The Fall of Magic?
Karl J. Borst
Gathering. Yet the key to all of these discussions have been the
popularities of other games, with the suggestion that if people start playing
another game, that they will stop playing Magic. This is just silly. There
are lots of people, like myself, who play all of the games because we like
the genre. Yet I think that the death of Magic is still very possible, not
because of any game except Magic itself.
The problem is that in the pursuit of cash, WotC may kill Magic, completely
by mistake. Currently, there are over 1000 different Magic cards. There are
hundreds more in the works. Were I a person getting into Magic now, the sole
idea of having to spend literally thousands of dollars to actually have any
hope of getting the whole game would put me off. I'd just say to heck with
it.
Of course I'm sure that the current market of people who go bananas over each
new release could keep the game going even if noone else began playing. No,
to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or need
for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Why
was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it does
(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and costs
nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
Has WotC learned their lesson? Perhaps, but probobly not. As I sit here
typing I already know that there is a 300+ card set on the way (Ice Age),
that a whole slew of paperbacks are planned (each with cards) and that a
Comic Book series based on Magic is in the works (with covers by Charles
Vess!), no doubt this series will contain a new card with every issue. With
all of the basic combinations and card ideas used up, designers are trying to
push the envelope, producing cards that are even more powerful than the last
set or that introduce new ideas into the game (like the "tides" in Fallen
Empires). Is it not just a matter of time before more and more badly
designed cards appear?
What is the solution? All I can suggest is slow down. Put the expansion
sets out every four months instead of every two. No more 300+ card sets,
period. If you release a comic, don't put a card in every issue. Release
promo cards (like the Dragon) maybe twice a year.
And more than that, PLAYTEST longer. I mean work those cards to the bone.
Have one player use four, and another use none and watch the frustration
level rise. Look for degenerate uses. Try to find ways around those uses.
If you can't, scrap the card. Play special attention to artifacts and lands.
I love this game. I play constantly and when I'm not playing, I'm thinking
about new decks, new strategies, new combos. I would just hate to see it
drive itself into the ground.
Karl j Borst.
Sea Wasp
>The problem is that in the pursuit of cash, WotC may kill Magic, completely
>by mistake.
If they were just pursuing cash, they could be doing other things
to REALLY push it.
Currently, there are over 1000 different Magic cards. There are
>hundreds more in the works. Were I a person getting into Magic now, the sole
>idea of having to spend literally thousands of dollars to actually have any
>hope of getting the whole game would put me off. I'd just say to heck with
>it.
?
You lost me. To have the game, you need to get all the cards?
Look, I don't even have all the cards from the ORIGINAL set.
In fact, there are many cards from the original set I've never even
SEEN, including some of the ones people casually toss around here as
though "everybody has tons of these"...
You don't NEED all the cards to get the "whole game". The
whole game comes in a single pack of cards.
Now, if you're a COLLECTOR, then you need all the cards, but
that has nothing to do with playing it.
If you're in it to blow people away in tournaments, then you
don't need ALL the cards, you just need certain cards -- and WotC is
working right now, according to Tom, on rules which will simply
eliminate things like OOP cards from play, especially the "abusive"
cards like Black Lotus. Once those rules go into effect, the problem
of searching for those no-longer-printed "supercards" will fade
back to just an ordinary collector's thing.
Me, I want to PLAY A GAME.
Playing the game, unfortunately, isn't what I see discussed
most often. Mostly I see discussions on "what's the most devastating
card I can get" and "First-turn kill".
From my point of view, a first-turn kill isn't a game.
None of us have any fun with games like that. We like games which
are struggles of such length that you might well get to the bottom
of your deck. So I don't design decks o' death -- the superbajillion
fireballs, the Black-lotus-reconstruct-black lotus-channel-disintegrate,
you name it. Instead I design decks that have a solid concept and
see how well they play, and so do my opponents.
It's EASY to make decks which are killers, though often it's
easy to design a good defense. But such decks tend to reduce the kind
of games you see, and certainly eliminate the diversity.
Hmm, wandered a bit.
The point is that the GAME can't be killed by numbers of
cards. The only way it MIGHT get killed is if the obsessive killer
deckmakers insist on playing such decks EVERYWHERE THEY GO -- thus
forcing people who want to play to either escalate their own decks
or lose all the time. You want to know who could kill the game? Look
at your own group, and see what they play like. If they play for
fun, you're safe. But if in even friendly games you're trying to
slaughter the person in the most inescapably swift and merciless
fashion, you could be part of the problem.
