Extended SI Plot?

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kar...@my-deja.com

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Oct 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/15/99
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I read recently that their was originally an extended plot that was
supposed to take place after the banes were released in Serpent Isle,
but was cut out due to time limitations (instead, they just killed
everyone in the game). Does anyone know what this plot was about?


What was Cat Isle intended for in the game? I read it was going to be
part of the plot, but was instead used for a cheat area instead.
As well, what was the additional art work that was missing? (ie Ratman
portrait?)

Finally, a few years ago before I played Serpent Isle, I could have
sworn I saw a screen shot somewhere showing a character portrait of a
serpent creature. When I started playing Serpent Isle, I assumed that
I would eventually find the serpent people that used to worship the
Three Etheral Serpents. I am crazy, or was there an actual screen shot
that showed this?
(Just for clarification, who made all of the serpent ruins: the
ophidians, or the serpent race (if there was one)?)

Thanks alot,

Sutek Dragon


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

rus...@wku.edu

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Oct 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/17/99
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In article <7u80st$2r2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kar...@my-deja.com writes:
> I read recently that their was originally an extended plot that was
> supposed to take place after the banes were released in Serpent Isle,
> but was cut out due to time limitations (instead, they just killed
> everyone in the game). Does anyone know what this plot was about?

Here's what I can remember. I need to find my old information to
verify this, but I will go out on a limb and try without it. I only
had sparse information to begin with.

Basically, each Bane was supposed to go and take control of each city.
Iolo was suppose to go to Fawn, and put the captains on trial for some
reason. Dupre was supposed to be in control of Monitor (I'm not sure
what he was supposed to do). Shamino "the Anarch" (of course) was
supposed to be in control of Moonshade and torture the mages. If you
enter cheat mode you can find evidence for all of this. There are
letters from Iolo to the Avatar that you can read that aren't
accessible in the game. They talk about what Iolo is doing in Fawn.
Shamino also issues some sort of Decree. I can't remember what it was
though. You can also look in the Usecode and find some conversations
that are not in the game.



>
> What was Cat Isle intended for in the game? I read it was going to be
> part of the plot, but was instead used for a cheat area instead.
> As well, what was the additional art work that was missing? (ie Ratman
> portrait?)

To be honest, I'm not sure, but I do know that there was supposed to
be another Kilrathi (from Wing Commander) subplot. Remember the Hoe
of Destruction plot with the Kilrathi space fighter in the farmer's
corn field in BG? The Kilrathi may have a great deal to do with Cat
(some
people call it Claw) Isle, or it may not. As I recall, there is a book
that can be found in the game without cheating that talks about a
scientist or wizard that experimented on cats. I believed it mentioned
something about the cats glowing and also their nine lives. There is
another piece of evidence that MAY have been a part of Cat Isle's
plot. In the Silver Seed there is a Cat Creature that's supposed to
help you through one of the mazes. I would BET that he was originally
ment to be a part of the Cat Isle plot.
One more thing about the Kilrathi, since they were both in U7 BG, and
Underworld 2 (Devolved as they were). I would say they were also at
least ment to have a cameo appearance in SI.

I've only heard about the Ratman portrait, but have never seen it. My
guess is that it was probably suppose to be the Head Ratman. But with
as many subplots as they thought about having in this game, I would
say that there were probably supposed to be some talking Ratmen.
Notice that they had their own civilization (I think) underneathe
moonshade. Hmmm... could the Ratmen have originally been intended to
have some sort of spat with the Cat People. If a choas scientist
created an inteligent Ratman, and they caused problems, would they
create an inteligent Catman to counteract them. I thought of
that just now, so that part is ONLY speculation.

The artwork on the back of the SI box shows what was later said by
Origin to be just concept artwork, but not in the game. There was the
BIG sea turtle with gold Automatons and Dark Monks on it fighting the
Avatar who had many characters in his party that he couldn't have in
the real game. There was also a Gold colored serpent shield on the
back of the turtle that was not in the game. Also on the back of the
box was an inventory character portrait of the female trainer in
Monitor. If it was just art work that wasn't actually coded, fine, but
if it wasn't intended to be in the game, then it shouldn't have been on
the back of the box.

> Finally, a few years ago before I played Serpent Isle, I could have
> sworn I saw a screen shot somewhere showing a character portrait of a
> serpent creature. When I started playing Serpent Isle, I assumed that
> I would eventually find the serpent people that used to worship the
> Three Etheral Serpents. I am crazy, or was there an actual screen shot
> that showed this?

