Empire players have become soft, pathetic whiners
res...@my-deja.com
of cockiness, bravado, testosterone (even the ladies), aggression,
and a nearly sick affection for staring into CRT's all day and
night pounding away on the keys.
Joy came in the form of ruining months of an enemies' carefully
laid plans. Overrunning their islands in the wee hours of the night
while the hapless leader slept. Often this was accompanied by
significant amounts of alcohol leading to delirious, incoherent,
and rambling announcements proclaiming one's dominance over all
within his or her reach.
Wit, charisma, machismo and a certain amount of panache led to
reputations that held from game to game. Alliances were made
and maintained from game to game. Warring factions occurred.
Who didn't want to kill any and all members of the MIT coalition?
These battles constantly bled over into r.g.e. where the chest-
beating continued. Verbal assaults were common, expected, and
accepted. Affection for animals, objects, and foodstuffs was
noted in scathing commentary.
It seems that as the core players of the 80's matured something
special was lost. The swagger in the step has disappeared. It's
a kinder, gentler empire community where newbies are coached,
prepped, fluffed, cuddled, and fawned over. Suggestions of mass
marketing. Of commercialization. Of bringing the game to the
technocratic illiterate.
Oh but how the mighty have fallen.
To this I simply say this: Prepare.
Mr. Ed
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Patrick Loney
: In article <7ujmdq$j6d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <res...@my-deja.com> wrote:
: >while the hapless leader slept. Often this was accompanied by
: >significant amounts of alcohol leading to delirious, incoherent,
: Only for Mr. Ed :)
: More astute leaders realized early on that alcohol and redistribution
: of an ailing country's citizens via external means do not mix.
Some of us also learned the real secret. Those planes, and bars, and ships,
and guys with guns we were playing with were not real. Imagine that. They
were just bits in computer memory. I got depressingly drunk when I found
that out.
: >Wit, charisma, machismo and a certain amount of panache led to
: >reputations that held from game to game. Alliances were made
: >and maintained from game to game. Warring factions occurred.
: >Who didn't want to kill any and all members of the MIT coalition?
: Funny that. There's no coalitions these days, not in that sense.
: Back then, there was the MIT contingent, the GaTech contingent,
: the UBuffalo contingent...such groups don't seem apparent these days.
: However, there are still players we like to kick around. For example,
: Temekula :)
As a matter of fact, say, just for example, Geoff, Steve, and myself all
found ourselves in the same game. Before we even broke sanctuary, there
would be somebody making some anno trying to bait us with "Let's see if
one of the three of you actually has gonads large enough to attack one
of the other two instead of teaming up on the rest of us slobs". Interesting
how 20 or 30 players would already have given up when just a couple of
closely knit players show up in a game.
: >These battles constantly bled over into r.g.e. where the chest-
: >beating continued. Verbal assaults were common, expected, and
: >accepted. Affection for animals, objects, and foodstuffs was
: >noted in scathing commentary.
: Oh believe me, it still happens in games...very, very much so.
: Right Mark? Dick beating and chest waving should bring back some
: recent memories :)
Our resident wool inspector has a good point. There are not enough game
flavored posts or enough colorful "Fu$* You" posts. And since arrakis
has moved to Alaska and is drinking his required liter of jack danniels
per day (It's a state law, honest), we see even less color.
: >It seems that as the core players of the 80's matured something
: >special was lost. The swagger in the step has disappeared. It's
: >a kinder, gentler empire community where newbies are coached,
: >prepped, fluffed, cuddled, and fawned over. Suggestions of mass
: >marketing. Of commercialization. Of bringing the game to the
: >technocratic illiterate.
: Suggestions yes, but as you may have noted quite a few people
: posted in opposition to it, myself included.
Commercialize Empire? We give the server away. We give the clients away.
Signing up for games is free. Now some people think the way to get
more players into the game is to charge them for it. Did I miss something?
: >Oh but how the mighty have fallen.
: It's just a different set of players now. This is stepping
: perilously close to the greats of games past vs the current
: crop of head strong leaders. But, I'd be quite happy to put
: the likes of Ionica, Escher, Ice Barbarians, or Cathouse
: against say, Dorsai, Fodderland, Suboceana, and Mirkwood.
: It would be one hell of a war, and I would not bet either way.
So much of the success in Empire is the desire to be succesfull. The
desire to spend obscene amounts of time tapping away at the keys at 11:00
PM instead of wrinkling up the sheets with the spouse. And you wonder
why geeky college aged computer nerds play Empire!
: >To this I simply say this: Prepare.
: I already sold you all my sheep, you greedy bastard. What,
: you want my goats now too?
: -Geoff
You sold him all the female sheep. Throw a coin into the depths of his
depravity and you will never hear it hit bottom.
Pat
AKA Overlord, with server in testing
Escher
>Oh but how the mighty have fallen.
>
>To this I simply say this: Prepare.
>
We look forward to seeing you in the invitational.
>Mr. Ed
Escher
BTW - It is a BYOS (bring your own sheep) affair.
Escher
Cashman) wrote:
>It's just a different set of players now. This is stepping
>perilously close to the greats of games past vs the current
>crop of head strong leaders. But, I'd be quite happy to put
>the likes of Ionica, Escher, Ice Barbarians, or Cathouse
>against say, Dorsai, Fodderland, Suboceana, and Mirkwood.
>It would be one hell of a war, and I would not bet either way.
>-Geoff
Add one more to the list (Overlord) and lets look at a key difference.
