[GREYHAWK] GH shafted again....
Public <Anonymous_Account>
When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
Clay
news:e2c909efd47d8834...@anon.xg.nu...
> Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
>
> When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
>
> Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
>
Who *cares*. Greyhawk is doing just fine. I like the fact that I Greyhawk
is basically a static snapshot of a world -- a world-framework -- rather
than the overblown
fit-everything-in-the-world-busting-at-the-seams-with-stuff-written-by-*ahem
*-professionals Faerun. Besides, I like the freedom of not having to
explain why my FR is different from the canon one to my more conceptually
moribund players.
I was pleased last week when one player finally piped up and asked "Where
*are* we, anyway?" having played in my game for several weeks and was just
coming to the conclusion that my Greyhawk bore very little semblance to what
he was expecting.
[And, yes, I know about Living Greyhawk. Whoopie.]
--
Clay
Rot13 --> pyn...@ubgznvy.pbz
Jeremy Reaban
Public wrote in message ...
>Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
>
>When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
>
>Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
I think they pretty much have.
But even so, why complain? At least there are new GH products. My two
favorite campaign settings, Birthright & Mystara, don't even get
articles in Dragon magazine anymore, let alone new products... (And
the new GH products aren't bad. Not like the abyssmal Castle of
Greyhawk comedy adventure, anyway....)
And what's worse, Mystara had a continually moving timeline/history,
and it just stopped. Many of the plot threads will never be resolved,
including some cliff-hangers. .
Zimri
news:992037242.417035@sj-nntpcache-5...
Living Greyhawk predates published Greyhawk...
--
-- Zimri
***********
"No adult human really knows anyplace. You have to crawl everywhere
you can crawl, lick anything interesting, trace all the smells to
their sources, listen to ants trooping across walls, and eat a few
spiders before you really know a place."
-- Corey the Cat ("All Too Familiar", J Robert King, Dragon #259)
Clay
>
> --
> -- Zimri
Bullpucky. Greyhawk predates Living Greyhawk by, oh, twenty years or so. I
was playing in Greyhawk with the old Eldritch Wizardry book, if I care to
date myself. That's like pre-hardback. Remember the white box? That was in
Greyhawk, although the setting wasn't "published" with maps-n-stuff till a
few years later. Still have that box, too.
But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you really meant to
say something else.
Mad Hamish
so figure out the endings...
Trevor Barrie
Public <an4...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
No, they should have made D&D the game of The Known World (or Mystara,
if you must).
Greyhawk is okay, but as far as I'm concerned you can't call your
product "Dungeons and Dragons" if you're not going to include a map
of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos.
Ian R Malcomson
>Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
>
>When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
>
>Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
It's not a game of Greyhawk or the Realms - they're just settings for
those who don't have enough time to create their own setting, or who
want to play in a setting that a number of people around the world also
play in (common ground and all that). If they'd released 3E as "the
game of Greyhawk", I'd be as equally miffed as if they'd released it as
"the game of the Realms".
--
Ian R Malcomson
Erstwhile Domicus bloke
Domicus website: http://www.domicus.demon.co.uk
ProFantasy Freelancer: http://www.profantasy.com
John Simpson
wrote:
>Living Greyhawk predates published Greyhawk...
How's that again?
--
Peace,
John Simpson
Real username's in the URL
http://home.earthlink.net/~silverjohn
If someone asks if you're a god, say "Yes."
If someone asks if you're Sarah Conner, say "No."
Zimri
news:ro74it8psr9cjc4mo...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:49:56 GMT, "Zimri" <zim...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Living Greyhawk predates published Greyhawk...
>
> How's that again?
Greyhawk evolved from Gygax's "Castle and Crusade Society" gaming
group in the '70's and already had a backstory behind it when the
gazetteers came out.
My way of saying that the growth of Greyhawk was an organic process,
and that Living Greyhawk is its truest expression.
tuffnoogies
If you mean that they should have made FR the default setting like
they did GH, I totally agree.
What's the point of making GH the default setting if you're just gonna
hand it over to someone else to develop?
If you mean that they should tie FR and D&D together so that it's a
pain in the ass to play any other setting, you're dead wrong.
tuffnoogies
SilentKG
>No, they should have made D&D the game of The Known World (or Mystara,
>if you must).
>
>Greyhawk is okay, but as far as I'm concerned you can't call your
>product "Dungeons and Dragons" if you're not going to include a map
>of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos.
>
DnD has always been "set" in Greyhawk...This Mystara world wa spun off into
Basic Dungeons and Dragons while GH was spun off into Advanced Dungeons and
Dragons. Those were 2 entirely different games, because I believe it was Dave
Arneson who held the rights to the name Dungeons and Dragons, and now has only
recently allowed the real name to be used for the game again.
SilentKG
>It's not a game of Greyhawk or the Realms - they're just settings for
>those who don't have enough time to create their own setting, or who
>want to play in a setting that a number of people around the world also
>play in
Thats the point....FR is being supported on a larger scale then GH aorund the
world. What was the point of releasing the game based around GH if they were
going to only give it shoddy support?
(I personally think DnD should not have had any GH references made at all)
On the flip side...FR is getting a ton of support, and the quality of the work
is much better.
SilentKG
>
>Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
>
>When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
>
>Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
>
>
This is very interesting...the above statement was made by me on an AOL chat
board. I did not post it on here and only know have noticed it.
Allister Huggins
<snip>
> On the flip side...FR is getting a ton of support, and the quality of the work
> is much better.
Well, when the LGG was released, many people praised it (except for the
Art) so it isn't true that the one GH release has been crappy. There has
also been the various class books and modules that have tidbits of GH
lore (similar to 1E where many D&D products mentioned GH references).
