WotC Bites!!!
DragonCent
like to tell you WotC's money-making master plan. Knowing that the
Magic fad will eventually die anyway, they decided to be truly evil,
and make WADS of money in a VERY short period of time, while speeding
the fad's death. I'd also like to mention that I haven't been taken
in. I bought no Revised cards, and my only Legends pack was an
unsolicited gift. Anyway, here's the vile scheme:
First, make very limited numbers of AQs--generally less than were
originally ordered by a given game shop. Then, print Revised cards.
Throw in all the REALLY unfair cards, like The Hive, Sorceress Queen,
Alladin's Lamp & Ring, etc. Then make all the powerful cards
surprisingly common. (I've seen more Revised Gaea's Lieges than
Counterspells--and I've been LOOKING for Counterspells!!!) Thus,
people will buy LOTS & LOTS of revised cards to gain lots and lots of
these really cool cards. Finally, come out with Legends, and make
the cool cards much rarer--and MUCH more powerful, so people will
quickly buy HUGE numbers of Legends, expecting lots of amazing cards,
expecting that the stores will quickly run our of Legends, and only
getting a few of the cool cards they expect. They will then buy MANY
MORE legends packs in order to get the kinds of cards they're
surprised they didn't get!
To insure that people HAVE to buy lots of Legends to stay in the
game, WotC conveniently created three types of Legends:
1. Lots and lots of worthless cards (i.e. Kobolds, Kobold lords
[which do things like making Kobolds 0/2 First strike, Trampling],
Hornet Cobras [Elvis Impersonator Archers--almost twice as expensive
as the original w/ the same stats], and
Glyphs-of-being-useful-only-in-extremely-limited-situations.)
2. Many cards designed to slow down the game (i.e. all those walls,
life-gaining spells, Landwalk blockers, some of the aforementioned
Glyphs, etc. ad infinitum)
3. Most Importantly, cards that effectively say "Tap to win game."
(i.e. Super Royal Assassin [I forgot the name of this card], The
Wretched, etc.) OK. Their not "Tap to win game", but their still
incredibly evil cards.
I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'll still play Magic, and
I'll still win many games (I construct better decks--even with all
five colors and no duplicates except basic land--than almost anyone
in my area, and definitely employ better strategy. And I'm modest,
too.) I don't know if WotC is really employing any grand
money-making strategy, but it sure seems that way, and they are,
after all, a profit corporation; that's their job. But I am finding
that Legends brings me more into agreement with whoever posted the
first "Magic is no fun anymore" letter. I used to think it was cards
like Forcefield, and combinations like Veteran Bodyguard &
Regeneration; Time Vault, Animate Artifact, and Instill Energy; or
any one or two colors and Convocation Tournament Rules (4 Control
Magics, 4 Pirate Ships, 4 Clones, 4 Spell Blasts, 4...) that ruined
the game. Now I have to wonder. I'm not even going to describe what
new and evil combinations Legends creates (except, say, Infernal
Medusa [or Thicket Basilisk] + Gaseous Form + Lure--even better than
Regeneration! Plus you can have 4 Basilisks, 4 Medusae, 4
Regenerations, and 4 Gaseious Forms--significantly increasign yor
chances of getting the right cards out...)
And some of the other things you can do just don't bear thinking
about.
--Oz
Chad A. Cooper
: Yes, with this type of title, I owe you an explanation. First, I'd
: --Oz
You said it yourself, they are a company and it's their job to make
money. And, if I was a public stock holder and they WEREN'T doind
everything they could to make money, I would have a problem with their
management. I don't really believe all the Theory conspiracies anyway,
but if they are true, oh well, suck it up and drive on.
Secondly, that's why you have rules. If some combinations/cards are too
powerful, then the rules will be altered to bring the game back into
line. That's what it's all about. :)
Chad Cooper
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
OK, basic economics part one: There are occasions (though rare) when a
provider of goods far underestimates the market. WotC far underestimated
the market for Magic: the Gathering. We're still living through some of
the after-effects of that.
Basic economics part two: In a free market, customers buy freely. Now, in
the M:tG case, the demand far exceeds the supply, so that there will be
customers who don't get to buy some cards, because they sell out (first
come first serve).
Basic economics part three: There is no conspiracy. It's simply limited
how much production you can get out of a printing press. What next,
"Amtrak are trying to slow down my travel times since they don't run their
trains at 1,000 mph. It's a conspiracy."
Basic good news part one: When Spellfire, Jyhad, Netrunner, On the Edge
and the Illuminati trading card game get released the pressure on M:tG
will sink, because some players will move to the new games, and new
players might pick up some of the new games instead.
Feel better now?
- Tor Iver
--
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor...@pvv.unit.no> CS student at NTH, Trondheim, NO
Info: http://www.pvv.unit.no/~toriver/ Member of The Software Workshop, UNIT
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
- Dr. Barry Gehm's corollary to Clarke's law
Schultz, Russell
in different colors.
This homogenization of the colors of magic makes building decks less of
a tradeoff in 'blue is the anti-spell deck but 'green has lots of big
creatures how do i get lots of creatures, yet be able to protect them
from red's fireballs' and more of a 'i need to buy lots of cards so i
get the green version of spell-blast'
Plus i was rather annoyed at seeing the same combinations of cards in
my legends packs. In one, i actually got 2 vampire bats, 2 mana
tap(?--blue card with a pulsing stone orb on it) and 2 clerics of the
white robe. In another pack, i got another 2 clerics of the white
robes, plus 2 of the zephyr falcons. PURE ANNOYANCE.
In 10 packs--out of all the cards i could have gotten--i got 4 headless
horsemen, 7 vampire bats, 4 clerics of the white robe, 4 walls of
shadows, 4 chain lightnings, 4 wandering/lost souls, more others i cant
remember. Seems to me to be a whole lot of duplication---especially in
the same packs. I realise that these are 'common' cards...but i
figured it would take more than 10 packs to get the full complement(4+)
of _several_ different cards. And almost certainly no duplication of
cards (other than land) in the SAME PACK.
Just my $23.41 :/
Russ
Lisa Richardson
>OK, basic economics part one: There are occasions (though rare) when a
>provider of goods far underestimates the market. WotC far underestimated
>the market for Magic: the Gathering. We're still living through some of
>the after-effects of that.
Which will hurt them in the long run if they continue to under estimate
their market.
>Basic economics part two: In a free market, customers buy freely. Now, in
>the M:tG case, the demand far exceeds the supply, so that there will be
>customers who don't get to buy some cards, because they sell out (first
>come first serve).
However, Basic Economics does not consider that when Supply vs. Demand is
out of whack, the price to fulfill the demand tends to go up, while WotC
uses Fixed Prices, those who try to fulfill the demand by using the Fixed
price at bought, will sell at an escalating price to satiate the demand.
Therefore, WotC failed on this aspect of their own economics, while the
buyer of their material is making more money then they are because WotC
lack of supply, while a third party makes their supply rather large at the
beginning.
>Basic economics part three: There is no conspiracy. It's simply limited
>how much production you can get out of a printing press. What next,
>"Amtrak are trying to slow down my travel times since they don't run their
>trains at 1,000 mph. It's a conspiracy."
True, there is no conspiracy... On WotC's part. But WotC is partially to
blame for allowing a third party to dictate how much a person should be
willing to buy one card because it was so limited other than the fixed
price at which the third party bought the card in the first place.
>Basic good news part one: When Spellfire, Jyhad, Netrunner, On the Edge
>and the Illuminati trading card game get released the pressure on M:tG
>will sink, because some players will move to the new games, and new
>players might pick up some of the new games instead.
>Feel better now?
Just one problem with your Goodnews... While Spelfire, On the Edge and
Illuminati will try to release the pressure of the Trading Card Game that
MtG has started, Jyhad and Netrunner are from WotC. WotC will execute
Jyhad and Netrunner the SAME way they have done with MtG if they continue
to use Carte Mundi as their Printer, therefore limited Prints of cards once
again, and a third party WILL gain more in the long AND short run than
WotC. TSR and the other companies have their OWN PRINTERS and can handle
mass distribution than WotC, which May make WotC loose even more money in
the long run than TSR and the other companies, mainly because of the
AVAILABILITY to supply the demand, not because "Oh, it is just a copy of
Magic.".
As I see it, WotC might not last long if they do NOT make an effort to work
on the long run scheme and saturate the market with what they have to make
sure than those who buy a lot of cards will just have a lot of cards, not
this "Oh, all the cards I have now are no longer in print... Well, I'll
sell them at 5 to 50 times their worth and make lots of money." mentality.
It is THIS kind of mentality that will hurt WotC because of the limited
printing, and they will not be able to have new customers because of the
lack of availability or the high cost of just a FEW cards sold by a third
party.
--
Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.44.29) 2035
DragonCent
:You said it yourself, they are a company and it's their job to make
:everything they could to make money, I would have a problem with
:their
:management. I don't really believe all the Theory conspiracies
:anyway,
:but if they are true, oh well, suck it up and drive on.
:
:Secondly, that's why you have rules. If some combinations/cards
:are too
:powerful, then the rules will be altered to bring the game back into
:line. That's what it's all about. :)
:
:Chad Cooper
I actually don't really believe these conspiracy theories, either;
but if I were a WotC manager, and wanted to make a lot of money in a
short time, at the expense of game enjoyment, I can't think of much I
could do that would be more effective then what they HAVE done.
As for having rules, the only occasion when I've seen rules changed
to eliminate unfair cards/card combinations was in the transition
from A to B. Since then, these cards and combinations have been
dealt with by taking cards outof later editions (i.e. Force Field,
Icy Manipulator--the latter goes with Royal Assassin or multiple
Psychic Venoms, and is amazing by itself, of course). This has not
prevented people from getting copies of these cards that already
exist, though, and they've been replaced with AN cards that are as
bad or worse, and more common, in Revised.
tor...@pvv.unit.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen) wrote:
:ObJokeAboutAOLers: Withheld because of modesty.
:
:OK, basic economics part one: There are occasions (though rare)
:when a
:provider of goods far underestimates the market. WotC far
:underestimated
:the market for Magic: the Gathering. We're still living through some
:of
:the after-effects of that.
:
:Basic economics part two: In a free market, customers buy freely.
:Now, in
:the M:tG case, the demand far exceeds the supply, so that there will
:be
:customers who don't get to buy some cards, because they sell out
:(first
:come first serve).
:
:Basic economics part three: There is no conspiracy. It's simply
:limited
:how much production you can get out of a printing press. What next,
:"Amtrak are trying to slow down my travel times since they don't
:run their
:trains at 1,000 mph. It's a conspiracy."
:
:Basic good news part one: When Spellfire, Jyhad, Netrunner, On the
:Edge
:and the Illuminati trading card game get released the pressure on
:M:tG
:will sink, because some players will move to the new games, and :new
:players might pick up some of the new games instead.
:
:Feel better now?
:- Tor Iver
Um, actually, I wasn't complaining about anything you adressed here.
I just included the point about how limited AQs were because it
happened to fit well with the "Conspiracy" theory. The idea was that
people will (wrongly) assume that Legends are as hard to come by as
AQs were, so they'll buy lots of cards "before they sell out". Also,
my biggest problems were with distribution and the cards themselves:
lots of cards that have damage done to them reduced to 0, land-walk
blocking enchantments, a beefed up Royal Assassin with an even better
power, a 7/7 Flying, built in Holy Armor & Castle, etc. etc., while
those people who want to save money end up with Hornet Cobras (just
like Elvish Archers, except they suck more!), lots of Kobolds, Lands
that only affect Gold cards, and don't even give you mana, Rust, or
those annoying white guys who are as bad as Hurloon Minotaurs. Oh
yeah, and things like Walking Dead, which are EXACTLY the same (in
game terms) as already existent RV cards.
So, no, I don't feel better now.
Also, just for the record, I'm not an "AOLer" I HATE AOL; the
interface REALLY SUCKS. I just don't have access to my normal
account over the summer. This is my screen name on my parents'
account.
--Oz
Cedric Chin
|> DragonCent (drago...@aol.com) wrote:
|> : Yes, with this type of title, I owe you an explanation. First, I'd
|> : like to tell you WotC's money-making master plan. Knowing that the
|> : Magic fad will eventually die anyway, they decided to be truly evil,
|> : and make WADS of money in a VERY short period of time, while speeding
|> : the fad's death. I'd also like to mention that I haven't been taken
|> : in. I bought no Revised cards, and my only Legends pack was an
|> : unsolicited gift. Anyway, here's the vile scheme:
Fad? Like AD&D was a fad?
|> : First, make very limited numbers of AQs--generally less than were
|> : originally ordered by a given game shop.
Considering that WotC is a small company and that game stores are small
companies, neither would take such a risk.
(Now, all I want to see is MtG on a Toys 'R' Us scale, with alternate
Black cards for kids...)
|> Then, print Revised cards.
What, you don't want WotC to at least try to correct their errors?
|> : Throw in all the REALLY unfair cards, like The Hive, Sorceress Queen,
|> : Alladin's Lamp & Ring, etc.
Oh, puh-lease. These artifacts are like giving birth. They're powerful
BUT their achilles heel is their casting cost and they have the words
"Crumble Me" printed on them in big bold letters.
The SQ is a piece of cake. Throw out your second Big Monster (TM), or
just Lightening Bolt her.
|> Then make all the powerful cards surprisingly common.
First everyone b*tches that you had the Uncommons and Rares to play...
|> (I've seen more Revised Gaea's Lieges than
|> : Counterspells--and I've been LOOKING for Counterspells!!!)
That's b/c GL's are harder to play than Counterspells. Tell you what --
I'll trade a Counterspell for a Serra Angel.
|> Thus,
|> : people will buy LOTS & LOTS of revised cards to gain lots and lots of
|> : these really cool cards.
TRADE lots and lots. I've traded my Uncommon Dragon Whelps (ouch) for
some darn good rares.
|> Finally, come out with Legends, and make
|> : the cool cards much rarer--and MUCH more powerful, so people will
|> : quickly buy HUGE numbers of Legends, expecting lots of amazing cards,
Well, name those Legends cards that beat RV cards. Look! Force Spike!
Aieee!!!
What amazing cards? We're just not admitting to ourselves that we're
collectors as much as we are gamers.
|> : expecting that the stores will quickly run our of Legends,
Pre-Order. I even found a company that will mail you **packs** of cards.
|> and only
|> : getting a few of the cool cards they expect.
So trade, trade, trade. Magic cards have quite a bit of subjective worth.
|> They will then buy MANY
|> : MORE legends packs in order to get the kinds of cards they're
|> : surprised they didn't get!
TRADE.
|> : To insure that people HAVE to buy lots of Legends to stay in the
|> : game, WotC conveniently created three types of Legends:
That part I agree with -- no more sets!!!
|> : 1. Lots and lots of worthless cards (i.e. Kobolds, Kobold lords
|> : [which do things like making Kobolds 0/2 First strike, Trampling],
|> : Hornet Cobras [Elvis Impersonator Archers--almost twice as expensive
|> : as the original w/ the same stats], and
Trade 'em away to people collecting the Kobold Lords!
'Sides Kobalds are hilarious! Not enough Ornithopters in your diet?
Have a few Kobalds! (And Orcish Oriflammes.)
|> : Glyphs-of-being-useful-only-in-extremely-limited-situations.)
Now you know what to do with a Lure.
|> : 2. Many cards designed to slow down the game (i.e. all those walls,
|> : life-gaining spells, Landwalk blockers, some of the aforementioned
|> : Glyphs, etc. ad infinitum)
(No comment, since I like long Magic multiplayer games and haven't played
Legends yet -- have you???)
|> : 3. Most Importantly, cards that effectively say "Tap to win game."
|> : (i.e. Super Royal Assassin [I forgot the name of this card], The
|> : Wretched, etc.) OK. Their not "Tap to win game", but their still
|> : incredibly evil cards.
I'd like to see how good a Manaflare Fireball Disintegrate is.
|> : I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'll still play Magic, and
|> : I'll still win many games (I construct better decks--even with all
|> : five colors and no duplicates except basic land--than almost anyone
|> : in my area, and definitely employ better strategy. And I'm modest,
|> : too.)
So ante.
|> I don't know if WotC is really employing any grand
|> : money-making strategy, but it sure seems that way, and they are,
|> : after all, a profit corporation; that's their job.
It's the players who are demanding the cards, and the retailers who
aren't ordering enough, plus the long delay time between placing an
order and distributing the cards.
|> But I am finding
|> : that Legends brings me more into agreement with whoever posted the
|> : first "Magic is no fun anymore" letter.
No fun for collectors -- you should still be able to make a good deck.
(Blah blah blah. I'm tired of this.)
Cedric.
--
Keep bugging your distributor / retailer for a Collector's Edition
of Legends and Jyhad, and save yourself some $$$.
Cedric Chin
|> In <2tk4gv$q...@ugle.unit.no> tor...@pvv.unit.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen) writes:
|>
|> >OK, basic economics part one: There are occasions (though rare) when a
|> >provider of goods far underestimates the market. WotC far underestimated
|> >the market for Magic: the Gathering. We're still living through some of
|> >the after-effects of that.
|>
|> Which will hurt them in the long run if they continue to under estimate
|> their market.
The risks of being stuck with unusable inventory outweigh the gains of potential
profit. That's why WotC are game sellers and not venture capitalists. That's
why you didn't buy a box of boosters after playing the game Friday night.
|> >Basic economics part two: In a free market, customers buy freely. Now, in
|> >the M:tG case, the demand far exceeds the supply, so that there will be
|> >customers who don't get to buy some cards, because they sell out (first
|> >come first serve).
|>
|> However, Basic Economics does not consider that when Supply vs. Demand is
|> out of whack, the price to fulfill the demand tends to go up, while WotC
|> uses Fixed Prices, those who try to fulfill the demand by using the Fixed
|> price at bought, will sell at an escalating price to satiate the demand.
|> Therefore, WotC failed on this aspect of their own economics, while the
|> buyer of their material is making more money then they are because WotC
|> lack of supply, while a third party makes their supply rather large at the
|> beginning.
What? You're describing arbitrage plain and simple!
|> >Basic economics part three: There is no conspiracy. It's simply limited
|> >how much production you can get out of a printing press. What next,
|> >"Amtrak are trying to slow down my travel times since they don't run their
|> >trains at 1,000 mph. It's a conspiracy."
|>
|> True, there is no conspiracy... On WotC's part. But WotC is partially to
|> blame for allowing a third party to dictate how much a person should be
|> willing to buy one card because it was so limited other than the fixed
|> price at which the third party bought the card in the first place.
