Wow, them's costly (musical instruments)
Zac Bond
Unfortunately, they are all a wee bit on the costly side.
It is unlikely that I will ever be actually playing this in front of anyone;
rather, what I am interested in is something that I can play on and develop
melodies for the assorted song lyrics I've written.
Right now, I have a 1985-era Yamaha PSS-170 that I found in my brother's
closet. LOL, as people online commented, it's a piece of crap.
I expect my best idea for this purpose is probably a keyboard of some kind.
In addition, I should probably buy one that allows me to connect to my PC
using MIDI or whatnot, such that I don't have to worry about the quality of
sound produced by the actual board.
This is about as far as I've gotten though, because I know next to nothing
about music instruments, except that damn are they expensive! Thoughts,
anybody? There were a few keyboards at one music site in the sub-$400 which
seem ideal but I thought I would solicit some commentary from people who
know what they're talking about :-P
-Ophidian
Submersible
wrote:
>Well, I am now on the market for some form of musical instrument.
>Unfortunately, they are all a wee bit on the costly side.
>
>It is unlikely that I will ever be actually playing this in front of anyone;
>rather, what I am interested in is something that I can play on and develop
>melodies for the assorted song lyrics I've written.
Mmm.
>Right now, I have a 1985-era Yamaha PSS-170 that I found in my brother's
>closet. LOL, as people online commented, it's a piece of crap.
Yeah. I have one too. They can be pretty neat if you take the case
apart and start bending the circuits, and the primitive FM synthesis
they do can scrunch up pretty nicely.
But for anything other than warped nostalgia sounds(tm), they suck.
>I expect my best idea for this purpose is probably a keyboard of some kind.
>In addition, I should probably buy one that allows me to connect to my PC
>using MIDI or whatnot, such that I don't have to worry about the quality of
>sound produced by the actual board.
Hmmph. What sound card do you have? And, by the way, MIDI is
/essential/. Can't physically play it? Paint the notes into your
sequencer and fire them into the keyboard! Being able to use MIDI
rocks. :)
>This is about as far as I've gotten though, because I know next to nothing
>about music instruments, except that damn are they expensive! Thoughts,
>anybody? There were a few keyboards at one music site in the sub-$400 which
>seem ideal but I thought I would solicit some commentary from people who
>know what they're talking about :-P
Casio keyboards are nice. Anything in the CTK-6xx series is very good
value for money. They used to go for ~ GBP200 here when they were new
on the market.
Some of the cheap Yamahas are good, but they're not my favoured brand.
Yamaha's synthesiser and budget/non-budget electric guitars are
exemplary examples of what such instruments should be - the Pacifica
range of guitars are the best guitars you can buy for under GBP500,
the Axxxx samplers are my favourites of all the samplers that have
ever been made, and their AES series jazz guitars are just the sexiest
boxes - but somehow I'm not so sold on their home keyboards.
But yeah, anyway, enough ranting. The magic things you need to find,
basically, are three ports on the back of the prospective keyboard
labelled MIDI IN, OUT, and THRU. THRU is non-essential for your
purposes but would be very handy if you ever happened to borrow, say,
a drum machine.
Also would be good to see a swatch on the front panel that says "GM",
noting conformity to the General MIDI soundset and specification.
Without this, you'll probably have a lot to deal with to translate
between the sequencer, the standardised MIDI card in your box, and
your keyboard's output. And you'll definitely have to learn more about
MIDI before you'll be able to do much, which can be a drag.
In addition to the GM swatch, some keyboard instruments carry others,
which are significant but genuinely benign, despite confusion they may
cause. Definitions below:
Yamaha instruments will have this swatch and one that says "XG",
which is Yamaha's extension of this spec - it basically adds more
instruments and variations on the basic soundset of 127 instruments.
Roland instruments - if you can find one in your price range; Roland
have never exhibited much of an interest in making home keyboards and
so probably the closest/cheapest you'll get is their entry-level
synth, the (very very good) XP-10 - will have a "GS" swatch on them.
Think of this as Roland's proprietary extension of GM (which, like XG,
is fully backwards-compatible), and you won't go wrong.
Basically, anything without GM on it you should probably walk away
from, since it'll only confuse matters. GM is all you need for the
basics. XG is nicer. So is GS. But either of those might command a
higher price.
Anyway, good luck.
--Submersible.
Zac Bond
Submersible <cs9...@eim.surrey.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3b160ce...@news.ntlworld.com...
