Am I the only one who thinks mace fighters are too strong?
Lars Friedrich
4-5 hits with a q-staff and my 99 stamina fighter is an immobile training
dummy.
The most common pk skill combo on SP is magery and mace fighting.
After the mana dump the victim has lost 50% of the stamina anyway and the
rest of it is taken away in a matter of seconds.
I had several duels with mage/mace fighters lately. I didn't have any
trouble surviving as long as they left their mace weapon in their backpack.
They dump their mana on me and I still stand there (this confuses them for a
moment), then they take their q-staff and we start hitting each other and
after I used up all my Total Refreshs (At least 75gp on SP..grrr..unbalanced
potion reagents..Why does such a potion need 5 pearls? Yes..pearls reflect
movement in the arcane lore of Ultima but why 5 of them??..), I die sooner
or later. How many Total Refreshs am I supposed to carry around to balance
out the stamina loss of a mace fighter? 20?
My weapon is poisoned of course but that is nothing compared to the stamina
loss the mace fighters inflict per hit.
The stamina loss should depend on the weapon used. You use a huge war
mace..fine..then take the 20 points of stamina away per hit...but not with a
friggin q-staff.
Rant over I think.
Austin
<lars.fr...@privat.kkf.net> wrote:
<snip>
Add to that the fact that the stamina loss is a percentage hit, and
the high dex people take another big hit. Ridiculous really.
Austin of Siege Perilous
When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me,
will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and
shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."
Yuri Gorlinski
There is a bit of an imbalance at work here. Never gave it much thought
on the normal shards, where excess gold and Total Refreshes are easy to
come by... The more resource-starved SP environment makes maces much
more effective. Skilled assassins, deadly poison, and Total Refresh
potions are a lot less common on SP, so edged weapons become a little
less useful while blunt ones grow more powerful.
Swords still have a lot going for them... Even without poison, the
para-halberd combo can be incredibly destructive. And a dex-monkey with
a fast blade and a fast connection can still mess up a mage pretty
good... On the normal shards, I still favor swords over maces. The
unique conditions of SP probably put things a little bit in favor of
maces...
Note that SP is a horrible shard for dueling. The lack of precasting
neuters warrior/mages, and the cost of reagants makes dueling a shameful
waste of resources. Even on the normal shards, my friends and I usually
go without potions (and poisoned blades) due to cost as well as time
considerations. Again, this favors the mace fighter a bit. That's just
the benefit of using a weapon with advantages built into it instead
of smeared on in limited dosages. And you must also remember that duels
are a very special form of combat, and that they are not entirely
representative of the less formal engagements which are far more common
in UO.
Lord Ssu-ma Shih-ka'i, OGD
lars.fr...@privat.kkf.net says...
Barry Smith
>
> They don't need additional resources or skills to cause the stamina loss.
>
> 4-5 hits with a q-staff and my 99 stamina fighter is an immobile training
> dummy.
I understand what you're saying Lars, but if you've played a mace
fighter before, and that same ability works in your favor, well, there's
the balance. I'm just concerned that eventually OSI will nerf the game
so badly that everything will do 1 point of damage per hit, and have no
secondary effects whatsoever, just to please people who think magery is
overpowered. Or mace fighting. Or Swords. Or Resist. Or....
Plus, as you said, this does raise the value of Total Refreshment
potions.
I don't know what the solution might be; all I know is if they change
mace fighters so that stamina loss is non-existent, all that will do is
make some other skill just that much more powerful. *shrugs*
Bunk
<lars.fr...@privat.kkf.net> wrote:
>Bunk wrote:
>> I just view it like this. Of all the people I see in game, I generaly
>> see about 40% swordsmen, 30% archers, 20% fencers, and 10% mace
>> fighters.
>The war axe a lot of the people carry on SP is a mace weapon (just in case
>you don't know).
>50% mace, 20% archer and swordmen and 10% fencer would be more accurate.
>I guess these numbers depend on where you live, but in the more 'dangerous'
>areas I think my numbers are more accurate..
