What's Wrong With TSR/T$R
Ben Goodwin
disdain the readers of this group take towards TSR has got me wondering,
what have they done?
So, if you have a minute I would like you to E-Mail me your reasons
for hating TSR. Specifically, I would like examples of policy and actions
taken by them that show them to be a #*&^#&# moneygrubbing bunch of #*##&
jerks.
Please don't post. E-Mail me if you can. I'll post the results if there
is interest and if I receive enough replies.
PS: I know about the banning of SS from GENCON so don't send a post
with this as a reason. :)
--
-Ben
Peter Wake
>I've been reading this group for about a year now. The overall hatred and
>disdain the readers of this group take towards TSR has got me wondering,
>what have they done?
I'll try and explain what I don't like about TSR.
One of things that TSR has done that most annoyed me was the sidelining
of 'Basic' D&D. The first basic set (not the orignal blue D&D book
which was a load of crap) was released about the same time as the DMG
and was soon followed by the expert set. You could integrate the two
books by cutting them up which was very useful. The system was more
elegant and less full of stupid rules to play lawyer with. The classes
blanced better (well you can see I liked it anyway) and it had numerous
other good qualities.
Further supplements were promised but never appeared. Then the basic
set was reissued in a new and irritating format. Info was split
amongst two books with an emphasis on keeping stuff from the players.
The books were fiddly to use and were an obvious cash in strategy.
Eventually the companion, master and finally immortal rules were
released. Of course they were in the new format (annoying and hard to
use) and were more or less unsupported with scenario material. Owners
of the old basic and expert sets were practically forced to buy he new
basic set and expert set to make the cross-referencing etc. work. Now
we have another basic set and it's really a crock... More of a
marketing concept than a game.
Of course TSR never liked the 'basic' system because for the price of a
PHB you could play D&D. For the price of a PHB and MM1 you could play
up to high levels (certainly as high as anyone ever played in AD&D).
Even worse 'basic' D&D wasn't a prestige product - there were no flash
looking hard back books, no FF, no MM2 or other useless crap to buy.
D&D just didn't have the same money making potential and it was always
kept the poor relation to AD&D. TSR could (and perhaps should) have
released the whole of basic, expert and companion in one hardback for
the price of the DMG but that would have shown how they were coining it
selling people three (+) books when they only really needed one.
Of course TSR always liked to produce more amd more expansions that
gullible kids would buy to keep up with their friends. Expansions that
were in general complete excrement: UA, MM2, and MotP did nothing good
for the game but a lot for TSR's bank balance.
If AD&D is the FORTRAN of gaming then TSR are the IBM: "Buy our
mainframe and you're ours forever"
GREAT TSR CASH IN GAMES
(OK we've got the cover art now where's the game?)
Star Frontiers
This had the saddest and most unoriginal game universe ever produced.
It was a sorry system which failed to produce any interest. An
equipment catalogue made major rules changes! GDW were not scared. I
played this game but after Traveller it was a joke.
That 1920's thing that I can't remember the name of
Released with Start Frontiers it sank without trace. Total cash in
failure occurred.
Indiana Jones
Warning Bill Robinson Trade Mark Alert. This must have been the most
TM'd game ever produced. A lame licenced effort not massively
different to Star Frontiers with respect to some mechanics. I played
this five or six times - pure tediom. All they really had to sell was
the Indiana Jones name. Some attempts to be a poor man's CoC failed.
Chaosium probably never noticed it existed.
Boot Hill
Yes a really old game. It seemed to consist entirely of throwing
dynamite. OK if you like AD&D because the difference was hard to
spot. For some reason TSR thought AD&D characters might like to
cross-over into Boot Hill, perhaps to make AD&D players buy it.
Perhaps not as bad as most TSR efforts.
GREAT TSR MARKETING CONCEPTS
Wow here's where they really take off.
Yes the DragonLance cook book - full to the brim with sickly crap that
even half starved convention attendees won't eat.
DRAGONLANCE was TSRs greatest cash in effort at the time. Some
workmanlike genre fantasy was seamlessly grafted onto a set of
scenarios that allowed a very large party of players to behave exactly
like characters in books, right down to total loss of free will in the
interests of plot continuity. The books were crap the scenarios were
worse - cheered up only by some smart looking 3D maps.
THEN CAME THE FOLLOWUP: a whole host of merchandising swag was produced
to cash in on the success of the DragonLance series (or perhaps the
success of the cover art who can tell?) Calendars, posters,
computer-games, cook-books, source-books, and I'm sure pencil cases,
lunch-boxes and bumper-stickers.