How many of the greats of the past were college students?
What about now?
AFAIK, all the current crop have full time jobs. Many have
wives and kids.
Where's the difference?
Let's see, blow off class...
Get bad grades, retake a few classes...
Been there.
Blow off work, kids, wife...
Lose your job, possibly your wife, maybe your life...
Not going there.
:)
What happened to the college crowd?
1) Off playing Doom or whatever cool derivative fast twitch,
graphics intensive game may be hip?
2) About to become incredibly rich with an Internet IPO?
3) Preying on the old empire players daughters? Martha,
go get my lar. I'm going for a drive.
4) Playing a geeky strategy game that none of their friends
will think is cool and takes up way too much time?
For the most part, the college crowd is gone. They certainly
aren't the dominant players today. The current players
have a different style of play and posting.
OK. I've probably once again opened up the hashed/
rehashed debate of which were better. Who cares -
Post, beat your chest or whatever else you have handy.
Escher (1/2, at least)
BTW - Has anybody seen my walker?
Mikhail Sergeyvich Gorbachev
>As a matter of fact, say, just for example, Geoff, Steve, and myself all
>found ourselves in the same game. Before we even broke sanctuary, there
>would be somebody making some anno trying to bait us with "Let's see if
>one of the three of you actually has gonads large enough to attack one
>of the other two instead of teaming up on the rest of us slobs". Interesting
>how 20 or 30 players would already have given up when just a couple of
>closely knit players show up in a game.
Strategy to win a game ala Heatwave, requires three countries to
participate:
Country A attacks country X
Countries B & C gangpile on X
Country B attacks country Y
Countries A & C gangpile on Y
Country C attacks country Z
Countries A & B gangpile on Z
(countries X, Y and Z are 4 times smaller than A, B or C)
After you're down to countries A, B, C, countries A & B
decide they are "winners". Country C says, fuck this
I am not going to fight anyone, you win.
If that's what you old-timers call a game, you can fucking
keep your game.
And before the Alaskan wonderstooge starts commenting on someone
whining and bitching, let me just state for the record that
I'm not whining and bitching about losing the game or being
gangpiled on by the Three Stooges. I've lost games before
and I've been gangpiled on before.
I'm bitching and whining about participating in the most boring
Empire game in my lifetime and spending my very limited free time
on something as lame as that. Hmm, actually that's not quite accrurate.
There was this game, which kept on crashing every update after the
first. That was more boring than Heatwave.
There was no endgame, there was no fighting in that game (after
the low-tech battles). It was just a complete waste of time.
M.S. Gorbachev
The Head of State
Steve McClure
from a sheep shagger. Good, good.
Too bad none of the rest of the Alzheimers Club of the 80's can even
remember what r.g.e is, much less even consider coming out and getting
their collective asses kicked. :) :) Of course, if they could
remember, the excuses would be, "Well, the code has changed, it's too
hard, too much to do, yadda, yadda, yadda."
That, and I haven't seen the "But, where have all the cool bugs gone?
I need more bars, and 'grind -1' doesn't work anymore, so how can I be
expected to do well? I mean, there must be bugs in the code, so if I
know of any, I must use them, since everyone else is just as gutless
as me and must use them too to pump up my ego." crowd either. Hmm...
-- Steve
a.k.a. Ionica
Escher
p116711+imnotreall...@cc.tut.fi (Mikhail Sergeyvich
Gorbachev) wrote:
>If that's what you old-timers call a game, you can fucking
>keep your game.
>There was no endgame, there was no fighting in that game (after
>the low-tech battles). It was just a complete waste of time.
This is the second game in a row where at least part of CCCP has been
very unhappy with the result.
In both games, Escher was part of the win. I guess I'm just a little
bit dense, because I still don't quite get what it is that we are
doing wrong. We would be happy to receive lessons from an experience
old-timer like CCCP on how to become a better Empire player and
correct our mistakes.
All I ask is that you give specific details of the things Escher did
wrong and recommendations on how to improve them, so that we can learn
without getting too confused. And please be patient with us - we don't
have all the experience you may have, so we may have to ask questions
and get you to clarify things. Since Heatwave was the most recent
game, and all of CCCP was in it, why don't you use it as the object
lesson.
>M.S. Gorbachev
>The Head of State
Thanks in advance for the help,
Ken (1/2 of Escher)
Tero Paananen
Forget it.
-TPP - what we have here is a failure to communicate
Mikhail Sergeyvich Gorbachev
>Forget it.
On second thought, let me try ONE more time and then I'll shut up.
You obviously misunderstood what I was trying to say. I have all
the confidence you will misunderstand me again, but that's fine,
maybe someone else will.
The last rant had nothing to do with the skill level of any particular
player, obviously the winning players are at least somewhat skilled
because they appear to be able to come in top of quite a few games
as of late. I'm, however, amazed that you seem to pride yourself
in that kind of a "win" (yes, CCCP has been known to win games
that way too, what can I say, I was younger).
The rant had more to do with the undeniable fact that Heatwave
ended with a fizzle, not a bang. You three refused to fight,
instead you spent the ENTIRE game eating up smaller fish and
you ate them together. Whenever one of you attacked someone the
other two gangpiled very soon after.
There were two opposing factions in the game (or should I say one and a
half, since you three cooperated on and off). The two factions never
fought each other, because you didn't want to. You had ample
opportunities.
As to why, I have my ideas, but since winners are always right, I guess
you will just disregard my opinion and post something like: "shut up loser"
or something sarcastic to make you look oh so witty.