> Hmmph. What sound card do you have? And, by the way, MIDI is
> /essential/. Can't physically play it? Paint the notes into your
> sequencer and fire them into the keyboard! Being able to use MIDI
> rocks. :)
I have a SB Live! at the moment, which I believe has some sort of expansion
that you have to buy for MIDI devices. My knowledge of MIDI is pretty
basic. Back in the day, I had a cute little program with a staff that I
could paint notes into and play them. It never worked well. I recall
playing with some of the Ultima MIDI's--changing instruments to make them
sound better and so on. However, that program is hopelessly out of date
these days (written circa 1993). I've also downloaded and installed a
couple of new sound banks from Creative's website I think, and the one(s?)
designed for UO, but sadly I discovered my card needs a memory expansion for
the best ones. Boo hoo hoo.
> Casio keyboards are nice. Anything in the CTK-6xx series is very good
> value for money. They used to go for ~ GBP200 here when they were new
> on the market.
I saw the Casio CRK-651 in an online store for US$175, although the Casio
website has it at US$250. This one seems pretty appropriate for me, but I
am wondering about the "backlit LCD" which seems like it would add to the
cost without really adding value. But if I can find one of these at a pawn
shop, it'd be a great buy, probably in the $150 range.
> Yamaha instruments will have this swatch and one that says "XG",
> which is Yamaha's extension of this spec - it basically adds more
> instruments and variations on the basic soundset of 127 instruments.
>
> Roland instruments - if you can find one in your price range; Roland
> have never exhibited much of an interest in making home keyboards and
> so probably the closest/cheapest you'll get is their entry-level
> synth, the (very very good) XP-10 - will have a "GS" swatch on them.
> Think of this as Roland's proprietary extension of GM (which, like XG,
> is fully backwards-compatible), and you won't go wrong.
Wow, I vaguely recognize these terms. I was downloading something related
to Yamaha and XG a looong time ago, but I can't recall what it was...Ah
well.
I will probably go shopping in the next few days, since I have parental
approval to spend a reasonable blob of cash :-P
-Ophidian
Submersible
wrote:
>
>Submersible <cs9...@eim.surrey.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:3b160ce...@news.ntlworld.com...
>
>> Hmmph. What sound card do you have? And, by the way, MIDI is
>> /essential/. Can't physically play it? Paint the notes into your
>> sequencer and fire them into the keyboard! Being able to use MIDI
>> rocks. :)
>
>I have a SB Live! at the moment, which I believe has some sort of expansion
>that you have to buy for MIDI devices.
To interface the vast majority of PC soundcards to MIDI instruments,
you will need a $15 interface available from any musical instrument
store that doesn't actually sell nothing but banjos. It's a ~3 foot
double lead with two 5-pin DIN plugs on one end and a big
gameport-sized-n-shaped plug on the other. One end into the gameport,
t'other plugs into the back of your keyboard. Bosh, job done. :)
>My knowledge of MIDI is pretty
>basic. Back in the day, I had a cute little program with a staff that I
>could paint notes into and play them. It never worked well.
Mmm. Sounds cute but dorky. Like me. :)
>I recall
>playing with some of the Ultima MIDI's--changing instruments to make them
>sound better and so on. However, that program is hopelessly out of date
>these days (written circa 1993).
Uh-huh. Well, of the several freeware MIDI sequencing packages
available for Win32 systems, my personal favourite is Massiva, which
you can find out more about at http://www.webmassiva.com/
In the realm of commercial sequencers, the two major contenders that
tend to come up again and again are Steinberg's Cubase and Emagic's
Logic. The entry-level Logic package is marketed as microLogic and is
a exceedingly friendly program that I've worked very contentedly with
for about three years. Cubase I could never really get on with,
however: it's whole way of working is based around looping structures,
which doesn't really suit the way I write. :)
Also in there is Cakewalk, which is pretty damn good in its own right
and probably unjustly ignored. I think Destrius has it, but I haven't
used it myself.
>I've also downloaded and installed a
>couple of new sound banks from Creative's website I think, and the one(s?)
>designed for UO, but sadly I discovered my card needs a memory expansion for
>the best ones. Boo hoo hoo.
Ah yeah. That's always the way. *pat-pat-pat*
>> Casio keyboards are nice. Anything in the CTK-6xx series is very good
>> value for money. They used to go for ~ GBP200 here when they were new
>> on the market.