They have since followed up on this in two ways.
More Elmore covers.
More merchandising tie-ins. "Get your Ravenloft lunch-boxes here!"
Including some very badly written books by E.G.G himself. Apparently
he has a lot of money so people think he can write fiction - bad
assumption.
Since DragonLance TSR have paid more attention to their cover art than
anything else. They act wisely for in this sad world cover-art sells
books. FASA know this too - look at ShadowRun. It's one thing to have
good quality art, I like that, but it is another to be blatantly
exploitive of women and the adolescent lusts of fourteen year-olds.
TSR sell their merchandise with sex - every supplement has a half naked
woman on the cover. The Drow supplement most amused me: we all know
Drow are black, really black, but not the TSR cover artist - to him
Drow are lightly coffee coloured because a black woman on the cover
would less less copy.
THE ICING ON THE CAKE
Here it is the brand new system from TSR, long awaited the game you've
never played before, a completly new idea - yes - it's AD&D two! The
old rules were a bit wobbly but AD&D2 is the most obvious cash in ever
produced: the OS/2 of role-playing games. It keeps all the things that
made AD&D distinctive and changd nothing of any real consequence. Yes,
it is massively different in detail and in organisation but
fundamentally it is the same game re-issued for no good reason.
Compare this to RQ2 - RQ3, which really are different games (though I
think the concept to RQ3 stinks too). Compare this with Megatraveller
- which was more of a re-print exercise than a rules change - necessary
because Traveller had grown too big for A5 booklets. GDW and Avalon
Hill have their own cash in policies and they're not perfect but TSR
are the target of this and AD&D2 has CASH IN written all over in in big
pink letters eighteen feet high with a flashing neon arrow pointing to
them.
Some other companies we should bite our thumbs at.
Games Workshop - top of my money-grubbing-cretin list any day.
R. Talsorian - The company with a first edition game that's a
considerable improvement over its second edition.
FASA - for those sexploitation covers on the ShadowRun stuff.
Ooh look another Cyberpunk cash in.
GDW - Traveller 2300, Dark Conspiracy and the pointless re-printing
of Twilight 2000. Candidates for worst view of 'future history' ever.
West End Games - TORG no no no.
Palladium Games - They copied AD&D!? Robotech licenced game was chronic.
Steve Jackson - GURPS cockroach (just kidding :-)
A nightmare: TSR get the Middle-Earth licence.
--
Peter Wake
My opinions are my own and they are absolutely 100% correct even if they are
bigotted, bitter and reactionary. (So there :-)
Carl E. Anderson
>
>A nightmare: TSR get the Middle-Earth licence.
>--
>Peter Wake
Oh my God! Don't even THINK of such things ...
Carl Anderson
John Francis
>>I've been reading this group for about a year now. The overall hatred and
>>disdain the readers of this group take towards TSR has got me wondering,
>>what have they done?
>
>I'll try and explain what I don't like about TSR.
>
>
>GREAT TSR MARKETING CONCEPTS
>
[criticism of DRAGONLANCE, Ravenloft, E.G.G.'s books, . . .]
And what about "Dark Sun"? An open invitation to munchkin abuse!
Ultra-high attribute scores, super-powerful spells, characters
that can turn into elementals, . . .
>THE ICING ON THE CAKE
>Here it is the brand new system from TSR, long awaited the game you've
>never played before, a completly new idea - yes - it's AD&D two! The
Unfair tactics alert! TSR never claimed AD&D2 was a completely new
game - it was always presented as a revamping of AD&D. Criticizing
TSR because AD&D2 is still basically AD&D is attacking a strawman of
your own creation. There are many valid complaints that can be laid
at the feet of TSR, but this one is way, way off base.
>old rules were a bit wobbly but AD&D2 is the most obvious cash in ever
>produced: the OS/2 of role-playing games. It keeps all the things that
>made AD&D distinctive and changd nothing of any real consequence. Yes,
>it is massively different in detail and in organisation but
>fundamentally it is the same game re-issued for no good reason.
Sigh. I suppose to a TSR/AD&D hater there is no difference. As has
been pointed out in this newsgroup, however, to many of us who actually
play games based on AD&D (albeit pretty loosely based in some cases)
the differences are fundamental, not superficial. Yes, it's still
AD&D - it is a class-based system with use-and-forget magic. But in
the opinion of a good many players the first edition rules were more
than `a bit wobbly' - they were downright broken. And there were all
the excesses introduced in UA (which were a part of the game - Gygax
was still pontificating about `official' AD&D in TSR materials).
