Judges Guild Material status
Tim Galioto
Hello all,
Does anyone know what the present copyright status of old Judges Guild
material is?
Who owns it?
Can it be published on the web?
Will it see publication again soon?
I know that Mayfair had picked up the City State of the Invincible
Overlord, and Gamescience grabbed Tegel Manor, but what about the
numerous other releases they had?
Judges Guild had made some quality AD+D material for their time, and I
would hate to see it all fade into obscurity.
Tim G.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Blow ye winds,
Like the trumpet blows;
But without that noise"
-- Jack Handey
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wkmccarthy
I believe Bob Bledsaw still retains the rights to JG material, and it
may not be reproduced over the web without his consent.
Rumors out of Illinois hint there may be a JG revival someday,
with new material and updates of the old stuff. This remains
to be seen, and I haven't heard anything else about this in quite
some time. BTW, JG hasn't faded into obscurity and is still
alive and being sold on rec.games.frp.marketplace in large
quantities. People who enjoy 1st edition would really like
the JG material, and I encourage them to take a look at it.
Those who prefer more 2nd edition style may not find as much
to their liking, though YMMV.
William McCarthy
Wkmcc...@aol.com
ThresholdMURPE
In article <19970709191...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
wkmcc...@aol.com (Wkmccarthy) wrote:
>Rumors out of Illinois hint there may be a JG revival someday,
>with new material and updates of the old stuff. This remains
>to be seen, and I haven't heard anything else about this in quite
>some time. BTW, JG hasn't faded into obscurity and is still
>alive and being sold on rec.games.frp.marketplace in large
>quantities.
I would really like to see this happen. If for no other reason than the fact
that competition is a very good thing. JG materials at least gave T$R *some*
reason to put out quality material, and when JG basically "died" this avenue
of direct competition was lost.
There have been many JG related threads in which many good modules produced by
them have been mentioned. I would love to see a JG website and/or mailing
list. Do either of these exist?
-Aristotle@Threshold
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Robert Moore
ThresholdMURPE wrote:
>
> In article <19970709191...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
> wkmcc...@aol.com (Wkmccarthy) wrote:
> >Rumors out of Illinois hint there may be a JG revival someday,
> >with new material and updates of the old stuff. This remains
> >to be seen, and I haven't heard anything else about this in quite
> >some time. BTW, JG hasn't faded into obscurity and is still
> >alive and being sold on rec.games.frp.marketplace in large
> >quantities.
>
> I would really like to see this happen. If for no other reason than the fact
> that competition is a very good thing. JG materials at least gave T$R *some*
> reason to put out quality material, and when JG basically "died" this avenue
> of direct competition was lost.
>
> There have been many JG related threads in which many good modules produced by
> them have been mentioned. I would love to see a JG website and/or mailing
> list. Do either of these exist?
Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
measurements?), or simplistic room descriptions with the obligatory
monster and treasure.
Some of it was good -- Inferno (which was only half a module, remember),
some of the Treasure Books stuff were very good short adventures
(something we could use more of, I think), and some of those tables were
really useful (out of the kazillion they made, a few had to be, just out
of random chance).
I have the entire JG world map and all the supplements for them --
They're big, and they're random. City name, population, rulers level
and class listed if even that. I suppose it would be useful for people
that feel they can't draw a world map themselves.
All this being said, it would be really neat to see the name "Judges
Guild" in print again. The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves). It also
filled the huge gap in between TSR releases, which in those days was
huge -- 3 or 4 products a YEAR, if you were lucky.
Rob Moore
Lawrence R. Mead
Wkmccarthy (wkmcc...@aol.com) wrote:
: I believe Bob Bledsaw still retains the rights to JG material, and it
: may not be reproduced over the web without his consent.
: with new material and updates of the old stuff. This remains
: to be seen, and I haven't heard anything else about this in quite
: some time. BTW, JG hasn't faded into obscurity and is still
: alive and being sold on rec.games.frp.marketplace in large
: the JG material, and I encourage them to take a look at it.
: Those who prefer more 2nd edition style may not find as much
: to their liking, though YMMV.
: William McCarthy
: Wkmcc...@aol.com
Interesting rumor. I encourage all to look into Judges Guild material.
At its time of printing it was classic stuff with clever ideas anyone
can use. Modules such as Dark Tower, or City State of the Invincible
Overlord are classics.
DMGorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead (lrm...@whale.st.usm.edu)
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION ! ESPOUSE ELUCIDATION !
http://www-dept.usm.edu/~scitech/phy/mead.html
Trevor Dewey
>Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
>was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
>forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
>measurements?),
I can't. I always loved that table.
>All this being said, it would be really neat to see the name "Judges
>Guild" in print again. The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
>it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves). It also
I'd have to disagree here, I think some of JG's better products
were as good or better than equivalent TSR products.
Notably, the City State of the Invincible Overlord still one of the
great RPG City Modules, even now, almost twenty years since it was
released. Better than the terrible (non-EGG) City of Greyhawk (IMHO)
and easier to hack than Waterdeep--though that maybe my FR predjudice
showing :->
And I thouroughly enjoyed some of their better modules (Thieves of the
Fortress Badabaskor and Tegel Manor). Yes the products TSR put
out in the mid 80's (Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Etc. Etc.) far surpassed
the fairly simple dungeon crawl nature of the earlier JG products
yet they retain a charm that many of TSR's products in the last
few years have lacked.
Cheers,
Trevor
--
"But all night he dreamed of his own house and wandered in his sleep into all his different rooms looking for something that he could not find nor remember what it looked like." _The Hobbit_
Paul MacDonald
I'd like to see the campaign hexagon system and the overland stuff
reprinted. Great stuff for free-wheeling plotless games. Some of the
detailed encounters are great scenario hooks as well.
Paul
stephenJ
Robert Moore wrote:
>
> The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
> it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves).
Please! Modules like Inferno, Dark Tower, and the Caverns of Thracia
compare equally with TSR modules of the same time period....
*******************
Was the order to slay given because of the Sign of the Goat found on the
altar of the ancient Roman crypt beneath the Cathedral, or whether the
Dark Man of the Haute Vienne Coven had spoken the Three Words?
Alan D Kohler
In article <5q1003$78l$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, lrm...@whale.st.usm.edu says...
>
>Wkmccarthy (wkmcc...@aol.com) wrote:
>: I believe Bob Bledsaw still retains the rights to JG material, and it
>: may not be reproduced over the web without his consent.
>: Rumors out of Illinois hint there may be a JG revival someday,
>: with new material and updates of the old stuff. This remains
>: to be seen, and I haven't heard anything else about this in quite
>: some time. BTW, JG hasn't faded into obscurity and is still
>: alive and being sold on rec.games.frp.marketplace in large
>: quantities. People who enjoy 1st edition would really like
>: the JG material, and I encourage them to take a look at it.
>: Those who prefer more 2nd edition style may not find as much
>: to their liking, though YMMV.
>: William McCarthy
>: Wkmcc...@aol.com
>
>Interesting rumor. I encourage all to look into Judges Guild material.
>At its time of printing it was classic stuff with clever ideas anyone
>Overlord are classics.
Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
slick box? It may have been JG, but I think I saw a boxed set some time after
the decline of JG.
--
SPAM FILTER NOTICE - REMOVE "REMOVE2REPLY" to reply by email.
Alan D Kohler hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it."
Jack Handly, Deep Thoughts
Tim Galioto
On 10 Jul 1997 00:57:48 GMT, hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net (Alan D
Kohler) wrote:
>Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
>slick box? It may have been JG, but I think I saw a boxed set some time after
>the decline of JG.
It was published by Mafair games. It had a forward letter from E.G.G.
and about 4 or 5 subsequent modules were published to support it.
Inside. It seems Mayfair dropped it and the Role Aides series of AD+D
supplements when TSR withdrew their contract for the use of the
approved AD+D logo. I heard rumor that TSR treated Mayfair pretty
badly in that venture, but I don't have any definate facts to support
that.
Tim G.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How can I believe the Rock of Ages
When I know the age of rocks?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33C3FB...@interaccess.com>,
Robert Moore <robm...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
>was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
>forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
>monster and treasure.
Robert, for those of us that like to develop our own world of politics and
intrigue, this is exactly what we want. Basic modules that fit into any
campaign. There are a lot of us out here that don't need modules that spoon
feed us the entire adventure. We just want a good, basic foundation.
>Guild" in print again. The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
>it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves). It also
>filled the huge gap in between TSR releases, which in those days was
>huge -- 3 or 4 products a YEAR, if you were lucky.
JG material was vastly superior to the T$R products of the last 5+ years.
At least JG didn't try to foist the goddamn Avatar Triology upon anyone and
didn't try to turn Demons and Devils into cartoon villains.
Lawrence R. Mead
Alan D Kohler (hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net) wrote:
: In article <5q1003$78l$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, lrm...@whale.st.usm.edu says...
: >
[snip for brevity]
: >: quantities. People who enjoy 1st edition would really like
: >: the JG material, and I encourage them to take a look at it.
: >: Those who prefer more 2nd edition style may not find as much
: >: to their liking, though YMMV.
: >: William McCarthy
: >: Wkmcc...@aol.com
: >
: >Interesting rumor. I encourage all to look into Judges Guild material.
: >At its time of printing it was classic stuff with clever ideas anyone
: >can use. Modules such as Dark Tower, or City State of the Invincible
: >Overlord are classics.
:
: Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
: slick box? It may have been JG, but I think I saw a boxed set some time after
: the decline of JG.
Don't know. My well-worn copy came in a plastic wrap.
DMgorgon
J. McGuire
[responding to the next message down the thread, since my ISP's news
server is *still* going up and down like a yo-yo]
> On 10 Jul 1997 00:57:48 GMT, hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net (Alan D
> Kohler) wrote:
>
> >Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
> >slick box? It may have been JG, but I think I saw a boxed set some time after
> >the decline of JG.
The only connection Mayfair's slick box and its various add-ons had with
the original City-State was the name. Period. In twenty years of gaming,
I don't think I've ever had a worse disappointment than when I opened
that box. (not only didn't it have any connection to the Judges' Guild
CSIO, it was _terrible_)
-- Jean
Wintertree Software | Remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
THE BIG NEWS: Wintertree now takes credit cards! Plus, we just moved to
New Hampshire and redecorated the website! -- stop by for the details.
J. McGuire
Regarding whether JG material "never came close to TSR quality", that
depends on how you define quality.
It wasn't printed on high-grade paper with color artwork, carboard
folders, etc. The paper was one step up...one small step...from
newsprint, and the artwork pretty much reeked.
*BUT* I don't buy modules for the paper. In general, when I use any part
of a published adventure, I run it maybe once or twice. (more likely, I
read through it a couple of times and snarf good ideas to paste into
whatever I'm running at the time) An awful lot of other people do
exactly the same thing. So, for people who use the modules a handful of
times, it doesn't really matter if they're printed on newsprint or
acid-free archival 100% rag bond.
Now, compare bang for the buck. *THAT'S* where the JG stuff flew miles
past TSR's modules.
Consider the _City-State of the Invincible Overlord._ It came out in
1979 and sold for $8.00. (one of the things I liked about JG: with a few
exceptions, they sold things for an honest dollar amount instead of
weasling with $X.98) The CSIO gave you two huge city maps, one each for
player and DM (both 17" x 22" on heavy paper), two smaller (8.5" x 11")
maps of a dwarven stronghold, and an 80-page guidebook to the city.
In 1980, TSR released _Expedition to the Barrier Peaks_ for the same
price. You got a 36-page pamphlet detailing the adventure, a booklet of
illustrations to show the players, and a map on the inside of the
module's cardboard folder.
The TSR product was certainly prettier. It had color art, all those
pictures, nice white paper, all the flashy production values you could
want.
But...y'know what? I looted Barrier Peaks for what I needed, and stuffed
it on my shelf. It's still there, though the art booklet has wandered
off somewhere over my past dozen moves. The City-State, on the other
hand, is held together with tape, because I've used it to bits. Sure, I
dropped a lot of the sillier stuff...but that's nothing more than a
matter of a difference in campaign style, like any other. I've been
running players through that city, by many names, for longer than some
of the people on this newsgroup have been alive.
So: One year's use for $8.00 vs. fifteen years' use for the same amount.
Seems to me that JG comes out *way* ahead on the 'quality' thing when
you look at it from the bang-for-the-buck point of view.
And remember, the CSIO was one of the earliest JG products. When you
look at later work like the _City-State of the World Emperor_ or _Wraith
Overlord_, the gap just gets wider.
I liked and used, and like and use to this day, the JG products because
they gave me something to do my own thing with, rather than telling me
what to do and how to do it. They put their efforts into what counted
for me -- content, not glitz. I really, really miss Judges' Guild.
<shameless commercial plug>
As for what I'm doing about it, well, if you like JG stuff, watch for
the Creator Packs and Scenario Packs that will be coming out Real Soon
Now for TableMaster. They will have sort of the same feel as some of the
JG stuff (hopefully the _better_ JG stuff!) and similar usefulness --
generic towns, etc., with all of the boring details filled in for you,
and the fun stuff left for you to customize. We'll all get to find out
if there really is a market for this sort of thing still, or if I'd have
been better off spending the past few months bagging groceries.