Didn't pre-order or ask your retailer, did you.
|> >Basic good news part one: When Spellfire, Jyhad, Netrunner, On the Edge
|> >and the Illuminati trading card game get released the pressure on M:tG
|> >will sink, because some players will move to the new games, and new
|> >players might pick up some of the new games instead.
|>
|> >Feel better now?
|>
|> Just one problem with your Goodnews... While Spelfire, On the Edge and
|> Illuminati will try to release the pressure of the Trading Card Game that
|> MtG has started, Jyhad and Netrunner are from WotC. WotC will execute
|> Jyhad and Netrunner the SAME way they have done with MtG if they continue
|> to use Carte Mundi as their Printer, therefore limited Prints of cards once
|> again, and a third party WILL gain more in the long AND short run than
|> WotC. TSR and the other companies have their OWN PRINTERS and can handle
|> mass distribution than WotC, which May make WotC loose even more money in
|> the long run than TSR and the other companies, mainly because of the
|> AVAILABILITY to supply the demand, not because "Oh, it is just a copy of
|> Magic.".
Oh, sure. Like WotC can go out tomorrow and buy a printing plant.
|> As I see it, WotC might not last long if they do NOT make an effort to work
|> on the long run scheme and saturate the market with what they have to make
|> sure than those who buy a lot of cards will just have a lot of cards, not
|> this "Oh, all the cards I have now are no longer in print... Well, I'll
|> sell them at 5 to 50 times their worth and make lots of money." mentality.
|> It is THIS kind of mentality that will hurt WotC because of the limited
|> printing, and they will not be able to have new customers because of the
|> lack of availability or the high cost of just a FEW cards sold by a third
|> party.
I'd still like a second printing of AN AQ and Legends, but not even big companies
in the comic book industry can make reprints of their popular selling titles.
Read the .sig. Demand a Collector's Edition. Screw the hoarders.
Cedric.
The Grim Reaper
Schultz, Russell <schultz...@semail.jsc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>My personal beef with the legends expansion is the duplication of cards
>in different colors.
>
>This homogenization of the colors of magic makes building decks less of
>a tradeoff in 'blue is the anti-spell deck but 'green has lots of big
>creatures how do i get lots of creatures, yet be able to protect them
>from red's fireballs' and more of a 'i need to buy lots of cards so i
>get the green version of spell-blast'
I'd have to agree. Especially in legends, but it was a bit visible in
earlier expansions, I think the colors are getting more and more homogenous.
Blue's the counterspell color? Nope, green now has Avoid Fate. Red's the
big damage color? Nope, green has storm seeker, blue has various damaging
spells, etc. Green is anti-artifact? Try divine offering, the white
improvement on crumble. And fog? Well, everyone seems to have one of those.
Something that used to be really cool about MtG was how each color had its
strengths and weaknesses. Red could blast, but it couldn't prevent damage
or deal with enchantments. Green got out fast creatures and mana, but couldn't
do direct damage. White could prevent damage really well, but couldn't deal
damage or gain life too easily. Blue had really nice cards overall, but
had serious trouble dealing with permanents once they got into play
(especially enchantments). But now? Well, every expansion seems to weaken
the traditional lines between the colors. White got alabaster potion, which
is a combination guardian angel and stream of life. And the D'Avignon archers,
which, although they fit well in my blue/white doink deck, are very out of
flavor for white. White also got those vultures, which is really bizarre,
they're much more in the style of black. Red got the 0-casting cost kobolds,
basically destroying green's advantage of cheap creatures. When colors
do dabble in another color's domain, they should be more balanced. Ideally,
they should be more expensive than a equivalent spell. Horror of Horrors,
for instance, is an expensive black enchantment that allows you to sacrifice
a swamp to regenerate a creature. This is good. It's expensive, but worth it.
Legends had some good stuff, though. Indestructible Aura is nice and in
character for white... there's now a red creature with protection from white,
something red sorely needs, considering straight red gets eaten by straight
white... Plus various other stuff. Green has a creature with prot black, too.
Slightly off-topic, how about some more variety in blue-vs-red spells?
BEB, REB, and now Flash Flood and Active Volcano are just opposites of one
another, no interesting things at all. I'd rather see something like
Flash Fires vs Conversion, where they are equally powerful (okay, almost
equally powerful), but not just duplicates of each other.
But to return to my main point, if WotC really wants to encourage multi-color
decks (a good idea), making all the colors the same is not going to do it.
>Just my $23.41 :/
>Russ
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| One .sig to rule them all, one .sig to find them... |
| One .sig to bring them all and in the darkness bind them |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Grim Reaper (Reaper of Souls, Stealer of .sigs) |
| scy...@u.washington.edu |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
John Benn
adequate production facilities. With the number of customers out
there they should seriously consider either slowing the pace of
expansions and using the time to print more of each expansion or by
purchasing their own production facilities.
There are several myths on the net about WotC:
1. They print less expansion cards then are ordered on purpose.
This is the 1st age old myth. Let me give you an example using the
current Legends situation. You walk into your dealer and ask for
Legends and your dealers says:"Damn WotC. They shorted me and I can't
sell you any Legends." The reality is that back in January when
Legends were to be ordered by distributors, they asked dealers about
how many they would expect to sell. Dealers underestimated demand.
So the distributor in January tells WotC that they need X boxes. Then
the game grows in popularity and dealers decide that they need more
boxes around April, so they up their orders. Distributors realize
that the demand is more like X-squared, but it's too late. Then when
the set comes out dealers say:"My distributor screwed me." How many
dealers do you think that are getting 100 boxes, actually ordered 100
boxes when asked in January. Almost none. If you don't have cards it
isn't anyones fault. WotC, Distributors and Dealers all
underestimated demand for the cards. Solution: Expand production and
print more cards.
2. The expansion cards are better and favor those with money.
There are some great Legends cards and some poor Legends cards,
just like Beta, Revised, AQ, AN etc....The newer sets don't really
have a higher percentage of great cards. It's a myth. Sure an Elder
Dragon is a great card, but so is a Force of Nature and the FoN is
less vulnerable to different colors. There are MANY examples like
this.
3. Expansion sets are for money grubbing bastards at WotC.
Expansion sets expand the scope of the game. They keep the game
fresh. Most of the better cards get swapped into Revised anyway.
Without expansion sets the game would grow stale and stagnate.
With these things said I feel for anyone who didn't manage to get
any Legends, and there "should" be another print run, but I wouldn't
sweat it. There are a million ways to skin a cat in this game and you
don't NEED Legends to do it. There will be other expansions and I
hope that in the future everyone sees the writing on the wall a little
sooner.
Citykid
Benn) writes:
" You walk into your dealer and ask for
Legends and your dealers says:"Damn WotC. They shorted me and I
can't
sell you any Legends." The reality is that back in January when
Legends were to be ordered by distributors, they asked dealers about
how many they would expect to sell. Dealers underestimated demand."
This statement isn't quite accurate, WOTC did in fact short ship many
distributors on orders that had been placed in advance and
guaranteed. WOTC established a scale of "punishments" against
distributers that had in some way offended WOTC during previous
shipments. In many cases they penalized the distributors by short
shipping them by as much a 15% of their orders. This short shipping
effected many retailers' ability to fill preorders by their
customers. If you're upset about not getting your preorders, don't
blame the retailer, instead look to WOTC and their strategies that
only really hurt the consumers.
Tom Wylie
>First, make very limited numbers of AQs--generally less than were
>originally ordered by a given game shop.
WotC printed up basically as many cards as were preordered by the cutoff
date. If a shop tried to order more cards after this and a distributor
didn't have any preorders left, too bad. If a distributor decided they
like game store A more than game store B, so shorted B to fill A's orders,
too bad. But we didn't short any distributors Antiquities, and since
we don't sell directly to retailers (for the most part, anyway), it would
be difficult to short specific stores even if we wanted to.
>Then, print Revised cards.
>Throw in all the REALLY unfair cards, like The Hive, Sorceress Queen,
>Alladin's Lamp & Ring, etc. Then make all the powerful cards
>surprisingly common. (I've seen more Revised Gaea's Lieges than
>Counterspells--and I've been LOOKING for Counterspells!!!) Thus,
Yeah, so there, are distribution quirks. There was a group in Texas who
thought Craw Wurms were rare, because they opened a box or two of cards
and only got one. This thing just happens. You're also more likely to
find people wanting to trade a Liege than a Counterspell.
Also, The Hive was in the Unlimited edition, it wasn't introduced in
an expansion set. And as others have noted, there's nothing particularly
"unfair" about any of the cards you mention... the Queen is pretty
squishable, being a 1/1 creature and all (ever notice how most of the
creatures with sick abilities are 1/1?). The Ring and the Lamp are really
expensive to get out, so it's not like the game is going to be flooded
with them... a lot of people I know are of the opinion that if their
opponent can get enough mana to create a Ring and use it consistently,
then they've let the game drag on too long as it is.
>people will buy LOTS & LOTS of revised cards to gain lots and lots of
>these really cool cards.
Guess what, this has always happened, right back to the alpha days.
>Finally, come out with Legends, and make
>the cool cards much rarer--and MUCH more powerful, so people will
>quickly buy HUGE numbers of Legends, expecting lots of amazing cards,
>expecting that the stores will quickly run our of Legends, and only
>getting a few of the cool cards they expect. They will then buy MANY
>MORE legends packs in order to get the kinds of cards they're
>surprised they didn't get!
People are creating their own demand here. There is this misconception that
new cards = more powerful cards; the point of expansions is to provide
variety, not to escalate the game. So far I haven't seen any posts from
anyone who's gotten their Legends, sat down, seriously looked at them, and
decided they imbalance the game. In fact, I've seen several posts from
people impressed that the set *doesn't* imbalance the game.
>To insure that people HAVE to buy lots of Legends to stay in the
>game, WotC conveniently created three types of Legends:
We don't make people buy cards. In fact, it's distressing, in a way,
just how many cards people do buy; it really threw a lot of the original
rares out of whack (moxen, time vault, etc).
>1. Lots and lots of worthless cards (i.e. Kobolds, Kobold lords
>[which do things like making Kobolds 0/2 First strike, Trampling],
>Hornet Cobras [Elvis Impersonator Archers--almost twice as expensive
>as the original w/ the same stats], and
Wait until someone puts together a Kobold deck for a tournament, then
see how worthless you think they are. Hornet Cobras might be more
expensive than the Archers, but it's a lot easier to get lots of Cobras,
which if anything would not give people an incentive to buy more cards.
>Glyphs-of-being-useful-only-in-extremely-limited-situations.)
Sometimes surprise is worth more than permanency. Jump can be much more
useful than Flight, for example, since you can unexpectedly block and kill
their favorite flier. The Glyphs are the same way.
>2. Many cards designed to slow down the game (i.e. all those walls,
>life-gaining spells, Landwalk blockers, some of the aforementioned
>Glyphs, etc. ad infinitum)
Color me crazy, but I find "I must win in 6 turns" decks boring. I like
to play the game and explore the possibilites, so if a card does lead
to the game being dragged out, so much the better. This is a matter of
preference in playing style, not a reason to slam WotC.
>3. Most Importantly, cards that effectively say "Tap to win game."
>(i.e. Super Royal Assassin [I forgot the name of this card], The
>Wretched, etc.) OK. Their not "Tap to win game", but their still
>incredibly evil cards.
The fact that there are evil cards in Legends shouldn't be too surprising.
There are evil cards in the Gathering, there were evil cards in Arabian
Nights, there were evil cards in Antiquities. What made you think this
trend wouldn't continue? This doesn't mean you absolutely must buy Legends...
if it's evil cards you're worried about, there are plenty of evil cards
it sounds like you already have access too, and it's just as easy to trash
the evil Legends cards as it is to trash the ones you've already seen
(easier, in some cases).
>I don't know if WotC is really employing any grand
>money-making strategy, but it sure seems that way, and they are,
>after all, a profit corporation; that's their job.
We're not trying to bleed the consumer for every last cent, if that's what
you mean.
>But I am finding
>that Legends brings me more into agreement with whoever posted the
>first "Magic is no fun anymore" letter. I used to think it was cards
>like Forcefield, and combinations like Veteran Bodyguard &
>Regeneration; Time Vault, Animate Artifact, and Instill Energy; or
>any one or two colors and Convocation Tournament Rules (4 Control
>Magics, 4 Pirate Ships, 4 Clones, 4 Spell Blasts, 4...) that ruined
>the game. Now I have to wonder.
Again, it sounds like you already have these "spoilers" available to you.
If people are irking you with their nasty Legends combinations, use the
combinations of your own. Legends didn't make it particularly easy to
sabotage the old combos, and again, it's relatively easy to sabotage the
combs in Legends.
>And some of the other things you can do just don't bear thinking about.
And the Vault/Animate/Instill combo does bear thinking about?
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Tom Wylie
>This statement isn't quite accurate, WOTC did in fact short ship many
>distributors on orders that had been placed in advance and
>guaranteed. WOTC established a scale of "punishments" against
>distributers that had in some way offended WOTC during previous
>shipments.
A handful of distributors were penalized because they breached contract
by shipping Antiquities (or whatever) early. It didn't happen just because
we didn't like them, or anything. Shaking our finger at people has been
tried, and obviously didn't work, so we enacted penalties.
>In many cases they penalized the distributors by short
>shipping them by as much a 15% of their orders.
Only one distributor was shorted 15%. Everyone else was 5 or 10 percent.
>If you're upset about not getting your preorders, don't
>blame the retailer, instead look to WOTC and their strategies that
>only really hurt the consumers.
The ultimate blame here lies on the distributors who can't follow the rules.
If some distributors ship early as a habit, then the consumers will find this
out, and find out which retailers get their cards from these distributors,
and will order their cards from them. Those retailers using other distributors
will then be stuck, unless they jump ship and starting ordering product from
those distributors which are breaking the rules. This is all in all a bad
thing. The whole situation with the early shipments and whatnot really
sucked, but it was something that had to be done.
Tom Wylie
>I'd have to agree. Especially in legends, but it was a bit visible in
>earlier expansions, I think the colors are getting more and more homogenous.
>Blue's the counterspell color? Nope, green now has Avoid Fate. Red's the
>big damage color? Nope, green has storm seeker, blue has various damaging
>spells, etc. Green is anti-artifact? Try divine offering, the white
>improvement on crumble. And fog? Well, everyone seems to have one of those.
What you're missing here is that while these are all analagous to spells from
other colors, they're all less powerful than their equivalent spells.
Avoid Fate targets a fairly limited subset of effects, and will only help
your creatures; it won't help against Unsummon or Disintegrate, for example.
Storm Seeker is actually a very limited spell, as it depends on your opponent
having lots of cards in their hand (which tends not to happen in long games).
Think of it as a one-shot Black Vise, not a direct damage spell per se; in
the long run, you will get much more mileage out of a Fireball. Divine
Offering is better thought of as an equivalent for Disenchant: for the price
of reduced utility (doesn't destroy enchantments), you gain lives instead.
The blue damaging spells virtually all have some kind of drawback, just like
Psionic Blast did. All the Fog-equivalents are equivalent to the old Fogs,
not the new, so are inferior to that for most purposes (the Revised Fog stops
a basilisk's petrification, for example, but Darkness and the others do not).
While each color has some more versatility now, they're hardly making major
inroads into the other colors' specialities. For each spell which "invades"
another color's forte, that other color has 3 or 4 spells which just make
it better at that forte.
>Slightly off-topic, how about some more variety in blue-vs-red spells?
>BEB, REB, and now Flash Flood and Active Volcano are just opposites of one
>another, no interesting things at all. I'd rather see something like
>Flash Fires vs Conversion, where they are equally powerful (okay, almost
>equally powerful), but not just duplicates of each other.
What about Magnetic Mountain and Volcanic Eruption?
DrBillS
(DragonCent) writes:
>> First, I'd like to tell you WotC's money-making master plan.
Knowing that the
>> Magic fad will eventually die anyway, they decided to be truly
evil,
>> and make WADS of money in a VERY short period of time, while
speeding
>> the fad's death.
Sure, and Elvis heads the Illumanati, of which WOTC is a meer puppet.
Bill
Dave Howell
>This statement isn't quite accurate, WOTC did in fact short ship many
>distributors on orders that had been placed in advance and
>guaranteed. WOTC established a scale of "punishments" against
>distributers that had in some way offended WOTC during previous
They offended other distributors, not us.
>shipments. In many cases they penalized the distributors by short
>shipping them by as much a 15% of their orders. This short shipping
>effected many retailers' ability to fill preorders by their
>customers. If you're upset about not getting your preorders, don't
>blame the retailer, instead look to WOTC and their strategies that
>only really hurt the consumers.
This has all sorts of misinformation. Some distributors released Revised
and the PPG early. Many retailers had placed duplicate orders, and when
Distributor X released three days early, then the retailer canceled their
order with Distributor Y. Some of our distributors were really hurt by
this, and distributors are under strict instructions to knock it off.
Some distributors were punished by having their order cut. THOSE LEGENDS
CARDS WERE THEN SOLD TO OTHER DISTRIBUTORS! The number of cards released
to the public is exactly the same, and the end consumer is unaffected
unless all of the stores in their area ordered only from a shorted
distributor. Only one distributor was cut 15%, the others were 5% or 10%,
and it was only a few distributors to start with.
Dave "Snark" Howell sn...@wizards.com
Cyberspace Liaison lia...@wizards.com
Neal Feldman
JB> I don't agree. WotC is guilty of only one things: Not finding
JB> adequate production facilities. With the number of customers out
JB> there they should seriously consider either slowing the pace of
JB> expansions and using the time to print more of each expansion or by
JB> purchasing their own production facilities.
I think you miss the point. They ARE producing enough... I now, unlike
with the limited and Unlimited sets, see Revised boosters on shelves to
be bought.
As for LIMITED expansions, there has never been a secret that they print
what is ordered. Why should they load up the market with something
supposedly 'LIMITED'? If they did THAT then people would LEGITIMATELY
castrate them in public discussion.
JB> There are several myths on the net about WotC:
JB>
JB> 1. They print less expansion cards then are ordered on purpose.