But, I'm just going to give my opinion anyway and let you guys think
of it how you please, I don't much care.
I have three opinions:
(and before you dickweeds - enough waving, everyone? - attack me
for that, let me repeat, they are OPINIONS, yours may be different)
1. The players who end up winning most of the games these days are far
too much concerned in winning, not playing. If they could win the
game before the 1st upd, they would. You're afraid to lose for
whatever reason. I got news to you, a good losing game is much,
much more satisfying than a win. There is something very, very satisfying
in kicking the big bad bully in the balls and telexing him insults
after every move (Hi Springa...your "do you know who I am" was
very funny). It's a game, you can join another one, if you lose
this one.
2. The players who end up winning most of the games these days are
too busy, too lazy or otherwise unwilling to commit the amount
of time it takes to REALLY win a game. I define really winning a
game by totally destroying every living man, woman, child and sheep
your enemy has. Mirkwood would never had had that ("I declare
<countrynameIforgot> a no-fly zone", remember that?)
3. Some game setups eventually always seem to lead to the kind of
"endgame" witnessed in Heatwave. Deities need to be more clued
in about the effects of their setup choices to the gameplay.
I had a forth one, but I forgot, cause I'm an old fart.
M.S. Gorbachev - no, I'm not really TT in drag, you're forgiven
The Head of State to think so though, this once!
Elwe
>
> Once upon a time empire players were a special breed. Full
> of cockiness, bravado, testosterone (even the ladies), aggression,
> and a nearly sick affection for staring into CRT's all day and
> night pounding away on the keys.
Ahh, the joys of youth.
>
> Joy came in the form of ruining months of an enemies' carefully
> laid plans. Overrunning their islands in the wee hours of the night
> while the hapless leader slept. Often this was accompanied by
> significant amounts of alcohol leading to delirious, incoherent,
> and rambling announcements proclaiming one's dominance over all
> within his or her reach.
They still ramble, it just takes a few more brews.
>
> Wit, charisma, machismo and a certain amount of panache led to
> reputations that held from game to game. Alliances were made
> and maintained from game to game. Warring factions occurred.
> Who didn't want to kill any and all members of the MIT coalition?
What MIT coalition?
>
> These battles constantly bled over into r.g.e. where the chest-
> beating continued. Verbal assaults were common, expected, and
> accepted. Affection for animals, objects, and foodstuffs was
> noted in scathing commentary.
Dammit, stop playing with your sheep and get to the point.
>
> It seems that as the core players of the 80's matured something
> special was lost. The swagger in the step has disappeared. It's
> a kinder, gentler empire community where newbies are coached,
> prepped, fluffed, cuddled, and fawned over. Suggestions of mass
> marketing. Of commercialization. Of bringing the game to the
> technocratic illiterate.
Little do you know young grasshoppa. They may be coached, prepped,
fluffed, cuddled and fawned over, but that just makes them nice and
juicy when they do get munched.
>
> Oh but how the mighty have fallen.
We have not fallen .. Well, maybe a little, but not far.
>
> To this I simply say this: Prepare.
>
> Mr. Ed
>
And further more, Who let this fool out of his cage?
Lord Corwin
--
The Enchanted Rock - telnet austin1.com 5555
DICTATOR desires employment, perferably permanent, in similar capacity.
Will accept opportunity to establish own circumstances. Six years
experience. Last position terminated at request of populace.
Blind Box 5 Amber News Services.
CONGRESS.SYS Corrupted: Re-Boot WASHINGTON D.C. (Y/n) ?
Elwe
-- All previous mis-information deleted
>
> And before the Alaskan wonderstooge starts commenting on someone
> The Head of State
Which Alaskan wonderstooge are you refering too?
That drunk in Anchorage or the shober slob in Nikiski?
If it's the one that played in Heatwave, then that would
be me. And personally, I thought it was a good game.
So take what's left of your sheep and leave quietly
or the next gang bang will make the last one look like a
one on one.
Elwe
>
> Ahh, spoken with the true, chest-beating style we should expect to see
> from a sheep shagger. Good, good.
> a.k.a. Ionica
Dammit, they're crawling out of the muck and mud of the past.
Get back where you belong, your too old to play here anymore.
Thus sayeth the ......
Ummm, who am I anyway?
Elwe
> BTW - Has anybody seen my walker?
Yep, I done saw that commie over der steal it wit
me one two eyes. He said something about melting
it down and making a shell with it.
Tom Moore
troubles too... there was more then one game filled with extremely lame
announcements, several that were effectively over before they began
because of alliances.. and a few with lame weak dieties that declared an
end to the game before they should have. (The one that comes to mind is
where a extrememely large country was declared the winner... even though
a few of us out tech'd him.... the game had been fairly lame anyways, so
on the last update I spelled out "The End" on his island with pinpoint
nuke strikes.... Anyone remember that game?)
Hey.. get out of those fields... those are Clinton's sheep!
Tom
--
Definition of Loop: See Definition of Loop
Tero Paananen
>Escher wrote:
>> BTW - Has anybody seen my walker?
>Yep, I done saw that commie over der steal it wit
>me one two eyes. He said something about melting
>it down and making a shell with it.
Listen stooge,
Why don't you take Escher's dick out of your hole - which one,
you choose - before opening it in public. The stink is getting
a bit strong.
-TPP
Jason Duelge
Geoff Cashman wrote in message <7ul247$26$1...@sherrill.kiva.net>...
