[SR] Karma (1st through 3rd edition)

Gurth

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Feb 28, 2018, 10:10:16 AM2/28/18

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Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such make way
more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I mis-read something?)

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Alex Pennock

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Feb 28, 2018, 10:41:44 PM2/28/18

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I've always found that character advancement was a difficult issue with
Shadowrun because of karma itself.

Begining Shadowrun characters come out pretty potent already - my
freshly minted Troll street samurai is going to be really threatened by
a fellow world-class fighter, if we go by the way skill ratings are
represented in 3rd edition.

If we burn good karma, we're stressing utility and downplaying
spending points to improve your stats. The downside is that someone who
uses karma just for stat increases quickly being stolen outstrip his
teammates in a way that feels unnatural, hard to explain using the
story of the game.

If we use karma pool then we are on a path and potentially a race to
the end where high-karma characters cannot be challenged and "retire"
or are somehow removed from play.

As a DM, I've used the karma pool system as I ran 2nd and 3rd. I found
myself turning to other means of character advancement - gear,
contacts, story-related stuff - rather than the karma system to try to
create that feeling of advancement and accomplishment.

It's still something I struggle with, even more so when you have a
mage in the party and the initiation and metamagic rules come into
play.

I guess that's my last gripe, karma is a universal mechanic with
unequel use, I find that to be a bad piece of design.

Ubiquitous

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Mar 1, 2018, 6:50:03 PM3/1/18

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On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 10:10:16 AM UTC-5, Gurth wrote:

> Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such
> make way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I

> misread something?)

Yes and no.

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Jim Musolf

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Mar 1, 2018, 6:56:57 PM3/1/18

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On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 17:17:43 UTC-5, Gurth wrote:

> Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such
> make way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I

> misread something?)

I like having players spend Good Karma rather than Karma Pool.

Good Karma you can burn as much of it as you have/need to get the job
done, but every point of it hurts... after leaning on that mechanic a
few times to dodge assault cannon shots or make sure a doc brings you
back from the dead, you realize that you could have bumped up a skill
level / stat / learned some spells / etc.

Karma Pool is safe, you're not really paying a cost for getting away
with pushing your limits if those points just come back every game
session. At the same time you lose the mechanic that lets you dig
yourself out of those really deep holes.

There's nothing quite as Shadowrun as earning a pile of Karma one week
saving a petting zoo from being bulldozed, and spending all of it the
next on successes for some incredibly selfish paydata run.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Mar 1, 2018, 6:58:51 PM3/1/18

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Usually the players in mine spent to save themselves during heroic runs.

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VTheCatV

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Mar 1, 2018, 7:03:08 PM3/1/18

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In article <985626234946630...@groups.facebook.com>,

The ideal arc, I think, is for players to spend increasing amounts of
good karma on die rolls / quickening / etc as the campaign progresses
... buy up stats to avoid having any exploitable flaws, improve existing
skills and add diversity, but increasingly get into those situations
where you're having a hard time saving up for another point of Firearms
(which would barely matter anyway) with all the buying rerolls and
miracle saves.

Thanks and Cheers,
The Cat

Gurth

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Mar 7, 2018, 4:18:49 AM3/7/18

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web...@polaris.net wrote:
>On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 10:10:16 AM UTC-5, Gurth wrote:
>
>> Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such
>> make way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I
>> misread something?)
>
>Yes and no.

I'd love to hear your reasoning - I've not played 1e enough to form a
valid opinion

Jonathan

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Mar 7, 2018, 4:22:48 AM3/7/18

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gu...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
>
>Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such make
>way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I mis-read
>something?)

Frank Ketchum

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Mar 7, 2018, 4:27:47 AM3/7/18

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The entire Karma model in 3e along with the literal interpretation of
"magic and metahumans" are key reasons why I play 5e instead.

Gurth

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Mar 7, 2018, 4:30:23 AM3/7/18

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fket...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> The entire Karma model in 3e along with the literal interpretation of
>"magic and metahumans" are key reasons why I play 5e instead.

"literal interpretation of 'magic and metahumans'"? Could you go into
further detail on what you mean there?

Ubiquitous

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Mar 7, 2018, 1:23:57 PM3/7/18

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gu...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>web...@polaris.net wrote:
>>On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 10:10:16 AM UTC-5, Gurth wrote:

>>> Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such
>>> make way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I
>>> misread something?)
>>
>>Yes and no.
>
>I'd love to hear your reasoning - I've not played 1e enough to form a
>valid opinion

In the first edition, there was no differentiation for karma, so karma
for rerolls was deducted from karma used for improving your char. In
2nd edtion, you'll always have Good Karma but I found that once you
start to reach double-digits, it becomes harder to challenge the
players -- and don't get me started on Team Karma Pools. >:-(

Ingo Siekmann

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Mar 7, 2018, 1:30:34 PM3/7/18

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Ubiquitous schrieb:

>gu...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>web...@polaris.net wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 10:10:16 AM UTC-5, Gurth wrote:
>
>>>> Is it just me, or does 1e's use of Good Karma for re-rolls & such
>>>> make way more sense than the Karma Pool form 2 & 3e? (or have I
>>>> misread something?)
>>>
>>>Yes and no.
>>
>>I'd love to hear your reasoning - I've not played 1e enough to form a
>>valid opinion
>
>In the first edition, there was no differentiation for karma, so karma
>for rerolls was deducted from karma used for improving your char. In
>2nd edtion, you'll always have Good Karma but I found that once you
>start to reach double-digits, it becomes harder to challenge the
>players -- and don't get me started on Team Karma Pools. >:-(

The secret to that is getting your players to burn karma. If they get
to 9 without burning any the game is too easy. Adversity is the spice
of life.

Bye
Ingo

Henning Blohm

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Mar 7, 2018, 1:33:23 PM3/7/18

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I agree, but it's weird how much they cling to it - I mean, I've had
players who'd rather take a chance on falling damage than burn a karma
to have not fallen...

Frank Ketchum

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Mar 9, 2018, 10:37:37 AM3/9/18

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gu...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>fket...@earthlink.net wrote:

>> The entire Karma model in 3e along with the literal interpretation of
>>"magic and metahumans" are key reasons why I play 5e instead.
>
>"literal interpretation of 'magic and metahumans'"? Could you go into
>further detail on what you mean there?

Sure. Is a Shadowrun Ork actually an "ork", or is he a supernaturally
genetically altered human with a street-slang label? In 1e, it's clear
he's the latter. In 3e, they vibe the whole presentation as if he's an
orc in 2050.