>*shrugs*
>
>
Well, if this is true, you and I play in very different areas of the
world. I'm not saying I don't beleive you, but that just doesn't fit
what I've seen. I've been attacked by about ten different pks on SP,
of which about three used polearms and 7 used bows. Most of the pvm
types I see use polearms or katanas. There may be a number of pvp
types using mace weapons, because it is effective in pvp, I just
haven't seen them.
My point though, was that just because it actually works as a pvp
weapon isn't a reason to nerf it, because it has plenty of negatives
already.
-Its likely the worst choice of pvm weapons for damage over time.
-It can't be poisoned.
-One of the better ones, the q-staff, can't be repaired.
-and worst of all, the best mace weapon is an axe that looks like a
2-iron.
(I'd never get caught without my trusty GM 2-iron.)
Bunk. [PAG] of SP
Bunk
wrote:
>Bunk wrote:
>
>> On 25 Sep 1999 07:57:01 -0500, "Lars Friedrich"
>> <lars.fr...@privat.kkf.net> wrote:
>>
>> I just view it like this. Of all the people I see in game, I generaly
>> see about 40% swordsmen, 30% archers, 20% fencers, and 10% mace
>> exactly overpowered.
>
>Uhm, the public is never wrong? Maybe smokin crack is not such a bad idea,
>then.
>
er... ok
>
>> A year ago, I think I was one of five people on
>> Sonoma using a mace. I just wanted to be different. The stamina hit
>> (and armor bash) is the first thing they've really done to help the
>> mace at all. Its still the worst class of damge over time weapons.
>
>In tight spots in dungeons or in group attacks, against mage or archer, anyone
>who wants to move, it's stamina hit becomes a major asset, keeping them from
>being able to get away. Used alone, in "duel" conditions, it is not a good
>weapon class.
>
True, but forcing your oponent to stop and cure the deadly poison is
pretty effective to.
>
>> The other thing you have to realize is that the mace has some
>> usefulness in pvp, but how about pvm?
>
>Here is where the simplemindedness of OS hurts us. They can make various attacks
>have different values depending on whether the target is player or non-player,
>but they simply made the mace the same against both. The stam and armor
>situation against monsters is completely ineffective, and they should jack up
>it's damage 25% in compensation, but they don't.
>
Here I moreless agree.
>And since the simplest things, like fixing it so killing cows does not give bad
>karma, can take months, would we want them to pay attention to this while the
>client continues to crash? They need to fix the worst bugs first. Instead, they
>keep bringing new ones.
>
>
Hey man, cow killing is evil. :P
Hey wait... couldn't that staement you made be taken as racist against
cows?
(That was a joke. I think that ongoing conflict has run its course.
We all like to disagree here, but I think we are all getting a little
childish with each other.)
Bunk.
Lars Friedrich
> Well, if this is true, you and I play in very different areas of the
> world.
> I'm not saying I don't beleive you, but that just doesn't fit what I've
seen.
> I've been attacked by about ten different pks on SP,
> of which about three used polearms and 7 used bows. Most of the pvm
> types I see use polearms or katanas. There may be a number of pvp
> types using mace weapons, because it is effective in pvp, I just
> haven't seen them.
hmm..
I invite you to a 'get blocked' and 'loot stolen' session in the City of
Dead..or we could just stare at the Britain Bank wall...two of the places I
hang out and notice the high number of 'war axe' users..
> My point though, was that just because it actually works as a pvp
> weapon isn't a reason to nerf it, because it has plenty of negatives
> already.
The problem is not that it 'works' as PvP weapon, the problem is that the
stamina loss is much too high for PvP. I really like the idea of stamina
loss and armour damage for mace weapons..but when I fight a mace fighter I
always wonder why I have a 100 (or 99 with plate gorget) stamina fighter..I
have the high dex advantage the first 3 seconds..thats it then..and that
gives the mage/mace fighter a huge advantage, because he doesn't have to
worry that his spells get interrupted..
The mage/mace combo is the most unbalanced skill combo regarding PvP and
brought the tank mage back.
A tank mage always had the "disadvantage" that he was slower than the pure
warrior, because he had low dex. As a mace tank mage though, he makes his
opponent as slow as him in a matter of seconds and in another second even
slower till he is immobile (which takes only another hit).