>One game, South Pacific II, featured two very strong alliances. One of them
>was noticeably stronger than the other. The weaker one made many attempts
>to woo a country who was thought to be fence sitting over to their side.
>They did this *long* in advance of the end game.
>
I think I might have been in that game ... if I remember correctly, there
were
three guys (Springa, Bora-Bora and ???) who were friends of some form,
allied.
Then me ... I wasn't really playing ... never built a boat to get free land,
started
late on tech ... my typical 'too busy for empire' style ... but then I saw
some guy
with an attack fleet off my coast ... so I build a bunch of crap, he goes
broke, and
I sail over and take his land.
I take a bit more land. Then the guy I listed as ??? above talks me into
attacking
Metallica. Says I'll be part of the alliance. Sure, what the hell ... I'll
throw
my 50 sectors or so against Metallica's 250.
Funny thing was I gutted him. Something about planes and taking airbases,
planes
and taking airbases.
Even remember getting some gomer named Coke real mad. He mad all kinds of
nasty
annos about how he would kill me, etc.
Then he and his side quit.
Game over, my side won. Yay.
The best part was not having to try hard at the beginning, but still
managing to sock
it to someone.
I've felt badly ever since, though, as Metallica is one cool dude. :)
Jason - Temekula
(sorry, I don't have the temperament or interest in starting any
chest-beating type
flame war. I've gotten too old for that.)
>That point is critical. If you are unwilling to think in the strategic
sense,
>then you are doomed to be a victim of other countries who do. In this case,
>both alliances realized the situation, attempted to either secure it or
change
>it, and when it was secured, both realized the futility of the game
continuing.
>The game finished with a large number of viable countries, seemingly long
before
>the game should have been completed.
>
Oh, if you were thinking you would *ever* get ??? to switch sides, you were
deceived ...
he was a coworker/friend of the other two. You would have had better luck
getting me
to switch sides.
Tero Paananen
>In article <7ulabm$qvu$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>,
>Woo. Someone sure burned TPP's butt today. He's on a roll...
I've got a headache, a deadline tomorrow (morning) and I hate you
all.
How's that? :)
-TPP
Escher
>I've got a headache, a deadline tomorrow (morning) and I hate you
>all.
>
>How's that? :)
>
> -TPP
More than we wanted to know.
Hmmm....
Last time someone was this charming to me, they used the term PMS.
Escher
Elwe
>
> Listen stooge,
>
> Why don't you take Escher's dick out of your hole - which one,
> you choose - before opening it in public. The stink is getting
> a bit strong.
>
> -TPP
Me thinks we hit a nerve?
--
The Enchanted Rock - telnet llano.austin1.com 5555
DICTATOR desires employment, perferably permanent, in similar capacity.
Will accept opportunity to establish own circumstances. Six years
experience. Last position terminated at the request of the populace.
Reply to : Blind Box 5 Amber News Services.
Tero Paananen
>Tero Paananen wrote:
>>
>> Listen stooge,
>>
>> Why don't you take Escher's dick out of your hole - which one,
>> you choose - before opening it in public. The stink is getting
>> a bit strong.
>>
>> -TPP
>Me thinks we hit a nerve?
You obviously don't know me.
-TPP - curiously the stooges choose to comment on the mudslinging
and not on the issue, not that I'm surprised
Escher
organized fashion so that Escher could learn from and/or respond to
them. I thought I might learn what it was going to take to become one
of the great Empire players that he has taken pains to point out none
of the current players are. Since he declined, I'll just focus on what
he hath spewed so far.
Escher
> On 20 Oct 1999 16:52:20 GMT,
> p116711+imnotreall...@cc.tut.fi (Mikhail Sergeyvich >
> Gorbachev) wrote:
>Strategy to win a game ala Heatwave, requires three countries to
>participate:
>
>Country A attacks country X
>Countries B & C gangpile on X
>Country B attacks country Y
>Countries A & C gangpile on Y
>Country C attacks country Z
>Countries A & B gangpile on Z
>(countries X, Y and Z are 4 times smaller than A, B or C)
>
>After you're down to countries A, B, C, countries A & B
>decide they are "winners". Country C says, fuck this
>I am not going to fight anyone, you win.
OK. Lets fill in a few names here.
Given that he is referencing Heatwave, countries A,B, and C
would be Escher, phodder (Overlord/Amber), and Pender
(Pendor/Doorbell) in no particular order. His example clearly
indicates these three countries dogpiled at least 3 other countries
during the game. These would be countries X,Y, and Z.
As I'm most familiar with Escher's actions (being one of the
co-rulers), let's review them.
1) Escher's first attack was upon a Southern neighbor, Florin.
Florin had little territory other than his 40 sector home island.
As a result of this attack, all 40 sectors of Florin's home island
became a protectorate of Escher. Rook grabbed some offshore
territory on his own initiative. phodder and Pendor did not
participate in this action.
2) Escher's Northern neighbor, Pacificus, decided to consolidate
his position by taking sectors owned by Escher and Pendor on
a key island lying directly between Escher and Pacificus' home
island. His initial attack had limited success, as Escher had just
bridged to the island and was thereby able to respond. At the time,
Pacificus was allied with Council and had helped Council
repel an attack by CCCP ( of which MS Gorby is part ). Upon
missing an update due to RL circumstances, Pacificus was
removed from the contested island by Escher and the bottom two
rows of his country were used for firing practice. During this time,
CCCP contested Pacificus for some Northern islands. Pacificus
was game and provided goodhearted banter both before and after
his home island and some outlying islands came under the
guidance of Escher administrators. During this conflict, Pendor's
participation consisted of lobbing a few shells at some of the
sectors Pacificus took from him one update. phodder was nowhere
near the area. One could argue that CCCP/Escher dogpiled Pacificus,
but that's not really true. Pacificus attacked both of us and paid for
it. Escher collected the lions share in their response.
