Well, that kinda explains it all with Chessgirl

0 views
Skip to first unread message

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/12/98
to
From the Void comes Ophidian Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> OK, so here's a request for a new bit of advice: Assuming that
> eventually I do get to talking to Chessgirl again (We'll skip that part,
> 'cause everyone has already told me how to do that even if I don't
> listen), how would I deal with the fact that she isn't interested in
> romance? I mean, I want to ensure that we'd stay friends.....But how
> would I turn that into a romantic type thing given that she claims that
> she doesn't want a boyfriend?

You can't. That is a decision only she can make. All you can do
is be the best person you are capable of being and just hope that it is
what interests her.

Also, trying to turn a friendship into a romance when she says she
isn't interested doesn't say much for your regards about her opinions and
desires for herself. When you truly love a person you want to make them
happy, not force-fit them into a pattern you want.

> Anyway, it's good to know that it's not all my fault :-) Though it does
> not explain why she doesn't respond to my mail....But I can ask her dad
> if it ever got to her. It's strange.....Now that romantic involvement
> is (at least temporarily) out of the picture, thinking about talking to
> her seems much more natural than before. Wacky.

Experience.

--

Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
-=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> Gee, that was a nice thing for me to read. So you are telling people, 'don't get
> married because you will end up getting divorced?'

Just how long have you been married, hmm?

Well-Dressed comments are pretty accurate. Being in love doesn't
magically make a marriage work. It takes a *lot* of time, effort, and
tolerance to have a successful marriage.

> Or are you thinking that
> people get married for money, power, etc?

Some people do. Their choice.

> The way you make it sound, it sounds like you've never actually fallen in love
> before. Or perhaps, doesn't want to fall in love, for fear of what they may
> find?

Wouldn't you rather know what causes most marriages to fail and be
able to doing something constructive about it rather than blindly
trusting in love or luck?

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:

I think I know that already. Marrage takes work. I know that. But if you don't -love-
the person to begin with, why would you want to work with them towards something.

I think now I'm tired of getting stepped on by people. Why the hell should I have to
be alone and suffer for the rest of my life, hmm?

--
Nuitari Dragon -=<UDIC>=-
--==<UnSplut>==--
klk...@ecs.syr.edu
--------------
d++ e+ N+ T+++ Om+ U1!234567'!S'!8!KA!L!
u- uC++ uF++ uG++++ uLB--- uA+ nC nH+ nP
nI nS nT+ wM+++ wC- wS wI---- wN z?
--------------

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> Gee, thanks for destroying my nice dream for me. I think I'll just run off and be
> depressed now.

Don't be depressed. Use the knowledge you've been given to
*avoid* the mistakes others have made. We _want_ your marriage to be
successful -- that's why we are telling you this stuff.

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
> I think I know that already. Marrage takes work. I know that. But if you don't -love-
> the person to begin with, why would you want to work with them towards something.

Because they have something you want, like power, money, or fame?
People get married for all types of reasons, many of which have little to
do with love.

Just look at how many people marry because the woman is pregnant.

Anyway, I married for love and I still firmly believe you should
only be in a relationship for love. That doesn't blind me though to the
things I need to do in a relationship for it to be successful. Love by
itself doesn't automagically make the relationship work.



> I think now I'm tired of getting stepped on by people. Why the hell should I have to
> be alone and suffer for the rest of my life, hmm?

Only you can decide that. All we are pointing out is that in
takes more than love alone to make a successful relationship. You have
to water it, nurture it, care for it for the rest of your life for it to
be successful.

Samurai

unread,
Nov 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/14/98
to
Quoth "Well-Dressed" <well_d...@leavethisout.hotmail.com>:
[munch]

>That saved me some typing. I think about 99% of marriages, after
>twenty years, are either already finished, about to be finished,
>involve two people too insecure to finish it, or isn't finished
>because of the kids. Then there's the 1% that's either True Love
>or a mutually agreed sharing of resources that works out well
>enough for all parties involved. When it comes to True Love
>marriages, it's interesting to note that most of these couples
>don't have kids.

Well, my parents do, and thank the gods they're in that 1%. *beam*
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon ~~ UDIC Code ~~
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e N T--Om+U146MA7'L8u-uC++
\ `^--^ Founder \/ of SAPS uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
\ \ \ (Remove fish to reply) nI++nPT+nS+++nT--wM-wC y+ a22
ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one -positive- thing
> about marriage. That's all.

<self quote>

Anyway, I married for love and I still firmly believe you should
only be in a relationship for love.

</self quote>

<self quote>

Use the knowledge you've been given to *avoid* the mistakes others
have made. We _want_ your marriage to be successful -- that's why we are
telling you this stuff.

</self quote>

Heh. Speaking only for myself, I believe I *did* say positive
things. So, are you willing to listen to what we are actually saying or
do you want to continue your little pity party?

(Yeah, I know I'm being harsh and I'm sure Shodan would like to
tear me a new asshole about now, but dammit! we are trying to help the
two of you to have a successful marriage.)