> -Its likely the worst choice of pvm weapons for damage over time.
That is not a reason to not balance it. I mean..think about an ebolt that
did 100 damage to a player but only 20 to a monster. Everyone would shout
for a nerf and the argument:"Hey, why nerf, the spell is useless in PvM"
wouldn't quite hit..
> -It can't be poisoned.
Right
> -One of the better ones, the q-staff, can't be repaired.
Right
> -and worst of all, the best mace weapon is an axe that looks like a
> 2-iron.
I like that weapon. When I see it I always picture the movie 'The last of
the mohicans' (or so, the one with Daniel Day Lewis).
Anyway
The mace weapon is too strong in PvP, especially on SP.
Deadly poison is nearly non-existant, so you can heal poison with 3 ginseng
as a potion or 1 ginseng and 1 garlic and some mana or 1 bandage and some
time.
To poison the weapon you need a poisoner and the poison and the luck that
the poison actually affects the victim.
The only way to get stamina is a Total Refresh potion that uses 5 black
pearls. (The 10 stamina points the normal refresh gives, is a complete
waste..at the time you quaffed it, you already got hit again and lost
another 20 points of stamina).
They either have to reduce the stamina loss or allow that a poisoned weapon
poisons with every hit, like the mace takes the stamina away with every hit.
*shrugs*
Bunk
<lars.fr...@privat.kkf.net> wrote:
I've never had the opportunity to fight a mace/mage myself, but I can
see the frustration if you can't move, and he just backs up and
casts. My problem with this whole thing though, is that this only
seems to be a problem when the mace is combined with something else.
If I'm standing toe to toe with a fencer, and I drive his stamina to
nothing he can't move. So what. I can back off and heal. If I do,
he heals as well. Theres no advantage really, if both fighters have
the same other skills. Now I admit I don't know what effect 0 stamina
has on magery, mainly because I've never been attacked by a mace
fighter.
>Bunk wrote:
>> Well, if this is true, you and I play in very different areas of the
>> world.
>Perhaps..haven't seen a PAG member for some time..
>
>> I'm not saying I don't beleive you, but that just doesn't fit what I've
>seen.
>> I've been attacked by about ten different pks on SP,
>> of which about three used polearms and 7 used bows. Most of the pvm
>> types I see use polearms or katanas. There may be a number of pvp
>> types using mace weapons, because it is effective in pvp, I just
>> haven't seen them.
>hmm..
>I invite you to a 'get blocked' and 'loot stolen' session in the City of
>Dead..or we could just stare at the Britain Bank wall...two of the places I
>hang out and notice the high number of 'war axe' users..
Ive avoided City of the Dead due to numerous reports of blocking...
I haven't been to Britain Bank since the first week of the shard. I'm
finding Minoc a much nicer town.
>
>> My point though, was that just because it actually works as a pvp
>> weapon isn't a reason to nerf it, because it has plenty of negatives
>> already.
>The problem is not that it 'works' as PvP weapon, the problem is that the
>stamina loss is much too high for PvP. I really like the idea of stamina
>loss and armour damage for mace weapons..but when I fight a mace fighter I
>always wonder why I have a 100 (or 99 with plate gorget) stamina fighter..I
>have the high dex advantage the first 3 seconds..thats it then..and that
>gives the mage/mace fighter a huge advantage, because he doesn't have to
>worry that his spells get interrupted..
>The mage/mace combo is the most unbalanced skill combo regarding PvP and
>brought the tank mage back.
>A tank mage always had the "disadvantage" that he was slower than the pure
>warrior, because he had low dex. As a mace tank mage though, he makes his
>opponent as slow as him in a matter of seconds and in another second even
>slower till he is immobile (which takes only another hit).
>
Well, as I say, I haven't really experimented, but if a mace knocks
off 20 stamina per hit:
War axe (with low dex) about 1 swing / 4 secs
Assuming even skill 1 hit / 2 swings
It should take a mace fighter about 40 seconds to drop you to 0
stamina (I'm only speculating :))
And note: I have experimented, and found the staff is only about 20%
faster than the war axe.