>to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
>Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or need
>for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Why
>was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it does
>(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
>Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and costs
>nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
Restriction? Okay, yep, if you play in a tournament. I don't.
I have no intention to. And I've never played ANY game I liked in
a tournament. Nor do I have any interest in so doing.
Therefore, "stupid cards" or "restrictions" don't mean anything
to me. If a card's abusable, okay, we abuse it a couple of times and
get a laugh. Then we get bored with the superinstantkillercardfromhell,
and start playing real decks again. Now that's a GAME, as opposed to
a serious contest. I don't play tournaments because even if I DID
win, I wouldn't have much FUN in them. It's too serious. You're
not trying to have a simple game, you're trying to beat this person
and possibly this person REALLY WANTS THAT PRIZE or whatever, so
he's not interested in fun any more.
That's not a game. And to me, Magic should be a game. As
long as a goodly number of us keep it as a *game*, it won't ever
die out.
>What is the solution? All I can suggest is slow down. Put the expansion
>sets out every four months instead of every two. No more 300+ card sets,
>period. If you release a comic, don't put a card in every issue. Release
>promo cards (like the Dragon) maybe twice a year.
>And more than that, PLAYTEST longer. I mean work those cards to the bone.
>Have one player use four, and another use none and watch the frustration
>level rise. Look for degenerate uses. Try to find ways around those uses.
>If you can't, scrap the card. Play special attention to artifacts and lands.
They are slowing down, to some extent, from what I've gathered.
But playtesting more? You underestimate the complexity of the
task. Even if you assume that of all the cards previously made, only
one-tenth of them MIGHT interact "badly" with your new card, you have
about 100! [that's one hundred, factorial] possible combos.
Now, obviously, lots of those combos will be instantly ludicrous
and will actually never be considered. Nonetheless, the number of
test situations which would have to be used to REALLY playtest a card
would be truly hideous.
The reason that the Net finds out about abusive uses of cards
so fast is that you've now got, what, tens of thousands of players
suddenly searching for new uses. WotC might be able to scrape up
a number of playtesters equal roughly to one playtester per new
card for about three or four days of play. I say MIGHT -- I don't
know how much they can manage to playtest. But the difference of
both how many people play the card and how many play-hours it gets
is so huge that there is NOT any practical method for WotC to
give new cards the "Test to Destruction" that you want. Hell,
they playtested the original MtG cards about as well as they
could beforehand, and a LOT of the "restricted" cards are from
that list. No set of cards is likely to be more playtested than
those were.
I say, live with the new cards, enjoy them... and remember:
it is a GAME. Play it for fun, sometime.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
qua...@gary.com
IS> The reason that the Net finds out about abusive uses of cards
IS>so fast is that you've now got, what, tens of thousands of players
IS>suddenly searching for new uses. WotC might be able to scrape up
IS>a number of playtesters equal roughly to one playtester per new
IS>card for about three or four days of play. I say MIGHT -- I don't
IS>know how much they can manage to playtest. But the difference of
IS>both how many people play the card and how many play-hours it gets
IS>is so huge that there is NOT any practical method for WotC to
IS>give new cards the "Test to Destruction" that you want. Hell,
IS>they playtested the original MtG cards about as well as they
IS>could beforehand, and a LOT of the "restricted" cards are from
IS>that list. No set of cards is likely to be more playtested than
IS>those were.
What's so hard about taking the proposed new card text, photocopying it,
slapping it on the back of a basic land, and mailing it out to
playtesters? You don't have to pay for the art (yet), have carta mundi
print the things (yet), and if wotc can't find a couple of thousand
playtesters willing to do it free, they got problems.
(Heck, e-mail me the text, and I'll print it and paste it myself.)
For that matter, what is their current problem with cards? Has anyone
noticed that the serendib efreet is the wrong color? Maybe they should
tell carta mundi to fix that. Maybe they should change the lop text a
little bit. Maybe they could do it now, instead of waiting to the next
version of the revised edition.
---
þ WinQwk 2.0b#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy
*** Gary's Place BBS - 412 326-4039 - Internet e-mail and news ***
Twoflower
>to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
>Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or need
>for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Why
>was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it does
>(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
>Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and costs
>nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
I admit, players hate when I throw out my Maze of Ith, but there are ways
to counter it. Stone Rain and Fissure are the easiest, but it goes when
someone plays Armageddon. Enchantments that make cards into basic land
also hurt. It also has the nasty side effect of allowing the other player
to use whatever creature you untapped as defense. If it wasn't for that,
I'd agree that it's unbalancing.