Allister H.
Jeremy Reaban
SilentKG wrote in message
<20010611172451...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
<snip>
>DnD has always been "set" in Greyhawk...This Mystara world wa spun
off into
>Basic Dungeons and Dragons while GH was spun off into Advanced
Dungeons and
>Dragons. Those were 2 entirely different games, because I believe it
was Dave
>Arneson who held the rights to the name Dungeons and Dragons, and now
has only
>recently allowed the real name to be used for the game again.
I dunno. From what I've seen of the original books, original D&D
wasn't set in anything specific at first, but 1 book came out for each
Greyhawk & Blackmoor, based on Gygaxes (Greyhawk) and Blackmoor
(Arneson)'s campaigns.
The only thing really setting specific in AD&D, is the artifacts and
the names of some of the spells.
Blackmoor was later added to Mystara, but Mystara isn't part of
Blackmoor...
SilentKG
>
> Well, when the LGG was released, many people praised it (except for the
>Art) so it isn't true that the one GH release has been crappy.
Who praised it? Everyone I knew who looked at it said it was crappy. The game
store where I DM still has the copy it got in when the thing was released !
Jay A. Hafner, D.C.
magazine PLUS
you've got up to 128 modules per year released in Living Greyhawk format.
That's hardly support or getting shafted.
Personally, I'd love to see the Gazetteer released in Hardback form though.
------
Jay A. Hafner,
RPGA Living Greyhawk Triad Oligarch #3, County of Urnst, Mountain States:
CO/WY/NM/MT
http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/ (Living Greyhawk Web Page for County of
Urnst)
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/countyofurnst (All RPGA'ers from the Mountain
States MUST read!!!)
Clay
> >Art) so it isn't true that the one GH release has been crappy.
>
> Who praised it? Everyone I knew who looked at it said it was crappy. The
game
> store where I DM still has the copy it got in when the thing was released
!
Exactly *what* is crappy about it?
SilentKG
>There are 20 new modules per year set in Greyhawk that are released in
>DUNGEON
>magazine PLUS
>you've got up to 128 modules per year released in Living Greyhawk format.
What Living Greyhawk modules? I have not seen these sold in the gamestores.
As for the GH modules...well yes, Dungeon publishes them. They also publish FR
modules too.
SilentKG
>
>Exactly *what* is crappy about it?
>
I found it to be poorly written, presented material that was contrary to what
had previously been written about GH, was inconsistent with previous material.,
it was very very very dry and boring to read, the art was lame, and pretty
much....if you had bought the GH material that came out the year before, or
owned the GH material from the 80's, you didn't need this material.
The FR book has alot to attract someone to it, even if they owned the previous
FR stuff. The GH did nothing to attract people to the world, much less present
itself as a must have to GHophiles. IMHO
Clay
Fair enough. I just wanted to know what you thought.
Allister Huggins
Um, www.rpg.net, Eric Noah's board, this newsgroup, the GH list, the
D&D list. Hell, people on the FR list were hoping that the FRCS was as
good a deal as the LGG.
Allister H.
SilentKG
>
> Um, www.rpg.net, Eric Noah's board, this newsgroup, the GH list, the
>D&D list. Hell, people on the FR list were hoping that the FRCS was as
>good a deal as the LGG.
>
>Allister H.
Interesting. Ah well. All I can say my personal views, those of my fellow
gamers and the area where I game disagreed.
Ian R Malcomson
>What Living Greyhawk modules? I have not seen these sold in the gamestores.
You get them via the RPGA. In addition, by joining the RPGA you get
issues of the Living Greyhawk Journal which, thus far, has been very
interesting.
SilentKG
>You get them via the RPGA. In addition, by joining the RPGA you get
>issues of the Living Greyhawk Journal which, thus far, has been very
>interesting.
I am a member of the RPGA. I have not gotten anything resembling hundreds of LG
modules. I don't think the material has been all that good. each to his own.
Jay Hafner, D.C.
thinks that Erik Mona "presented material that was contrary to what had
previously been written about GH." Let's just call him non-canon
Iquander. Heh! That get's funnier everytime I think about it. Go
ahead and post that info about Erik Mona to GREYTALK..I dare you.
It's hard to spice up an encyclopedia. Did you find the Origina GH
Boxed Set to be pretty interesting then?
As for the 2E stuff from the year before, you're sourly mistaken. TAB
gave literally ZERO information about the countries of the Flanaess and
only deadends about the history. The Players Guide gave racial ability
bonuses to humans for crying out loud. The only thing that Roger Moore
did that was worth any merit was that he gave references to his work in
the sidebars..which is only of use to people who worrry about that snot.
The Gazetteer is better than the Greyhawk Folio. It's better than the
Boxed Set. It's better than FtA. It's also better than the City of
Greyhawk boxed set. Yup. It's got more useful information than any of
it's predecessors, creates and atmosphere conducive to campaigning, and
is in an easy-to-reference format. The map is accurate and aesthetic
(the paper sucks though).
The FR book is clearly supreme in it's format and content, and the GH
book would be great if it were this. Problem is, we're lucky that GH is
alive at all and had better suck it up and promote sales of the
Gazetteer, or we'll NEVER see a hardbound greyhawk book.
Jay Hafner
Hong Ooi
You may be thinking of the original Greyhawk Gazetteer, which was released
shortly after the 3E PHB, not the LGG. The original was rather overpriced
IMO for what you got.
--
Hong Ooi | "Know where the Roman legionaries
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | learned to use the gladius from?
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | Gladiators."
Canberra, Australia | -- B.
