is supported by literature and legend. The
>only clear cut paladins pre DnD are Lancelot, Galahad and Olgier the Dane, who
>is the prototype for the DnD paladin.
Depends upon your definition of a clear-cut Paladin.
I'd say you could make a case for a few Greek heroes, some celtic
legends as well.
Also American legends have a few who could claim that status...
> None of them....NONE of them had any ties
>to a Church more then an ordinary man. They were just more devout and pure.
Based upon exactly what arthurian legends?
>
>Secondly, the PHB has clearly...CLEARLY defined a cleric as part warrior. So
>its your interpetations that are not accurate.
>
No, the PHB defines adventuring clerics as able to fight. Not all
clerics are adventurers...
>
>>
>> ( unlessyou are a priest etc lol). Look at Olgier, or Lancelot or
>>Galahad.
>>> While they were incredibly devote, none of them were ecclesiastical in
>>anyway.
>>>
>>> Vyrce on the other hand was clearly a cleric. He was part of the Church.
>>His
>>> abilities were trained in him by the Church. Was he a warrior? yes. But if
>>you
>>> read over the Cleric's true description, Clerics are supposed to be a cross
>>> between a fighter and a spellcaster, which is what Vyrce was. The Clerics
>>> description even says they are eqivalent to Knights Templar's etc.
>>>
>>> So..Cleric = direct agent of a God...paladin= indirect agent of a God.
>>
>> Actually this last line is even screwier.
>>
>> The God chooses the Paladin, by your logic, and the Paladin has no
>>responsibility to the Church, only to the deity. So a cleric, by your
>>description, is an INDirect servant of God, through the church, while
>>the Paladin is the direct servant of God.
>>
>>
>No. A Cleric talks to God and delivers his word directly to the people.
You reckon that a 1st level cleric gets instructions direct from his
God?
> A God
>tells a Cleric to serve the poor. A God tells the VCleric to go tell the king
>he is sinning.
>
>A Paladin is granted his powers and can do what he wants with them as he wills,
>so long as he stays pure, heroic and devout.
Again this is campaign world dependent.
Mad Hamish
>>From: "John Proulx" dew...@att.net
>
>>'m awfully surprised that no one's yet brought up Sir Sparhawk from the
>>Tamuli series by David Eddings. Heck, the series features four orders of
>>knights, many of whom could be considered Paladins.
>>
>
>I'd make them Crusaders, more then paladins. They are all quiet willing to deal
>with evil characters within their own party.
Exactly what evil characters in their own party?
> Heck according to American morals
>etc Ehlana, Sparhawk's wife, would be considered LE.
based on exactly what?
Jeriko
Mad Hamish <h_l...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:395a0279...@news.bigpond.com...
I'm not the original poster, but here are my .02 anyway.
Martel was a member of the Pandion order until he was caught trafficking
with evil gods and/or their avatars and casting/learning forbidden spells.
However, he was stripped of his order and would have been executed had he
not escaped once he was caught.
Therefore, the Pandions did "deal" with an evil character in their own
order; but not in the sense I believe the poster meant. I can think of no
other members of the 4 orders mentioned in the books that could have been
considered "evil". One of their members DID try to kill Sparhawk at the
direction of Annias/Zalasta/Azash, but ?intentionally? buffed every attempt,
and this was only because they held the woman he loved hostage.
The Church soldiers (Harapin, for example), as well as the church itself
(Annias, for example), had many corrupt members that were evil - but the
Knights were a separate group governed by separate rules.
I doubt very much that Ehlana could be considered LE. The only point is
that she was very willing to kill those who hurt those she loved. While she
talked about killing her cousin who usurped her throne while she was ill,
when it came right down to it, she did not do it. However, she accepted
that killing was a necessity if one were to rule. The only alternative was
to allow herself to be killed and/or her government overthrown.
I would consider Ehlana NG. She bent the rules when she wanted, and was
happy to have others bend/break them when she wanted -- and on the other
hand, she was a stickler for the rules when she wanted to be.
SundanceKG
>> Heck according to American morals
>>etc Ehlana, Sparhawk's wife, would be considered LE.
>
>based on exactly what?
>
Ehlana expressly orders the murder/assassination of the plotters against that
Emperor dude in the second series.
This is an Evil act. Why? According to American ideals and morals, all people
are innocent until proven guilty. Who gives Ehlana the right to judge someone
worthy of death? Just because she was born to a position? The series itself
shows the weakness of inherited titles.....
So what happens when Ehlana, or another ruler, a despot perhaps, decides to
execute his enemies, who might be LG?
The ends do not justify the means. Ehlana should, as a just ruler, had the
plotters rounded up, tried, and then executed. By taking the law and justice
into her own hands, she becomes no better then they are....thus she is evil.
Now..lets get rid of American ideals. The Elene God is pretty much very similar
to the Catholic God. ( This is not a forum for the Catholic church being good
or evil or God etc. We are assuming that the intent of the Church, both
Catholic and Elene is to promote a LG society).
The idea of these religions is that if you sin, you can repent and are
redeemed. By having these peoples assassinated, she commites murder, which is a
sin, and deprives them of a chance at redemption. Remember, many of them may
have been duped. That Emperor dude didn't seem to be a good ruler....Nowhere is
it stated that he truly was beloved. The revolutionaries may have had a real
beef, or they may have been conned. Thus, Ehlana commited an evil act.
Joel Robinson once wrote that a nation that does not use violence on its own
people will not stay in power. A nation that, without justice, that kills its
citizens willy nilly, is a tyranny. Ehlana IMHO is a tyrant.
Oh another thought....Sparhawk and company are Knights...Knights are supposed
to fairly meet their opponents in battle. Ehlana uses assassins etc.....not
very chivalrous.....thus if Knights = Good, Ehlana is not good there fore she
is Evil.
SundanceKG
>Depends upon your definition of a clear-cut Paladin.
>I'd say you could make a case for a few Greek heroes, some celtic
>legends as well.
>Also American legends have a few who could claim that status...
>
Because they were called paladins in legends and are the basis for the DnD
paladinic powers?
And the Greek heroes and American legends are not. They can be viewed as being
paladins,,,,but then so can Superman and he is not a paladin.
Have you read Paul Kidd's Justicar story in Dragon or the White Plume Mountain?
The Justicar acts like a paladin but is a Ranger. So just because someone acts
like a paladin does not mean he is one.
>Based upon exactly what arthurian legends?
Yup and the Olgier stories, as well as the 3 Hearts and 3 Lions book the
paladin class was directly taken from.
>No, the PHB defines adventuring clerics as able to fight. Not all
>clerics are adventurers...
Uhm nope...if your roll up a PHB cleric he is a part fighter. A PRIEST can be a
scholarly type who does not know one end of a mace from the other...but he
still has the thaco etc of a cleric.....thats something that should have been
addressed in 3e and wasn;t
>You reckon that a 1st level cleric gets instructions direct from his
>God?
>
Yup
SundanceKG
>Just a little quote from page 28 of the 2nd ed PHB "A paladin must
>tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good
>alignment he serves."
>Suggests that a Paladin is in the service of a church to me...
But he is not paid or provided for by the Church, whereas priests are. Paladins
are clearly just Knights who are super devout and holy. As per the legends.
>Both are pretty direct. Both are given spells by a god...
>
>
In the game they are. In the legends they are not.