3) During the Escher/Pacificus fracas, Musphelheim and
CCCP were tag teaming Council. Council, with the help
of Pacificus, had repelled an early invasion attempt by
CCCP, but wrecked his economy in the process. Escher,
having a spare heavy cruiser available, offered some
limited assistance in the form of a distraction at the invasion
update. CCCP accepted said offer. Resistance was much
lighter than anticipated and Escher somehow ended up in
possession of Council's bank and sacked the capital.
We established an agreement with CCCP, whereby Escher
kept 10 sectors on Council's island. I believe CCCP
controlled most, or all the the other 30. We also agreed
to share the bank - though we later left it in the hands of
CCCP as his cash flow got squeezed. During this battle,
Pendor and phodder were absent. One could make a
reasonable argument that CCCP, Musphelheim, and
Escher dogpiled Council.
4) Escher next turned it's attention to the South.
Escher invaded Rook and took control of both
his home island and most of his outlying islands.
We also had to expel Hades, who took advantage
of our attack to get the upper edge in a game long
feud between he and Rook. The most annoying
part was the che we had to deal with in some of the
disputed sectors. Neither Pendor or phodder participated
in this combat.
5) Escher's final invasion was of Holsation. This action,
once again, was solo and did not involve the participation
of Pendor or phodder.
Gorby,
Feel free to dispute any of this you feel is false,
but back it up with facts, not innuendo. And don't be shy,
you can use names and dates instead of A,B,C, X, Y, Z.
We both already know the alphabet. And we both know
that what I've laid out above is the truth.
Based upon what I've laid out, you are full of sh*t. Your
scenario didn't exist anywhere but in your own head.
Escher didn't attack a single country in conjunction with
Pendor or phodder. In fact, you (CCCP) were the country
we worked most closely with.
I'll respond to some of your other comments in another post.
Escher
JAS
>>>
>-TPP - curiously the stooges choose to comment on the mudslinging
> and not on the issue, not that I'm surprised
And what was the issue again ?
JAS
>The rant had more to do with the undeniable fact that Heatwave
>ended with a fizzle, not a bang.
Actually, it ended with quite a bang. Escher built nukes. Escher built
nukes 4 fucking turns
before anyone else. Thats like two GM's playing chess, and one of them
being up a rook.
Only the nitwit in the peanut gallary says "why did he quit, the other guy
hasn't mated him yet"
You three refused to fight,
>instead you spent the ENTIRE game eating up smaller fish and
>you ate them together. Whenever one of you attacked someone the
>other two gangpiled very soon after.
You must have been playing in a different Heatwave. Escher did NOT attack
anyone with either Pendor,
or Overlord. Those we choose as prey, we choose and devoured ALONE.
Pendor may have been
hostile with Pacificus, but Escher fought him.
In fact, the only one Escher gangbanged on with another "big fish" was
Council -- and that was when I
was helping You !
(So dunk that in your vodka and snort it)
>There were two opposing factions in the game (or should I say one and a
>half, since you three cooperated on and off). The two factions never
>fought each other, because you didn't want to. You had ample
>opportunities.
Pendor and I co-operated through the game by sharing intel and non-hostile
borders. It wasn't that we
didn't want to fight, its that it never made good stratigic sense to fight.
Phodder was a possible
target up until the end. He was a target in the end. If he had held out
agreeing to the victory for a few more
hours, we would have fought. But the game had already been decided.
>
>1. The players who end up winning most of the games these days are far
> too much concerned in winning, not playing. If they could win the
> game before the 1st upd, they would. You're afraid to lose for
> whatever reason. I got news to you, a good losing game is much,
> much more satisfying than a win.
As you said, this is your opinion. I respectively disagree.
To paraphrase Sun Tzu - to win a 1000 victories in a 1000 battle is not
the acme of skill. To defeat your opponent before the battle is joined, so
that
he surrenders without battle is the acme of skill. But throughout history,
generals who achieve this are not remembered, because there is no glorious
battle to point to on the route to victory.
I was very, very satisfyied with our victory in Heatwave. Holding on two
more
turns and nuking everyone to oblivion would not have increased that
satisfaction.
>2. The players who end up winning most of the games these days are
> too busy, too lazy or otherwise unwilling to commit the amount
> of time it takes to REALLY win a game. I define really winning a
> game by totally destroying every living man, woman, child and sheep
> your enemy has.
I can see where you would enjoy that. I wouldn't. To me, the flavor is
in
defeating your opponent, not the meaningless smashing of his virtual toys.
Once he's defeated, beating him up is just a meaningless waste of time.
After all, their just sandcastles. Again, a difference of opinion.
Final comment. Everybody seems to keep bitching about how they want to
see the two big guys fight in the end. If this describes you (and you know
who
you are) Instead of sitting on the sidelines and moaning, my suggestion is
put your own fucking time into the game, became one of the big players,
and fucking do it yourself !!! Nuff Said.
The other half of Escher.