JB>
JB> This is the 1st age old myth. Let me give you an example using the
JB> current Legends situation. You walk into your dealer and ask for
JB> Legends and your dealers says:"Damn WotC. They shorted me and I can't
JB> sell you any Legends." The reality is that back in January when
JB> Legends were to be ordered by distributors, they asked dealers about
JB> how many they would expect to sell. Dealers underestimated demand.
Also with AQ some distributors released early, and as a punishment for
this *breach of contract* on their part they had their orders reduced
from 5-15%. Lesson: follow the contractual agreements.
JB> So the distributor in January tells WotC that they need X boxes. Then
JB> the game grows in popularity and dealers decide that they need more
JB> boxes around April, so they up their orders. Distributors realize
JB> that the demand is more like X-squared, but it's too late. Then when
JB> the set comes out dealers say:"My distributor screwed me."
Again proving that the dealers in question lack even the basic reading
and comprehension abilities in the language they deal in. It says
CLEARLY that if you want them, order now, since you will not be able to
up orders after X dare... so if you wait until after X date it is your
tough luck... do not try and blame anyone but yourself. I told the
local stores about Legends long before the closing date... I told them
to hock whatever they could to order however much they possibly could...
it will sell out. Did they listen to me? A little... clearly not
enough. *I* ordered 10 boxes FOR MYSELF... I got more than just about
any store in town just for MYSELF. I thought this would drop a hint to
them. I was wrong. I NOW find myself being asked "how much should I
order?"... what a benefit being right is... 9-}
JB> How many
JB> dealers do you think that are getting 100 boxes, actually ordered 100
JB> boxes when asked in January. Almost none. If you don't have cards it
JB> isn't anyones fault. WotC, Distributors and Dealers all
JB> underestimated demand for the cards. Solution: Expand production and
JB> print more cards.
The point is that if they flood the market past initial demand it is not
a very limited 'Limited' set, is it? It reduces the colloctor aspect to
nothingness... and it IS part of the phenomenon.
JB> 2. The expansion cards are better and favor those with money.
JB>
JB> There are some great Legends cards and some poor Legends cards,
JB> just like Beta, Revised, AQ, AN etc....The newer sets don't really
JB> have a higher percentage of great cards. It's a myth.
Agreed.
JB> 3. Expansion sets are for money grubbing bastards at WotC.
JB>
JB> Expansion sets expand the scope of the game. They keep the game
JB> fresh. Most of the better cards get swapped into Revised anyway.
Except the gross ones... I doubt we will EVER see Guardian Beast or
Argivian Archaeologist (more chance of the latter than the former) in
Revised.
I did hear they (WotC) is gearing up for the next batch of Revised,
removing more cards, adding more AQ and Legends...
JB> Without expansion sets the game would grow stale and stagnate.
Yup... as everyone sets up their 'perfect little strategy'... this is
one reason, if for no other (and there are many others), for the
expansions.
JB> With these things said I feel for anyone who didn't manage to get
JB> any Legends, and there "should" be another print run, but I wouldn't
JB> sweat it. There are a million ways to skin a cat in this game and you
JB> don't NEED Legends to do it. There will be other expansions and I
JB> hope that in the future everyone sees the writing on the wall a little
JB> sooner.
My opinion is that if you did not get enough Legends, learn to trade,
and remember this when you preorder for Jyhad and Dark (etc).
... Dogs crawl under fences... software crawls under Windows!
--
Neal Feldman - via FidoNet node 1:114/9
UUCP: ...!enuucp!stat!edplace!3406!5.0!Neal.Feldman
INTERNET: Neal.F...@p0.f5.n3406.z1.fidonet.org
Andrew Brecher
Neal.F...@p0.f5.n3406.z1.fidonet.org (Neal Feldman) said:
> JB> From: be...@server.uwindsor.ca (John Benn)
>
> JB> I don't agree. WotC is guilty of only one things: Not finding
> JB> adequate production facilities. With the number of customers out
> JB> there they should seriously consider either slowing the pace of
> JB> expansions and using the time to print more of each expansion or by
> JB> purchasing their own production facilities.
>
>I think you miss the point. They ARE producing enough... I now, unlike
>with the limited and Unlimited sets, see Revised boosters on shelves to
>be bought.
Finally.
>As for LIMITED expansions, there has never been a secret that they print
>what is ordered. Why should they load up the market with something
>supposedly 'LIMITED'? If they did THAT then people would LEGITIMATELY
>castrate them in public discussion.
You mean more than they are now? And are you saying that people are
>illegitimately< castrating them now? I find that a bit insulting...
> JB> There are several myths on the net about WotC:
>
> JB> So the distributor in January tells WotC that they need X boxes. Then
> JB> the game grows in popularity and dealers decide that they need more
> JB> boxes around April, so they up their orders. Distributors realize
> JB> that the demand is more like X-squared, but it's too late. Then when
> JB> the set comes out dealers say:"My distributor screwed me."
>
>Again proving that the dealers in question lack even the basic reading
>and comprehension abilities in the language they deal in. It says
>CLEARLY that if you want them, order now, since you will not be able to
>up orders after X dare... so if you wait until after X date it is your
>tough luck... do not try and blame anyone but yourself. I told the
The thing is...>why< should orders be cut off so early? In this case, orders
had to be in >five months< before they were released. It is this lag time
that I personally consider to be the root of the problem. It means that
everyone who hears about Legends between January 16 and June 12 (after
preorders closed, before they were shipped) would have a very difficult time
finding Legends. That's a long time...
>local stores about Legends long before the closing date... I told them
>to hock whatever they could to order however much they possibly could...
>it will sell out. Did they listen to me? A little... clearly not
>enough. *I* ordered 10 boxes FOR MYSELF... I got more than just about
>any store in town just for MYSELF. I thought this would drop a hint to
>them. I was wrong. I NOW find myself being asked "how much should I
>order?"... what a benefit being right is... 9-}
True, but the point is you were taking a gamble. You won, but many stores,
especially the small ones, can't afford to preorder heavily, since they might
go bankrupt if it turns out that it won't sell. I really don't know how the
cards are printed, but it would seem to me that the best thing to do would be
to allow orders up to, say, two weeks after the initial release. It would
still be a limited printing, but it would be accurate to the demand as of the
release date, not some phantom figure (demand as of January) that was used that
really has little correlation to how much the cards would actually be in
demand.
Another thing- did you prepay back in December/January when you ordered? If
not, keep in mind your store had to gamble that you wouldn't skip out on them,
leaving them with (potentially) ten boxes of cards that might not sell. Don't
be so quick to judge those you don't know well. ("Walk a mile in their shoes",
etc.)
> JB> How many
> JB> dealers do you think that are getting 100 boxes, actually ordered 100
> JB> boxes when asked in January. Almost none. If you don't have cards it
> JB> isn't anyones fault. WotC, Distributors and Dealers all
> JB> underestimated demand for the cards. Solution: Expand production and
> JB> print more cards.
>
>The point is that if they flood the market past initial demand it is not
>a very limited 'Limited' set, is it? It reduces the colloctor aspect to
>nothingness... and it IS part of the phenomenon.
Nothing? Why nothing? What's the difference between printing a 70 million
card limited expansion and two 35 million card limited expansions? And how
are you defining "initial demand", anyway?
> JB> 2. The expansion cards are better and favor those with money.
> JB>
> JB> There are some great Legends cards and some poor Legends cards,
> JB> just like Beta, Revised, AQ, AN etc....The newer sets don't really
> JB> have a higher percentage of great cards. It's a myth.
>
>Agreed.
Here too. But my gripe isn't that I will lose more often than people with
Legends cards, it's that I'll have less fun than people with Legends cards, and
that Wizards is making a huge mistake not printing enough cards to satisfy
their customers.
> JB> 3. Expansion sets are for money grubbing bastards at WotC.
> JB>
> JB> Expansion sets expand the scope of the game. They keep the game
> JB> fresh. Most of the better cards get swapped into Revised anyway.
>
>Except the gross ones... I doubt we will EVER see Guardian Beast or
>Argivian Archaeologist (more chance of the latter than the former) in
>Revised.
Of course...there are always going to be a few bad cards that make it through
playtesting. Ancestral Recall is exceptionally gross, as I'm starting to
realize, since it's practically the only card in the game which has almost no
cost whatsoever. With any other card it takes up a slot in your deck where
other cards might be useful, but except for the one blue, you get your
investment right back- always.
>My opinion is that if you did not get enough Legends, learn to trade,
>and remember this when you preorder for Jyhad and Dark (etc).
My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy their
customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel very,
very soon. I personally believe that Magic will be nearly dead by a year from
now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
-Andrew Brecher (andrew_...@brown.edu) (insert disclaimer here)
Lisa Richardson
>My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy their
>customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel very,
>very soon. I personally believe that Magic will be nearly dead by a year from
>now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
This I agree with COMPLETELY. At least, they should make a 2nd run of the
Expansions that are like the "unlimited" batch where people can get the
cards. It does not make the Expansions any less expensive or worthwhile
for those who got them when they came out, mainly because they are not the
limited Print Black Borders. Therefore, still retaining their
collectability while the White Borders keep the gamers happy. The Clones
will definitely beat out WotC because Joe Blow Gamer is not going to be
competing against Joe Schmoe Collector to get the cards to play their
games, because within two or three weeks a new case of cards will come in.
WotC's current production doesn't quite allow for that. If they got more
than one printing facility, not just in Belgium, they might last a wee bit
longer.
Isaac McCroskey
>In <2u7b4t$4...@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu (Andrew Brecher) writes:
>>My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy their
>>customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel very,
No, they printed enough to satisfy their orders (and maybe a little more)
that were in by the designated date. Reviewing the whole process of how
the cards are ordered and distributed should help you make sense out of it.
I think that way back then stores just didn't order enough, you should
probably be pointing your finger at them.
>>very soon. I personally believe that Magic will be nearly dead by a year from
>>now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
I disagree, but since you didn't support your opinion I won't either.
>This I agree with COMPLETELY. At least, they should make a 2nd run of the
>Expansions that are like the "unlimited" batch where people can get the
>cards. It does not make the Expansions any less expensive or worthwhile
>for those who got them when they came out, mainly because they are not the
>limited Print Black Borders. Therefore, still retaining their
>collectability while the White Borders keep the gamers happy. The Clones
>will definitely beat out WotC because Joe Blow Gamer is not going to be
>competing against Joe Schmoe Collector to get the cards to play their
>games, because within two or three weeks a new case of cards will come in.
A second printing would be a really bad idea in my opinion for a couple of
reasons.
o Penny pinchers like myself who prefer to trade (like WotC recommends) over
trying to buy every single card, would bypass the first print run with the
little money we do spend, because we can always get second printings
cheaper. If a lot of people did this (and I am only saying they might),
stores could get shafted on first print runs and be less likely to order
them in the future.
o I have no problem with the way things work now. There has never been
a card I could not trade for, or a company somewhere that has a few
cards left to sell. WotC has stated its plan and has stuck to it.
The argument that every should be allowed to have all the cards is flawed.
The odds of me being able to persuade anyone who thinks that way to think
differently is minimal, just give it some thought, you may be able to
see the light yourself.
It all comes down to following the rules and risk.
Certain rules govern the ordering process and distribution of Magic cards.
Those rules are not going to change so as an individual or as part of a
group, we must all learn to cope with these rules or get the f*ck out of
this particular system and quit bitching. Rules of supply and demand would
suggest that we manipulate this dynamic system with our money, not
useless bellyaching. (Hey, I just bellyached, darn)
Risk is inherent in this commercial system we love so much. Placing the
blame on WotC for not producing enough cards, or saying that they should
produce more, simply means you want them to accept a larger risk, perhaps
a risk that you cannot perceive. It would be just as easy to blame stores
for not knowing that six months after the ordering date, that their Magic
consumers would triple (or more or whatever). One might just as well plead
with stores to order more cards so that WotC would print enough (enough
being subjective of course). Of course your local shopkeeper knows that if
she (or he) orders a huge amount of cards and the anticipated demand does
not materialize, she (or he) is screwed. Of course you'd be happy because
there would be a glut of cards and you could buy at will. So blame WotC for
not printing enough cards or the stores for not ordering enough, but either
way you seem to be stating that you want either one or both sides of this
equation to do things they have stated here on the Net that they are
uncomfortable doing for sole purpose that you don't like the system.
That's just my assessment, one of those opinion things,no more valid than
anyone elses surely.
>WotC's current production doesn't quite allow for that. If they got more
>than one printing facility, not just in Belgium, they might last a wee bit
>longer.
Once again, if orders were higher at the predetermined time, then perhaps
they would need another facility. As it is, they seem to be fulfilling
all the cards ordered, and therefore do not.
In sum, I really think the problem with a lot of these complaints is just
not understanding how things work, or the belief that changing them will
make things better without knowing all the details.
Some examples to tear apart (simplistic examples always do):
You are offered a ONE_TIME_ONLY deal on some kind of product. It is made very
clear to you that this will be ONE_TIME_ONLY and you have to order by a
specific date. They are only making as much of this product as is ordered.
You don't order the product and get mad when there isn't any left over.
Or you order some of this product and then realize you should have ordered
more. Is it the fault of the person making the offer or your fault that
you are now unhappy with your situation.
(The analogy of course is that you are a store in the real world)
You go to the store to buy Twinkies (tm) and they are sold out. These were
not just any Twinkies(tm) but that special kind that have quadruple shelf
life of the normal ones. They have only made these once and you have missed
the opportunity to suck the filling out of one because they sold out before
you got there. You ask the clerk if they will be getting any more and the
clerk (while wiping some filling from his face) informs you that they only
made as many as were ordered so you're screwed.
In our situation, I would blame the store for not ordering more knowing that
this was a one-time deal and well aware of my own desire for these special
treats. You would blame them for only producing these luscious things only
once, and then only as many as people said they wanted!
>--
>Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
>pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
>"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
>Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.44.29) 2035
Scott
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'I don't believe in God, but I fear Him' - Nicholas Cage
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
> My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy their
> customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel very,
> very soon. I personally believe that Magic will be nearly dead by a year from
> now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
Yes. I have to agree strongly here. I was out of town on Monday
the 13th and got back on the 16th. Every single store in town
(about 6 of them) said, "Yeah, we got Legends, but we sold out
of them hours after we got them." I had absolutely no chance
of walking into any store and buying any. A few phone calls to
major distributors across the USA gave me the same answer, "yes,
we got 350 boxes, but we sold them all within hours."
And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
Wizards, through Tom, tells us that no distributor got shorted
more than 15% of their order. I can't belive that, since every
one of them claims to be shorted at least 60%.
On a slightly different point, I understand that there were
to be 65 million Legends and that there were 200 million cards
in circulation before Legends. From what I've seen, Legends
did not increase the total supply of Magic cards by 33%. Where
did the rest go?
Here's a suggestion that I'm sure has been mentioned before.
*** Wizards, Please release an Unlimited version of Legends. ***
The market is obviously there. If 65 million Legends can sell
out nation-wide in 24 hours, you could obviously sell 200 million
of them in six months or so.
-- Bill
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <n8942821.772236416@honeydew>, <n894...@honeydew.cc.wwu.edu>
writes:
> A second printing would be a really bad idea in my opinion for a couple of
> reasons.
> o Penny pinchers like myself who prefer to trade (like WotC recommends) over
> trying to buy every single card, would bypass the first print run with the
> little money we do spend, because we can always get second printings
> cheaper. If a lot of people did this (and I am only saying they might),
> stores could get shafted on first print runs and be less likely to order
> them in the future.
Not at all. First, I don't know where you are getting your data
that cards from a second run could be bought cheaper. I'll bet
the packs would be the same price.
Second, the first print run would sell out just as fast as it
does now. Nobody wants to wait. Setting up and printing a
second run would take a couple more months. Who wants to
wait that long when all your friends have these neat new cards
and you don't?
> o I have no problem with the way things work now. There has never been
> a card I could not trade for, or a company somewhere that has a few
> cards left to sell. WotC has stated its plan and has stuck to it.
> The argument that every should be allowed to have all the cards is flawed.
> The odds of me being able to persuade anyone who thinks that way to think
> differently is minimal, just give it some thought, you may be able to
> see the light yourself.
Yes. I agree that some runs should be limited. But the Legends
run is essentially limited to ONE DAY'S worth of sales. I haven't
found a store yet that had Legends cards for more than 24 hours
without being sold out. I think that they should have printed
up enough for the cards to have remained on sale for at least
a month. Arabians was available for a month and people don't
complain much about it. So was Antiquities. But Legends
evaporated in less than a day. I guess the light I'm missing
was just a flash in the pan rather than a beacon.
> It all comes down to following the rules and risk.
> Certain rules govern the ordering process and distribution of Magic cards.
> Those rules are not going to change so as an individual or as part of a
> group, we must all learn to cope with these rules or get the f*ck out of
> this particular system and quit bitching. Rules of supply and demand would
> suggest that we manipulate this dynamic system with our money, not
> useless bellyaching. (Hey, I just bellyached, darn)
The rules of supply and demand you speak of are nothing like
the ones I learned in school. The way I learned them was that
if there is a large demand for a product, you increase the
supply to meet the demand. WotC has said they will not make
more cards just because people want them. That's not supply
and demand economics. It's called Communism when you give
the people part of what they want and then tell them to
"cope with the rules or get the f*ck out."
> Once again, if orders were higher at the predetermined time, then perhaps
> they would need another facility. As it is, they seem to be fulfilling
> all the cards ordered, and therefore do not.
Fine. They filled all the orders at that time. But what about
the orders coming in now? Nobody would get shafted if they
announced an Unlimited version of Legends and began to take
new orders. Supply and demand.
> You are offered a ONE_TIME_ONLY deal on some kind of product. It is made very
> clear to you that this will be ONE_TIME_ONLY and you have to order by a
> specific date. They are only making as much of this product as is ordered.
> You don't order the product and get mad when there isn't any left over.
> Or you order some of this product and then realize you should have ordered
> more. Is it the fault of the person making the offer or your fault that
> you are now unhappy with your situation.
Such a store owner would realize that he did not have enough copies
of the item and request more. After enough people requested more,
one of two things would happen. The product maker would make copies
of the original product (e.g., Artist Prints, White-bordered Magic
Cards, etc.). Or some other company would step in and make products
of similar nature. If this second option happens, the original
product maker will lose out on potential sales.