</shameless commercial plug>
Tim Breen
> As for what I'm doing about it, well, if you like JG stuff, watch for
> the Creator Packs and Scenario Packs that will be coming out Real Soon
> Now for TableMaster. They will have sort of the same feel as some of the
> JG stuff (hopefully the _better_ JG stuff!) and similar usefulness --
> generic towns, etc., with all of the boring details filled in for you,
> and the fun stuff left for you to customize. We'll all get to find out
> if there really is a market for this sort of thing still, or if I'd have
> been better off spending the past few months bagging groceries.
Just don't forget to put in some of the silliness, too, to get the real
feel of the JG products! How about a "wandering drunks" table? <grin>
-- Tim
Personal: http://personalweb.lightside.com/Pfiles/breen1.html
Gaming: http://www.rpga.org/Home.html
To subscribe to the RPGA-Talk mailing list, send a blank message to
requ...@lists.consultantalliance.com with a subject of "subscribe
RPGA-Talk" (no quotes).
Tim Breen
> : Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
> : the decline of JG.
>
City State was published by Judges Guild in a polybag, and by Mayfair
Games as a boxed set.
-- Tim
Robert Moore
ThresholdMURPE wrote:
>
> In article <33C3FB...@interaccess.com>,
> Robert Moore <robm...@interaccess.com> wrote:
> >Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
> >was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
> >forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
> >measurements?), or simplistic room descriptions with the obligatory
> >monster and treasure.
>
> Robert, for those of us that like to develop our own world of politics and
> intrigue, this is exactly what we want. Basic modules that fit into any
> campaign. There are a lot of us out here that don't need modules that spoon
> feed us the entire adventure. We just want a good, basic foundation.
But there was NO foundation, really. I could come up with 5 JG style
modules a day, even when I was 14. They were only slightly better than
nothing -- basically maps and list of monsters and treasure -- and
anyone can make that stuff up. Complex plots are much more difficult
(albiet perhaps more difficult to adapt) to do.
> >Guild" in print again. The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
> >it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves). It also
> >filled the huge gap in between TSR releases, which in those days was
> >huge -- 3 or 4 products a YEAR, if you were lucky.
>
> JG material was vastly superior to the T$R products of the last 5+ years.
> At least JG didn't try to foist the goddamn Avatar Triology upon anyone and
> didn't try to turn Demons and Devils into cartoon villains.
Now you're really comparing apples to oranges. You obviously don't like
the more recent TSR products because you don't like the company or their
style, but to say that their products weren't well-made (and something
can be well-made and still not to your liking, mind you) is just not
clear thinking. I should get out some of my JG stuff and list a few of
the sillier things just to show that JG did stuff farther out of line
than TSR ever did -- and with far less forethought.
Rob Moore
Robert Moore
Trevor Dewey wrote:
>
> In article <33C3FB...@interaccess.com>, robm...@interaccess.com wrote:
>
> >Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
> >was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
> >forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
> >measurements?),
>
So do I. If any of my ex-girlfriends had ever figured out what some of
the notations in my AD&D notebooks were for, I'd have been a dead man.
> >All this being said, it would be really neat to see the name "Judges
> >Guild" in print again. The stuff was fairly good for its day (although
> >it never came close to TSR quality, lets not kid ourselves). It also
>
> I'd have to disagree here, I think some of JG's better products
> were as good or better than equivalent TSR products.
> Notably, the City State of the Invincible Overlord still one of the
> great RPG City Modules, even now, almost twenty years since it was
> released. Better than the terrible (non-EGG) City of Greyhawk (IMHO)
> and easier to hack than Waterdeep--though that maybe my FR predjudice
> showing :->
Of course it was easier to hack than Waterdeep -- there was practically
no information there apart from some NPC affiliations (which I used in
one adventure to make one of my favorite AD&D episodes).
Rob Moore
Trevor Dewey
In article <5q2p20$4dh$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, lrm...@whale.st.usm.edu
(Lawrence R. Mead) wrote:
>Alan D Kohler (hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net) wrote:
>: Wasn't the city-state picked up by some other company who marketed it in a
>: slick box? It may have been JG, but I think I saw a boxed set some
time after
>: the decline of JG.
>
>Don't know. My well-worn copy came in a plastic wrap.
>
>DMgorgon
>--
>
Yes, slick is the word that must be applied to con artists at
Mayfair that came up with their "City State of the Invincible Overlord."
The Mayfair "City State" had nothing in common with the JG "City State".
Bromley and co. should refund any and all (including myself) who were
suckered in by the name.
My advice if you see a Mayfair "City State of the Invincible Overlord"
is to chuck it into the nearest fire. Utter and complete Crap.
Perhaps Mayfair's recent woes (DB's divorce and etc) are karma for
their hubris for putting out the product. They must have known that fans of the
old JG material would buy the product (and some of us did) because
of the name.
Yes, as a previous poster said, one of the greatest gaming
disappointment I've had, ever, was opening that box.
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33C56A...@interaccess.com>,
Robert Moore <robm...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>But there was NO foundation, really. I could come up with 5 JG style
>modules a day, even when I was 14. They were only slightly better than
>nothing -- basically maps and list of monsters and treasure -- and
>anyone can make that stuff up. Complex plots are much more difficult
>(albiet perhaps more difficult to adapt) to do.
Why do you want someone to develop the plot for you? Isn't that the part where
the DM actually invests his own imagination and creativity into the game? Any
idiot DM can take someone else's plot, and follow the numbers in the book that
tell him what order to run the encounters and events in.
>Now you're really comparing apples to oranges. You obviously don't like
>the more recent TSR products because you don't like the company or their
>style, but to say that their products weren't well-made (and something
>can be well-made and still not to your liking, mind you) is just not
>clear thinking. I should get out some of my JG stuff and list a few of
>the sillier things just to show that JG did stuff farther out of line
>than TSR ever did -- and with far less forethought.
Rob, every hardback book I bought from T$R since Oriental Adventure's has
pages falling out and a crappy binding. Every module from the last 3-5 years
has huge margins, a bunch of useless spammy art, and poor editing. I don't
enjoy paying good money for whitespace.
Robert Moore
ThresholdMURPE wrote:
>
> In article <33C56A...@interaccess.com>,
> Robert Moore <robm...@interaccess.com> wrote:
> >But there was NO foundation, really. I could come up with 5 JG style
> >modules a day, even when I was 14. They were only slightly better than
> >nothing -- basically maps and list of monsters and treasure -- and
> >anyone can make that stuff up. Complex plots are much more difficult
> >(albiet perhaps more difficult to adapt) to do.
>
> Why do you want someone to develop the plot for you? Isn't that the part where
> the DM actually invests his own imagination and creativity into the game? Any
> idiot DM can take someone else's plot, and follow the numbers in the book that
> tell him what order to run the encounters and events in.
Ah, but whats the point in buying a module if you already have your plot
in mind? I can't think of a single reason.
I can come up with a map in minutes if I need to, but a plot takes much
more time. The thing is, I think, most gamers buying modules are buying
them to save time. They'd love to come up with complex plots and
storylines, but that takes time; about an hour of prep to an hour of
gaming (for me -- and I've developed a lot of my own systems to speed
development time). If they can buy a module and have that work done for
them, then they'll buy it. Especially if its fully developed. Its not
a matter of creativity, but rather the time to invest to USE that
creativity.
> Rob, every hardback book I bought from T$R since Oriental Adventure's has
> pages falling out and a crappy binding. Every module from the last 3-5 years
> has huge margins, a bunch of useless spammy art, and poor editing. I don't
> enjoy paying good money for whitespace.
Well, that doesn't have anything to do with Judge's Guild. Certainly
the JG stuff was not professionally produced by any standard, not even
the standard of the early 80's. Most of it was printed on cheap white
paper (no real cover on 60% of the stuff, no color either), the margins
were just as thin as most of TSR's product.
Then again, when it only cost $3.00, its hard to complain about
quality. As for TSR's stuff falling apart, I haven't had that problem
since Unearthed Arcana. All my hardbacks are in great shape after 5-7
years of pretty solid use. We won't even get into TSR's editing and art
vis-a-vis JG's art and editing.
Rob Moore
NUELOW
>> Ah, but whats the point in buying a module if you already have your
plot
in mind? I can't think of a single reason. <<
Actually, I never have difficulties coming up with storylines and
interesting characters--the two go and in hand--but I sometimes have a
hard time coming with interesting settings and locations. And I hate
drawing maps...
I don't buy modules for the storylines. I buy them in the hopes of
scavenging interesting setting ideas into which I can fit my stories and
characters. In fact, the storyline of modules is always the first thing to
end up on the scrapheap when I incorporate them into my campaigns.
Steve Miller
Robert Moore
NUELOW wrote:
>
> >> Ah, but whats the point in buying a module if you already have your
> plot
> in mind? I can't think of a single reason. <<
>
> Actually, I never have difficulties coming up with storylines and
> interesting characters--the two go and in hand--but I sometimes have a
> hard time coming with interesting settings and locations. And I hate
> drawing maps...
I think what is really needed is a series of products more like the old
Book of Lairs products by TSR, which were very similar to the Books of
Treasure Maps done by Judge's Guild (and which were some of the best
stuff JG put out, IMO).
These were short adventure ideas, maybe with a small map, and 2 or 3
page descriptions of the setup. They were designed in such a way that
they fit into a home-brew campaign very easily.
If they had made a dozen of these, I would have bought them all. I've
very rarely bought TSR modules, not because I don't think they're good,
but rather because they just don't fill a need for me. I can do the
maps, I can do the settings, I can do the plots, so there is very little
a typical module can do to be of use to me.
Rob Moore
Tim Breen
> I think what is really needed is a series of products more like the old
> Book of Lairs products by TSR, which were very similar to the Books of
> Treasure Maps done by Judge's Guild (and which were some of the best
> stuff JG put out, IMO).
>
> These were short adventure ideas, maybe with a small map, and 2 or 3
> page descriptions of the setup. They were designed in such a way that
> they fit into a home-brew campaign very easily.
Check out the various "Side Treks" in Dungeon Adventures magazine
issues. They generally fit the description you list above, though a book
of them would be nice (even though I have all the issues of Dungeon
already).
J. McGuire
Robert Moore wrote:
>
> I think what is really needed is a series of products more like the old
> Book of Lairs products by TSR, which were very similar to the Books of
> Treasure Maps done by Judge's Guild (and which were some of the best
> stuff JG put out, IMO).
>
> These were short adventure ideas, maybe with a small map, and 2 or 3
> page descriptions of the setup. They were designed in such a way that
> they fit into a home-brew campaign very easily.
>
> very rarely bought TSR modules, not because I don't think they're good,
> but rather because they just don't fill a need for me. I can do the
> maps, I can do the settings, I can do the plots, so there is very little
> a typical module can do to be of use to me.
One of the things that I _LOVE_ about Dungeon Adventures magazine is the
"Side Treks" modules. They're a lot like that, and they're great to slip
in anywhere. I don't just miss Dungeon because I haven't had a freakin'
advertisement out since last year, 'cept for the one in Pyramid -- I'm
getting seriously Side Trek-deprived!
I agree with you about the books of short adventures, though. I'd love
to see more of them.
What I'd _really_ like to see is a series of books (similar to the one
they did on the undead) featuring all sorts of common creatures. Yes,
COMMON creatures, one type per book. It's fairly easy to come up with a
cool way to use a monster that they adventurers don't run into very
often...just the novelty of the critter is a good start. But logic
dictates that they'll meet up with orcs a lot more often than they'll
meet liches, and after a while you really start running out of creative
things to do with orcs.
I'd love to be able to buy a book like the Books of Lairs containing
dozens of mini modules using orcs. It would have everything from the
most common and obvious stuff -- raiding parties, orc encampments, etc.
-- plus some neat and nifty and clever twists on the old standbys, to
much more esoteric things, really new and unique ways to use those orcs.
Each of the mini modules might also have a list of a dozen or so
alternate ideas, like the old Traveller stuff, so that even if the
players have all read the book, they still won't know what variant the
GM is using. The strange and exotic is easy -- we really need ways to
make the more commonplace come to life.
There are hordes of those gameworld-common but publication-poor critters
out there. I would plonk down my money for that book of orc mini-modules
before another one on exotic encounters any day. One for orcs, one for
elves, one for common wilderness animals (one of the zaniest low-level
encounters I ever GM'd involved a bear and a backpack), one for peasants
for that matter -- they're everywhere, has any adventurer ever notice?
-- one for just about anything listed as "common" in the monster books.
They might not have the glitz and glamor of the stranger and more exotic
creatures -- but for the harried GM with an adventure to write, a game
to run, they'd be worth their weight in mithril. They'd certainly be
worth my dollars, and get them.
<shameless commercial plug>
Have you checked out TableMaster? You'd probably love the "Tombs" table
from Fantasy Table Pack 2. If you stop by the booth at GenCon, pester me
to demo that one.
Aardy R. DeVarque
thre...@athens.net (ThresholdMURPE) wrote:
>There have been many JG related threads in which many good modules produced by
>them have been mentioned. I would love to see a JG website and/or mailing
>list. Do either of these exist?
Mailing list? I have no clue. I haven't looked that closely through
Alistair G. Lowe-Norris' List of RPG Mailing Lists lately enough to
remember--the latest version was posted here a few months back, though; a
DejaNews search should turn it up.