Akorps
If this is the game I'm thinking, where
we each had a single mountain that
made gold, but Pat forgot about the
mil-packing trick :-), and we had these
little diety islands we had to storm by
shell-absorbing fleet sacrificing tactics,
that was a pretty good game. The reason
the game ended was mainly that Pat
got tired of it, and the players were pretty
much exhausted from the stress of
months of massive fleet combats based
on the massive amounts of gold we
squeezed out of the mountains. The guy
I was fighting (started with a P I think)
was pretty good, and we had as our basic
tactical unit a fully loaded aircraft carrier
with 50 jet planes on board (these were
like the "white chips" we had to ante up
at the start of a battle, just to sit at the
table :-) Anything less was basically small
change, which shows how massive the
attacks were.
Since tech was fixed at around 150, noone
could finish the game by nukes, so there
weren't any clear winners. I don't think Pat
to this day understands how intense that
game was, or that there was no win at
sight at all when the game ended.
Whatever happened to CatHouse? Haven't
seen him around since then.
Also, I had Metzada as a co-ruler, and I'm
afraid the strain I was under made me
rather difficult to endure :-) How is Metz
doing? Last I heard the army was sending
him off to obliterate Timbuktoo or something.
"despite its internal rottenness, the Byzantine Empire endured a thousand
years, due to a stable military organization made possible by the codification
of the art of war in the manuals 'Strategicon' and 'Tactica'"
-JFC Fuller (Armament and History)
Escher
>The rant had more to do with the undeniable fact that Heatwave
>ended with a fizzle, not a bang. You three refused to fight,
>instead you spent the ENTIRE game eating up smaller fish and
>you ate them together. Whenever one of you attacked someone the
>other two gangpiled very soon after.
Regarding this supposed gangpile, see my previous post. As I laid out
in detail, it just didn't happen. Escher *never* dogpiled another
country with the help of either Pendor OR phodder.
Country Tech
Escher 269.78
Pendor 235.45
phodder 230.39
CCCP 232.62
Ok, now let's lay out the endgame in simple terms. Escher had a 39
point tech lead on phodder and declared an end to the non-aggression
agreements they had with both phodder and CCCP timed such that combat
would commence on the same update we got nukes.
We had tons of cash, owned over 500 sectors and were well prepared to
handle conventional attack. We declared an Escher/Pendor victory that
would have not have been that difficult to prove. There was no refusal
to fight phodder - only a decision to pick the time and place most
advantageous to us.
While Pat and James may be great fighters, the deck was loaded against
them. You have played long enough that you should be able to figure
out what kind of advantage 30-50 nukes per update would give a side.
phodder conceded victory against overwhelming odds.
You were getting your @ss kicked conventionally, *despite* a $100K
loan we gave you. You contested the victory, got your tail whipped for
another night and folded.
>You obviously misunderstood what I was trying to say. I have all
>the confidence you will misunderstand me again, but that's fine,
>maybe someone else will.
I'm sure you will have another way to twist this around, given that
you have indicated I'm incapable of seeing things your way. You're
right about that one - I just don't see it your way.
I'll address what I *think* is your main point in one more post.
Escher
Escher
rest of the ground I was going to, so I'll wrap this up quickly.
One of the Desert Storm commanders recently wrote a book from which I
will paraphrase:
"When you are playing football, everybody cheers when you have a
42 to 39 victory. When it's war, you want to kick your opponents
butt 100 to zip."
That's how Escher plays Empire. We have a blast wheeling and
dealing - both of us are old Diplomacy players. We try to maximize
the countries economic resources and we try to use that to
kick butt! Sometimes, it even works...
Tero seems to long for the "good old days", when players
fought titantic battles of evil vs. even more evil. He longs for epic
combat lasting for an eternity. It's ironic that he also posts
how disappointed he is that he wasted his *limited* time on
games that don't have this.
You figure it out...
Escher
Gregory E. Garland
Escher wrote:
>
> We had tons of cash, owned over 500 sectors and were well prepared to
> handle conventional attack. We declared an Escher/Pendor victory that
> would have not have been that difficult to prove. There was no refusal
> to fight phodder - only a decision to pick the time and place most
> advantageous to us.
>
> While Pat and James may be great fighters, the deck was loaded against
> them. You have played long enough that you should be able to figure
> out what kind of advantage 30-50 nukes per update would give a side.
>
> phodder conceded victory against overwhelming odds.
>
don't really want to get into this little cat fight but your story
doesn't
wash. all three of you actively worked to insure that noone could arise
to challenge the position of the top three countries. if it was really
you and Pendor against phodder then Overlord/Amber certainly know
enough to recruit allies rather than drive them down. the simple fact
is that several weeks before the 'official' end of the game you three
decided you weren't going to fight each other, and at that point the
game was over. instead of calling the game there and then you chose to
waste several weeks time of the rest of the players's lives while you
amused yourselves by taking out the other countries. there's nothing
particularly wrong with that...after all it is a game to be played
for personal enjoyment...but you could at least be honest about how
the game actually played out.
btw, i thought Schytia's game setup was actually quite good, the only
problem was that there was only ~30 countries instead of about
50-60. that way there would have been about 6-10 viable countries
left at the stage where the point became moot rather than 3...that would
have helped prevent such 'agreements' from taking place.
Akorps
There's no incentive to find 'em anymore.
If you find one these days, you have to
report them to Overlord or get fried. Don't
get to use them on your best enemy to
get revenge.
Grumble. Whatever happened to the
explore bug? I never used it much, just
for fun a few times.
In the old days, we used to know the right
way to cheat (use it, but don't abuse it).
These days, noone treats a bug with the
respect it deserves!!!