While it's powerful, Maze of Ith is no Royal Assassin, Black Lotus, or
Soul Ring.
*----------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Todd Clark / sa...@halcyon.com | "you tiptoe through your lives |
| CitNet: Twoflower@The Fourth Tower| and pretend you're all so |
| Intermud: Raphael@Onyx | dangerous!" -frente |
*----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*-Finger me for the current Seattle/Bainbridge ferry schedule!-*
Stephen Swann
:
[ various topics ]
:
: From my point of view, a first-turn kill isn't a game.
:are struggles of such length that you might well get to the bottom
Yeah, I have a feeling we're in the minority, though. Fortunately, my
regular dueling partner agrees, too, and we've started implementing
some decjbuilding rules that will hopefully bring back some of those
long, crazy duels that used to happen back when we were only using 2
starter decks and a handful of a boosters.
:So I don't design decks o' death -- the superbajillion
:fireballs, the Black-lotus-reconstruct-black lotus-channel-disintegrate,
:you name it. Instead I design decks that have a solid concept and
:see how well they play, and so do my opponents.
Yep. Actually my favorites are the old standard 1/3 spells 1/3 creature
decks. Those decks generally:
(1) are most fun to play and to play against (by my own admittedly biased
standards, obviously)
(2) regularly get their asses kicked by the card denial or land destruction
decks that "experienced" players around here seem to prefer.
: It's EASY to make decks which are killers, though often it's
:easy to design a good defense. But such decks tend to reduce the kind
:of games you see, and certainly eliminate the diversity.
Yep. Most of the "consistently" winning decks that I've seen are
card denial, or land destruction, or unbelievably fast weenie
horde decks. Most games don't last past round 5 or 6. I really don't
enjoy that a lot. I like games that go for about 20 rounds, and have
lots of shifts in the balance of power.
: The point is that the GAME can't be killed by numbers of
:cards. The only way it MIGHT get killed is if the obsessive killer
:deckmakers insist on playing such decks EVERYWHERE THEY GO -- thus
:forcing people who want to play to either escalate their own decks
:or lose all the time. You want to know who could kill the game? Look
:at your own group, and see what they play like. If they play for
:fun, you're safe. But if in even friendly games you're trying to
:slaughter the person in the most inescapably swift and merciless
:fashion, you could be part of the problem.
Sheesh, you must have met the people at my local hobby shop here.
Needless to say, I seldom play there - they just love getting out
their killer decks to thrash the living shit out of a newbie. I'm not
even a total newbie; I've done a moderate amount of dueling, but it's
always been "friendly" games, between people who want to have a fun
duel, not somebody who just wants to beat you 17 times in a row with
mechanical efficiency and predictability. What fun!
(Oh, and by the way, Wizards of the Coast, THANK YOU so much for
all that wonderful card denial and land destruction stuff in FE,
I know those strategies were really falling behind in the eternal
race to sap the most enjoyment out of the game.)
--
Stephen Swann | Speak to me in many voices,
sw...@mercury.interpath.net | make them all sound like one... - BOC
David Mar
>Sea Wasp <sea...@telerama.lm.com> wrote:
>: From my point of view, a first-turn kill isn't a game.
>
You've found another person who agrees...
>[...] bring back some of those long, crazy duels that used to happen back
>when we were only using 2 starter decks and a handful of a boosters.
Yeah, now those were the days!
"Aaargh! I've got two of every basic land except mountains on the
table, and a handful of red spells!!"
>:Instead I design decks that have a solid concept and
>:see how well they play, and so do my opponents.
>
>Actually my favorites are the old standard 1/3 spells 1/3 creature decks.
My brother and I like to see "who can win most stylishly, or with the
wildest/unlikeliest card combo".
One evening I won 9 out of 10 duels, but the one I lost was because he
played: Mana Flare, Drain Power, Braingeyser, Fork and made me draw
50 cards (thus exhausting my library). His deck was designed around
waiting long enough to draw those four cards (he only has one of each),
and most of the other games he lost dismally. But he won the evening overall.
>(Oh, and by the way, Wizards of the Coast, THANK YOU so much for
>all that wonderful card denial and land destruction stuff in FE,
>I know those strategies were really falling behind in the eternal
>race to sap the most enjoyment out of the game.)