-- Bill
Charles Staley
: In article <2u7b4t$4...@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, <ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu> writes:
: And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
: shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
: Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
: be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
: Wizards, through Tom, tells us that no distributor got shorted
: more than 15% of their order. I can't belive that, since every
: one of them claims to be shorted at least 60%.
: On a slightly different point, I understand that there were
: to be 65 million Legends and that there were 200 million cards
: in circulation before Legends. From what I've seen, Legends
: did not increase the total supply of Magic cards by 33%. Where
: did the rest go?
There is a distributor in my area that on some of the Limited released
cards they stated that they had been "shorted" by Wizards of the Coast,
when in fact the staff actually procured those cards themselves and then
tried to blame Wizard's of the Coast for the shortage.....seems kind of
pathetic to me.......
Retailers and distributors are still trying to blame Wizard's of the
Coast for their own lack of self control and their own inability to be
able to predict how amazing fast these cards would sell as soon as they
hit the shelves. Everbody should be learning from these experiences and
not just griping about them constantly....Retailers should be ordering
more cards for the Dark release, and expecting other card products to
sell. If they don't then there is no one for them to blame but themselves.
Avatar
Charles Staley
: Yes. I agree that some runs should be limited. But the Legends
: run is essentially limited to ONE DAY'S worth of sales. I haven't
: found a store yet that had Legends cards for more than 24 hours
: without being sold out. I think that they should have printed
: up enough for the cards to have remained on sale for at least
: a month. Arabians was available for a month and people don't
: complain much about it. So was Antiquities. But Legends
: evaporated in less than a day. I guess the light I'm missing
: was just a flash in the pan rather than a beacon.
: The rules of supply and demand you speak of are nothing like
: the ones I learned in school. The way I learned them was that
: if there is a large demand for a product, you increase the
: supply to meet the demand. WotC has said they will not make
: more cards just because people want them. That's not supply
: and demand economics. It's called Communism when you give
: the people part of what they want and then tell them to
: "cope with the rules or get the f*ck out."
: Fine. They filled all the orders at that time. But what about
: the orders coming in now? Nobody would get shafted if they
: announced an Unlimited version of Legends and began to take
: new orders. Supply and demand.
: Such a store owner would realize that he did not have enough copies
: of the item and request more. After enough people requested more,
: one of two things would happen. The product maker would make copies
: of the original product (e.g., Artist Prints, White-bordered Magic
: Cards, etc.). Or some other company would step in and make products
: of similar nature. If this second option happens, the original
: product maker will lose out on potential sales
The fact still comes down that Wizards of the Coast does their printing
based on PREORDERS. The reason Arabians sat on shelves for a month is
that the game was not as well known at that time as it is now.
Distributor's closed guaranteed preorders for Legends around the time
that Arabians were finally disappearing. After having the product on the
shelf as long as it was caused retailers to order fewer cards.
Also note that many distributors continued taking orders for Legends
boosters after the Guaranteed point....they took speculative orders just
in case they had any extra....anyone who ordered during this time was not
GUARANTEED to get Legends, but many that did order during this time got
angered when they didn't get the cards they had ordered.
Perhaps of WotC was as large as TSR they could easily afford to print up
lots of extra cards just in case the demand was higher, but they ware not
that large and expecting them to work in that fashion is crazy. They
work as they can afford to, and perhaps as sales of their product
increase they could hope to change that course.
Perhaps people who did not get cards should stop abusing Wizard's of the
Coast and start abusing the individuals that did not order their cards
and instead wnet into a store and bought 3 of the 5 boxes of Legends
cards that the store had ordered to cover ALL demand. The only complaint
I really have is that our District Manager sent our store fewer boxes of
boosters than other stores in the chain, so we sold out in 24 hours. Of
course if we had received 20 boxes of Legends boosters we would have had
them for a few days.
It just seems that even the face of the fact that WotC claims to have not
shorted anyone by more than 15% (and that for violation of contract),
people still jump up and down and effective call the reps from WotC
liars, because the numbers they have from hearsay do not match the
numbers that Wizard's of the Coast claims are the facts.
Avatar
John A. Kilpatrick
|> There is a distributor in my area that on some of the Limited released
|> cards they stated that they had been "shorted" by Wizards of the Coast,
|> when in fact the staff actually procured those cards themselves and then
|> tried to blame Wizard's of the Coast for the shortage.....seems kind of
|> pathetic to me.......
|>
|> Retailers and distributors are still trying to blame Wizard's of the
|> Coast for their own lack of self control and their own inability to be
|> able to predict how amazing fast these cards would sell as soon as they
|> hit the shelves. Everbody should be learning from these experiences and
|> not just griping about them constantly....Retailers should be ordering
|> more cards for the Dark release, and expecting other card products to
|> sell. If they don't then there is no one for them to blame but themselves.
There is a store by me that I hadn't seen before. I went in and saw they had
legends and asked how much they were. They said the usual $5 and I asked why
and said that it's $2.45 on the box. And they said that they had ordered from
their distributor (200 boxes) and that they were shorted and only got 2.
When I pressed him, the little lyin' shit said "Well, we buy our cards from
another store in [nearby town]. And they were shorted and would only sell us
two boxes, at regular retail ($2.45)." He then went to misalign WotC about
how the system works. So I ripped into him. He said they didn't try and order
'til may and I pointed out that if they knew anything, they should know when the
pre-order cuttoff is. The guy said he wanted to contact WotC but didn't know
how. Right next to his hand on the counter was the pocket players guide. I
pointed out WotC's address (including email - the store guys are UC Davis
students and on the net) and he just did say anything.
Conclusion: Many many many stores screwed up in ordering Legends. They are
don't wanna look lame infront of YOU, the customer, so they rip on WotC. To me
that makes them lamer.
--
The above opinions belong strictly to me, and not to Hewlett-Packard and/or
Certified Personnel. That may be what's wrong with them.
All email to jaki...@engr.ucdavis.edu
PGP Public Key Available on Request
Peter M. White
>And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
>shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
>Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
>be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
For the record, I know one store that says they got *twice*
what they ordered. I think that distributor lucked out in
the Legends shuffle.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Peter M. White
>The thing is...>why< should orders be cut off so early? In this case, orders
>had to be in >five months< before they were released. It is this lag time
>that I personally consider to be the root of the problem. It means that
>everyone who hears about Legends between January 16 and June 12 (after
>preorders closed, before they were shipped) would have a very difficult time
>finding Legends. That's a long time...
I hear this over and over, and I think it is wrong. Someone correct me if
I am off here, but I believe 5 months is not a long time in the normal
retail world. I have a friend who used to work for, letmethink, Cost
Plus Imports in purchasing. She polished off her orders in June and
July for Christmas items.
If 5 months is the norm in the retail business for large orders, then
it is a bit brazen to fault WotC for standard business practices.
This does leave open the question of what they could have done at the
last minute to increase supply, and when was the last date they
could have changed production. I do not know. Does anyone out there
actually *know*, someone knowledgeable in printing or largescale game
production? I bet that most people working for WotC can't really
even answer this one. BTW, what you hear from your retailer who
has been bitching to distributor is often pretty unreliable stuff;
let's have some firsthand answers here, if any.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Aurik of Westhampton
demand of a product 6 months in advance? How can WotC expect retailers
to have an accurate prediction of how much they're going to sell 6 bloody
months in advance? That is the part that I see as being unreasonable.
As for lasting 24 hours, I haven't seen a place that had legends last more
than _2_ hours. They sold out _that_ quickly in Champaign. In any case,
I think WotC should not shoot themselves in the foot by asking for
guaranteed preorder dates so far in advance -- after all, they're just
giving players reason to buy competitors' products. (After all, isn't
TSR coming out with a very similar card game in the next couple weeks)?
--
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Kenneth Platz Aurik the Bold | He who indulges in sensuous pleasures |
| kjp4...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | with luscious women may not be morally |
| Au...@uiuc.edu | correct, but he can have a lot more fun|+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
Rob Vines
>bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov writes:
Yeah...and they STILL sold out in less than three hours. Of course,
they got their shipment in on Thursday, after all the other shops in the
area had sold out, and I guess they also had a bunch of other dealers
buying their stock.
--
Rob Vines
r-v...@uiuc.edu
"...he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet
copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'." -- Terry Pratchett
Nathan Engle
>pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
>>they should make a 2nd run of the
>>Expansions that are like the "unlimited" batch where people can get the
>>cards. It does not make the Expansions any less expensive or worthwhile
>>for those who got them when they came out, mainly because they are not the
>>limited Print Black Borders. Therefore, still retaining their
>>collectability while the White Borders keep the gamers happy.
Hear, hear.
>A second printing would be a really bad idea in my opinion for a couple of
>reasons.
>o Penny pinchers like myself who prefer to trade (like WotC recommends) over
> trying to buy every single card, would bypass the first print run with the
> little money we do spend, because we can always get second printings
> cheaper.
You mean like the way that rare white bordered RV Dragon Engines are
cheaper than common black bordered AQ ones?
> If a lot of people did this (and I am only saying they might),
> stores could get shafted on first print runs and be less likely to order
> them in the future.
I suppose that's a remote possibility, but it seems to assume that
collectors would be willing to settle for white bordered sets instead of black
ones, and it also assumes that gamers will passively sit aside and ignore the
new cards after they've shown up in their friends' decks. From past experience
I'm afraid that I don't see much to support that line of reasoning.
>o I have no problem with the way things work now. There has never been
> a card I could not trade for, or a company somewhere that has a few
> cards left to sell.
It sounds to me like you've shifted gears. One paragraph ago you were a
penny pincher, and now you're saying you've got enough resources to find
anything you want. If you really have the trading stock to get stuff like
Moxes and Black Lotuses and Gauntlets of Might, then I guess I can see why you
like things the way they are.
> WotC has stated its plan and has stuck to it.
You say that as though it's a good thing to dogmatically adhere to a plan
even after its flaws have come to light.
> The argument that every should be allowed to have all the cards is flawed.
That's true. Yet I haven't heard ANYONE make that argument; it certainly
isn't my position. I don't have every Legend card nor do I really want to have
them all. I don't own every one of any other set, so why should Legends be
different? My argument is not that everyone should be allowed to have all of
the cards but rather that an additional white bordered print run would help
the real penny pinching gamers (the ones who can't afford Black Lotuses but
who would love to have another 30 cards to add to their set).
> The odds of me being able to persuade anyone who thinks that way to think
> differently is minimal, just give it some thought, you may be able to
> see the light yourself.
Ok, I've given it some thought, but my conclusion is that your
indifference is probably due to the fact that your ass is covered. It's the
rest of the folks whose butts are hanging out in the breeze who interest me
now.
>It all comes down to following the rules and risk.
> Certain rules govern the ordering process and distribution of Magic cards.
Yes, but if enough people yell about the goofiness of the current rules
those rules might just change.
> Those rules are not going to change
Maybe not. That depends on whether WotC feels that their feet are being
held to a fire, or maybe that they're missing out on a big pile of easy
revenue. If they thought that this business was going to hurt their future
marketshare then they might just come out with a white-bordered set. It HAS
happened before...
> so as an individual or as part of a
> group, we must all learn to cope with these rules or get the f*ck out of
> this particular system and quit bitching.
I see. "Love it or Leave it." Now there's a classic American Idea for
you.
> Rules of supply and demand would
> suggest that we manipulate this dynamic system with our money, not
> useless bellyaching. (Hey, I just bellyached, darn)
I'm curious. What was the economic manipulation that caused WotC to
produce the Revised Edition? Did people bribe them, or did the Wizards just
listen to their customers' complaints?
>Risk is inherent in this commercial system we love so much. Placing the
>blame on WotC for not producing enough cards, or saying that they should
>produce more, simply means you want them to accept a larger risk, perhaps
>a risk that you cannot perceive.
In my opinion an open-ended white-border print run would result in a
smaller risk, not a larger one. White bordered cards could be printed in
multiple, smaller, reasonably-scaled runs, and then augmented with additional
printings if/when additional demand comes to light. That way WotC could be
assured of not producing more than they could sell, and distributors and store
owners could be assured of something like a reasonable ongoing access to the
product so that they'd have more time to judge the level of consumer interest.
I'm not interested in pointing fingers at anyone - not WotC, nor their
distributors, or casual players. I wouldn't even give a damn about
speculators if it weren't for the gouging that has already begun. What I
would prefer to see is an evolution of the design concept of limited expansion
sets (very much along the lines of the progression that has already occurred
in the move from black borders -> UL -> RV in the regular Gathering card set).
If there was a reasonable prospect for access to white bordered runs in
the future then there might be considerably less moaning from people like me
in the present.
> It would be just as easy to blame stores
>for not knowing that six months after the ordering date, that their Magic
>consumers would triple (or more or whatever).
Yes, it's really easy to point fingers. It seems to be really easy for a
lot of people to point their fingers at casual gamers with $15/month gaming
budgets - "It's their fault that they didn't order boxes in bulk months in
advance..." Personally I think it's just as ridiculous to do that as it is to
blame stores or WotC.
The main reason I think that WotC holds the prominent role in this
argument is that they're the only ones who have the power to address the
limited supply issue that lies at the heart of all of these complaints. Maybe
if they'd never come out with RV people wouldn't have such high hopes that the
Legends supply situation could be similarly resolved.
> One might just as well plead
>with stores to order more cards so that WotC would print enough (enough
>being subjective of course). Of course your local shopkeeper knows that if
>she (or he) orders a huge amount of cards and the anticipated demand does
>not materialize, she (or he) is screwed.
Correct. With limited print runs Wizards creates a scenario in which risk
is particularly high and production is 100% guaranteed to fall short of
demand. IMO WotC has no business expecting distributors, shopkeepers, or
gamers to foot a venture capital bill for that one-shot "all-or-nothing"
production style.
> Of course you'd be happy because
>there would be a glut of cards and you could buy at will. So blame WotC for
>not printing enough cards or the stores for not ordering enough, but either
>way you seem to be stating that you want either one or both sides of this
>equation to do things they have stated here on the Net that they are
>uncomfortable doing for sole purpose that you don't like the system.
Hey, I understand completely why WotC doesn't want to accept the financial
risk of over-production of a limited run set. I can also understand why
distributors and shop owners would be reluctant to stick out their necks on a
gamble like that. What I cannot understand however, is why WotC feels that
the reasons for the transition from limited to white-bordered Gathering print
runs are any different than the reasons for calls for a transition from
limited to white-bordered expansion sets.
>In sum, I really think the problem with a lot of these complaints is just
>not understanding how things work, or the belief that changing them will
>make things better without knowing all the details.
Yeah, I admit that I don't know every detail of WotC's production process.
I DO know, however, that a black border to white border transition occurred in
the basic Gathering set. I also know that the transition greatly improved the
availability of basic cards while the value of limited editions continues to
rise.
>In our situation, I would blame the store for not ordering more knowing that
>this was a one-time deal and well aware of my own desire for these special
>treats. You would blame them for only producing these luscious things only
>once, and then only as many as people said they wanted!
Maybe. I guess that more than anything else I'm just puzzled about why
WotC would turn their backs on a sure-fire cash-cow like white bordered
expansions or Collector's Edition versions of those sets. IMO they're missing
out on a heaping hunk of steaming sales revenues, and in the process their
distribution channels are being hosed by gougers and gluttons leaving
their "low-end" customers out to dry.
--
Nathan Engle Electron Juggler
Indiana University Dept of Psychology
nen...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
"Vae Victis"
Lisa Richardson
> Maybe. I guess that more than anything else I'm just puzzled about why
>WotC would turn their backs on a sure-fire cash-cow like white bordered
>expansions or Collector's Edition versions of those sets. IMO they're missing
>out on a heaping hunk of steaming sales revenues, and in the process their
>distribution channels are being hosed by gougers and gluttons leaving
>their "low-end" customers out to dry.
Probably because there is only one or two voices actually putting effort to
addressing the idea, unfortunately, one voice is getting squealched because
of his/her voicing of it over and over again.
I'm sure WotC would be more than willing to keep going with this, but with
there Netrunner and Jyhad game coming up as well... Magic is going to get
run into the ground and what we see now is going to be the last gasp of
Magic. Just watch how quickly bids for Revised Edition Magic gets sold
when it putters down when Jyhad and Netrunner comes out.
Me... I hope to get some TNG Cards when that game gets going... Just for
change and hopefully away from this merry-go-round.
Tom Wylie
>And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
>shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
>Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
>be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
-> Wizards of the Coast did not run around shorting people. *Only* people
who broke contract by releasing Antiquities and such early were shorted.
Only one of those people was even shorted 15%; the others were all shorted
5% or 10%. All Legends held back from those distributors were given to
distributors who *can* follow the rules. Wizards of the Coast didn't short
anyone 60% to 90% of whatever their preorder was on January 15th.
If a distributor had 100 boxes on order as of the 15th and tried to add
another 200 boxes later on, then yes, technically, they only got a third
of what they ordered. But since two thirds of that was ordered after the
cutoff date, the distributor should not have expected to ever see that
order; WotC didn't short them, rather they were just living a pipe dream.
>Wizards, through Tom, tells us that no distributor got shorted
>more than 15% of their order. I can't belive that, since every
>one of them claims to be shorted at least 60%.
If they were shorted, it wasn't by Wizards of the Coast.
>On a slightly different point, I understand that there were
>to be 65 million Legends and that there were 200 million cards
>in circulation before Legends. From what I've seen, Legends
>did not increase the total supply of Magic cards by 33%. Where
>did the rest go?
I have no idea what you're asking.
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Jesse Fuchs
: <bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov> wrote:
: >And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
: >shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
: >Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
: >be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
: -> Wizards of the Coast did not run around shorting people. *Only* people
: who broke contract by releasing Antiquities and such early were shorted.
: Only one of those people was even shorted 15%; the others were all shorted
: 5% or 10%. All Legends held back from those distributors were given to
: distributors who *can* follow the rules. Wizards of the Coast didn't short
: anyone 60% to 90% of whatever their preorder was on January 15th.
: If a distributor had 100 boxes on order as of the 15th and tried to add
: another 200 boxes later on, then yes, technically, they only got a third
: of what they ordered. But since two thirds of that was ordered after the
: cutoff date, the distributor should not have expected to ever see that
: order; WotC didn't short them, rather they were just living a pipe dream.
