Steffen's lmps
Tangent60
lmps is driving me nuts! How do I get it to be like that? Is it something you
do with the mouse, or is it just experience? Thanks...
Tangent60
I can see you laughing at me right about now. :) Well, right now, I can make it
to the blue key fairly easily. I'm using a slower, safer route than the one
Anthe used, and it seems to be working so far. I have put off n4m1 for just a
while, as I've been working on a QBasic ray caster and also I have taken lots
of "breaks" where I see how far I can get in in a DOOM II nightmare run. But I
think I'm making progress, and I'll eventually come out with a nice n4m1-meh...
P.S. I've managed so far to get very, very close to Steffen's smooth style.
Just for DOOM playing purpose, I've set mouse acceleration to 0, increased my
mouse sensitivity just enough to have reasonal turning freedom, and I try to
move very slowly through lmps. (I've found that whenever you run back a lmp,
you find that you look at least 2x as excited as you actually were!)
Rob Ellwood
...and we can get them where?
--
Rob Ellwood
To reply, delete the anti-spam stuff in the address.
Tangent60
>made it look very easy.
I'm glad you got it - I thought there might be something wrong with my mailing
system when sending programs. :)
Tangent60
Ahem...well...The first lmp of his I found (or actually lmps, since it was an
exam) was his DOOM I Schwarzenegger run. It can be found at
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/lmps/dht-exams/dht5, I believe. Check his lmps
- it's very, very smooth and "professional", whereas even the best DOOMers in
the world like Anthe Kren still have a little jerky lmps. (I'm starting to
agree with him; such smoothness is almost inhuman.) He also has a 30nm6520
somewhere, which is VERY smooth. He recorded this one in slow-motion, so that
one doesn't *count*! He probably records his lmps at what seems to him a very
slow speed, and when he plays it back, it looks like an average
Steffen-Winterfeldt-like lmp. My recent motto for this is, "lmps in recording
are more excited-looking than they appear."
Tangent60
>has ever been *proved*.
Really...? Wow. I thought about that possibility, but I have trouble accepting
it.. In fact, when I was getting used to playing DOOM II smoothly, just like
his 30nm6520, I looked back at his D1S exam and thought, "How jerky." I think
I'll try to see if I can ever replicate Steffen's style. ;)
Silver
Wow! All these positive vibes! (copyright D Sutherland)
You know, with this attitude I think you'll actually do it!
Go for it,
Silver
Hegyi Adam
I just have to say that even though Steffen's style is truly beautiful,
his demos are believed to be cheated and are not part of COMPET-N
any more. I personally believe that Steffen's stuff is way over-appreciated
on the net. Go and see Thomas "Panter" Pilger's Nightmare! Run (30nm4949.zip)
and his other Nightmare! demos if you want to see a real player doing it.
Anthe, Istvan, Peo, Daniel and Panter are all excellent DOOM players,
please appreciate their effort, not just Steffen's cheated efforts.
It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
Bye,
Adam Hegyi
---
Administrator and maintaner of COMPET-N
ftp://ftp.sch.bme.hu/pub/compet-n/
http://ural2.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n
Member of DOOM2 Done Quick
http://www.planetquake.com/qdq/d2dq.html
Rich B.
>
> It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
I don't really want to record a Compet-N demo in slo-mo (although I am
mediocre), but I *am* curious: how do you do it? And how do you get such
a demo to play back at normal speed? And how would you detect such a
demo?
The reason I am asking is because if I ever do finish my "masterpiece",
I'd like to include a demo or three. Something showing the trickier
parts and hints as to the secrets...or maybe just an all-out Banzai
run...Anyway, it would be easier to do the show-me demo in slo-mo...but
how?
--
Rich B.
rbre...@webt.com
..."Borland C++???"...
...(Hell, I can't get *Notepad* to work)...
opulent
> > It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
> might do it ok.
> John. Please observe Reply-To: address.
> http://www.jken.demon.co.uk/doom.htm
Well Keniry... you're right.
But you and Hegyi are two of only about 20 players who can look DOWN at
Winterfeldt and Girlich. I'd list them, but you know who they are.