Web page? Check out the the "non-TSR AD&Dmaterial" lists on and linked from
David Papay's web pages: http://www.acm.org/~papay/ [tsr_prices_intro.html]
Some fun nostalgia going on!
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
BADMIKE3
Robert says:
<<<Come on, lets not get overly nostalgic. The vast majority of JG stuff
was tables and tables of silly events/encounters/miscellania (who can
forget the table to determine your female PC's bust/waist/hip
measurements?), or simplistic room descriptions with the obligatory
monster and treasure.>>>
True, and the best of it never touched the best of the TSR stuff produced
during the same period. All the various "Wilderness" supplements are (as
well as Caves and Caverns, for ex) are lists of random encounters and
tables. Still, there is a wonderful nostalgic feel about reading through
the "monster hotels", wondering why six kobolds are in a room next to a
Red Dragon (in a 40x30 room) and what the heck the little buggers eat...
Trevor says:
<<< I'd have to disagree here, I think some of JG's better products
were as good or better than equivalent TSR products.
Notably, the City State of the Invincible Overlord still one of the
great RPG City Modules, even now, almost twenty years since it was
released>>>
It's not better than City of Splendors...honestly. However, for it's time
and up until a few years ago, Overlord was one of the best City RPG's ever
published...particularly the excellent "Wraith Overlord" supplement.
Let's not get crazy here. There are some good JG releases, but they by
means challenge TSR items in terms of quality. Bad editing, bad art, bad
plots, and sometimes just plain bad everything plague many of the JG
releases. However, some 25% of the stuff rises above it's humble origins
to become really good.
Aristotle says:
<<<JG material was vastly superior to the T$R products of the last 5+
years.
At least JG didn't try to foist the goddamn Avatar Triology upon anyone
and
didn't try to turn Demons and Devils into cartoon villains.>>>
Wrong. JG can't even touch City of Splendors, Labyrinth of Madness, Gates
of Firestorm Peak, Night Below and Ruins of Undermountain (which is the
most JG style item ever released by TSR...). I hate the Baltimore
Orioles, but I have to admit they have a great baseball team. You can
utterly detest TSR and the majority of products released by them the last
decade, but appreciate quality when it's obvious.
Jean says:
<<<Seems to me that JG comes out *way* ahead on the 'quality' thing when
you look at it from the bang-for-the-buck point of view.>>>
Can't argue with that...this is one of my #1 criteria in deciding if an
RPG item has met it's standards (which is why Ruins of Undermountain is
one of my all-time favorite products). Most of the JG packets were HUGE
by today's standards...the City State supplements, Wraith Overlord,
Tarantis were packed with info and very useful in being cannabalized for
one's own campaigns...all at a reasonable cost.
Trevor says:
<<<Yes, slick is the word that must be applied to con artists at
Mayfair that came up with their "City State of the Invincible Overlord."
The Mayfair "City State" had nothing in common with the JG "City State".
Bromley and co. should refund any and all (including myself) who were
suckered in by the name.>>>
Ugh. Stay far, far away from this abomination, and the CS companion box
sets that were released at the same time. They are worse than bad.
Robert says:
<<<I should get out some of my JG stuff and list a few of
the sillier things just to show that JG did stuff farther out of line
than TSR ever did -- and with far less forethought.>>>
I'll get out my "Under the Storm Giants Castle" and you can get out your
"Sword of Ulisson" and we could trade ridiculous quotes...we'd have them
rolling on the floor giggling in no time :>
Steve says:
<<<I don't buy modules for the storylines. I buy them in the hopes of
scavenging interesting setting ideas into which I can fit my stories and
characters.>>>
Me too, which is why I love a lot of the JG stuff...I can toss the silly
plots and monsters and use the (often excellent) floorplans. EX I
recently read through Demons of Dundurn, which didn't interest me but the
castle floorplans that were included (on an oversized sheet) will be put
to good use...
Aristotle says:
<<< Rob, every hardback book I bought from T$R since Oriental Adventure's
has
pages falling out and a crappy binding. Every module from the last 3-5
years
has huge margins, a bunch of useless spammy art, and poor editing. I don't
enjoy paying good money for whitespace.>>>
You haven't read either Labyrinth of Madness or Gates of Firestorm
Peak...I don't see any of those problems there. I don't have a single
book with the pages falling out except for NUMEROUS copies of Unearthed
Arcana (what were the spines made out of for these?). It's simply not a
problem...believe me, I probably come across 100+ books or more every year
and it's maybe a problem in 10% of the books, and they are of the well
used state.
There are items like you describe (The Beholder Monstrous Arcana pops
into mind...lots of pictures and white space, very little actual writing)
but I just don't pick these up, and they really aren't as common as you
think.
I would love to know of or participate in a JG mailing list.
Although a lot of their stuff doesn't hold up today, most of the
supplements and modules are an accurate snapshot of the RPG hobby as it
was back in the late 70's/early 80's. And some excellent stuff came
out...The three Book of Treasure maps, the City State supplements, Dark
Tower, Wraith Overlord, Caverns of Thracia, and maybe a few others are
some of my favorite RPG items. Let's not get blinded with nostalgia,
however. A lot of it was amateur junk, not even fit to be printed in
Dungeon magazine. However, there's nothing for re-living the "good old
days" like pulling one of these out of the plastic bag and re-reading
it...
Mike B.
stephenJ
BADMIKE3 wrote:
>
>
> Wrong. JG can't even touch City of Splendors, Labyrinth of Madness, Gates
> of Firestorm Peak, Night Below and Ruins of Undermountain (which is the
> most JG style item ever released by TSR...). I hate the Baltimore
> Orioles, but I have to admit they have a great baseball team. You can
> utterly detest TSR and the majority of products released by them the last
> decade, but appreciate quality when it's obvious.
How do these sad 2nd edition modules have better "quality" than JG
classics like Inferno, Caverns of Thracia, and Dark Tower?
>
JG wins hands down...
BADMIKE3
> Wrong. JG can't even touch City of Splendors, Labyrinth of Madness,
Gates
> of Firestorm Peak, Night Below and Ruins of Undermountain (which is the
> most JG style item ever released by TSR...). I hate the Baltimore
> Orioles, but I have to admit they have a great baseball team. You can
> utterly detest TSR and the majority of products released by them the
last
> decade, but appreciate quality when it's obvious.
How do these sad 2nd edition modules have better "quality" than JG
classics like Inferno, Caverns of Thracia, and Dark Tower?
JG wins hands down...>>>
You can have your opinion. But I own 90% of everything ever
published by TSR, and 99% of everything ever published by JG, I've read
almost all of it, and I think I'm on pretty strong ground here. I've
found that many JG and 1st edition fans have tunnel vision when it comes
to this opinion...it isn't a question of good or bad, or quality or
non-quality, it's merely "It's TSR 2nd edition, it sucks".
I had a lot of friends tell me that "Judge's Guild products were the
best RPG's ever published" before I had ever read anything by them. When I
finally got around to completing my JG collection, I had to laugh because
it simply wasn't true; what was true was that these friends still play and
love 1st edition and anything produced after Gygax left TSR is considered
crap. "Inferno" is simply a devil hack, it's not even as good as Ed
Greenwood's articles in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. "Caverns of
Thracia" is a very good dungeon, but it's not BETTER than any of the one's
I mentioned. "Dark Tower" is a classic, but it also has it's
flaws...actually, I've found through the years I like Cavern's of Thracia
BETTER than Dark Tower, and I like Wraith Overlord better than both of
these.
Have you ever actually read through Ruins of Undermountain? It's a
Judge's Guild product in disguise!!! It's the most JG-like item ever
released by TSR, if you love JG I find it hard to believe you don't like
Ruins. Unless someone is just a knee-jerk AD&D 2nd edition hater with
more nostalgia than sense, I find it hard to believe that the TSR items I
listed above wouldn't be on anyone's list of quality RPG items. I love JG
stuff, but let's put it in perspective...
Mike B.
stephenJ
BADMIKE3 wrote:
>
> You can have your opinion. But I own 90% of everything ever
> published by TSR, and 99% of everything ever published by JG, I've read
> almost all of it, and I think I'm on pretty strong ground here. I've
> found that many JG and 1st edition fans have tunnel vision when it comes
> to this opinion.
Please don't project from your personal experience....
"Inferno" is simply a devil hack, it's not even as good as Ed
> Greenwood's articles in Dragon magazine back in the 80's.
Inferno is a fine, inventive module, and Ed Greenwood's articles on the
Hells were excellent as well. Nothing TSR has published under second
edition about the Hells is close to them in quality. Since you say silly
things about first edition players, i'll say something silly about you:
You obviously worship second edition, mindlessly reject anything not
brand-new as out of date or nostalgic, and slurp up anything TSR cranks
out these days.
"Caverns of
> Thracia" is a very good dungeon, but it's not BETTER than any of the one's
> I mentioned.
Sure it is...
"Dark Tower" is a classic, but it also has it's
> flaws...actually, I've found through the years I like Cavern's of Thracia
> BETTER than Dark Tower,
So do I!
and I like Wraith Overlord better than both of
> these.
Here we differ...
> Have you ever actually read through Ruins of Undermountain?
Some of it. Was not impressed...
It's a
> Judge's Guild product in disguise!!!
An ill-minded attempt at one....
It's the most JG-like item ever
> released by TSR, if you love JG I find it hard to believe you don't like
> Ruins.
Too much plot narration and description, not enough nuts and bolts for
the DM....
Unless someone is just a knee-jerk AD&D 2nd edition hater with
> more nostalgia than sense,
Unless someone is a mindless second edition addict with enough money to
buy all these 2nd edition products....
Alan D Kohler
In article <33CAD5...@ix.netcom.com>, sja...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>BADMIKE3 wrote:
>>
>> You can have your opinion. But I own 90% of everything ever
>> published by TSR, and 99% of everything ever published by JG, I've read
>> almost all of it, and I think I'm on pretty strong ground here. I've
>> found that many JG and 1st edition fans have tunnel vision when it comes
>> to this opinion.
>
>Please don't project from your personal experience....
> "Inferno" is simply a devil hack, it's not even as good as Ed
>> Greenwood's articles in Dragon magazine back in the 80's.
>
>Inferno is a fine, inventive module, and Ed Greenwood's articles on the
>Hells were excellent as well. Nothing TSR has published under second
>edition about the Hells is close to them in quality.
Oooh, aren't we one to scold for projecting from one's personal experience?
The last time we discussed the issue, you flatly refused to even look at any
planescape material. Planes of Law's Baator (aka Hell, for you old schoolers)
Hellbound: The Bloodwar are at least on par with Mr. Greenwoods articles. I'd
even say that they are a step above said articles if you count
characterization, which the above mentioned planescape products have in spades.
> Since you say silly
>things about first edition players, i'll say something silly about you:
>You obviously worship second edition, mindlessly reject anything not
>brand-new as out of date or nostalgic, and slurp up anything TSR cranks
>out these days.
How many time have we heard this from Stephen in all seriousness?
(Snip)
>> Have you ever actually read through Ruins of Undermountain?
>
>Some of it. Was not impressed...
>
> It's a
>> Judge's Guild product in disguise!!!
>
>An ill-minded attempt at one....
>
> It's the most JG-like item ever
>> released by TSR, if you love JG I find it hard to believe you don't like
>> Ruins.
>
>Too much plot narration and description, not enough nuts and bolts for
>the DM....
>
Ruins of the Undermountain has too much narration and not enough nuts and bolt?
Are you sure you're talking about the same product? This is RUINS OF THE
UNDERMOUNTAIN we are talking about here. The only part of it that has ANY plot
narration is the thin little adventure booklet. the rest is pretty much ALL
nuts-n-bolts. From your above statement, I am truly convinced that you *DID
NOT* give Ruins more than a passing glance.
> Unless someone is just a knee-jerk AD&D 2nd edition hater with
>> more nostalgia than sense,
>
>Unless someone is a mindless second edition addict with enough money to
>buy all these 2nd edition products....
Whatever gave you the idea any 2nd edition player has - or even wants - all of
the 2nd edition products? I don't have them all. I don't even know anyone who
has them all. I don't know anyone with all the darkover novels, either. That
doesn't make them bad books.
stephenJ
Alan D Kohler wrote:
>
> Whatever gave you the idea any 2nd edition player has - or even wants - all of
> the 2nd edition products?
It's a habit from my experience with first edition. See, with 1st
edition, i *wanted* all the products TSR made, and because there weren't
a thousand-and-one products out there, it was *possible* to have them
all.
I don't have them all. I don't even know anyone who
> has them all.
You're right, i should have known better...
BADMIKE3
> You can have your opinion. But I own 90% of everything ever
> published by TSR, and 99% of everything ever published by JG, I've read
> almost all of it, and I think I'm on pretty strong ground here. I've
> found that many JG and 1st edition fans have tunnel vision when it comes
> to this opinion.
Please don't project from your personal experience....>>>
Why not? It's obviously more even-handed and deeper than your own. You
say yourself you don't own the 2nd edition items, don't do more than
glance at them, how is YOUR personal experience any broader than mine? It
isn't....sorry to be blunt, but you obviously know little or nothing about
what you're talking about.
