Minefield damage with mixed fleet

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Timothy Little

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May 29, 2001, 6:45:17 AM5/29/01
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I was just testing some auxiliary ship designs and it became
important to figure out how much damage was done to ships in a small
mixed fleet (e.g. 2 or 3 ships). I looked up past newsgroup postings
for a formula and found a few guesses, but no-one seemed to know
exactly how the damage was calculated. So I tested it.

To my surprise and disgust, the damage depends on the ordering of
the designs in the ship designer!

The first listed design takes the minimum fleet damage, less one
multiple of normal damage for each other ship present. e.g. 2 nubians
(listed earlier) + 2 cruisers (listed later) in a standard minefield
with non-ramscoop engines, the nubians take 900 points between them,
calculated as 500 damage per fleet - 2 other ships * 100 damage = 300
per engine. The hull has 3 engines, so total = 900.

All later designs will take the usual per-engine damage, 100 for
standard mines and non-ram engines. In the above example, the
cruisers take 200 damage each.

The dependence upon ordering was verified by making 2 galleon
designs and 1 frigate design, in the order G1, F, G2. G1 and G2 were
identical in construction; G1 was listed before the frigate, G2 listed
after. I built two fleets, the first consisting of G1 + F, the other
consisting of G2 + F. Both were sent into a standard minefield at
high warp and both hit mines. In the first case, the G1 took 1600
points and the F took 100. In the latter, both the F and the G2 took
400 points each.

The rules were also tested with ramscoop engines and heavy
minefields, and appear to hold in those circumstances as well. The
strangeness of this mechanism might occasionally manifest in
skirmishing; for example a light sweeper design might have 300 armour
and be able to survive mine hits in pairs, but die when a single
sweeper is accompanied by a battleship.

Earlier designs attract more mines ;^)


- Tim

James McGuigan

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May 30, 2001, 5:38:50 PM5/30/01
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Timothy Little <t...@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9h6v...@freeman.little-possums.net...

> I was just testing some auxiliary ship designs and it became
> important to figure out how much damage was done to ships in a small
> mixed fleet (e.g. 2 or 3 ships). I looked up past newsgroup postings
> for a formula and found a few guesses, but no-one seemed to know
> exactly how the damage was calculated. So I tested it.

I did some tests earlier, and they where part of the rgcs FAQ:

Exact Minefield Damage:
500 (600) * # engines per ship [use ship type with most] - 100 (125) per
missing engine (ie fleet of 1 nub [3 engines] and 3 DDs [1 engine = 2 less
than a nub] = (500 * 3) - (100 * 6) = 900 damage )
Damage is spread equally among all ships, regardless of # of engines.

OR

100 (125) * total # of engines in the fleet (damage is based on # engines
each ship has)

Use the formula that does the most damage, the break point is usually 5
ships in a fleet. If any of the ships in the fleet has a ramscoop engine
(including the Enigma Pulser) then use the numbers in parentheses (). These
figures are for standard minefields, substitute 2000 (2500) and 500 (600)
instead for heavy minefields.

Damage from mines is treated like damage from torpedos in that upto half the
damage can be absorbed by shields, but ships without enough shields cannot
benifit from the shields of other ship in the fleet.
Credit: James McGuigan


> To my surprise and disgust, the damage depends on the ordering of
> the designs in the ship designer!
>
> The first listed design takes the minimum fleet damage, less one
> multiple of normal damage for each other ship present. e.g. 2 nubians
> (listed earlier) + 2 cruisers (listed later) in a standard minefield
> with non-ramscoop engines, the nubians take 900 points between them,
> calculated as 500 damage per fleet - 2 other ships * 100 damage = 300
> per engine. The hull has 3 engines, so total = 900.
>
> All later designs will take the usual per-engine damage, 100 for
> standard mines and non-ram engines. In the above example, the
> cruisers take 200 damage each.
>
> The dependence upon ordering was verified by making 2 galleon
> designs and 1 frigate design, in the order G1, F, G2. G1 and G2 were
> identical in construction; G1 was listed before the frigate, G2 listed
> after. I built two fleets, the first consisting of G1 + F, the other
> consisting of G2 + F. Both were sent into a standard minefield at
> high warp and both hit mines. In the first case, the G1 took 1600
> points and the F took 100. In the latter, both the F and the G2 took
> 400 points each.

I did a few test to confirm, and you seem to be right on this point. It
seems that this is a third method of working out damage in addition to the
other 2 which I can still verify (though the number of engines for working
out overal fleet damage does seem to be based not on the ship with the most,
but on the first ship design). Though the overal reported damage (in the
message box) is not awalys correct.

For my tests I used the ultra-miner and maxi-miner (with 1 carbonic armour),
this gives me the same overal dp per ship (1500) but with a difference in
the number of engines per ship. I had 2 sets of each design, in alternating
design order.

Now the question is what triggers it. My tests covered all the order combos
with 2 and 3 ship designs (and a few with a FF). It seems triggered when the
first ordered ship either numbers 1, or doesn't have the lowest (not joint
lowest) number of engines and the highest numbered ship doesn't get killed.