Just to note, none of the stores around me got shorted - in fact, they
all got _more_ boxes than they had anticipated. This may have something to do
with the fact that they pre-ordered when they were supposed to...
-jesse
: >Wizards, through Tom, tells us that no distributor got shorted
Jesse Fuchs
: In <nate.2819...@psythird.psych.indiana.edu> na...@psythird.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes:
: > Maybe. I guess that more than anything else I'm just puzzled about why
: >WotC would turn their backs on a sure-fire cash-cow like white bordered
: >expansions or Collector's Edition versions of those sets. IMO they're missing
: >out on a heaping hunk of steaming sales revenues, and in the process their
: >distribution channels are being hosed by gougers and gluttons leaving
: >their "low-end" customers out to dry.
: Probably because there is only one or two voices actually putting effort to
: addressing the idea, unfortunately, one voice is getting squealched because
: of his/her voicing of it over and over again.
: I'm sure WotC would be more than willing to keep going with this, but with
: there Netrunner and Jyhad game coming up as well... Magic is going to get
: run into the ground and what we see now is going to be the last gasp of
: Magic. Just watch how quickly bids for Revised Edition Magic gets sold
: when it putters down when Jyhad and Netrunner comes out.
Uh, no.
The new games that come out might be better than Magic. (Can't wait
for the Sim City one, myself, or Jyhad.) They might be cheaper. They might,
as Spellfire promises, have _more_ rare cards (Don't think, just accept it.)
However, this does not change anything. Is there anyone in the world
who actually thinks Dungeons and Dragons is the best role-playing system out
there? Maybe, but they are sad, deluded people who wouldn't know a shaving
device if it bit them in the tuckus. Yet, D & D still persists. It's the
best-selling role-playing game since before I was born. Why?
'Cause it was first, that's why. It's the standard, the vanilla, the
BASIC, the Wilford Brimley, the goat tongue, the...sorry, lost my train of
thought. Everyone still plays D&D. _I_ still (shudder) occassionally play
D&D - because it's the one system that I know everyone is familiar with. It's
the one that _everyone_ who plays role-playing games has played. It's got more
stuff than any other game - you can't throw a frickin' brick without hitting
a D&D supplement.
I suspect that Magic will not look nearly as lame next to the other
card games as D&D does next to other role-playing games - I mean, despite
all the problems and rules questions, it is, above all, a brilliantly
designed game. Even if it does though, folks, don't worry - it'll still
remain the standard. People will keep playing Magic because they know they'll
find other people who play Magic - in a genre in which everyone must own
their own playing pieces, this is a major factor. What's the use of buying
into Spellfire, even if the "Lands of Dragonlance (woo-hoo!)" supplement
is doled out by federal law to every man, woman, and child?
Don't get me wrong - I'm really looking forward to the other games, and
I'm not a hoarder - this post isn't driven out of fear that the prices of
my precious cards are going to drop. In fact, I'd be happy to see it - more
cool cards for me. But as cool as some of these other games may be, I have
to say to Lisa: remember, history _always_ repeats itself.
-jesse
: Me... I hope to get some TNG Cards when that game gets going... Just for
Mark Hughes
not have an opportunity to buy any, as they were sold out in twenty
minutes while I was at work. If this game becomes a game of employment
status and relationship to hobby shop employees, I will be giving up
on it soon.
Mark
Jeremy C. Jack
>
>>The thing is...>why< should orders be cut off so early? In this case, orders
>>had to be in >five months< before they were released. It is this lag time
>>that I personally consider to be the root of the problem. It means that
>>everyone who hears about Legends between January 16 and June 12 (after
>>preorders closed, before they were shipped) would have a very difficult time
>>finding Legends. That's a long time...
This argument is LAUGHABLE. Carta Mundi took something like three
months to PRINT the damn things. The option to simply keep pressing
them and short all concept of production standards is LUDICROUS.
Preproduction work and shipping info gave them something like a month
tops of time to get the PO's together and send them to the printer to
let them know how much to ship. You people are whiners and have not a
single clue about real world business between the lot of you.
- Jeremy C. Jack
No, I'm not a business major. But I play one on TV.
k08...@hobbes.kzoo.edu
Peter M. White
I am afraid you might be out of luck. But if you poke around town
and keep your ears tuned to this group, you should be able to
guarantee this does not happen in the future. If your interest
is casual playing, I expect the hoarders will start unloading cards
such that a handful of boosters will not be too dear. If you want
a collection, you nedd be more resourceful, one way or another.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Dave Howell
>>The thing is...>why< should orders be cut off so early? In this case, orders
>>had to be in >five months< before they were released. It is this lag time
>I hear this over and over, and I think it is wrong. Someone correct me if
>I am off here, but I believe 5 months is not a long time in the normal
>retail world. I have a friend who used to work for, letmethink, Cost
It's on the shortish end. Toy stores are placing most of their Christmas
orders in February. In book publishing, it's out of the author's hands
over a year before publication, at the least.
>Plus Imports in purchasing. She polished off her orders in June and
>July for Christmas items.
>If 5 months is the norm in the retail business for large orders, then
>it is a bit brazen to fault WotC for standard business practices.
Actually, the comics trade has a lot to do with this. At first, we were
running about a 2-3 month schedule. However, a lot of stores were comics
stores, and the comics distributors are told of a title, put it in their
catalog, take orders, then place orders with the manufacturer. By the
time this long cycle could occur, the limited print run was long closed,
and about to ship. So we extended our schedule.
>This does leave open the question of what they could have done at the
>last minute to increase supply, and when was the last date they
>could have changed production. I do not know. Does anyone out there
>actually *know*, someone knowledgeable in printing or largescale game
>production? I bet that most people working for WotC can't really
>even answer this one.
We're airfreighting from Belgium. It's expensive (instead of ship), but
it only takes a week instead of 3-6 weeks. It takes 4 days to clear
customs, it takes 10 days to ship to distributors, it takes 1-3 days to
get from a distributor to a retailer. 2 weeks, counting backwards. It
will take 2-3 weeks to package 30-60 million cards. All the cards are
printed before they're packaged: another week. *All* the packaging must
be printed before the cards!!!! Two more weeks, minimum, to have the
boxes and flowpack material prepared. About two months, now, assuming
absolutely no delays. They have to order paper, something else that must
be taken care of before they can print. In the real world, it's closer to
three months. That's when we set the print run.
>BTW, what you hear from your retailer who
>has been bitching to distributor is often pretty unreliable stuff;
>let's have some firsthand answers here, if any.
To make things worse, we had a *terrible* time getting Legends ready. I
mean, it's huge, and we were scrambling to get it out. We didn't have it
ready to ship quite on time, and in the meantime, we were screaming at
Carta Mundi to make more Gathering cards. More more more! As a result, we
orginally where hoping to sell Legends in late April. If we'd released it
then, there would have been far fewer of you, and the shortage wouldn't
have seemed nearly so bad.
And no, we can't change the press run on the Dark. They're already being
printed. The only thing right now that's open (I *think*) is the November
expansion, and are you prepared to predict what Magic will be like then?
Should your local retailer double? triple? quadruple her order? Will Magic
have faded by then? Will Spellfire and all those other games have cut back
on the popularity of this one? If Fallen Empires (tentative!!!) is as much
bigger than Legends than Legends was over Antiquities (and they were just
a couple months apart), then retailers will have to order 6-8 times as
many cards. Instead of 40 boxes, that'd be 320 boxes. Retail value:
$30,000. If they overorder, they might have $5,000 -- $10,000 tied up in
inventory. It's not a high-profit biz: those numbers could easily sink
your local comic dealer.
At our end, overprinting a mere 20% represents about a million dollars
that we're being asked to risk. We're often accused of greed. Well,
overprinting so that we might be able sell even more later, at the risk
of shooting the corporation in the head; now, that's greed. And we're not
greedy. We're here to publish cool games so that we and a lot of other
people can have fun. That means sticking around. If we were greedy, we'd
have killed the role-playing dept. a long time ago, since that time would
be more profitably spent making new deckmaster games.
Saaay, there's quite a view from up here! Think I'll get down off this
soapbox before I get a nosebleed.
Dave "Snark" Howell sn...@wizards.com
Cyberspace Liaison lia...@wizards.com
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
> Perhaps of WotC was as large as TSR they could easily afford to print up
> lots of extra cards just in case the demand was higher, but they ware not
> that large and expecting them to work in that fashion is crazy. They
> work as they can afford to, and perhaps as sales of their product
> increase they could hope to change that course.
Great. Now that WotC has seen that the demand far outstrips the supply,
they can simply ask stores how many Unlimited Legends they would like
to preorder. Then, they make a White-Bordered run to accomodate that
demand. Then, they ask again and again until there is no demand for
them. WotC would NEVER be out any cash and could compete with TSR.
It's really very simple and everybody makes money.
-- Bill
Lisa Richardson
>Saaay, there's quite a view from up here! Think I'll get down off this
>soapbox before I get a nosebleed.
Not a good thing to say, Dave... Because now you make it sound like you
are high and mighty. Yes, while printing extras is a risk, given your
current demand for cards, it is WORTH taking a risk.
I just might Pre-order a Box of Dark and just sit on it... Wait a few
monthes and then sell it on here. Yes, this is not something you like to
see, but so far... You will have that happen at a slightly larger scale.
Lisa Richardson
up, Jesse... And there have been a few popping up.
Lisa Richardson
If what one person, who is a retailer, says is true... More than likely,
no way. It would be a good idea to give up trying to get expansion sets
unless you don't care about getting just the stuff you ordered in time or
get what they are willing to give to you. Mainly because you might not get
a chance of getting stuff you are looking for if you are not upto date.
If you want a SIMILAR card game, wait until Spellfire or TNG or some of the
clones come out... You will at least have a better chance.
Isaac McCroskey
>History only repeats if one does not heed the warning signs that people put
>up, Jesse... And there have been a few popping up.
I believe that History only teaches that people abuse History, myself.
Isaac McCroskey
>In <2uashg$p...@fungusaur.wizards.com> sn...@fungusaur.wizards.com (Dave Howell) writes:
>>Saaay, there's quite a view from up here! Think I'll get down off this
>>soapbox before I get a nosebleed.
>Not a good thing to say, Dave... Because now you make it sound like you
>are high and mighty. Yes, while printing extras is a risk, given your
>current demand for cards, it is WORTH taking a risk.
Still not getting that whole perspective of the few vocal consumers
versus reality thing yet.
>I just might Pre-order a Box of Dark and just sit on it... Wait a few
>monthes and then sell it on here. Yes, this is not something you like to
>see, but so far... You will have that happen at a slightly larger scale.
As a consumer you may still be able to do this with stores that pre-ordered
properly, but if you represent a store it's really too late to do this. I
am not too sure, but I think that was actually his point. This larger
scale thing has been happening since Arabians, I'm sure he's used to seeing
it. Of course I really can't speak for Dave, just a general impression.
Isaac McCroskey
>In <2uahrc$am4$2...@heifetz.msen.com> mhu...@garnet.msen.com (Mark Hughes) writes:
>>Is it true that there will not be a second printing of Legends? I did
>>not have an opportunity to buy any, as they were sold out in twenty
>>minutes while I was at work. If this game becomes a game of employment
>>status and relationship to hobby shop employees, I will be giving up
>>on it soon.
>If what one person, who is a retailer, says is true... More than likely,
>no way. It would be a good idea to give up trying to get expansion sets
>unless you don't care about getting just the stuff you ordered in time or
>get what they are willing to give to you. Mainly because you might not get
>a chance of getting stuff you are looking for if you are not upto date.
>If you want a SIMILAR card game, wait until Spellfire or TNG or some of the
>clones come out... You will at least have a better chance.
Spellfire, of course, being a limited run as well. Also, I tried it out and
MAN is it bad. If you'd like to play a Magic ripoff, I don't think Spellfire
is the way to go. Also, you want to take what retailers might say into the
proper perspective. If the company that produces the product is saying that
there is nothing they can do to reprint the expansion because they are now
producing other cards, for a retailer to say that 'More than likely, no way'
really doesn't mean that much. It's probably less frustrating if you just
listen to the company so you won't be surprised way down the line when
someone who is basically a salesman starts saying there's a slim chance
the company won't do what it has been saying it will do and getting
disappointed they didn't tell you differently than the company.
If you really want expansions, consider pre-ordering them. It may too late
for The Dark, but from what I understand The Dark will be arriving in a
couple of shipments so will be easier to get a hold of. Also, read postings
on here. I have seen Legends boxes for less than retail. If you think you
simply can't get them you aren't paying attention. I don't know about
individual boosters which may fit your budget better.
Roy Roberts
>In <2uashg$p...@fungusaur.wizards.com> sn...@fungusaur.wizards.com (Dave Howell) writes:
>
>>Saaay, there's quite a view from up here! Think I'll get down off this
>>soapbox before I get a nosebleed.
>
>Not a good thing to say, Dave... Because now you make it sound like you
>are high and mighty. Yes, while printing extras is a risk, given your
>current demand for cards, it is WORTH taking a risk.
company on the gamble that this game will be this popular 4-5 months down the
line? WotC is not a big company, and taking big chances is not wise for them.
BTW, if YOU are so sure about this, go sink your life savings and as much cash
as you can beg/borrow/steal, and put in a massive order of whatever expansion
is being ordered now, due out in about November. Then, when there is a big
shortage, you'll reap big profits.
"But, by then the demand might not be as big, and there will be plenty of
cards for everyone."
Exactly what might have happened in the case of Legends. The demand might
not have increased so much, and WotC might have been stuck with several million
dollars worth of cards that no one wants. Companies go down for reasons like
this. Better to take an almost guaranteed profit than to try for the big bucks
with a chance of losing the whole company.
Hindsight is 20/20. Foresight, well.....
(Btw, I have to say, I am lucky enough to live near a gaming shop that
bought a veritable SHITLOAD of Legends. Sold over 200 boxes in first week,
I would estimate, and still has more)
Neuro
Kevin Stelzer
>In <2uashg$p...@fungusaur.wizards.com> sn...@fungusaur.wizards.com (Dave Howell) writes:
>I just might Pre-order a Box of Dark and just sit on it... Wait a few
>monthes and then sell it on here. Yes, this is not something you like to
>see, but so far... You will have that happen at a slightly larger scale.
Gee now there's some thinking! Too bad everyone else and their grandmothers
also got this bright idea. The market will be flooded with the Dark. I
doubt anyone will have a hard time getting all of the Dark that they need,
and I doubt anyone would pay any more for the dark (especially after you sit
on it).
Nathan Engle
>The only thing right now that's open (I *think*) is the November
>expansion, and are you prepared to predict what Magic will be like then?
No. Personally I don't see how anybody could be reasonably expected to
make such a prediction. Yet by retaining the mechanics of limited print runs
WotC seems to be demanding that consumers and retailers should make those
predictions anyway, and if we guess wrong then too bad.
And the most laughable thing of all (at least to me) is that the Wizards
can actually find people *anxious* to place pre-orders and send pre-payments,
and (the icing on the cake) those people have somehow become convinced that
they're acting in a prudent and intelligent fashion. Truth stranger than
fiction?
>Should your local retailer double? triple? quadruple her order? Will Magic
>have faded by then? Will Spellfire and all those other games have cut back
>on the popularity of this one? If Fallen Empires (tentative!!!) is as much
>bigger than Legends than Legends was over Antiquities (and they were just
>a couple months apart), then retailers will have to order 6-8 times as
>many cards. Instead of 40 boxes, that'd be 320 boxes. Retail value:
>$30,000. If they overorder, they might have $5,000 -- $10,000 tied up in
>inventory. It's not a high-profit biz: those numbers could easily sink
>your local comic dealer.
Yep, grim consequences - and the outlook for "private" speculators isn't
much better. One thing that they say over and over that I totally agree with
is that they're taking a risk in placing long lead-time pre-orders. I suppose
that does entitle them to reap their profits while they can, but in the long
term I could get really tired of being asked to reward those guys for playing
Russian Roulette with MtG pre-orders.
>At our end, overprinting a mere 20% represents about a million dollars
>that we're being asked to risk. We're often accused of greed. Well,
>overprinting so that we might be able sell even more later, at the risk
>of shooting the corporation in the head; now, that's greed.
I don't think that you should over-print now. What I *do* think is that
it's unwise to simply close the door to the idea of additional, incremental
printings of white-bordered cards at some future date.
Peter M. White
>In <2uashg$p...@fungusaur.wizards.com> sn...@fungusaur.wizards.com (Dave Howell) writes:
>>Saaay, there's quite a view from up here! Think I'll get down off this
>>soapbox before I get a nosebleed.
>Not a good thing to say, Dave... Because now you make it sound like you
>are high and mighty. Yes, while printing extras is a risk, given your
>current demand for cards, it is WORTH taking a risk.
Oh, puh-leeeeeez! If you want to mistake normal Snark gentle sarcasm for
a high and mighty attitude, you have probably been viewing the world
through your own Uppity-Colored Glasses too long. It may be worth taking
the risk *now*, but was it worth gambling the company's current good health
3-4 months ago? That's a tough call, and I mention say it again: WotC
seems to be following more or less standard business practices. When
you manage to throw together a company with something like $10 million
in sales (my own rough estimate), maybe you can teach them a thing or
two by being reckless.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Jesse Fuchs
Legends cards WILL be reprinted.
Yes, just like Arabian Nights and Antiquities, the best cards from
Legends will be added to the standard set. The expansions, folks, are for
collectors and gaming junkies...remember? That's why they only sell the basic
version at places like Waldenbooks (at least, where I am.)
You don't need the expansions to enjoy playing this - I bought my
parents two packs of commons that the local store made up (far cheaper, I might
add, than the weasels on the net do,) and a booster pack each, and they're
having a grand ol' time. Next month, I'm going to buy them each another booster
pack to keep things interesting. If you're a junkie (like me) who has to have
a buttload of every expansion that comes out, then yes, you should pre-order,
and if you didn't, sorry. The only people I feel sorry for are those who just
wanted six booster packs or whatever and couldn't get any - however, things are
bad, but I don't think they are so bad that many people didn't get _any_
Legends. If so, instead of yelling at WotC about not doing handstands on
the tightwire of Future Sales, talk to your local store about rationing. The
store near me only sold six packs a day to each person - all the local high
school kids here didn't get massive amounts of Legends, but they each got
90 cards, which, you know, ain't all that bad.