I think Hegyi was just trying to downplay Steffen's 30nm6520 demo and
applaud Pilger's 30nm4949. The former, having been around(and passed
around) for so long, is too commended as the quintessential Doom2 demo.
I agree with Hegyi, let's put an end to it, and give Pilger the
spotlight that he deserves.
thanks for listening,
Opulent
Tangent60
>
>I just have to say that even though Steffen's style is truly beautiful,
>his demos are believed to be cheated and are not part of COMPET-N
>any more. I personally believe that Steffen's stuff is way over-appreciated
>on the net. Go and see Thomas "Panter" Pilger's Nightmare! Run (30nm4949.zip)
>and his other Nightmare! demos if you want to see a real player doing it.
>Anthe, Istvan, Peo, Daniel and Panter are all excellent DOOM players,
>please appreciate their effort, not just Steffen's cheated efforts.
>
>
>Adam Hegyi
Yeah, I know. The "one-gametick-UT" 'proof' of his slow-moiton recording is not
convincing to me (plenty of times I have managed to press keys fast enough to
manage a one UT door-open, switch-flip, etc.) but there are many other things
that made me suspicious. I now come to the hard-to-accept belief that Steffen
cheated, and I sadly look down to him now. But...what fantastic lmps! Of course
he cheated to get them, but *wow*! I've found it a good, even if unrealistic,
goal, to try to replicate his playing style. ;)
P.S. The 30-level runs by Steffen and Panter are equally "impressive" to me. In
fact, I have a batch file that plays one or the other many times in a row, so I
can just lie back and watch non-stop DOOM action. I have a fun time
"pretending" that Steffen didn't cheat on 30nm6520. But don't worry; I still
look up to practically everyone in the COMPET-N, especially Anthe and
Demonlord. ;)
Rez
Rb> Hegyi Adam wrote:
>
> It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
Rb>
Rb> I don't really want to record a Compet-N demo in slo-mo (although I am
Rb> mediocre), but I *am* curious: how do you do it? And how do you get
Rb>such a demo to play back at normal speed? And how would you detect such
Rb> a demo?
I've tried such a utility, to make DOOM run in slomo. (No, I won't
say where I got it. :) IMO it was a lot HARDER than playing at
normal speed, and having had the 486 for so long, I was already
used to laggy play and know the tricks for dealing with it (the
needful control techniques are quite different). Any demo I'd make
that way would look like shit compared even to my normal play :)
If you ask me, the notion that slomo makes things easier is a bit
screwy, even if you supposedly "have longer to react". Why not just
play on a 386 and forget the slomo util -- the effect is exactly
the same!!
As to detecting such a demo, whasisname who was recently accused of
cheating pretty much proved that detection CANNOT be reliably done.
He had 3 demos available for anyone to guess about, and the only
reason I guessed right was because he made mistakes in the cheated
demos that are the SAME mistakes forced by the lag from a very slow
system; and because I've spent most of my career on a laggy system,
I recognised the symptoms. Physically, the demos were not reliably
distinguishable. I don't care what anyone says about percentages of
various tics as reported by LMP decompilers, if you look at the raw
binary for enough legit LMPs, and directly compare it to cheated
LMPs, you can see that method of analysis is highly suspect.
I've seen LMPs that were supposedly not cheated, but where the
player clearly had IDDT/IDDT active -- he had NOT looked around the
corner at ANY time, yet knew EXACTLY when to step out and blast the
oncoming monster, or knew EXACTLY when to open a door to blast a
randomly-passing monster that due to the layout, he could NOT have
otherwise known was there. I've seen that sort of thing in LMPs
from at least two high-end players (including one who is highly
respected), and strongly suspect it in a few more.
The truth is, we have to rely on personal honour, because there is
no dead sure way to guarantee absolutely no cheating occurs, unless
you want to stand over the player while he makes the recording.
Rb> The reason I am asking is because if I ever do finish my
Rb> "masterpiece", I'd like to include a demo or three. Something showing
Rb> the trickier parts and hints as to the secrets...or maybe just an
Rb> all-out Banzai run...Anyway, it would be easier to do the show-me demo
Rb> in slo-mo...but how?
