Fresh Phantasmal Force Ideas?
Kevin Erickson
Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
Thanks!
Kevin
Phase
From the things you mentioned that you're tired of, it sounds
like you are already making the spell more powerful.
Try being subtle. Have yourself hidden, and make illusionary movement
at where someone's peripheal vision would just catch it. When they
turn and look, nothing is there (but keep the spell going! Have a
ghost hide behind the chracter's back, just where they _know_ something
is there, but they can't get a solid look at it.)
Be aware of the spell's limitations: fixed area of effect, the caster
can't move and keep the spell going, no sound effects, no temperature
effects, psuedo-forces may require something visible to carry the force,
etc.
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>Thanks!
>Kevin
The Amorphous Mass
> I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
> Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
> anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
My transmuter once created an illusion of morning light and fresh
spring air pouring into a cave, which brought the Bogey Man to his knees
(long story). She has also created an illusion of ice-cold frost
spilling from her fingertips and enveloping a demon (functioned as a
Hold spell for as long as she concentrated on it). I have cast or seen
of boulders, false walls (to hide behind), a frost giant appearing over
a hill (while being chased by fire giants -- distracted them just long
enough for us to get away), and an illusion of the caster as a vampire
(makes Charm spells really effective!).
Illusions are immensely powerful. The best way I can think of them as
a sort of Wish spell -- you just think about what you wish you could do
in this situation, and cast an illusion to try doing it.
----------------
The Amorphous Mass (james-r...@uiowa.edu)
aka Hyacinth, elven ambassador to the Human Islands
Geof Gilmore
>
> I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
> Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
> anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>
> KevinI've seen it used by a mage whose party was being pursued in a dungeon.
The set a torch in a sconce down a hall, hide in the darkness, and used
phantasmal force to make it appear as if the party (one member carring a
torch) just ran around the corner. The pursuing orcs only saw a brief
glimps -not enough to second guess. The chased after the illusion (or
at least down a corridor with many side passages. The pcs doubled back
and left the dungeon. Pretty clever actually, had they tried to flee
down those corridors they would have gone deeper and become lost.
DM Witted
Lance Dooly
How about a nice yawning chasm opening up in front of you?
That'll slow down most things that are charging for you. Then let the
fighters pepper them with arrows while they run around the chasm.
I've always thought the lack of heat and sound make phantasmal force fireballs
kinda obvious to your foes.
Lance
Mr. Mad
>
> I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
> Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
> anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>
> Thanks!
> Kevin
I once used the spell to make a female NPC look like a male one.
(Just long enough to freak out the player, sorry - long story)
_
/ \//\ Mr. Mad http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0 mailto:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////
\M / "A regrettable if understandable line of inquiry." --Unknown on the
\/ subject of the Carnivorous Flying Giant Space Hamster ((c) '92 TSR)
Tyverian
writes:
>I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
>Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
>anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>
>Thanks!
>Kevin
>
>
>
List Mode:
Big Loaded Balista pointing at the enemy (has to be cast in advance
before you are discovered)
Can simulate 'Mirror Image' for the rest of your party, as long as you
stand and concentrate and don't do any other action.
Remember: You can do many distracting/defensive things while
maintaining your 'invisibility' spell, as long as you don't actually
'attack' with it. (The Mirror Image idea above)
A wall of scilintating colors for your foes knowledgable in spellcraft.
(If you study and get it right they'll think it's a prismatic wall and
won't
touch it.)
Naked elven dancing girls. (sure to be a distraction for those male
foes.)
(Registered trade mark spell of one gnome entertainer, Ja'ron Rameriz.)
Disguise that murky poisoned well as a pool of clean clear water.
(A Spectral force may actually hide the taste as well, depending
on your DM.)
Illusionary men in full plate armor, standing at attention with halberds
ready. (may deter an attack, be sure to mentioned that you are NOT
making them all look alike, a few differences here and there works
wonders, they aren't moving so there's no sound problem :)
A vague formless creeping black mass of tentcles and ooze.
(Most humanoids will try to avoid it, if bring it into existance
before their eyes be sure to be properly spectaular: "I summon
the almighty Jublix, lord of the formless ones, bane of light,
devourer of souls." accompanied by a black flash.)
-is more effective as a spectral force, so you can add sucking
sounds and brimstone smell, but you've gotta use what ya got.
Distraction, distraction, distraction!!!! An Illusion of your party
running away, you then come out of hiding and fall upon them
from behind.
An Illusion of an open door when it is really closed, the guard
comes running.....SLAM....broken nose. (you superimpose
an image of the outside over the door.)
etc, etc, etc..............
Compliments of Ja'ron Rameriz, Master swordgnome and Imagecrafter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tyverian Starstone, AKA. Thomaerik, Servant of Mystery,
AKA. Tath Voraan, AKA. Nathaniel Colathurn,
AKA. Argent the WiLd MaGe, AKA.Sholim Spirithealer,
AKA. Ja'ron Rameriz AKA. Daniel Vitti.
Multiple Personality Disorder is a Wonderous thing.
Tyve...@aol.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D.G. Larush
if it's "legal". Basically, I've got a race of gnomes who've all got the
natural power to cast a 2D illusion (as per the Cantrip in Unearthed Arcana).
Can these gnomes stretch a net between two trees, create the illusion
(from the PC's side) that the net isn't there, and then use it to snare
PC's who charge in? (Particularly if Taunt-ed, as per the PHB spell?)
David
The Amorphous Mass
No. Illusion spells cannot mimic invisibility. They could make it
look like fog, a wall or fence, a mass of cobwebs, etc. but they could
not make it look like it wasn't there.
Cisco Lopez-Fresquet
DGL> Here's something I was planning on using for a module and I'm wondering
DGL> if it's "legal". Basically, I've got a race of gnomes who've all got the
DGL> natural power to cast a 2D illusion (as per the Cantrip in Unearthed Arcana).
DGL> Can these gnomes stretch a net between two trees, create the illusion
DGL> (from the PC's side) that the net isn't there, and then use it to snare
DGL> PC's who charge in? (Particularly if Taunt-ed, as per the PHB spell?)
DGL> David
You cannot create an illusion of invisibility. I believe this is
specifically stated in the Player's Handbook section on adjucating
illusions.
- cisco
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ci...@src.honeywell.com lope...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there were these two cows, chatting over the fence between their fields.
The first cow said, "I tell you, this mad-cow-disease is really pretty
scary. They say it is spreading fast; I heard it hit some cows down on
the Johnson Farm."
The other cow replies, "Hell, I ain't worried, it don't affect us ducks."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rameses Niblick the third
If they saw a chasm suddenly appear, they would think it was obvious,
and easily disbelieve it.
Phase
>If they saw a chasm suddenly appear, they would think it was obvious,
>and easily disbelieve it.
there wasn't a thunderous waterfall nearby, I would agree with you.
But ya got to remember, in a world full of magic, not everything
is obvious. A brick wall out of nowhere _could_ be real.
It really irked me, that whenever I had my illusionist turn invisible
right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
teleported elsewhere.
Geof Gilmore
>
> Rameses Niblick the third <bija...@freenet.hut.fi> writes:
>
> >If they saw a chasm suddenly appear, they would think it was obvious,
> >and easily disbelieve it.
>
> If an earthquake or avalanche or cave collapse wasn't going on, or
> there wasn't a thunderous waterfall nearby, I would agree with you.
>
> But ya got to remember, in a world full of magic, not everything
> is obvious. A brick wall out of nowhere _could_ be real.
>
> It really irked me, that whenever I had my illusionist turn invisible
> right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
> invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
> teleported elsewhere.
Standard operating procedure [SOP]: Opponent vanishes before your eyes.
Assume he is invisible. Invisibility is much more common (lower level)
than teleport. If the opponent did teleport you waist a few rounds
swinging at the air. I the opponent did not teleport but went invisible
now you at least have a chance to hit at -4.
DM Witted
Geof Gilmore
>
> The Amorphous Mass (robi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu) wrote:
> <example snipped>
> : No. Illusion spells cannot mimic invisibility. They could make it
> : look like fog, a wall or fence, a mass of cobwebs, etc. but they could
> : not make it look like it wasn't there.
>
> of the net over where the net is, thereby concealing the net?
>
> In this case, i'd say yes...
>
> JasonBy this method you are actually using an illusion to camoflage (sp) the
net. A camoflaged net is very different from one that is transparent
(invisible). There is a greater chance of noticing the net. I would
allow a normal save without the need to disbelieve.
DM Witted
Geof Gilmore
Ouch! That last one is wicked! I like it.. Wait 'til my players....
Kevin Dill
>I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
>Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
>anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>Thanks!
>Kevin
We once used a Spectral Forces spell (similar to Phantasmal Force) to
help cloak our party when travelling through a dangerous ravine.
Although we could only move at half speed (while my wizard
concentrated), it still helped us to escape through some dangerous
territory.
Kevin Dill
Jason Hatter
The Amorphous Mass
The gnomes can only cast 2D illusions, per the original poster.
Maintaining the illusion of proper perspective WRT a half-dozen
rapidly-moving characters would be a _real_ pain, if it's even possible.
Phase
:> right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
:> invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
:> teleported elsewhere.
:Standard operating procedure [SOP]: Opponent vanishes before your eyes.
:Assume he is invisible. Invisibility is much more common (lower level)
:than teleport. If the opponent did teleport you waist a few rounds
:swinging at the air. I the opponent did not teleport but went invisible
:now you at least have a chance to hit at -4.
us players who know how powerful and common spells are without theatrics.
But what does an orc know?
I'm willing to wager that in typical fantasy fiction wizards are more
prone to dissappear and reappear elsewhere (even if illusionary) than
turn invisible. Most people would probably rather think of a wizard
dissappearing than turning invisible, because it's less threatening.
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Tyverian
<ggil...@airmail.net> writes:
>> It really irked me, that whenever I had my illusionist turn invisible
>> right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
>> invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
>> teleported elsewhere.
>
>Standard operating procedure [SOP]: Opponent vanishes before your eyes.
>Assume he is invisible. Invisibility is much more common (lower level)
>than teleport. If the opponent did teleport you waist a few rounds
>swinging at the air. I the opponent did not teleport but went invisible
>now you at least have a chance to hit at -4.
>
>DM Witted
Only if the mage is still in melee range, if the mage turned invisible
and ran a few yards away and stays out of sword-swing-range
you have NO chance to hit him. (Unless he traps himself in a
dead end or something.) The only time you have the chance
to hit him would be if he is stupid enough to try to attack,
use touch spells, etc...... i.e. melee combat.
Or if he starts chanting a spell and you can find him by sound
before he finishes. ......... :)
Tyverian
<ggil...@airmail.net> writes:
>> An Illusion of an open door when it is really closed, the guard
>> comes running.....SLAM....broken nose. (you superimpose
>> an image of the outside over the door.)
>
>Ouch! That last one is wicked! I like it.. Wait 'til my players....
>
>
>
Well, I can't really take credit, Wile Coyote tried this all the time.
Geof Gilmore
>
> :> It really irked me, that whenever I had my illusionist turn invisible
> :> right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
> :> invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
> :> teleported elsewhere.
>
> :Standard operating procedure [SOP]: Opponent vanishes before your eyes.
> :Assume he is invisible. Invisibility is much more common (lower level)
> :than teleport. If the opponent did teleport you waist a few rounds
> :swinging at the air. I the opponent did not teleport but went invisible
> :now you at least have a chance to hit at -4.
>
> us players who know how powerful and common spells are without theatrics.
> But what does an orc know?
>
> I'm willing to wager that in typical fantasy fiction wizards are more
> prone to dissappear and reappear elsewhere (even if illusionary) than
> turn invisible. Most people would probably rather think of a wizard
> dissappearing than turning invisible, because it's less threatening.
I was speaking from an entirely game mechanic stand point. From a role
play stand point - any reaction is possible. People/creatures could
attack, flee, bow down and worship...you get my point. Using game
mechanics is how I describe IMO "the procedure to attempt".
DM Witted
Geof Gilmore
>
> In article <317459...@airmail.net>, Geof Gilmore
> <ggil...@airmail.net> writes:
>
> >> It really irked me, that whenever I had my illusionist turn invisible
> >> right in front of an opponent, they would _always_ assume I turned
> >> invisible and act accordingly, rather than think I _may_ have just
> >> teleported elsewhere.
> >
> >Standard operating procedure [SOP]: Opponent vanishes before your eyes.
> >Assume he is invisible. Invisibility is much more common (lower level)
> >than teleport. If the opponent did teleport you waist a few rounds
> >swinging at the air. I the opponent did not teleport but went invisible
> >now you at least have a chance to hit at -4.
> >
>
> Only if the mage is still in melee range, if the mage turned invisible
> and ran a few yards away and stays out of sword-swing-range
> you have NO chance to hit him. (Unless he traps himself in a
> dead end or something.) The only time you have the chance
> to hit him would be if he is stupid enough to try to attack,
> use touch spells, etc...... i.e. melee combat.
>
> Or if he starts chanting a spell and you can find him by sound
> before he finishes. ......... :)
order to make my point in reguards to the original post. :)
DM Witted :)
Henrik Nordhus
pursuiting monsters? I know PF doesn't have sound, but this could be added with
audible glamer. If you get a load of rocks on your head you don't usually stop to
check if you hear anything anyway.
-----------------------------------------------
Henrik Nordhus __
Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^(
0182 Oslo ^^
NORWAY
Tlf. 22207746
E-Mail : Henrik....@hfstud.uio.no
-----------------------------------------------
Jason Chandler
Can we get back on topic, this started out as a really cool and useful
thread?
JC
Jason Chandler
University of Wisconsin Milwaukee
JAS...@CSD.UWM.EDU
HTTP://WWW.I.DON'T.HAVE/a.website.html
Art Major and Advocate General of Psionics
BOOG!
John Edwards
->I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
->Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
->anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
->Thanks!
->Kevin
Ever read the Black Company Books. They used illusions (of
course, these would be much more powerful thatn Phantasmal force, but
you get the idea) quite a bit in battle.
In the most recent one, the two wizards created illusions
(permenant/programmed illusion?) of themselves and of a lot of the old
and now missing Black Co members to distract the force outside the
city.
John
Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've
killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed
Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable
animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards
Phase
>For dungeon settings : An illusion of a cave-in. Perhaps one falling in the head of
>pursuiting monsters? I know PF doesn't have sound, but this could be added with
>audible glamer. If you get a load of rocks on your head you don't usually stop to
>check if you hear anything anyway.
and coordinate with you, because you can do nothing but stay very still
when working Phantasmal Force. A lack of vibration would also be a give
away to such an illusion. As for rocks falling on your head, if you see
the rocks hitting the ground and making no noise first, then you'll
probably disbelieve. But if you look up and see the _first_ rock free
falling in your general direction, well, you'll probably try to dodge,
and if you don't make it, it's gonna _feel_ like you took damage, and
depending on its size and whether it hit you on the head, you're going
unconscious.
Daniel Cunningham
Hey Jason I having a problem connecting to your website are you sure that is the correct Url 8-)
I sorry I couldn't resist wasting bandwidth please return to your discussion
*****************************************************************************
Bronto Man -- Making A Large Impression On The Net.
bron...@execpc.com {Daniel Cunningham}
Internet Rep. For The Fellowship of the Black Spot Gaming Club
http://www.execpc.com/~brontomn/fbs.html
*****************************************************************************
D.G. Larush
illusion of a ninja/assassin creature with red glowing eyes and an
unusual magical weapon (glowing, writhing, etc.), rising out of the ground.
Then announce; "Arise my Silent Stalker and pursue my enemies to the ends
of the Earth!"
And have the Silent Stalker menacingly (and silently yet) approach the
bad guys. If the bad guys do what they're supposed to and flee, they may
become really paranoid in years to come, wondering if that competely
*silent* stalker is still out there following them...
David
Rogier van Vugt
->> However, what if you created the illusion of whatever is on the other side
->> of the net over where the net is, thereby concealing the net?
->>
->> In this case, i'd say yes...
-> The gnomes can only cast 2D illusions, per the original poster.
->Maintaining the illusion of proper perspective WRT a half-dozen
->rapidly-moving characters would be a _real_ pain, if it's even possible.