SilentKG
>Date: 6/14/01 1:00 AM Eastern
>The Gazetteer is better than the Greyhawk Folio. It's better than the
>Boxed Set. It's better than FtA. It's also better than the City of
>Greyhawk boxed set.
All the LGG has is a rewritten hash of the previous works done!
To say that its better then preivious works and to say that its better then the
GH city boxed city is ridiculous. As I stated before..if you had the previous
GH materials, then you had no need to buy the LGG.
I don't own a copy of the LGG and no store around has it in stock, so I cannot
cite where the information is thats was changed. Off the top of my head....that
the longsword is now being favored by Heironeous. The blurb I read states that
its to get the attention of common soldiers as well as knights and
paladins...Yeah right.
>Problem is, we're lucky that GH is
>alive at all and had better suck it up and promote sales of the
>Gazetteer, or we'll NEVER see a hardbound greyhawk book.
>
>Jay Hafner
In a free market, the best products win out. If the GH materials are not
selling, that tells you something about their quality. If people BUY inferior
products, then there is no reason to improve.
SilentKG
>You may be thinking of the original Greyhawk Gazetteer, which was released
>shortly after the 3E PHB, not the LGG. The original was rather overpriced
>IMO for what you got.
Nope, I did get the GG. I looked over the LGG and even with my whopping
discount I decided not to buy the LGG.
Ian R Malcomson
>All the LGG has is a rewritten hash of the previous works done!
Not so. Although the LGG follows the lines of the old boxed sets, it
greatly expands information. For example, reference the Bandit Kingdoms
entry - six pages of information. Where have the Great Lands of Reyhu
been described before?
>To say that its better then preivious works and to say that its better then the
>GH city boxed city is ridiculous. As I stated before..if you had the previous
>GH materials, then you had no need to buy the LGG.
The GH City set was pure cartoon. Virtually anything under the Greyhawk
banner is better than that (with the obvious exception of Child's Play,
Gargoyle, and Puppets, of course).
If you have the previous GH materials, of course you have no need to buy
the LGG, in the same way as if you had the old '83 boxed set, you had no
need to buy FtA. Each of the three ('83 set, FtA, LGG) covers the same
material, but each expands upon it, updates timelines, and so on.
"Need", in terms of RPG products, is irrelevant. "Would be a useful
addition" is true.
>I don't own a copy of the LGG and no store around has it in stock, so I cannot
>cite where the information is thats was changed. Off the top of my head....that
>the longsword is now being favored by Heironeous. The blurb I read states that
>its to get the attention of common soldiers as well as knights and
>paladins...Yeah right.
What's wrong with that? He's a deity of war. "Worshippers of
Hieroneous are found everywhere, but particularly where those who follow
military professions or do heroic deeds are found...". Under 1st Ed.,
clerics of Hieroneous had no special favour towards battleaxes, except
as symbols of their god. Under 2nd, they could take longsword, but had
to take battleaxe first. Now we have a further development dealing with
a section of his worshippers Hieroneous felt were being left out because
of the battleaxe thing. Development of faith - something that happens
all the time.
>>Problem is, we're lucky that GH is
>>alive at all and had better suck it up and promote sales of the
>>Gazetteer, or we'll NEVER see a hardbound greyhawk book.
>In a free market, the best products win out. If the GH materials are not
>selling, that tells you something about their quality. If people BUY inferior
>products, then there is no reason to improve.
In a specialised market, such as RPGs, this does not apply. People
don't buy product from a specialised market just on quality - they go on
labels, too. (Come to think of it, people go for labels in just about
everything). Case in point that GH players are in a minority, so every
sale the LGG gets counts towards the decisions WotC may have to make in
the future as to whether to continue support for the setting.
Ian R Malcomson
>I am a member of the RPGA. I have not gotten anything resembling hundreds of LG
>modules.
Check out the RPGA details - you can order LG tournament modules.
There's a lot of LG tournaments going on...
>I don't think the material has been all that good. each to his own.
Indeed.
Thomas Harrison
sile...@aol.com (SilentKG) wrote:
> >From: "Jay Hafner, D.C." JAYH...@USWEST.NET
> >Date: 6/14/01 1:00 AM Eastern
>
> >The Gazetteer is better than the Greyhawk Folio. It's better than the
> >Boxed Set. It's better than FtA. It's also better than the City of
> >Greyhawk boxed set.
>
> All the LGG has is a rewritten hash of the previous works done!
>
> To say that its better then preivious works and to say that its better
> then the
> GH city boxed city is ridiculous. As I stated before..if you had the
> previous
> GH materials, then you had no need to buy the LGG.
Actually, the information on the Baklunish states has been greatly
expanded so as to make them playable in the lIving Campaign, so you are
going to see a lot of new stuff here. Also, I'd argue that many of the
regions, like Keoland and the Bandit Kingdoms, have been supped up as
well. There *is* plenty of new material and the best part is it
completely jives with the old stuff. So would say you're wrong on this
note.
>
> I don't own a copy of the LGG and no store around has it in stock, so I
> cannot
> cite where the information is thats was changed. Off the top of my
> head....that
> the longsword is now being favored by Heironeous. The blurb I read states
> that
> its to get the attention of common soldiers as well as knights and
> paladins...Yeah right.
I don't recall this passage. It sounds straight out of the PHB. Since
Greyhawk and the PHB are supposed to be on the same page, this was
probably done to appease the masters at WotC (::grumble::), but then I
don't recall the particular passage.
>
>
>
> >Problem is, we're lucky that GH is
> >alive at all and had better suck it up and promote sales of the
> >Gazetteer, or we'll NEVER see a hardbound greyhawk book.
> >
> >Jay Hafner
>
> In a free market, the best products win out. If the GH materials are not
> selling, that tells you something about their quality. If people BUY
> inferior
> products, then there is no reason to improve.