Or basically it didn't trigger (and I got equal damage), was when I used 2
groups of 2, and the ultra-miner (2 engines) had a lower design order and
the other design was a 3 engined maxi-miner, adding an FF to the fleet would
also trigger the formula. Also having enough ships to trigger the per engine
formula would trigger this formula.

> The rules were also tested with ramscoop engines and heavy
> minefields, and appear to hold in those circumstances as well. The
> strangeness of this mechanism might occasionally manifest in
> skirmishing; for example a light sweeper design might have 300 armour
> and be able to survive mine hits in pairs, but die when a single
> sweeper is accompanied by a battleship.

Didn't test ramscoops or heavys.

> Earlier designs attract more mines ;^)
>
>
> - Tim


It seems to be a third formula, but more tests need to be done to test what
triggers it.


--
Rules are written for those who lack the ability to truly reason, But for
those who can, the rules become nothing more than guidelines, And live
their lives governed not by rules but by reason.
- James McGuigan (www.starsfaq.com)


Timothy Little

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May 30, 2001, 10:09:56 PM5/30/01
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James McGuigan <ja...@starsfaq.com> wrote:
>I did some tests earlier, and they where part of the rgcs FAQ:
>
>Exact Minefield Damage:
>500 (600) * # engines per ship [use ship type with most] - 100 (125) per
>missing engine
[...]

This one definitely doesn't hold, except by accident. i.e. The ship
with most engines is the first listed design. That was one of my
first tested theories, having read the FAQ :)


>I did a few test to confirm, and you seem to be right on this point. It
>seems that this is a third method of working out damage in addition to the
>other 2 which I can still verify (though the number of engines for working
>out overal fleet damage does seem to be based not on the ship with the most,
>but on the first ship design). Though the overal reported damage (in the
>message box) is not awalys correct.

As far as I could determine, it is correct, but then a round-off
error gets applied to the final damage. As far as I can tell,
rounding downward to the next lowest % with a minimum of 1%. The
armour values for this aspect were checked by putting the ships into a
battle.


>Or basically it didn't trigger (and I got equal damage), was when I used 2
>groups of 2, and the ultra-miner (2 engines) had a lower design order and
>the other design was a 3 engined maxi-miner,

That's odd, in a test of the same parameters, I got damage
consistent with my theory. I'm using 2.6JRC3, maybe the behaviour
changed slightly?


Then again, I have been informed that there was a thread involving
Martin Dermody and Jason Cawley back in February 1999 reaching
basically the same conclusions as I.


- Tim

James McGuigan

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May 30, 2001, 11:17:40 PM5/30/01
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Timothy Little <t...@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9hb9v...@freeman.little-possums.net...

> James McGuigan <ja...@starsfaq.com> wrote:
> >I did some tests earlier, and they where part of the rgcs FAQ:
> >
> >Exact Minefield Damage:
> >500 (600) * # engines per ship [use ship type with most] - 100 (125) per
> >missing engine
> [...]
>
> This one definitely doesn't hold, except by accident. i.e. The ship
> with most engines is the first listed design. That was one of my
> first tested theories, having read the FAQ :)

Replace [use ship type with most] with [use ship design highest on the fleet
list], and it does work, this is the formula it uses to work out the overal
damage on the message box, and is valid. Though there does seem to be a
third formula, which didn't appear in my inital tests (or didn't see).

> >I did a few test to confirm, and you seem to be right on this point. It
> >seems that this is a third method of working out damage in addition to
the
> >other 2 which I can still verify (though the number of engines for
working
> >out overal fleet damage does seem to be based not on the ship with the
most,
> >but on the first ship design). Though the overal reported damage (in the
> >message box) is not awalys correct.
>
> As far as I could determine, it is correct, but then a round-off
> error gets applied to the final damage. As far as I can tell,
> rounding downward to the next lowest % with a minimum of 1%. The
> armour values for this aspect were checked by putting the ships into a
> battle.

I just checked the fleet readout. But any damage rounding is due to the way
stars works out damage, but I got a bit of this too.

> >Or basically it didn't trigger (and I got equal damage), was when I used
2
> >groups of 2, and the ultra-miner (2 engines) had a lower design order and
> >the other design was a 3 engined maxi-miner,
>
> That's odd, in a test of the same parameters, I got damage
> consistent with my theory. I'm using 2.6JRC3, maybe the behaviour
> changed slightly?

I'm using 2.6JRC3 also, though I know I did use 2.7JRC3 for my inital tests.

I managed to trigger my inital formula (equal damage) using 2 ultra-miners
and 2 maxi-miners, with the ultra-miners being on the top of the list. I got
your formula when I reversed the design order.

> Then again, I have been informed that there was a thread involving
> Martin Dermody and Jason Cawley back in February 1999 reaching
> basically the same conclusions as I.

Oh, that was a little before I started reading the NG :-)

> - Tim


--
"Freedom is state of mind" - James McGuigan
The Stars! FAQ (www.starsfaq.com)

Timothy Little

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May 31, 2001, 8:11:42 PM5/31/01
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James McGuigan <ja...@starsfaq.com> wrote:
>I managed to trigger my inital formula (equal damage) using 2 ultra-miners
>and 2 maxi-miners, with the ultra-miners being on the top of the list.