Of course they can't do this, else the 2D wouldn't be a _restriction_
now would it? I'd say 'perspective' couldn't even be cast, unless with
an automatic successful saving throw. (This could be useful for making
pictures to illustrate a story or so)
Rogier 'Konradius' van Vugt
Rogier van Vugt
->For audible glamer to work, you would need another wizard to cast the spell
->and coordinate with you, because you can do nothing but stay very still
->when working Phantasmal Force. A lack of vibration would also be a give
->away to such an illusion. As for rocks falling on your head, if you see
->the rocks hitting the ground and making no noise first, then you'll
->probably disbelieve. But if you look up and see the _first_ rock free
->falling in your general direction, well, you'll probably try to dodge,
->and if you don't make it, it's gonna _feel_ like you took damage, and
->depending on its size and whether it hit you on the head, you're going
->unconscious.
Hmm... Phantasmal force doesn't have a _tactile_ component, so you
wouldn't feel rocks coming down on you. This also poses a problem with
the popular illusionary traps. I would say people would stumble if
they thought they were falling but in stead stepped on the normal
floor (remember this would have to be a 2D illusion, if it was 3D you
tried to make the ground invisible!) but I wouldn't go further than
that.
Also I say one can't make a monster in battle with phantasmal force.
How do you conjure the resistance one gets when one swings a sword at
a monster?
Now Spectral force, that spell does have a tactile component IIRC.
Rogier 'Konradius' van Vugt
Michael Brown
>Hmm... Phantasmal force doesn't have a _tactile_ component, so you
>wouldn't feel rocks coming down on you.
PF does create illusionary forces (as in, the sensation
of forces affecting the target- *not* real world newtons).
Re-read the spell descriptions of all illusion spells and
come back to us.
>This also poses a problem with
>the popular illusionary traps. I would say people would stumble if
>they thought they were falling but in stead stepped on the normal floor
The rulebooks note that this is exactly what happens -someone
hit with a pit-trap illusion falls down, thinking he had fallen.
Of course, in a moment, he will realize that he's just lying
on the ground, so it won't be a very effective illusion for
very long (unless the "fall" causes them to KO- which is why
illusionary pits are pretty deep! Only way they'd work.)
>Also I say one can't make a monster in battle with phantasmal force.
>How do you conjure the resistance one gets when one swings a sword at
>a monster?
Have you read the spell description at all? As long as the
caster controlls the illusion (ie; what visual sensations and
what forces the victim feels - it *is* all in his mind), then
the believers can be convinced (with varying degrees of success)
that they are fighting a real monster (strangely quiet, though . . ).
Once the illusion is out-of-control, then contact with the
"monster" (which isn't there) immediately triggers disbelief.
>Now Spectral force, that spell does have a tactile component IIRC.
Touch is not one of the components added to PF by SF. Touch
is there in the first place. Note the words "any creature,
object, or *force*." If you take the time to look over all
illusion spells again, you'll note that touch is *never*
added, as it is assumed to be part of the basic PF spell.
Some people treat the spell as needing to be *seen* before
the forces can be felt, but PF still has those two components.
-Michael, bummed to see this error propagating yet again
bgk...@ibm.net
Force of a bunch of ropes appearing out of nowhere
and starting to entangle the bad guys. While I maintained
the illusion I kept saying stuff about how they would
never escape my magical ropes. It worked pretty well.
My theory was that ropes are fairly mundane items
that most people wouldn't have trouble believing in,
even if they did pop out of thin air.
Brett King
Rogier van Vugt
->In an RPGA tournament recently I cast a Phantasmal
->Force of a bunch of ropes appearing out of nowhere
->and starting to entangle the bad guys. While I maintained
->the illusion I kept saying stuff about how they would
->never escape my magical ropes. It worked pretty well.
->My theory was that ropes are fairly mundane items
->that most people wouldn't have trouble believing in,
->even if they did pop out of thin air.
->Brett King
Hmm... I'd say I'd walk out on those ropes I can't _feel_ I havn't got
my PBH handy, maybe anyone can check phantasmal force, improved
phantasmal force and spectral force to see what is really said of this
aspect of the illusion. The stuff about illusions just before the
spell list is a bit misguiding in my opinion.
What I recall of the spells is that ph. f. can _only_ be seen, not
felt, heard etc. im/ ph. f. has bits of sound and maybe a weak version
of other senses and only spectral force can be felt (I'd say this can
also be used for temperature feeling etc)
Doesn't anybody think too that phantasmal force that can be felt is a
bit _very_ strong for a 1st lvl spell?
Rogier 'Konradius' van Vugt
Michael Brown
>my PBH handy, maybe anyone can check phantasmal force, improved
>phantasmal force and spectral force to see what is really said of this
>aspect of the illusion.
Any object, creature, or *force*. First sentence.
>What I recall of the spells is that ph. f. can _only_ be seen, not
>felt, heard etc. im/ ph. f. has bits of sound and maybe a weak version
>of other senses and only spectral force can be felt (I'd say this can
>also be used for temperature feeling etc)
You are in error. Please check your books before posting nonesense
a third time. Don't consider this a flame; simply an honest, if firmly
stated, request. <grin> I've worked long and hard to set people
straight as to the workings of phantasmal force and I won't have
misinformation spread!
P.Force: Visual and Forces
IPF: +Minor sounds (and autopilot).
SF: +Full sound, smells, and thermal components
>Doesn't anybody think too that phantasmal force that can be felt is a
>bit _very_ strong for a 1st lvl spell?
No. It can only be *felt* - which is far different from the
creation of real forces. A tactile aspect is also *required*
if a phantasmal-force monster is to be expected to actually
convince someone he has been wounded. Those falling victim
to illusions don't "fill in" the missing sensory components-
you don't *ever* hear or smell a Phantasmal Force created orc.
Likewise, unless there was a tactile component to the spell,
when an illusionary orc attacked me with its rusty scimitar,
I wouldn't *feel* it, and its falsehood would be immediately
revealed. Seeing and feeling are thus "minimum entrance" requirements
for any illusion that would be able to do damage characters in
the fashions that illusions can (temporarily).
-Michael
Ubiquitous
>For dungeon settings : An illusion of a cave-in. Perhaps one falling in the head of
>pursuiting monsters? I know PF doesn't have sound, but this could be added with
>audible glamer. If you get a load of rocks on your head you don't usually stop to
>check if you hear anything anyway.
For phantasmal force, I always had my illusionist yell "I'll get them
with a magic missile spell!", follwed by the appropriate illusion.
My fav, however, is to use the improved one (with minor sounds) to
create an illusionary chain lightning spell.
--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Ubiquitous
>From: rvv...@worldaccess.nl (Rogier van Vugt)
>>Hmm... Phantasmal force doesn't have a _tactile_ component, so you
>>wouldn't feel rocks coming down on you.
>
> PF does create illusionary forces (as in, the sensation
> of forces affecting the target- *not* real world newtons).
> Re-read the spell descriptions of all illusion spells and
> come back to us.
No, it doesn't. If a mage were to create an illusion, of, say, a knight
with a club behind someone and make it hit him, the victim would not
be aware of it unless he saw it.
>>Now Spectral force, that spell does have a tactile component IIRC.
>
> Touch is not one of the components added to PF by SF. Touch
> is there in the first place. Note the words "any creature,
> object, or *force*." If you take the time to look over all
> illusion spells again, you'll note that touch is *never*
> added, as it is assumed to be part of the basic PF spell.
It does not mean "force" in that sense, obviously. If you read the next
sentence, it says that an illusion is visual and then later clarifies
that by stating there is audio or thermal componants.
> Some people treat the spell as needing to be *seen* before
> the forces can be felt, but PF still has those two components.
>
>-Michael, bummed to see this error propagating yet again
So by your reasoning, an illusionist makes a bridge across and a chasm,
and anyone who believes can cross it? No dice.
Ubiquitous
>From: rvv...@worldaccess.nl (Rogier van Vugt)
>>Hmm... I'd say I'd walk out on those ropes I can't _feel_ I havn't got
>>my PBH handy, maybe anyone can check phantasmal force, improved
>>phantasmal force and spectral force to see what is really said of this
>>aspect of the illusion.
>
> Any object, creature, or *force*. First sentence.
Bone up on your reading comprehension, boy, before you make an even
bigger ass of yourself.
> P.Force: Visual effects
> IPF: +Minor sounds (and autopilot).
> SF: +Full sound, smells, and thermal components
>>Doesn't anybody think too that phantasmal force that can be felt is a
>>bit _very_ strong for a 1st lvl spell?
>
> No. It can only be *felt* - which is far different from the
> creation of real forces.
No, the target only thinks he feels the effects. If you create an
illusionary bridge, it will not support any weight put on it, even
by someone who rolled a "1" on his save. Likewise, an illusionary
wall will not support someone who leans against it or deflect objects
thrown at it.
> Likewise, unless there was a tactile component to the spell,
> when an illusionary orc attacked me with its rusty scimitar,
> I wouldn't *feel* it, and its falsehood would be immediately
> revealed. Seeing and feeling are thus "minimum entrance" requirements
> for any illusion that would be able to do damage characters in
> the fashions that illusions can (temporarily).
Actually, once contact with the illusion is made, the spell ends.
Michael Brown
>No, it doesn't. If a mage were to create an illusion, of, say, a knight
>with a club behind someone and make it hit him, the victim would not
>be aware of it unless he saw it.
Because the illusion needs to be seen to affect its target at all,
according to strict reading - but once the "hit" happens, the
target *feels*it.
>It does not mean "force" in that sense, obviously. If you read the next
It does *exactly* mean force in that sense.
>So by your reasoning, an illusionist makes a bridge across and a chasm,
>and anyone who believes can cross it? No dice.
What about illusionary forces "that aren't Real" don't you understand?
A person under the effects of an illusion will psychosomatically
react to perceived *forces* to the limits of his body's ability.
Such as "leaning" on an illusionary wall by holding one's weight
off of it. This does not mean the spell creates any forces -
only *sensations* of force (ie; illusionary forces).
Someone stepping onto an illusionary bridge would *feel* it
as solid until such time as he had moved his body far enough
onto it that it was no longer possible for him to support himself
with his rear leg, at which point he will be quite surprised to
find himself off-balance and falling right through the thing,
because it isn't really there.
-Michael
Michael Brown
>Bone up on your reading comprehension, boy, before you make an even
>bigger ass of yourself.
without provocation. Due to your own lack of reading comprehension
in this matter, this makes you look quite foolish- as 'tis you,
ubiquitous one, who has just made a reasonably strong case for your
own boorishness.
Get some rest, and try again when you are capable of being polite-
and while you're at it, you should re-read your illusion rules,
as you have made an error in your own assertions.
And I will expect an apology.
:> No. It can only be *felt* - which is far different from the
:> creation of real forces.
>
>No, the target only thinks he feels the effects. If you create an
That is exactly what I said. Illusions create the sensations
of forces- ie; forces that can only be *felt* but are not real..
>Actually, once contact with the illusion is made, the spell ends.
No. Egads, what utter bonkerness! You, yourself, just made
an example based on "leaning on an illusory wall".
Phantasmal Force can be used to create illusionary monsters that
can engage characters and hurt them (and their blows can be *felt*).
These illusions can contact characters and be contacted by them
without risk to their ingegrity - as long as they are being controlled
so that their reactions (and the required sensations of impact) can be
generated appropriately. Whenever such an illusion is *not* under
control (or the illusion is attacked in an unanticipated way),
it is vulnerable to disrupton.
[for the group: ] - not you, U', unless you get civil.
There are some ambiguities and interesting questions in this.
Exactly what mechanism destroys a (vulnerable) attacked illusion?
It just dawned on me that the one I always assumed would apply (strong
proof of falsehood) has strange implications for those who have
disbelieved already, or who did not see the strike.
If an illusion were of 2 orcs, would striking one with a surprise
attack cause the other to be destroyed as well? Why or why not?
Would a surprise attack against an illusion meet any resistance?
Or do monster-illusions require so much complexity that who-feels-what
has to be directly controlled at all times? Is the control different
for sight or any of the other senses? If so, what is the structure
of an illusion? Is it localized in space, or in the mind? Or
are some senses in one, and some in the other? For example, an
illusion of an orc could be a "field" where one might encounter
the sensation of pressure (ie; touching the orc), which generates
visual imagery in all who lay eyes on it (seeing the orc). Or,
it may be a visually projecting "field" which gives the wizard
a carrier-wave into the target's brain which can then be used
to directly manipulate what he senses . . .
A phantasmal force wall can be felt by believers if touched -
it need not "react" to any such abuse (I'm a wall, I'm a wall . . ),
although a noticeable lack of chipping would be a clue to its
falseness once hacked with an axe. Would an "attack" have any
reason to bring it down instantly if it was left in place by the caster
and allowed to go "uncontrolled"? A wall's complexity is much
less than that of a monster. As long as victims can psychosomatically
stop their weapons when they impact -as they would fighting an
illusionary monster . . . , then the wall's falseness wouldn't
be revealed just by striking it, controlled or not.
-Michael, throwing some new philosophical munchies to the group at large.
Cameron King
>> Likewise, unless there was a tactile component to the spell,
>> when an illusionary orc attacked me with its rusty scimitar,
>> I wouldn't *feel* it, and its falsehood would be immediately
>> revealed. Seeing and feeling are thus "minimum entrance" requirements
>> for any illusion that would be able to do damage characters in
>> the fashions that illusions can (temporarily).
>
>Actually, once contact with the illusion is made, the spell ends.
Normally I avoid this thread, since everybody handles illusionary
magic differently, but whenever anyone speaks "ex cathedra" and
gets it wrong, I feel compelled to point it out.
First, "contact" does not end PF. If the illusion is *both* A)
struck (different from "contact") *and* B) does not react
appropriately (for example, the illusionary orc does not flinch
from a sword-blow to the head), then the spell ends. Otherwise it
keeps right on going.
Secondly, AD&D has never (to my knowledge) described a spell in
which tactile effects were part of the illusion. The closest they
came was Spectral Forces, which includes "thermal" effects. As
I understand it, AD&D illusions work on the premise that "believing
is feeling," and thus you can lean on an illusionary wall because
you're not really putting your weight on it, you just *think* you
are, but you can't walk across an illusionary bridge without
falling through because you really are putting your weight on that,
and there's nothing (physical) actually there.
Have fun with the rest of this thread. I'll try not to open my
big mouth again on this subject...
Phase
>mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU wrote: chael Brown) says:
>> Any object, creature, or *force*. First sentence.
>
>bigger ass of yourself.
'illusionary' and has no 'real' effect on the universe, it does
have an effect (mental and psycosomatic) on a duped character.
How else can illusions cause damage? (even if not real)
>>>Doesn't anybody think too that phantasmal force that can be felt is a
>>>bit _very_ strong for a 1st lvl spell?
>>
>> creation of real forces.
>
>No, the target only thinks he feels the effects. If you create an
>by someone who rolled a "1" on his save. Likewise, an illusionary
>wall will not support someone who leans against it or deflect objects
>thrown at it.
duped by the illusion will _believe_ that the bridge could support
them, until all the inconsistent (and much too late) stimuli (him
falling) told him otherwise.
This one is a much more complicated illusion than the wall to analyze,
as it is kin to the controversial 'pit trap' illusions. If a duped
character were to 'poke' the bridge with a staff to see if it were
sturdy, they would 'subconsciosly' stop the staff from penetrating,
due to the contact 'force' of the illusion. There would be no sound
however, and depending on how hard the character 'believed' he was
pounding on the bridge, he might get another saving throw to realize
its an illusion. If he were using the staff to see if the bridge _was_
an illusion, he should get plusses to his save. If he were using an
item that had too much 'momentum' for him to subconsciouly control,
he might notice the illusion for what it was. Tossing a rock onto
the bridge would reveal the illusion, unless the mage (who has to
be nearby for PF) made the illusion of the rock resting on the bridge.
Putting the first foot on the bridge (or in a different scenario, the
first foot on the illusionary ground over a chasm or pit) the duped
character would think that it was supporting his weight, even though
in actuality he was not putting any weight on the illusionary surface.
But once he took the second foot (the one that was unconsciously
supporting all his weight) off the ground, he would be falling, and
would either be very confused or realizing (too late) that it was
an illusion.
The illusionist could also have the illusion change so that it
appeared that the falling character fell through rotten wood,
and the illusion of the rest of the bridge was still there, ready
to dupe other party members.
As for the illusionary wall, the duped character would not be truly
leaning against it, his body would be unconsciouly balancing himself.
But they would _believe_ they were leaning against the wall.
Look in the Player's Handbook under Abjucating Illusions.
They specifically give the 'leaning against the wall' example.