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:

You might be trying to help, but it seems to me that you are trying to ram the
stuff into my head. Positive is negative to me and vice versa. Ohwell. :>

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> You might be trying to help, but it seems to me that you are trying to ram the
> stuff into my head.

Right. It is kind of hard to force any of this stuff off on you
considering how easy it is for you to ignore what everyone says.

All everyone was trying to do is give you and Shodan an honest
appraisal of marriage. If you view marriage through rose-colored glasses
you'll be wondering why those glasses are broken a few years down the
line. If you know _up front_ what it takes to have a LIFE LONG
commitment *alive*, then you just might be able to live that wonderful
dream and have the greatest experience any two people can share.

I'm in the greatest relationship of my life. It *exceeds*
anything I ever dreamed of. Why? Because I learned from my mistakes and
can now approach a life long commitment and/or marriage with the
necessary skills and heart to make my side of it work.

I just wish I hadn't of learned those lessons the hard way and at
someone else's expense.

Again, they were a 'don't do this and definitely do that' type of
suggestions so that you would have a fighting chance to realize your
dreams.

> Positive is negative to me and vice versa. Ohwell. :>

Are you saying that you suffer from low self-esteem? That is you
view people with contempt if they don't treat you like crap?

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> I still have the great idea in my head that love will conquer all. Or is that
> wrong?

Unless you two are absolutely compatible to the point that you can
finish each others sentences, can't lie (that is, both of you know each
other so well that you can read each other like a book), and have a
number of years experience living with someone, no, love won't conquer
all.

You can love someone to pieces, but be unable to live with them
day in and day out, year after year, child after child.

Consider love a pair of trees that the two of you are trying to
grow into one tree. If you let "love conquer all" then you choose to let
the trees grow untended and only luck will see the trees survive to be
one.

What we are trying to show you is how to husband those trees, how
to tend the garden, how to fertilize the trees with the right manure, how
to deal with storms, etc.. It takes time and effort to grow two trees
into one and we want to help you do it right.

And that means getting your hands dirty and dealing with the
reality of trees.

> And what the heck are three monkies?

See no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:

<munch>

> > Positive is negative to me and vice versa. Ohwell. :>
>
> Are you saying that you suffer from low self-esteem? That is you
> view people with contempt if they don't treat you like crap?
>

> --
>
> Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
myself.

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:<chomp>

> > Positive is negative to me and vice versa. Ohwell. :>
>
> Are you saying that you suffer from low self-esteem? That is you
> view people with contempt if they don't treat you like crap?
>
> --
>
> Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

I hit send too fast. And another thing. Its not contempt, its more like suspision.
No offence.

MdmeDis

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
In article <36530CF1...@ecs.syr.edu>, klk...@ecs.syr.edu says...

> Fortran Dragon wrote:
>
> > From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
> > [Snip]
> > > I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one -positive- thing
> > > about marriage. That's all.
> >
> > <self quote>
> >
> > Anyway, I married for love and I still firmly believe you should
> > only be in a relationship for love.
> >
> > </self quote>
> >
> > <self quote>
> >
> > Use the knowledge you've been given to *avoid* the mistakes others
> > have made. We _want_ your marriage to be successful -- that's why we are
> > telling you this stuff.
> >
> > </self quote>
> >
> > Heh. Speaking only for myself, I believe I *did* say positive
> > things. So, are you willing to listen to what we are actually saying or
> > do you want to continue your little pity party?
> >
> > (Yeah, I know I'm being harsh and I'm sure Shodan would like to
> > tear me a new asshole about now, but dammit! we are trying to help the
> > two of you to have a successful marriage.)
> >
> > --
> >
> > Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> > -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> > Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> > rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>
>
> You might be trying to help, but it seems to me that you are trying to ram the
> stuff into my head. Positive is negative to me and vice versa. Ohwell. :>

At the outset, I was responding to someone, WD I think, who voiced the
opinion marriage wasn't all a bed of roses - you disagreed with him, I
agreed with him. This apparently sent you into a depression, so I tried
to say hey - marriage is fine if you realize statistically most fail,
and avoid some of the things that cause the failure. I foolishly thought
when you asked if love conquered all that you actually wanted an answer.
I will cancel forthwith. Heaven forbid I cram anything down your throat.
Marriage is wonderful, and I'm quite sure Shodan will be able to play
the Knight in Shining armour for the next - what - fifty years without
missing a beat.

--
Disoriented Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

D'ya ever have those days when you think
maybe its you, and not the rest of the world
that's fucked up?

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
MdmeDis wrote:

Our relationship isn't a bed of roses. We have our fights and disagreements too. But
guess what, we -talk- it out! Isn't that wonderful? Now, I know they take alot of work.
I'm willing. He's willing. Okay? What more do you want me to say?

MdmeDis

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
In article <3653322D...@ecs.syr.edu>, klk...@ecs.syr.edu says...

> Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
> but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
> swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
> myself.

Only if you choose to let it. You are an adult (I assume) and therefore
can now decide whether she was right or wrong.

Ophidian Dragon

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to Fortran Dragon
Fortran Dragon wrote:

> Heh. Speaking only for myself, I believe I *did* say positive
> things. So, are you willing to listen to what we are actually saying >or do you want to continue your little pity party?

I think you're problem is that you've been telling her what NOT to do,
but haven't give any idea of what to do, PROactively. Of course, I
haven't followed the thread, so I dunno :-)

-Ophidian Dragon

Well-Dressed

unread,
Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
to
>Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
>but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
>swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
>myself.

I am sorry to hear that... I've been there too. It's tough to not let
it bother you, but I've become strong and independant enough over the
last few years to reach that point. And I think it's been the biggest
victory of my life.

I don't want to interfere with anything, only share my thoughts: maybe
it'd not be the best thing for you now to become dependant on someone
else. Not yet. Become fully independant and learn to believe in
yourself first. Don't use marriage for escapism. That would only cause
you and Shodan a lot of pain in the end.

Don't hate me for sharing. Have a good, long talk with Shodan, and try
to figure out where you are. That might be a lot harder than it
appears on the surface. The fact that you and Shodan bring up your
youth when confronted even superficially with marriage may be a hint
that there's more than meets the eye.

Good luck, Nuitari. I mean that. Be careful.
Sven/Well-Dressed

Samurai

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Quoth Ophidian Dragon <"zacwbond"@hotmail.c()m>:
>Nuitari Dragon wrote:

>> I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one
>>-positive- thing about marriage. That's all.
>

>My parents have ben married for about 25 years now, and they're
>pretty happy.

*nod* Mine too. Despite outside trials and tribulations, my parents
have remained very much in love, and perhaps even more importantly,
best friends.

As I said before, I consider myself most fortunate I have a functional
family. ;)

Allan Olley

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:14:54 -0500, mdm...@earthlink.net (MdmeDis)
wrote:
>> Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
>> but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
>> swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
>> myself.
>Only if you choose to let it. You are an adult (I assume) and therefore
>can now decide whether she was right or wrong.

Mdme, are you trying to say we have complete control over the
attitudes, responses, and self-image that have been learned and built
up over a huge amount of our lives just by snapping our fingers and
making a chose? If so I have to respectfully disagree, IMO the
behaviours we have learned through are lives can exert a profound and
uncontrolable effect on us. In some cases I would think that to ask
someone to suppress them is equivalent to asking them to suppress
physical pain. I am not saying it is impossible, just that it may
well be bloody hard.

To Nuitari, I have to say, that I do not know what to say, just being
shy and awkward around my peers has given my self-esteem a good whack
in my short life, I can not imagine what you must have gone through.
I think you've brought a little happiness into everyone's life on the
RGCUD by posting here. Keep trying to believe in yourself more and I
think you can succeed(sp), good luck.
--
d e- N- T- Om++ UK!1!2!3!4!6A78! u uC uF- uG+ uLB+ uA nC nR nH+ nP nI+
nPT nS+ nT- y- a19
Member of the Cinnaguard
Blue Bow [B><B]
-----------
Yours Truly Saint George's Dragon
Allan Olley -==UDIC==-
-----------
"Conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription."
William Lyon Mackenzie King.

Allan Olley

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
(Samurai) wrote:
>Quoth Ophidian Dragon
>>Nuitari Dragon wrote:
>>> I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one
>>>-positive- thing about marriage. That's all.
>>My parents have ben married for about 25 years now, and they're
>>pretty happy.
>*nod* Mine too. Despite outside trials and tribulations, my parents
>have remained very much in love, and perhaps even more importantly,
>best friends.
>As I said before, I consider myself most fortunate I have a functional
>family. ;)

Well, I have an account much similiar to the first two, I think my
parents are beast friends in addition to being in love.

I have to say I consider myself extremely fortunate in my parents who
are the best I could possibly imagine.

Infinitron Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Ooh, the gloating of the lucky. ;)

My parents are okay, I guess.

Wonder if has anything to do with socio-economic status...

* eyes the big minus in family bank account *

--
Infinitron Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
--------------
d++ e+ N+ T+ Om++ U1!24!56!7'!S'!8!KALW!M
u+ uC++ uF++ uG+++ uLB+ uA+ nC+ nR- nH nP+ nI++
nPT nS+++ nT-- wM++ wC+++ wS+ wI-- wN o oA y+ 16
--------------
"Zug!"
Samurai wrote in message <365360c4...@news.prestel.co.uk>...