I don't know about this one. It could have been Dupre with a Choas
Serpent head? It seems with SI much is possible. There are Ophidian
ruins in various locations. The Ophidian ruins on Monk Isle were
supposed to have something to do with a plot. I think there is a key
to be found there that doesn't open anything in the game.

Here's another question. Are the Nagas related to the former Serpent
People? Or are they just another Scientific experiment or something
else? Let's see we have Catpeople, Ratmen, and Naga's all are half
human. However, the Nagas even have a somewhat blank and undeveloped
(by the programmers) temple. Their temple is that building that looks
like a bunch of long gray dark steps. I think it has bars for walls.
Now tell me if the Naga could build that on their own, why didn't they
have one single line in SI? Two words PLOT CUT, and I have no idea
what that plot was supposed to be about.

One more thing if you get the graphics viewer from Micro Dragon's
site, you can look at the artwork of the game. There is a character
portrait of one of those green and purple Choas constructs (the ones
they created to fight Order's Automatons). Once again, yes I think
that they were supposed to have a larger part in the game, however
this portrait may have not been ment to have been used in the game,
mainly because it's giving you the finger..... A joke for us who like
to look at things that the companies don't want us to?....

> (Just for clarification, who made all of the serpent ruins: the
> ophidians, or the serpent race (if there was one)?)

I would guess the serpent race. The Ophidians seemed to have come
along and adopted their culture.

> Thanks alot,
>
> Sutek Dragon

No problem. This game was ment to be so big that I'm not suprised
that they scrapped some things because of time. It's now up to us to
see if we can get as much material as was left over from Origin as
possible. There are a lot of really good programmers here that could
probably put it all together if they had the source code, and the
other missing files. I'm a completist who desires everything to be
complete as far as games. That's why I would LOVE to see Origin
release whatever left-over unused files they have from previous
Ultimas in the Dragon Edition. Don't get me started on U8.....or you
might. There's more than likely very little more money to be made
from these old games anyway. Of course they can continue to release
them as shovelware (unmodernized old games), but it's getting to the
point where the operatings systems may not run them in the near
future, so why not release whatever they have for die-hard fans?

Okay I'll shut-up now,

Grimlock (Run at the mouth) Dragon

Dan Simpson

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Oct 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/18/99
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On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:19:48 +0400, Maxim S. Shatskih (maxim__s@mtu-
net.ru) says...
<snip>

> The one-eyed Shazzana? BTW - what is her NPC ID?
> If it is very small (like 5-6-7) - it's a good idea to think that she was
> originally a
> companion.

Shazzana's NPC ID is 74. Althought that probably doesn't mean anything
since Boydon is 34. What I find most interesting is that Andrio is
number 4 on the NPC list, and if you force him into the party (IIRC) he
has a Paper Doll Inventory picture (unlike everyone else who, if you
force to join, have no heads).

--
Dan Simpson
Tasumusu Dragon
many...@hotmail.com
ICQ: 185116

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
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> Shamino also issues some sort of Decree. I can't remember what it was
> though. You can also look in the Usecode and find some conversations
> that are not in the game.

He start distributing certificates which allow (and even require) the holder
to
commit robbery, murder etc.

> people call it Claw) Isle, or it may not. As I recall, there is a book
> that can be found in the game without cheating that talks about a
> scientist or wizard that experimented on cats. I believed it mentioned

Yes, there is such book in Moonshade. AFAIR in Columna's basement - or
maybe in her house.
(you can detemine the book's Quality by the usecode disassembler & then
search the whole world fot it using U7Wizard).

> box was an inventory character portrait of the female trainer in
> Monitor. If it was just art work that wasn't actually coded, fine, but

The one-eyed Shazzana? BTW - what is her NPC ID?


If it is very small (like 5-6-7) - it's a good idea to think that she was
originally a
companion.

> human. However, the Nagas even have a somewhat blank and undeveloped


> (by the programmers) temple. Their temple is that building that looks
> like a bunch of long gray dark steps. I think it has bars for walls.

Do you mean the blackrock stair-like building not far from the Mint & the
explosive maker factory (with the hierophant ghost in it)?

> Now tell me if the Naga could build that on their own, why didn't they
> have one single line in SI? Two words PLOT CUT, and I have no idea
> what that plot was supposed to be about.