See above for why I think that's nuts :)
My masterpiece will be when I get two rooms with a working door
between them, and maybe an exit. :)
~REZ~
___ Cold Wave/QWK v2.12
opulent
> Regardless of what they did or didn't do with their lmps its
> undeniable that they opened up a lot of possibilities for nitemare
> playing, discovering new routes, showing what was possible etc.
True... I like what Kren says in his old textfiles for his nm runs:
'Now that I see that it can be done(the cheated ones that he didn't know
were cheated) I KNOW I can do it.'
He pushed himself to redo what had never been done! ...and getting to
level 23 was incredible.
> I told Panter that what he has done is THE Doom playing
> acheivement. Its the lmp of lmps and outranks all others. Its also
> recognizably played by a human being who gets more nervous as the lmp
> goes on, which I like. I'd much rather watch an imperfect demo
> honestly played, where you sense the guy struggling to survive than a
> slo-mo effort with no sense of danger.
OH YES!
> Panter, Adam, Anders and the other new players are all *far* better
> than me I'm just not in that league at all.
err.. no. Ok, maybe you aren't as good as a Sjoblom, but those top 11
players or so sit just above about 15 others(of which you are one), and
then the list drops off fast.
There are a lot of advantages now too: BOOM, windows-platform keyboard
configs, faster machines, etc...
later,
Opulent
TheSnake
a lot of demos out there using that.
Hegyi Adam wrote in message ...
>Hi,
>
>I just have to say that even though Steffen's style is truly beautiful,
>his demos are believed to be cheated and are not part of COMPET-N
>any more. I personally believe that Steffen's stuff is way over-appreciated
>on the net. Go and see Thomas "Panter" Pilger's Nightmare! Run
(30nm4949.zip)
>and his other Nightmare! demos if you want to see a real player doing it.
>Anthe, Istvan, Peo, Daniel and Panter are all excellent DOOM players,
>please appreciate their effort, not just Steffen's cheated efforts.
>
TheSnake
used to correspond all the time, but his e-mail has changed.
Tangent60 wrote in message <19981111090539...@ng126.aol.com>...
>>Hi,
>>
>>I just have to say that even though Steffen's style is truly beautiful,
>>his demos are believed to be cheated and are not part of COMPET-N
>>any more. I personally believe that Steffen's stuff is way
over-appreciated
>>on the net. Go and see Thomas "Panter" Pilger's Nightmare! Run
(30nm4949.zip)
>>and his other Nightmare! demos if you want to see a real player doing it.
>>Anthe, Istvan, Peo, Daniel and Panter are all excellent DOOM players,
>>please appreciate their effort, not just Steffen's cheated efforts.
>>It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
>>
>>Bye,
>>
>>Adam Hegyi
>
TheSnake
Hegyi Adam wrote in message ...
>
Hegyi Adam
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, TheSnake wrote:
> Demonlord is still my favorite Doom player. Has anyone heard from him? We
> used to correspond all the time, but his e-mail has changed.
Demonlord's current mail is or...@cheetah.se,
but that one is NOT his personal e-mail address, he doesn't have any,
the above address is the mail order address of the computer shop he's
working at. I used that address to exchange a few mails with him
when we discovered him again, but PLEASE don't mail him there,
he doesn't do anything with DOOM anyway.
If you're interested, you can read the COMPET-N Players Hall of Fame
at:
http://ural2.hszk.bme.hu/~ha211/compet-n/players.html where you can
find more info on the players including Demonlord.
(Sorry for the real crappy design)
Many posts in slowmotion, sorry but John and me cannot answer all of those,
if you have any specific questions please mail me personally.
One thing though: I will not give away any slowmotion utility to anyone,
and please any people who have it don't distribute! You never know
what the guy you're giving it to will do with it. (Nice sentence!)
One more: we are currently working on the new Plutonia UV demopack,
if you have Final DOOM, don't dare to miss it because it's gonna rock!
The team members are the best maxkills players still active.
More info soon.
bullicante
cheating because the player knows exactly where every monster and trap
is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon and
techniques to use at the right time.
Rob Ellwood
> <snip>
> ...the player knows exactly where every monster and trap
> is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon and
> techniques to use at the right time.
20 seconds before reading this, I posted a
demo file + WAD to alt.binaries.doom, showing the first
time I went against that level. I'll probably be posting
more such soon.