Actually, if the response to the Living Campaign is any indication,
Greyhawk is getting a great deal of attention.
Also, inferior product is pretty subjective here. While it doesn't have
all the bells and whistles of the FR book, I think the LGG is pretty
solid. It accomplishes all the goals set for it: re-establish the
setting, make all the nations playable, solidify the history, be
consistent with previous accepted canon works. Now if the idea had been
to provide a ton of prestige classes, feats, high powered npcs, and nice
glossy colored art then yes, it would have failed. That wasn't the
point.
Tom
Aaron Day
have the folio (from when I was a kid), GH Adventures and GH Wars. What other
books should be on my wish list of GH products? Modules too.
Aaron
Ian R Malcomson
>I'm starting a campaign on short notice next week and want to use Greyhawk. I
>have the folio (from when I was a kid), GH Adventures and GH Wars. What other
>books should be on my wish list of GH products? Modules too.
Here's my "star rating list" of GH product. * = bad, ** = okay, *** =
great. Note that this is personally subjective :-)
Modules that are purely source have a (s) prefix. Ask if you want me to
provide a short review of anything on the list.
Greyhawk Folio **
World of Greyhawk Campaign Set ('83) ***
From the Ashes ***
The Adventure Begins **
Greyhawk Player's Guide **
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer ***
D&D Gazetteer *
Greyhawk Adventures ***
City of Greyhawk ** (too cartoon-esque)
Greyhawk Wars **
A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity ***
A2 Secret of the Slavers Stockade **
A3 Assault on the Aerie of the Slavelords ***
A4 In the Dungeons of the Slavelords ***
A1-4 (collected of above) ***
C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan **
C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness **
D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth **
D2 Shrine of the Kuo-toa **
D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (collected of above) ***
D3 Vault of the Drow ***
EX1 Dungeonland **
EX2 Land Beyond the Magic Mirror **
G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief **
G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl **
G3 Halls of the Fire Giant King **
G1-3 Against the Giants (collected of above) ***
I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City **
L1 Secret of Bone Hill ***
L2 The Assassin's Knot ***
L3 Deep Dwarven Delve *
N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God ***
Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits **
S1 Tomb of Horrors **
S2 White Plume Mountain **
S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks **
S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth ***
S1-4 Realms of Horror (collected of above) ***
T1 Village of Hommlet **
T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil (includes above) ***
U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh **
U2 Danger at Dunwater ***
U3 The Final Enemy ***
UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave **
UK2 Sentinel ***
UK3 Gauntlet **
WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun ***
WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure **
WG6 Isle of the Ape **
WG7 Castle Greyhawk * (except for humour value)
WG8 Fate of Istus **
WG9 Gargoyle *
WG10 Child's Play *
WG11 Puppets *
WG12 Valley of the Mage ***
WGA1 Falcon's Revenge **
WGA2 Falconmaster ***
WGA3 Flames of the Falcon **
WGA4 Vecna Lives! ***
WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins ***
WGR2 Treasures of Greyhawk **
WGR3 Rary the Traitor *
(s) WGR4 The Marklands ***
(s) WGR5 Iuz the Evil ***
WGR6 City of Skulls **
(s) WGR7 Ivid the Undying (web-published) **
Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff **
Die, Vecna, Die **
The Fright at Tristor **
Return to the Keep on the Borderland **
Return to the Tomb of Horrors ***
Return to White Plume Mountain **
Slavers ***
Vecna Reborn **
John Peralta
I have to disagree here. I recommend you actually read the book before you
bash it. I own all the previous supplements and I love my copy of the LGG.
> In a free market, the best products win out. If the GH materials are not
> selling, that tells you something about their quality.
By that definition people buy Back Street Boys, and N'Sync, and Pokemon
because they are of superior quality. Nonsense. There is no accounting for
taste. People go with what is trendy nothing more.
John Peralta
John Peralta
most of these you will never find. Some are so out of print that your only
hope is to find them on eBay for 500% above list price. It is a good list to
have though, so I thank Ian for providing it.
As far as your campaign is concerned I suggest you but the following:
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
The Scarlet Brotherhood (which I think was missing from Ian's list)
Slavers
Keep in mind that you already have enough to start. Many would pay a lot of
money for what you own.
John Peralta
Aaron Day
>
> Modules that are purely source have a (s) prefix. Ask if you want me to
> provide a short review of anything on the list.
> From the Ashes ***
I keep hearing about this. What is it?
> WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins ***
This thing is super-high on ebay. Is it really the original GH dungeon?
Aaron
Ian R Malcomson
>> From the Ashes ***
>I keep hearing about this. What is it?
It was a re-working of the old '83 boxed set, to update the setting to
post-Greyhawk Wars and 2nd Ed. AD&D. Instead of Guide and Glossography,
it provided an Atlas of the Flanaess (basically, an updated Guide), and
a campaign book devoted to the area surrounding Greyhawk City itself
(with attendant poster map). Much of the information from the
Glossography was reproduced on cards, and further cards provided "Book
of Lairs"-style short adventures.
>> WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins ***
>This thing is super-high on ebay. Is it really the original GH dungeon?
I don't know how close it is (or isn't) to Gygax's original (probably
not very), but it does cover the dungeons of Zagyg's castle, including
portal links to Dungeonland (as hinted at in the EX1/EX2 series).
Steve
> Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
>
> When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
>
> Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
Well I get even with them by not buying any FR stuff at all.
Personally I despise the setting. I do not like high fantasy games
very much and as such avoid FR at almost all costs.
If you don't like it, let them know by hitting them where it hurts in
the balance sheet.
