Will Deep ever run in Win95?
Lewis W. Beard
To the Creator(s) of DeeP,
Will it ever run under Windows 95?? I hate having to shut down my box for
ANYTHING.
Lewis
--
The "Dirty Work" Editor of COAST TO COAST, The Glenn Hughes Electronic
Fanzine
GLENN HUGHES WWW PAGE: http://oscar.teclink.net/~lewis/gh/a_glenn.html
"There Ain't No More Cane On The Brazos; Whoa-Oh-Ho.....Oh......
Well They Ground It All Up In Molasses; Whoa-Oh-Ho.....Oh-Ho..."
-Traditional
Jack Vermeulen
On 3 May 1996 01:39:46 GMT, Lewis W. Beard <le...@teclink.net> wrote:
>To the Creator(s) of DeeP,
>
>Will it ever run under Windows 95?? I hate having to shut down my box for
>ANYTHING.
We're working on it. We have the basics done, but we have a long way
to go. DeeP95's progress is periodically updated at:
http://www.wolfenet.com/~sbs/win95.html
Simultaneous development for the DOS product is also in progress since
it's easier to develop new concepts in DOS. For example, the next
release will let you view/export/import Duke Nukem 3d graphics for use
in DOOM levels. Cool, huh?
If you have any other questions about DeeP, feel free to e-mail me.
Jack Vermeulen
--
Visit the Official DeeP home page: http://www.wolfenet.com/~sbs/
Download DeeP from these FTP sites:
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/newstuff/deep850s.zip
ftp://ftp.wolfenet.com/pub/sbs/deep850s.zip <-- FAST!!
Questions relating to DeeP? E-mail: s...@wolfenet.com
Drake O'Brien
s...@wolfenet.com (Jack Vermeulen) wrote:
>On 3 May 1996 01:39:46 GMT, Lewis W. Beard <le...@teclink.net> wrote:
>>To the Creator(s) of DeeP,
>>
>>Will it ever run under Windows 95?? I hate having to shut down my box for
>>ANYTHING.
>We're working on it. We have the basics done, but we have a long way
>to go. DeeP95's progress is periodically updated at:
>http://www.wolfenet.com/~sbs/win95.html
>Simultaneous development for the DOS product is also in progress since
>it's easier to develop new concepts in DOS. For example, the next
>release will let you view/export/import Duke Nukem 3d graphics for use
>in DOOM levels. Cool, huh?
>If you have any other questions about DeeP, feel free to e-mail me.
>Jack Vermeulen
I've been impressed with DeeP, tho' I can't use it (can only look at
it) on my dinky little computer. But maybe you should give this
duk3d-->doom graphics thing a 2nd thought. Although it sounds cool
it might open up a legal nightmare. Unless you also produced a small
portable utility that did an extraction/insertion on the other end,
like DeuSF does for doom sprites/flats, the wads will contain duke3d
graphics and won't be legally distributable, will they? What would
cdrom.com do, for example, if all of a sudden it started getting
flooded with wads that infringed duke3d copyright, and threats of
lawsuit? Would it be a surprise to see the doom site shut down?
Jack Vermeulen
>s...@wolfenet.com (Jack Vermeulen) wrote:
>
>>On 3 May 1996 01:39:46 GMT, Lewis W. Beard <le...@teclink.net> wrote:
>
>>>To the Creator(s) of DeeP,
>>>
>>>Will it ever run under Windows 95?? I hate having to shut down my box for
>>>ANYTHING.
>
>>We're working on it. We have the basics done, but we have a long way
>>to go. DeeP95's progress is periodically updated at:
>>http://www.wolfenet.com/~sbs/win95.html
>
>>Simultaneous development for the DOS product is also in progress since
>>it's easier to develop new concepts in DOS. For example, the next
>>release will let you view/export/import Duke Nukem 3d graphics for use
>>in DOOM levels. Cool, huh?