Tangent60
no help, the player could "know" when an enemy was around the corner, even if
this was by pure coincidence. I've seen this kind of thing in Steffen's lmps,
but I believe such things are just results of the player *thinking* in the
lmps: I killed two cacodemons over there; I know there are three over there to
start out; I didn't see the third one this time; I'm going around this way;
this means remaining cacodemon will go this way; I will meet up with the
cacodemon spontaneously right about....HERE. And s/he blasts away with the
rocket launcher immediately when in that location. Of course, such examples are
generally less simpler than this: who would miss killing one of those things?
But anyway, the general idea holds. But you never know when IDDT is snuck in.
You can bet, however, that every DOOM Schwarzenegger (in its theoretical sense)
refused to play all the maps with absolutely no analyzation (or copying of
another Schwarzenegger's lmps.. <G>).
>Is this really serious cheating? If so, then the whole demo concept is
>cheating because the player knows exactly where every monster and trap
>is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon and
>techniques to use at the right time.
>
Rez
Bu> Is this really serious cheating? If so, then the whole demo concept
Bu> is cheating because the player knows exactly where every monster and
Bu> trap is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon
Bu> and techniques to use at the right time.
Bu>
Bu> Rez wrote:
> I've seen LMPs that were supposedly not cheated, but where the
> player clearly had IDDT/IDDT active
Where do we draw the line on what is "serious" cheating? Which is
more advantageous to the player, slomo or using IDDT as "radar" ??
How do you tell when someone has loaded a brightness patch, whose
absence during playback won't affect sync? The answer is, you
can't. And you can't be sure by how they play, either. I get along
well in the dark because I have gamma all the way up and turn my
monitor up bright (it doesn't look as good, but otherwise the view
makes my middle-aged eyes too tired too fast), and even out in Real
Life I have unusually good night vision, and my eyes are much more
sensitive to subtle colour differences than most people's -- hence
you'll rarely catch me out with a spectre in the dark, and I'm sure
some people would think I'd cheated because of that.
So is turning up gamma and monitor brightness a cheat? Compared to
what? What about high resolution and a fast enough system to
support it at 35fps? is that cheating?
How well someone plays otherwise (ie. better than their normal
play) isn't a good indication either -- I've had "hot" days when
I can easily do maps that normally give me a lot of trouble, and to
watch the results you'd hardly think it was the same player.
My point really is that we have NO GOOD WAY to determine who cheats
and who doesn't. Oh, sure, sometimes it might be obvious, but I'd
bet real money there are a lot of competition .LMPs out there that
are cheated, and no one is the wiser. Are these .LMPs really all
=that= much better than the same player without the advantange of
a cheat? From what I saw in whasisname's examples, the answer is --
NO. Of his three "guess which ones are cheated" samples, the best-
looking demo was also the one that wasn't cheated!!
Rather than try to enforce a strict no-cheating policy that does
nothing to prevent subtle cheats (because realistically, it can't),
why not have a "cheated" category of competition? :)
If you make a big deal about "No cheating, or we'll throw you out"
it actually encourages people (especially teenagers, and face it,
a lot of young'uns are among the best players) to see what they can
get away with: "Nyah nyah, I cheated and you didn't catch me!"
Assume honesty, and you'll get more honesty, because there's less
temptation to try beating the system when the system doesn't get
its shorts in a knot at the least hint of a discrepancy.
Competition is all well and good, and it can be lots of fun, but
when pursuit of the almighty best time overshadows sportsmanship,
both for the players and the judges, it's gone too far.
Rez
Re> bullicante wrote:
> ...the player knows exactly where every monster and trap
>is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon
>and techniques to use at the right time.
Re>
Re> 20 seconds before reading this, I posted a
Re> demo file + WAD to alt.binaries.doom, showing the first
Re> time I went against that level. I'll probably be posting
Re> more such soon.
Cool, I'd like to see more of that sort of thing.
I don't do competition .LMPs myself, generally I'm not that good,
and I don't find making a perfect run all that interesting. When I
do record, it's usually in UV and my 2nd run EVER on a given map,
having only done it once in Sk2 before -- so I get some surprises.