Also, remember that Legends isn't the be all and end all. This game
has been out less than a year, and we've already had three expansions, one
of them enormous. If you missed them, wait a few months, and get the Dark. Then
wait a few more months, and get Fallen Empires. Then wait five years, and get
Legions of Larry, or whatever the hell they've come up with next. You need
Legends about as much as you need the original version of Dieties and Demigods
- both swell things to have, but in the long run, not the alpha and omega.
Finally, I'm curious about the signs that Magic is about to eat dirt.
I haven't seen any - it's still spreading like wildfire here. Not to mention
the fact that much of the world market hasn't yet been tapped (no pun
intended) - I may be going
to Japan next year just for this purpose (yay! good sushi!!) And hey, as I
said, if it does die - more cards for me.
-jesse
Lisa Richardson
>pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
Five to one will get you that people would buy some Dark Expansions higher
than Retail when Dark is no longer sold. There are some Legend Box Holders
who are not selling below Retail, and are sitting on them, waiting. It has
happen before, and WotC has not made an effort to stop it.
Lisa Richardson
>pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
Try reading the post, Peter. I said 'make it sound like'. I did not say
he was high and mighty. Also, be aware that a few monthes ago, back when I
was complaining about the speed of the expansions coming out, WotC
statement was "People wanted more cards." Given people wanted more cards,
I think it is obvious that people are going to buy a lot.
Also, 310 cards... A little more than the original set, and people are
trying to make sets. 1 Guy who got 4 boxes and only about a 1/3 of his
collection while others had 2 boxes and got 4/5s of their collection. The
reason why Arabian Nights did not sell so fast was because there was only
about 80 cards in that expansion set, therefore you did not need to buy
loads to finish off one set. Antiquities had the really funky rarity and
duplication that it took 1 or 2 boxes and a lot of trading to complete
another set that was around 70 to 100 cards. Yes, there were some left,
but mainly because of duplication and the weird rarity.
Now, with Legends, we go back to the core system of trying to get it...
Buy lots and take what you need. Then the big cry for more cards gets sent
out, but people learned that they need to be specific this time, so people
ask for more Legends.
More than likely, they will not get it at all.
Thomas Doehne
Actually, it seems to be turning into a game of *being* a
hobby shop employee. The largest hoarders I know of locally
are all hobby shop employees (one's sitting on 23 display
boxes).
When a store tells me it got shorted by the distributor, and then
I find out that their employees have a hoard of cards, it's time
to find another place to shop.
I'd like to see another printing of Legends, so that the
ordinary players can get cards. It'd also be nice if the
future expansions get shipped in a few waves, rather than
once, so that people who can't hover around the game
stores have a chance to buy them.
--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu
Charles Staley
about in life is that you "didn't get Legends cards", you should consider
youself lucky and Get a Grip!! This is a game after all. New players
are starting every day, and those new players will never have had a
chance to buy any of the preceeding Limited editions. These people have
learned to start trading cards to obtain some of these other cards. With
the logic that is spouting through this thread, WotC should also reprint
all of the Limited Release sets again and again, just in case somebody
missed out that started playing after they were all gone.
Those distributors that were shorted (that then lost some more boxes to
staff members) had to pass on their own shortages to Retailers. Wizards
of the Coast can not be blamed for all of the steps between their release
of a product and it eventually reaching the hands of the consumer.
I was able to collect a full boxes worth of boosters for Legends, and I
am happy to have a few new cards....If I hadn't gotten any, I would have
said "Oh Well" and tried to trade for a few. After Arabians were gone I
had about half of the Arabian set....after 1 and a half months both
locally and on the net I have been able to complete my Arabians
collection.
It all comes down to: if you don't get to buy any trade for some...If
you're too stingy to give away any of your cards for new ones, that's
your problem.......I have had no problems getting whatever I have been
looking for on trades.....Look and ye shall fine, because cards have
different values depending on who you are talking to.....
As I said before Get a Grip it is JUST a game.......
Avatar
Kevin Stelzer
>Five to one will get you that people would buy some Dark Expansions higher
>than Retail when Dark is no longer sold. There are some Legend Box Holders
>who are not selling below Retail, and are sitting on them, waiting. It has
>happen before, and WotC has not made an effort to stop it.
Five to one huh? I'll take those odds! I can't believe you are comparing
the Dark to Legends. Let's compare... The Dark is 1/3 the size of Legends.
To order Legends most shops had to pre order back when MTG might not have
been as popular in the area. A local comic store got something like 28
boxes of legends, but pre ordered before the MtG craze hit our area. Now
they are ordering >100 boxes of the Dark and are already selling boses for
$60.00. At least around here the market will be flooded with the dark they
will be as worthless as the revised booster packs are to collectors.
I don't see why people are complaining about WOTC not doing anything about
stores who mark up the prices. If you want to complain, complain about the
store but not WOTC. What the hell can WOTC do to stop it? Nothing. Gee I
know a store that is selling a Spiderman comic for $300.00 but the cover
says $0.10 I sure wish Marvel would stop sending comics to that store!!!
Now this all might be different if WOTC cuts back on the number of dark they
send to distributors like an earlier post said..but who knows?
Rob Vines
>The
>reason why Arabian Nights did not sell so fast was because there was only
>about 80 cards in that expansion set, therefore you did not need to buy
>loads to finish off one set. Antiquities had the really funky rarity and
>duplication that it took 1 or 2 boxes and a lot of trading to complete
>another set that was around 70 to 100 cards. Yes, there were some left,
>but mainly because of duplication and the weird rarity.
This is why I think that the Legends feeding frenzy was a 1-time event.
Go find a friend who bought crateloads of Legends and ask her how many
boxes of Dark they're buying. Unless they're trying to make a long-
term profit, I'd be very surprised if they've ordered more than one
box. MAYBE two. I imagine that Dark's distribution will be very much
like AN and AQ's, and that all these demands that WotC change their
distribution system will be premature. And hey, with a little luck,
there will be so many cards out there that the speculators will have
to sell their cashe of Dark cards at cost. Wouldn't that be nice for
a change?
I do, of course, reserve the right to change my stance if Dark vanishes
instantly. Unless that happens, though, I don't think the system needs
a major overhaul.
--
Rob Vines
r-v...@uiuc.edu
"...he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet
copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'." -- Terry Pratchett
Rob Vines
>It'd also be nice if the
>future expansions get shipped in a few waves, rather than
>once, so that people who can't hover around the game
>stores have a chance to buy them.
I'll agree with that; I thought the multiple waves of Antiquities distributions
was a good idea. The first wave vanished instantly, but the next waves
lingered for a good long time, because the power buyers had already
picked up their boxes. Anybody know the distribution strategy for Dark?
Cedric Chin
|> bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov wrote:
|>
|> Perhaps of WotC was as large as TSR they could easily afford to print up
|> lots of extra cards just in case the demand was higher, but they ware not
|> that large and expecting them to work in that fashion is crazy. They
|> work as they can afford to, and perhaps as sales of their product
|> increase they could hope to change that course.
We're NOT asking WotC to print up extra cards in a print run. We're
asking for ANOTHER print run, now that retailers have a better idea
about how many boxes to order (and us newbies know to pre-order).
Cedric.
Cedric Chin
|> ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu (Andrew Brecher) writes:
|>
|> I hear this over and over, and I think it is wrong. Someone correct me if
|> I am off here, but I believe 5 months is not a long time in the normal
|> retail world. I have a friend who used to work for, letmethink, Cost
|> July for Christmas items.
You're comparing apples with oranges. The market for Magic cards is growing
MUCH faster than plastic trees and da*n felt elves.
Cedric.
Cedric Chin
|> But isn't the crux of the matter that nobody can accurately predict the
|> demand of a product 6 months in advance?
No, it is not. A second printing will also require pre-orders, etc.
|> How can WotC expect retailers
|> to have an accurate prediction of how much they're going to sell 6 bloody
|> months in advance?
How about by bloody looking at how bloody fast their bloody initial Legends
order bloody sold bloody bloody bloody?
|> In any case,
|> I think WotC should not shoot themselves in the foot by asking for
|> guaranteed preorder dates so far in advance
With a second printing they will.
|> -- after all, they're just
|> giving players reason to buy competitors' products. (After all, isn't
|> TSR coming out with a very similar card game in the next couple weeks)?
Unfortunately, games are a monopolistically competitive product, unlike
true competitive products like most agricultural products. (ie. There
is little, if any, difference between store-quality pears produced at one
farm than another.) As a result, unless WotC allows other companies to
produce Magic cards, we have no choice but to play Magic cards sold by
WotC. That's the monopoly side of competition.
However, unlike true monopolies such as the local utilities, monopolistically
competitive products are not essential, and, given an unsatisfying enough
product, customers will purchase an alternate, but similar product. (eg.
Spellfire) What the "No Magic means No Customers" doomsayers are saying
is that Magic will eventually become dissatisfying enough that the alternate
products will be attractive enough to Magic's customer base.
Me, I'll just want my Legends Collector's Edition.
Cedric.
--
Keep bugging your distributor / retailer for a Collector's Edition
of Legends and Jyhad, and save yourself some $$$.
Cedric Chin
|>
|> I'm sure WotC would be more than willing to keep going with this, but with
|> there Netrunner and Jyhad game coming up as well... Magic is going to get
|> run into the ground and what we see now is going to be the last gasp of
|> Magic. Just watch how quickly bids for Revised Edition Magic gets sold
|> when it putters down when Jyhad and Netrunner comes out.
The problem, again, is that Magic is a monopolistically competitive product,
and Netrunner and Jyhad compete against Magic. Furthermore, these competitors
are new products competing against a product with a considerable foothold in the
arguably small market niche.
Or as Russ said, "I don't need to buy more cards!"
Cedric.
Cedric Chin
WotC to solicit for orders of Collector's Editions.
Cedric.
In article <2uahrc$am4$2...@heifetz.msen.com>, mhu...@garnet.msen.com (Mark Hughes) writes:
|> Is it true that there will not be a second printing of Legends? I did
|> not have an opportunity to buy any, as they were sold out in twenty
|> minutes while I was at work. If this game becomes a game of employment
|> status and relationship to hobby shop employees, I will be giving up
|> on it soon.
|>
|> Mark
Lisa Richardson
>However, unlike true monopolies such as the local utilities, monopolistically
>competitive products are not essential, and, given an unsatisfying enough
>product, customers will purchase an alternate, but similar product. (eg.
>Spellfire) What the "No Magic means No Customers" doomsayers are saying
>is that Magic will eventually become dissatisfying enough that the alternate
>products will be attractive enough to Magic's customer base.
Some of thse Doomsayers are leaving Magic right now because they seen some
stuff they don't like seeing in some of the new card ideas. And said
doomsayers are definitely looking at some of the alternative products for a
look see. There are even some looking forward to alternatives like TNG.
Lisa Richardson
Netrunner and Jyhad are coming from the same company as Magic... They are
not going to compete with Magic, they will end up replacing magic because
if they make it just one massive print like they do with Magic, we will get
rec.games.deckmaster.netrunner soon and rec.games.deckmaster.jyhad. Or we
will just drown out the Magic traffic. Then there is the expansions for
those, where people will sit on the sidelines and wait for those to come
out just like magic.
Douglas Limmer
>look see. There are even some looking forward to alternatives like TNG.
What's TNG? From previous comments, it sounds like it's from WotC, but I'm
not certain. I hope it is *not* a "Star Trek: the Next Generation"-based
Magic-like card game, because I am hoping for a good sci-fi card game, and
ST:tNG doesn't have the right background, in my opinion, and I am often
turned off by Star Trek merchandizing anyway.
Doug L.
--
Douglas Limmer - lim...@math.orst.edu
"Stand back everybody; I'm gonna express myself!"
- "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Polka Patterns", Square 1 Television
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
> By the way, between all this hoopla, one thing should be pointed out:
> Legends cards WILL be reprinted.
> Yes, just like Arabian Nights and Antiquities, the best cards from
> Legends will be added to the standard set.
I'm not sure I'll be looking forward to that. As I remember,
WotC chose some pretty lousy cards to migrate to the standard
set. I remember with disgust finding Titania's Song, Dragon
Engine, and Unstable Mutation in three of my rare slots. Now,
Dragon Engine and Unstable Mutation are somewhat useful cards,
but not when they fall into a rare slot. It seems as if they
took the LEAST useful cards from the expansion sets and put
them in the standard set. Consider Atog, Energy Flux, Hurkyl's
Recall, Magnetic Mtn., Armageddon Clock, Bottle of Suleiman,
Ebony Horse, and Mishra's War Machine. When have you ever
seens any of these cards used in a serious deck?
I could probably sort through the Legends I do have and
pick out the ones that will migrate to the standard set.
(It's just like I can always pick the finalists on America's
Funniest Home Videos...I simply figure out which were the
worst and stupidist videos. I usually get 2 out of 3 right).
> Finally, I'm curious about the signs that Magic is about to eat dirt.
> I haven't seen any - it's still spreading like wildfire here. Not to mention
> the fact that much of the world market hasn't yet been tapped (no pun
> intended) - I may be going
I'd agree here. I've not seen any signs that the fad is anywhere
close to being over. The only disention I see is when people
can get cards and threaten to quit playing. The ONLY thing that
could kill magic within three years is if people can't get the
cards, quit playing, and buy some other game.
-- Bill
Christer Borang
[zap]
> Actually, it seems to be turning into a game of *being* a
>hobby shop employee. The largest hoarders I know of locally
>are all hobby shop employees (one's sitting on 23 display
>boxes).
> When a store tells me it got shorted by the distributor, and then
>I find out that their employees have a hoard of cards, it's time
>to find another place to shop.
Glad we don't have that kinds of stores here...a friend of mine who
works at one of the local gaming stores orderered 50 packs of legend,
but he'll only be able to get 5 of them. Customers first.
> I'd like to see another printing of Legends, so that the
>ordinary players can get cards. It'd also be nice if the
>future expansions get shipped in a few waves, rather than
>once, so that people who can't hover around the game
>stores have a chance to buy them.
So would I...even if I've managed to get my grubby little hands on a
few packs. Or rather, I've arranged for my hands to get them in a
week. :-)
//Christer
--
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum
-- Small Gods, Terry Pratchett
Lisa Richardson
>> Finally, I'm curious about the signs that Magic is about to eat dirt.
>> I haven't seen any - it's still spreading like wildfire here. Not to mention
>> the fact that much of the world market hasn't yet been tapped (no pun
>> intended) - I may be going
>I'd agree here. I've not seen any signs that the fad is anywhere
>close to being over. The only disention I see is when people
>can get cards and threaten to quit playing. The ONLY thing that
>could kill magic within three years is if people can't get the
>cards, quit playing, and buy some other game.
The signs are there. Look in the marketplace and on here for sales... Some
people will say they are selling off their collection because they want to
get off this merry-go-round that magic is doing right now. And with their
Netrunner and Jyhad coming up, Magic is not going to survive mainly because
they still have Carte Mundi being their sole printer, and if they can't
handle the load right now, they can't print Jyhad while doing Magic. They
can't print Netrunner while doing Jyhad.
The cycle system is going to make people disinterested and those who want a
game similar, will hop onto the clones, even if they are junk.
Tulse X. Luper
> In article <priss.7...@tcp.com> pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
> >look see. There are even some looking forward to alternatives like TNG.
> What's TNG? From previous comments, it sounds like it's from WotC, but I'm
> not certain.
From The Duelist Supplement: "Games at Gama" (what other industrial magazine
would freely advertise competitors' products?)--
STAR TREK: TNG (R) Customizable (TM) Card Game [by Decipher]. "Klingons,
Ferengi and Borg appear along with familiar Federation faces in this game
based on the characters, worlds, and situations encountered in ST:TNG..."
Further says basic decks will be $8.95 for 60 cards, the first 10K of which
will be Limited Edition, with Expansion Sets, etc. Seems to be a trend.
I wonder if the pit o' black goo (I forget the critter's name) will be
a highly sought-after card...
ere...@digex.com -----------------------------------------------------------
"A man of decent age sometimes still desires the world."
--------------------------------- Tulse Luper: 92 thrashing thrashers in VUE.
Jesse Fuchs
: In article <2ucdq4$8...@amhux3.amherst.edu>, <jmf...@unix.amherst.edu> writes:
: > By the way, between all this hoopla, one thing should be pointed out:
: > Legends cards WILL be reprinted.
: > Yes, just like Arabian Nights and Antiquities, the best cards from
: > Legends will be added to the standard set.
: I'm not sure I'll be looking forward to that. As I remember,
: WotC chose some pretty lousy cards to migrate to the standard
: set. I remember with disgust finding Titania's Song, Dragon
: Engine, and Unstable Mutation in three of my rare slots. Now,
: Dragon Engine and Unstable Mutation are somewhat useful cards,
: but not when they fall into a rare slot.
Well, I think that Titania's Song, while not amazingly useful, was a
good choice, simply as a Mox wiper-outter for people who didn't get unlimited.
Dragon Engine should've been uncommon - no argument there. Unstable Mutation
is a common Revised card, if you got one in a rare slot, then you just got
dicked.
It seems as if they
: took the LEAST useful cards from the expansion sets and put
: them in the standard set. Consider Atog, Energy Flux, Hurkyl's
: Recall, Magnetic Mtn., Armageddon Clock, Bottle of Suleiman,
: Ebony Horse, and Mishra's War Machine. When have you ever
: seens any of these cards used in a serious deck?
Really? They're not the top cards, but I'm a pretty big fan of most
of the cards you just named. Atogs are great for detente (you don't have to
eat the artifacts, you just have to let your opponent know they are there.),
Energy Flux is extremely useful if you aren't playing with artifacts,
Hurkyl's Recall is great in both my Timetwister and my Mind Twist/Hypnotic
Specter decks, Magnetic Mountain is a great way to dick blue, as well as a
prime component in my Winter Orb/Manabarbs/Llanowar Elves/Kird Apes/ Birds
of Paradise deck, Armageddon Clock and Bottle of Suleiman are of fairly
limited use, but both good in a COP: Artifacts deck (one card that _definitely_
should have made it into Revised - I heard that more Antiquities were getting
added to the next printing, though, so who knows,) and the bottle is killer
if you have the Archeologist out, Ebony Horse is kinda neat, and Mishra's
War Machine is one of three non-white banding creatures, as well as the only
non-white banding creature who isn't 1/1. All cards are good - you just have
to know how to use 'em right.