Steve
SilentKG
>Date: 6/14/01 11:25 AM Ea
>There *is* plenty of new material and the best part is it
>completely jives with the old stuff. So would say you're wrong on this
>note.
>
I also said the new stuff wasn't that good. The book is poorly presented and
not very well written. One of themajor complaints about the LGG is that its dry
and boring.
>> its to get the attention of common soldiers as well as knights and
>> paladins...Yeah right.
>
>I don't recall this passage. It sounds straight out of the PHB.
Its in the LGG
<big snip>
Right. My original point is that GH was given a shoddily made paperback book,
which was not of the quality...both presentation and work wise, of the FR book.
If Wotc is goung to push FR alot more then GH, what is the point of making GH
thedefault world?
If Joe Gamer starts playing DnD and looks at LGG or looks at FR, which book do
you think he will pick? The one that looks good, and has the names of famous
game desisgners, great art, etc etc, or the paperback book written by who? with
lousy art....
Which book got a party to push it?
As you said yourself..the book just rewrites what was previosly (sp) done. It
adds material to some areas, which is nice.
Looking at the FR...one can see what could have veen done. I am not a fan of
FR...its too high magic with too many high powered NPc's. But Gh...its dying a
slow death.
SilentKG
>I have to disagree here. I recommend you actually read the book before you
>bash it. I own all the previous supplements and I love my copy of the LGG.
I looked through it...found it very dry and hard to get into. I remember at the
time reading some of the entries and disagreeing with what was said..not sure
what country.....It comes down to a matter of taste, but the point of this is
that FR is getting better quality works done for it andmore support while GH is
getting shafted.
>By that definition people buy Back Street Boys, and N'Sync, and Pokemon
>because they are of superior quality. Nonsense. There is no accounting for
>taste. People go with what is trendy nothing more.
People still drink Coca Cole and Pepsi, but you rarely see RC. People still
listen to the Beatles, and prolly will 100 years from now, but not BsB or
NSync. In the long run the better products win.
Jay Hafner, D.C.
understanding of just how much information has been added new to the
LGG. Every kingdom has been updated with current history. Every god
has been updated and all details are up to date with tons of new
material. All fantastic locations have completely new material. etc.
etc. etc.
I'll still recommend it.
Remember why we got rid of 2E? Because it was 24 books you had to carry
around that all conflicted with each other.
Greyhawk was kind of like that prior to LGG.
Jay H
SilentKG
>If you don't own the product you probably don't have a great
>understanding of just how much information has been added new to the
>LGG.
I don't have to own the book to know its not very good. How many times must I
repeat myself.
When it came out I sat downand started reading through it. After I got bored, I
put it down and came back and tried reading it. I read several kingdom notes (
noting some changes which made no sense...one kingdom now hasa
constitution..what thehell? ) and the rest of the book was also dry and poorly
done. I spent at least 2-3 hours looking at. Not enough to read all of it...but
enough to see that the book is not worth owning
Go back and read my other post...the threads name is GH got shafted. FR got a
better made, better written book with a mush better send off then GH. Thats the
point I am making.
Allister Huggins
>
> >From: "Jay Hafner, D.C." JAYH...@USWEST.NET
> >Date: 6/15/01 8:57 PM Eastern
>
> >If you don't own the product you probably don't have a great
> >understanding of just how much information has been added new to the
> >LGG.
>
> I don't have to own the book to know its not very good. How many times must I
> repeat myself.
Um, let me put it this way. Your impressions of the book from simply
browsing through it for a few minutes is so.
> When it came out I sat downand started reading through it. After I got bored, I
> put it down and came back and tried reading it. I read several kingdom notes (
> noting some changes which made no sense...one kingdom now hasa
> constitution..what thehell? ) and the rest of the book was also dry and poorly
Um, given that the GH-list and greytalk have both praised the book for
its accuracy, chances are you are most likely wrong.
> done. I spent at least 2-3 hours looking at. Not enough to read all of it...but
> enough to see that the book is not worth owning
>
> Go back and read my other post...the threads name is GH got shafted. FR got a
> better made, better written book with a mush better send off then GH. Thats the
> point I am making.
The point people are trying to tell you is the fact that you are wrong
in this respect. Um, given that the format for both the LGG and the FRCS
regions are exactly the same, I can't see how one can say that the LGG
was poorly done.
Allister H.
krystal_blade
> >Well..when the GH book came out it....came out.
> >
> >When the FR book gets out they are having a celebration.
> >
> >Who is fooling who....they should have just made D&D the game of FR.
>
> those who don't have enough time to create their own setting, or who
> want to play in a setting that a number of people around the world also
> play in (common ground and all that). If they'd released 3E as "the
> game of Greyhawk", I'd be as equally miffed as if they'd released it as
> "the game of the Realms".
I don't see the problem. Forgotten Realms is basically for DM's (not
a slam, mind you) who either don't have the time, or the inclination
of developing a campaign world, a campaign, adventures, dungeons,
etc... While DM's CAN if they chose to, it is unneccesary. Forgotten
realms is wholly mapped, explored, and published. So if you have
cash, but no time, FR should be your choice. They're is a lot of
cheering when TSR publishes something because FR is (by numerical
popularity, not the LEVEL of devotion) the most popular, and the
cheers are louder.
Greyhawk is for DM's who want a world with an overview, a few NPC's,
and maybe a couple of things to look over to get them started on
creating, and populating their OWN towns. Towns and cities in
Greyhawk are not designed to be living, breathing entities. They're
designed almost to provide a point of reference on maps. So, if your
a DM with little cash, and time/inclination, Greyhawk should be your
choice. It offers you the freedom to fill in an essentially "blank"
world, and change it to suit your taste. There aren't as many cheers
for Greyhawk stuff, because numerically it's not as popular as FR.