Usually on a medium-hard map, this means I just barely make it,
often with lots of funny (or stupid) mistakes and doing things the
hard way, and not knowing where half the secrets are yet. But IMO
recording a map cold, or with only one prior run on a lower skill
setting & NO peeking at it in an editor, gives a much better
indication of how good a player =really= is in everyday play,
rather than of how well they =trained= themselves for a given map.
Of course for such a .LMP you only have someone's word for it
whether they did the map more than once before, but LIS at some
point we have to assume honesty, so it might as well be here.
As to memorized routes -- yeah, they "look better" because there
are few or no mistakes, but it's occurred to me that a lot of the
best players have left DOOM because they got jaded and burned out
by the process of memorizing maps that by the time you know the
"best" route, are becoming monotonous. And as someone here pointed
out, it's really more involving when you can feel like you're
watching a live and imperfect human, not a perfect robot.
~REZ~
(who has a pretty good movie .LMP of Chaos Project 01-06, made on
my 2nd trip thru those maps :)
___ Cold Wave/QWK v2.12
Rez
Ta> From: tang...@aol.com (Tangent60)
Ta> Subject: Re: Steffen's lmps
Ta>
Ta> No, it's not. I think what Rez meant is that, where map analyzation
Ta> would be no help, the player could "know" when an enemy was around the
Ta> corner, even if this was by pure coincidence. I've seen this kind of
Ta> thing in Steffen's lmps, but I believe such things are just results of
Ta> the player *thinking* in the lmps:
That's just smart play. We all do that to some extent. "By now the
other caco ought to be arriving, so I should go look for him now"
and so forth. Or "I have time to go pick up those supplies before
the rest of the horde arrives" and be able to figure about when you
need to be back on the job.
The case that really stood out was nothing like that. The player
has been off doing something else, then sneaks up to one corner of
a building (where monsters could just as easily go around the other
side), NEVER looks around the corner, stands there waiting for a
good 15 seconds, then times it exactly right to step out and blast
the hapless oncoming monsters point-blank. There are several other
spots where the player does something similar.
I won't say who or which map, because it's a hard map and getting
a full recording any way you can is still a tough job, and I don't
think it's of any use to fling accusations around. Just using it as
an example of how there is more than one way to cheat.
The first time I noticed this IDDT cheating (in another map
recorded by another player) was on a map I know pretty well, &
there is just no way he could have known that if he waited X-long,
then opened the door, the LS that had drifted in from somewhere
else would just happen to be handy on the other side of the door,
so much easier to blast thru the door than if he can swoop on you
in the open. The normal thing to do would have been to simply open
the door and keep going, not stand there and wait for several
seconds for the best shot at a monster that you can't see or hear
or even know for sure exists (being leftover from a long-dead PE).
George Lewandowski
wrote:
>> Hegyi Adam <ha...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
>> > It takes a mediocre player to do a Nightmare! run in slowmotion!
>> Depends how you define "mediocre". I'd guess the top 10-15% of Doomers
>> might do it ok.
>> John. Please observe Reply-To: address.
>> http://www.jken.demon.co.uk/doom.htm
>
>Well Keniry... you're right.
>But you and Hegyi are two of only about 20 players who can look DOWN at
>Winterfeldt and Girlich. I'd list them, but you know who they are.
>
>I think Hegyi was just trying to downplay Steffen's 30nm6520 demo and
>applaud Pilger's 30nm4949. The former, having been around(and passed
>around) for so long, is too commended as the quintessential Doom2 demo.
>I agree with Hegyi, let's put an end to it, and give Pilger the
>spotlight that he deserves.
>
I just found 30nm6520 in /Movies, but I can't seem to locate 30nm4949.
Where can I get this one?
And thanks for this whole thread. I enjoy the work of the masters,
and this has given me some leads on who to watch.
>thanks for listening,
>Opulent
George Lewandowski lewan...@daugherty.com
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Gaston Lahaut
> I just found 30nm6520 in /Movies, but I can't seem to locate 30nm4949.
> Where can I get this one?
ftp://ftp.sch.bme.hu/pub/compet-n/incoming/30nm4949.zip
--
Gaston Lahaut
Author of Mordeth, Home Page at
http://www.warande.uu.nl/~glahaut/mordeth.htm
A Maintainer of Doomworld at
http://www.doomworld.com
--
NOTE: Replace 'NOSPAM' with 'STUD' in reply-to address when mailing me
Tangent60
particular instance involves IDDT,IDDT cheating, but other than that, I can say
that if it is not cheating, it is good analyzation or very much experience.