<<< Since you say sillythings about first edition players, i'll say
something silly about you:You obviously worship second edition, mindlessly
reject anything not
brand-new as out of date or nostalgic, and slurp up anything TSR cranks
out these days.>>>
I showed this to my younger brother (who I've gamed with since 1977) and
he about had a heart attack laughing. I LOVE 1st edition, I still PLAY
first edition, and I only buy about 3 or 4 2nd edition items a year that
catch my fancy, and they are usually items that are VERY 1st edition in
tone and appearance (such as the aforementioned Labyrinth of Madness,
Night Below, Ruins, etc) My brothers buy nearly everything, so If I'm
interested in something I don't have I simply borrow it from them to read,
and I'm usually not that impressed. If I hated 1st edition, why do I own a
complete set of JG modules? So I can rip on them? Why do I collect game
systems like The Companions, Midkemia, Arduin, early Runequest, etc? I
have a nostalgia streak a mile wide and ten miles long... Why do I own
EVERYTHING printed for D&D and AD&D up until a few years ago? I think most
of the older stuff simply blows away the latest stuff...EXCEPT for the
items I mentioned, which are as good or better than anything that was
released 10-20 years ago. Please, nostalgia is a good thing, but it can
lead to a certain mindset that leads to knee-jerk reactions...
<<< It's the most JG-like item ever
> released by TSR, if you love JG I find it hard to believe you don't like
> Ruins.
Too much plot narration and description, not enough nuts and bolts for
the DM....>>>
Point proven...you don't know what you're talking about. 90% of the three
levels aren't even detailed, and almost all the encounters are stand alone
adventures. Good God, it even has funky tables for rolling up things like
sounds, smells, items found in the halls, traps...in other words, EXACTLY
like most of the Judge's Guild items you love so much! Plot narration and
description are almost nil... It's very, very obvious to anyone who has
Ruins that you haven't given it more than a extremely feeble passing
glance, and I suspect you haven't even did that.
<<<Unless someone is a mindless second edition addict with enough money to
buy all these 2nd edition products....>>>
Oh, ok I forgot. My mistake...you're that poster that hates eveything put
out by TSR since Gygax left, and you routinely rip on products you know
nothing about. I didn't recognize the screen name at first, my fault, I
thought we were in for a intelligent, informed discussion concerning the
merits of JG products vs newer items. Please continue your completely
unsubstantiated rants against AD&D 2nd edition products...
Mike B.
stephenJ
BADMIKE3 wrote:
>
> Why not? It's obviously more even-handed and deeper than your own. You
> say yourself you don't own the 2nd edition items, don't do more than
> glance at them, how is YOUR personal experience any broader than mine?
It's one thing to speak about yourself, and say something like "well,
IMO Ruins of Undermountain is better than any JG product". That's fair,
because you know how you feel. But when you make silly statements about
how - in your absurdly limited experience - most people who like JG
items over ADD2 items are narrow minded, nostalgic, hate everything
after Gygax left, etc., what you're doing is *projecting* your own petty
experiences onto a whole *population* of people who may not fit those
characteristics at all. As for "even-handed", well, you've shown no
evidence of being anything other than a prejudiced 2nd edition
player....
> I showed this to my younger brother (who I've gamed with since 1977) and
> he about had a heart attack laughing. I LOVE 1st edition,
(snip irrelevant life gaming story)
As i said, i was saying something *silly* about you to show you how
*silly* your generaliztions about people who disagree with you on this
issue are. But that obviously went over your head...
> Too much plot narration and description, not enough nuts and bolts for
> the DM....>>>
>
> Point proven...you don't know what you're talking about.
Nonsense. In my opinion, it has too much narration and description.
Period. You obviously disagree, but that doesn't "prove" you are
right...
> Oh, ok I forgot. My mistake...you're that poster that hates eveything put
> out by TSR since Gygax left,
An absurd claim. On many occasions i've discussed TSR products that came
out after Gygax left that i own and enjoy very much. You obviously don't
know what you're talking about, but it does fit with your propensity to
make uninformed judgments about others...
BADMIKE3
<<<It's one thing to speak about yourself, and say something like "well,
IMO Ruins of Undermountain is better than any JG product". That's fair,
because you know how you feel.>>>
Actually, I said that many 2nd edition items were as good as the best JG
products...not a rip, IMO, but your estimation is fair. It was my
opinion.
<<<But when you make silly statements about how - in your absurdly limited
experience - most people who like JG items over ADD2 items are narrow
minded, nostalgic, hate everything after Gygax left, etc., what you're
doing is *projecting* your own petty experiences onto a whole *population*
of people who may not fit those characteristics at all. As for
"even-handed", well, you've shown no
evidence of being anything other than a prejudiced 2nd edition
player....>>>
Actually, my experience isn't limited...I would have never based that
observation on one or two old-time gamers I've met. When I do find
someone who has gamed long enough to actually know what the hell Judge's
Guild is, they invariably also play 1st edition and are adamant in their
dislike for the post-Gygax 2nd edition stuff (unless like me they are a
collector, or they like to update the stuff to 2nd edition). I realize
the evidence is anecdotal, but that's all I have to go on. In my twenty
years of gaming and selling RPG material I've met and talked to literally
hundreds of gamers, customers, online posters, etc. I try to be
even-handed in my like/dislike of RPG products. I don't consider
disliking some 1st edition items sacrilege, or liking some 2nd edition
items a blot on my gaming rep.
Once again, I PLAY 1ST EDITION!!! Are you listening to me or your inner
voice? Or do you just conveniently forget the parts you don't like?
<<<As i said, i was saying something *silly* about you to show you how
*silly* your generalizations about people who disagree with you on this
issue are. But that obviously went over your head...>>>
I'm just silly that way...to date, though, no one except you has disagreed
with my opinions. I would give anyone who disagreed with me a chance to
give me a reason..for example, why is Caverns of Thracia better than
Ruins, Night Below or Gates of Firestorm Peak? (Your statement) "Sure it
is" is not an arguement I'm going to respect, sorry.
<<<Nonsense. In my opinion, it has too much narration and description.
Period. You obviously disagree, but that doesn't "prove" you are
right...>>>
In my opinion, the new Batman movie is too campy and Clooney is a lousy
Batman. Whoops! I haven't seen it yet, but I saw the trailers...The
point I was making was that I would respect your opinion much more if you
indicated you'd actually read the offending material. You admitted you
didn't, and were basing your opinion on "glancing" at the material. Have
you ever actually read any of the materials I mentioned? Why did you
dislike it? I would honestly like to hear your opinions...I can tell you
exactly why I don't like certain JG products, you may disagree but at
least I read the material and could defend my observations.
<<<An absurd claim. On many occasions i've discussed TSR products that
came
out after Gygax left that i own and enjoy very much. >>>
Name the "sad" 2nd edition material you enjoy so much...again, I'm
seriously interested in what you like and why.
<<<You obviously don'tknow what you're talking about, but it does fit with
your propensity tomake uninformed judgments about others...>>>
Please, have you ever actually read any of your old posts?
<<<Planes of Law's Baator (aka Hell, for you old schoolers)
Hellbound: The Bloodwar are at least on par with Mr. Greenwoods articles.
I'd
even say that they are a step above said articles if you count
characterization, which the above mentioned planescape products have in
spades.>>>
I'll have to check this out...
BTW, anyone out there with a set of old Pegasus magazines with the city
state supplements still intact? I would be interested in talking with
you, the ones I have are missing these and I would like copies...I have
lots of old JG material, or other RPG items, I could trade for
these...thanks!
Mike B.
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33CBB0...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Alan D Kohler wrote:
>>
>> Whatever gave you the idea any 2nd edition player has - or even wants - all
>> of the 2nd edition products?
>
>It's a habit from my experience with first edition. See, with 1st
>edition, i *wanted* all the products TSR made, and because there weren't
>a thousand-and-one products out there, it was *possible* to have them
>all.
This is a superb point. I remember buying EVERY book that TSR released in the
first edition days. Why? Because EVERY book was good, and I knew it would be.
Furthermore, if they released a suplement or a module, I would do my best to
purchase it. Why? Again, I knew it was probably a darn good product.
When T$R started releasing products by the hundreds, far too high a percentage
of the products just flat out sucked. Its pretty darn annoying to only get one
good product out of 5 or 10.
And don't try to argue that you can look through them at the stores. For one,
most of them are shrinkwrapped, and for two, you simply do not have time to
give the products a decent read in a store. Especially if there are 50
products to choose from.
-Aristotle@Threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
http://www.athens.net/~aristotle
telnet://mud.chelmsford.com:23 -or- telnet mud.chelmsford.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VISIT THRESHOLD MURPE! Online High Fantasy RPG!
Guilds: fighter/mage/thief/cleric/psion/bard/alchemist/shapeshifter
Player run clans, businesses, legal system, nobility, highly developed
religions, missile combat, tons of quests/areas, intense Role Playing!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33CC23...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>BADMIKE3 wrote:
>> Oh, ok I forgot. My mistake...you're that poster that hates eveything put
>> out by TSR since Gygax left,
>
>know what you're talking about, but it does fit with your propensity to
>make uninformed judgments about others...
Its hilarious how the rabid, defend-T$R-to-the-death-for-no-good-reason folks
always make this same claim as if it means anything. "You just hate everything
T$R put out since Gygax left." Most people that prefer 1st edition NEVER argue
that EVERYTHING T$R put out was crap. Hell, I actually like my 2nd edition
rule books. I like some of the 2nd edition rules, and I like some of the
reorganization of materials.
What most 1st edition players hate is the fact that T$R was pumping out such a
glut of materials, modules, supplements, books, etc, it became extremely
difficult locate the few quality products. It was like finding the proverbial
needle in the haystack.
Alan D Kohler
In article <33cc6...@news.athens.net>, thre...@athens.net says...
>
>In article <33CBB0...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>>Alan D Kohler wrote:
>>>
>>> Whatever gave you the idea any 2nd edition player has - or even wants - all
>>> of the 2nd edition products?
>>
>>It's a habit from my experience with first edition. See, with 1st
>>edition, i *wanted* all the products TSR made, and because there weren't
>>a thousand-and-one products out there, it was *possible* to have them
>>all.
>
>This is a superb point.
Is it? I think not. He's cutting his own throat. He accuses those of us
being "victims of TSR's marketing tactics" willing to "buy whatever crap they
put out", ant then he merely reveals himself to be the 1st edition version of
the marketing victims he claims us to be. While in fact, he reveals that *he*
is the one with no discression as to what he buys.
> I remember buying EVERY book that TSR released in the
>first edition days. Why? Because EVERY book was good,
Highly debatable. Highly. I still don't have a copy of the WSG. Way back
when, I figured that it was just something I could live without. however, I
have most of the completes, becasue most of them are useful (or, at least, were
when I bought them).
> and I knew it would be.
>Furthermore, if they released a suplement or a module, I would do my best to
>purchase it. Why? Again, I knew it was probably a darn good product.
>
Even more debatable. Some first edition modules really sucked.
>When T$R started releasing products by the hundreds, far too high a percentage
>of the products just flat out sucked. Its pretty darn annoying to only get one
>good product out of 5 or 10.
>
Take of your shit colored glasses, kemosabe. I fail to beleive that there was
that drastic of a drop in product quality between 1st and 2nd edition. I have
a feeling that the issue here is QUANTITY not QUALITY. But since you
apparently decided at the outset that 2nd edition was bad, you decided the
products were bad without even looking at them and continue to make judgements
on products you haven't even given more than a passing glance, which puts you
in the same sinking boat as Mr. Jaros AFAIAC.
>And don't try to argue that you can look through them at the stores. For one,
>most of them are shrinkwrapped, and for two, you simply do not have time to
>give the products a decent read in a store. Especially if there are 50
>products to choose from.
Borrow them or listen to recomendations from freinds. Not all products come
shrinkwrapped, and if your retailer shrinkwraps everything, it's time to shop
somewhere else. It didn't take me too long to figure out that the Complete
Ninja's Handbook was great (if perhaps a bit unneeded) and that the Complete
Barbarians Handbook was a peice of crap. Of course your opinions may vary, but
denying yourself good material if you you can use it just because "it's 2nd
edition and 2nd edition is crap" is just stupid.
Trevor...@acml.com
In article <19970714024...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
badm...@aol.com (BADMIKE3) wrote:
>
>
> Trevor says:
> <<< I'd have to disagree here, I think some of JG's better products
> were as good or better than equivalent TSR products.
> Notably, the City State of the Invincible Overlord still one of the
> great RPG City Modules, even now, almost twenty years since it was
> released>>>
>
> It's not better than City of Splendors...honestly. However, for it's time
> and up until a few years ago, Overlord was one of the best City RPG's ever
> published...particularly the excellent "Wraith Overlord" supplement.
> Let's not get crazy here. There are some good JG releases, but they by
> means challenge TSR items in terms of quality. Bad editing, bad art, bad
> plots, and sometimes just plain bad everything plague many of the JG
> releases. However, some 25% of the stuff rises above it's humble origins
> to become really good.
Hmm. Before I comment let me admit that I am somehwat predjudiced
against any (but not all see below) TSR F-Realms products. With that in
mind let me say that IMHO City State is (at least for my purposes)
better then City of Splendor. However, I'd be the first to agree that
City of Splendors has much better production values than the JG product.