>I've been impressed with DeeP, tho' I can't use it (can only look at
>it) on my dinky little computer. But maybe you should give this
>duk3d-->doom graphics thing a 2nd thought. Although it sounds cool
>it might open up a legal nightmare.
No more an issue than that which already exists and that which has
already been done. In fact, since DeeP imports any PCX graphic and
pastes it on top of any texture (including DOOM's own graphics), the
issue of DUKE NUKEM 3D graphics is hardly any different. In fact,
your statements apply to ANY graphics editor that you use to copy
copyrighted works and then distribute. Wintex has exactly the same
problem.
> Unless you also produced a small portable utility that did an extraction/insertion on the other end,
>like DeuSF does for doom sprites/flats, the wads will contain duke3d
DeuSF is used for "new" graphics". If the "new" graphics violate a
copyright, DeuSF does nothing to cure that problem. Merely
separating them into parts to be recombined does nothing for the point
you made. If something is copyrighted, you can't distribute it.
However, it's not that difficult to change a "texture" pattern to
overcome this problem.
> What would cdrom.com do, for example, if all of a sudden it started getting
>flooded with wads that infringed duke3d copyright, and threats of
>lawsuit? Would it be a surprise to see the doom site shut down?
There are already lots of levels on cdrom.com with "copyright"
problems, that's why you don't see them on Compuserve or AOL. I think
the only problem occurs if someone is doing this for profit and that
person has lots of money, since only them is there a monetary reason
to care. Hence, Compuserve and AOL have a problem (they distribute
for profit really) and they have deep pockets (no pun intended).
So in summary, it looks like the type of "copying" that's been done
(just look at all the web sites), is tolerated. Heck, it's free
advertising for them for pete's sake. They probably love the idea of
the pretty ladies being shown in DOOM levels!! (please, no moral
lecture from anyone).
Jack Vermeulen
--
Visit the Official DeeP home page: http://www.wolfenet.com/~sbs/
Download DeeP from these FTP sites:
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/utils/level_edit/deep850s.zip
Frans P. de Vries
Drake O'Brien (a13...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
} like DeuSF does for doom sprites/flats, the wads will contain duke3d
} cdrom.com do, for example, if all of a sudden it started getting
} flooded with wads that infringed duke3d copyright, and threats of
} lawsuit? Would it be a surprise to see the doom site shut down?
Nope, such levels would simply be rejected from the archive. This
already happens for PWADs that include eg. all DOOM sprites (because the
author didn't know about DeuSF or NWT) or noticable amounts of graphics
from other games like Heretic or Hexen, as well as modified levels from
the original id/Raven games.
We have to do this because Walnut Creek is a commercial company, and
there would indeed be the possibility of a lawsuit in case of serious
copyright infringements.
This doesn't mean there are no levels with possible copyright problems
in the archive, because a lot of stuff was inherited from the period
before the primary archive moved to cdrom.com, and because checking all
incoming files takes a lot of time. However, since I started helping
out Joost, checks have become a little more stringent ;-)
--
Frans P. de Vries | f...@ftp.cdrom.com | Doom/Quake archive backup maintainer
Tom Gibson
> This doesn't mean there are no levels with possible copyright problems
> in the archive, because a lot of stuff was inherited from the period
> before the primary archive moved to cdrom.com, and because checking all
> incoming files takes a lot of time. However, since I started helping
> out Joost, checks have become a little more stringent ;-)
I'm amazed at how many such infringements there turn out to be in M.Mori.
Adam Williamson
In article <319ACA...@nwlink.com>, Tom Gibson <mas...@nwlink.com>
writes
Hmmmm? Interested...I didn't notice any (well, the combinations of
Id/TiC patches...but apart from that...)
--
Adam Williamson, D1M - ad...@scss.demon.co.uk
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Williamsons/
"Muahahahahahahahahaha!" - Friday
Tomasz Slonski
Tom Gibson (mas...@nwlink.com) wrote:
: > This doesn't mean there are no levels with possible copyright problems
: > in the archive, because a lot of stuff was inherited from the period
: > before the primary archive moved to cdrom.com, and because checking all
: > incoming files takes a lot of time. However, since I started helping
: > out Joost, checks have become a little more stringent ;-)
: I'm amazed at how many such infringements there turn out to be in M.Mori.