Ah, I just figured out why: your formula gives the same answer as
mine in such a case. :)

Ultra-miners have 2 engines, maxi's have 3. My formula gives
2*(500-2*100)/2 = 300 per ultra, and 3*100 = 300 per maxi. Try it
with ramscoops instead of standard engines; you'll get different
damage for each. (350 and 375 each, respectively)


- Tim

James McGuigan

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May 31, 2001, 8:37:19 PM5/31/01
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Timothy Little <t...@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9hdnd...@freeman.little-possums.net...

Well that figures, I'll add that onto my todo list to update.

John

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Jun 1, 2001, 6:07:47 PM6/1/01
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Timothy Little wrote:

> The first listed design takes the minimum fleet damage, less one
> multiple of normal damage for each other ship present. e.g. 2 nubians
> (listed earlier) + 2 cruisers (listed later) in a standard minefield
> with non-ramscoop engines, the nubians take 900 points between them,
> calculated as 500 damage per fleet - 2 other ships * 100 damage = 300
> per engine. The hull has 3 engines, so total = 900.

Impressive rediscovery. You're right about damage taken. The exact way it
happens is that while applying normal damage it counts the ships in the
fleet, then if that's less than five, adds min damage to the first
design, substracting normal damage already done to the fleet. So it's
...-4 ships... but then the first design takes normal damage too so the
end result will be the same.

BTW, an interesting effect from this bug: Have a fleet with a decoy and
freighter (that can survive a mine hit), in that order. Load freighter.
Run fleet into minefield. Freighter destoryed... or not?

--
Can I have a new cat now?

Iztok

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Jun 4, 2001, 4:42:45 AM6/4/01
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Hi!
This is not exactly the right topic but anyway...
In a recent game I sent one battleship with 4 TGFC-9 at warp 9 into
the minefield of an AI HE race and it got hit with 2500 points of
damage! The AI race _is_ HE and has only normal minelayers (I sent a
scout on the planet a turn before). Any clues what happened? I'm using
2.7j rc3 patch. The .M and .XY files are available.
BR, Iztok

James McGuigan

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Jun 4, 2001, 8:16:54 AM6/4/01
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Iztok <iztok_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b5eef0c0.01060...@posting.google.com...


Not 100% sure of why you got 2500 damage (it should be 2400), though the
damage formula is for small fleets (ie your single ship) is:

600 (you have ramscoops) * 4 engines = 2400dp (upto half applied to shields)


The speed you hit the mines is irrelivant, speed just determines the chance
you have of hitting a mine when traveling through a mine field.

LEit

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:42:40 AM6/4/01
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iztok_...@yahoo.com (Iztok) wrote in message

> This is not exactly the right topic but anyway...
> In a recent game I sent one battleship with 4 TGFC-9 at warp 9 into
> the minefield of an AI HE race and it got hit with 2500 points of
> damage!

Well, read the description on mines, and/or the help file.

You have 4 ram scoop engines on one ship, and you hit a std mine
field. You should take 600 per engine (min damage for ram scoops as
listed in the tech browser, help files, etc). That's 2400. I don't
know where the extra 100 points came from, however. Double check and
make sure it says 2500, and make sure you didn't have a scout merged
with the BB and the scout died.

Iztok

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Jun 4, 2001, 9:07:11 PM6/4/01
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I'm sorry. The real damage was 2400 points. But that was quadruple I was expecting. Let me explain:

... excerpt from Player's guide...
> Normal
>
> Effect: Blows up.
> Maximum safe speed: Warp 4
> Damage/ship: 100 (125 for ramscoops) for each engine
> Minimum fleet damage: 500 points (600 for ramscoops)

By this definition the damage in my case (1 ship, 4 ramscoops) should be
MAX(4*125, 600) = 600 points
or
4*125 + 600 = 1100
but neither is true!

... LEit (pro...@hotmail.com) ...
> You should take 600 per engine (min damage for ram scoops...

This is obviously right, but...

> ... as listed in the tech browser, help files, etc).

Hmm, who is in charge for this stuff? I'd like to complain... :-(
Thank you both for the explanation.
BR, Iztok

Sean

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Jun 4, 2001, 9:18:19 PM6/4/01
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>By this definition the damage in my case (1 ship, 4 ramscoops) should be
> MAX(4*125, 600) = 600 points
>or
> 4*125 + 600 = 1100
>but neither is true!

No; you've misread an admittedly less-than-crystal-celar explaination/listing.

>> Damage/ship: 100 (125 for ramscoops) for each engine

That is multiplied by the number of ships. This becomes the first value.

>> Minimum fleet damage: 500 points (600 for ramscoops)

This is the second value -- the damage listed is, like the first entry, PER
ENGINE.

Now ... take the HIGHER of the two values.

So, for that design and that minefield ... one ship, two, three, even four
ships ... always a 2400 point hit.

Five ships would be a 3000 point hit (600 per ship).


-- Sean

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