As you state above, many JG products were plagued with strange
and unusual production errors: Bad editing, Bad art and etc. (Under
the Storm Giants Castle==Just plain BAD!)
Furthermore, I'd agree that (on average and with exceptions)
TSR products created during the time that JG operated were better, often
much better, than equivalent JG products.
> Aristotle says:
> <<<JG material was vastly superior to the T$R products of the last 5+
> years.
> At least JG didn't try to foist the goddamn Avatar Triology upon anyone
> and
> didn't try to turn Demons and Devils into cartoon villains.>>>
>
> Wrong. JG can't even touch City of Splendors, Labyrinth of Madness, Gates
> of Firestorm Peak, Night Below and Ruins of Undermountain (which is the
> most JG style item ever released by TSR...). I hate the Baltimore
> Orioles, but I have to admit they have a great baseball team. You can
> utterly detest TSR and the majority of products released by them the last
> decade, but appreciate quality when it's obvious.
I like Ruins (and will get Ruins II one of these days....), and
though I'm not a huge fan of CoS I'd agree that on the whole its
a "good" product. My problem with the TSR's product policy of the last
few years is its "Nickel and Dime" philosophy. I rather liked Birthright
and bought the basic kit, then a couple of "player's secrets"...then
.... Well you get the idea. As with Dark Sun, I tired of having to
buy numerous items to be able to run a campaign in that world.
For all their flaws, most 1st ed TSR ADD products and JG products
were self contained. CityState can be modified (fairly easily)
and put anywhere.
> Trevor says:
> <<<Yes, slick is the word that must be applied to con artists at
> Mayfair that came up with their "City State of the Invincible Overlord."
> The Mayfair "City State" had nothing in common with the JG "City State".
> Ugh. Stay far, far away from this abomination, and the CS companion box
> sets that were released at the same time. They are worse than bad.
Heh. Don't you have one of these sets for sale? :->
Cheers,
Trevor
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
ThresholdMURPE
In article <5qik5r$m...@mars.hyperk.com>, hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net (Alan D Kohler) wrote:
>Is it? I think not. He's cutting his own throat. He accuses those of us
>being "victims of TSR's marketing tactics" willing to "buy whatever crap they
>put out", ant then he merely reveals himself to be the 1st edition version of
>the marketing victims he claims us to be. While in fact, he reveals that *he*
>is the one with no discression as to what he buys.
Apparently you cannot read. He said (and it is the point I agreed with) that
the 1st edition products were of a quality that you WANTED to buy them all.
You weren't tricked or cajoled into it by marketing, the products were good,
so you SOUGHT them.
>Highly debatable. Highly. I still don't have a copy of the WSG. Way back
>when, I figured that it was just something I could live without. however, I
>have most of the completes, becasue most of them are useful (or, at least, were
I agree with you. the WSG *was* the only hardbound book of 1st edition AD&D
that was, imho, quite inessential. I flipped through it and didn't buy it
because I had my own rules for wilderness stuff.
>Even more debatable. Some first edition modules really sucked.
Perhaps. But with about 1/100th of the number of products, it was very easy to
find the good ones.
>Take of your shit colored glasses, kemosabe. I fail to beleive that there was
>that drastic of a drop in product quality between 1st and 2nd edition. I have
>a feeling that the issue here is QUANTITY not QUALITY. But since you
>apparently decided at the outset that 2nd edition was bad, you decided the
>products were bad without even looking at them and continue to make judgements
>on products you haven't even given more than a passing glance, which puts you
>in the same sinking boat as Mr. Jaros AFAIAC.
Again, you do not read. 1) I said I LIKE the 2nd edition rulebooks (PHB and
DMs Gude. I even like the first couple Monstrous Compendiums). 2) I still
PURCHASE 2nd edition products. I am almost always disappointed, but I guess I
am eternally optimistic.
Thus, you are wrong again. I buy T$R products, so my opinion is quite
informed. The fact is, when I buy them, I am generally very unsatisfied.
stephenJ
Alan D Kohler wrote:
>
> Is it? I think not. He's cutting his own throat. He accuses those of us
> being "victims of TSR's marketing tactics" willing to "buy whatever crap they
> put out", ant then he merely reveals himself to be the 1st edition version of
> the marketing victims he claims us to be. While in fact, he reveals that *he*
> is the one with no discression as to what he buys.
Nonsense. I used discression, i bought the products because they were
good *and* it was possible to buy them. Unless you're wealthy, there's
no way anyone can keep up with all the stuff TSR cranks out...
stephenJ
Alan D Kohler wrote:
>
> Is it? I think not. He's cutting his own throat. He accuses those of us
> being "victims of TSR's marketing tactics" willing to "buy whatever crap they
> put out", ant then he merely reveals himself to be the 1st edition version of
> the marketing victims he claims us to be. While in fact, he reveals that *he*
> is the one with no discression as to what he buys.
Nonsense. I used discression, i bought the products because they were
good *and* it was possible to buy them. Unless you're wealthy, there's
no way anyone can keep up with all the stuff TSR cranks out...
>
> > I remember buying EVERY book that TSR released in the
> >first edition days. Why? Because EVERY book was good,
>
> Highly debatable. Highly. I still don't have a copy of the WSG. Way back
> when, I figured that it was just something I could live without. however, I
> have most of the completes, becasue most of them are useful (or, at least, were
> when I bought them).
>
> > and I knew it would be.
> >Furthermore, if they released a suplement or a module, I would do my best to
> >purchase it. Why? Again, I knew it was probably a darn good product.
> >
> Even more debatable. Some first edition modules really sucked.
>
> >When T$R started releasing products by the hundreds, far too high a percentage
> >of the products just flat out sucked. Its pretty darn annoying to only get one
> >good product out of 5 or 10.
> >
> Take of your shit colored glasses, kemosabe. I fail to beleive that there was
> that drastic of a drop in product quality between 1st and 2nd edition. I have
> a feeling that the issue here is QUANTITY not QUALITY. But since you
> apparently decided at the outset that 2nd edition was bad, you decided the
> products were bad without even looking at them and continue to make judgements
> on products you haven't even given more than a passing glance, which puts you
> in the same sinking boat as Mr. Jaros AFAIAC.
>
> >And don't try to argue that you can look through them at the stores. For one,
> >most of them are shrinkwrapped, and for two, you simply do not have time to
> >give the products a decent read in a store. Especially if there are 50
> >products to choose from.
>
> Borrow them or listen to recomendations from freinds. Not all products come
> shrinkwrapped, and if your retailer shrinkwraps everything, it's time to shop
> somewhere else. It didn't take me too long to figure out that the Complete
> Ninja's Handbook was great (if perhaps a bit unneeded) and that the Complete
> Barbarians Handbook was a peice of crap. Of course your opinions may vary, but
> denying yourself good material if you you can use it just because "it's 2nd
> edition and 2nd edition is crap" is just stupid.
> --
> SPAM FILTER NOTICE - REMOVE "REMOVE2REPLY" to reply by email.
> Alan D Kohler hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net
> "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
> I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it."
> Jack Handly, Deep Thoughts
--
Aardy R. DeVarque
thre...@athens.net (ThresholdMURPE) wrote:
>When T$R started releasing products by the hundreds, far too high a percentage
>of the products just flat out sucked. Its pretty darn annoying to only get one
>good product out of 5 or 10.
>
>most of them are shrinkwrapped, and for two, you simply do not have time to
>give the products a decent read in a store. Especially if there are 50
>products to choose from.
That is why net.reviews are a good thing, and it's not considered bad form
to request comments from rgfd readers on newer releases.
In Stephen's case, it's nearly impossible to tailor a list of suggested
products to his likes, since his #1 like is apparently "must be published
before 1989".
In Aristotle's case, it's difficult but not impossible, but it'd help if
he'd give a few honest reviews of the few 2nd ed products he's bought and
actually liked.
(a brief list: buy Ruins of Undermountain [but *NOT* the sequel], Labyrinth
of Madness & Gates of Firestorm Peak. Most people I've seen comment on these
adventures agree that they have a flavor definitely reminiscent of the
better 1st ed. products, and are fairly easy to drop into any campaign world
with a minimum of effort on the DM's part.)
Aardy R. DeVarque
thre...@athens.net (ThresholdMURPE) wrote:
>What most 1st edition players hate is the fact that T$R was pumping out such a
>glut of materials, modules, supplements, books, etc, it became extremely
>difficult locate the few quality products. It was like finding the proverbial
>needle in the haystack.
I (and, I've noticed, several others here) would *like* to help you locate
the quality products from TSR's recent years, but it helps if you'll
actually take time out from bashing TSR to *listen*, or to calmly outline
the 2nd ed. products that you do like, so it's possible to point you towards
more in similar veins.
If you have a resource like the Internet for determining product quality and
aren't using it...
Aardy R. DeVarque
On the topic of Judges Guild products, I'm trying to compile a list of all
the JG products that work with D&D/AD&D (but *not* a list of all the various
printings of each!). Here's a list I cribbed from David Papay's non-TSR
price list, with some additions from another JG web page. Problem being,
I'm not intimately familiar with JG at *all*.
What I'd like to know is, what should I add/remove from this list, and does
anyone have any corrections?
0001;34"x44" City State map (4 sections)
0002;Dungeon Tac Cards [D&D](1976)
0003;I Booklet (1 of 3 for the original City State)
0004;17"x22" City State Player Map
0005;Six Charts - 5 Men Attack, 1 Monster Attack
0006;Six Charts - 5 Chainmail, 1 Monster Attack
0007;Six Monster Attack Charts
0008;Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5
0009;17"x22" City State Judge's Map
0010;Guide to the City State
0011;Special Starter Package (D&D plus Guildmember Subscriptions) [D&D]
0012;City State of the Invincible Overlord Game Aid [AD&D](1976,1979)
0013;Deluxe Fantasy Package (JG 12 + D&D + dice set) [D&D]
0014;Ready Ref Book (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1977/1978)
0015;J Maps (Thunderhold/Sunstone Cavern)
0016;J Booklet (Thunderhold) and Ready Ref Chart
0017;Dungeon Levels Maps J 1-4
0018,17"x22" Judges City State Campaign Map
0019;17"x22" Players City State Campaign Map
0020;Booklet K (City State Campaign 1) and Ready Ref Sheets
0021;I;J;K Journals (1,2)
0022;Judges Guild Journal L (3)
0023;17"x22" Tegel Manor and Area Judges Map
0024;11"x17" Tegel Manor and Area Players Map
0025;L Booklet (Tegel Manor) and Character Sheets
0027;Tegel Manor Installment: items 22-25 (1980)
0028;Judges Shield [D&D]
0029;Six Character Checklists
0030;11"x17" Judges Tegel Manor Map [D&D](1977)
0031;City of Modron Maps--Judges and Players
0032;M Booklet (Modron)
0033;Judges Guild Journal M (4)
0034;Modron Installment: items 31-33
0035;Three Monstrous Statistics Compendium Sheets [D&D](1978,1980)
0036;Character Chronicle Cards [D&D](1978,1980)
0037;First Fantasy Campaign [Blackmoor]
0038;17"x22" Judges First Fantasy Campaign Map [D&D](1978)
0039;17"x22" Players First Fantasy Campaign Map (1977)
0040;Judges Guild T-Shirt Adult Sizes: S-M-L-XL
0041;Judges Guild T-Shirt Children Sizes: S-M-L-XL
0042;Judges Guildmember Button
0043;N Booklet: Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes
0044;17"x22" Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Stepps Campaign Map
0045;Judges Guild Journal 5/N (Mag)
0046;Wilderlands Hex Sheets
0047;Campaign Hexagon System (1977)
0048;Wilderlands of High Fantasy (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1977)
0049;Valon/Tarantis Issue O (Includes Campaign Maps 1-5[judges+players
copies]) [D&D](1977)
0050;17"x22" Wilderlands Campaign Map from Issue O
0051;Judges Guild Journal 6/O (Mag)
0052;Thieves of Badabaskor [D&D](1978)
0053;Judges Guild Journal 7/P (Mag)
0054;P Booklet & Thieves of Badabaskor [D&D]
0055;Gencon IX [1976] Dungeon (1978)
0056;Judges Guild Journal 8/Q (Mag) [D&D](1978)
0057;Q Booklet & GenCon IX [1976] Dungeons [D&D]
0058;Judges Guild Journal 9/R (Mag) [D&D]
0059;Village Book I [R Booklet?] [D&D](1978)
0060,Castle Book I [D&D]