Has anybody looked at the textures in ICARUS? Some of them are modified
Doom textures... but for God's sake! This is no crime!
--
*******************************************************
* Grzegorz Werner (http://alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl/~slon) *
* Author of Doom2 levels: dieyoung.wad, mtfactor.wad *
*******************************************************
Ty Halderman
sl...@alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl (Tomasz Slonski) wrote:
>Has anybody looked at the textures in ICARUS? Some of them are modified
>Doom textures... but for God's sake! This is no crime!
Well, I have to respond to that one. We very specifically made every
new texture from scratch in Icarus. After having modified ones in
Evilution and having dealt with id Software directly on that product,
we decided we would never do that again, as is id's wish.
We have over 200 new textures in ICARUS, and none are modified id
textures. There is one switch texture where (standard industry
technique) we point to patches that are id patches and tell it to
create a texture (silver switch on SILVER1 background), but only one
of those, and no modified graphics. That exception does not make the
ICARUS.WAD contain any id textures, modified or not.
=- Ty Halderman <thl...@neosoft.com> -=
=- TeamTNT, project Icarus now available, authors of -=
=- Evilution, soon to be released in id's Final DOOM -=
=- Home page <http://www.neosoft.com/~teamtnt> -=
Adam Williamson
In article <4nv5mi$i...@uuneo.neosoft.com>, Ty Halderman
<thl...@neosoft.com> writes
>Well, I have to respond to that one. We very specifically made every
>new texture from scratch in Icarus. After having modified ones in
>Evilution and having dealt with id Software directly on that product,
>we decided we would never do that again, as is id's wish.
>
>We have over 200 new textures in ICARUS, and none are modified id
>textures. There is one switch texture where (standard industry
>technique) we point to patches that are id patches and tell it to
>create a texture (silver switch on SILVER1 background), but only one
>of those, and no modified graphics. That exception does not make the
>ICARUS.WAD contain any id textures, modified or not.
>
would be using them anyway, so if one doesn't quite work properly and
you need to change the colour/add some bloodstain etc, why should Id
mind?
Tom Gibson
Tomasz Slonski wrote:
> Has anybody looked at the textures in ICARUS? Some of them are modified
> Doom textures... but for God's sake! This is no crime!
Actually it is. It's called copyright infringement.
Funny how your perspective on such things changes when it is your own
stuff being stollen. Till then you just don't agree.
Drake O'Brien
thl...@neosoft.com (Ty Halderman) wrote:
>sl...@alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl (Tomasz Slonski) wrote:
>>Has anybody looked at the textures in ICARUS? Some of them are modified
>>Doom textures... but for God's sake! This is no crime!
>Well, I have to respond to that one. We very specifically made every
>new texture from scratch in Icarus. After having modified ones in
>Evilution and having dealt with id Software directly on that product,
>we decided we would never do that again, as is id's wish.
>We have over 200 new textures in ICARUS, and none are modified id
>textures. There is one switch texture where (standard industry
>technique) we point to patches that are id patches and tell it to
>create a texture (silver switch on SILVER1 background), but only one
>of those, and no modified graphics. That exception does not make the
>ICARUS.WAD contain any id textures, modified or not.
>=- Ty Halderman <thl...@neosoft.com> -=
>=- TeamTNT, project Icarus now available, authors of -=
>=- Evilution, soon to be released in id's Final DOOM -=
>=- Home page <http://www.neosoft.com/~teamtnt> -=
I've made a lot of new textures and flats from scratch, which at first
sight might appear to be ripped from doom. Only when you look at the
patches in blowup, in a good graphics editor, you can see that they
are very different. And if you apply the two textures, Id's and my
own, close together you can see that in fact there's quite a different
effect, quite a different 'texture'. Problem is, with a 256 color
doom palette a person is driven to produce certain effects whether he
likes it or not - a person is forced to use colors in the low end of
the spectrum, etc.