Come now, you and your regular duelling partners don't have to use
them. And there are heaps of fun cards like Rainbow Vale, Ebon
Praetor, Deep Spawn, Tidal Influence, Vodalian War Machine, Brassclaw
Orcs, Goblin Flotilla, Orgg.
Here's a trick: Have an Orgg as your only creature in play when
your opponent has a bunch of Brassclaw Orcs...
Kept us laughing (in various states of irony or delight) for ages. :-)
- David Mar.
m...@physics.su.oz.au http://www.physics.su.oz.au/~mar/dm.html
Astrophysics Department, University of Sydney NSW 2006, Australia.
Dennis K Lee
>to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
>Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or need
>for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Why
>was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it does
>(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
>Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and costs
>nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
While the maze of ith is powerful, you are only allowed 1/deck. It has changed
my strategy for playing though. I now include some sort of land destruction
in all my decks. Actually I made this change after FE when all these sacrificable
lands and land batteries came out. I don't think the Maze is a stupid card
and I don't mind it being restricted, I think everything worked out real well.
-dennis
---
Electrical Engineering | email: dek...@uncc.edu
University of North Carolina at Charlotte |
Charlotte, North Carolina |
For those with NCSA MOSAIC:
http://www.coe.uncc.edu/~deklee/index.html
Stephen Swann
:sw...@mercury.interpath.net (Stephen Swann) writes:
:
:>(Oh, and by the way, Wizards of the Coast, THANK YOU so much for
:>all that wonderful card denial and land destruction stuff in FE,
:>I know those strategies were really falling behind in the eternal
:>race to sap the most enjoyment out of the game.)
:Come now, you and your regular duelling partners don't have to use
:them. And there are heaps of fun cards like Rainbow Vale, Ebon
:Praetor, Deep Spawn, Tidal Influence, Vodalian War Machine, Brassclaw
:Orcs, Goblin Flotilla, Orgg.
This is all true, I think the FE expansion is quite good, generally
speaking. It's just that the card denial and land destruction aspect
of the game is very pronounced when dealing with anyone around here
*other* than my regular dueling partner. And adding more cards to
that arsenal makes it that much more unlikely that I'll *ever* have
any fun playing against strangers. I mean, I could build a c-d or l-d
deck, too, but I hate playing them as much as I hate playing against
them. It just sucks that they're such winning strategies that they
keep cropping up.
RYAN DOUGLAS AMOS
: In article <3clfud$r...@tusk.lm.com>, Sea Wasp <sea...@telerama.lm.com> wrote:
: :
: [ various topics ]
: :
: : From my point of view, a first-turn kill isn't a game.
: :None of us have any fun with games like that. We like games which
: :are struggles of such length that you might well get to the bottom
: :of your deck. [...]
: Yeah, I have a feeling we're in the minority, though. Fortunately, my
: regular dueling partner agrees, too, and we've started implementing
: some decjbuilding rules that will hopefully bring back some of those
: long, crazy duels that used to happen back when we were only using 2
: starter decks and a handful of a boosters.
I agree with you guys. Add to the minority, and soon we'll be the
majority.
: :So I don't design decks o' death -- the superbajillion
: :fireballs, the Black-lotus-reconstruct-black lotus-channel-disintegrate,
: :you name it. Instead I design decks that have a solid concept and
: :see how well they play, and so do my opponents.
: Yep. Actually my favorites are the old standard 1/3 spells 1/3 creature
: decks. Those decks generally:
: (1) are most fun to play and to play against (by my own admittedly biased
: standards, obviously)
: (2) regularly get their asses kicked by the card denial or land destruction
: decks that "experienced" players around here seem to prefer.
I think that the best way to play Magic, is where the decks are
even. The same goes for Star Trek, if anyone here plays it. I mean I
own a lot of those rare cards that usually make up a quick-kill deck, but
I never use them. I would rather put in some fun cards, I love killing my
friends with the Giant Turtle. The other thing that I hate when we play
our tournament decks is that they hardly hold any variety, because of the
60 card minimum, which in a tournament deck, is how many cards everyone
plays with. I love thoe half-a-foot-high decks! You never know what is
going to come up next, so it is fun and interesting. That is why I hate
DECK STACKING! That drives me nuts!
: : It's EASY to make decks which are killers, though often it's
: :easy to design a good defense. But such decks tend to reduce the kind
: :of games you see, and certainly eliminate the diversity.