0061;Island Book I [D&D](1978)
0062;Revised City State of the Invincible Overlord [D&D](1978)
0063;Citadel of Fire (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1978,1980)
0064;Judges Guild Journal 10/S (Mag) (Includes Campaign Maps
7-10[judges+players copies]) [D&D]
0065;S Booklet & Citadel of Fire
0066;Sea Steeds & Wave Riders (1st Ed/2nd Ed) (1978)
0067;Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde (Includes Campaign Maps 7-10) [D&D]
0068;War Cry & Battle Lust (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1979)
0069;Flotilla One [D&D]
0070;Judges Guild Journal 11/T Booklet (Mag)
0071;Frontier Forts of Kelnore [AD&D](1979)
0072;T Booklet & Frontier Forts [AD&D](1980)
0073;The Dungeoneer Compendium of 1-6 (Mag)
0076;Dragon Crown (Includes Campaign Maps 11-14[judges+players copies])
[D&D](1980)
0077;Judges Guild Journal 12/U Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1979)
0080;Of Skulls & Scrapfaggot Green [D&D](1979)
0081;Dungeoneer 9 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
0082;Judges Guild Journal 13/V Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1979)
0083;Journal 13 and Part I of Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
0084;Dungeoneer 10 (Mag)
0085;Dungeoneer 7 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
0086;Dungeoneer 8 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
0087;Character Codex [D&D](1979)
0088;Dark Tower [AD&D](1979)
0090;Judges Guild Journal 14/W Booklet (Mag) [AD&D](1979)
0091;Journal 14 and Part II of Wilderlands of the Magic Realm [D&D](1979)
0092;Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
0093;Under the Storm Giants Castle [D&D/AD&D](1979)
0094;Dungeoneer 11 (Mag) [AD&D](1979)
0095;Survival of the Fittest (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [AD&D](1979)
0096;Treasury of Archaic Names [D&D](1980)
0097;Judges Guild Journal 15/X Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1980)
0098;Judges Guild Journal 15 & Survival of the Fittest
0101;Dungeoneer 12 (Mag)[AD&D](1980)
0102;Caverns of Thracia (1979)
0103;Judges Guild Journal 16/Y Booklet (Mag) (Includes Campaign Map 6
[judges+players copies] & City-State map) [D&D](1980)
0104;Village Book II
0106;Dungeoneer 13 (Mag)
0108;Verbosh
0109;Operation Ogre
0110;Judges Guild Journal 17/Z Booklet (Mag)
0111;Mines of Custlcon (Wilderness Book 1 of 5)
0112;Judges Guild Journal 17 & Mines of Custalon [AD&D](1980)
0113;Book of Treasure Maps [AD&D]
0114;Maltese Clue [AD&D](1980)
0115;Dungeoneer 14 (Mag) (1980)
0117;Temple of Ra Accursed by Set [AD&D](1980)
0118;Sword of Hope
0119;Tower of Ulisson
0121;Judges Guild Journal 18 (Mag) (Includes Campaign Maps 15-18)
[D&D](1980)
0122;Guildmember Installment 18: Tower of Ullision & Journal (Includes
Campaign Maps 15-18) 18 [D&D](1980)
0124;Escape from Astigar's Lair [D&D](1980)
0125;Dungeoneer 15 (Mag)
0140;Castle Book II
0150;City State of the World Emperor
0152;City Map - for City State of the World Emperor
0153;Judges Campaign Map 6--City State of the World Emperor [D&D](1980)
0154;Players Campaign Map 6--City State of the World Emperor
0155;Book I of the City State of the World Emperor
0156;Book II of the City State of the World Emperor [AD&D](1981)
0157;Book III of the City State of the World Emperor
0160;Judges Guild Journal 19 (Mag)(1980)
0161;Guildmember Installment 19: misc. City State of World Emp & Journal 19
0180;Dungeoneer 16 (Mag) [AD&D](1981)
0190;The Treasure Vaults of Lindoran [AD&D]
0200;Judges Guild Journal 20 [AD&D](1981)
0205;Guildmember Installment 20: City [AD&D](1981)
0210;Inferno [AD&D](1981)
0230;Dungeoneer 17 (Mag) [AD&D](1981)
0240;The Fantasy Cartographer's Field Book
0260;Portals of Torsh
0270;Spies of Lightelf (Wilderness Book 2 of 5)
0280;Judges Guild Journal 21 [AD&D](1981)
0285;Guildmember Installment 21: Shops [AD&D](1981)
0290;Dungeoneer 18 (Mag)
0300;Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches (Includes Campaign Maps 15-18)
0320;Book of Treasure Maps II
0360;Laser Tank
0370;Dungeoneer 19/Judges Guild Journal 22 (Mag)
0375;Guildmember Installment 22: Fantastic Reaches Part I
0390;Dungeoneers Journal 23 (Mag)
0395;Guildmember Installment 23: Fantastic Reaches Part II(1982)
0410;The Astrogators Chart Book
0420;Unknown Gods
0440;Temple Book I (items: JG 14,34,52,67,113,420?) [D&D]
0450;Dungeoneers Journal 24 (Mag) (items: 71,102,270,300,320?) [D&D]
0455;Guildmember Installment 24: Temple Book I (items; JG
27,61,63,92,111,118?)
0460;Book of Ruins [D&D]
0470;Dungeoneers Journal 25 (Mag) (items: JG 87,109,560,630,750,770?) [AD&D]
0475;Guildmember Installment 25: Temple Book II (items: JG
114,260,460,570,650,660,670?)
0530;Ravenscrag
0550;The Field Guide to Encounters
0560;Portals of Irontooth
0570;The Quest for Lara's Tower
0600;Pegasus 1 (Mag) (The Black Ring) (1982)
0610;Pegasus 2 (Mag) (Revelshire)
0620;Pegasus 3 (Mag) (Isle of the Blest)
0630;Dragon's Hall
0650;Trial by Fire
0660;Zienteck
0670;House on Hangman's Hill
0680;Tower of Indomitable Circumstance
0690;Masters of Mind
0700;Restormel
0750;Illhiedron Book
0770;Portals of Twilight
0780;Pegasus 4 (Mag) (Isle of Tirnanog)
0790;F'dech Fo's Tomb
0800;Glory Hole Dwarven Mine
0810;Fantastic Personalities
0820;Heroic Expeditions
0830;Pegasus 5 (Mag) (Quest for the Sea Empress)
0840;Prey of Darkness
0860;Wraith Overlord: Terror Beneath the City State
0870;Pegasus 6 (Mag) (The Azurerain Pirates)
0910;Corsairs of Talibar
0920;Wondrous Relics
0970;Pegasus 7 (Mag) (Aelel's Tutoring Service/Tower of Mabeleck/Ktheta's
Dark Response/Pyramid of Suberus)
0990;Book of Treasure Maps III
1000;Lurid Lairs
1010;Shield Maidens of Sea Rune (Wilderness Book 3 of 5)
1021;Fantasy Game Aid Pack
1022;Fantasy Adventure Pack
1023;Fantasy Campaign Booster Pack
1024;Fantasy Campaign Pack
1025;Treasure Pack
1026;Adventure Module Pack
1030;Pirates of Hagrost (Wilderness Book 4 of 5)
1040;Wondrous Weapons
1070;Inns and Taverns
1090;Witches Court Marshes (Wilderness Book 5 of 5)
1100;Caves & Caverns
1110;Imperial Infantry Squad (Box)
1120;City State Warfare (Box)
1130;Druids of Doom
1140;Demons of Dundurn
1160;Pegasus 10 (Mag) (Revenge of the Ant God)
1170;In Search of Kelandor's Gold
1200;[City State of] Tarantis
1210;Pegasus 12 (Mag) (Ignoble Inns)
1230;Book of Amulets and Talismans
9991;Thunderhold Installment: items 15-17
9992;Campaign Installment: items 18-20
9993;Pegasus 8 (Mag) (Threat in the North)
9994;Pegasus 9 (Mag) (Nirang's Keep)
9995;Pegasus 11 (Mag) (Rumors at the Wayfarer's Inn)
9996;Lara's Tower [AD&D](1981)
0330;The Fantasy Gamer's Compendium
0454;The Original Tegel Manor, Revised and Expanded
stephenJ
BADMIKE3 wrote:
>
> Actually, my experience isn't limited..
The number of people you've talked with in 20 gaming years (same as me,
BTW) is absurdly limited when compared with how many 1st edition gamers
are out there...
..I would have never based that
> observation on one or two old-time gamers I've met. When I do find
> someone who has gamed long enough to actually know what the hell Judge's
> Guild is, they invariably also play 1st edition and are adamant in their
> dislike for the post-Gygax 2nd edition stuff (unless like me they are a
> collector, or they like to update the stuff to 2nd edition). I realize
> the evidence is anecdotal, but that's all I have to go on.
The lesson to be learned, then, is if all the evidence you have is
anecdotal, then don't go on it, because it's not generalizable...
> Once again, I PLAY 1ST EDITION!!! Are you listening to me or your inner
> voice? Or do you just conveniently forget the parts you don't like?
I read your description of your whole gaming history, including your
fondness for 1st edition. So?
> I'm just silly that way...to date, though, no one except you has disagreed
> with my opinions. I would give anyone who disagreed with me a chance to
> give me a reason..for example, why is Caverns of Thracia better than
> Ruins, Night Below or Gates of Firestorm Peak? (Your statement) "Sure it
> is" is not an arguement I'm going to respect, sorry.
I don't make arguments for you to respect or not respect. When it comes
to stuff like "is module X better than module Y", it *is* all opinion,
no one is right or wrong. And neither party is required to write a
detailed explanation for their opinion....
> In my opinion, the new Batman movie is too campy and Clooney is a lousy
> Batman. Whoops! I haven't seen it yet, but I saw the trailers...The
> point I was making was that I would respect your opinion much more if you
> indicated you'd actually read the offending material. You admitted you
> didn't, and were basing your opinion on "glancing" at the material.
No, i said i'd looked at it enough to form an *informed* opinion about
it....
> Name the "sad" 2nd edition material you enjoy so much...again, I'm
> seriously interested in what you like and why.
I didn't say i liked 2nd edition stuff per se, i said i liked stuff that
came out after Gygax left, becasue you accused me of not liking anything
after Gygax. For example, i think the Manual of the Planes is one of the
best products TSR ever made. Tremendous value for the money. I also
enjoyed the munchkiny "Bloodstone Pass" series of modules, both Book of
Lairs, and the Dragonlance Adventures book. All of which came out after
Gygax left TSR. As for second edition, yes, i tried it and gave up on it
early on. When it came out, i bought the PHB, the DMG, and later the
TOM. I also bought some early modules like "vale of the mage", "vecna
lives", and the "falconmaster" trilogy. Basically, i disliked all of
these. Except for the NWP's in the PHB. I incorporated them into my
game. Otherwise, i occasionally skim or read thru a 2nd edition product
that a friend buys. Nothing i'ver ever read has made my regret my
decision to stick with 1st edition....
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33cdf70a....@news.anet-chi.com>, aa...@anet-chi.com wrote:
>In Aristotle's case, it's difficult but not impossible, but it'd help if
>he'd give a few honest reviews of the few 2nd ed products he's bought and
>actually liked.
I liked the 2nd edition PHB and DMS guide. I liked the first 2 Monstrous
Compendium supplements. I liked the Psions Handbook, and the thief handbook
was decent. The rest of the handbooks were pretty sorry (especially the race
handbooks).
I have the Planescape boxed set, which would be good if they weren't trying to
jam down your throat the necessity of purchasing more supplements.
Ravenloft was a kickass world. However, every supplment I have bought from it
is crap. The worst of these was A Light in the Belfry. I have never regretted
a purchase any more than that. At that same time, I bought "Forged of
Darkness" from the Ravenloft setting, and that was also tripe with enormous
margins and little content.
stephenJ
Aardy R. DeVarque wrote:
>
> On the topic of Judges Guild products, I'm trying to compile a list of all
> the JG products that work with D&D/AD&D (but *not* a list of all the various
> printings of each!). Here's a list I cribbed from David Papay's non-TSR
> price list, with some additions from another JG web page. Problem being,
> I'm not intimately familiar with JG at *all*.
>
> What I'd like to know is, what should I add/remove from this list, and does
> anyone have any corrections?
>
> 0001;34"x44" City State map (4 sections)
> 0002;Dungeon Tac Cards [D&D](1976)
> 0003;I Booklet (1 of 3 for the original City State)
> 0004;17"x22" City State Player Map
> 0005;Six Charts - 5 Men Attack, 1 Monster Attack
> 0006;Six Charts - 5 Chainmail, 1 Monster Attack
> 0007;Six Monster Attack Charts
> 0008;Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5
> 0009;17"x22" City State Judge's Map
> 0010;Guide to the City State
> 0011;Special Starter Package (D&D plus Guildmember Subscriptions) [D&D]
> 0012;City State of the Invincible Overlord Game Aid [AD&D](1976,1979)
Perhaps the best city-supplement i've ever seen.
> 0013;Deluxe Fantasy Package (JG 12 + D&D + dice set) [D&D]
> 0014;Ready Ref Book (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1977/1978)
> 0015;J Maps (Thunderhold/Sunstone Cavern)
> 0016;J Booklet (Thunderhold) and Ready Ref Chart
> 0017;Dungeon Levels Maps J 1-4
> 0018,17"x22" Judges City State Campaign Map
> 0019;17"x22" Players City State Campaign Map
> 0020;Booklet K (City State Campaign 1) and Ready Ref Sheets
> 0021;I;J;K Journals (1,2)
> 0022;Judges Guild Journal L (3)
> 0023;17"x22" Tegel Manor and Area Judges Map
One of my favorites...
> 0024;11"x17" Tegel Manor and Area Players Map
> 0025;L Booklet (Tegel Manor) and Character Sheets
> 0027;Tegel Manor Installment: items 22-25 (1980)
> 0028;Judges Shield [D&D]
> 0029;Six Character Checklists
> 0030;11"x17" Judges Tegel Manor Map [D&D](1977)
> 0031;City of Modron Maps--Judges and Players
> 0032;M Booklet (Modron)
> 0033;Judges Guild Journal M (4)
> 0034;Modron Installment: items 31-33
> 0035;Three Monstrous Statistics Compendium Sheets [D&D](1978,1980)
> 0036;Character Chronicle Cards [D&D](1978,1980)
> 0037;First Fantasy Campaign [Blackmoor]
Dave Arneson's account of the beginning of his Blackmoor campaign, a
must for those interested in the origins of the game.