>
>I saw the Casio CRK-651 in an online store for US$175, although the Casio
>website has it at US$250. This one seems pretty appropriate for me, but I
>am wondering about the "backlit LCD" which seems like it would add to the
>cost without really adding value. But if I can find one of these at a pawn
>shop, it'd be a great buy, probably in the $150 range.
I haven't worked in MI retail for two years now, and the CRK-651 is a
new model on me. I will say, tho, backlit LCDs can be a bloody
lifesaver in low-light conditions, or even dim dorm rooms.
So they do add value. Just in a very subtle way. :)
>
>Wow, I vaguely recognize these terms. I was downloading something related
>to Yamaha and XG a looong time ago, but I can't recall what it was...Ah
>well.
Probably something like the SYXG50, the vaguely-usable
software-synthesiser they were touting as the Future of Music back in
'98.
>I will probably go shopping in the next few days, since I have parental
>approval to spend a reasonable blob of cash :-P
Hehe. Enjoy it, and count your blessings. But make sure they give you
a power supply too! Oh, and a sustain pedal would be good if you wanna
play around with writing piano parts. That'd be about another $10-15,
at a guess.
--Submersible
Zac Bond
> To interface the vast majority of PC soundcards to MIDI instruments,
> you will need a $15 interface available from any musical instrument
> store that doesn't actually sell nothing but banjos. It's a ~3 foot
> double lead with two 5-pin DIN plugs on one end and a big
> gameport-sized-n-shaped plug on the other. One end into the gameport,
> t'other plugs into the back of your keyboard. Bosh, job done. :)
*thinks*
Hey, I have one of those right here. I always wondered what that
was...*looks at it*
I guess the imprint of "MIDI" on the cable might have given a hint, eh?
Now I just wonder what the hell it was used for; maybe my brother's electric
guitar had a MIDI interface...
> Hehe. Enjoy it, and count your blessings. But make sure they give you
> a power supply too! Oh, and a sustain pedal would be good if you wanna
> play around with writing piano parts. That'd be about another $10-15,
> at a guess.
Well since at the moment I am primarily interested in writing anything at
all and have virtually no experience, I expect I won't need that for awhile,
lol. Fortunately I have friends who have a decent amount of musical
experience.
I recall one evening sitting in his basement, trying to hum out a melody to
go with one of my cheesier songs. I think I still have the....thing that we
came up with somewhere, lol...An actual instrument (or at the very least,
some software) ought to make life easier.
-Ophidian
Telemachos
wrote:
What about a Korg Trinity? I think they are pretty neat for
"home-studio" recording with a midi-interface and Cubase..
Telemachos Dragon d-- e- N++ Om+ U1!234!5!6!7!S'!8!9!K!A!L!W!M
-==(UDIC)==- u++ uC uF- uG uLB uA nC nH+ nP+ nI nPT nS+ a23
The Peroxide Homepage : http://www.peroxide.dk
- Home of the PXDTUTS & Free Games
- Home of the Ultima 1 Remake!
- Unspluttable Dragon
Michael McIntyre
>anybody? There were a few keyboards at one music site in the sub-$400 which
>seem ideal but I thought I would solicit some commentary from people who
>know what they're talking about :-P
Do you just want something that will play and not necessarily sound good?
What kind of soundcard do you have?
Most modern soundcards are fair to middling. Leaps and bounds ahead of
where they used to be, though still not as good as real MIDI gear. If
you're not picky, or you have a particularly good card like the SB Live! or
something along those lines, then all you really need is a controller
keyboard.
I have a Fatar MIDI 72 that I bought second-hand from some guy on the net
many years back. I think I put up a WTB message in one of the MIDI
newsgroups. 72 weighted, full-sized keys, a pitch wheel and a modulation
wheel (neither of which have worked for years.) It's a controller
keyboard, and nothing more. It sends out MIDI data, and has no internal
voices.
You could do the same with a cheap Yamaha etc. synth that has a MIDI
output. If your soundcard has better patches, you never need to hear the
sounds coming out of the crappy keyboard.
Then, of course, you need a good sequencer. Depends on what you want to
do. Noteworthy Composer is a good, cheap notation editor, but it's a
pretty lousy sequencer. You can't actually edit the MIDI data directly,
and it doesn't give you the same kind of control as a real sequencer, but
it's capable of being made to do most things.