And, many Greyhawk fans ALREADY have everything they feel they need.
For the DM's who want to do everything (few left) on their own, just
using the rules is enough for them. The only cheers you hear from
them is when a good module/adventure is published, which they will use
for informaiton when making their own. Or, when they've successfully
made a posterboard map of their world, WITHOUT spilling any coffee on
it (And creating the mysterious "Island chain" on the north or south
end of the map)
Not trying to slam anyone's preferences here. I like Planescape.
kb
SilentKG
>From: Allister Huggins alhu...@home.com
>
> Um, given that the GH-list and greytalk have both praised the book for
>its accuracy, chances are you are most likely wrong.
>
Of course they are going to like it....most of them are probablyr did the work
themselves or are friends of the people who did.>The point people are trying to
tell you is the fact that you are wrong
>in this respect. Um, given that the format for both the LGG and the FRCS
>regions are exactly the same, I can't see how one can say that the LGG
>was poorly done.
I cannot be wrong with an opinion.
However, do you have the sales data for the LGG? How did it do? Like I
said...the one copy the local gaming store got is till on the shelves.
Almost every one of the local gamers I know....about 40 some people...all told
me they didn't think the book was worth getting. About 4 of those actually sat
down like I did and read through,m and 3 of them are Greyhawkers. And they came
away with the distinct impression that I did....
In other words, if you had the previous work, especially the stuff done in the
year or 2 before, you didn't need LGG. And for newbies...if you had the choice
between LGG and FR...which would you choose? the boring, poorly illustrated
softcover, or the exciting, well written well drawn hardcover?
Jay Hafner, D.C.
> you think he will pick? The one that looks good, and has the names of famous
> game desisgners, great art, etc etc, or the paperback book written by who? with
> lousy art....
>
you ever noticed
how CHEAP gamers are? If you've read many posts here, you'll come to
realize that joe-gamer
tends to be a cheapass and will NOT buy the FR handbook sheerly for the
price. If they do
drop the couple bucks for the LG book, you can bet that they'll be
bitching about that too.
A gamer can pick up the D&D Gazetteer for what? 9 bucks? 63 Pesos?
10000 canadian?
On authors, only Gary and Ed count. The other guys are unlikely to draw
anyone of any substantial number.
The maps for both products were on the same cheapass paper (made by
cheap ass gamers evidently), so there's no comparison there.
I still wish it(LGG) would be released in hardback though.
Jay Hafner
Jay Hafner, D.C.
> Almost every one of the local gamers I know....about 40 some people...all told
> me they didn't think the book was worth getting. About 4 of those actually sat
> down like I did and read through,m and 3 of them are Greyhawkers. And they came
How many of them play in the Living Greyhawk campaign?
Should a Greyhawker own more inferior products, such as the Boxed Set,
Folio, or City of Greyhawk Boxed Set instead?
jay H
SilentKG
>Ha ha ha! Not that I don't agree with you on the basic points, but have
>you ever noticed
>how CHEAP gamers are?
IN your area maybe. Not here.
SilentKG
>How many of them play in the Living Greyhawk campaign?
>
Its my understanding that LG is for powergaming munchkins.
>
>Should a Greyhawker own more inferior products, such as the Boxed Set,
>Folio, or City of Greyhawk Boxed Set instead?
IMHO these products were great...much better then the LGG.
Hmm let me see....did you by any chance do any work on the LGG?
Jay Hafner, D.C.
the World of Greyhawk an that's why Gygax put the statistics for the
Gods in the Boxed Set and in the follow-up series in Dragon Magazine, as
well as the sheer amount of magical items in adventures like Temple of
Elemental Evil, White Plume Mountain, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Isle of
the Ape, Mordenkainen's fantastic Adventure, For. Temple of Tharizdun,
ET AL.
But, that's not the case in LIVING GREYHAWK, so let me put that RUMOR to
rest. LG is not a powergaming munchkins wet dream, and if you've ever
talked to anyone who plays it (I happen to be on the Living Greyhawk
Triad for Colorado, New Mexico, Montana, and Wyoming so I talk to people
frequently).
Jay Hafner, D.C.
> >
Sorry, I accidently sent the message without finishing it.
Living Greyhawk is the most balanced of any campaign I've ever seen.
The rules and guidelines for treasure distribution are based strictly on
3E rules from the DMG. That means, that most people playing will be 2nd
level before they even own a potion of healing and probably 4th before
they even get a sword +1. There are also upkeep costs per adventure
that allow a player to be as 'poor' as he wants to be (up to 200 gp per
adventure for lifestyle). What people were expecting was that this
campaign would fail because it's not Froggy Realms, or that it would be
a high-magic powergaming campaign. It's not. It's incredibly well
balanced for such a huge campaign and is growing so fast that the RPGA
is unsure what to make of it.
> > Hmm let me see....did you by any chance do any work on the LGG?
Have I written in the LGG. No. But, I'm among the few people who stood
up for GH when it was a dead world by contributing things that Erik Mona
(and the other guys you would know if you helped revive GH in the 90's)
would later need for the excellent up-to-date GH product still in print,
the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. If you were on AOL or GREYTALK in the
GH-dead years, or ever visited "The Citadel," you know who you are!
You'd be surprised where you'll find the names of us who helped revive
GREYHAWK...look in your 2E modules and Dragon articles...
Anyway. The LGG is a great book and worth owning. It should have been
a hardback though (agreed). I'm glad they left out the MUNCHKIN racial
stuff that earlier appeared in the Players Guide to Greyhawk..and
appeared in the FOR REalms manual under 'playing gods.'