: Yep. Most of the "consistently" winning decks that I've seen are
: card denial, or land destruction, or unbelievably fast weenie
: horde decks. Most games don't last past round 5 or 6. I really don't
: enjoy that a lot. I like games that go for about 20 rounds, and have
: lots of shifts in the balance of power.
The best way to play the game is multiplayer! We love to get those 4
hour matches with up to ten people playing. They are so much fun, you watch
alliances get formed, and broken in a matter of turns. It adds a whole
new level to the game.
: : The point is that the GAME can't be killed by numbers of
: :cards. The only way it MIGHT get killed is if the obsessive killer
: :deckmakers insist on playing such decks EVERYWHERE THEY GO -- thus
: :forcing people who want to play to either escalate their own decks
: :or lose all the time. You want to know who could kill the game? Look
: :at your own group, and see what they play like. If they play for
: :fun, you're safe. But if in even friendly games you're trying to
: :slaughter the person in the most inescapably swift and merciless
: :fashion, you could be part of the problem.
: Sheesh, you must have met the people at my local hobby shop here.
: Needless to say, I seldom play there - they just love getting out
: their killer decks to thrash the living shit out of a newbie. I'm not
: even a total newbie; I've done a moderate amount of dueling, but it's
: always been "friendly" games, between people who want to have a fun
: duel, not somebody who just wants to beat you 17 times in a row with
: mechanical efficiency and predictability. What fun!
I usually carry a tournament deck, and a non-tournament one with me
at all times. I prefer playing the non-tourney one, but it gets killed
against other tourney decks, so I am forced to play with my tourney one.
: (Oh, and by the way, Wizards of the Coast, THANK YOU so much for
: all that wonderful card denial and land destruction stuff in FE,
: I know those strategies were really falling behind in the eternal
: race to sap the most enjoyment out of the game.)
I agree again. But, there is also some fun creature cards in FE, as
long as you have the counters. I mean, why didn't they include some
counters in each booster if they were going to make it necessary for all
that! I don't usually have enough change anymore to account for the
number of counters in a FE deck.
Michele Coleman
Stephen Swann <sw...@mercury.interpath.net> wrote:
>Yeah, I have a feeling we're in the minority, though. Fortunately, my
>regular dueling partner agrees, too, and we've started implementing
>some decjbuilding rules that will hopefully bring back some of those
>long, crazy duels that used to happen back when we were only using 2
>starter decks and a handful of a boosters.
Around here a small group has formed a league.
We each started with a starter deck, one or two Revised
boosters, and one or two Legends boosters (can't remember
exact numbers). We opened the cards, traded, and started
play. Every four weeks we each added either one 15-card
booster or two 8-card boosters. After about five months
we got tired of it, since the decks had become settled
and somewhat predictable, and the number of cards was large
enough to not be a serious limitation anymore. Soon we
will start again, with fewer cards to start with. Also,
there will be two leagues: an Iron league, in which no
trading is allowed, and a Gold league, which allows trading.
All of our matches are played for best out of three
duels, and each match is played for ante. We do not observe
Convocation deck-building rules: the limited pool of cards
is a natural impediment to killer, abusive decks.
The most important rule: cards enter the league only
in sealed packs. Cards may be traded only within the league,
but for the duration of the league no cards leave the league.
At the conclusion, everyone's decks and tradestocks are
retired to their general collection. Also, we allowed
trading only on official league nights, although members
could play matches any time. This ensured that people who
saw each other frequently didn't have an unfair advantage
when it came to getting in on the good trades.
All in all a fun experience which I highly recommend.
It's a good way to even things out between newer and older
players; the older players have the advantage of more
experience, but not of a suitcase of cards. And it has
been rather amusing to see the feeding frenzy that a
card like Pyrotechnics (Legends common, which I bought
outside the league for 20 cents) can touch off when it
goes up for trade.
--Michele Coleman
Dennis F. Hefferman
|(Oh, and by the way, Wizards of the Coast, THANK YOU so much for
|all that wonderful card denial and land destruction stuff in FE,
|I know those strategies were really falling behind in the eternal
|race to sap the most enjoyment out of the game.)
What he said.