2nd edition fixed most of the fundamental flaws, and also cleaned up
many little problems. More importantly, TSR stopped promoting the
insane Gygax ego-trip of "AD&D my way or you're not playing AD&D",
and they made it possible to play with just one handbook for players
again (sound marketing - keep the entry price as low as possible).
The DM needs a new DM's guide, but even TSR suggested it was quite
possible to continue using the 1st edition monster manuals.
>AD&D2 has CASH IN written all over in in big pink letters eighteen
>feet high with a flashing neon arrow pointing to them.
Obviously I disagree. But even if this were true, why is this a
problem? Some of the posters in this newsgroup seem to feel that
gaming companies owe them something just because they buy products.
Not so. You are perfectly free to spend your money on TSR products,
or on products from a competing manufacturer, or *gasp* not to buy
gaming products at all if they don't measure up to your standards.
Nobody was forced to buy 2nd edition books to replace 1st edition;
there are many campaigns still running based on 1st edition rules.
What about all the optional class, race, and suchlike handbooks?
Note carefully the word `optional'. I like having a wealth of
supplementary background material to choose from. Some of it I do
buy; some of it I don't because it doesn't fit into my game world;
some of it I wouldn't touch with a twenty-foot pole. It's my choice.
Each of the many different pieces of TSR merchandise have their
advocates. I don't think much of the spell cards, but I know of
people who use them as a combination of a spell book and an aid to
show which spells their spell-casters have memorised. I dislike
the trading cards, but some GM's like them as a source of ready-
made NPCs. As far as I can see the only people who are hurt by
the vast amount of TSR material are compulsive collectors who
absolutely must have one of everything that TSR produces. Fine.
Let these people subsidise TSR, and occasionally a niche product
might turn up that I'm interested in buying. Admittedly I'm not
the mainstream market for TSR products (I'm probably three times
the target age, for a start) but from where I'm sitting TSR gives
me quite a lot of what I want for my gaming enjoyment.
--
John Francis jo...@apollo.hp.com
The world can be divided into two classes :-
those who divide people into two classes, and those who don't.
Axly
>THE ICING ON THE CAKE
>Here it is the brand new system from TSR, long awaited the game you've
>never played before, a completly new idea - yes - it's AD&D two! The
ADD 2nd edition isn't a whole new game, it's a paint job
and body work on a classic car. There is no reason new
players should have to continue to use a slighty messed
up system just because everyone else before them had to
deal with it. TSR fixed ADD as much as it can be fixed
with 2nd edition, and it's a fix that's been a long time
coming.
>Some other companies we should bite our thumbs at.
>R. Talsorian - The company with a first edition game that's a
> considerable improvement over its second edition.
Depends on which game you are talking about..
>FASA - for those sexploitation covers on the ShadowRun stuff.
Where? The original book has a woman in short and a halter. *shrug*
I think I'm adult enough that a breast doesn't scare me, and heck,
her breasts are covered up. I think you have to be pretty puritanical
to think that the SRun books have sexploitation covers.
>GDW - Traveller 2300, Dark Conspiracy and the pointless re-printing
> of Twilight 2000. Candidates for worst view of 'future history' ever.
Pointless reprinting? They revamped the system greatly with the 2nd edition.
Again, it's a game that has needed some fixes for some time now.
Axly
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
You can sleep easier now, I'm sure.
By the way, I must take exception to the comparison of AD&D to FORTRAN. I
have to program in FORTRAN all of the time, and it's much better than AD&D.
B^)
AD&D is the BASIC (or maybe even the COBOL) of RPGs.
-Doug Gibson
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.
This is a properly spelled version of the mimetic signature virus. Copy it
into your .signature file and join in the fun today!
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
choice here>'s Handbooks. Talk about a rip-off.
Axly
>Don't worry, TSR won't get the Middle Earth license. ICE already has it.
ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the auction block
soon.
I'm more worried about TSR getting something like HERO system. *nightmare
mode on*
Axly
FALL88
> Steve Jackson - GURPS cockroach (just kidding :-)
Actually, we had a running gag:
GURPS ameoba, where microbiology meets the real world!
-james
FALL88
> I'm more worried about TSR getting something like HERO system. *nightmare
> mode on*
I agree. TSR would ruin the Hero system for sure.
-james
Ninstar Cybermage - Back Again from the Mists!
I'm not sure I follow this. What could TSR do to the hero system? It's already
written, and in it's fourth edition. It's pretty much set. The only thing I
see happenning to HERO in TSR's hands is a huge number of supplements. And
I can deal with that. Some more Genre supplements, monster manuals, spellbook
or two. Who knows?