(The latter things are feasible IMO! ;)
Tangent60
>more advantageous to the player, slomo or using IDDT as "radar" ??
>
>How do you tell when someone has loaded a brightness patch, whose
>absence during playback won't affect sync? The answer is, you
>can't. And you can't be sure by how they play, either. I get along
>well in the dark because I have gamma all the way up and turn my
>monitor up bright (it doesn't look as good, but otherwise the view
>makes my middle-aged eyes too tired too fast), and even out in Real
>Life I have unusually good night vision, and my eyes are much more
>sensitive to subtle colour differences than most people's -- hence
>you'll rarely catch me out with a spectre in the dark, and I'm sure
>some people would think I'd cheated because of that.
This is all MO, but I would say whatever didn't involve the things Id didn't
"want" us to know DURING THE GAMEPLAY, then it would be cheating. Thus, since
IDDT is a "code," it would be cheating, and brightness would not be such - they
put that in there and said basically, "Here it is; use it." This would also
include looking at map editors as NOT cheating.
>So is turning up gamma and monitor brightness a cheat? Compared to
>what? What about high resolution and a fast enough system to
>support it at 35fps? is that cheating?
>
>How well someone plays otherwise (ie. better than their normal
>play) isn't a good indication either -- I've had "hot" days when
>I can easily do maps that normally give me a lot of trouble, and to
>watch the results you'd hardly think it was the same player.
>
>My point really is that we have NO GOOD WAY to determine who cheats
>and who doesn't. Oh, sure, sometimes it might be obvious, but I'd
>bet real money there are a lot of competition .LMPs out there that
>are cheated, and no one is the wiser. Are these .LMPs really all
>=that= much better than the same player without the advantange of
>a cheat? From what I saw in whasisname's examples, the answer is --
>NO. Of his three "guess which ones are cheated" samples, the best-
>looking demo was also the one that wasn't cheated!!
I think that might be Andy Kempling. (predicted laughter)
Do you know where I can find those lmps?
>Rather than try to enforce a strict no-cheating policy that does
>nothing to prevent subtle cheats (because realistically, it can't),
>why not have a "cheated" category of competition? :)
Good idea! That was done in DHT (with "techno titles") but they took those
things out in DHT6. (Right when I was learning how to use LMPC! :( ) I think
this will separate the *true* DOOMers like Panter and Anthe from supposed
che...people who cheated, like maybe Steffen, but it won't eliminate his lmps.
Sure, Steffen may be not as good a player in reality as he first looked, but
his style is still great to drool over, even if it is "unfeasible". (I don't
think it is, anyway! Set mouse sensitivity & speed to lowest, no acceleration,
and a REALLY big mousepad.... ;)
>If you make a big deal about "No cheating, or we'll throw you out"
>it actually encourages people (especially teenagers, and face it,
>a lot of young'uns are among the best players)
Oh, that's terrible. :)
I'm 15 and I refuse even to download a slow-mo recorder (I think it'll corrupt
my true nm skill anyway!). I sure hope there aren't others out there givin' me
a bad name...
>to see what they can
>get away with: "Nyah nyah, I cheated and you didn't catch me!"
>Assume honesty, and you'll get more honesty, because there's less
>temptation to try beating the system when the system doesn't get
>its shorts in a knot at the least hint of a discrepancy.
>
>Competition is all well and good, and it can be lots of fun, but
>when pursuit of the almighty best time overshadows sportsmanship,
>both for the players and the judges, it's gone too far.
Agreed.
Rez
Ta> From: tang...@aol.com (Tangent60)
Ta> Subject: Re: Steffen's lmps
Ta> I guess then I need more info...I can probably try to figure out
Ta> whether a particular instance involves IDDT,IDDT cheating, but other
Ta>than that, I can say that if it is not cheating, it is good analyzation
Ta> or very much experience. (The latter things are feasible IMO! ;)
Considering one can never be 100% sure anyway, I don't worry how it
was made so long as it doesn't detract from the demo -- I'm more
interested in a .LMP that shows me an interesting way to do a level
that I'm already familiar with, and comparing how I approach it,
than I am in whether it was of, um, questionable provenance :)
BTW can someone tell me where to get Steffen's infamous LMPs??