Idly (or purposely) tossing a rock at the wall would give them
a saving throw with much bonuses, if not automatic disbelief,
when the rock went through it. But if a person was 'feeling'
along the wall for secret passages, and was duped, he would
'feel' the wall. You might give another save (they always
get 1, unless the illusion is perfect) if they were feeling
along a normal wall first, and then upon feeling the illusionary
wall (which felt the same) and noticing the lack of temperature.
>> Likewise, unless there was a tactile component to the spell,
>> when an illusionary orc attacked me with its rusty scimitar,
>> I wouldn't *feel* it, and its falsehood would be immediately
>> revealed. Seeing and feeling are thus "minimum entrance" requirements
>> for any illusion that would be able to do damage characters in
>> the fashions that illusions can (temporarily).
>
>Actually, once contact with the illusion is made, the spell ends.
If they do not do so, the duped character gets a saving throw to try
to disbelieve the illusion. Read the PHB.
Basically the 'force' in Phantasmal 'Force' is contact force.
If a character is duped by the illusion of a ceiling coming down
to crush him, it will 'feel' like he's being crushed, even if he
closes his eyes. Again, look in the PHB for abjucating illusions
of such situations.
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
Ed Polanco
>
> As for the illusionary wall, the duped character would not be truly
> leaning against it, his body would be unconsciouly balancing himself.
> But they would _believe_ they were leaning against the wall.
> I don't agree with this at all. Why don't you ask UMass guard
Carmelo Travieso about what happens when you believe a wall is behind
you. He fell off a stage at a press conference because he thought a wall
was behind a curtain that was hanging behind the stage.
--
Ed Polanco
esp...@psu.edu
esp...@psuvm.psu.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Get busy living or get busy dying."
-Andy Dufrain, Shawshank Redemption
"Every man dies, but not every man really lives."
-William Wallace, Braveheart
Phase
>Phase wrote:
>> As for the illusionary wall, the duped character would not be truly
>> leaning against it, his body would be unconsciouly balancing himself.
>> But they would _believe_ they were leaning against the wall.
>Carmelo Travieso about what happens when you believe a wall is behind
>you. He fell off a stage at a press conference because he thought a wall
>was behind a curtain that was hanging behind the stage.
wall was behind him, but in AD&D, illusions are _magical_, and in fact,
there have been some arguments on whether a person once duped by an
illusionary wall would be able to accurately judge where it is enough
to unconsciously stop were he to be blindfolded.
But if you were to blindfold a person duped by a phantasmal wall, and
then push him into that wall, even as he was falling through it he
would at first believe he was smashing into the wall and may act
accordingly. Once the blindfold was removed however, and he found
himself either beyond or partly in the wall, the illusion would be
disbelieved.
The illusion in this case is stronger than what Carmelo experienced,
because if you were to slam him toward the curtain where he thought
there was a wall, he would not _feel_ that he was smashing into the
wall. In both cases, the illusion would be 'disbelieved' once they
were falling through, but in the AD&D scenario, there is a magic
struggling to dupe the character, not just an incorrect assumption.
The magical illusions are better able to affect the body _subconsciously_
because they have a tactile component. The person would _feel_ the wall
and stop, subconsciously (if he could, the body can only do so much
without you becoming aware, and strong momentum is hard a thing to stop.)
But Carmelo did _not_ feel the wall, so he kept going.
Thanks for disagreeing and giving a good argument.
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
Michael Brown
>The illusionist could also have the illusion change so that it
>appeared that the falling character fell through rotten wood,
>and the illusion of the rest of the bridge was still there, ready
>to dupe other party members.
-Michael
The Amorphous Mass
> Phase wrote:
>
> >
> > As for the illusionary wall, the duped character would not be truly
> > leaning against it, his body would be unconsciouly balancing himself.
> > But they would _believe_ they were leaning against the wall.
> > I don't agree with this at all. Why don't you ask UMass guard
> Carmelo Travieso about what happens when you believe a wall is behind
> you. He fell off a stage at a press conference because he thought a wall
> was behind a curtain that was hanging behind the stage.
The same thing would happen to our hapless guard if some clueless
illusionist created a phantasmal wall behind a curtain, because even if
the guard _guesses_ that there's a wall there, there isn't. If the
illusionist creates a phantasmal wall in plain sight, then the wall will
only "support" the guard if he idly "leans" against it -- ie only enough
to allow his legs to continue supporting his weight. If someone pushes
him, or if he puts one hand against the wall and crosses his legs so
that he is dependent on the "wall" for support then he'll go crashing
right through it. Illusion magic is supposed to force people to
believe its effects, within reason. Curtains have no such power. :-)
Does that make more sense?
----------------
The Amorphous Mass (james-r...@uiowa.edu)
aka Hyacinth, elven ambassador to the Human Islands
Phase
:>The illusionist could also have the illusion change so that it
:>appeared that the falling character fell through rotten wood,
:>and the illusion of the rest of the bridge was still there, ready
:>to dupe other party members.
: Ooohoo! That is _clever_.
Tee hee. Thank ye. The character's initial scream should be enough
to cover the lack of sound that the cracking wood should make.
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
Phase
>Hmm... Phantasmal force doesn't have a _tactile_ component, so you
>the popular illusionary traps. I would say people would stumble if
>they thought they were falling but in stead stepped on the normal
>tried to make the ground invisible!) but I wouldn't go further than
>that.
illusions of objects, creatures, and forces. But since it is a
visual illusion, the only forces it can imitate are the ones that
are associated with what you can see (namely, the forces making
the objects or creatures move, and the contact (tactile) forces
for those illusions.)
An illusion done by Phantasmal Force is NOT a hologram.
Holograms would be done by Alteration magic, not spells that
manipulated the senses directly.
>Also I say one can't make a monster in battle with phantasmal force.
>How do you conjure the resistance one gets when one swings a sword at
>a monster?
Phantasmal Force. Striking an illusion would normally make it
dissappear since your body cannot subconsciously 'halt the blow'
well enough in response to the illusionary resistance. However,
if the caster makes the illusion react appropriately (cringing,
wounds appearing, etc.) the illusion is still in force.
You can 'attack' with illusions, _and_ cause damage, albet,
illusionary damage. Look under adbjucating illusions in the PHB.
The 'leaning against an illusionary wall' example in that section
is only possible with illusionary contact (tactile) forces.
>Now Spectral force, that spell does have a tactile component IIRC.
the Phantasmal Force and Improved Phantasmal Force abilities,
because they already have them.
Someone define IIRC for me. I figured out most of these abbreviations,
but not this one. *8)
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
> Rogier 'Konradius' van Vugt
Ubiquitous
>I170...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU (Phase) wrote:
>Hmm... Phantasmal force doesn't have a _tactile_ component, so you
>wouldn't feel rocks coming down on you. This also poses a problem with
>the popular illusionary traps. I would say people would stumble if
>they thought they were falling but in stead stepped on the normal
>floor (remember this would have to be a 2D illusion, if it was 3D you
>tried to make the ground invisible!) but I wouldn't go further than
>that.
Actually, according to the rules, if someone was in the area of effect
of an illusionary pit, they'd think they were falling and unconcsiously
try to make it so, resulting in the victim kinda ducking and dropping
prone.
>Also I say one can't make a monster in battle with phantasmal force.
>How do you conjure the resistance one gets when one swings a sword at
>a monster?
Actually, the illusionary monster will dissapear the first time it is
hit, as per spell description. Not sure if I'd make it AC10 or the
same AC as the monster, however.
Michael Brown
>Actually, the illusionary monster will dissapear the first time it is
>hit, as per spell description. Not sure if I'd make it AC10 or the
>same AC as the monster, however.
Ubiquitous, I recall someone saying something to the effect of
>Bone up on your reading comprehension, boy, before you make an even
>bigger ass of yourself.
I see you haven't taken your own advice yet. Allow me to give
you some step by step instructions to assist you in the matter.
1) *Open* a copy of the AD&D player's handbook, 2nd Edition.
2) Turn to page 137.
3) Make sure your eyes are open. If you have difficulty with this,
scotch tape and a liberal dosing of coffee will help.
4) Locate the paragraph beneath the heading "Phantasmal Force"
5) *Read it*. Pay particular attention to the entirety
of the 5th sentence. It will say something incredibly
similar to this:
"The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent - unless the
spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
6) Close the book and put it away. You may close your eyes
at your leisure after that. Remember to remove the tape if used.
-Michael, still waiting for his apology
Jim Sisolak
P> Phantasmal Force can create 3-dimensional illusions. It [....]
P> An illusion done by Phantasmal Force is NOT a hologram.
Why not? I consider it a hologram+
If there is no holographic component (real image), then....
(1) Why do all the illusions have areas of effect clearly desgined to
limit the extent of the illusion? If it *only* affected minds, the area of
effect should be something like X people within Y yards of the caster.
(2) Home come people very far away, hidden from the caster, those who
disbelive, or those just plain (immune to / protected from) illusions can
still tell what all the fuss is about? If they *can't* really tell, as in
the case of Phantasmal Killer, then what happens when you "disbelieve" -
does the thing just vanish? All these illusions of dead mages I've seen in
modules (the ones that appear and speak to/threaten/annoy the party) - if
the party all saves, then they don't get the message?
(3) How do Svirfneblin illusionists ever see a damn thing they cast,
since they're immune?
(4) How does a long lasting illusion affect the minds of people very far
away after the caster has left (hallucinatory terrain as viewed by someone
flying over it -- is the range at which it affects minds infinite?)
(5) How could you *ever* see an illusion through a crystal ball? The
illusionist might not even know he's being scried, and the scrier might be
a 1000 miles away. "You can't see illusions while scrying," you say? Are
you sure? Well then I'll just get out my crystal ball and scry this here
room and see what I don't see.
(6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
P> Holograms would be done by Alteration magic, not spells that
P> manipulated the senses directly.
P> Also, AD&D rules say that you can make a 'fighting monster' [....]
You cite all these rules as if everything were laid out nice and neat in
the books. It isn't as if the rules/spells were all written by one person
with a single, coherent understanding of what illusions were and how they
worked. Iluusions are a mess, and pretending that isn't so is no solution.
P> You can 'attack' with illusions, _and_ cause damage, albet,
P> illusionary damage.
Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
off me or they won't, which is it?
P> Look under adbjucating illusions in the PHB.
I did. Nice idea, but little help in practice.
P> The 'leaning against an illusionary wall' example in that section
[....]
P> The spell description does not explicitly 'add' tactile forces to
P> the Phantasmal Force and Improved Phantasmal Force abilities,
P> because they already have them.
Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
Finally.....
Do illusions which make noise actually vibrate the air, or is this a purely
mental conveyance of sound? Be careful how you answer, for if you say no,
a Silence 15' radius spell will be *dead giveaway* for any illusion with
sound -- heck just cover your ears, if the sound isn't muffled, it's an
illusion. If there is no real sound, the NO ONE beyond the area of effect
should hear anything (step into the room, hear dragon roaring, step out and
hear nothing...hmmmm).
"If you cast Audible Glammer and no one is there, does it make a sound?"
--
JS
Ubiquitous
>web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) stated:
>>Actually, the illusionary monster will dissapear the first time it is
>>hit, as per spell description. Not sure if I'd make it AC10 or the
>>same AC as the monster, however.
>
> Ubiquitous, I recall someone saying something to the effect of
>
> >Bone up on your reading comprehension, boy, before you make an even
> >bigger ass of yourself.
>
> I see you haven't taken your own advice yet. Allow me to give
> you some step by step instructions to assist you in the matter.
[ What Mr. Brown learned in the remedial english class he's taking ]
[ this year was deleted as part of "be nice to 'tards week". ] ]
I've played long enough to know the rules, but I'll repeat it for
the de-pantsed one's sake:
> "The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent - unless the
> spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
> or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
This begs the question "How can the caster make the phantasmal
opponent react appropriately if it vanishes at the moment it is
hit?"
I don't believe it is possible, especially given the fact that the
caster will not have a clear enough view of the melee to see what
is happening at all times. By the time the caster, who will have
minimal knowledge of battle skills in the first place (*), realizes his
creation has been hit(**), it will be too late to do anything about it.
(*) Which is why the caster's THAC0 is used in lieu of the real one.
(**) As determined by the illusion's AC, whatever the hell that may be.
As with the various shadow monster spells, I'd do the same.
Poison
> (1) Why do all the illusions have areas of effect clearly desgined to
>limit the extent of the illusion? If it *only* affected minds, the area of
>effect should be something like X people within Y yards of the caster.
A psionist's invisibality acts something like this....
> (2) Home come people very far away, hidden from the caster, those who
>disbelive, or those just plain (immune to / protected from) illusions can
>still tell what all the fuss is about? If they *can't* really tell, as in
>the case of Phantasmal Killer, then what happens when you "disbelieve" -
>does the thing just vanish? All these illusions of dead mages I've seen in
>modules (the ones that appear and speak to/threaten/annoy the party) - if
>the party all saves, then they don't get the message?
> (3) How do Svirfneblin illusionists ever see a damn thing they cast,
>since they're immune?
Cause you can willingly give up your saveing throw and/or magic
resistance.....
> (6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
>hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
>"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
>BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
>bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
>Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
I think there holograms with a tactile mind alteration
componet...therefor you are BOTH right...it is a hologram AND it
affects the mind...
> P> You can 'attack' with illusions, _and_ cause damage, albet,
> P> illusionary damage.
>
>Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
>not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
>the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
>off me or they won't, which is it?
They won't.....Read the rules if you THINK you have been killed you
merly pass out unconcious.......then wake up later and
auto-disbelive....BTW they will see the blood ect as will you but when
you 'die' they will think you are dead...they may leave you but when
you wake up they will either auto-disbelive or think you are some kind
of weird zombie <intresting propisiton there...>
>Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
You can't...you also can't lean on a illusionary wall with any force
without falling through it....
>Finally.....
>Do illusions which make noise actually vibrate the air, or is this a purely
>mental conveyance of sound? Be careful how you answer, for if you say no,
>a Silence 15' radius spell will be *dead giveaway* for any illusion with
>sound -- heck just cover your ears, if the sound isn't muffled, it's an
>illusion. If there is no real sound, the NO ONE beyond the area of effect
>should hear anything (step into the room, hear dragon roaring, step out and
>hear nothing...hmmmm).
I'd say it vibrates the air....
Poison
>"P" == Phase <I170...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU> writes:
> P> Phantasmal Force can create 3-dimensional illusions. It [....]
> P> An illusion done by Phantasmal Force is NOT a hologram.
>Why not? I consider it a hologram+
>If there is no holographic component (real image), then....
Just thought of this.....ever watch the episode of startrek called
'The Cage'? those creatures could have made you THINK you were
standing aginst a wall while you were really falling down and breaking
your arm....or THINK you were walking over a bridge while you were
really drowing, so your fellowes would follow...ect ect ect on and
on....of course this gives illusions WAY too much power<<<I.E. a
stone floor instead of a mdeep pit with spikes...you fall in but think
your still walking over it and so do your friends so you die of
bleeding while you think your chaseing the mage....could get VERY
munchkiny>>>
Phase
>"P" == Phase <I170...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU> writes:
>
> P> Phantasmal Force can create 3-dimensional illusions. It [....]
> P> An illusion done by Phantasmal Force is NOT a hologram.
>
>Why not? I consider it a hologram+
>If there is no holographic component (real image), then....
>limit the extent of the illusion? If it *only* affected minds, the area of
>effect should be something like X people within Y yards of the caster.
the area that the wizard can place the illusion, but the illusion itself
can be seen outside of the area of effect. It doesn't have an effect
like 'x people in this range' because the magic does not actively go
out seeking minds to dupe in this case. An object or monster created
by Phantasmal Force may not be really there, but there _is_ magic in
that location (area of effect) and when one views that magic, then
there is the chance that they come under the influence of it.
That is the Illusion part of illusions in my opinion.
The Phantasm part is the more aggressive and selective part.
Ex. Phantasmal Killers no one else (even the wizard) can see.
> (2) Home come people very far away, hidden from the caster, those who
>disbelive, or those just plain (immune to / protected from) illusions can
>still tell what all the fuss is about? If they *can't* really tell, as in
>the case of Phantasmal Killer, then what happens when you "disbelieve" -
>does the thing just vanish? All these illusions of dead mages I've seen in
>modules (the ones that appear and speak to/threaten/annoy the party) - if
>the party all saves, then they don't get the message?
spells tell explicity what happens. But in general, "the illusion is
revealed for what it is." It can still be there, but it is no longer
believable. There are contradictions in various sources, and much
ambiguity. Is it possible to 'disbelieve' Invisibility (which does
not use Alteration magic like how the Predator uses Alteration)?