BUT...TSR is not well known for marketing stuff they didn't develop, so I don't
think it'll happen. What they might do is buy it and bury it. 8-(
James Shank # v131...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
AKA: Ninstar Cybermage # or sh...@acsu.buffalo.edu
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Carl E. Anderson
>do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu writes:
>
>>Don't worry, TSR won't get the Middle Earth license. ICE already has it.
>
>ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the auction block
>soon.
WHAT!! You must be joking! Please tell me you are joking! I
can't have ICE on the auction block - I liked their stuff!
Ach, doth the world crumble to ruin so swiftly?
Carl Anderson
can...@isr.harvard.edu
Arthur C. Adams
>>do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu writes:
>>ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the auction block
>>soon.
That's a surprise to me. They were at Atlanticon (4th of July weekend)
in force.
--
The world is not analog. The world is digital,
with an incredible number of bits.
Arthur C. Adams (not the comic-book artist) <fnord>
E-Mail aca...@afterlife.ncsc.mil
andrew.c.durston
Hurm, ICE didn't look too folded when they were at Atlanticon
over the JUly 4th weekend. They have several Rolemaster projects
on the horizon ( Time Riders, Alchemical Companion and Rolemaster
Companion VI ) for the fall and probably other things as well.
I would think that it is just a rumor ( since I would think it might
have been mention at the con even in passing or rumor ).
Where did the rumor come from?
Later,
ACDurston
..!att!hotld!acd
Axly
>>In article<BrGnB...@news.cso.uiuc.edu>dv5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes:
>> >ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the auction block
>> >soon.
> Hurm, ICE didn't look too folded when they were at Atlanticon
> over the JUly 4th weekend. They have several Rolemaster projects
> on the horizon ( Time Riders, Alchemical Companion and Rolemaster
> Companion VI ) for the fall and probably other things as well.
> I would think that it is just a rumor ( since I would think it might
> have been mention at the con even in passing or rumor ).
> Where did the rumor come from?
I heard it from a friend in a game company, that they were either folded
or were going to fold soon due to financial difficulties. Perhaps they have
managed to put together some sort of financial deal to stay afloat. We can
only hope.
Axly
Michael Elias Campbell
>In article <1992Jul16....@news.unomaha.edu>, PCH...@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88) writes...
>>dv5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes:
>>
>
until it's actually playable :)
================================================================================"I'd like to do that again, now that I know I can live through it!"
--Launchpad McQuack
================================================================================
Kelly Alexander
Only where a profit is involved.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly Scott Alexander ale...@research.cs.orst.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A student's worst fear...
make: Fatal Error: Don't know how to make target `top_ramen'
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl E. Anderson
Good. I thought I had seen a bunch of new stuff coming from them
that looked better than the last gasps of a spent company, but it was
worrysome rumor!
Companion VI? Getting a little out of control aren't they? Have
they been seized by the same spirit that makes TSR publish their
(admittedly, much worse) supplements? They should overhaul the system with
a _real_ new edition which incorporates much of the cool stuff from the
companions and makes the game easier to run in the process - they need some
streamlining!
Alchemical Companion sounds fun though ...
Carl
Paul Michael Wayner
|> >> >ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the
auction block
|> >> >soon.
|> > Hurm, ICE didn't look too folded when they were at Atlanticon
|> > over the JUly 4th weekend. They have several Rolemaster projects
|> > on the horizon ( Time Riders, Alchemical Companion and Rolemaster
|> > Companion VI ) for the fall and probably other things as well.
|> > I would think that it is just a rumor ( since I would think it
might
|> > have been mention at the con even in passing or rumor ).
I live in Charlottesville, home of ICE, and am aquainted with the ICE
management, staff, and former staff (I live with two former ICE workers
and Rob Bell is moving in soon), and so have some knowledge about their
status. They are in serious financial trouble, but have not gone under.
Their staff has been cut considerably and they aren't churning out
products like they used too. Hopefully they will pull out, although
things look pretty dicey for them. I am especially worried about the
future of HERO games.
Paul Wayner
m...@ecl.psu.edu
I hope I'm not dating myself in dinosaur time by saying this, but does anyone
remember Simulation Publishing Incorporated? I was at a con right after they
folded, and there was a guy selling buttons that said "SPI Died For Our Sins."
I hope ICE doesn't end up the same way...(although if they do, print up a lot
of buttons and hit the nearest con; those SPI buttons sold well).