> 0038;17"x22" Judges First Fantasy Campaign Map [D&D](1978)
> 0039;17"x22" Players First Fantasy Campaign Map (1977)
The above 2 maos come with the FFC...
> 0040;Judges Guild T-Shirt Adult Sizes: S-M-L-XL
> 0041;Judges Guild T-Shirt Children Sizes: S-M-L-XL
> 0042;Judges Guildmember Button
> 0043;N Booklet: Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes
> 0044;17"x22" Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Stepps Campaign Map
> 0045;Judges Guild Journal 5/N (Mag)
> 0046;Wilderlands Hex Sheets
> 0047;Campaign Hexagon System (1977)
> 0048;Wilderlands of High Fantasy (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1977)
> 0049;Valon/Tarantis Issue O (Includes Campaign Maps 1-5[judges+players
> copies]) [D&D](1977)
> 0050;17"x22" Wilderlands Campaign Map from Issue O
> 0051;Judges Guild Journal 6/O (Mag)
> 0052;Thieves of Badabaskor [D&D](1978)
Very cool thief-oriented DD adventure...
> 0053;Judges Guild Journal 7/P (Mag)
> 0054;P Booklet & Thieves of Badabaskor [D&D]
> 0055;Gencon IX [1976] Dungeon (1978)
Excellent set of tournament-style scenarios. Great for a short "book of
lairs" style excursions...
> 0056;Judges Guild Journal 8/Q (Mag) [D&D](1978)
> 0057;Q Booklet & GenCon IX [1976] Dungeons [D&D]
> 0058;Judges Guild Journal 9/R (Mag) [D&D]
> 0059;Village Book I [R Booklet?] [D&D](1978)
> 0060,Castle Book I [D&D]
> 0061;Island Book I [D&D](1978)
> 0062;Revised City State of the Invincible Overlord [D&D](1978)
> 0063;Citadel of Fire (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1978,1980)
On of my favorite modules...
> 0064;Judges Guild Journal 10/S (Mag) (Includes Campaign Maps
> 7-10[judges+players copies]) [D&D]
> 0065;S Booklet & Citadel of Fire
> 0066;Sea Steeds & Wave Riders (1st Ed/2nd Ed) (1978)
> 0067;Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde (Includes Campaign Maps 7-10) [D&D]
> 0068;War Cry & Battle Lust (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [D&D](1979)
> 0069;Flotilla One [D&D]
> 0070;Judges Guild Journal 11/T Booklet (Mag)
> 0071;Frontier Forts of Kelnore [AD&D](1979)
> 0072;T Booklet & Frontier Forts [AD&D](1980)
> 0073;The Dungeoneer Compendium of 1-6 (Mag)
> 0076;Dragon Crown (Includes Campaign Maps 11-14[judges+players copies])
> [D&D](1980)
> 0077;Judges Guild Journal 12/U Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1979)
> 0080;Of Skulls & Scrapfaggot Green [D&D](1979)
> 0081;Dungeoneer 9 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
> 0082;Judges Guild Journal 13/V Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1979)
> 0083;Journal 13 and Part I of Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
> 0084;Dungeoneer 10 (Mag)
> 0085;Dungeoneer 7 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
> 0086;Dungeoneer 8 (Mag) [D&D](1979)
> 0087;Character Codex [D&D](1979)
> 0088;Dark Tower [AD&D](1979)
All-time high level monster-mash classic! Paul Jacquays at his best!
> 0090;Judges Guild Journal 14/W Booklet (Mag) [AD&D](1979)
> 0091;Journal 14 and Part II of Wilderlands of the Magic Realm [D&D](1979)
> 0092;Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
> 0093;Under the Storm Giants Castle [D&D/AD&D](1979)
Inventive module. More rp-oriented than many of the JG adventures...
> 0094;Dungeoneer 11 (Mag) [AD&D](1979)
> 0095;Survival of the Fittest (1st Ed/2nd Ed) [AD&D](1979)
> 0096;Treasury of Archaic Names [D&D](1980)
> 0097;Judges Guild Journal 15/X Booklet (Mag) [D&D](1980)
> 0098;Judges Guild Journal 15 & Survival of the Fittest
> 0101;Dungeoneer 12 (Mag)[AD&D](1980)
> 0102;Caverns of Thracia (1979)
Another timeless Jacquays classic. Perfect for low-mid level DD or ADD
adventuring...
> 0103;Judges Guild Journal 16/Y Booklet (Mag) (Includes Campaign Map 6
> [judges+players copies] & City-State map) [D&D](1980)
> 0104;Village Book II
> 0106;Dungeoneer 13 (Mag)
> 0108;Verbosh
> 0109;Operation Ogre
> 0110;Judges Guild Journal 17/Z Booklet (Mag)
> 0111;Mines of Custlcon (Wilderness Book 1 of 5)
> 0112;Judges Guild Journal 17 & Mines of Custalon [AD&D](1980)
> 0113;Book of Treasure Maps [AD&D]
> 0114;Maltese Clue [AD&D](1980)
> 0115;Dungeoneer 14 (Mag) (1980)
> 0117;Temple of Ra Accursed by Set [AD&D](1980)
I like this one. It is rather linear and munchkiny, but it has a great
Egyptian-type atmosphere. Good for egyptian or desert type campaigns...
> 0118;Sword of Hope
> 0119;Tower of Ulisson
> 0121;Judges Guild Journal 18 (Mag) (Includes Campaign Maps 15-18)
> [D&D](1980)
> 0122;Guildmember Installment 18: Tower of Ullision & Journal (Includes
> Campaign Maps 15-18) 18 [D&D](1980)
> 0124;Escape from Astigar's Lair [D&D](1980)
> 0125;Dungeoneer 15 (Mag)
> 0140;Castle Book II
> 0150;City State of the World Emperor
> 0152;City Map - for City State of the World Emperor
Another good city-set. Not quite as nice as the "overlord" one, but
still great bang for the buck.
> 0153;Judges Campaign Map 6--City State of the World Emperor [D&D](1980)
> 0154;Players Campaign Map 6--City State of the World Emperor
> 0155;Book I of the City State of the World Emperor
> 0156;Book II of the City State of the World Emperor [AD&D](1981)
> 0157;Book III of the City State of the World Emperor
> 0160;Judges Guild Journal 19 (Mag)(1980)
> 0161;Guildmember Installment 19: misc. City State of World Emp & Journal 19
> 0180;Dungeoneer 16 (Mag) [AD&D](1981)
> 0190;The Treasure Vaults of Lindoran [AD&D]
> 0200;Judges Guild Journal 20 [AD&D](1981)
> 0205;Guildmember Installment 20: City [AD&D](1981)
> 0210;Inferno [AD&D](1981)
Excellent excursion into parts of the 9 hells. High level munchkins
only!
> 0230;Dungeoneer 17 (Mag) [AD&D](1981)
> 0240;The Fantasy Cartographer's Field Book
> 0260;Portals of Torsh
> 0270;Spies of Lightelf (Wilderness Book 2 of 5)
> 0280;Judges Guild Journal 21 [AD&D](1981)
> 0285;Guildmember Installment 21: Shops [AD&D](1981)
> 0290;Dungeoneer 18 (Mag)
> 0300;Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches (Includes Campaign Maps 15-18)
> 0320;Book of Treasure Maps II
All the "treasure maps" booklets provide neat short scenarios that any
pressed-for-time DM will enjoy....
Neat haunted-house type adventure...
Excellent elf-oriented adventure..
> 1200;[City State of] Tarantis
> 1210;Pegasus 12 (Mag) (Ignoble Inns)
> 1230;Book of Amulets and Talismans
> 9991;Thunderhold Installment: items 15-17
> 9992;Campaign Installment: items 18-20
> 9993;Pegasus 8 (Mag) (Threat in the North)
> 9994;Pegasus 9 (Mag) (Nirang's Keep)
> 9995;Pegasus 11 (Mag) (Rumors at the Wayfarer's Inn)
> 9996;Lara's Tower [AD&D](1981)
> 0330;The Fantasy Gamer's Compendium
> 0454;The Original Tegel Manor, Revised and Expanded
>
> Aardy R. DeVarque
> Feudalism: Serf & Turf
I highlighted the *modules* i like best. JG items also provide great
value-for-the-money in helping DM's design cities, seafaring, and
wilderness adventures...
--
Wkmccarthy
As to Aardy's JG list:
0360 Laser Tank was for Traveller I believe.
0410 Astrogator's Chart Book was for Traveller.
1000 Lurid Lairs never made it to print as far as anyone knows.
1070 Inns and Taverns never made it to print and were incorporated into
a Pegasus mag City-state installment (Peg 12, Ignoble Inns)
1110 Imperial Infantry Squad was mini rules for sci-fi games.
1230 Book of Amulets and Talismans never made it to print either AFAIK
That's all that I could pick out from the list. The most complete and
clear list
of JG material I have seen is Afterglow's Non-TSR AD&D/D&D List, which
needs an update actually, *hint, hint* to Matthias :-)
William McCarthy
Wkmcc...@aol.com
BADMIKE3
<<<Otherwise, i occasionally skim or read thru a 2nd edition product
that a friend buys. Nothing i'ver ever read has made my regret my
decision to stick with 1st edition....>>>
So you admit in your post you are unable or unwilling to write an
informed opinion (because you really don't care), you enjoy some of the
worst abominations ever to come out from TSR (the H-series); and you
haven't read, and don't intend to read, some the best 2nd edition items
ever released and instead consider some poor 2nd edition releases
representative of the entire line (Vale of the Mage, Vecna Lives, and the
Falcon series are widely considered pretty pedestrian stuff). Good Gravy,
why are you even arguing about this? Just admit you don't have a clue
about what you're talking about, and let's move on...
<<<What most 1st edition players hate is the fact that T$R was pumping out
such a glut of materials, modules, supplements, books, etc, it became
extremely
difficult locate the few quality products. It was like finding the
proverbial
needle in the haystack.>>>
I've had no problem..absolutely no problem. I don't think most
experienced gamers should have too much trouble here....for casual gamers,
it's a different story. I read the descriptions when the catalogs are
released, mark a few promising items, listen to feedback on this newsgroup
and from gamers, actually look at the item when it comes in ( which is why
I didn't buy the Player's Option books when they came out), and take the
plunge. I've very rarely been disappointed. Even then, most quality
gaming or bookstores will take returns if the items aren't mangeled (If
not, you need to shop elsewhere...). I hit an occasional dud....just like
I go to the movies and hit an occassional dud. As much as I love 1st
edition, I still remember getting home and reading UK1 and WG7 and feeling
like someone had stole my money. The same thing happens with 2nd edition,
even with the research; Ruins of UM II ( a terrible product) somehow
slipped by, as did Dragon Mountain (some gamers really like this item, I
was not impressed).
However, I do empathize with the casual buyer/gamer who doesn't have
the background, or can't really find time to check out what he/she's
buying. I was in a hobby store last week, and a kid and his mom came
in..."My son wants to play AD&D, he has the core books, what should he buy
next?" On the shelf were some Birthright, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Forgotten
Realms, and even a smattering of Spelljammer and Lanhkmar. The guy working
that day was the Magic guy (guy specialized in Magic Cards) and didn't
have a CLUE what to recommend...the choices literally brain-zapped the
poor kid and his mom. I finally got tired of the Magic guy reading the
backs of the modules to the mom and his kid and intervened. I've seen
parents walk in wanting to buy something RPG for Junior, and the plethora
of choices sends them to the video or Nintendo aisle, where a safer and
less brain-testing choice can be made. I'd consider this one of the top
problems with TSR, and hopefully they will address it by cutting back
their lines so as not to confuse the casual customer.
<<<Hmm. Before I comment let me admit that I am somehwat predjudiced
against any (but not all see below) TSR F-Realms products. With that in
mind let me say that IMHO City State is (at least for my purposes)
better then City of Splendor. However, I'd be the first to agree that
City of Splendors has much better production values than the JG
product.>>>
Wow, an intelligent opinon! YAHOO!!!!
<<<As you state above, many JG products were plagued with strange
and unusual production errors: Bad editing, Bad art and etc. (Under
the Storm Giants Castle==Just plain BAD!)>>>
But it's a classic in it's own twisted way...sort of the "Plan Nine from
Outer Space" of FRP modules. When a friend first bought it, and quoted me
passages from it over email, I seriously thought he was making the stuff
up.
<<<Furthermore, I'd agree that (on average and with exceptions)
TSR products created during the time that JG operated were better, often
much better, than equivalent JG products.>>>
I'd agree...I'd also add that with a bigger budget, better submissions,
and more promotion JG would have rivaled TSR releases (which of course TSR
would never have let happen...)
<<<I like Ruins (and will get Ruins II one of these days....),>>>
NO, Trevor, DON"T! It sucks and has absolutely no connection to Ruins
I...it reads like a series of rejected submissions to Dungeon magazine.
As a matter of fact, most Dungeon magazine adventures are light years
better.