> (3) How do Svirfneblin illusionists ever see a damn thing they cast,
>since they're immune?
(ceases to exist? nah) Someone already mentioned that one can forgo
their magic resistance and saving throws, but a better rational is to
say that illusionists have to visualize their illusions, and for the
weaker spells, continously concentrate on it. Once that magic is shaped
through whatever imagery the illusionist uses, it almost gains a life of
its own. Having an illusionist be able to see his illusions is practically
_necessary_ in order to make good illusions, so it would be reasonable
to say that they can see them, despite knowing that they are 'illusions'
and having automatic 'disbelief'.
> (4) How does a long lasting illusion affect the minds of people very far
>away after the caster has left (hallucinatory terrain as viewed by someone
>flying over it -- is the range at which it affects minds infinite?)
effect question above.
> (5) How could you *ever* see an illusion through a crystal ball? The
>illusionist might not even know he's being scried, and the scrier might be
>a 1000 miles away. "You can't see illusions while scrying," you say? Are
>you sure? Well then I'll just get out my crystal ball and scry this here
>room and see what I don't see.
would give you a chance of being under the influence of the illusion
magic. Could one avoid the harmful mental attacks of certain runes
by viewing them through magical means? I would say no.
The illusionist doesn't have to know who is _viewing_ his illusions for
them to work, but he does have to be aware of how that illusion is
_interacting_ with others in order to keep any incongruities from
showing up.
> (6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
>hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
>"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
>BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
>bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
>Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
illuminate anything? Or would you just see flames in the normal darkness?
I would say you couldn't read (though you may think you should be able to)
and that the fire would be recognized as magical. Phantasmal Force
illusions have to be seen to be believed. Could you see an illusion
(even one of a fire) in pitch darkness? If I could actually illuminate
things (alteration magic can) with PF, one of the things I would like
doing is make a blinding flash of light. (But how does one 'disbelieve'
a blinding flash of light?) Can PF create light? It can create objects
and creatures, and even visibly transmitted forces that can affect you.
One could say that you might be able to create the electromagnetic force
of light, but would the light you could perceive be only the light
directly from the illusion that has not been reflected (it's not real)
off of something else? I don't know, you've raised some good questions.
But I must say, that when an AD&D character _sees_ an illusion, he is
not seeing 'altered light that is making the illusion', or even
'illusionary light', the image is placed magically in his mind, and
the mind takes for granted that the character's eyes are _seeing_
the illusion.
> P> Holograms would be done by Alteration magic, not spells that
> P> manipulated the senses directly.
>
> P> Also, AD&D rules say that you can make a 'fighting monster' [....]
>
>You cite all these rules as if everything were laid out nice and neat in
>the books. It isn't as if the rules/spells were all written by one person
>with a single, coherent understanding of what illusions were and how they
>worked. Iluusions are a mess, and pretending that isn't so is no solution.
by various combinations of alteration and charm magic, and any other
combinations you could manage that would _trick_ someone or give the
_illusion_ of something. But in AD&D, true illusions are not real in
any way, they directly affect your mind. An 'alteration' illusion
would be an indirect illusion, the actual physical manipulation of
light and sound. There would be no way to 'disbelieve' under the
normal game mechanics, you would be even more forced to notice some
inconsistancy in the illusion. It is in typical fantasy fiction where
the illusions are either so fake that you can just 'walk right through
them' or are so believable it's almost as if you're immersed in another
reality. AD&D just starts off with illusions a little more effective
than the first of the two.
> P> You can 'attack' with illusions, _and_ cause damage, albet,
> P> illusionary damage.
>
>Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
>not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
>the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
>off me or they won't, which is it?
damage, injury (pain, stiffness, swelling, death) that your body actually
manifests in response to the (illusionary) stimuli.
Truly, it depends on how your DM interprets illusions and how strong
he wants them to be. Usually, I just tally up 'illusionary' damage
and treat it like real damage, until I have time (have passed out
and woken up perhaps) to realize that I was never truly injured.
> P> Look under adbjucating illusions in the PHB.
>
>I did. Nice idea, but little help in practice.
>
> P> The 'leaning against an illusionary wall' example in that section
> [....]
> P> The spell description does not explicitly 'add' tactile forces to
> P> the Phantasmal Force and Improved Phantasmal Force abilities,
> P> because they already have them.
>
You just think they're real until given reason to disbelieve (which
falling through a non-existant bridge would readily do.)
>Finally.....
>
>Do illusions which make noise actually vibrate the air, or is this a purely
>mental conveyance of sound? Be careful how you answer, for if you say no,
>a Silence 15' radius spell will be *dead giveaway* for any illusion with
>sound -- heck just cover your ears, if the sound isn't muffled, it's an
>illusion. If there is no real sound, the NO ONE beyond the area of effect
>should hear anything (step into the room, hear dragon roaring, step out and
>hear nothing...hmmmm).
illusions is hearing range, treat as if it were a real sound. They are
not real sounds however, because there is no alteration magic affecting
the air. So Silence spells and such may actually pose difficulties for
the believability of illusions, but only to Players, and those who
understand the mechanics behind AD&D. Hint: Most Characters will
not (or should not, no use of Player knowledge here). The mage who cast
the spell might (or might think it negated, who would notice the lack of
other noise under the awe-inspiring bellow of a dragon?), but what is he
gonna do? Explain (in the area of effect of the Silence spell;) that
that CANNOT be a real dragon because we shouldn't have heard it? And
those who failed their saves will be hard pressed to believe the mage
(what does he know!! that's a da-da-dragon in there!) who does manage to
convey the message. At the most, under such fear and circumstances,
they would get another save, or otherwise think the mage fool.
"What do you mean that's not a dragon? It sure looks, smells, and
sounds like a dragon!!!"
>"If you cast Audible Glammer and no one is there, does it make a sound?"
a 'real' sound.
Another thing you have to realize, is that illusions play on your
'expectations' quite a bit to be effective. If you were to muffle
your ears, you would expect your hearing to be affected, and by
Elminster, it probably would. If you closed your eyes, would you
still see the illusion because it's "directly affecting your mind"?
Of course not. Could that illusion still affect you?
If you believe it, yes.
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
Deric Elkins
On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Kevin Dill wrote:
> Kevin Erickson <h...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
> >Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
> >anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>
> >Thanks!
> >Kevin
>
Have you ever thought up putting up, rather than collapsing, walls? Good
for confusing those who are unfamiliar with the area (fake open pits are
another good way to discourage pursuit). Along similar lines, and
inspired by Road Runner cartoons, make a wall look like a hallway or
cover a real pit [SPLAT!]. :-)
**************************************************************************
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**************************************************************************
Patrick Breton
Everybody seem to agree that an illusion is suppose to dissapear if it
is struck be something (The fall in the pit, etc.), "unless the
caster cause the illusion to react approprietly" by the PH.
So, if the caster create the illusion of a ogre attacking a group, how
can he make the illusion react to every blow of, let say, the four
fighters? Unless he is in a good spot to see almos everything, he will
miss creating the illusion of a blow at the right spot (or good length
of wounds, etc.) of every attackers.
What i suggest is, in the same round, if more than one person is
attacking and had a succesful hit, each of attacker can make an
intelligence check at +1 by number of attackers (they are making a
save all the effect the would have seen in general, so one by
attacker).
So, in my example, if three attackers had hit in the same round, they
would have realise that it took a couple of second to see the wounds
that they had inflicted in the ogre. This will give them a clue that
it is an illusion.
The more the wizard (or illusionnist) is experienced, the more he can
make is illusion react fast to the effect of the blow. So for every 3
level, he can add one more attacker without disturbing. (He's so used
to do it and make is illusion react, he can make it react to both
attackers at the same time. (Still think that if three attackers
attack at the same time and score a hit, they could still make
intelligence check).
Finally, i will add that if the caster have never seen the effect of
an exotic weapon (what's a shuriken???) or a spell (one that ame from
the great net spellbook???), each person that knew the effect of the
weapon or spell can make an intelligence check at +1.
What do you think?
P. Breton
HCS...@uacsc2.albany.edu
Wen found, this item is usually a sphere... about 1' in diameter, and weighing
around 5-10 pounds. When held, the holder can concentrate and change it into
any shape that they please. Once concentration stops, it becomes a sphere
again. The object always retains it's riginal weight, and the object that
it turns into must fit into a 5'x5'x5' cube. Therefore, a short sword
could be formed, but not a 2-handed sword. Also, items such as rope, which
can be condensed into the required size, can be made and then lengthened.
The object can be held for a maximum of 24 hours, and then must stay in
sphere shape for 1/2 the time it was transformed before it can be transformed
again.
What do you all think? What are some interesting possibilities for this one?
Jim Sisolak
>> (1) Why do all the illusions have areas of effect clearly desgined to
P> A psionist's invisibality acts something like this....
But the illusions don't.
P> Cause you can willingly give up your saveing throw and/or magic
P> resistance.....
that's different...then you suffer the consequences. you should be able to
*see* what's being depicted without being fooled of taking damage.
P> I think there holograms with a tactile mind alteration
P> componet...therefor you are BOTH right...it is a hologram AND it
P> affects the mind...
err, that's exactly what I said (except I disagree about the tactile bit
for low level illusion spells). A hologram+
I never said there was NO mental component, just that the illusions make
more sense if there is also a real image generated.
I consider illusion == real image only
phantasm == mind only
illusion/phantasm == both
I always thought that was the point of the 2 words in the school name.
*shrug*
P> They won't.....Read the rules if you THINK you have been killed you
I meant "kill you" in the sense of "screw up the DM" Sorry. Very poor
choice of words. what if I don't think i've been killed, I just think I've
been wounded. Do I or do I not bleed? If not, the wounds ought to vanish
instantly when I disbelive, or leave the area of affect, or the mage stops
concentrating.
P> merly pass out unconcious.......then wake up later and
P> auto-disbelive....BTW they will see the blood ect as will you but when
They will. Now that's what I have a problem with. The illusion may not
even be directed at them. The caster might not know they are there, and in
any case, the illusion is not "of blood" but "of a monster"
I disallow all illusory damage when I DM: low level ill/phant spells 'cause
no damage, and any attempt to do so results in auto-disbelief. Higher
level spells are semi-real, and harness real energy to actually wound you
-- the cuts in that case would be real and permanent. I've got limits on
the max damage a spell cvan casue (based on level).
This is, I know, not typical practice, so please nobody write to say I'm
not following the PH. That's the point.
>> Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
P> You can't...you also can't lean on a illusionary wall with any force
P> without falling through it....
Well why not? If the illusion can be of a force, and has a tactile
component, and I really feel that sword hitting me, when not the wall?
P> I'd say it vibrates the air....
Wow! Hey someone agrees with me, cool. The problem of course, is that the
illusion is now generating a real force to vibrate the air. If actually
pushes something. Hence it can also push other things...like your hand
when you lean on the wall.....
The only solution I see is to tie the amount of force to the level of the
spell, so you can only injure people or support a person's weight with an
illusory bridge at very high levels. While most people have a problem with
people walking across a Phantasmal Force (or Spectral Force) of a bridge, I
think few would object to a 7th or 8th level illusion that lets you do the
same thing.
--
JS
Rameses Niblick the third
>
> "If you cast Audible Glammer and no one is there, does it make a sound?"
>
>
> JS
Yes.
For one thing, it would be impossible to cast the spell if you
weren't there.
For anohter thing, sound exists whether it is heard or not
Henrik Nordhus
>"If you cast Audible Glammer and no one is there, does it make a sound?"
Not according to Hume....
-----------------------------------------------
Henrik Nordhus __
Hausmannsgt. 34 )^^(
0182 Oslo ^^
NORWAY
Phone : 22207746
E-Mail : Henrik....@hfstud.uio.no
-----------------------------------------------
Poison
>This is assuming that once an illusion is disbelieved that it dissappears.
>(ceases to exist? nah) Someone already mentioned that one can forgo
>their magic resistance and saving throws, but a better rational is to
>say that illusionists have to visualize their illusions, and for the
>weaker spells, continously concentrate on it. Once that magic is shaped
>through whatever imagery the illusionist uses, it almost gains a life of
>its own. Having an illusionist be able to see his illusions is practically
>_necessary_ in order to make good illusions, so it would be reasonable
>to say that they can see them, despite knowing that they are 'illusions'
>and having automatic 'disbelief'.
There's one spell<can't rember which one> that can actually CAUSE
damage even to someone who has disbelived it....it mearly causes half
damage <It's probaly high level.....shadow monsters or something>
>The illusionist doesn't have to know who is _viewing_ his illusions for
>them to work, but he does have to be aware of how that illusion is
>_interacting_ with others in order to keep any incongruities from
>showing up.
I'd say that a mage seeing through a crystal ball, then casting some
kind of Non-Visable magic <like the psionist spells ect...> then the
illusion wouldn't react approitly because the mage makeing it wouldn't
know what was happenign to it...now if they cast a varient of fireball
that can be cast through a scry then the mage has a good chance of
being able to make the magic react approitoy...
>> (6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
>>hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
>>"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
>>BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
>>bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
>>Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
>
>One wonders at the power of illusions. Would the illusionary fire actually
>illuminate anything? Or would you just see flames in the normal darkness?
>I would say you couldn't read (though you may think you should be able to)
>and that the fire would be recognized as magical. Phantasmal Force
>illusions have to be seen to be believed. Could you see an illusion
>(even one of a fire) in pitch darkness? If I could actually illuminate
>things (alteration magic can) with PF, one of the things I would like
>doing is make a blinding flash of light. (But how does one 'disbelieve'
>a blinding flash of light?) Can PF create light? It can create objects
>and creatures, and even visibly transmitted forces that can affect you.
>One could say that you might be able to create the electromagnetic force
>of light, but would the light you could perceive be only the light
>directly from the illusion that has not been reflected (it's not real)
>off of something else? I don't know, you've raised some good questions.
You ever seen a 'true' hologram? I don't mean holograms in little
boxes of plastic or hologram made with mirrors but I DO mean the new
type of holograms made with intersecting lazers that plasmaize the air
in certin fequencies..<it may work like that may not I'm
guessing...but I DO know rthat exist I've seen them> to create
color....well then if the holograms made by magic are that type then
YES you CAN read by their light as they actually produce light....
>But I must say, that when an AD&D character _sees_ an illusion, he is
>not seeing 'altered light that is making the illusion', or even
>'illusionary light', the image is placed magically in his mind, and
>the mind takes for granted that the character's eyes are _seeing_
>the illusion.
umm...nope illusions are holograms pure and simple...if they wern't
they would read like <X number of people in Y area>
>That's very true. In typical fantasy fiction, illusions would be created
>by various combinations of alteration and charm magic, and any other
>combinations you could manage that would _trick_ someone or give the
>_illusion_ of something. But in AD&D, true illusions are not real in
>any way, they directly affect your mind. An 'alteration' illusion
Does it say anywhere in the book that the spell group "illusion"
affects the mind? I though that that weas the province of the
'phantasmal' groups....therefor illusion could be legitamatly said the
be a subset of alteration magic that can't cause 'REAL' solid
objects...
>would be an indirect illusion, the actual physical manipulation of
>light and sound. There would be no way to 'disbelieve' under the
>normal game mechanics, you would be even more forced to notice some
Sure there is....if you are at all suspeciuos then you can doubt the
magic, then you can notice the inconstiancies much mre easily... then
you look at the illusion in 'another' way and see it for what it
really is...you know that you have a blind spot in your eye? It's in
the lower right corner of your right eye and lower left of your left,
well close an eye...can't see it can you? That's because your brain
automaticly 'fills in' what's missing with what it supposes shoudl be
there...no magic is acting on your brain that's jut what it
does...similar to the roateing box illusion where 2 boxes pass through
eachother, your brain alters what it sees to acomadate what it THINKS
it SHOULD see....Same could be for magical illusions...you don't
actually 'feel' the heat but your brain knows that you should be
feeling the heat and thus makes you think your feeling heat, or a wall
ect...no magic from the mage other than to create the illusionary
dragon/fireball is needed, for instance illusions could legitamitly be
said to make light appear from the illusionary monster, but the magic
wouldn't be able to proudce enough light to make it compleatly
realistic therefore your brain is counted upon to fill in the dimness
of the image to fit what it thinks should be there... I.E. shadow
monster spell, if you disbelive you still see shadow monsters but they
appear to be see through ect, if you DON'T disbelive then your mind is
assumed to have filled in what the magic couldn't produce, but you
still see SOMETHING because there's real light being made appear where
the monster is, just not enough to make ti appear compleatly and
totaly realistic...see what I'm getting at? the magic dosn't affect
your brain directly, it just makes it a LOT easier for your brain to
'fill in' what the magic couldn't produce....