Ron
Would someone explain something to me here? This may be a stupid question,
butevery single wad I've ever played has used the textures from the game...
does that make every single wad a copyright infringement? I guess I just
don't understand the hassle here.
Ron
Frans P. de Vries
The difference is between including (redistributing) id's stuff, and just
referencing original textures by name, which is what most PWADs do.
ja...@threeindians.com
Ron <ron...@apci.net> wrote:
>Would someone explain something to me here? This may be a stupid question,
>butevery single wad I've ever played has used the textures from the game...
>does that make every single wad a copyright infringement? I guess I just
>don't understand the hassle here.
>
>Ron
The way DOOM et al work is that "patch wads" add to or replace elements used in
the game. If the images are in the game wad file, the patch wad creator can
simply call for them and they will be displayed as they are in the original
game levels. This is perfectly legal. The graphics are coming from the
original, licensed product and being used by you, the owner of that license
(presumably). ;-)
What is being discussed here is the copying of those elements from the original
game wad into a custom wad (for whatever reason) and then distributed. (for
example, making a one patch texture that exactly replicates an existing
multipatch texture in the game, or copying elements available only in one game
to another game, or distributing a complete dehacked game exe.)
Using a program like Wintex or NWT to create customized patches based on the
original textures in your properly licensed original wad file at install time
is quite legal, as long as only the instructions for deriving these new
graphics and not the graphics themselves are distributed.
So long as the graphics and sound in the *distributed* custom wad are the
creation of the wad designer, or used with the permission of their creator,
they are legal. When any elements are distributed which belong to someone else
and permission to use them in this fashion has not been granted, *that* is
copyright infringement. Id does *not* give this permission to anyone (well,
maybe they gave it to the TNT guys, but you'd have to ask them about that).
Got it?
Jack
Tomasz Slonski
Tom Gibson (mas...@nwlink.com) wrote:
: Tomasz Slonski wrote:
: > Has anybody looked at the textures in ICARUS? Some of them are modified
: > Doom textures... but for God's sake! This is no crime!
: Actually it is. It's called copyright infringement.
: Funny how your perspective on such things changes when it is your own
: stuff being stollen. Till then you just don't agree.
OK, I'll make myself clear. Suppose that I want to create a switch
on a 2-sided wall, and so I compose a one-patch texture which looks
exactly as a multi-patch switch in Doom, and I send it to ftp.cdrom.com.
Now tell me, who's gonna lose a damn cent because of it? Well, if in
the .txt file accompanying my level I wrote "Hey people, just look at
this beautiful switch I've created!", this will suck. But if that's
not the case, what's all the hassle for?!
Of course, you have to know where to stop. Sending out a complete, dehacked
.exe would certainly be a copyright infringment - in anybody's opinion!
SubZero
The TNT Team has sent a letter here, which says that there are no modified
textures from Doom in the Icarus project. Well, maybe I will sound petty,
but please tell me: are the textures IIVPORT1...3 original work? Note
that I don't mind, that's just a question.
--
Ty Halderman
Ron <ron...@apci.net> wrote:
>Would someone explain something to me here? This may be a stupid question,
>butevery single wad I've ever played has used the textures from the game...
>does that make every single wad a copyright infringement?
No, the DOOM/DOOM2 textures, in their unmodified state, are pointed to
by the PWAD, but the actual graphics aren't in it and aren't
distributed. Basically you have four ways you can specify the
textures in a wad (DOOM2 used here as the example):
1. The original definition of the original textures, using original
patches (patches are the only thing that are really a
graphic--textures entries define how they're "assembled" into the
texture you see)
2. A new definition of a new texture, or a modified definition of a
standard DOOM2 texture, but still using only original DOOM2 patches.
This means you're still pointing only to the textures in DOOM2.WAD.