"Jay" A. Hafner
RPGA Living Greyhawk _County of Urnst_ Triad Oligarch #3 (CO, WY, NM,
MT)
www.cyface.com/countyofurnst
www.yahoogroups.com/group/countyofurnst
Teach a kid to play RPG's or the hobby will die with us.
.
Jay Hafner, D.C.
price of D&D products, or the fact that 'they're constantly barraged
with new material that's been done before (e.g. fighter's handbook)?"
They never say 'oh, it's not worth the money' to buy stuff? (I'm not
trying to be a smartass).
This list, especially seems rife with gamers who can afford $32/month
DSL internet access, but can't afford the Players Handbook and other
stuff.
SilentKG wrote:
> >you ever noticed
> >how CHEAP gamers are?
>
> IN your area maybe. Not here.
--
Jay A. Hafner
RPGA Living Greyhawk County of Urnst Triad Oligarch #3 (CO, WY, NM, MT)
Jay Hafner, D.C.
Which would be a better buy of In-Print material for a 14 year old
kid-DM starting in Greyhawk?
1. The D&D Gazetteer
2. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Should he get the Living Greyhawk Journal subscription?
Should he get a Dungeon subscription or just wing it?
jayh
SilentKG
>But, that's not the case in LIVING GREYHAWK, so let me put that RUMOR to
>rest. LG is not a powergaming munchkins wet dream, and if you've ever
>talked to anyone who plays it (I happen to be on the Living Greyhawk
>Triad for Colorado, New Mexico, Montana, and Wyoming so I talk to people
>frequently).
>
::shrugs:: I know alot of local gamers, and no one plays LG. The people online
who do are the ones who told me is powergamer munchking.
SilentKG
>Which would be a better buy of In-Print material for a 14 year old
>kid-DM starting in Greyhawk?
>1. The D&D Gazetteer
>2. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Neither. I'd tell him to goto Ebay or Treasure Trove or Dragon's trove or
Hitpointe and get the older Gh stuff.
>
>Should he get the Living Greyhawk Journal subscription?
>Should he get a Dungeon subscription or just wing it?
>
Dungeon has good stuff. I'd tell him to avoid the RPGA....biggest waste of 30
bucks I ever made.
Jay Hafner, D.C.
> Dungeon has good stuff. I'd tell him to avoid the RPGA....biggest waste of 30
> bucks I ever made.
Is it because you don't convention game? I really didn't find the RPGA
to have any value until I started convention gaming about 10 years ago.
Now, there's a lot of value outside of that even: you get 6 issues of
Polyhedron (Forgotten Realms based) and 6 issues of the Living Greyhawk
Journal, plus a free module (this year it was "Fright at Tristor", a
Living Greyhawk Module), access to the RPGA adventure library for
endless home games, etc. BTW, the RPGA is free as a Fellowship Member.
I guess it's called the Role Play Gamers 'association' because it's for
people who 'associate.' I've been a member since '86, and until I went
to my first con in '92, I didn't understand what it was all about.
I too like Dungeon adventures. I think it's the best investment I've
ever made (along with Dragon magazine..heck, I can sell them on EBAY for
a couple hundred bucks a piece ;) The 3E Dungeons have been
particularly good (although the recommended selection of skill-checks is
kind of shallow).
Jay Hafner, D.C.
SilentKG wrote:
>
> ::shrugs:: I know alot of local gamers, and no one plays LG. The people online
> who do are the ones who told me is powergamer munchking.
Too bad. It's a kickass campaign (if your local Triad is putting out
any kind of decent modules). We've been filling our quota and people
have been coming in droves to the local game days and game conventions,
and a lot of friendships and home groups have grown from it. See our
adventure list: http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/play/scenarios.html
Check and see who your local triad (the three guys/gals in your area who
are making the campaign work) is and where your local discussion occurs
at:
http://wizards.com/rpga/LG/main.asp?x=lg/regions_north
If your local triad sucks and there isn't much going on, email them and
give them hell. If you're still an RPGA member, get the most out of your
membership.
jayh
--
Jay A. Hafner, D.C.
Peter Seebach
Jay Hafner, D.C. <JAYH...@USWEST.NET> wrote:
>Explain. You mean that gamers in your area never complain about the
>price of D&D products, or the fact that 'they're constantly barraged
>with new material that's been done before (e.g. fighter's handbook)?"
None of the ones I know do. We buy some books, we don't buy others, we
get along just fine.
>They never say 'oh, it's not worth the money' to buy stuff? (I'm not
>trying to be a smartass).
They do that all the time, but then, they decide to go to cheap restaurants
sometimes instead of expensive ones, or they get a computer that costs
less than $3-4k.
>This list, especially seems rife with gamers who can afford $32/month
>DSL internet access, but can't afford the Players Handbook and other
>stuff.
Yup. Well, you gotta have your priorities.
-s
--
Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
+--- Need quality network services, server-grade computers, or a shell? ---+
v C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! v
Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
SilentKG
>If your local triad sucks and there isn't much going on, email them and
>give them hell. If you're still an RPGA member, get the most out of your
>membership.
>
>jayh
>
Exactly....I've emailed the local triad numerous times and never got an answer.
Stéphane Tanguay
> Which would be a better buy of In-Print material for a 14 year old
> kid-DM starting in Greyhawk?
> 1. The D&D Gazetteer
> 2. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Definitively the first. The second is for hardcore fans of GH.
> Should he get the Living Greyhawk Journal subscription?
No. Too much specialized information for a young starting DM, not worth the
money in his case.
> Should he get a Dungeon subscription or just wing it?
This might be a good idea.