>Another thing you have to realize, is that illusions play on your
>'expectations' quite a bit to be effective. If you were to muffle
>your ears, you would expect your hearing to be affected, and by
>Elminster, it probably would. If you closed your eyes, would you
>still see the illusion because it's "directly affecting your mind"?
>
>Of course not. Could that illusion still affect you?
>If you believe it, yes.
Goes directly along wiht my idea of illusons...
an illsuion is a REALLY weak alteration power, it would create some
real sound but it would depend on your gullability to make you think
it was the right volume...I.E. the dragons roar would really be a
pussycat's meow but your mind would scale up the volume to fit it's
expactations, even to the point of makeing you wince in pain...
Poison
> So, if the caster create the illusion of a ogre attacking a group, how
>can he make the illusion react to every blow of, let say, the four
>fighters? Unless he is in a good spot to see almos everything, he will
>miss creating the illusion of a blow at the right spot (or good length
>of wounds, etc.) of every attackers.
Depends...can the mage see all the blows struck aginst the orc? If I
were the mage I'd have the orc appear to die if only so the damage
already scored aginst the fighters would not be disbelived too.... Of
course if the mage CAN see every blow struck aginst teh fighter then
he can make it react approitly <I'm assumeing that anyone in a medevil
setting would have seen enough people killed with swords to know what
a wound should look like>
Of course if it's behind a hill....THEN HOW THE HELL CAN THE MAGE
MAINTAIN THE ILLUSION??????I.E. a mage not being able to see the
illusion he creates makes the illusion walk over a pit filled with
vipers or walk THROUGH another person ect...talk about an easy
autodisbelive...
> So, in my example, if three attackers had hit in the same round, they
>would have realise that it took a couple of second to see the wounds
>that they had inflicted in the ogre. This will give them a clue that
>it is an illusion.
Hmm.. a couple of seconds? Your wizards think awafuly slow....it might
take 1/4 of a second to imagine a sword cut.
> Finally, i will add that if the caster have never seen the effect of
>an exotic weapon (what's a shuriken???) or a spell (one that ame from
>the great net spellbook???), each person that knew the effect of the
>weapon or spell can make an intelligence check at +1.
Hmm...pointy weapon with a handle....I'd say it makes a the same kinda
cut a pointy weapon with a handle I know of would make....<of course
if the wepon has a magic power...like all wounds it makes appear
blacked and burt and the wizard dosn't know this then the sword blow
wouldn't appear very realistic...>
Poison
>> "The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent - unless the
>> spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
>> or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
>This begs the question "How can the caster make the phantasmal
>opponent react appropriately if it vanishes at the moment it is
>hit?"
This begs the question "How the hell have you lived so long without a
single brain cell in your brain?"
THE KEY WORD IS UNLESS!!!!!!
UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!
UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!
UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!UNLESS!!!!!
That word means that so long as the wizard makes the illusion react
approitly it never vanishes....
>I don't believe it is possible, especially given the fact that the
>caster will not have a clear enough view of the melee to see what
>is happening at all times. By the time the caster, who will have
>minimal knowledge of battle skills in the first place (*), realizes his
>creation has been hit(**), it will be too late to do anything about it.
The spell obviously allows the mage some kind of divination ability,
otherwise how could he make the illusion walk over ground without
makeing it walk *THROUGH* a hill rather than over it...Even a compleat
moron like you knows that when struck by a weapon you bleed and
cringe, that's all a wizard needs to know as he's probal been hit by a
few swords himself.....
Poison
> P> I think there holograms with a tactile mind alteration
> P> componet...therefor you are BOTH right...it is a hologram AND it
> P> affects the mind...
>err, that's exactly what I said (except I disagree about the tactile bit
>for low level illusion spells). A hologram+
I didn't mean low leel illusions...I ment high level illusions....
> P> They won't.....Read the rules if you THINK you have been killed you
>I meant "kill you" in the sense of "screw up the DM" Sorry. Very poor
>choice of words. what if I don't think i've been killed, I just think I've
>been wounded. Do I or do I not bleed? If not, the wounds ought to vanish
>instantly when I disbelive, or leave the area of affect, or the mage stops
>concentrating.
Depends.....you DO think your bleeding and if you suffer enough
illusionary damage to make you think you've been killed then it's
'assumed' that you think you've been killed when you suffer enough
damage to go below 0hp...basicaly it's assumed that your players know
when they've been hit enough to die....
> P> merly pass out unconcious.......then wake up later and
> P> auto-disbelive....BTW they will see the blood ect as will you but when
>They will. Now that's what I have a problem with. The illusion may not
>even be directed at them. The caster might not know they are there, and in
>any case, the illusion is not "of blood" but "of a monster"
Yes....and the mage extend to illusion to cover the blood on the
fighter...
> >> Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
> P> You can't...you also can't lean on a illusionary wall with any force
> P> without falling through it....
>Well why not? If the illusion can be of a force, and has a tactile
>component, and I really feel that sword hitting me, when not the wall?
NO, you would think you felt the wall, as you would think you felt the
bridge, but when you tried to lean into it you would fall the instant
that your body could no longer support you by itself...
> P> I'd say it vibrates the air....
>Wow! Hey someone agrees with me, cool. The problem of course, is that the
>illusion is now generating a real force to vibrate the air. If actually
>pushes something. Hence it can also push other things...like your hand
>when you lean on the wall.....
depends...if it is a low level spell it just makes you "think" your
hand is being pushed, high level spells really push your hand but NOT
enough to keep you from being pushed through a wall.....
Poison
>On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Kevin Dill wrote:
>> Kevin Erickson <h...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I'm looking for some "new" ideas for illusions. Specifically for
>> >Phantasmal Force. I'm tired of the collasping walls and fireballs. Does
>> >anyone have some unique or strange ideas for this spell?
>>
>> >Thanks!
>> >Kevin
>>
>Have you ever thought up putting up, rather than collapsing, walls? Good
>for confusing those who are unfamiliar with the area (fake open pits are
>another good way to discourage pursuit). Along similar lines, and
>inspired by Road Runner cartoons, make a wall look like a hallway or
>cover a real pit [SPLAT!]. :-)
3 mages working toghter.....a ill. mage RUNS through an ill. tunnel
where a wall is, in this case I'd make the pc's save for both in one
roll because if you belive in one your MUCH mor likely rto belive in
another....then SPLATTY goes the party when it runs full tilt into a
wall...<VEG>
Poison
Not TERRIBALY powerful for what it is...provided the DM uses his
judgment and the players arn't munchkins...
no bridges...mabey an expandable boat....a tent....
food?
water container...
Mark W Brehob
: pbr...@MAIL.ATCON.COM (Patrick Breton) wrote:
: Depends...can the mage see all the blows struck aginst the orc? If I
: were the mage I'd have the orc appear to die if only so the damage
: already scored aginst the fighters would not be disbelived too.... Of
: course if the mage CAN see every blow struck aginst teh fighter then
: he can make it react approitly <I'm assumeing that anyone in a medevil
: setting would have seen enough people killed with swords to know what
: a wound should look like>
:
A PF gives no tactile illusion. I would say that the fighters attacking
the ogre would not feel themselves hitting the ogre. Most would then
disbelive the illusion.
Try a spectre. "Your blow passes though it, it is seemingly unharmed".
Granted you won't do any damage with the spectre (I mean I don't think
a PF should do more than KO someone out of fear) but you can probably
keep a lot of folks (especially PCs with that "more fear of level-drain
then death mentaility") at bay.
The best overall illusions are ones that coverup something. You want to
impress the population? "Polymorph" someone into a dog. (drop the illusion
when you cast your "spell") (Stolen from Myth Adventures).
Everyone says that they would disbelive if a chasm opened up in front
of them. So create an illusion over a chasm. Even after the spell stops
some disbelieving soul might be tempted to do something dumb.
Covering pits, creating the illusion of stairs or a bridge, or
"improving" the look of some piece of art work are all fun uses
of PF. Only rely on sight.
I do like the mirror imageing of a party member, or better yet,
an illusion of the party moving _quietly_ into an ambush. Ambush happens,
they probably hurt each other a bit, they you ambush the ambusher.
Also if an IPF is allowed to imitate a talking person one can ask play games
where the caster hangs around with his/her "boss". The illusonary person
will be the one remembered.
Out of ideas for now.
Mark
Wayne Alexander
Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Brown) frantically frothed:
> >web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) stated:
>
> >>Actually, the illusionary monster will dissapear the first time it is
> >>hit, as per spell description. Not sure if I'd make it AC10 or the
> >>same AC as the monster, however.
> >
> > Ubiquitous, I recall someone saying something to the effect of
> >
> > >Bone up on your reading comprehension, boy, before you make an even
> > >bigger ass of yourself.
> >
> > I see you haven't taken your own advice yet. Allow me to give
> > you some step by step instructions to assist you in the matter.
>
> [ What Mr. Brown learned in the remedial english class he's taking ]
> [ this year was deleted as part of "be nice to 'tards week". ] ]
>
> I've played long enough to know the rules, but I'll repeat it for
> the de-pantsed one's sake:
>
> > spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
> > or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
>
> This begs the question "How can the caster make the phantasmal
> opponent react appropriately if it vanishes at the moment it is
> hit?"
>
> caster will not have a clear enough view of the melee to see what
> is happening at all times. By the time the caster, who will have
> minimal knowledge of battle skills in the first place (*), realizes his
> creation has been hit(**), it will be too late to do anything about it.
>
>
> (**) As determined by the illusion's AC, whatever the hell that may be.
> As with the various shadow monster spells, I'd do the same.
>
> --
> "I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
elemental. Since those can only be hit by magical weapons, i can simply
let the weapon through the creature without harmful effect.
Lawrence R. Mead
Michael Brown (mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
: From: I170...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU (Phase)
: >The illusionist could also have the illusion change so that it
: >appeared that the falling character fell through rotten wood,
: >and the illusion of the rest of the bridge was still there, ready
: >to dupe other party members.
:
: Ooohoo! That is _clever_.
: -Michael
:
It is indeed. Here is one I put into a very deadly off-world dungeon.
Character group is crossing a corridor with spots of very paper thin
flooring that looks normal (it is not illusory). One character falls
through a thin spot and 10 feet below into a pool of water. The rest
of the party sees (programmed illusion) him fall into a smoky pit of
acid and the body quickly dissolve (in reality, he is just unconsious
and floating, to be eaten by sharks after abandonment).
DMGorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead (lrm...@whale.st.usm.edu)
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION ! ESPOUSE ELUCIDATION !
http://www.usm.edu/usmhburg/sci_tech/phy/mead.html
Phase
sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) writes:
Won't argue with every point, because we're coming from different
assumptions and have already argued. hehe.
> P> merly pass out unconcious.......then wake up later and
> P> auto-disbelive....BTW they will see the blood ect as will you but when
>
>They will. Now that's what I have a problem with. The illusion may not
>even be directed at them. The caster might not know they are there, and in
>any case, the illusion is not "of blood" but "of a monster"
You don't gawk at your wounds in the midst of battle, but with illusionary
damage you are feeling pain _psychosomatically_ and take it for granted
that you are wounded. When you do realize you're not wounded, that's
grounds for a decent save or automatic disbelief right there.
My DM actually made PF illusions stronger than I thought they actually
should be. I accidently burned a party member with a fireball (because
the DM assumed I wanted to mimic the spell Fireball and its size) and
had the character 'convinced' that he was burned. Temporary mental
problem there.
>This is, I know, not typical practice, so please nobody write to say I'm
>not following the PH. That's the point.
> >> Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
>Poison> without falling through it....
>
>Well why not? If the illusion can be of a force, and has a tactile
>component, and I really feel that sword hitting me, when not the wall?
same as the illusion actually _being_ solid. Applying force to an
illusionary wall would reveal it for an illusion, but AD&D illusions
are powerful enough that a duped person will *subconsciously* provide
their own 'resistance.' A person can't walk on an illusionary bridge
because they can't 'trick' themselves into not really putting their
weight on the bridge, just like they can't keep a thrown rock from
flying through an illusionary wall. If they were to put their hand
on the bridge, it would *feel* like it was real. But if someone was
to push their hand down, it would go right on through.
Alteration magic could not accomplish this, because any psychosomatic
and subconscious responses to such an illusion is not as strong, because
the mind is not being as directly manipulated. It would be a hologram
in every sense of the word, unless you also used the alteration magic
to make the area occupied by the illusion more *dense* to simulate
resistance.
> P> I'd say it vibrates the air....
>
>Wow! Hey someone agrees with me, cool. The problem of course, is that the
>illusion is now generating a real force to vibrate the air. If actually
>pushes something. Hence it can also push other things...like your hand
>when you lean on the wall.....
fake sound coming from the caster's direction."
Phase
None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one (Poison) writes:
>There's one spell<can't rember which one> that can actually CAUSE
>damage even to someone who has disbelived it....it mearly causes half
>damage <It's probaly high level.....shadow monsters or something>
conjure materials from the Demi-Plane of Shadows, which are quasi
real in the Prime Material plane. There is a lot of inconsistencies
with the AD&D school system.
>You ever seen a 'true' hologram? I don't mean holograms in little
>boxes of plastic or hologram made with mirrors but I DO mean the new
>type of holograms made with intersecting lazers that plasmaize the air
>in certin fequencies..<it may work like that may not I'm
>guessing...but I DO know rthat exist I've seen them> to create
>color....well then if the holograms made by magic are that type then
>YES you CAN read by their light as they actually produce light....
own radiance. Holograms that are as useful as what you see in the
movies have yet to be developed. You may be able to simulate a
hologram using Alteration magic, but it would have to be excedingly
complex in order to counter the disruptions caused by vibration and
unrelated light sources. Tweaking a person and using all the wonderful
abilities of their mind against them is much easier.
>umm...nope illusions are holograms pure and simple...if they wern't
>they would read like <X number of people in Y area>
Phantasmal Killer when it was sent after someone, and you would still
have to 'tap' into someone's mind to get spells like Spook and stuff
to work. Phantasmal Force and Audible Glamour use the same principles
from the Illusion/Phantasm school to work, so you can't say that PF
illusions are holograms because you can't make a hologram of a sound
as well.
As for your Area of Effect argument, consider the following:
There is a rune or glyph, that causes anyone who glances at it to fall
asleep. It does this by doing something to the victim's mind. The Area
of Effect is not 'X persons in Y range.' It is 'whoever looks at me.'
Now, let's consider Phantasmal Force. The Area of Effect given is where
you can place the illusion (not the area in which people are susceptable
to the illusion.) Now, you are 'placing' something somewhere, so let's
go ahead and say you are placing 'magic' in that area, somewhere in the
Area of Effect. Furthermore, like the rune mentioned above, let's say
that anyone who 'views' that magic is affected mentally.
In this case, rather than having the victim go to sleep, the victim
is duped into seeing something that is not there.
>Does it say anywhere in the book that the spell group "illusion"
>affects the mind? I though that that weas the province of the
>'phantasmal' groups....therefor illusion could be legitamatly said the
>be a subset of alteration magic that can't cause 'REAL' solid
>objects...
Illusion part is what manipulates the senses, and the Phantasm
part is what manipulates everything else, brain-wise.
I gathered this from a post on how various schools could be used
to create Invisibility type magic. I believe Michael (mikeyb)
wrote the following:
: Phantasmal: Onlookers are tweaked into ignoring the presence
: of the invisible person. Looking elsewhere at
: the last minute, or just plain not-noticing.
: Illusionary: Onlookers' senses (eyes) are "erased" with respect
: to the wizard, like phantasmal force working
: to negate, rather than create.
: Illusion/Phantasm: both above effects at once.
: Alteration: The user is made transparent through a polymorph-
: like effect, can be seen through like crystal
: or clear fluid.
: Alteration: Direct manipulation of real light; ie- bending
: of light waves around the caster predator style.
: Enchantment: Target acquires the "property" of unseeability.
: Light goes right through it/around- who knows?
: "It's magic"!
<snip: He was saying how the mind would fill in the blanks basically>
The Illusion part of Phantasmal Force is limited to visual illusions
in this case. Not much is 'added' (though the duped character would
make some assumptions) but with the Phantasmal part of the spell,
much is 'ignored.'