For example, putting the diagonal see-through texture over a wood door
to give it new character. An easy way to make a difference without
bloating your PWAD with new graphics.
3. A texture made up optionally of DOOM2 patches, with at least one
new patch that isn't in DOOM2.WAD. This is the first example in which
there is an actual graphic in the PWAD; up to now we've only dealt
with pointers to the patches in DOOM2.WAD.
4. A texture made up of no DOOM2 patches, but only built from new
patches in the PWAD.
Under categories 3 and 4, your so-called "new" patch could have been
created by taking a DOOM2 patch into a graphic editor, adding some
writing or recoloring it, or perhaps more substantial changes, and
that's where the gray line is about copyright. In Evilution, we did
this while not fully understanding the implications, but since id
Software bought the wad, the point became moot. In Icarus, we have
one switch that had a category 2 change, and all others were category
4, thereby avoiding the issue.
Due to complications of what is hard-coded in the EXE file, switches
and animated textures must still use the same names as the original
ones--you can't just add your own new textures of those types. So the
approach we picked was to use animations that are listed in the EXE
but only used in DOOM (not in DOOM2), and to add switch textures to
the "right" or x-offset of existing switches. This way there is an
unmodified version of every DOOM2 texture, but we can still make
switches. The best example in Icarus would be in the exit pods, where
you have the full-wall computer unit with a throw-handle switch to
exit.
Hope this helped. I may have missed a couple of complex combinations
above, but basically you can see that there are a lot of ways to add
new textures without modifying the id artwork, which (I think) is the
only gray area.
Ty Halderman
sl...@alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl (SubZero) wrote:
>The TNT Team has sent a letter here, which says that there are no modified
>textures from Doom in the Icarus project. Well, maybe I will sound petty,
>but please tell me: are the textures IIVPORT1...3 original work? Note
>that I don't mind, that's just a question.
Rats--must not have deleted those before it went out. They were never
used and were placeholders for later designs. My apologies for the
oversight.
So... you're right that those existed in the wad; we didn't use them
in the levels, but from the technical point of view they were
distributed and I will admit the error.
Tom Gibson
Ty Halderman wrote:
> Under categories 3 and 4, your so-called "new" patch could have been
> created by taking a DOOM2 patch into a graphic editor, adding some
> writing or recoloring it, or perhaps more substantial changes, and
> that's where the gray line is about copyright.
There's actually nothing grey about it, only optional. What you're
talking about is infringement by creation of derivative works. It's
the same as if someone decided to write "Aliens 7," with some of the
"Aliens" characters, music, etc. You can't do it without permission.
> In Evilution, we did
> this while not fully understanding the implications, but since id
> Software bought the wad, the point became moot.
So you have defacto permission. They COULD have raked you good.
> In Icarus, we have
> one switch that had a category 2 change, and all others were category
> 4, thereby avoiding the issue.
I have used all the stated methods, without copyright infringement
because any patches I wanted changed I created new ones from scratch.
> Due to complications of what is hard-coded in the EXE file, switches
> and animated textures must still use the same names as the original
> ones--you can't just add your own new textures of those types. So the
> approach we picked was to use animations that are listed in the EXE
> but only used in DOOM (not in DOOM2), and to add switch textures to
> the "right" or x-offset of existing switches.
I like that. I've done it for other kinds of textures but not switches.
I will now, though. {You can't copyright an idea!} >:-)
SubZero
: In Icarus, we have one switch that had a category 2 change, and all
Nobody's answered the question which I posted here before, but please, Ty,
admit that patches "IIVPORT" that you have put into Icarus WAD are modified
STARTAN textures from Doom. That's just one texture, I know, but have you
crossed the gray line :) ?
Ty Halderman
Tom Gibson <mas...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>Ty Halderman wrote:
>> that's where the gray line is about copyright.
>There's actually nothing grey about it, only optional. What you're
>talking about is infringement by creation of derivative works. It's
>the same as if someone decided to write "Aliens 7," with some of the
>"Aliens" characters, music, etc. You can't do it without permission.