--
Stéphane Tanguay
stanguay arrobas mhonline.net
Stéphane Tanguay
> > Um, given that the GH-list and greytalk have both praised the book for
> >its accuracy, chances are you are most likely wrong.
> >
> Of course they are going to like it....most of them are probablyr did the
work
> themselves or are friends of the people who did.
Well, considering there is at least 500 subscribers on Greytalk alone, I
guess they can't all know the designers :-)
> However, do you have the sales data for the LGG? How did it do? Like I
> said...the one copy the local gaming store got is till on the shelves.
Sales data don't indicate, most of the time, the quality of a product but
mostly the size of the market for a particular item. Titanic may have made a
lot of money but that doesn't make it a "quality" movie.
> Almost every one of the local gamers I know....about 40 some people...all
told
> me they didn't think the book was worth getting. About 4 of those actually
sat
> down like I did and read through,m and 3 of them are Greyhawkers. And they
came
> away with the distinct impression that I did....
I'm actually surprised but hey, I can't verify :-) I might be that all the
people in your area cater to the same kind of product, of which clearly the
LGG is not part of.
> In other words, if you had the previous work, especially the stuff done in
the
> year or 2 before, you didn't need LGG.
In this, you are right. You don't need it, it's just a useful addition and
if you're not deeply involved in GH, I can certainly understand why you
would not want to buy the LGG.
>And for newbies...if you had the choice
> between LGG and FR...which would you choose? the boring, poorly
illustrated
> softcover, or the exciting, well written well drawn hardcover?
Again, you are right. The LGG as no appeal at all for the newbie,
particulary the one who likes stats, new feats, new prestiges classes and
the like. The illustration inside are not top quality; in fact, one of the
illustrators never got an other contract from WOTC...It's clear that the
design fo the FR book is far, far more superior, more exciting but, in my
case, it is the content that interest me.
Now, to get back to the root, you're right also in saying that GH is shafted
again. The very idea of putting GH as the core world could have been a good
idea if it was correctly and fully implemented. Unfortunately, this is not
the case. Designers of third editon have mangled GH in many areas and the
usefullness of it doesn't go beyond names and locales. If they had, at the
very least, put the generic modules in GH locales, like the first edition
modules, they might have gain the votes of a few fans but they decided
differently.
sigh
Later
Jay A. Hafner, D.C.
JayH
--
------
Jay A. Hafner
RPGA Living Greyhawk Triad Oligarch #3, County of Urnst, Mountain States:
CO/WY/NM/MT
http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/ (Living Greyhawk Web Page for County of
Urnst)
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/countyofurnst (All RPGA'ers from the Mountain
States MUST read!!!)
Jeff Wilder
| Who's your local triad? I'll give them hell.
Mine, too. Theocracy of the Pale.
It strikes me as bizarre that my Triad is based in Reno, as opposed to
somewhere in the Bay Area, but what're you gonna do?
Jeff
Mike McKeown
codex of greyhawk and www.nyrdyv.com, and the atlas of Greyhawk web
site. You might print some of the materials from those sites.
Mike
SilentKG
>
>Who's your local triad? I'll give them hell.
>
>JayH
I'm in the Geoff region....
Maryland is the state.
Justin Bacon
>kid-DM starting in Greyhawk?
>1. The D&D Gazetteer
>2. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Assuming he can afford it, the LGG. Heck, even if he can't -- he'd be better
off waiting until he *can* and picking up the LGG.
The D&D Gazetteer is, quite frankly, a waste of pesos when you've got teh LGG
on the market. I keep meaning to double-check it to see whether or not there's
any material in there which would preclude it from acting as a player's guide
to Greyhawk. If there is, then the D&D Gazetteer should simply be passed over.
If there isn't, then the players in a Greyhawk campaign might want to check it
out. (Assuming the DM doesn't make a lot of substantive changes to the
setting.)
>Should he get the Living Greyhawk Journal subscription?
>Should he get a Dungeon subscription or just wing it?
I find that prepackaged modules tend to be good for beginners -- not only
because they reduce the amount of prep time necessary to actually play, but
also because they give concrete examples of what your own adventures should
eventually look like.
I'd suggest THE SUNLESS CITADEL, FORGE OF FURY, and a subscription to DUNGEON.
(Those two specific modules because they're very good, location-based
adventures which can serve as the foundation of a new campaign. THIEVES IN THE
FOREST, from Atlas Games, would be another good choice.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Jay Hafner, D.C.
in nearly a year?
http://theocracy.oerth.com/
Here's your format for recourse:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThePale/messages
If you post there, you will have EVERYONE looking at your post and the
triad will be forced to do one of two things:
1. Get going on some stuff.
2. consider leaving the campaign in the hands of someone more capable
Now, there's a complication with your region. The guys there are nice
to the person in charge of their webpage, probably too nice...
Try posting your concerns on the YAHOOGROUP, and if you don't get any
response on the Yahoogroup, email the following
person:
Communications Director: Cheryl Llewellyn che...@arnak.com
Good Luck! If you don't get any luck on the YAHOOGROUP, or by emailing
the CHERYL LLEWELLYN, get back to me.
Jay H
Jay Hafner, D.C.
that they've had some mega games involving the giants already. We've
had players flying all the way out to Jersey to play in them because
it's so popular.
If you want to voice your opinion, get on the YAHOOGROUP. Everything
you post will be read by over 100 people. If you have valid concerns,
the Triad will be forced to listen:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/living-geoff
Your regional website is excellent and is at:
http://www.rpgageoff.com/
Jeff Wilder
[ Living Greyhawk info on the Pale. ]
Thank you, Jay. I appreciate it.
Jeff