Tangent60
Steffen's infamous lmps. Almost LOL. :)
You can find them at ftp.sch.bme.hu/pub/compet-n, I think, unless Adam Hegyi
removed them. If they aren't there, try
ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/lmps/compet-n. He created his 30nm6520, and I believe
he holds, according to the chart there, the title for the fastest episode 1 and
2 runs (on ultra-violence). You can also find his DOOM I Schwarzenegger exam at
ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/lmps/dht-exams.
Tangent60
>ago by Anthe, and I think Anders Johnsen currently has it. For the
>most up to date info look at ftp.sch.bme.hu/pub/compet-n
And to think I was basing my attempts at those records... :(
Sir Robin
I have the 32 level nightmare run stored on my HD...
If you wan't it I can mail it to you...
+AD4Afg-REZ+AH4-
// Sir Robin a.k.a Jani Saksa - Member of TeamTNT
// Sir Robin's DooM Castle:
// http://doomnation.com/robin/
Herman Bouma
c121784, or Yahoo pager, im bibllyboblly, or email me a
tbibll...@yahoo.com
Rez wrote in message <98111313...@eqcity.ktb.net>...
> -=> Bulli...@yahoo.com spake unto All <=-
>
> Bu> Is this really serious cheating? If so, then the whole demo concept
> Bu> is cheating because the player knows exactly where every monster and
> Bu> trap is in advance, can plan his route and know exactly which weapon
> Bu> and techniques to use at the right time.
> Bu>
> Bu> Rez wrote:
> > I've seen LMPs that were supposedly not cheated, but where the
> > player clearly had IDDT/IDDT active
>
>Where do we draw the line on what is "serious" cheating? Which is
>more advantageous to the player, slomo or using IDDT as "radar" ??
>
>How do you tell when someone has loaded a brightness patch, whose
>absence during playback won't affect sync? The answer is, you
>can't. And you can't be sure by how they play, either. I get along
>well in the dark because I have gamma all the way up and turn my
>monitor up bright (it doesn't look as good, but otherwise the view
>makes my middle-aged eyes too tired too fast), and even out in Real
>Life I have unusually good night vision, and my eyes are much more
>sensitive to subtle colour differences than most people's -- hence
>you'll rarely catch me out with a spectre in the dark, and I'm sure
>some people would think I'd cheated because of that.
>
>So is turning up gamma and monitor brightness a cheat? Compared to
>what? What about high resolution and a fast enough system to
>support it at 35fps? is that cheating?
>
>How well someone plays otherwise (ie. better than their normal
>play) isn't a good indication either -- I've had "hot" days when
>I can easily do maps that normally give me a lot of trouble, and to
>watch the results you'd hardly think it was the same player.
>
>My point really is that we have NO GOOD WAY to determine who cheats
>and who doesn't. Oh, sure, sometimes it might be obvious, but I'd
>bet real money there are a lot of competition .LMPs out there that
>are cheated, and no one is the wiser. Are these .LMPs really all
>=that= much better than the same player without the advantange of
>a cheat? From what I saw in whasisname's examples, the answer is --
>NO. Of his three "guess which ones are cheated" samples, the best-
>looking demo was also the one that wasn't cheated!!
>
>Rather than try to enforce a strict no-cheating policy that does
>nothing to prevent subtle cheats (because realistically, it can't),
>why not have a "cheated" category of competition? :)
>
>If you make a big deal about "No cheating, or we'll throw you out"
>it actually encourages people (especially teenagers, and face it,
>a lot of young'uns are among the best players) to see what they can
>get away with: "Nyah nyah, I cheated and you didn't catch me!"
>Assume honesty, and you'll get more honesty, because there's less
>temptation to try beating the system when the system doesn't get
>its shorts in a knot at the least hint of a discrepancy.
>
>Competition is all well and good, and it can be lots of fun, but
>when pursuit of the almighty best time overshadows sportsmanship,
>both for the players and the judges, it's gone too far.
>
>