>> -Its likely the worst choice of pvm weapons for damage over time.
>That is not a reason to not balance it. I mean..think about an ebolt that
>did 100 damage to a player but only 20 to a monster. Everyone would shout
>for a nerf and the argument:"Hey, why nerf, the spell is useless in PvM"
>wouldn't quite hit..
>
>> -It can't be poisoned.
>Right
>
>> -One of the better ones, the q-staff, can't be repaired.
>Right
>
>> -and worst of all, the best mace weapon is an axe that looks like a
>> 2-iron.
>I like that weapon. When I see it I always picture the movie 'The last of
>the mohicans' (or so, the one with Daniel Day Lewis).
>
Oh boy! My friend uses a huge double bladed battle axe, and I get a
tomahawk. :)
>Anyway
>The mace weapon is too strong in PvP, especially on SP.
>Deadly poison is nearly non-existant, so you can heal poison with 3 ginseng
>as a potion or 1 ginseng and 1 garlic and some mana or 1 bandage and some
>time.
>To poison the weapon you need a poisoner and the poison and the luck that
>the poison actually affects the victim.
I admit there are less poisoners on SP than other shards, but I don't
think we've waited long enough for all the alchemists out there to
reach master level. Give it time, and those damn DP Katanas will show
up.
And really, can you equate having no stamina with being DP'd. Lets
say he knocks you to 0 stamina and it takes you say 3-4 seconds to
disarm and drink the greater refresh. In that 3-4 secs the other guy
is taking damage from the DP while hes disarming, and trying to cure
it, hoping he has a good enough cure.
>
>The only way to get stamina is a Total Refresh potion that uses 5 black
>pearls. (The 10 stamina points the normal refresh gives, is a complete
>waste..at the time you quaffed it, you already got hit again and lost
>another 20 points of stamina).
Maybe its refresh potions that need tweeked, not maces :)
>
>They either have to reduce the stamina loss or allow that a poisoned weapon
>poisons with every hit, like the mace takes the stamina away with every hit.
>
I dont really see allowing poisoning on every hit, just on the fact
that a kryss will tend to get in three times as many hits in the same
amount of time.
>*shrugs*
>
>
Oh well, I still think the Warhammer is underpowered...
Bunk [PAG]
Yuri Gorlinski
>
>A tank mage always had the "disadvantage" that he was slower than the pure
>warrior, because he had low dex. As a mace tank mage though, he makes his
>opponent as slow as him in a matter of seconds and in another second even
>slower till he is immobile (which takes only another hit).
Takes longer than a matter of seconds when you're a mage with low dex,
I've got characters on SP and Sonoma who can attest to that. I tend to
go real light on the armor, or without, so I don't last long against
dex-monkeys in melee combat. Tanking up still seems like a bad idea if
you're interested in using your magery offensively, without meditation
you run out of mana way too quickly in extended battles...
Scott Cornwall
Bunk wrote in message <37eef08a.26149070@news>...
<snip>
>-and worst of all, the best mace weapon is an axe that looks like a
>2-iron.
>
>(I'd never get caught without my trusty GM 2-iron.)
>
>Bunk. [PAG] of SP
>
>
*chuckle*....i'm not the only one that thinks i'm being attacked by Happy
Gilmore
Henrik Brandendorff
> -Its likely the worst choice of pvm weapons for damage over time.
> -It can't be poisoned.
> -One of the better ones, the q-staff, can't be repaired.
You're all too right on all the above. Still, I want a mace for, let's
say sentimental reasons. War axe's got a nice whooshy sound, too :)
> -and worst of all, the best mace weapon is an axe that looks like a
> 2-iron.
This is the major draw back of the mace weapons. Yes, with a war axe you
look like a golfer on your paper doll. Try holding a regular mace while
standing in silhouette - looks like you've been pierced with a gigantic
pin! All in all, though, I take comfort in the thought that the evil
folk I meet will have seriously bruised armour (hey! If any!).
--
For Oden!
Grim (Ranger Recruiter, SBR), Europa