>Quoth Ophidian Dragon <"zacwbond"@hotmail.c()m>:

>>Nuitari Dragon wrote:
>
>>> I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one
>>>-positive- thing about marriage. That's all.
>>
>>My parents have ben married for about 25 years now, and they're
>>pretty happy.
>
>*nod* Mine too. Despite outside trials and tribulations, my parents
>have remained very much in love, and perhaps even more importantly,
>best friends.
>
>As I said before, I consider myself most fortunate I have a functional
>family. ;)

Matthew Filla

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:54:50 GMT,
aol...@accglobal.it.might.help.if.you.remove.this.phrase.net (Allan
Olley) wrote:

>Well, I have an account much similiar to the first two, I think my
>parents are beast friends in addition to being in love.

^^^^^
<snicker> It sounds like your parents are Tarzan and Jane...

>I have to say I consider myself extremely fortunate in my parents who
>are the best I could possibly imagine.

I didn't realize how truly cool my parents were until I went to
college and heard about other people's parents. (Most of my high
school friends had relatively cool parents as well.) Plus I was
probably old enough at that point to appreciate them.

Although it's all in the perspective, I guess. Before I met my college
girlfriend's parents, I had heard all these stories about how annoying
they were from her. They turned out to be perfectly nice people with
whom I got along very well (certainly better than I did with my
girlfriend later in our relationship). I may be biased here - they did
take me along on a family trip to the Bahamas - twice.

Matt
--
Consulting Dragon -==(UDIC)==- |"Evangelists tend to think that
(aka Matthew Filla) | religion should be spread like
Middleton, WI | a virus. I believe it should be
matthe...@teldta.com | picked like a fruit." -Lost Dragon

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Well-Dressed wrote:

> >Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
> >but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
> >swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
> >myself.
>

> I am sorry to hear that... I've been there too. It's tough to not let
> it bother you, but I've become strong and independant enough over the
> last few years to reach that point. And I think it's been the biggest
> victory of my life.
>
> I don't want to interfere with anything, only share my thoughts: maybe
> it'd not be the best thing for you now to become dependant on someone
> else. Not yet. Become fully independant and learn to believe in
> yourself first. Don't use marriage for escapism. That would only cause
> you and Shodan a lot of pain in the end.
>
> Don't hate me for sharing. Have a good, long talk with Shodan, and try
> to figure out where you are. That might be a lot harder than it
> appears on the surface. The fact that you and Shodan bring up your
> youth when confronted even superficially with marriage may be a hint
> that there's more than meets the eye.
>
> Good luck, Nuitari. I mean that. Be careful.
> Sven/Well-Dressed

How do you not let it get to you...? I try, very very hard just to ignore her. It doesn't
work. When I'm not ready to snap her head off I'm still thinking of remarks to say
back... ugh. And the cycle starts again every day. I'm sick of fighting with that woman.

It used to be like, push her buttons and watch the fireworks go. Now I don't do anything
and they go off by themselves.

Any advice for dealing with her, until I am able to get out of the house? Without her
signature, I can't get aid for college. I don't really want to lose all that money.

MdmeDis

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
In article <3653a2de...@news.accglobal.net>,
aol...@accglobal.it.might.help.if.you.remove.this.phrase.net says...

> On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:14:54 -0500, mdm...@earthlink.net (MdmeDis)
> wrote:
> >In article <3653322D...@ecs.syr.edu>, klk...@ecs.syr.edu says...
> >> Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
> >> but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
> >> swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
> >> myself.
> >Only if you choose to let it. You are an adult (I assume) and therefore
> >can now decide whether she was right or wrong.
>
> Mdme, are you trying to say we have complete control over the
> attitudes, responses, and self-image that have been learned and built
> up over a huge amount of our lives just by snapping our fingers and
> making a chose? If so I have to respectfully disagree, IMO the
> behaviours we have learned through are lives can exert a profound and
> uncontrolable effect on us. In some cases I would think that to ask
> someone to suppress them is equivalent to asking them to suppress
> physical pain. I am not saying it is impossible, just that it may
> well be bloody hard.

I agree in total, absolutely and completely - practically impossible in
most cases without some help. I would say it and overcoming a physical
addiction are pretty much on a par. However, both are ultimately a
matter of choice - Some addicts prefer to remain addicted, and some
people with low self esteem prefer to remain that way and play upon
people's sympathies as a coping strategy.

I know what I said came across as harsh, but I believe that telling a
person with low self esteem "you are really a wonderful person" is about
as effective as saying "you need to cheer up" to a clinically depressed
person. I realize to some extent the profound effect that parental
opinion has on one in the formative years - my mother daily informed me
she wished she'd had a boy, and I think possibly that is at the root of
my attitude toward women. Being me, and not predisposed to thinking
everything is my fault, I wound up thinking women were inferior, and
everything that happened subsequently I twisted to fit that picture. It
still gets away from me periodically - witness some of my anti-feminist
rants.

I wasn't suggesting for a second suppressing anything - but as I said
to Skeptical, what your parents did was terrible, but they are gone and
you are left with the problem. You are the only one left that can alter
anything. Nuitari recognises that it was her mother that instilled these
feelings in her, now it is up to Nuitari, the adult Nuitari, to choose
whether she lives by her mother's standards, or sets her own. It won't
happen overnight - the passage to adulthood takes many tears (I meant to
type years, but tears is good too) and for each of us presents a
different set of demons.