>>Another thing you have to realize, is that illusions play on your
>>'expectations' quite a bit to be effective. If you were to muffle
>>your ears, you would expect your hearing to be affected, and by
>>Elminster, it probably would. If you closed your eyes, would you
>>still see the illusion because it's "directly affecting your mind"?
>>
>>Of course not. Could that illusion still affect you?
>>If you believe it, yes.
>Goes directly along wiht my idea of illusons...
>an illsuion is a REALLY weak alteration power, it would create some
>real sound but it would depend on your gullability to make you think
>it was the right volume...I.E. the dragons roar would really be a
>pussycat's meow but your mind would scale up the volume to fit it's
>expactations, even to the point of makeing you wince in pain...
in most aspects. If I created a 'real' pussy cat meow with Alteration,
one would have to be REAL REAL gullible to believe that was a dragon
roar, even if it were coming from what looked like a Dragon. But with
Audible Glamour, where the 'real' sound is a weak imitation, it affects
the mind in a MUCH more effective way via Illusion/Phantasm, or direct
sense manipulation. Seeing an illusion in one's _mind_ is much more
effective than seeing a _hologram_ that really exists in some aspects.
You are more likely to notice flaws in a _pure_ Alteration illusion
than in one that makes use of the Phantasm school combined with
Illusion.
mad...@trip.net
>Okay, I hope this doesn't exist....
Then why did you make it up? :) Sorry.
>Wen found, this item is usually a sphere... about 1' in diameter, and weighing
>around 5-10 pounds. When held, the holder can concentrate and change it into
>any shape that they please. Once concentration stops, it becomes a sphere
>again. The object always retains it's riginal weight, and the object that
>it turns into must fit into a 5'x5'x5' cube. Therefore, a short sword
>could be formed, but not a 2-handed sword. Also, items such as rope, which
>can be condensed into the required size, can be made and then lengthened.
>The object can be held for a maximum of 24 hours, and then must stay in
>sphere shape for 1/2 the time it was transformed before it can be transformed
>again.
>What do you all think? What are some interesting possibilities for this one?
Two questions:
1) How long does it take to form an object?
2) Can the object be complex, with moving parts?
If you can form complex objects quickly, then you could make a musket/pistol
that fires very fast, as you re-form it into a loaded weapon after discharging
the previous form. Hell, make a multi-barreled musket!
Other questions:
3) Can the object be consumed? For instance, if you turn the sphere into a
bowl of ice cream, eat the ice cream, and stop concentrating, what happens?
Or, what if you form the sphere into a candle, and then burn the candle?
4) Can you use the sphere to form the same object? Not the same object *type,*
but the _exact same_ object. For instance, could you use the sphere to create a
sheet of parchment, draw a map on the parchment, and then turn it back into a
sphere, only to form the sphere back into that map?
Grin on,
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Afreau Madde "Stark raving sane since 1972"
mad...@trip.net @8)
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through
the leather straps."
-- Emo Phillips
Jim Sisolak
"POI" == Poison <None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one> writes:
POI> damage to go below 0hp...basicaly it's assumed that your players know
POI> when they've been hit enough to die....
I asked if I was dripping blood, though, and whether the wounds vanish when
the spell ends. We're assuming I didn't die, nor thought I died.
Do I bleed?
>> The caster might not know they are there, and in
>> any case, the illusion is not "of blood" but "of a monster"
POI> Yes....and the mage extend to illusion to cover the blood on the
POI> fighter...
(1) There should be a time lag while the caster compensates....that's
another save at the very least. If the caster isn't watching me, it should
be auto-disbelief.
(2) What about illusions with no thermal component (PF and IPF don't have
it). Under those spells, the temperature of the blood could not be right,
as it runs down my leg, EVEN IF the mage was compensating. Disbelief
again.
There are many more. the consequences mount up *way* to fast for the mage
to keep track.
So....we could assume the *spell* compensates automatically, BUT that's an
awful lot for 1st-3rd level spells to manage (multiple, compounding
inconsistencies in multiple minds with no definite range limit [illusion
has a limited area, but anyone in line of sight sees me "bleeding"]).
I conclude that 1st-3rd level illusions are essentially useless for causing
damage. They simply fail to fool anyone who hit them or gets hit by them.
YMMV.
No adding a measly hologram would not fool any more people, not increase
the power of the spell, but it would at least allow the spell/mage to
produce ONE effect (the image of blood) instead of having to produce
effects in many minds all at once.
POI> NO, you would think you felt the wall, as you would think you felt the
POI> bridge, but when you tried to lean into it you would fall the instant
POI> that your body could no longer support you by itself...
Which should be a dead giveaway when a sword hits me....no resistance when
I push back. That was the point. Since I don't let people cross illusory
bridges, I don't let them get fooled when fighting illusory monsters.
P> I'd say it vibrates the air....
>> Wow! Hey someone agrees with me, cool. The problem of course, is that the
>> illusion is now generating a real force to vibrate the air. If actually
>> pushes something. Hence it can also push other things...like your hand
>> when you lean on the wall.....
POI> depends...if it is a low level spell it just makes you "think" your
But it really DOES push the air. You just said so.
POI> hand is being pushed, high level spells really push your hand but NOT
POI> enough to keep you from being pushed through a wall.....
Audible Glammer is not high level....if it can push a little, so should all
such spells.
--
JS
Michael Brown
sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) wrote:
> (1) Why do all the illusions have areas of effect clearly desgined to
>effect should be something like X people within Y yards of the caster.
The area of effect delineates the physical extent to which
the caster can move an illusionary effect about - or the
largest area he can imbue with mind-altering enchantments.
> (2) Home come people very far away, hidden from the caster, those who
>disbelive, or those just plain (immune to / protected from) illusions can
>still tell what all the fuss is about? If they *can't* really tell, as in
>the case of Phantasmal Killer, then what happens when you "disbelieve" -
>does the thing just vanish? All these illusions of dead mages I've seen in
>modules (the ones that appear and speak to/threaten/annoy the party) - if
>the party all saves, then they don't get the message?
Depending on one's school of thought, a disbelieved illusion
is either:
1) still sensed - but with no power to harm the character
2) vanished completely from that person's senses since it was all fake
3) "reduced" to a faded shadow of its former intensity (a la
audible glamer or shadow monsters).
I prefer 1 or 3, depending on the spell and purpose.
> (3) How do Svirfneblin illusionists ever see a damn thing they cast,
>since they're immune?
See above. Further, the caster has some manner of intimate linkage
with the illusion spell (they require concentration, after all).
Also, it stands to reason that "driving" the spell is a rather
different mental process than being tricked by one into reacting.
> (6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
>hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
>"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
>BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
>bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
>Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
There is no real light, you can't read your book. Isn't that
strange . . ? Yes - if a player is in this situation, and
protests, then he'll get a save to disbelieve (or automatic).
Unless the fire was spectral-force or better quality, its
strange lack of heat radiation would further compound the issue.
Moral of the story- illusionary fire is best used in quick bursts,
before someone catches on that it isn't illuminating anything
but your own retinas.
>Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
>not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
>the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
>off me or they won't, which is it?
Illusory damage is psychosomatic, coupled with 'mental shock' or
its equivalent. Illusion inflicted wounds will bruise, swell, and
even blister. The character will feel all the pain of a 'real'
wound. However, once the character is free of the spell and knows
it was false, he will also 'know' he won't be hurt, so the body
will repair itself of these symptoms. . . illusionary damage is
temporary- no real damage is done. It's all in the mind. However,
if a person is 'shocked' to the point where he thought he has died,
he passes out and may die of fright, literally -otherwise he
wakes up later with a clear head. Moral- it is best to use
very lethal illusions, for it is something of an all-or-nothing
enterprise.
As to visuals . . . a smart wizard will control his illusion spell
(in the area of effect) well enough to paint wounds on his targets,
and have them appear to be wearing rent armor, bleeding wounds,
etc. All this will dissappear when the spell ends, of course.
>Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
Because there is *nothing* real about an illusionary anything.
Just because it makes you feel like it is stone, and looks like it,
doesn't mean there is any stone there. Illusions for the body
to (subconsciously) support his belief system; a person just
leaning on a wall will actually hold himself up with his legs,
and so on . . but there is no way for someone to levitate his
way across a fake bridge, if you see my meaning . . .
>Do illusions which make noise actually vibrate the air, or is this a purely
>mental conveyance of sound?
Mental conveyance, although some illusions such as audible glamer
use a very small 'real' framework which the larger effect is
"hung" upon.
Moral of the story: Nothing Illusionary Is Real. Not the light,
not the sound, not the smells, not the forces, etc.
>a Silence 15' radius spell will be *dead giveaway* for any illusion with
>sound
Yes- unless the caster is smart enough to alter things.
>-- heck just cover your ears, if the sound isn't muffled, it's an
>illusion.
Ditto. On the other hand, this is a "personal" thing and if you
are hearing the illusion now, then you are believing it, as well,
so you will probably hear less volume if you do something to make
you think you will . . . confusing! Let's just say that if
someone closes his eyes and covers his ears and starts chanting
"it's not real, it's not real" then it may work. But just
covering up the ears is too simple to pierce an illusionary sound.
>If there is no real sound, the NO ONE beyond the area of effect
>should hear anything (step into the room, hear dragon roaring, step out and
>hear nothing...hmmmm).
Illusions (in an area) are able to be perceived by all those who
can lay senses on the AOE - even those outside it, so this will not
reveal falsehood. Illusions use perception of their dweomer area
as 'bridges' into the mind. Note that there are spells (such as
audible glamer, IIRC) that may only create perceived sound in a
given area, and there are schools of thought on phantasmal forces
that suggest that you only 'sense' the spell if you have (note-
not 'can', but *have*) _seen_ the AOE. Someone who ran the spell
this way would thus run the opposite as above (hear nothing, open
door, hear nothing, *look* inside - Hear Dragon!!!, run away,
still hear dragon since illusion has you now . . )
-Michael
Jim Sisolak
"P" == Poison <None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one> writes:
P> There's one spell<can't rember which one> that can actually CAUSE
P> damage even to someone who has disbelived it....it mearly causes half
P> damage <It's probaly high level.....shadow monsters or something>
Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic. They are quasi-real, and they say
specifically that they tap a real energy source to inflict the damage.
Which is to say, a Demi-Shadow illusion of a fire spell will actually,
permanently, and for real, start fires, evaporate water, and burn things.
--
JS
Poison
mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Brown) wrote:
>> (2) Home come people very far away, hidden from the caster, those who
>>disbelive, or those just plain (immune to / protected from) illusions can
>>still tell what all the fuss is about? If they *can't* really tell, as in
>>the case of Phantasmal Killer, then what happens when you "disbelieve" -
>>does the thing just vanish? All these illusions of dead mages I've seen in
>>modules (the ones that appear and speak to/threaten/annoy the party) - if
>>the party all saves, then they don't get the message?
> Depending on one's school of thought, a disbelieved illusion
> is either:
> 1) still sensed - but with no power to harm the character
> 2) vanished completely from that person's senses since it was all fake
> 3) "reduced" to a faded shadow of its former intensity (a la
> audible glamer or shadow monsters).
> I prefer 1 or 3, depending on the spell and purpose.
So do I:) Actually I perfer 3 more....fits in with my
'mind-assumption' philophsy about illusions....
>> (6) Okay. Suppose it's night and we cast an illusion of a big fire. No
>>hologram. Thus it sheds no actual light -- people only think its
>>"brighter" in their minds (forget about the heat for this one). Fine, but
>>BEFORE the illusion it was too dark to read, and NOW, I think it's plenty
>>bright, so I take out a book and start reading. What the hell do I see?
>>Sounds like auto-disbelief at this point; awfully fragile illusion.
> There is no real light, you can't read your book. Isn't that
> strange . . ? Yes - if a player is in this situation, and
> protests, then he'll get a save to disbelieve (or automatic).
> Unless the fire was spectral-force or better quality, its
> strange lack of heat radiation would further compound the issue.
Hmmm...I'd say that a fire cast by ANY level spell would produce at
least some light...now it wouldn't be as much as you would expect such
a fire to produce but it would be enough to let you see the book and
see the VAUGE outlines of letters on the page...now if you knew the
spell was an ill. you wopuld probaly not be able to read the book but
if you thought the ill. was real you would get a saveing throw vs wis
or int modified by weather you have read the book before and how well
you know it <this affects how well your subconsice can 'fill-in' the
missing parts to the letters...> if you failed your saveing throw you
would read the book and your sub-concice would 'fill-in' the parts
that arn't illuminated by the illusion....
Of course that AWAFULLY complicated so I'd just say that they were
reading complete gibberish and beliveing that it was what was really
in the book...:)
>>Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
>>not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
>>the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
>>off me or they won't, which is it?
> Illusory damage is psychosomatic, coupled with 'mental shock' or
> its equivalent. Illusion inflicted wounds will bruise, swell, and
> even blister. The character will feel all the pain of a 'real'
> wound. However, once the character is free of the spell and knows
> it was false, he will also 'know' he won't be hurt, so the body
> will repair itself of these symptoms. . . illusionary damage is
> temporary- no real damage is done. It's all in the mind. However,
> if a person is 'shocked' to the point where he thought he has died,
> he passes out and may die of fright, literally -otherwise he
> wakes up later with a clear head. Moral- it is best to use
> very lethal illusions, for it is something of an all-or-nothing
> enterprise.
Hmmm...I agree compleatly <unless it's an illusion of a being capable
of teleportation:) then you have it flash in, hit a few times, then
flash out and they'll think the damage was real the whole time:)>
>
>>Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
> Because there is *nothing* real about an illusionary anything.
> Just because it makes you feel like it is stone, and looks like it,
> doesn't mean there is any stone there. Illusions for the body
> to (subconsciously) support his belief system; a person just
> leaning on a wall will actually hold himself up with his legs,
> and so on . . but there is no way for someone to levitate his
> way across a fake bridge, if you see my meaning . . .
Hmm..I agree..unless the being walking across it has some kind of
inate levitation ability which would kick in sub-concisely to fit what
his mind expects...Like a drow or somesuch....
>>Do illusions which make noise actually vibrate the air, or is this a purely
>>mental conveyance of sound?
> Mental conveyance, although some illusions such as audible glamer
> use a very small 'real' framework which the larger effect is
> "hung" upon.
I'd say ti was very much porpotinal...a dragon's roar woudl 'really'
be the sound of a scretching pussycat scaled up by your mind, a person
talking would be a whisper in their ear, their mind would do the
rest...of course if there's a really loud noise in the proximity that
could drown out a cat's screccth but not a dragon's roar then they
would never hear the roar....I.E. their mind would have nothing scale
up to what it expects so it realizes the truth...
Actually this is an explanition of why some species are immune to
illusions....their minds simply don't work the way our's do...they see
things EXACTLY as they really are bypassing the normal phase of
interpation and alteration that most people have....
> Ditto. On the other hand, this is a "personal" thing and if you
> are hearing the illusion now, then you are believing it, as well,
> so you will probably hear less volume if you do something to make
> you think you will . . . confusing! Let's just say that if
> someone closes his eyes and covers his ears and starts chanting
> "it's not real, it's not real" then it may work. But just
> covering up the ears is too simple to pierce an illusionary sound.
Of course you have to suspect it's illusionary to think to do
something like this...in which case you get a big fat saveing throw
adjustment:)
Poison
sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) wrote:
>"POI" == Poison <None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one> writes:
> POI> damage to go below 0hp...basicaly it's assumed that your players know
> POI> when they've been hit enough to die....
>I asked if I was dripping blood, though, and whether the wounds vanish when
>the spell ends. We're assuming I didn't die, nor thought I died.
>Do I bleed?
> >> The caster might not know they are there, and in
> >> any case, the illusion is not "of blood" but "of a monster"
> POI> Yes....and the mage extend to illusion to cover the blood on the
> POI> fighter...
>(1) There should be a time lag while the caster compensates....that's
>another save at the very least. If the caster isn't watching me, it should
>be auto-disbelief.
Well of course if he isn't watching you....but most of the lower level
spells cease to exist either shortly after or the instant teh mage
stops concretating on them....so if you arn't watching then the ill.
dosn't exist anymore even....
>(2) What about illusions with no thermal component (PF and IPF don't have
>it). Under those spells, the temperature of the blood could not be right,
>as it runs down my leg, EVEN IF the mage was compensating. Disbelief
>again.