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: FuzyLogic heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"They feed you on the guilt to keep you humble, keep you low/Some man and myth
they made up a thousand years ago." -- "Silent Legacy", Melissa Etheridge
da...@cybercom.com
IS>>to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
IS>>Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or ne
IS>>for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Wh
IS>>was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it doe
IS>>(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
IS>>Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and cos
IS>>nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
IS>I admit, players hate when I throw out my Maze of Ith, but there are ways
IS>to counter it. Stone Rain and Fissure are the easiest, but it goes when
IS>someone plays Armageddon. Enchantments that make cards into basic land
IS>also hurt. It also has the nasty side effect of allowing the other player
IS>to use whatever creature you untapped as defense. If it wasn't for that,
IS>I'd agree that it's unbalancing.
IS>While it's powerful, Maze of Ith is no Royal Assassin, Black Lotus, or
IS>Soul Ring.
And contrary to the previous poster's comment, Ebony Horse and the Maze
are in fact slightly different. The Horse removes something from combat,
while the Maze doesn't...very important for those Lured Basilisk attacks
(as the opponents creatures are nuked and the Basilisk stays). Yes, a
powerful card, but you're right: ways to counter it balance out.
---
ş SLMR 2.1a ş Computer, microwave decks 5-10 until piping hot. [BEEP!]
David Butler
Well, I personally think that some of the cards listed above are very good,
but as for the rest of the set, I thought it sucked. I really don't like
cards that take millions of counters, etc. Just look back on the quality
of the expansion sets... Arabian nights, still my favorite one, used hardly
any counters, if any at all.... it was just a simple set, with fun things
that last for a turn (such as wyluli wolf)... I don't like all these things
that make you keep track of saprolings, and spore counters...
Anyway, enough of my mindless complaining... Just thought I would
mention that not all weenie horde decks are evil... I designed mine
specifically to outlast an opponent, and make the game interesting....
today in a local tournament, a guy had me down to 3 points, and he was at
25.... I killed his evil, huge, honkin' Serra angel, and slowly chopped him
up... and the game had already been going for 30 minutes... just my little
ponderings on life...
Tom Christiansen
:Just look back on the quality
:of the expansion sets... Arabian nights, still my favorite one, used hardly
:any counters, if any at all....
Bottle of Suleiman
Cyclone
Khabal Ghoul
Rukh Egg
Unstable Mutation
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen Perl Consultant, Gamer, Hiker tch...@mox.perl.com
I am Giant Slug of Borg: Resistance is futile. I will -land walk...
har...@ulogic.com
RYAN DOUGLAS AMOS <ra9...@badger.ac.BrockU.CA> wrote:
>
> I agree again. But, there is also some fun creature cards in FE, as
>long as you have the counters. I mean, why didn't they include some
>counters in each booster if they were going to make it necessary for all
>that! I don't usually have enough change anymore to account for the
>number of counters in a FE deck.
Counter suggestions:
Pogs -- one fad drafted into service of another
Smarties -- great counters, but they keep disappearing...
-rmh
Jay Elmore
Karl J. Borst <Karl_J...@magic.ca> wrote:
>Of course I'm sure that the current market of people who go bananas over each
>new release could keep the game going even if noone else began playing. No,
>to kill the game WotC would have to release more stupid cards. I define
>Stupid Cards as cards that are so poorly thought out that their abuse or need
>for restriction becomes inevitable. A good example is the Maze of Ith. Why
>was this card ever created? There already was a card which did what it does
>(Ebony Horse) which is balanced by a high casting cost and usage cost. The
>Maze of Ith on the other hand has no casting cost, is uncounterable and costs
>nothing to use. It is completely unbalanced. Instant restriction.
Actually, there are a couple of minor differences between Maze of Ith and
Ebony Horse; Ebony Horse protects the target creature from all effects of
attacking; the target is treated as if it had never been chosen to attack.
A Maze of Ith simply untaps the creature and says that it neither deals
nor receives damage as a result of combat. "As a result of combat" to me
means the damage done to attacking creatures by blockers and vice versa.
It says nothing about, say, doing a point of damage with a Desert, or
using a Thicket Basilisk/Cockatrice/Vemoned creature to block that
creature and destroy it.
Since the effect of the Maze of Ith is not as far-ranging as an Ebony
Horse, its activation cost is less than the Horse's.
As for why they made it a land, I dunno; I posted a brief treatise as to
the pros and cons of making a card a land (can't be countered, can't lose
control, but you can only lay it down at the expense of a "normal" land
and it suffers all of the vulnerabilities of a land) but the judgement to
make a card a land (as opposed to an enchantment or an artifact) rests
with the designers.