Destrius

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:27:43 -0600,
the entity named Fortran Dragon (for...@earthlink.net)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:

-clip-


> (Yeah, I know I'm being harsh and I'm sure Shodan would like to
>tear me a new asshole about now, but dammit! we are trying to help the
>two of you to have a successful marriage.)

-clip-

And you should realize that all of us are going to turn up on your wedding
day! :)

btw, are you thinking of holding something in the Weyr too?

--
+------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Destrius Dragon | |
| Official Mad Mage | "Am I dreaming of the |
| -=*[~UDIC~]*=- -=*[UnSPLUT!]*=- | butterfly, or is the |
| http://destrius.simplenet.com/email.html | butterfly dreaming |
| Follow instructions to email me... | of me...?" |
| Website: | |
| http://destrius.simplenet.com | . o O (...) |
+------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
UDIC: d+++ e+ N++ T-- Om+ U1234567!8!AWS'! u++ uC++++ uF-
uG++++ uLB+ uA+++ nC+ nR nH+ nP++ nI++ nPT++++
nS++++ nT-- wM wC+ wS wI+ wN+ o- y a16
---| 庄心宇 |--Bait:--| ro...@127.0.0.1 |--| postm...@127.0.0.1 |--

Destrius

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 15:46:37 -0500,
the entity named Nuitari Dragon (klk...@ecs.syr.edu)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:

-clip-


>Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have
>brought nothing but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a
>little <insert favourite swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every
>day tends to wear down my belief in myself.

-clip-

*sniff*

Destrius tries to comfort Nuitari.

Well, at least you have us. The world's largest support group!

Destrius

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 15:47:52 -0500,
the entity named Nuitari Dragon (klk...@ecs.syr.edu)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:

-clip-


>I hit send too fast. And another thing. Its not contempt, its more like
>suspision. No offence.

-clip-

'Tis no wonder you peer at me so often, then. :)

Destrius

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:24:38 -0600,
the entity named Ophidian Dragon (@hotmail.cm)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:

-clip-


>I think you're problem is that you've been telling her what NOT to do,
>but haven't give any idea of what to do, PROactively. Of course, I
>haven't followed the thread, so I dunno :-)

-clip-

You do have experience in un-accepting suggestions, don't you? :)

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
> but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
> swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
> myself.

Are you going to let your mother run (and ruin) your entire life?
Are you going to grow up and live your own life? Like a person that is
clinically depression, it isn't easy to fix what is wrong, but the
possibility of a cure is there if you reach out for it and try.

Anyway, you can't blame your mother forever. Eventually people
are going to get tired of it and will start expecting you to *do*
something about it.

The choice is yours.

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> How do you not let it get to you...? I try, very very hard just to ignore her. It doesn't
> work. When I'm not ready to snap her head off I'm still thinking of remarks to say
> back... ugh. And the cycle starts again every day. I'm sick of fighting with that woman.
>
> It used to be like, push her buttons and watch the fireworks go. Now I don't do anything
> and they go off by themselves.
>
> Any advice for dealing with her, until I am able to get out of the house? Without her
> signature, I can't get aid for college. I don't really want to lose all that money.

As tough as it sounds you need to accept that she has her opinions
and her opinions have *nothing* to do with your worth as a person. As a
human being your mother can be quite wrong, but it is hard to ignore what
your parents say.

Basically, I think your mother is blaming you for her own
mistakes. Instead of accepting the responsibility for her actions she's
transferred the guilt or anger she feels to you. Perhaps your mother
wanted her marriage to be a certain way and when that didn't happen
according to her plan, maybe she had unrealistic expectations of your
father (or he, of her), or it could be that he betrayed her in a way that
struck at her very core.

I think the best you can do is simply ignore what she says and do
what you think is best. If she is a very controlling type of person then
that is the only way to break her grip on you. Fighting with her won't
help because you aren't going to be able to do anything about her
opinions.

Acceptance can be a key to helping yourself. If you accept your
mother for herself, flaws and all, then you can move yourself beyond her
image of you. As long as you keep trying to win her approval you will be
letting her set your self-image.

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:

> From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
> [Snip]

> > Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have brought nothing
> > but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a little <insert favourite
> > swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every day tends to wear down my belief in
> > myself.
>
> Are you going to let your mother run (and ruin) your entire life?
> Are you going to grow up and live your own life? Like a person that is
> clinically depression, it isn't easy to fix what is wrong, but the
> possibility of a cure is there if you reach out for it and try.
>
> Anyway, you can't blame your mother forever. Eventually people
> are going to get tired of it and will start expecting you to *do*
> something about it.
>
> The choice is yours.
>

> --
>
> Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

Um. I really can't fix much until I am able to get out of my house. I can't leave. If I
leave then I can't go to college. I can't pay for it myself, and SU won't let me claim
financial independence.