-Mike Williams
-m...@ecl.psu.edu
a_co...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Maybe SJG will go for it. Who knows...
Of course, *I* didn't know that ICE went under...
Brandon Cope
William Wes Johnson
>
>>Don't worry, TSR won't get the Middle Earth license. ICE already has i
>
>ICE folded a few months ago. All their stuff is going on the auction blo
>soon.
>
> I'm more worried about TSR getting something like HERO system. *nightma
> mode on*
>
> Axly
>
AXLY if you were any more wrong the RPG gods would strike you down. (okay
I got that responce off my chest).
ICE is doing okay, and still in business. Monte Cook lives in my area of
the country and is in the same Role MAster group as I am and I am sure he
would have mentioned if ICE was going down the tubes. Matter a fact they
have a decent production schedual for the next 6 months or so.
-------------------------------------------------
William "Wes" "Arrrr" "Man Thats a Loud Shirt"
"Gener Fox" "Mr. Kamikazi" "Mr DNA" "Boojie Boy"
"Golden Earring" "Sentri Bastion" Johnson
-------------------------------------------------
De-evolution is a real thing - DEVO
Steven E Barnes
Let me remind people that ICE does *not* own Hero. ICE distributes
and publishes Hero material. If ICE dies, Hero will simply have
somebody else publish their stuff. The only financial impact
would be the loss of money that ICE still owes Hero.
-steve
William Wes Johnson
Darn I get emotional...ah well
Here is a quick list of all the stuff ICE is coming out with in the near
future (but hey its the gaming industry, so who know when I will REALLY
come out...;)
Time Riders (or some time travelling genre book)
Yet another big Shadow World boxed set
Role MAster Companion VI
An Oriental Genre book
Space Master book (a book version of the boxed set..)
Alchemists Companion
Channelers Companion (have not heard much on this...)
Mentalists Compaion (like the latter...)
Thats about all I can remember right now...a
If ICE does fold that will seriously bite. But the best way to avoid that
is to support the company by buying its product, especially if you like
the stuff they do. I think ICE puts out some pretty decent/darn fine
products that are worth the $$$, unlike TSR.
-------------------------------------------------
Wes "Gotta be the story of my life, right from the embryo start" Johnson
Paul Jackson
I'm confused. If ICE has folded then who is putting out the new HERO
material? I just bought (yesterday) a new Champions book (Guardians of the
North, I couldn't resist since I'm running a group of Canadian Supers). This
has to have been published in the last couple of weeks or so.
Carl E. Anderson
>I live in Charlottesville, home of ICE, and am aquainted with the ICE
>management, staff, and former staff (I live with two former ICE workers
>and Rob Bell is moving in soon), and so have some knowledge about their
>status. They are in serious financial trouble, but have not gone under.
>Their staff has been cut considerably and they aren't churning out
>products like they used too. Hopefully they will pull out, although
>things look pretty dicey for them. I am especially worried about the
>future of HERO games.
>
> Paul Wayner
I hope they do pull through! I recall back when I was still
college hunting I had dropped by ICE after checking out UVA. They were
really nice - sort of surprised that I had come by, but they showed me
around their place and showed me bits and pieces of their current projects
that they had. I've always been real impressed with their products and was
impressed with the people who made them. If I wasn't going to be an
academic somewhere, I'd love to work for a company like ICE.
They deserve to pull through.
Carl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson "Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
can...@isr.harvard.edu at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
ande...@husc.harvard.edu - Skarphedhinn Njalsson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
andrew.c.durston
> Companion VI? Getting a little out of control aren't they? Have
> they been seized by the same spirit that makes TSR publish their
> (admittedly, much worse) supplements? They should overhaul the system with
> a _real_ new edition which incorporates much of the cool stuff from the
> companions and makes the game easier to run in the process - they need some
> streamlining!
good shape and the only candidates for revision ( witness the new
edition covering only those three books ). All of the Companion material
is extra and mostly comes from outside sources. They probably take the
"best"/most consistent, format it and print it. Much like a more
expensive issue of Grey Worlds. I doubt that any of the material in the
Companions would ever appear in the Core Rules except for errata and
indexes. I've been wrong before though.
> Alchemical Companion sounds fun though ...
From what I've heard, it is very good, a lot better than Spell Users
Companion. Crossed fingers over here.
Waitin...
ACDurston, ...!att!hotld!acd
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
too, of course).... sniff!
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
license would revert to Elan Merchandising, who, if I remember right, are
pretty picky about who they let use the Middle-Earth name. I really doubt
they'd let T$R get their grubby hands on it.