Akorps
amount of time it takes to REALLY win a game. I define really winning a game by
totally destroying every living man, woman, child and sheep your enemy has.
Yeah, well Mirkwood had two-corulers.
Every time I made a move or started a
probing attack one of them would send me
a telegram "Hi. Did you really mean to do
that?"
Me: "Oh hi. Just out exploring. Is that you
down there?"
No fun. You can't launch a surprise 3am
attack on a country like that.
Now, CCCP, that was a different story. At
least there would be an hour here or there
where none of the 3 was on. That was
more fair. At least you could get the attack
started before someone logged in. And if
you were lucky the Hellzbollahs would
make a simultaneous real-world attack to
distract them :-)
Us poor single-player countries have to
set up our defenses so they can hold out
12 hours unassisted, while we sleep (or
celebrate Oktoberfest :-)
Thank God for Resvon! Mr. Ed upheld the
honor of the Korps by beating Mirkwood
in the great nuclear slugfest that proved
that us lazy folk have something to say
about this game also.
Tero Paananen
>Well, I offered Gorby the opportunity to lay out his points in an
>organized fashion so that Escher could learn from and/or respond to
>them. I thought I might learn what it was going to take to become one
>of the great Empire players that he has taken pains to point out none
>of the current players are. Since he declined, I'll just focus on what
>he hath spewed so far.
Witty again?
-TPP
Steve McClure
[snip]
>I was very, very satisfyied with our victory in Heatwave. Holding on two
>more
>turns and nuking everyone to oblivion would not have increased that
>satisfaction.
For you, maybe not, but I beg to differ here. I always prefer to turn
everything to glass if possible. *much* more satisfying satellite
photos that way. :)
-- Steve
a.k.a. Ionica
Steve McClure
[snip]
>don't really want to get into this little cat fight but your story
>doesn't
>wash. all three of you actively worked to insure that noone could arise
>to challenge the position of the top three countries.
Hmm, sounds like we need an Empire Anti-trust Command. This definitely
falls into the realm of collusion. :)
-- Steve
a.k.a. Ionica
Patrick Loney
: Escher wrote:
: >
: > While Pat and James may be great fighters, the deck was loaded against
: > them. You have played long enough that you should be able to figure
: > out what kind of advantage 30-50 nukes per update would give a side.
: >
: > phodder conceded victory against overwhelming odds.
: >
: don't really want to get into this little cat fight but your story
: doesn't
: wash. all three of you actively worked to insure that noone could arise
: to challenge the position of the top three countries. if it was really
: you and Pendor against phodder then Overlord/Amber certainly know
: enough to recruit allies rather than drive them down. the simple fact
: is that several weeks before the 'official' end of the game you three
: decided you weren't going to fight each other, and at that point the
: game was over. instead of calling the game there and then you chose to
: waste several weeks time of the rest of the players's lives while you
: amused yourselves by taking out the other countries. there's nothing
: particularly wrong with that...after all it is a game to be played
: for personal enjoyment...but you could at least be honest about how
: the game actually played out.
To be honest, the game was over Labor Day weekend. I was gone from
Thrusday till Tuesday and James only had very limited acess part of
the time. By Tuesday, Escher has a population advantage of 210k to
our 120K despite us have more sectors. He had spent the weekend
building cities and we had not due to time. Oh yeah, almost all of
his civ's were native Escher folk. A lot of ours were occupied
stooges that only pay 1/4 the tax rate. In short, Escher probably had
twice the income we did, and they never wasted a cent of it.
James and I probably could have wheeled and dealed our way into the
victory circle. But we've gotten to drink the champaign and kiss the
large hootered blonde enough times.
The attack on beep was to fulfill an earlier agreement with Savoia.
beep was beaten after the 1st wave of fighters. Took us another whole
week just to occupy his sectors. True to Greg's style though, he
went down swinging. Near the end of the game Pendor took a couple of
beep's islands. I could have raised a stink, but like beep said,
the game was over by then.
Pat
AKA Overlord
Tero Paananen
>In article <7ule7a$89m$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>,
>Tero Paananen <p11...@cc.tut.fi> wrote:
>>
>>I've got a headache, a deadline tomorrow (morning) and I hate you
>>all.
>>
>>How's that? :)
>Pale imitation of Tedrick at his most pissed. Keep at it, young
>grasshopper :)
You're a meanie :(
Damn (intellectual) dwarven.
-TPP
Elwe
I think the issue was mudslinging .. But then being a "stooge"
how would I know... Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck
Elwe
> For you, maybe not, but I beg to differ here. I always prefer to turn
> everything to glass if possible. *much* more satisfying satellite
>
> -- Steve
> a.k.a. Ionica
GET BACK! Get back into your hole. No one invited you into this
coversation. :)
Personally, my comments on the game are such that ..
1) It was a good game, I learned a lot from being Overlords co-ruler.
2) By the time CCCP was taken out, Overlord had commented to me,
that the game would last much longer, as Escher has us beat in tech
by a good 4 or 5 updates. That's way too long to reply when he had
nukes.
3) Piss off ... YOU LOST! Get over it. I've lost more games than I
care
to count. But I've always learned from them and went on to play
again.
Lord Corwin of Amber
Tero Paananen
> 3) Piss off ... YOU LOST! Get over it. I've lost more games than I
>care
> to count. But I've always learned from them and went on to play
>again.
Hahhahha,
The wonderstooge comes through again.
*sigh*
-TPP
Akorps
Trivia question: which one of the three?
Larry, Curly, Moe, or Shemp?