She does not run my life. I'm not as subserviant as she wants me to be. She's empty. Very
empty. My father took her away from her country, and left her for another woman. Some
people never get over things. So she tries to live through me. Do not judge me on things
you don't know about.

You don't know the whole story, and I'm not going to bore you with the details unless you
really want me to.

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Destrius wrote:

> ...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:27:43 -0600,
> the entity named Fortran Dragon (for...@earthlink.net)

> inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:
>
> -clip-

> > (Yeah, I know I'm being harsh and I'm sure Shodan would like to
> >tear me a new asshole about now, but dammit! we are trying to help the
> >two of you to have a successful marriage.)
> -clip-
>
> And you should realize that all of us are going to turn up on your wedding
> day! :)
>
> btw, are you thinking of holding something in the Weyr too?
>

> --
> +------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
> | Destrius Dragon | |
> | Official Mad Mage | "Am I dreaming of the |
> | -=*[~UDIC~]*=- -=*[UnSPLUT!]*=- | butterfly, or is the |
> | http://destrius.simplenet.com/email.html | butterfly dreaming |
> | Follow instructions to email me... | of me...?" |
> | Website: | |
> | http://destrius.simplenet.com | . o O (...) |
> +------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
> UDIC: d+++ e+ N++ T-- Om+ U1234567!8!AWS'! u++ uC++++ uF-
> uG++++ uLB+ uA+++ nC+ nR nH+ nP++ nI++ nPT++++
> nS++++ nT-- wM wC+ wS wI+ wN+ o- y a16
> ---| 庄心宇 |--Bait:--| ro...@127.0.0.1 |--| postm...@127.0.0.1 |--

I already got married on Weyr 1. Tho, maybe we might plan on another one. :>

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Destrius wrote:

> ...and it was written on the heavens that on Wed, 18 Nov 1998 15:46:37 -0500,


> the entity named Nuitari Dragon (klk...@ecs.syr.edu)

> inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:
>
> -clip-

> >Having a mother that tells you from the day you were born: "You have
> >brought nothing but misery to my life, and everyone elses" and "You are a
> >little <insert favourite swear word here> and shouldn't be around" every
> >day tends to wear down my belief in myself.

> -clip-
>
> *sniff*
>
> Destrius tries to comfort Nuitari.
>
> Well, at least you have us. The world's largest support group!
>

> --
> +------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
> | Destrius Dragon | |
> | Official Mad Mage | "Am I dreaming of the |
> | -=*[~UDIC~]*=- -=*[UnSPLUT!]*=- | butterfly, or is the |
> | http://destrius.simplenet.com/email.html | butterfly dreaming |
> | Follow instructions to email me... | of me...?" |
> | Website: | |
> | http://destrius.simplenet.com | . o O (...) |
> +------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
> UDIC: d+++ e+ N++ T-- Om+ U1234567!8!AWS'! u++ uC++++ uF-
> uG++++ uLB+ uA+++ nC+ nR nH+ nP++ nI++ nPT++++
> nS++++ nT-- wM wC+ wS wI+ wN+ o- y a16
> ---| 庄心宇 |--Bait:--| ro...@127.0.0.1 |--| postm...@127.0.0.1 |--

Better than a shrink, ye all are! Well, most of you. ;>

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> I hit send too fast. And another thing. Its not contempt, its more like suspision.
> No offence.

<shrug> If that is what you want to do, then sobeit.

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
> Our relationship isn't a bed of roses. We have our fights and disagreements too. But
> guess what, we -talk- it out! Isn't that wonderful? Now, I know they take alot of work.
> I'm willing. He's willing. Okay? What more do you want me to say?

No one wants you to _say_ anything. We want you to consider the
consequences of what you are doing and to have a realistic idea of what a
marriage takes. (Many people see marriage as an escape from whatever
unpleasant situation that they are in thinking that loving someone will
make everything automagically work.)

For example, let's take fighting. When you (you meaning *both* of
you, not just you, Nuitari) fight, do you stick to the issues or do you
drag personalities into it? Do you resolve issues or are things brought
back up and used against each other? Do you say "You're wrong. Don't
ever do that again." or do you say "I'm hurt by what you did. I want
talk about it so that we can avoid having this happen again.". Do you
give ultimatums? Can you revisit an issues if a solution you tried
simply isn't working?

People also tend to imitate their parents when they get married
because that is the only role-model they have for a marriage. Have both
of you sat down and honestly discussed what you like and dislike about
the other's parents? Do you have any concrete idea on whether or not you
are going to have kids? If so, how many and when?

Are you both going to work? If so, how are you going to split the
household responsibilities? The money earned (especially if one earns
markedly more than the other)? Will you always make decisions together
or can one make a decision for both and/or commit both to something
without any consultation?