---
Michael McIntyre | mmci...@swva.net | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
Silvan Pagan Dragon -=UDIC=-
d+ e- N+ T+ Om+++ U123456!7!S!8!9! u++ uC++ uF- uG uLB- uA++ nC+ nH+ nP+ nI nPT nS++++ nT+ wM---- wC--- wS---- o--- oE---- y+ a29
Michael McIntyre
>from, since it'll only confuse matters. GM is all you need for the
>basics. XG is nicer. So is GS. But either of those might command a
>higher price.
I haven't played with a Yamaha in years, but back when I was shopping,
there was just no comparison between Yamaha and Roland. Definitely two
thumbs down for the Yamaha modules I tried, so I horked up the extra
hundreds for the Roland. (Back then it was all credit anyway, so what the
hell, right? Nevermind that I will have paid $50,000 for this thing when I
get it paid off... :)
Michael McIntyre
Hey, not necessarily. I'm still using a 1994, pre-long-filename, 16-bit
version of Cakewalk. There are new goodies in the newer versions, but
they're so expen$$$$ive.
>I will probably go shopping in the next few days, since I have parental
>approval to spend a reasonable blob of cash :-P
Buy a Roland Sound Canvas of some sort then, and a cheapass Yamaha keyboard
to use as a controller. :)
Submersible
wrote:
>On Thu, 31 May 2001 18:39:56 -0400, "Zac Bond" <zacw...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>What about a Korg Trinity? I think they are pretty neat for
>"home-studio" recording with a midi-interface and Cubase..
Mmm. most sweet the Trinitys definitely are. But unless Phid's parents
are, ahem, "shitting gold bricks and pissing gasoline", the $1000+
layout for even a second-hand Trinity might prove a little
prohibitive.
-sd.
Amurath
> Well, I am now on the market for some form of musical instrument.
> Unfortunately, they are all a wee bit on the costly side.
I just saw a Yamaha DX-7 on e-bay with a bid of $20 on it. I
remember when those things were the be all end all of synthesizers.
--
Amurath Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Owner of one "Give a Free Slap [tm]" card
"When I have understanding of computers I shall be
the Supreme Being" - Evil in "Time Bandits"
Michael McIntyre
>are, ahem, "shitting gold bricks and pissing gasoline", the $1000+
>layout for even a second-hand Trinity might prove a little
>prohibitive.
Don't you mean "pissing petrol?" :)
Zac Bond
Michael McIntyre <mmci...@swva.net> wrote in message
news:ermghtg7gvpae2448...@4ax.com...
> >Mmm. most sweet the Trinitys definitely are. But unless Phid's parents
> >are, ahem, "shitting gold bricks and pissing gasoline", the $1000+
> >layout for even a second-hand Trinity might prove a little
> >prohibitive.
>
> Don't you mean "pissing petrol?" :)
LOL, well either way, at this points my parents probably are...And they
promptly spend it on what they want, rather than what my nonworking
bumliness asks for, LOL! So methinks I shall stick to the Casio...
:-P
-Ophidian
Michael McIntyre
>promptly spend it on what they want, rather than what my nonworking
>bumliness asks for, LOL! So methinks I shall stick to the Casio...
>
>:-P
>
>-Ophidian
I almost got you a present today, 'Phid... They had giant sized stuffed
dolphin pillows at Wal-Mart.
I figured by the time I pay for the thing ($12) and ship it, that's getting
a little pricey for a gag gift, so you'll have to settle for the thought.
Zac Bond
> >LOL, well either way, at this points my parents probably are...And they
> >promptly spend it on what they want, rather than what my nonworking
> >bumliness asks for, LOL! So methinks I shall stick to the Casio...
> >
> >:-P
> >
> >-Ophidian
>
> I almost got you a present today, 'Phid... They had giant sized stuffed
> dolphin pillows at Wal-Mart.
>
> I figured by the time I pay for the thing ($12) and ship it, that's
getting
> a little pricey for a gag gift, so you'll have to settle for the thought.
lol, well I have considered ordering boxes of horse feces for random people
(at http://www.smellypoop.com ) but I don't know anyone's address.
-Ophidian
Michael McIntyre
>lol, well I have considered ordering boxes of horse feces for random people
>(at http://www.smellypoop.com ) but I don't know anyone's address.
How about a nice bull dick walking stick? I'm not sure if they're online,
but they're for real.