You want to take all of these non-basic lands out of play? Simple. Blood
Moon. (Add Conversion to taste.)
Jay (=
--
John W. "Jay" Elmore Jr. | "I've been ionized...
jel...@netcom.com | but I'm OK now."
or jel...@nyx.cs.du.edu | --Dr. E. Banzai
A wandering maniac...
As counters, someone keeps a Ziploc bag of pennies in the middle of
the table/floor/whereever we're playing. Simple...
--
"Who, me? I didn't say anything."
DISCLAIMER: The Devil made me do it!
Joeseph Angelo
Saw the Post and decided to respond
I also play more then not in Mutli-Player Games
either in Teams or In cut-throats
( I play a lot of the above because the 2 cafes I got o each get pack
with about 80 - 100 persons and there is only so much horizontal space
avaiable to play on so I always invite persons to join my table)
if I play CutThroat I tend to play a Pure Blue with 4 Energy Flux Cards
lots of Permission and Seasingers
But in Teams I pul out a Red / White Deck full of small firebreathing
FLiers and Sunglasses
in one on one duals you lose a bit of the variation that comes up in a
larger game
Its one thing to play against one person with killer decks but when a
person playing a killer deck faces 2 opponents of moderate power he can
at times be easily over whelmed just due to his color
but was curious on what type of deck you prefer to play either in team or
Cutthroat play ,,, more so in the Cutthroat
thnx
Joe
RYAN DOUGLAS AMOS (ra9...@badger.ac.BrockU.CA) wrote:
Joseph A Kopra
will be made, sorry for any inconveinience.
I have the following cards open for auction, those cards w/ my
address are to be considered MINIMUM bids. The selection is limited,
but the prices are fair. Thanks for your time. Joe.
*** All cards are mint unless oterwise noted ***
Land
Dwarven Ruins (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Artifacts
Delif's Cube (FE) $1.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Glasses of Urza (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Jade Monolith (RV) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Onulet (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Zelyon Sword (FE) $2.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Black
Animate Dead (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Demonic Tutor (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Thrull Retainer (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Blue
Energy Flux (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Homarid Spawning Bed (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sinbad (AR) $1.50 st...@nevada.edu
Svyelunite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Tidal Influence (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Green
Desert Twister (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Regrowth (RV) $2.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Theldon's Curse (FE) $1.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Timber Wolves (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Tsunami (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Wall of Ice (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
WanderLust (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Red
Chaos Lace (RV) $1.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Orchish Artillery (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Raiding Party (FE) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
White
Farmstead (RV) $0.50 st...@nevada.edu
Farrelite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Icatian Priest (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Karma (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Resurrection (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
RULES
(1)- All bids to be sent to jak0875@@cs.rit.edu with the subject BIDS
(2)- Bids may NOT be withdrawn, and you are asked to please honour any bids
which are made
(3)- Bids are to be made in increments of .25 (.25, .50, .75 etc higher
than previous bid). Bids are in US dollar values
(4)- Common sense will prevail. If there are any questions, please don't
hesitate to e-mail me.
(5)- Bids will be accepted until 12:01 AM, Jan 26th. Bids received after
this date will be considered invalid.
(6)- Minimum Bids must be met or exceeded to be eligible.
(7)- Updates will be posted Fridays and Mondays. (I reserve the right to
post more)
(8)- Postage will be charged for any orders totalling less than $1.00;
Outside US and especially large or 'strange' orders shall be
handled on an individual basis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kopra
Rochester Institute of Technology
jak...@cs.rit.edu
URL: http://ultb.rit.edu/~jak0875/
"Violence: The last refuge of the incompetent"
- Dr. Issac Asimov
-------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph A Kopra
will be made, sorry for any inconveinience.
I have the following cards open for auction, those cards w/ my
address are to be considered MINIMUM bids. The selection is limited,
but the prices are fair. Thanks for your time. Joe.