<<<though I'm not a huge fan of CoS I'd agree that on the whole its
a "good" product.>>>
I think it's a great product mostly because not only does it contain
everything you might need to run an adventure in Waterdeep, most of the
tidbits can be transferred to anyone's home grown campaign with little
trouble. It's useful if all you want to do is cannabalize the thing. I
particularly like the short section about the shop owner and his day to
day life in Waterdeep...there's more ideas here for city adventuring than
in some entire products I've read. However, several of the items are
quite Waterdeep and FR specific, so I can see why someone who doesn't use
those worlds might find it less useful.
<<< My problem with the TSR's product policy of the last
few years is its "Nickel and Dime" philosophy. I rather liked Birthright
and bought the basic kit, then a couple of "player's secrets"...then
.... Well you get the idea. As with Dark Sun, I tired of having to
buy numerous items to be able to run a campaign in that world.
For all their flaws, most 1st ed TSR ADD products and JG products
were self contained. CityState can be modified (fairly easily)
and put anywhere.>>>
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this at all. I bought a few of the
Birthright secrets packets, without even buying the BR box set, and found
a lot of use as background for my own campaign. I wouldn't want to have
to buy 20 of them just to run a BR campaign, especially when they are
pretty skimpy and run $8 or so a pop...
In contrast, TSR classics like Bone Hill or G1 can be plopped down
almost anywhere without further elaboration. The Judge's Guild Treasure
Map books feature many adventures that can be used the same way...
<<<> Trevor says:
> <<<Yes, slick is the word that must be applied to con artists at
> Mayfair that came up with their "City State of the Invincible Overlord."
> The Mayfair "City State" had nothing in common with the JG "City State".
> Ugh. Stay far, far away from this abomination, and the CS companion box
> sets that were released at the same time. They are worse than bad.
Heh. Don't you have one of these sets for sale? :->>>>
Yeh, and now you know why... :>
And I'm losing money on it...if I ever even sell it...
Mike B.
Jason Hatter
ThresholdMURPE (thre...@athens.net) wrote:
: Ravenloft was a kickass world. However, every supplment I have bought from it
: is crap. The worst of these was A Light in the Belfry. I have never regretted
Have you purchased any of the Van Rictens Guides? They contain a lot of
good information and ideas on how to customize some of the standard AD&D
monsters that people start yawning about, like vampires, werecreatures,
golems, ghosts, etc.
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff currently being revised
Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.shtml (modified!)
Jason M Hatter
stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I don't make arguments for you to respect or not respect. When it comes
: to stuff like "is module X better than module Y", it *is* all opinion,
: no one is right or wrong. And neither party is required to write a
: detailed explanation for their opinion....
True. However, I for one am curious as to why you like X over Y. I know
it's probably been a long time since you've read through Ruins of
Undermountain, but if you can, could you tell us HOW it had too much
narration, and not enough nuts and bolts? I don'th ave my copy handy, but
if I recall correctly, there are maybe 30 detailed encounters/rooms...out
of probably 1000+ rooms, with hints as to what may be here and there,
plus the cards with the commonly found traps and occasional minor treasures.
Doesn't seem to be filled with excessive narrration...
: No, i said i'd looked at it enough to form an *informed* opinion about
: it....
Actually, no you didn't. You said "Some of it. Was not impressed."
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon Picture Archive http://www.delta.edu/~jmhatter/archive.html
J. McGuire
Wkmccarthy wrote:
>
> As to Aardy's JG list:
>
> 0360 Laser Tank was for Traveller I believe.
I don't think it was ever officially approved. It was the right scale,
but AFAIK it came out as a generic pack.
-- Jean
Wintertree Software | Remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
THE BIG NEWS: Wintertree now takes credit cards! Plus, we just moved to
New Hampshire and redecorated the website! -- stop by for the details.
Sean Briggs
>> I'm just silly that way...to date, though, no one except you has
disagreed with my opinions. <<
I hate stepping into a potential flamewar, but I'll also say that I
enjoyed the old Judges Guild products far more than most recent TSR
products I've bought. I've been very disappointed with almost all the
TSR modules I've purchased in the past few years (I apologize for not
supplying specific product information, but I didn't bother to bring
them with me when I moved -- mostly FR stuff, with a little Greyhawk and
Ravenloft thrown in). That's not to say that TSR hasn't come out with
some good non-module items, but I've learned to examine them *very*
carefully before shelling out my money. That wasn't the case with JG
products, or even with most older AD&D supplements. As has been
mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I suspect that TSR's post-second
edition flood of products resulted in a serious loss of average quality.
The attraction that the old JG stuff has for me is that, although it can
be of wildly varying utility, it never failed to inspire me. There were
some wonderfully off-the-wall ideas contained in the products,
particularly in the various City-State products. Not all of them worked,
but they were worth tinkering with.
I don't care much for the current trend of providing a detailed
storyline in modules that are tailored for a specific world; there's
less there I can use if my campaign doesn't fit the relatively rigid
constraints. When I purchase a supplement, I'm not looking for something
to be spoon-fed to me. I'm looking for ideas that I can run with and
help me keep a campaign fresh, and that's what I feel has been lacking
recently in the TSR modules I've bought.
And I don't really have a preference about 1st vs. 2nd edition -- I
never really saw all that much difference between the two. <g>
- Sean Briggs
Phil Rhodes
On 16 Jul 1997 05:09:30 GMT, badm...@aol.com (BADMIKE3) wrote:
>Are you listening to me or your inner
>voice? Or do you just conveniently forget the parts you don't like?
Give that man a cigar! Mike, you just stumbled on the Jaros method of
debating. It's always good for clouding the air and obscuring the
issues.
--
-Phil (Phillip...@baylor.edu)
The Greyhawk/Greytalk FAQ can be found at:
http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/faq.htm
or http://www.torontoguide.com/greyfaq.nsf
Aardy R. DeVarque
Trevor...@acml.com wrote:
> badm...@aol.com (BADMIKE3) wrote:
> As you state above, many JG products were plagued with strange
>and unusual production errors: Bad editing, Bad art and etc. (Under
>the Storm Giants Castle==Just plain BAD!)
So bad editing and bad art are ok as long as it's not TSR doing it? ;)
In all seriousness, however, I'd like to know what some people's criteria
are for "good"--what combination of the price, the production quality, the
editing and the content add up to one product being superior than another?
> I like Ruins (and will get Ruins II one of these days....),
No, don't! Turn back, before it's too late!
No, really, conventional wisdom is that Ruins of Undermountain II should be
listed in the [Lake] Geneva Convention as Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
If you want to expand Undermountain, pick up The Lost Level,
Then consider getting Maddgoth's Castle & Stardock. (The former has some
major production problems, but they're easily fixable with some DM work; the
latter is *only* good for stealing chunks from, as its editing is
*seriously* flawed.
I think I got the errata list I compiled for Stardock up on my web
page--read it and see why I strongly advise people to avoid it unless
they're just looking for ideas to steal. I do think the crystal labyrinth
itself makes for a wonderful addition to Undermountain, though, and the
twist in the second half might make for some decent nostalgia for fans of a
certain dead campaign world (not Greyhawk...)
Mr. Tines
###
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:02:25 -0500, in <33CD0C...@ix.netcom.com>
stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote about 2nd edition.....
> When it came out, i bought the PHB, the DMG, and later the
> TOM. ... the NWP's in the PHB. I incorporated them into my
> game.
> Nothing i'ver ever read has made my regret my
> decision to stick with 1st edition....
This is a strange new definition of 1st edition I had not previously
encountered. You've adapted the major extension to the system that
marked out the new edition. What you're playing is 2nd edition
with some extra character classes and fireballs that don't top out.
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/ / / / _ \/ -_|_-< PGP key at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/1394
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Mr. Tines
###
On 16 Jul 1997 05:09:30 GMT, in
<19970716050...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
badm...@aol.com (BADMIKE3) wrote.....
> observation on one or two old-time gamers I've met. When I do find
> someone who has gamed long enough to actually know what the hell Judge's
> Guild is, they invariably also play 1st edition and are adamant in their
> dislike for the post-Gygax 2nd edition stuff (unless like me they are a
> collector, or they like to update the stuff to 2nd edition). I realize
So sorry to spoil your perfect collection.
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/ / / / _ \/ -_|_-< PGP key at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/1394
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BADMIKE3
>> I'm just silly that way...to date, though, no one except you has
disagreed with my opinions. <<
I hate stepping into a potential flamewar, but I'll also say that I
enjoyed the old Judges Guild products far more than most recent
TSRproducts I've bought. I've been very disappointed with almost all
theTSR modules I've purchased in the past few years>>>
No flamewars...just people posting opinions and responses. Jump right on
in...
>The attraction that the old JG stuff has for me is that, although it
can be of wildly varying utility, it never failed to inspire me. There
were some wonderfully off-the-wall ideas contained in the products,
particularly in the various City-State products. Not all of them worked,
but they were worth tinkering with.>>>>
I would agree with most of this. I was never too attracted to JG stuff
when it came out, as I considered it greatly inferior to TSR stuff
released at the same time. However, as time went on I picked up a few
here and there and discovered a lot of good, even great ideas packaged
here and there. Much of the newer stuff, particularly the Ravenloft and
Dragonlance releases, are pretty dud-like in comparison.
>I don't care much for the current trend of providing a detailed
>storyline in modules that are tailored for a specific world;
I agree, which is why I think the Marco Volo series (to pick an example)
and the Sword of the Dalelands series are some of the worst stuff TSR has
ever released.
As you state above, many JG products were plagued with strange
>and unusual production errors: Bad editing, Bad art and etc. (Under the
Storm Giants Castle==Just plain BAD!)
<<<So bad editing and bad art are ok as long as it's not TSR doing it? ;)
In all seriousness, however, I'd like to know what some people's
criteriaare for "good"--what combination of the price, the production
quality, theediting and the content add up to one product being superior
than another?>>>
No seriously, Storm Giant's Castle is REALLY bad; it sets some kind of a
standard that will never be equalled unless a small child somehow manages
to win a "Get your adventure in Dungeon this month!!!" contest, and
proceeds to drink heavily before submitting his adventure after heavy
random editing through consulting a Ouija board...
The Balloon People and the Vrag alone would make this adventure
memorable for all time...
For me, whether or not a adventure/supplement/box set is good depends on
several things:
1. Bang for the Buck: Will I use it over and over, running it a few
times, or will I read it through once and put it on the shelf for a couple
of years? Anything that I can run several times over a period of many
years (G1-3, D1-2, Ruins of UM) is something I've really got my money's
worth from. TSR needs to put out more products like Faiths & Avatars
(everyone I've talked to seems to love this, even if they don't adventure
in the Realms) and less like I, Tyrant.
2. What sets this item apart? Is it another boring dungeon hack, or is
there a germ of a great idea/characters/situations somewhere? One reason
I really like Gates of Firestorm Peak...it seemed quite unique (or, as
unique as the field will allow) in it's presentation and details. If I'm
not interested in the adventure, chances are my players aren't going to be
either.
3. Can I use parts of it elsewhere, or is it so location specific that it
will take me more time to tear it apart than to write my own adventure? I
rarely have time to work up my own adventures from scratch, I enjoy taking
the stats and/or the layouts from an existing "canned" adventure and
filling in the pieces. Stuff like Marco Volo is so hard to work with
there's really no point; I felt the same way about Stardock (although I
liked parts of it).
Here's a list of 2nd ed product I would unreservedly recommend. Most of
this has a definite "1st edition" feel, which is probably intentional. A
lot of it can be cannabalized for useful parts, which I like to do...
Ruins of Undermountain (1st only!), Labyrinth of Madness, Gates of
Firestorm Peak, City of Splendors, FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar ( a
VERY underrated product, excellent for low level adventuring parties and
DM's), Night Below, and the various "Volo's Guides", which contain
location descriptions, spells and items that can be placed in anyone's
campaign. As a supplement, Faiths and Avatars is incredible...a massive
work that covers in detail one world's dieties and the specifics for
priesthoods. Any enterprising DM can transfer this to his world with
little effort. I'm also one of those few who enjoyed the Greyhawk From
the Ashes box set, mostly because it shook-up a gameworld I had lost
interest in (this perked it up!). It had some large flaws, but I think for
$20 it was quite an excellent buy considering that the FR box set was $30
and not half as interesting. Like anything else, this is a subjective
list...
Mike B.
BADMIKE3
Responding to a list on another thread, I would have to say my favorite
Judge's Guild supplements are City State of the Invincible Overlord,
Wraith Overlord, Caverns of Thracia, Book of Treasure Maps I-III, Dark
Tower, and First Fantasy Campaign (for it's historical value alone).
There are plenty of other good ones, and just as many duds, but these are
the ones I've enjoyed reading and using the most. Anyone else care to
post a list? I also think it would be interesting to see some reviews of
the various JG products, good or bad, by people that have these. It might
help some of the gamers out there who have their interest piqued to look
for a few of these items...
Mike B.
Dave
BADMIKE3 <badm...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970718083...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
I've always liked Treasure Vaults of Lindoran. To me, it always kind of
seemed like Tomb of Horrors Jr. (meant as a compliment). Somethings need
to get fleshed out some more, but overall it's a decent adventure.
--
-Dave
Fairbanks was to Sullivan as Parcells is to Kraft