Not necessary. A similar question - who was Selwyn in U7BG?
Do you mean that U7BG's plot was also cut in this place?

>
> One more thing if you get the graphics viewer from Micro Dragon's
> site, you can look at the artwork of the game. There is a character
> portrait of one of those green and purple Choas constructs (the ones
> they created to fight Order's Automatons). Once again, yes I think

Well, do you mean this very nasty, very distorted green face with different
eyes which is in the end of the faces library - near the brown-haired girl
with a rim in her hair (who is she?), near Rotoluncia's scroll & Boydon's
head?
This is one of the 2 unknown images in the faces library - the other is a
thing
looking a bit like Wisp, a bit like cobweb...

> > (Just for clarification, who made all of the serpent ruins: the
> > ophidians, or the serpent race (if there was one)?)
>
> I would guess the serpent race. The Ophidians seemed to have come
> along and adopted their culture.

Who is the Serpent Race? Were they there at the times of U1?
Maybe Nagas are their remnants?

Max

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
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> Shazzana's NPC ID is 74. Althought that probably doesn't mean anything
> since Boydon is 34.

And Frigidazzi is 20, Rotoluncia is 31....
Yes. Looks like this was important in BG only, not SI.

What I find most interesting is that Andrio is
> number 4 on the NPC list, and if you force him into the party (IIRC) he
> has a Paper Doll Inventory picture (unlike everyone else who, if you
> force to join, have no heads).

Great! I have tried this with Rotoluncia (headless inventory view, Ztats
screen
OK) and with Vasculio (game hangs on Ztats or Inventory).

Max

Larryboy Dragon

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
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{mega-snip}

> No problem. This game was ment to be so big that I'm not suprised
> that they scrapped some things because of time. It's now up to us to
> see if we can get as much material as was left over from Origin as
> possible.
> There are a lot of really good programmers here that could
> probably put it all together if they had the source code, and the
> other missing files.

O, o,o! Yes please. The U7 wizard is quite a long way in, I thought. The
program lets you scroll about, talk to npcs, etc.

> I'm a completist who desires everything to be
> complete as far as games.

The Main problem (I think) is we miss out on a great story.
Plus, one of the reasons U7-BG was so great is the sub-plots that don't have
anything to do with the plot. They are just there to make the story richer.

On a off note, I noticed that in SI you have no resarection spell. If you
could only get it back, you could resarect the towns people. Hmmmmmmmm.

> That's why I would LOVE to see Origin
> release whatever left-over unused files they have from previous
> Ultimas in the Dragon Edition. Don't get me started on U8.....or you
> might.

I'd like to try!

U8 was a much better game then some might have us belive. However there was
just to much missing because they rushed. One reason I don't mind U:A being
late is U8/SI. They were both rushed and so were cut to shredds (U8 more
then SI, I think).

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
to
> O, o,o! Yes please. The U7 wizard is quite a long way in, I thought. The
> program lets you scroll about, talk to npcs, etc.

Talk???? Maybe I have some ancient version...

> On a off note, I noticed that in SI you have no resarection spell. If you
> could only get it back, you could resarect the towns people.

There is a Hourglass of Fate. BTW - how Nicodemus's hourglass ended on
the Monk Isle?

Max

rus...@wku.edu

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
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In article <7ufvcb$9o9$1...@ns.mtu.ru>, "Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxi...@mtu-net.ru> writes:

> (Shamino) He start distributing certificates which allow (and even require) the holder


> to
> commit robbery, murder etc.

As vendictive as some of the mages felt about each other, I would
imagine that some of them would have great joy about that.

>> people call it Claw) Isle, or it may not. As I recall, there is a book
>> that can be found in the game without cheating that talks about a
>> scientist or wizard that experimented on cats. I believed it mentioned
>

> Yes, there is such book in Moonshade. AFAIR in Columna's basement - or
> maybe in her house.
> (you can detemine the book's Quality by the usecode disassembler & then
> search the whole world fot it using U7Wizard).

If only I had a working computer instead of the university's compurter...

>> box was an inventory character portrait of the female trainer in
>> Monitor. If it was just art work that wasn't actually coded, fine, but

> The one-eyed Shazzana? BTW - what is her NPC ID?

I don't know right now.

>
<Snip> Naga Temple



> Do you mean the blackrock stair-like building not far from the Mint & the
> explosive maker factory (with the hierophant ghost in it)?