*** All cards are mint unless oterwise noted ***
Land
Dwarven Ruins (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Artifacts
Delif's Cube (FE) $1.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Glasses of Urza (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Jade Monolith (RV) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Onulet (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Zelyon Sword (FE) $2.00 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Black
Animate Dead (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Demonic Tutor (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Thrull Retainer (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Blue
Energy Flux (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 st...@nevada.edu
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 st...@nevada.edu
Homarid Spawning Bed (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sinbad (AR) $1.75 zaja...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Svyelunite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Tidal Influence (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Green
Desert Twister (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Regrowth (RV) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Theldon's Curse (FE) $1.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Timber Wolves (RV) $0.75 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Tsunami (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Wall of Ice (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
WanderLust (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Red
Chaos Lace (RV) $1.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Orchish Artillery (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Raiding Party (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
White
Farmstead (RV) $0.50 st...@nevada.edu
Farrelite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Icatian Priest (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Karma (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Resurrection (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
RULES
(1)- All bids to be sent to jak0875@@cs.rit.edu with the subject BIDS
(2)- Bids may NOT be withdrawn, and you are asked to please honour any bids
which are made
(3)- Bids are to be made in increments of .25 (.25, .50, .75 etc higher
than previous bid). Bids are in US dollar values
(4)- Common sense will prevail. If there are any questions, please don't
hesitate to e-mail me.
(5)- Bids will be accepted until 12:01 AM, Jan 26th. Bids received after
this date will be considered invalid.
(6)- Minimum Bids must be met or exceeded to be eligible.
(7)- Updates will be posted Fridays and Mondays. (I reserve the right to
post more)
(8)- Postage will be charged for any orders totalling less than $1.00;
Outside US and especially large or 'strange' orders shall be
handled on an individual basis.
Note: Bids are updated via the order received by my mailer. Sorry if
this causes outside-US delays.
Joseph William Dixon
crap only belongs in r.g.t-c.marketplace... Why do people have to be
such idiots?
--
* Check out this URL for some links I like to use. *
* http://www.cfn.cs.dal.ca/~aa343/Profile.html *
Joseph A Kopra
will be made, sorry for any inconveinience.
I have the following cards open for auction, those cards w/ my
address are to be considered MINIMUM bids. The selection is limited,
but the prices are fair. Thanks for your time. Joe.
*** All cards are mint unless oterwise noted ***
Land
Dwarven Ruins (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Artifacts
Delif's Cube (FE) $1.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Glasses of Urza (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Jade Monolith (RV) $1.25 lm_...@PAVO.Concordia.CA
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Library of Leng (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Onulet (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Zelyon Sword (FE) $2.00 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Black
Animate Dead (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Demonic Tutor (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Thrull Retainer (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Blue
Energy Flux (RV) $0.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 st...@nevada.edu
Homarid Shaman (FE) $1.50 st...@nevada.edu
Homarid Spawning Bed (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sage of Lat-Nam (AQ) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
SeaSinger (FE) $1.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Sinbad (AR) $2.25 lm_...@PAVO.Concordia.CA
Svyelunite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Tidal Influence (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Green
Desert Twister (RV) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Instill Energy (RV) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Regrowth (RV) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Theldon's Curse (FE) $1.25 Lm_...@Pavo.Concordia.Ca
Timber Wolves (RV) $1.00 st...@nevada.edu
Tsunami (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Wall of Ice (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
WanderLust (RV) $0.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Red
Chaos Lace (RV) $1.25 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Goblin Kites (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Orchish Artillery (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Raiding Party (FE) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
White
Farmstead (RV) $0.75 lm_...@PAVO.Concordia.CA
Farrelite Priest (FE) $1.00 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Heroism (FE) $0.50 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Icatian Priest (FE) $0.75 jak...@cs.rit.edu
Karma (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
Resurrection (RV) $0.25 st...@nevada.edu
RULES
(1)- All bids to be sent to jak0875@@cs.rit.edu with the subject BIDS
(2)- Bids may NOT be withdrawn, and you are asked to please honour any bids
which are made
(3)- Bids are to be made in increments of .25 (.25, .50, .75 etc higher
than previous bid). Bids are in US dollar values
(4)- Common sense will prevail. If there are any questions, please don't
hesitate to e-mail me.
(5)- Bids will be accepted until 12:01 AM, Jan 26th. Bids received after
this date will be considered invalid.
(6)- Minimum Bids must be met or exceeded to be eligible.
(7)- Updates will be posted Fridays and Mondays. (I reserve the right to
post more)
(8)- Postage will be charged for any orders totalling less than $1.00;
Outside US and especially large or 'strange' orders shall be
handled on an individual basis.
Note: Bids are updated via the order received by my mailer. Sorry if
this causes outside-US delays.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph William Dixon
do not belong anywhere other than rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace, or
perhaps rec.games.deckmaster.marketplace (if it still exists).