Well in an eariler post I expounded a rational <based on RL facts no
less!> that would allow for the fighter's mind to visualize the blood
and thus think it was warm......
>There are many more. the consequences mount up *way* to fast for the mage
>to keep track.
If a LOT of people are attacking it at once mabey....or if say a
fighter was blocking the view of a theif backstabbing the ill...
>I conclude that 1st-3rd level illusions are essentially useless for causing
>damage. They simply fail to fool anyone who hit them or gets hit by them.
>YMMV.
Hmmm..I'd say that if managed very well they could still fool
someone....I'd give an int. or wis. check minus 2 times the number of
blows being struck aginst the ill. to see if the mage can compsentate
fast enough....of course if he dosn't see one of the blows struck
aginst his ill. then it's autodisbelive time...
But even by your rules a lower level ill. can still cause SOME
damage... If they ill. manages to avoid being hit then it can attack
for as long as it wants....
>Which should be a dead giveaway when a sword hits me....no resistance when
>I push back. That was the point. Since I don't let people cross illusory
>bridges, I don't let them get fooled when fighting illusory monsters.
But the monster should at least be able to cause ill. damage aginst
them until it gets hit....BTW not my personal opinion but that's going
by YOUR rules...
>But it really DOES push the air. You just said so.
Yes...but not enough to keep you from falling through the wall if
pushed....
Michael Brown
> = From: None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one (Poison)
: = From: sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) wrote:
:>Which should be a dead giveaway when a sword hits me....no resistance when
:>I push back. That was the point. Since I don't let people cross illusory
:>bridges, I don't let them get fooled when fighting illusory monsters.
You have made a conceptual error. An illusion causes the
*sensation* of pushing - and the victim then pyschosomatically
reacts to this to his best ability (taking illusory damage, holding
himself up against a wall . .). This is why illusions can hurt you-
you literally *feel* the bashing they cause (in your senses and thus
in your mind). But no real forces are produced. You can "push"
an illusion all you want- but what you'll really be doing is
standing there, *thinking* you're pushing, *feeling* the increased
resistance, while 'subconsciously' your body is *not* pushing.
Thus, the illusory bridge is *felt*, even as it isn't providing
any support. Those first moments must be strange - the sensation of
stone under the feet, but you're falling . . .!
:>But it really DOES push the air. You just said so.
>
>Yes...but not enough to keep you from falling through the wall if pushed....
Poison is wrong. Illusions do *not* cause any real forces.
The force sensations an illusion produces are *not* caused
by the spell "pushing" against the target or somesuch, they
are direct manipulations of the victim's sense of touch.
Illusion sound is not produced by vibrating air; it is produced by
the manipulation of hearing . . .
This means that the person leaning on the wall *feels* the wall
because his senses are being manipulated; it isn't exerting
any force of its own. He will fall through the wall when pushed
because he can no longer pychosomatically hold himself against it;
not because some holding-force is overpowered.
-Michael
Michael Brown
From: web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
>I've played long enough to know the rules, but I'll repeat it for
>the de-pantsed one's sake:
> "The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent - unless the
> spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
> or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
>This begs the question "How can the caster make the phantasmal
>opponent react appropriately if it vanishes at the moment it is hit?"
This begs the question "How can people not burst out laughing
at the magnitude of your failures in reading comprehension?"
I certainly am laughing at you. It would have been possible to
correct you politely, had you not waded in, 100% wrong and
demonstrably rude about it. Remember that, the next time you
become denigrating at someone who does not suffer from your
own particular delusions as to what the rules say, despite their
best efforts to explain themselves otherwise. Your interpretation
of mere 'contact' cancelling illusion magic is in direct
contradiction to both the spell descriptions and the illusion
resolution rules. (That means "you are wrong", by the way- I
know you have trouble with reading comprehension).
-Michael, finished with a foolish person
Michael Brown
From: Mike Weber <web...@polaris.net>
:>For dungeon settings : An illusion of a cave-in. Perhaps one falling in
>I believe that would fall under what the PH recomends for "instant death"
>illusions; The victims get to roll a save and then a system shock roll or die.
>Can anyone verify this?
That's what the good book recommends (p 84)- those believing such
an illusion must sys-shock or die of fright. If they pass SS,
then a new save with bonuses is used to determine whether they
shake it off or just faint.
-Michael
Mike Weber
mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Brown) wrote:
>> = From: None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one (Poison)
>: = From: sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) wrote:
>:>Which should be a dead giveaway when a sword hits me....no resistance
>:>when I push back. That was the point. Since I don't let people cross
>:>illusory bridges, I don't let them get fooled when fighting illusory
>:>monsters.
>
>You have made a conceptual error. An illusion causes the
>*sensation* of pushing - and the victim then pyschosomatically
>reacts to this to his best ability (taking illusory damage, holding
>himself up against a wall
Exactly the point I made earlier!
>This is why illusions can hurt you - you literally *feel* the bashing
>they cause (in your senses and thus in your mind).
If you "literally" felt the bashing, it'd be real. I hate the improper
use of that word...
You are correct however, in that illusions can harm one because the
target expects that to happen and unconsciously follows thru with it.
Brett D Altschul
In article <4lp7vg$3...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Michael Brown <mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> Moral of the story- illusionary fire is best used in quick bursts,
> before someone catches on that it isn't illuminating anything
> but your own retinas.
A good illusionist should be able to combine the illusion of light with an
illusion of the surroundings. This is a great trick; create an illusionary
light for a few seconds, complete with an illusionary room around it. After
the light goes out, the characters will beleive that the room they're in is
utterly different than it really is.
This also works for reading. An enemy caster creates illusionary light, so the
characters think they can read the treasure map, ancient scroll, or whatever.
The illusion includes an entirely spurious text on the item. (This is hard to
pull off without good planning and a higher-level spell though.)
> Illusory damage is psychosomatic, coupled with 'mental shock' or
> its equivalent. Illusion inflicted wounds will bruise, swell, and
> even blister. The character will feel all the pain of a 'real'
> wound. However, once the character is free of the spell and knows
> it was false, he will also 'know' he won't be hurt, so the body
> will repair itself of these symptoms. . . illusionary damage is
> temporary- no real damage is done. It's all in the mind. However,
> if a person is 'shocked' to the point where he thought he has died,
> he passes out and may die of fright, literally -otherwise he
> wakes up later with a clear head. Moral- it is best to use
> very lethal illusions, for it is something of an all-or-nothing
> enterprise.
The damage that can be caused by illusions should not necessarily be entirely
unreal. The human mind has impressive powers over the body. The best example
is stigmata, where a handful of incredibly religious and highly suggestable
people actually bleed in the same patterns as Jesus is reported to have bled at
his cruxifiction. The loss of blood actually killed St. Francis of Asisi, the
first person to have stigmata, along with several other people.
Of course, it takes the human body an extended period of time to modify itself
to release blood out of the palms in the real world. However, the effect has
never been quantified, since there are so few stigmatics. In a magical world,
the effect could be nearly instantaneous.
For an interesting example of this idea in a science fiction/fantasy setting,
you might try reading Cordweiner Smith's short story "Think Blue, Count Two."
Demon Sultan of Khaipur
Brett Altschul
Mike Weber
Henrik Nordhus <hen...@hedda.uio.no> wrote:
>For dungeon settings : An illusion of a cave-in. Perhaps one falling in
>the head of pursuiting monsters? I know PF doesn't have sound, but this
>could be added with audible glamer. If you get a load of rocks on your
>head you don't usually stop to check if you hear anything anyway.
Mike Weber
sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) wrote:
><None-...@appriciate.info.on.how.to.get.one> writes:
[ Concerning phantasmal monsters in combat ]
>(1) There should be a time lag while the caster compensates....that's
>another save at the very least. If the caster isn't watching me, it
>should be auto-disbelief.
Especially if you manage to hit it with your weapon.
>(2) What about illusions with no thermal component (PF and IPF don't >have it). Under those spells, the temperature of the blood could not be
>right, as it runs down my leg, EVEN IF the mage was compensating.
>Disbelief again.
Yeah, but how often do you get enough blood squirting on you to notice,
through your clothing and armor, and in the middle of combat?
>There are many more. The consequences mount up *way* to fast for the >mage to keep track.
Perhaps a save every round, possibly with a +1 per round?
>So....we could assume the *spell* compensates automatically, BUT that's
>an awful lot for 1st-3rd level spells to manage (multiple, compounding
>inconsistencies in multiple minds with no definite range limit [illusion
>has a limited area, but anyone in line of sight sees me "bleeding"]).
>I conclude that 1st-3rd level illusions are essentially useless for
>causing damage. They simply fail to fool anyone who hit them or gets
>hit by them. YMMV.
When used in that manner, I tend to agree with you, but they can.
I can't access my books right now, but does the damage go away if
the illusion is disbelieved? I'm pretty sure it does if you "die" from
illusionary damage and make your system shock roll, but other than
that...
>> NO, you would think you felt the wall, as you would think you felt the
>> bridge, but when you tried to lean into it you would fall the instant
>> that your body could no longer support you by itself...
>
>Which should be a dead giveaway when a sword hits me....no resistance
>when I push back. That was the point. Since I don't let people cross
>illusory bridges, I don't let them get fooled when fighting illusory
>monsters.
It's all in their minds. They believe it's real, so they think the damage
is real.
[ Idea that the spell creates actual literal forces not worth
explaining again]
Jim Sisolak
"MB" == Michael Brown <mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU> writes:
MB> You have made a conceptual error. An illusion causes the
MB> *sensation* of pushing - and the victim then pyschosomatically
No, I have chosen to conceptualize the Illusion/Phant school of magic
differently than you have. That is not an error, it is called "DMing"
I was expecting someone to raise this issue, and so my response:
If your sword isn't *really* being pushed, and it's just you reacting as if
it were, then
(1) People who view you should sense something amiss - the motion
will not look natural unless the illusion also has the power to turn
people into professional mimes.
(2) I can't react fast enough to stop my sword in full swing, so
since the illusion doesn't actually push back, my sword *will*
enter it partway, something hard to disguise from my notice.
(3) My "pyschosomaticalic reaction" will not be able to restore my
balance. For example, if I attempt to tackle amn illusionary foe
from behind, no amount of mental trickery is going to prevent me from
landing on my face. I *will* notice that I'm eating dirt, methinks.
All of these apply to a lesser extent in any situation, all of which leads
me to say: it's nearly impossible to have an illusion fake a combat for
longer than 5 seconds without tipping off the enemy UNLESS the illusion
can extert significant real force....unless it's solid.
Note, I'm not advocating giving 1st-3rd level illusions solidity, I thnk
that's over the top. I'm advocating that mages do something more clever
than use them in combat.
MB> in your mind). But no real forces are produced. You can "push"
Then my hand only moves if my muscles move it. That response is easily
distinguished from something *else* moving my hand.
MB> an illusion all you want- but what you'll really be doing is
MB> standing there, *thinking* you're pushing, *feeling* the increased
MB> resistance, while 'subconsciously' your body is *not* pushing.
So I throw an apple at it. Does it actually bounce off or not? If not, I
know its fake, if so, the illusion's pretty damned powerful.
And don't say "you only see it bounce off" because I'm going to pick it up
and eat it next, and if every simple illusion of a rock *also* has to be
able to fool me into tasting apples (not to mention making the real apple
invisible), illusion spells are again too powerful for 1st-3rd level.
MB> :>But it really DOES push the air. You just said so.
>> Yes...but not enough to keep you from falling through the wall if pushed....
MB> Poison is wrong. Illusions do *not* cause any real forces.
Then the sound isn't real sound.
MB> Illusion sound is not produced by vibrating air; it is produced by
MB> the manipulation of hearing . . .
And thus can't vibrate inanimate objects or be stopped by a silence spell
or extend beyond the area of effect of the spell or produce echoes or
become muffled by earplugs.
--
JS
Jim Sisolak
"MW" == Mike Weber <web...@polaris.net> writes:
MW> When used in that manner, I tend to agree with you, but they can.
MW> I can't access my books right now, but does the damage go away if
MW> the illusion is disbelieved? I'm pretty sure it does if you "die" from
MW> illusionary damage and make your system shock roll, but other than
MW> that...
So a phantom monster that everyone keeps telling me can't exert any real
force left a permanent cut in my skin? Interesting. I'll have to have my
mage cast illusions of a stone cutter who leave permanent marks in the
rock.
MW> It's all in their minds. They believe it's real, so they think the damage
MW> is real.
If it isn't real, then why doesn't it vanish when they disbelieve?
--
JS
Jim Sisolak
>> Err...so what exactly *is* illusionary damage? Am I actually bleeding or
>> not? It's the "secondary effects that kill you. Someone who never sees
>> the illusion -- just me after the battle -- will either see blood dripping
>> off me or they won't, which is it?
MB> Illusory damage is psychosomatic, coupled with 'mental shock' or
I'm sick to death of that explanation. That's not enough to produce
deep cuts and cause me to actually bleed. If it can't do that, the
illusion itself will be pretty unbelievable in a combat setting.
MB> its equivalent. Illusion inflicted wounds will bruise, swell, and
MB> even blister. The character will feel all the pain of a 'real'
Yes, but he won't lose a limb or a finger, break a bone, or get a 2 inch
deep cut.
MB> As to visuals . . . a smart wizard will control his illusion spell
MB> (in the area of effect) well enough to paint wounds on his targets,
MB> and have them appear to be wearing rent armor, bleeding wounds,
MB> etc. All this will dissappear when the spell ends, of course.
He won't be able to see all of them all the time. You mean it's enough
that I turn my back on the guy and apply pressure to the wound (he won't be
able to see the cloth to make it turn properly red with blood, so I get to
disbelieve).
>> Then how come i can't walk across illusionary bridges?
MB> Because there is *nothing* real about an illusionary anything.
Look, if you're going to ignore the context in which the question was
asked, don't baother. This was part of "if illusions exter force then X
but if not then Y" argument.
MB> Illusions (in an area) are able to be perceived by all those who
MB> can lay senses on the AOE - even those outside it, so this will not
MB> reveal falsehood. Illusions use perception of their dweomer area
"Lay senses on" with eyes, *maybe* but ears aren't even directional.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. How does the spell know how far away
I am, for instance, to get the volume right?
MB> given area, and there are schools of thought on phantasmal forces
MB> that suggest that you only 'sense' the spell if you have (note-
MB> not 'can', but *have*) _seen_ the AOE. Someone who ran the spell
There are schools of thought that say PF is a hologram and IPF is a
hologram with real sound and SF is a hologram with real sound, real scents,
and a minor heat generation capacity.
--
JS
Michael Brown
From: I170...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU (Phase)
>One wonders at the power of illusions. Would the illusionary fire actually
>illuminate anything? Or would you just see flames in the normal darkness?
A proficient illusionist would include local illumination in
his illusion effect, so that an onlooker would see a fire
lighting-up-a-room (yet, despite all this 'light', he wouldn't
be able to see anything else in there due to the inability of the
spell to actually create light; it only manipulates the eyes into
seeing *it's* visual effects).
Note that, if the AOE of the illusion was "around a corner", then
no-one would see the light from the fire until they had a straight-on
look at it, even if it should, realistically, radiate into the
intersection.
<grin> I just had a nasty idea- an elf, seeing a fire, would probably
cancel his infravision psychosomatically . .. meaning that a cheap
phantasmal force fire in the control of some night-visioned monsters
would effectively blind an elven party to their presence (since they
won't be seen without infravision in the *actual* pitch-darkness -
onlookers will only see the 'fire' . . .) - and make for a nasty way
of being effectively invisible for a while!
>illusions have to be seen to be believed. Could you see an illusion
>(even one of a fire) in pitch darkness?
I say, yes - sensual perception of the area-of-effect is all that is
neccessary to make one vulnerable.
> (But how does one 'disbelieve' a blinding flash of light?)
PF won't make a 'real' flash, but victims can have their eye-nerves
twiddled so that they *perceive* a flash. This could be disbelieved
by doubting the possiblity of it coming into being in the fashion
presented by the wizard, or by noting the lack of alteration in
other things requiring light (though, if done properly, that would
be a hard one to detect as false).
>Can PF create light?
Only the perception of it; in the same vein that it can make
one see a monster that isn't there . .
-Michael
JB
pbr...@MAIL.ATCON.COM (Patrick Breton) wrote:
> What about this:
> Everybody seem to agree that an illusion is suppose to dissapear if it
>is struck be something (The fall in the pit, etc.), "unless the
>caster cause the illusion to react approprietly" by the PH.