Destrius
the entity named Submersible (cs9...@eim.surrey.ac.uk)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:
[Late reply, but I cannot pass by something with my name in it. :P ]
-clip-
> To interface the vast majority of PC soundcards to MIDI instruments,
> you will need a $15 interface available from any musical instrument
> store that doesn't actually sell nothing but banjos. It's a ~3 foot
> double lead with two 5-pin DIN plugs on one end and a big
> gameport-sized-n-shaped plug on the other. One end into the gameport,
> t'other plugs into the back of your keyboard. Bosh, job done. :)
-clip-
The extension you ('Phid) are thinking about is probably the Live!
Drive... its not a MIDI interface alone, but a collection of connectors:
1/2" phono, stereo RCA, S/PDIF, optical, MIDI. Plus a headphone jack. It
appeals to the geek factor of liking to have as many holes in a computer as
possible. :P
-clip-
> Also in there is Cakewalk, which is pretty damn good in its own right
> and probably unjustly ignored. I think Destrius has it, but I haven't
> used it myself.
-clip-
Cakewalk is quite good for what I need to do. The newer versions are a
combination of a multitrack and a sequencer, so you can mix in recordings
with your MIDI. The multitrack isn't that fantastic (I find the best
"multitrack" I've used is actually the simple one that came in Adobe
Premiere. Very good for doing crossfades.), but MIDI-wise, its pretty easy
to use and quite feature-full.
I've never gotten a MIDI instrument before, so I only know how to enter
MIDI using the computer. Cakewalk uses a piano roll, which is a rather
intuitive interface. Easy to use. You can also use other views like event,
staff, etc.
-clip-
>>I saw the Casio CRK-651 in an online store for US$175, although the Casio
>>website has it at US$250. This one seems pretty appropriate for me, but I
>>am wondering about the "backlit LCD" which seems like it would add to the
>>cost without really adding value. But if I can find one of these at a pawn
>>shop, it'd be a great buy, probably in the $150 range.
>
> I haven't worked in MI retail for two years now, and the CRK-651 is a
> new model on me. I will say, tho, backlit LCDs can be a bloody
> lifesaver in low-light conditions, or even dim dorm rooms.
>
> So they do add value. Just in a very subtle way. :)
-clip-
From what I know about Casio, they dump their backlit LCDs on everything,
so it'll be hard to find a recent model that doesn't have that. :P
--
+----------------------------------------------+
| Destrius <dest rius @ big foot.com> |
| http://99s31.hjc.edu.sg/users/harmos +----------------------------+
+---------------------------------------| He walks away, |
| Remove spaces in email address | Leaving nothing |
+---------------------------------------| But a notion of his music. |
+----------------------------+
Michael McIntyre
>MIDI using the computer. Cakewalk uses a piano roll, which is a rather
>intuitive interface. Easy to use. You can also use other views like event,
>staff, etc.
Bah. Enter notes in Staff view, then tweak the note lengths (for example,
making a stringed instrument sound strummy, or entering some weird
combination of tied notes) in the piano roll view. Better yet, enter notes
with Noteworthy Composer, then export to MIDI and tweak it with Cakewalk.
NWC is a much better note editor, but it doesn't give you as much playback
flexibility.
Getting a keyboard is the way to go though. I finally learned how to play
mine well enough to use it for simple stuff, and it sure is faster than
doing it the old-fashioned way.
Now if I had the $$$ for one of those kits to turn my guitar into a MIDI
transmission device...
Singing Dragon
One interesting possibility is to just get a keyboard that simply
acts as a midi controller - so it has no synth built in at all. You
could use it to control your computer's midi synth, assuming it
doesn't suck. Roland makes some of these, and probably some other
companies as well. I'd get one in a flash, except that I haven't
seen any with a full keyboard. It's usually just a few octaves...
but good for starting.
--
Singing Dragon
-- Don't forget to *enjoy* the *sauce* --
- UnSpluttable -
- 1 Boa point -
Michael McIntyre
>acts as a midi controller - so it has no synth built in at all. You
>could use it to control your computer's midi synth, assuming it
>doesn't suck. Roland makes some of these, and probably some other
>companies as well. I'd get one in a flash, except that I haven't
>seen any with a full keyboard. It's usually just a few octaves...
>but good for starting.
They make'em for sure, though the better ones are not as cheap as you'd
think, since a good, solid mechanism is almost as complex as that of an
acoustic instrument.
Mine is a pretty good compromise. Since I'm not a keyboard player, I don't
really miss the extra octave+ and 72 keys are better than 60. The
mechanism isn't the best I've played with, but it's OK. Better than a
non-weighted keyboard.