Right. I should have said "the area where people become confused."
>> In Evilution, we did
>> this while not fully understanding the implications, but since id
>> Software bought the wad, the point became moot.
>So you have defacto permission. They COULD have raked you good.
Yup. They could. Enforcement has never been fully tested with id to
my knowledge, but they're within their rights to rake.
>>add switch textures to
>> the "right" or x-offset of existing switches.
>I like that. I've done it for other kinds of textures but not switches.
>I will now, though. {You can't copyright an idea!} >:-)
Fine with me--I'm perfectly willing to further the science (some have
corrected that to "art") of editing. We all learn from each other. I
seem to remember a level that someone built using a hex editor once...
=- Ty Halderman <thl...@neosoft.com> == TeamTNT: Icarus now available -=
=- TeamTNT members created all the levels, new graphics and new music in -=
=- [[Final DOOM]] available from id Software on Final Friday (June 21st) -=
-= The TeamTNT home page is at <http://www.neosoft.com/~teamtnt> -=
Ty Halderman
sl...@alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl (SubZero) wrote:
>Nobody's answered the question which I posted here before, but please, Ty,
>admit that patches "IIVPORT" that you have put into Icarus WAD are modified
>STARTAN textures from Doom. That's just one texture, I know, but have you
>crossed the gray line :) ?
FYI, I reposted my reply of 29 May
(Message-ID: <4ohmm1$f...@uuneo.neosoft.com>)
to SubZero by email.
Adam Williamson
In article <4on5tv$s...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl>, SubZero
<sl...@alpha.ok.ae.wroc.pl> writes
>: In Icarus, we have one switch that had a category 2 change, and all
>: others were category 4, thereby avoiding the issue.
>
>admit that patches "IIVPORT" that you have put into Icarus WAD are modified
>STARTAN textures from Doom. That's just one texture, I know, but have you
>crossed the gray line :) ?
>
Anthony The W
:: From: Ron To: All Subj: Re: Copyright Crap ::
Ro> Would someone explain something to me here? This may be a stupid
Ro> question, butevery single wad I've ever played has used the textures
Ro> from the game... does that make every single wad a copyright
Ro> infringement? I guess I just don't understand the hassle here.
You've misunderstood. Every WAD _references_ the original textures, but the
WAD does not actually CONTAIN them, the DOOM.WAD (or DOOM2.WAD) does. That
isn't copyright infringement. Actually ripping the textures out of DOOM.WAD
and placing them in yours *IS* copyright infringement.
---
# TLX v4.00 # "Whoa!! Santa is doing the forbidden dance!"
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
--
|Fidonet: Anthony The W 1:262/20
|Internet: Anthon...@stargate.kendra.com
|
| Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
| When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
| Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6023 Everett WA
Tom Gibson
Ty Halderman wrote:
>
> Tom Gibson <mas...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
[ getting confusing, eh? ]
> >There's actually nothing grey about it, only optional.
> Right. I should have said "the area where people become confused."
Eggsactly. Sort of the Muddy Area.
> >> In Evilution, we did
> >So you have defacto permission. They COULD have raked you good.
> Yup. They could. Enforcement has never been fully tested with id to
> my knowledge, but they're within their rights to rake.
They've been smart enough to realize that the continued popularity of
their entire line and especially Doom2 is due to being a bit lax.
I only wish other businessfolk in the USA were as smart.
> >I will now, though. {You can't copyright an idea!} >:-)
> Fine with me--I'm perfectly willing to further the science (some have
> corrected that to "art") of editing.
Call it a craft. It takes a special understanding, but it can be learned.
> We all learn from each other. I
> seem to remember a level that someone built using a hex editor once...
I'm afraid I've tried quite a few that seemed like that. :-) I too have
been willing to tell all my secrets, usually before they were even published.
It's amazing what you can accomplish when you don't insist on getting credit.