> So, if the caster create the illusion of a ogre attacking a group, how
>can he make the illusion react to every blow of, let say, the four
>fighters? Unless he is in a good spot to see almos everything, he will
>miss creating the illusion of a blow at the right spot (or good length
>of wounds, etc.) of every attackers.
>
>(other stuff snipped)
> What do you think?
> P. Breton
Hey, guys, mind if I take a crack at this? I'm new to the newsgroup,
but I love DND, and I'm a devil for details, especially when it comes
to magic and illusions especially.
Okay... first, a Phantasmal Force may be an illusion, but it's an
illusion/phantasm spell, meaning that a good part of it exists only in
the mind of the victim. The regular, run-of-the-mill human mind is
rather creative and can create its own delusions. Humans "see" a
dream, which is basically an illusion inside the mind; it's not light
dancing on the retina. So...
A human who hits an ogre in battle with a longsword, causing, say, 7
points of damage, will immediately and independently believe that that
ammount of damage was caused. (i.e. if the DM says so, the player
believes it.) So the character sees the wound, which is worth about 7
points of damage.
So say three humans cause 30 points of damage. The ogre appears to be
rather heavily wounded. Now, say the ogre doesn't die, and manages to
whack one character for 10 points of damage. Okay, the ogre shouldn't
be standing. The pain of that big log slamming into the ribs makes
this a moot point. Okay, say they inflict 50 points of damage. That's
when they definitely start to really disbelieve.
So say, they "kill" the ogre, and then meet a total stranger an hour
later. Does the stranger "see" the wound? Well, the magic's totally
gone, so no. This is an obvious flaw. But if no stranger is met - only
enemies are met - then the enemies don't care if you "believe" you're
wounded. Although they may not approach if you _don't_ look like
you're on your last legs, with half a dozen wounds.
How 'bout it?
JB
Viola Krings
By the way: how do you handle disbelieving an illusion? I recently heard the
opinion that if I wanted to disbeliev a creature, I had to act as if it were
not there,and therefor would not be allowed to parry it.
How long does it really take?
The same questions arises when I say: "this Fireball is just an illusion."
May I duck _just in case I am wrong_, or does this automatically make
my savingthrow fail?
(I'd say that it's merely the matter of a moment, but the DM obviously wants
do avoid too often appearing disbelief attempts)
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Viola Krings - email: kri...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de - IRC: Damaris |
|http://www.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~krings/engl_index.html /\^..^/\ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
jk...@author.gsfc.nasa.gov
HCS...@uacsc2.albany.edu wrote:
>Okay, I hope this doesn't exist....
>
>Wen found, this item is usually a sphere... about 1' in diameter, and weighing
>around 5-10 pounds. When held, the holder can concentrate and change it into
>any shape that they please. Once concentration stops, it becomes a sphere
>again. The object always retains it's riginal weight, and the object that
>it turns into must fit into a 5'x5'x5' cube. Therefore, a short sword
>could be formed, but not a 2-handed sword. Also, items such as rope, which
>can be condensed into the required size, can be made and then lengthened.
>The object can be held for a maximum of 24 hours, and then must stay in
>sphere shape for 1/2 the time it was transformed before it can be transformed
>again.
>
>
>What do you all think? What are some interesting possibilities for this one?
This is similar to an item I created in my campaign, creation clay. It came in
a small clay pot with a rune engraved upon it. You could scoop out some clay,
shape it into a desired object, then touch it with the rune for it to transform.
The party used the creation clay to make crude tools or keys. They once used
it to fix a wagon wheel. A great magic item for a low-level party, not
particularly dangerous, but useful. E-mail for any specific questions.
Happy gaming...
*
********************************************************************************
This is my sig,live with it Rommel
********************************************************************************
*
Ubiquitous
In article <4lq997$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>, mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Brown) says:
>From: web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
>>I've played long enough to know the rules, but I'll repeat it for
>>the de-pantsed one's sake:
>
>> "The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent - unless the
>> spellcaster causes the illusion to react appropriately -
>> or until the wizard ceases concentration upon the spell . . "
>
>>This begs the question "How can the caster make the phantasmal
>>opponent react appropriately if it vanishes at the moment it is hit?"
>
> This begs the question "How can people not burst out laughing
> at the magnitude of your failures in reading comprehension?"
In other words, you don't know.
Hope this helps!
Fizban the Fabulous
HCS...@uacsc2.albany.edu wrote:
>The object always retains it's original weight, and the object that
>it turns into must fit into a 5'x5'x5' cube. Therefore, a short sword
>could be formed, but not a 2-handed sword. Also, items such as rope, which
>can be condensed into the required size, can be made and then lengthened.
Actually, assuming a Two-handed Sword is less than about 8.6 feet long, it
would fit in the 5'x5'x5' cube (along the body diagonal). So if you just
threw that rule in to wedge out the munchkins, you better make it smaller, in
case some of them know math.
Phase
Michael (mikeyb) wrote:
> to affect the mind. Anything that can get its senses on the AOE
> will be vulnerable to its effects (ie; it can be seen from outside
> its AOE- so it stands to reason that whatever mechanism twiddles the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> mind as these spells do is also able to bridge in this fashion.
> Some run the spell as requiring visual perception first).
<snip on how Silence spells would normally not stop illusionary sound>
I've been having a lengthy off-newsgroup debate concerning this
thread, and though I share many of your views concerning illusions
it's my opinion that the Silence spell would keep a person from
hearing an auditory illusion just as surely as a Globe of Darkness
would keep that same person from seeing a visual illusion.
This partly because both effects are from the same school and
should behave the same with respect to magical interference,
and mostly because I have already decided on what the _mechanism_
you mentioned above is for illusions.
Basically, the sensations (sight,sound,touch,etc.) of an illusion
_propogate_ the same way as their real life counterparts. The
magic radiating from a visual illusion has the same behavior as
normal light, it is stopped by such things as walls (so no seeing
a PF illusion through a wall, which would be stupid) and 'closed
eyelids.' The magic of illusionary sound behaves just like real
sound, following the same pathways, so if you're 'out of hearing
range' for the sound that is being imitated, you don't hear it.
Or if you are making the sound of a meowing kitty cat near a
roaring waterfall, you don't hear it. If you are wearing earplugs,
or cover your ears, the illusionary sound is just as 'muffled' as
the real sound would be.
The magic affects you when it reaches your senses, and it behaves
like whatever it is imitating (though it's not real and cannot
_affect_ anything other than _you_.) So it's my opinion, that
if a GofD, or a Silence spell, would stop normal light and sound,
it would close off those same pathways that the magic of an
illusion would travel.
The illusion does not actively go out 'seeking minds' to manipulate
(or some people's arguments that the AOE should be X people at Y
range might hold some water,) rather, it affects anyone who would
'observe' the stimuli had it been real.
On another note, what all do you think psycho-somatic responses
are capable of?
-
Jason Etheridge (Phase FX) ::::::: http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~etheridg
"Love is a foolish gift, but who says fools can't give great gifts?"
-
Michael Brown
From: sis...@trans2.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak)
>No, I have chosen to conceptualize the Illusion/Phant school of magic
>differently than you have. That is not an error, it is called "DMing"
Well, ok - but it is different than the conceptions the rules use.
>(1) People who view you should sense something amiss - the motion
> will not look natural unless the illusion also has the power to turn
> people into professional mimes.
Are you sure? I've practiced swordplay plenty (kendo) without
actually cutting anyone's head off and it looks pretty darned natural
even when you halt a blow. This assumption isn't realistic.
> (2) I can't react fast enough to stop my sword in full swing, so
> since the illusion doesn't actually push back, my sword *will*
> enter it partway, something hard to disguise from my notice.
But who says it is full swing? If you're under the influence of
the illusion, then you'll undermine your power so that you can make
a quick stop. A good swordsman has enough control to stop his
weapon *anywhere*.
Note, a weapon that used its own momentum for attack like a flail
might cause difficulties for the illusion's believability in that
regard (you don't have total control over one of those); though a
smart illusionist will be able to manipulate what 'you' feel and see
the weapon doing (hitting) so that you don't notice that it just
swung right on through space. But this *is* harder to do, and could
lead to giveaways.
>(3) My "pyschosomaticalic reaction" will not be able to restore my
> balance. For example, if I attempt to tackle amn illusionary foe
> from behind, no amount of mental trickery is going to prevent me from
> landing on my face. I *will* notice that I'm eating dirt, methinks.
Yes. As soon as you are 'off balance' with respect to an illusion,
it eats it. May I repeat the much-tired example of the illusionary
wall that you can 'lean' on until you are pushed? This is exactly
the case.
>All of these apply to a lesser extent in any situation, all of which leads
>me to say: it's nearly impossible to have an illusion fake a combat for
>longer than 5 seconds without tipping off the enemy UNLESS the illusion
>can extert significant real force....unless it's solid.
Untrue. That wizard is concentrating for a reason.
>Note, I'm not advocating giving 1st-3rd level illusions solidity, I thnk
>that's over the top. I'm advocating that mages do something more clever
>than use them in combat.
Using illusions just to make monsters is possibly the most basic
use of the magic - it does lack sophistication. Illusion's
power to conceal reality is much more powerful.
> MB> in your mind). But no real forces are produced. You can "push"
>
>Then my hand only moves if my muscles move it. That response is easily
>distinguished from something *else* moving my hand.
Not when your subconscious perceptions are being manipulated.
>So I throw an apple at it. Does it actually bounce off or not? If not, I
>know its fake, if so, the illusion's pretty damned powerful.
The apple will go right through it - though the controller of
the illusion (if aware of the apple) would be able to extend
his illusion to making the apple *seem* to bounce off and bonk
away, even though it is in truth sailing through the illusionary
effect. A controlled illusion will not be easily revealed by
missile weapons, but the idea of using 'probes' that aren't
as keyed to your vulnerable senses is the best way to discern an
illusion. Phant'Force is given away by sonically based probes,
for instance.
>And don't say "you only see it bounce off" because I'm going to pick it up
>and eat it next, and if every simple illusion of a rock *also* has to be
>able to fool me into tasting apples (not to mention making the real apple
>invisible), illusion spells are again too powerful for 1st-3rd level.
I don't recall if any illusion spell provides taste, but I'm sure
the elementary ones don't. Trying to "eat" an illusionary object
would thus reveal its falsehood, although it would possibly seem
convincing until you got your tongue on it. <grin> I can see it now,
a group of experienced adventueres crying "I taste him!" in the
face of unlikely monsters . . . of course, this could have fatal
consequences if they guess wrong.
>And thus can't vibrate inanimate objects or be stopped by a silence spell
>or extend beyond the area of effect of the spell or produce echoes or
>become muffled by earplugs.
Right, halfway. The sound can 'go' beyond the AOE because the AOE
is the source, rather than the extent, of the illusion's ability
to affect the mind. Anything that can get its senses on the AOE
will be vulnerable to its effects (ie; it can be seen from outside
its AOE- so it stands to reason that whatever mechanism twiddles the
mind as these spells do is also able to bridge in this fashion.
Some run the spell as requiring visual perception first).
Silence spells won't block illusory sound (unless the controller is
aware of the dweomer and takes steps maintain the charade).
Earplugs *will* block it because the wearer *thinks* they will
reduce the sound and his perceptions will adjust accordingly
(the same way a person who closes his eyes no longer sees an
illusionary visual effect . . . ). No real echoes could be produced,
but if the spell controller is sophisticated he can certainly cause
echoes to be perceived by his victims. But, that's difficult stuff,
and adds complexity, and the lack of good echoes, etc. are all good
indicators that something is amiss.
Illusionary sound cannot vibrate inanimate objects, though it
could be made to *appear* to with the right visual and tactile
effects added in.
-Michael
Michael Brown
From: c_k...@cc.colorado.edu (Cameron King)
>In the paragraph below, Michael Brown (whom I've been strongly agreeing
>with in this thread) makes a couple of errors I feel should be responded
>to. First of all, taste is a sense which no illusion spell I am aware
>of addresses, but this doesn't mean it is excluded from them, and thus I
>can't imagine how Mr. Brown became "sure the elementary ones don't."
The illusion spells define *exactly* which senses on which they
operate; the absence of affected senses are important keys to
catching a false illusion.
>Secondly, if one couldn't taste the illusionary apple, then Mr. Brown's
>(quite correct, IMO) assertion that one can feel it is ridiculous.
>Simply put, if the brain can be fooled into feeling an apple that isn't
>there, it can just as easily be fooled into tasting it.
I'm not suggesting that taste isn't within the power of illusion
magic; I'm saying that the particular spells that we are discussing
do not generate taste sensations. For instance, the only things
a phantasmal force spell can manipulate are sight and 'force'
(ie; tactile sensations of pressure, etc.). The brain won't be
fooled into hearing, smelling, or *tasting* any effect created
by this spell, even if you are believing it.
The brain can be fooled into 'shock damage' with nothing more than
a visual cue to make one aware of a source, and some pressure sense
to create the sensation of it striking.
A good illusion of food is much more complicated, as it would
require sight, smell, taste, touch/force and touch/*texture*,
as well as thermal issues . . . that's a hard illusion!
-Michael
Mark W Brehob
Michael Brown (mik...@gilligan.ME.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
[Clip]
: do not generate taste sensations. For instance, the only things
: a phantasmal force spell can manipulate are sight and 'force'
: (ie; tactile sensations of pressure, etc.).
This is where I disagree with most of you. Only Spectral Force
creates tactile illusions. If you hit a PF the blow passes
through the illusion. The illusion may react to the blow, but
it will not affect the blow. (Or so is my reading of the spell)
SF is another story. I claim the sense of feeling is effected but
there is still no force. As such one cannot walk over a bridge, nor
will your sword slow when encountering an illusionary object. You
can feel it however. If a character touches a wall it will feel
like it is there. If said char. leans against against said wall he/she
will fall right through. (this is for SF)
Now Shadow illusions do have force. One can lean against them. One
might even be able to cross an illusionary bridge in this case......
(or at least have a shadow illusion carry stuff) (unclear on this one)
Mark "Asleep" Brehob
Michael Brown
From: bre...@cps.msu.edu (Mark W Brehob)
>This is where I disagree with most of you. Only Spectral Force
>creates tactile illusions.
You'd better read up on the spell descriptions again.
>If you hit a PF the blow passes through the illusion.
As long as those interacting with a PF believes in its reality,
it will be impossible for them to physically pass/strike/move anything
through the illusion's area using their own muscular power, as they are
convinced that they are touching something real and psychosomatically
react by stopping motion and registering pressure sensations.
But, the illusion creates no *real* forces and has no substance.
It cannot exert a force. Projectiles (including shoved/tripped
characters!) will not be stopped by the illusory effect.
It only has power over *senses* - which can be rather powerful,
if one is deceived, but it does have limits.
>SF is another story. I claim the sense of feeling is effected but
>there is still no force.
Even PF creates sensations of force (read spell description-
what about "creature, object, or force" is unclear? By what
mechanism do illusory PF monsters cause damage? )
>Now Shadow illusions do have force.
Yes. These are partially real.
-Michael
Cameron King
In the paragraph below, Michael Brown (whom I've been strongly agreeing
with in this thread) makes a couple of errors I feel should be responded
to. First of all, taste is a sense which no illusion spell I am aware
of addresses, but this doesn't mean it is excluded from them, and thus I
Secondly, if one couldn't taste the illusionary apple, then Mr. Brown's
(quite correct, IMO) assertion that one can feel it is ridiculous.
Simply put, if the brain can be fooled into feeling an apple that isn't
there, it can just as easily be fooled into tasting it.
The important thing about *sensing* illusions is that they are
believable. The actual effects are something else. In other words,
I am of the school that says you *feel* the damn bridge even as you
fall through it. You die from the illusory damage because you *think*
you took it, and your brain functions cease. Contrariwise, I once
played an illusionist/thief under a DM who also agrees with me, and
actually healed (that is, actually restored lost HP to) a comrade by
using PF to create the illusion of a "potion" which, the thief said,
had been nicked earlier when the wounded member wasn't looking. This
thief was known to steal party treasure whenever possible, and the
"potion" was conveniently labelled "HEALING DRAUGHTS", so the wounded
member drank it, believed he tasted it, believed he was healed by it,
and *was*.
Some say this is too powerful for a 1st-level spell. I don't agree,
but if that's what you think, the solution is simple: don't play it
that way. But Mr. Brown and I have one view of things, and I think
if you accept what he has said so far, then you must also rule that
illusory apples can be tasted.