Nuitari Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:

<munch>

> For example, let's take fighting. When you (you meaning *both* of
> you, not just you, Nuitari) fight, do you stick to the issues or do you
> drag personalities into it? Do you resolve issues or are things brought
> back up and used against each other? Do you say "You're wrong. Don't
> ever do that again." or do you say "I'm hurt by what you did. I want
> talk about it so that we can avoid having this happen again.". Do you
> give ultimatums? Can you revisit an issues if a solution you tried
> simply isn't working?

We try to do the second option. Its hard tho, to talk about things. I hate just claming up.
It hurts me even more to not say anything tho, and go right on fighting. There's only a few
times that I've ever not talked to him about something... and guess what happened. It hurt so
bad I went right back and talked to him about it. Hiding from him doesn't get either of us
anywhere.

> People also tend to imitate their parents when they get married
> because that is the only role-model they have for a marriage. Have both
> of you sat down and honestly discussed what you like and dislike about
> the other's parents? Do you have any concrete idea on whether or not you
> are going to have kids? If so, how many and when?

Honesty, I'm afraid to have children because I'm afraid I'll end up beating them like my
mother did to me. You know about the statistic. What I like about his parents is that he
seems so open with them. Not so with mine. I can't tell my mother anything, and when I try to
talk to my father... he just gets mad and hangs up the phone on me. Great.

>
>
> Are you both going to work? If so, how are you going to split the
> household responsibilities? The money earned (especially if one earns
> markedly more than the other)? Will you always make decisions together
> or can one make a decision for both and/or commit both to something
> without any consultation?
>
> --
>
> Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

Another reason I have to stay here, Fortran. I'm trying to work on -my- education so I can
get a job and be self sufficent.

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]

> Um. I really can't fix much until I am able to get out of my house. I can't leave. If I
> leave then I can't go to college. I can't pay for it myself, and SU won't let me claim
> financial independence.

SU? State University?

Actually, I would be surprised if you weren't able to go to
college. If single parents can manage to work a job, raise their kids,
and go to college, I imagine that you can do the same.

Again, it won't be easy, but it can be done.

> She does not run my life. I'm not as subserviant as she wants me to be. She's empty. Very
> empty. My father took her away from her country, and left her for another woman. Some
> people never get over things.

Some people don't want to get over things. They prefer to be
miserable, prefer to be users, prefer to be addicted, prefer to be
whatever they are instead of working to be better (or different).

> So she tries to live through me.

From you descriptions it sounds like she is.

> Do not judge me on things
> you don't know about.

I'm not judging you, but I am making observations.

> You don't know the whole story, and I'm not going to bore you with the details unless you
> really want me to.

It is up to you.

Fortran Dragon

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
From the Void comes Nuitari Dragon bearing this piece of Light...
[Snip]
> We try to do the second option. Its hard tho, to talk about things. I hate just claming up.
> It hurts me even more to not say anything tho, and go right on fighting. There's only a few
> times that I've ever not talked to him about something... and guess what happened. It hurt so
> bad I went right back and talked to him about it. Hiding from him doesn't get either of us
> anywhere.

No, hiding doesn't help. The best thing I have learned from The
One is that it is best to deal with things *as soon as they come up*.
The longer you wait the worse the situation will become. It is even
worse if you ignore or suppress things. Your anger tends to surface in
other areas and you have no idea where it is coming from.

[Snip]


> Honesty, I'm afraid to have children because I'm afraid I'll end up beating them like my
> mother did to me. You know about the statistic.

As long as you both clearly understand where each other is coming
from you'll be able to find something that will work for you (even if it
is a pledge to "not discuss this").

> What I like about his parents is that he
> seems so open with them. Not so with mine. I can't tell my mother anything, and when I try to
> talk to my father... he just gets mad and hangs up the phone on me. Great.

Then his parents might be a reference for the things the two of
you want to have in your marriage.

[Snip]


> Another reason I have to stay here, Fortran. I'm trying to work on -my- education so I can
> get a job and be self sufficent.

You can get a job in order to get an education, though. You would
be pretty poor for a time, but you would be independent and you would
have your education in the end.

And depending on when you and Shodan get married it could even be
a "I work and put you through school, then you work and put me through
school" that any number of couples use.

Well-Dressed

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
>How do you not let it get to you...? I try, very very hard just to ignore her. It doesn't
>work. When I'm not ready to snap her head off I'm still thinking of remarks to say
>back... ugh. And the cycle starts again every day. I'm sick of fighting with that woman.

Lose the 'unconditional respect for your parents' idea. You may want
to convince yourself that you already have, but the fact that her
opinion still matters so much to you proves that it's still there.

Know that your mother's ability to evaluate you as a person is
severely impaired; she can't see a daughter, she sees a remnant of her
failed marriage. And you are simply more than that.

Work towards getting out of the house asap. Become independant. If
your mother is anything like mine she is constantly threatening to 'do
this or I'll kick you out of the house'. Take that power away from
her. Take any power she has over you away from her.