And besides, some pretty nice cards did get added: Kird Apes,
Aladdin's Stuff, Shatterstorm (in an uncommon slot!), Flying Carpet,
Sorceress Queen, Jandor's Saddlebags, Brass Man (I _like_ em, and unlike in
AN, he's not rare,) etc.
: I could probably sort through the Legends I do have and
: pick out the ones that will migrate to the standard set.
: (It's just like I can always pick the finalists on America's
: Funniest Home Videos...I simply figure out which were the
: worst and stupidist videos. I usually get 2 out of 3 right).
Well, we'll see. I don't think it'd be right of WotC to move the
really spectacular cards, (Ali From Cairo, Argivian Archeologist, Nicol Bolas)
into Revised, because that would sort of screw the people who bought the
expansion and were really excited to get such cool cards. But good,
non-unbalancing stuff is still introduced, and keeps the game lively. I
think, excepting a few bad rarity choices, WotC did pretty well in Revised,
and I don't expect the next one to change that.
-jesse
: > Finally, I'm curious about the signs that Magic is about to eat dirt.
Rob Vines
>In article <priss.7...@tcp.com> pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
>>look see. There are even some looking forward to alternatives like TNG.
>What's TNG? From previous comments, it sounds like it's from WotC, but I'm
>not certain. I hope it is *not* a "Star Trek: the Next Generation"-based
>Magic-like card game, because I am hoping for a good sci-fi card game, and
>ST:tNG doesn't have the right background, in my opinion, and I am often
>turned off by Star Trek merchandizing anyway.
It is based on Star Trek: TNG, but don't worry; there's a cyberpunk-
based game being developed by WotC if a slightly seedier universe
than Star Trek's appeals to you more.
Steven R. Pagano
> I'd like to see another printing of Legends, so that the
>ordinary players can get cards. It'd also be nice if the
>future expansions get shipped in a few waves, rather than
>once, so that people who can't hover around the game
>stores have a chance to buy them.
I must agree. I live in a not-very-large city; there are but two places
that even sell MtG here. They each got in two shipments of Legends and
sold out in about 1 1/2 hours. Like a great majority of the players, I
have other commitments that keep me from living at these stores, and I am
very frustrated when I get the following:
Clerk: No, we don't have them yet. They'll be here tomorrow.
Clerk (next day): Sorry, the truck was delayed. Come back tomorrow.
Clerk (two days later): Sorry, we got them in this morning, and we're
already sold out.
I actually had a conversation with an employee of one of these otherwise
very fine establishments, yesterday. It kind of went like this:
(Conversation about Legends cards and net trading leads into)
Him: Actually, I'm just waiting for Spellfire.
Me: I'm not so sure. TSR doesn't have a history of making playable non-
RPGs.
Him: But I don't just play -- I collect. I'm mad as hell at WotC right now,
and I refuse to buy any of their stuff.
Me: Why?
Him: You said it yourself -- I can't get all the cards, no matter what I do.
There's no sense in me trying.
Me: Yeah -- I see what you mean. A freind of mine bought something like
sixty booster packs for Legends, and he doesn't even have all the
Uncomons, let alone the Rares.
Him: Exactly. I used to collect abseball cards, and I liked it, because
even if I was missing a rare card, I could find more packs to buy
just about anywhere. That's why I'm looking forward to Spellfire.
Even if the game isn't as good, you know that TSR will keep the
supply lines rolling, and I'll never have to worry about finding
boosters to buy, or limited runs, or any of that.
Interesting points he made. Right now I'm seething for lack of Legends, and
those of you who've seen my trade post know how much I want them. My cash
flow is rather limited, and I can only buy a booster or two each week or so --
nothing like the mass quantities I'd have to buy from the sales of boxes
and the like on the net (and no, the prices are not all gouging yet....).
Just a few thoughts and opinions.
Steve
--
Steve Pagano
pag...@math.binghamton.edu
Erstwhile Wizard and Mathematician
``Pinky, you have the recall of a Lima bean.''
Andrew Brecher
>writes:
>
>>>My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy their
>>>customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel very,
>
>No, they printed enough to satisfy their orders (and maybe a little more)
>that were in by the designated date. Reviewing the whole process of how
>the cards are ordered and distributed should help you make sense out of it.
>I think that way back then stores just didn't order enough, you should
>probably be pointing your finger at them.
First of all, "maybe a little more" is completely false, as they have stated
many times that they print exactly the number of cards that were ordered.
Unless you're talking about rounding up to the nearest 1000 or something
to make things even.
I have "reviewed the whole process" many times. I've decided that it's a
very flawed process, since the number of cards printed is inaccurate to the
demand. I've also proposed an alternate system, which I've stated many times
and I don't feel like repeating.
>>>very soon. I personally believe that Magic will be nearly dead by a year
from
>>>now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
>I disagree, but since you didn't support your opinion I won't either.
Sigh. I've supported my opinion many times. You pick the one message which
I posted that summarized my opinions w/o support, and then claim that I don't
support my opinion as an excuse not to support yours. Figures.
>A second printing would be a really bad idea in my opinion for a couple of
>reasons.
>o Penny pinchers like myself who prefer to trade (like WotC recommends) over
> trying to buy every single card, would bypass the first print run with the
> little money we do spend, because we can always get second printings
> cheaper. If a lot of people did this (and I am only saying they might),
> stores could get shafted on first print runs and be less likely to order
> them in the future.
Cheaper? Where in the world do you get that?
There will still be a demand for first run cards if a second run is planned,
since there would likely be a lag time of a few months. People will want to
get cards as soon as possible. If they changed the borders for the second run,
the first set will be worth even more to collectors- I won't go so far as to
say that the first run would be just as valuable with a second run, since
demand is in part shaped by the playability (irrespective of border) of a card,
but it will still be high. Note how much more valuable alphas/betas/ULs are
than reviseds.
>o I have no problem with the way things work now. There has never been
> a card I could not trade for, or a company somewhere that has a few
> cards left to sell. WotC has stated its plan and has stuck to it.
> The argument that every should be allowed to have all the cards is flawed.
Straw man. I have never claimed this, and I do not agree with it. I'm
talking about size of print run, not distribution.
> The odds of me being able to persuade anyone who thinks that way to think
> differently is minimal, just give it some thought, you may be able to
> see the light yourself.
Are you always this condescending to people you disagree with?
>It all comes down to following the rules and risk.
I think the amount of risk in the system is a major cause of the problem.
> Certain rules govern the ordering process and distribution of Magic cards.
> Those rules are not going to change so as an individual or as part of a
> group, we must all learn to cope with these rules or get the f*ck out of
> this particular system and quit bitching.
As many point out, what's wrong with sending constructive feedback to the
creator of a product in an effort to make the product more appealing? I
believe WotC has taken a flawed strategy, and I am encouraging them to
change it, and warning them that many people (such as myself) may very well
"get the fuck out of this particular system". Obviously, WotC doesn't >want<
their customers to leave.
>Rules of supply and demand would
> suggest that we manipulate this dynamic system with our money, not
> useless bellyaching. (Hey, I just bellyached, darn)
I disagree. I don't want WotC to go out of business. I want them to improve
their product. And since there are no competitors right now, economics
doesn't hold up very well.
>In sum, I really think the problem with a lot of these complaints is just
>not understanding how things work, or the belief that changing them will
>make things better without knowing all the details.
So where does your information come from? I've read numerous report on rgd
on how it works, and these reports form the basis of my opinion that something
is wrong with the system. I'm not convinced that WotC >likes< the system, only
that they can't think of a better one.
>Some examples to tear apart (simplistic examples always do):
>
>You are offered a ONE_TIME_ONLY deal on some kind of product. It is made very
>clear to you that this will be ONE_TIME_ONLY and you have to order by a
>specific date. They are only making as much of this product as is ordered.
I think this may be the problem. I was NEVER NEVER NEVER told that I had to
order Legends by January 15. I don't think any endproduct consumer was told
that. All I heard was that it would be available sometime in the spring,
late April to early June or something. I think that only the actual shop
keepers knew the cutoff date. I usually get my cards second-hand, so even
if they did tell the people I buy from (which I don't think they did) I
wouldn't hear it.
>You don't order the product and get mad when there isn't any left over.
>Or you order some of this product and then realize you should have ordered
>more. Is it the fault of the person making the offer or your fault that
>you are now unhappy with your situation.
>(The analogy of course is that you are a store in the real world)
Why do you insist on a store's P.O.V.? The customer's demand is all that
matters.
Here's one more thing to consider. I have yet to hear a good response from
people who are against a second printing.
What's the difference between two printings of 35 million each and one
printing of 70 million?
-Andrew Brecher (andrew_...@brown.edu) (insert disclaimer here)
Douglas Limmer
>lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas Limmer) writes:
>
>>What's TNG? From previous comments, it sounds like it's from WotC, but I'm
>>not certain. I hope it is *not* a "Star Trek: the Next Generation"-based
>>Magic-like card game, because I am hoping for a good sci-fi card game, and
>>ST:tNG doesn't have the right background, in my opinion, and I am often
>>turned off by Star Trek merchandizing anyway.
>
>It is based on Star Trek: TNG, but don't worry; there's a cyberpunk-
>based game being developed by WotC if a slightly seedier universe
>than Star Trek's appeals to you more.
>
it doesn't have weird enough aliens, and they are all pretty much from a few
limited species. I'd probably like a "Lensman" card game, but even setting it
in the Lensman universe would limit the variety of cards too much.
Lisa Richardson
>Interesting points he made. Right now I'm seething for lack of Legends, and
>those of you who've seen my trade post know how much I want them. My cash
>flow is rather limited, and I can only buy a booster or two each week or so --
>nothing like the mass quantities I'd have to buy from the sales of boxes
>and the like on the net (and no, the prices are not all gouging yet....).
That's 2, people. Given the limited number of people who read this group,
and not from my 'biased' opinion. I hope WotC is reading this.
George Pratt
ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu writes:
>My opinion is that Wizards is has not printed enough cards to satisfy
their
>customers, and are therefore making a big mistake which they will feel
very,
year
>from now, especially after all the clones hit the market.
>
I have a basic question about the clone games, how many people are going
to start playing another game that costs as much as magic??
George
George Pratt
writes:
>: In article <2u7b4t$4...@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>,
<ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu> writes:
>
>
>: And, every single distributor and retailer said they had been
>: shorted between 60 and 90% of their order. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
>: Now, I suppose all six stores and 5 major distributors could
>: be lying about how many they ordered, but I doubt it.
I would like to propose a little experiment. Go back to the stores that
were claiming they were shorted in about a month. Look around a see if
Legends have made a "Magical" reappearance at $5.00 a pack.
I talked to my local hobby stores. These stores use multiple
distributors. One store claimed it were shorted by ONE of the
distrubutors by (I forget the exact amount) about 15%. They other said
they got all they ordered. There aren't that many distributors in the
US. Either your stores use different distributors or they aren't telling
you the truth. (In fact, one distributor sent more than the number of
boxes ordered figuring the store wouldn't mind)
Try my little experiment and let us know what happened. There are a lot
of people out there who find WotC a convienent way to hide their own
greed.
George Pratt
writes:
>Not a good thing to say, Dave... Because now you make it sound like you
>are high and mighty. Yes, while printing extras is a risk, given your
>current demand for cards, it is WORTH taking a risk.
Priss,
You are missing a basic point. These folks are talking about risking
their jobs. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby so this
story may be new to you. About 15 years ago TSR created a board game
version of DnD. It sucked. TSR printed MILLIONS of copies that didn't
sell. They had to pay the printer for printing the games and a warehouse
for storing them. If TSR hadn't had DnD bringing in tons on money the
company would have gone broke. As it was several people got fired.
My point is WotC can make a healthy profit playing it safe. It is
their choice to decide how many cards they print. If they print too few
they get bitched at. BUT if they print too many they might have to start
looking for new job. You may be unhappy about their conservatism but
remember to you it is a game, to Snark it is rent money.
>
>I just might Pre-order a Box of Dark and just sit on it... Wait a few
>monthes and then sell it on here. Yes, this is not something you like to
>see, but so far... You will have that happen at a slightly larger scale.
If you really want to help things instead of making them worse, pre-order
Jihad or something even farther out that the print run isn't set yet.
George
Peter M. White
Therefore what? You want more cards available, so you want it magically
convenient for more cards to be printed.
Snark addressed this issue of timing very thoroughly and convincingly.
As a practical matter, they were locked into a print size three months
before release date. What did you want them to do 2 1/2 months before
release date? Maybe rent a time machine so they could lock in a
decision for a bigger shipment a full month earlier? Or should they
screw over all their own marketing plans for making a big splash at
GenCon with Jyhad and push back all their other Deckmaster projects?
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Peter M. White
>Netrunner and Jyhad are coming from the same company as Magic... They are
>not going to compete with Magic, they will end up replacing magic because
>if they make it just one massive print like they do with Magic, we will get
>rec.games.deckmaster.netrunner soon and rec.games.deckmaster.jyhad. Or we
>will just drown out the Magic traffic. Then there is the expansions for
>those, where people will sit on the sidelines and wait for those to come
>out just like magic.
There is a strong advantage to having one standard game. Right now,
I can walk into a local gamestore, say "Wanna play Magic?" and
get a game going 90% of the time. "Uh, how about Jyhad?" "Sorry,
only Netrunner." If the market actually splinters, it will more
than merely cannibalize itself, it will sharply shrink as well. Sure,
I plan on buying a couple starters of the new games, so they are in
no danger of flopping, but there is no way I am not going to repeat
the effort I put into my Magic collection to also have a Jyhad collection.
I do not expect to see other products replacing Magic anytime soon.
They will curtail its growth, but that is about it.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Lisa Richardson
> You are missing a basic point. These folks are talking about risking
>their jobs. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby so this
>story may be new to you. About 15 years ago TSR created a board game
>version of DnD. It sucked. TSR printed MILLIONS of copies that didn't
>sell. They had to pay the printer for printing the games and a warehouse
>for storing them. If TSR hadn't had DnD bringing in tons on money the
>company would have gone broke. As it was several people got fired.
No, I am well aware of the potential risks... But Basing your printing on
just Pre-orders alone? No... It doesn't work that well that way. Cause
now, when you have a short, and people are asking for more, and you had NO
INTENTION of printing more of this set... Guess what, you just lost some
customers in one area and alos potentially new customers in that very same
area.
> My point is WotC can make a healthy profit playing it safe. It is
>their choice to decide how many cards they print. If they print too few
>they get bitched at. BUT if they print too many they might have to start
>looking for new job. You may be unhappy about their conservatism but
>remember to you it is a game, to Snark it is rent money.
And if they don't print a 2nd run for some of the requests, they get
dropped and they won't have to worry about being bitched at, because they
will have to start looking for a new job.
>>I just might Pre-order a Box of Dark and just sit on it... Wait a few
>>monthes and then sell it on here. Yes, this is not something you like to
>>see, but so far... You will have that happen at a slightly larger scale.
>If you really want to help things instead of making them worse, pre-order
>Jihad or something even farther out that the print run isn't set yet.
George, Pre-ordering something to insure you get it is not something a
gamer should do. That is the crux of a COLLECTOR. A gamer should be able
to come in at any time and pick up a booster pack and go, "Cool." They
should NOT have to pre-order like crazy and buy hordes of them at a time to
insure they will have enough cards to tide them over. As a game, the
system is great, but it availability and chances of making gamers happy
SUCKS. For Collectors, it's great, assuming it ever breathes air that
isn't cellophane.
Peter M. White
>The signs are there. Look in the marketplace and on here for sales... Some
>people will say they are selling off their collection because they want to
>get off this merry-go-round that magic is doing right now. And with their
>Netrunner and Jyhad coming up, Magic is not going to survive mainly because
>they still have Carte Mundi being their sole printer, and if they can't
>handle the load right now, they can't print Jyhad while doing Magic. They
>can't print Netrunner while doing Jyhad.
Considering how many people read the appropiate newsgroups, the sound
of people jumping out is not even a whisper. In fact, players were
jumping out of this game for their own reasons before you ever even
made your first post about Magic; I sure haven't noticed any changed.
Maybe we should have jumped off way back then, too? People hock their
old Porsches and diamond rings all the time; it doesn't mean those
products are in any trouble.
How much product WotC/Carte Mundi can handle is an interesting issue,
I must admit.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Andrew Brecher
>ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu (Andrew Brecher) writes:
>
>>The thing is...>why< should orders be cut off so early? In this case, orders
>>had to be in >five months< before they were released. It is this lag time
>>that I personally consider to be the root of the problem. It means that
>>everyone who hears about Legends between January 16 and June 12 (after
>>preorders closed, before they were shipped) would have a very difficult time
>>finding Legends. That's a long time...
>
>I hear this over and over, and I think it is wrong. Someone correct me if
>I am off here, but I believe 5 months is not a long time in the normal
>retail world. I have a friend who used to work for, letmethink, Cost
>Plus Imports in purchasing. She polished off her orders in June and
>July for Christmas items.
>
>it is a bit brazen to fault WotC for standard business practices.
This is just a guess here, but it sounds like, for the purchasing company
above, that the customers knew that Christmas stuff had to be ordered in the
summer. This is not the case here. If Wizards had publicized that you
should order cards in January or you might not get them, I would have no gripe.
But if all they say is "Available in June", then the implication is that all
you need to do is go down to your store in June and you'll be able to buy some.
There are other complicating factors:
- Legends is a limited edition. No more will be printed again, ever,
according to WotC. I don't know what Cost Plus Imports sells, but I'm
guessing that they would make more of whatever it is if there was the demand
for it.
- No real competition. If Cost Plus Imports undersold, then some other company
would take up the slack. Magic is nowhere near the competitive market it
will be in two years, maybe even two months.
Charles Staley
: Cedric.
You are obviously the one that is missing the point. Christmas was
obviously being used as an easily seen example. The point was that in
the retail industry, 5 months before release of a limited edition is not
that excessive. The question is how many people have owned their own
business?? Product development is not cheap, and if excess funds are
spent just in case the product is incredibly popular sot hat more copies
can be available. What happens to that excess stock if the product
flops?? The company eats it and they lose lots of money. This is what
happens to all those fly-by-night gaming companies that appear with what
they think is a great product, but the consumer doesn't agree.