Bo Abrahamsson
> The rant had more to do with the undeniable fact that Heatwave
> ended with a fizzle, not a bang. You three refused to fight,
> instead you spent the ENTIRE game eating up smaller fish and
> you ate them together. Whenever one of you attacked someone the
> other two gangpiled very soon after.
Thats not exactly how I remember the game. I supported Escher with afew
forts when he attacked Pacificus, otherwise we only shared intelligence.
When phodder started to help Savoia attacking beep, Pendor joined in to
get a share of beep-land, call that gangpile if you want. After beep was
done
Pendor killed Savoia, didn't exactly help phodder.
The game was actually over here, but we decided to wait with the
declaration
until Escher had the nukes ready. If phodder hadn't accepted our
victory, Escher
would have launched at least 50 nukes!
> 3. Some game setups eventually always seem to lead to the kind of
> "endgame" witnessed in Heatwave. Deities need to be more clued
> in about the effects of their setup choices to the gameplay.
I think Heatwave was a great game!What was wrong with the setup ?
Bo
AKA Pendor
Tom Moore
Akorps wrote:
> > being a "stooge" how would I know... Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck
>
> Trivia question: which one of the three?
>
> Larry, Curly, Moe, or Shemp?
>
Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck was Curly's trade mark laugh.
Don't forget Joe and Curly Joe as well... there were *6* people that made up the 3
Stooges team at one point or another. (The Ted Healy and his Stooges act doesn't
count, nor do the New Three Stooges)
Moe Howard, Curly Howard, Shemp Howard were brothers. The other 3 were Larry
Fine, Joe Besser, and Curly Joe DeRita.
The original 1934 team (which is the most famous matchup) to make the 3 Stooges
short films was Larry, Curly, and Moe. Shemp replaced Curly after Curly suffered
a stroke. Shemp died in 1956 and was replaced with Joe Besser. In 1958, Joe
Besser left the 3 Stooges act, and Curly Joe DeRita replaced him. This final trio
made 6 films and numerous live appearences. In 1970, Larry suffered a stroke
which left him partially paralyzed. There was talk of replacing him with a 7th
partner, but it never happened, and the three stooges act was retired after a run
spanning 36 years.
Curly Joe did go on to form a "New Three Stooges" team, but his age made it
difficult to to the slapstick anymore, and the new team did few appearences.
Ok, so I happen to be a fan of the comedic trio.
Tom
--
Definition of Loop: See Definition of Loop
Mark Delgado
it makes it sound like we're just out of shape and that we *could*
be just as dangerous, but we're too lazy to be dangerous
(not that I'm ever dangerous, unless provoked :)
but for a lot of people, reality has taken hold of their lives
hell, i don't even know what happened to the old GT contingent
I can play some, now that I'm a adjunct faculty (a nice way of saying
"we'll hire you, but we won't give you a perm. position")
but even now, I don't have as much time to devote to the
MICRO management needed to get all the aspects of the game work
I'd rather do other things at times, but that's just me
being soft
we'll just have to see how the invitational goes :)
Mark
BTW: Jason, you folks BEAT me like a drum in that game :)
--
Mark Delgado - "Taste your blood as it trickles through the air"
AIT - Kevlar -
Woufb - GM -
Empire - TheDeathAngel of Metallica --- irc - BloodStar
Mark Delgado
: Sorry to burst your bubble
:peoples, but the old days had their share
:of
: troubles too... there was more then one game filled with extremely lame
: announcements, several that were effectively over before they began
: because of alliances.. and a few with lame weak dieties that declared an
: end to the game before they should have. (The one that comes to mind is
: where a extrememely large country was declared the winner... even though
: a few of us out tech'd him.... the game had been fairly lame anyways, so
: on the last update I spelled out "The End" on his island with pinpoint
: nuke strikes.... Anyone remember that game?)
thoughts on the old versus the new
change for the good: The server is MUCH more stable
change for the bad: players are much pickier about the games
they're willing to play
change for the BAD: playes seem to expect a fair playing field
and there is n desire to fight from an adverse position anmore
instead, it's 30 sector munches, taking out one start island at a
time.
food for thought, if a newly broken country or unbroken country
is obviously not being logged into
why not just delete it
it would slow down those lawnmowers and obviously make the
game more fair (minor sarcasm)
finally
it's unrelated, but, I don't care, it's 6amand I haven't gone to
bed (do you think I'm going to fucking spell check this sucker, even
though I damn well know it needs it? :)
for the love of dog, why in the hell are units still a part of the code
is it some desperate attempt to keep the StarCraft Audience around?
(ok, so I'm still not a land unit fan, it hasn't kept me from playing
has it? :)
--
Mark Delgado - "Your Dreams are filled with Blood And Gore
AIT - Kevlar - Now they're right outside your door
Woufb - GM - They're gonna get you" -Switchblade Symphony
Kelly Fergason
This is funny. Read the group for the first time in months, and
what do I find.
Please remember there were 2 Barsoom's. Someone else
started using the name after I quit playing.
From what I have read over the past 8 years, I gather he was
annoying.
Tarkas of Barsoom
On 21 Oct 1999 08:24:20 -0500, cas...@sherrill.kiva.net (Geoff
Cashman) wrote:
>Bug abuse in an active, undetermined result game is annoying
>and terribly counter-productive. But, it sure added flavor to
>a few dying games. Oh, and Barsoom? If you're still reading, you're
>still A) a 'bot, and B) a prick. :)
>
>-Geoff
> aka Mithrilien