>It used to be like, push her buttons and watch the fireworks go. Now I don't do anything
>and they go off by themselves.

I know what you're talking about...

>Any advice for dealing with her, until I am able to get out of the house? Without her
>signature, I can't get aid for college. I don't really want to lose all that money.

Questions:

Isn't there _any_ way (besides marriage) for you to be able to live on
your own?

You're 18 or older, right? Then why do you still need your mother's
signature? (I'm not from America; the most trivial things amaze me :))

Have you consider a part time job, next to your studies? I know it
eats up your time, but... having not much free time is something
you'll have to deal with sooner or later anyway.

Is it true that part of your reason to marry Shodan is to escape your
mother?

What does your mother think of the marriage?


Sven
Well-Dressed Dragon -==UDIC==-
* Holder of one (1) Money Dragon Flame Point *
-----------------------------------------------------
"I do not mind what I excrete,
cause I fear it would make a buck.
And those that cannot take the heat,
can take a flying forgive-me-if-I-hesitate"
- Primus, The Air Is Getting Slippery

cr...@interlog.com

unread,
Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
to
Fortran Dragon wrote:
-snip-
> > And what the heck are three monkies?
>
> See no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.

>
> --
>
> Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
> -=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
> Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
> rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>

heehee, typo! that last monky is supposed to speak no evil (or is that
the first one?)

Annoying Dragon

Paul Ryan

unread,
Nov 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/20/98
to
The Earth Trembles, as the Words of MdmeDis Arise from the Depths...

> In article <72vo5q$j...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, Ophidian Dragon
> <"zacwbond"@hotmail.c()m> says...

> > Uuuh, if you're incompatible, how did the relationship get that serious
> > in the first place?
>
> Love, dear boy. Love. It has absoluuuuuutly nothing to do with
> compatibility. I keep telling you - read Somerset Maugham's "Of Human
> Bondage"

Even worse than love for something like that is when two people seem to
be in love with the idea of being in love. The breakup in the case I saw
was very painful.

--
Paulon Dragon d++ e- N T+ Om U1!23!4!5!6!7'!S'!8!K!A!L!W!M!
-==(UDIC)==- u++ uC+ uF uG uLB+ uA+ nC nH+ nI nPT nS+ nT+ y?
The Other Codex http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~paulryan/Ultima/Codex.htm

Settle for what you can get, but first ask for the World
Ka'a Orto'o, Gnomic Utterances, C IV

Negate the Spell to Wish Me Well

Ibn al-Hazardous Dragon

unread,
Nov 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/20/98
to
In the hall of rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons the entity commonly
known as Samurai on Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:06:23 GMT uttered the following
message:

}Quoth Ophidian Dragon <"zacwbond"@hotmail.c()m>:
}>Nuitari Dragon wrote:
}
}>> I don't hate you all. I just for once would like to hear one
}>>-positive- thing about marriage. That's all.
}>
}>My parents have ben married for about 25 years now, and they're
}>pretty happy.
}
}*nod* Mine too. Despite outside trials and tribulations, my parents
}have remained very much in love, and perhaps even more importantly,
}best friends.

Is this the "whose parents have been married the longest contest"? Then,
mine have been married for 36 years. They started out real bad according
to my mother (the age difference is 9 years) - but got through it mainly
because of a two year stay in Australia.

}As I said before, I consider myself most fortunate I have a functional
}family. ;)

So di I. :)
-- F
Ibn al-Hazardous Dragon /\
-==(UDIC)==- F / \ F
-==(the UnSPLUTables)==- /\ /____\ /\
Wouldst thou reply, /__\/|\__/|\/__\
Eatest the pie! / || || \
_____________________________/______||__||______\___
d++++ e- N++ T+++ Om- U46!7A!W! u uC++ uF- uG-- uLB-
uA++ nC++ nR nH nP nI++ nPT+ nS+++ nT+ wM---- y a25

Allan Olley

unread,
Nov 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/20/98
to
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:57:00 -0500, mdm...@earthlink.net (MdmeDis)
wrote:

> I know what I said came across as harsh, but I believe that telling a
>person with low self esteem "you are really a wonderful person" is about
>as effective as saying "you need to cheer up" to a clinically depressed
>person.

Yeah, I realize that, I feel very inadequate knowing what to say.
Sorry, I came down on you, thanks for explaining yourself so
completely. I hope we all have the strength to overcome our personal
(non-biological) mental problems.

Destrius

unread,
Nov 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/20/98
to
...and it was written on the heavens that on Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:47:57 -0500,
the entity named Nuitari Dragon (klk...@ecs.syr.edu)
inscribed the following words in rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons:

-clip-


>You don't know the whole story, and I'm not going to bore you with the
>details unless you really want me to.

-clip-

If you want to talk about it, then do so. It's a common occurence here, and
I'm sure some Dragons would be interested to understand more so they can
help.

Destrius

unread,
Nov 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/20/98