The first rule of business is to make a business plan and STICK TO IT!!
If a company changes the way it does things every time they have a market
success, they will eventually lose their direction and could collapse.
Avatar
Charles Staley
: >However, unlike true monopolies such as the local utilities, monopolistically
: >competitive products are not essential, and, given an unsatisfying enough
: >product, customers will purchase an alternate, but similar product. (eg.
: >Spellfire) What the "No Magic means No Customers" doomsayers are saying
: >is that Magic will eventually become dissatisfying enough that the alternate
: >products will be attractive enough to Magic's customer base.
: Some of thse Doomsayers are leaving Magic right now because they seen some
: stuff they don't like seeing in some of the new card ideas. And said
: doomsayers are definitely looking at some of the alternative products for a
: look see. There are even some looking forward to alternatives like TNG.
: --
We have had Spellfire on the shelf now for close to a week. We have not
even sold one booster pack yet!! People come in and look at it and say,
"Oh this is TSR's rip off of magic." We have had a couple of people ask
for TNG.....I think the Duelist Supplement shows WotC attitudes about
other card game products. They listed all of the ones currenlty in the
works and gave a brief write up of each. If they were so scared of
losing their 'market share' why would they point out the competition to
their customers??
Magic is very well established and I for one will not be spending large
sums of money to fill my apartment with multitudes of cards for different
games...I play magic and the most I would get for any toehr games will be
a starter deck a couple boosters.
If you don't like MtG, Spellfire is available, but I don't hear you
saying that you are going to dump all your magic cards to rush out and
buy Spellfire....
Avatar
Chris Page
> The signs are there. Look in the marketplace and on here for sales... Some
> people will say they are selling off their collection because they want to
> get off this merry-go-round that magic is doing right now. And with their
> Netrunner and Jyhad coming up, Magic is not going to survive mainly because
> they still have Carte Mundi being their sole printer, and if they can't
> handle the load right now, they can't print Jyhad while doing Magic. They
> can't print Netrunner while doing Jyhad.
>
Who says Carte Mundi can't print more cards?
The holdup is them having to build new sorting machines, which takes a
number of months.
-Chris Page
pa...@student.physics.upenn.edu
David Thiel
>gamer should do. That is the crux of a COLLECTOR. A gamer should be able
>to come in at any time and pick up a booster pack and go, "Cool." They
>should NOT have to pre-order like crazy and buy hordes of them at a time to
>insure they will have enough cards to tide them over. As a game, the
>system is great, but it availability and chances of making gamers happy
>SUCKS. For Collectors, it's great, assuming it ever breathes air that
>isn't cellophane.
At this point, I find I have to agree with Lisa. I was mulling this over
just this morning, that the biggest difference between Magic and your
average Parker Bros. game isn't the concept or the cards, but the
availability. You can't just go into a toy store and buy the game. You have
to call around, place pre-orders, stand in line, or just get lucky. If
Parker Bros. (or Milton Bradley, etc.) comes up with a hot game that blows
off the shelves, they make more. But the current marketing plan behind Magic
makes scarcity a selling point.
I got into the whole phenomenon rather late, and while I was fortunate
enough to get my box of Legends (thank you, Fantasy Realm!), I can really
understand the frustration of those who were left out. Sure, you can play a
perfectly good game with the Revised set, but it's no fun to watch everyone
else get the cool new cards while you're stuck with those "old" Lords of the
Pit. I feel similarly about the Arabian Nights--when I see someone pull out
AN cards, I think, "Gosh, those are really neat!" Then I think, "Gee, too
bad I can't buy them..."
I've heard the responses "you don't need all the cards, you whiners," or
"but you can trade/buy/sell your soul for them on the secondary market,"
etc., etc. Sure, you can't have everything. But if enough people get
frustrated by problems such as availability, the overwhelming number of
cards in the set or the weird card distribution, they may seek happier
shores. You might say, "I don't see that happening now." But Magic is still
very much a fad--whether it becomes a staple of the game market depends on
whether it can hold onto its customer base.
My supervisor is fond of saying "perception is reality." If customers
perceive a problem, then it *is* a problem, whether you think it's a problem
or not. At that point, you either have to address the problem, or live with
the fact that you might lose those customers.
David Thiel / Traffic Manager / WILL-TV / University of Illinois / Urbana
Internet: d-t...@uiuc.edu
Disclaimer: My views do not reflect those of WILL-TV, PBS or Barney.
Charles Staley
: Him: Exactly. I used to collect abseball cards, and I liked it, because
: even if I was missing a rare card, I could find more packs to buy
: just about anywhere. That's why I'm looking forward to Spellfire.
: Even if the game isn't as good, you know that TSR will keep the
: supply lines rolling, and I'll never have to worry about finding
: boosters to buy, or limited runs, or any of that.
: Interesting points he made. Right now I'm seething for lack of Legends, and
: those of you who've seen my trade post know how much I want them. My cash
: flow is rather limited, and I can only buy a booster or two each week or so --
: nothing like the mass quantities I'd have to buy from the sales of boxes
: and the like on the net (and no, the prices are not all gouging yet....).
If you've read any of the info on Spellfire....TSR is touting Spellfire
as a "Collectible" Card game.....To me that does not necessarily mean
they are going to print a near infinite supply of cards. A card is NOT a
collector's item if their are 20,000,000 of that 'special rare' card out
there to be found. TSR is planning to make special releases of new
Booster environments too. It think that Magic will still retain its
popularity and value because you can't get all the cards easily, and the
playing environment is still interesting.
Through trading and limited buying I have a complete set of Arabians,
Antiquities and Unlimited cards, in addition to just over 1/2 of the
Legends cards. Every game is still new (Depending on who you play, that
is...)....Each game I either see a Legends card that I don't have, or I
see card combinations that I hadn't thought of using. The fun is still
in the playing.....I like to make decks using lots of different
combinations.......The only thing that having more cards does for me, is
it enables me to explore a few more combinations than my neighbor who has
maybe a total of 300 cards. He has few cards, but keeps coming up with
new ways to throw them together to keep having fun.
Avatar
Charles Staley
: This is just a guess here, but it sounds like, for the purchasing company
: above, that the customers knew that Christmas stuff had to be ordered in the
: summer. This is not the case here. If Wizards had publicized that you
: should order cards in January or you might not get them, I would have no gripe.
: But if all they say is "Available in June", then the implication is that all
: you need to do is go down to your store in June and you'll be able to buy some.
: There are other complicating factors:
: - Legends is a limited edition. No more will be printed again, ever,
: according to WotC. I don't know what Cost Plus Imports sells, but I'm
: guessing that they would make more of whatever it is if there was the demand
: for it.
: - No real competition. If Cost Plus Imports undersold, then some other company
: would take up the slack. Magic is nowhere near the competitive market it
: will be in two years, maybe even two months.
: -Andrew Brecher (andrew_...@brown.edu) (insert disclaimer here)
Seems the same thing to me ----- The retailer knew when to make the
order...Perhaps people should be complaining to their retailers at this
point. They knew that they had a time frame to follow to get orders in
on time, but most retailers did not point this out to the customers (to
avoid abusive come backs here....I do acknowlegde that some retailers did
take orders from customers before the close date....)...I don't read
about people Flaming their retailers for ordering Conservatively, just
flaming WotC for only printing the number of cards actually ordered.
Perhaps if the consumers that are being so upset would become a little
more vocal to their RETAILERS, then maybe the retailer will know what to
order next time. Of course this doesn't always work, as our DM refused
to listen to everything that the staff had heard from people about
Spellfire and he ordered tons of Spellfire....and we haven't sold any yet!!
Avatar
Josh Smith
LR> There are some Legend Box Holders who are not selling below Retail, and
LR> are sitting on them, waiting. It has happen before, and WotC has not
LR> made an effort to stop it.
What on earth would you recommend that they do? I can't think of any
conceivable way to prevent people from hoarding unopened packs on
speculation while preserving the spirit of MtG as a "collectible trading
card game".
-------------------------------------------++-------------------------------
Josh Smith, Certified Evil Genius || Pleasure: iri...@hmc.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA USA |+-------------------------------
http://www.hmc.edu/~irilyth/homepage.html || Business: jo...@hmc.edu
-------------------------------------------++-------------------------------
Tom Wylie
>> By the way, between all this hoopla, one thing should be pointed out:
>> Legends cards WILL be reprinted.
>> Yes, just like Arabian Nights and Antiquities, the best cards from
>> Legends will be added to the standard set.
>I'm not sure I'll be looking forward to that. As I remember,
>WotC chose some pretty lousy cards to migrate to the standard
>set. I remember with disgust finding Titania's Song, Dragon
Is Titania's Song really any less useful then Natural Selection? Is Dragon
Engine any less useful than an island? Is Unstable Mutation really any less
useful than a Twiddle? (By the way, UM's a common, not a rare.) All of
these are just as useful, or more useful, than what they replaced, at least
if you use them properly in a deck.
>Consider Atog, Energy Flux, Hurkyl's
>Recall, Magnetic Mtn., Armageddon Clock, Bottle of Suleiman,
>Ebony Horse, and Mishra's War Machine. When have you ever
>seens any of these cards used in a serious deck?
I've used Atog, Bottle of Suleiman, and Armageddon Clock in serious decks.
Haven't used Hurkyl's Recall, but then I don't build heavily artifact decks.
I've seen Energy Flux used in effective decks. I have to admit I've probably
never used Magnetic Mountain, but red didn't have a companion card for
Volcanic Eruption, which is probably why MM was added.
Remember that the goal is that an expansion set should not imbalance the
game. This is even more true of the cards swapped into Gathering. If
we just swap in all the power cards from an expansion, then we just escalate
the Gathering... Sure, we'll swap in Craw Giant, if you don't mind us
taking out Force of Nature. (That was purely hypothetical, by the way.)
Swapping in Argivian Archaeologist for the Savannah Lions would not have
been real conducive to keeping escalation in check, for example.
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Lisa Richardson
>Who says Carte Mundi can't print more cards?
WotC and their Netreps. You guys stated that you can only print so many
cards a month. If you divest your printing facilities to do 2 things, and
later on, 3 things... You will not be able to dedicate your facilities to
produce the number you would like to within a certain time period. Of
course, when dealing with limited printings, you don't want to deal with
small numbers in a short period of time.
>The holdup is them having to build new sorting machines, which takes a
>number of months.
And when did they finally decide to start building the new sorting
machines?
Lisa Richardson
>We have had Spellfire on the shelf now for close to a week. We have not
>even sold one booster pack yet!! People come in and look at it and say,
>"Oh this is TSR's rip off of magic." We have had a couple of people ask
>for TNG.....I think the Duelist Supplement shows WotC attitudes about
>other card game products. They listed all of the ones currenlty in the
>works and gave a brief write up of each. If they were so scared of
>losing their 'market share' why would they point out the competition to
>their customers??
Two things to address about Spellfire. Yes, there will be people who call
it a rip off of Magic. I would call it a ripoff of Magic. Personally, I'm
a bit tired of TSR stuff, and you will have people doing that. But, as
someone liked pointing something out to me, that is just in your area. In
my area, Magic is not as available as it is in your area. WE got a few
horders who lock it out for the rest of us. Those who are looking for an
alternative that they can get on, they will buy Spellfire. then your
people asking about TNG. Sounds like they might be getting tired of Magic
as well. Now, as for the Duelist listing other game products... So what?
It is agood way to compare their stuff to others, especially when they
currently the head leader of this type of game. Businesses in Computers
and Software sometimes do this, you know.
>Magic is very well established and I for one will not be spending large
>sums of money to fill my apartment with multitudes of cards for different
>games...I play magic and the most I would get for any toehr games will be
>a starter deck a couple boosters.
Nope, I didn't say people had to buy the new game, I stated those who were
interested in the game but got into it late, will go for the others because
they will be easier to obtain.
Lisa Richardson
>LR == Lisa Richardson <pr...@tcp.com>
>LR> There are some Legend Box Holders who are not selling below Retail, and
>LR> are sitting on them, waiting. It has happen before, and WotC has not
>LR> made an effort to stop it.
>What on earth would you recommend that they do? I can't think of any
>conceivable way to prevent people from hoarding unopened packs on
>speculation while preserving the spirit of MtG as a "collectible trading
>card game".
Easy. Print a 2nd run, lik Unlimited for the gamers a bit sporadically, so
you print 1.5 million and send them out into the public, while retaining
the Limted Black Borders for the collectors. The small number can be
diseminated so gamers will be happy. They can be ordered without killing
WotC or the Retailers. No loss of collectability and WotC can actually now
claim that they are ALSO for the gamer as well as the Collector.
Tom Wylie
>This is just a guess here, but it sounds like, for the purchasing company
>above, that the customers knew that Christmas stuff had to be ordered in the
>summer. This is not the case here. If Wizards had publicized that you
>should order cards in January or you might not get them, I would have no
>gripe.
WotC doesn't make any secret of what the preorder cutoff date is; anyone
who wants to know can find out what it is. I doubt anyone was expecting
in January that there would be this huge rush for Legends when it was
released, so it probably didn't occur to anyone that an "oh, by the way"
might be helpful.
>But if all they say is "Available in June", then the implication is that all
>you need to do is go down to your store in June and you'll be able to buy some
Well, that's idea, actually. It just happened to not work out that way
with Legends. As I've said over and over and over, the one-day release of
Legends is pretty much a fluke; you can almost certainly get away with not
preordering The Dark if you don't want to.
>- Legends is a limited edition. No more will be printed again, ever,
> according to WotC. I don't know what Cost Plus Imports sells, but I'm
> guessing that they would make more of whatever it is if there was the demand
> for it.
Not if it was a Limited Edition Christmas Vase or something. The key
distinction here is that Cost Plus' products are, by default, "unlimited",
whereas expansion sets are limited.
Chris Page
> In <page-240...@whitedwarf.sas.upenn.edu> pa...@student.physics.upenn.edu (Chris Page) writes:
>
> >Who says Carte Mundi can't print more cards?
>
> WotC and their Netreps. You guys stated that you can only print so many
> cards a month. If you divest your printing facilities to do 2 things, and
> later on, 3 things... You will not be able to dedicate your facilities to
> produce the number you would like to within a certain time period. Of
> course, when dealing with limited printings, you don't want to deal with
> small numbers in a short period of time.
You're right. I should have used the future tense. I should have
said, Who says Carte Mundi won't be able to print more cards in the
future?
>
> >The holdup is them having to build new sorting machines, which takes a
> >number of months.
>
> And when did they finally decide to start building the new sorting
> machines?
> --
A few months ago.
-Chris Page
pa...@student.physics.upenn.edu
Tom Wylie
>Netrunner and Jyhad are coming from the same company as Magic... They are
>not going to compete with Magic, they will end up replacing magic because
>if they make it just one massive print like they do with Magic, we will get
>rec.games.deckmaster.netrunner soon and rec.games.deckmaster.jyhad. Or we
"One massive print [run]?" What do you call Revised? Are you forgetting
that Antiquities came out in three shipments?
Netrunner and Jyhad are not, to my knowledge, going to replace Magic;
witness the expansion set due out in November. Splitting r.g.d. into
netrunner, jyhad, and magic subgroups would be kind of silly since the
name is .deckmaster, which is the product line, not .gathering or .magic
or anything like that. (In fact, as has been mentioned before, all trading
card games are welcome here.)
Tom Wylie
>In my area, Magic is not as available as it is in your area. WE got a few
>horders who lock it out for the rest of us. Those who are looking for an
>alternative that they can get on, they will buy Spellfire
"will" buy? Spellfire is already out. Be sure to let us know how
it does in your area.
If all the Magic in your area is being snapped up by hoarders, then perhaps
you should talk to the retailers. If *they* care about their customers
more than they do about profits, you should be able to talk them into
rationing cards somehow, since apparently they're going to sell out
no matter what.
>people asking about TNG. Sounds like they might be getting tired of Magic
>as well.
Or maybe they're just curious.
>Now, as for the Duelist listing other game products... So what?
We see no reason not to encourage the growth of the genre. Listing the
other products can only help, and the Duelist will have articles covering
other games as well.
Mark Hughes
: If you really want expansions, consider pre-ordering them. It may too late
By the time I heard pre-orders were being taken for Legends, they were
sold out of pre-orders. I work for a living, and I have a number of
other things that I like to do with my time. I do not intend to track
WotC's release schedule. And I don't have time to arrange over-priced
deals on the net.
I suppose I will just have to do without expansion cards. Is it
reasonable to tell my opponents that I will not play against a
deck that contains cards I do not have access to? Is anyone else
in the same situation?
Mark
Nathan Engle
>Andrew Brecher (ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu) wrote:
>: Magic is nowhere near the competitive market it
>: will be in two years, maybe even two months.
>Seems the same thing to me ----- The retailer knew when to make the
>order...Perhaps people should be complaining to their retailers at this
>point.
Yes, perhaps, except for the fact that complaining to the retailer isn't
going to do any good. At this point the retailers can't cause more Legends
cards to "magically" come into existence, but it's remotely possible that WotC
could.
>I don't read about people Flaming their retailers for ordering
>Conservatively, just flaming WotC for only printing the number of cards
>actually ordered.
As far as Bloomington is concerned, I believe the reason for that is
simple. We have 3 MtG outlets - the most recent arrival is Waldenbooks, and it
appears that they got into the retail loop too late to get any Legends - it's
tought to blame them. The other two outlets are both small comic book shops -
heavily undercapitalized and operating on shoe-string budgets. Neither of them
have the resources to engage in much MtG speculation so it's hard to blame
them either.
>Perhaps if the consumers that are being so upset would become a little more
>vocal to their RETAILERS, then maybe the retailer will know what to order
>next time. Of course this doesn't always work, as our DM refused to listen
>to everything that the staff had heard from people about Spellfire and he
>ordered tons of Spellfire....and we haven't sold any yet!!
Our local guys haven't bothered with Spellfire yet, so in that regard I
have to credit them with better than average market savvy. And as of yesterday
one of them actually got in 2 more boxes (!) of Legends which are now being
rationed out at *one* booster per customer per day. They probably won't last
the weekend (that is assuming they still have any now).
IMO I have no cause for gripes with our retailers.
--
Nathan Engle Electron Juggler
Indiana University Dept of Psychology
nen...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
"Vae Victis"