Yes.

>> Now tell me if the Naga could build that on their own, why didn't they
>> have one single line in SI? Two words PLOT CUT, and I have no idea
>> what that plot was supposed to be about.
>

> Not necessary. A similar question - who was Selwyn in U7BG?
> Do you mean that U7BG's plot was also cut in this place?

I don't know. It has been a while since I have played U7BG. It's not
as fresh in my mind as SI.

>> One more thing if you get the graphics viewer from Micro Dragon's
>> site, you can look at the artwork of the game. There is a character
>> portrait of one of those green and purple Choas constructs (the ones
>> they created to fight Order's Automatons). Once again, yes I think
>

> Well, do you mean this very nasty, very distorted green face with different
> eyes which is in the end of the faces library - near the brown-haired girl
> with a rim in her hair (who is she?), near Rotoluncia's scroll & Boydon's
> head?

Yes, That is what the green and purple creatures found in some of the
temples is supposed to look like up close. I'd have to look at the
portrait of the brown-haired girl to see if I could identify her. The Ratman portrait (which
I want to see) was not included in these files. There was a rumor
that it was cut.



> Who is the Serpent Race? Were they there at the times of U1?
> Maybe Nagas are their remnants?

Both of these are possible. I havn't had the chance to look into
Ultima Online: The Second Age, but I think that it may have the Sepent
race in it. I may be wrong though.

Grimlock Dragon

rus...@wku.edu

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Oct 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/19/99
to
> U8 was a much better game then some might have us belive. However there was
> just to much missing because they rushed. One reason I don't mind U:A being
> late is U8/SI. They were both rushed and so were cut to shredds (U8 more
> then SI, I think).

Some missing things off the top of my head..... The ghost ship which
was on the map is one. The entire Water quest (Tempestry) was drastically
shortened. I would bet that the apprentices at Argentock Isle were
originally ment to be in the Tempest quest. Notice how much they look
like Mordea's guards. They don't fit with the image of apprenctices
of the Thergists who run around in hoods. All that would have to be
changed is the symbol on their chest. I went through some of the
character art and found that they had a cross-legged sitting position
as if they were meditating that was not seen in the game.

Obviously the Lost Vale (the canceled add-on) for U8 is a big hole.
In the book that came with U8 "The Chronical of Pagan", there was a
passage that said the Guardian sealed up the Zealan deities in
something called the Lost Vale. The Lost Vale was to be an added area
that could be accessed through the cave on the plateu. That is what
those big doors that won't open was for. In cheat mode you can open
them, but nothing is there. The add-on would have created the Lost
Valley where the Zealan deities were trapped. Screen shots were
released that could make you guess at the plot.

Grimlock Dragon

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Oct 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/20/99
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> > (Shamino) He start distributing certificates which allow (and even
require) the holder
> > to
> > commit robbery, murder etc.
>
> As vendictive as some of the mages felt about each other, I would
> imagine that some of them would have great joy about that.

Looks like deceased Rotoluncia was the main center of all this tension
between mages - at least Filbercio says so. :-)))
(well, maybe Columna a bit too. Male mages seems to be rather decent
fellows - Gustacio, Mortegro, Fedabiblio, Melino...)
Anyway - are these Shamino's certificates in game or are they part of
cut-off
plot?

> > Do you mean the blackrock stair-like building not far from the Mint &
the
> > explosive maker factory (with the hierophant ghost in it)?
>
> Yes.

Is it the only Naga temple? How it is known (what is the source) that it is
the
Naga temple?

> portrait of the brown-haired girl to see if I could identify her.

Now I know that she is Elissa from the Silver Seed.

Max

Larryboy Dragon

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Oct 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/20/99
to

> > O, o,o! Yes please. The U7 wizard is quite a long way in, I thought. The
> > program lets you scroll about, talk to npcs, etc.
>
> Talk???? Maybe I have some ancient version...

That's what I read - it was something the programer was very proud of, IIRC
(as well he should).

> > On a off note, I noticed that in SI you have no resarection spell. If
you
> > could only get it back, you could resarect the towns people.
>
> There is a Hourglass of Fate. BTW - how Nicodemus's hourglass ended on
> the Monk Isle?

It's a different hourglass that re-uses the old graphic - I think.

The hourglass doesn't let you restore non-party members. What I want to do
is bring the towns folk back to life.

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Oct 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/20/99
to
> > Talk???? Maybe I have some ancient version...
>
> That's what I read - it was something the programer was very proud of,
IIRC
> (as well he should).

The app is really great. There is one more similar app called Kult - it
really
allows to talk to NPCs - it has a usecode executive in it (though not
complete).

> > There is a Hourglass of Fate. BTW - how Nicodemus's hourglass ended on
> > the Monk Isle?
>
> It's a different hourglass that re-uses the old graphic - I think.

It _is_ the Time Lord's or Nicodemus's hourglass - it was mentioned
somewhere in the beginning of the SI.
BTW - how the blackrock serpent which was long ago a property of the
Chaos Hierophant ended in UW2?

> The hourglass doesn't let you restore non-party members. What I want to do
> is bring the towns folk back to life.

Hm... Selina can be resurrected by the hourglass even after she left party &
became a direct enemy. Looks like a bug - I suppose the usecode to do the
check only on NPC ID basis, not on the current status of things (well, once
was a companion - so, she can be resurrected).
Also I've heard that using a hourglass in the correct place can resurrect
your
companions - and you will end with 2 versions of them - normal & the Banes.

As about resurrecting anybody - you need to cheat. NPC Status - Dead flag
off. Works for Rotoluncia, for instance - you can even kill her once more
ending with 2 (or more) corpses of her :-)

Max

Aaron Heisler

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Oct 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/20/99
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Do you (or anyone else) have copies of those screen shots?

rus...@wku.edu wrote in <JlFvEv...@axp1.wku.edu>:

Paulon

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Oct 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/21/99
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A Giant Marshmellow Man, walking down your street. Who you gonna call?
Aaron Heisler!

> Do you (or anyone else) have copies of those screen shots?

http://www.uo.com/archive/ftp/graphics/ultima8/lostvale.zip

--
Paulon Dragon d++ e- N T+ Om U1!23!4!5!6!7'!S'!8!K!A!L!W!M!
-==(UDIC)==- u++ uC+ uF uG uLB+ uA+ nC nH+ nI nPT nS+ nT+ y?
The Other Codex http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~paulryan/Ultima/Codex.htm

Ask any question you please of the Gods. They do not have to answer.
Ka'a Orto'o, Gnomic Utterances, II XVI

Negate the Spell to Wish Me Well

Video Dragonville

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
to
Dan Simpson spake thusly:
>
>Shazzana's NPC ID is 74. Althought that probably
>doesn't mean anything since Boydon is 34. What I find
>most interesting is that Andrio is number 4 on the NPC
>list, and if you force him into the party (IIRC) he has
>a Paper Doll Inventory picture (unlike everyone else who,
>if you force to join, have no heads).

I recently tried this with Andrio & Shazzana (playing on the EA
Complete-U7 CD w/ Silver Seed installed), and both had the default
headless inventory photo... did your result perhaps only work in the
original Seed-less release?

~MikeWood
--Video--

Dan Simpson

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:00:54 +0100, Video Dragonville
(mw...@interlog.com) says...

No, I just should have checked my own notes first. Gwenno has a Paper
Doll inventory (in addition to anyone who joins you normally), so one
could assume that in the "Extended SI", she was supposed to join up with
you. She's no. 149, btw.

--
Dan Simpson
many...@hotmail.com
ICQ: 185116

VoyBoy

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to

Dan Simpson <many...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.12843024c...@news.rmci.net...

Yes, Gwenno will join up with you in the present SI version too... but only
after Dupre's sacrifice.

--
=Michael C. Maggio
http://mikey.cwes.net/

Maxim S. Shatskih

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
to
> Yes, Gwenno will join up with you in the present SI version too... but
only
> after Dupre's sacrifice.

I've heard that it is possible to meet Dupre after the sacrifice (!)
somewhere in
Skullcrusher or Spinebreaker. Is it correct?

Max

Dominus Aurorae

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Nov 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/4/99
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You use his ashes to merge his spirit with the Chaos Serpent in
Skullcrusher (after passing through the second most annoying maze in
the game [the Sunrise Isle first half is the most annoying]).

Also, apparently someone has found that using the Hourglass will often
cause Dupre to return to the party after his sacrifice. I've never
tried it, though. I didn't have to use the Hourglass at all to
resurrect companions during my last play-through of the game...
(indeed, the only companions I ever had who 'died' were automatons,
who revive easily with the casting of a 6th Circle spell :)

Aurelian Dragon

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