AXF/WXF and algabraic notation
Bill Brydon
xiangqi in recent months, or from participating on the Internet.
I just came on and noticed that there has been some discussion of
notation and of portable files. The questions are understandable -
it's a confusing area.
I don't have time to double check everything. Don't shoot me if I make
a mistake.
Key point: the AXF/WXF notation is simply the ancient method of
Chinese notation using the Roman alphabet to indicate the pieces.
"WXF" notation is simply "AXF" notation as accepted by the WXF some
years back (see http://wxf.hypermart.net/eg/wxf_notation.html, as
given by Jouni).
The big issue is translations for the piece names. They are as
follows:
King - K
ChaRiot - R
Horse - H
Pawn - P
Elephant - E
Cannon - C
I just doube-checked these against recent literature put out by the
AXF, WXF and CXA and they are all consistent - the standard
translations are holding. I think you'll find that most English
language literature from Asia uses these translations.
Before this was done, ICCS had a different set of translations which
was almost the same as those used in the Xiangqi Review. Those were
good - I could have used either system for the rest of my life.
Another key point: the Chinese words for the pieces can be translated
in numerous ways, and most Chinese players don't read English language
literature, and so don't know what words to use. Just two days ago,
someone asked me whether they should say "car", "chariot" or "rook" -
this happens all the time. We have to be prepared to be flexible, and
recognize a variety of names for the pieces.
The algabraic system was developed in Europe, and is touted by the
strong players in Germany. This system is good too, and easier for
some people -all power to them.
I would only point out - and I think this is very important - if you
learn Chinese notation (WXF/AXF/ICCS/XR) you will find it easier to
read Chinese or Vietnamese literature. And if you get serious, you
will have to do this.
Peter Sung uses WXF/AXF notation in his CCHVIEW software, and is
willing to adapt his programs to exchange files with other programs -
it's just a matter of time for him - he puts a lot of work into all of
this. So far he has databased 10,000 games. So Peter has a big lead in
this area, not because he wants to "win", but just because he's been
plugging away for years.
Pham Hong Nguyen is working on a wider range of software than Peter.
The two sometimes exchange info.
I believe that in a few years, the rapid advance of Windows technology
will allow for the easy exhange of differing game record files, and XQ
players will be able to create large databases using different kinds
of software.
Bill Brydon
David H Li
added.
One, another piece, A, for Adviser, should be added to his list of six,
making a total of seven.
> King - K
> ChaRiot - R
> Horse - H
> Pawn - P
> Elephant - E
> Cannon - C
Two, the word "ancient" gives reader the impression that it is obsolete;
it is not. It is still in use - in World Xiangqi Championships (Macau
2001) and such, and in Xiangqi publications.
This set of designations was promulgated in Singapore during the 4th World
Xiangqi Championship, 1995. I happened to be there. My series of books
on Xiangqi, beginning with First Syllabus on Xiangqi, published the
following year (1996), uses WXF notations. In it, at pp 12-13, I also
mention the advantages of following centuries-old Chinese notational
practices, among which is, as Brydon states, "to prepare one to read
classical Chinese writings on Xiangqi."
David Li
Bill Brydon
literature use the Chinese system, and of course much comes from
Vietnam as well. And I forgot to put in the advisor - I always forget
something.
David H Li <dav...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<3DADDE98...@erols.com>...
Claus
good to hear from you! :-)
You are mentioning in your posting that German players
are using the algebraic system. That's partly true, e.g.
our old Xiangqi magazine (which doesn't exist any more)
used this notation. It's similiar to the system used by
most players of western chess in Germany, that's probably
the main reason why most people have been starting with
this system in Xiangqi as well. In my opinion, the main
advantage of an algebraic system is that notation errors
can be corrected more easily because the filed a piece is
moved to is always given whereas the original chinese
notations indicate the movement of a piece. If you have
a piece on the wrong position of your board most moves
shown by Chinese notation will still be possible but they
will again lead to the wrong position. With algebraic notation,
in many cases a position will be corrected easily.
However, both systems are valuable and it's not too difficult
to learn both. Most of the German players know both types
of notation, mainly because it enables us to follow the
international literature. For our own games, many , but not all
of us still prefer the algebraic notation. As you will have
noticed we switched to the WXF notation on our webpage.
Claus
bib...@hotmail.com (Bill Brydon) wrote in message news:<50b0cce4.02101...@posting.google.com>...
peter sung
Can any one send me a document about algebraic notation ? I can program it as one of the output option in the
CChview 4.3 , which I will release it in next few week.
Peter Sung
Claus
> Hi All.
> Can any one send me a document about algebraic notation ? I can program it as one of the output option in the
> CChview 4.3 , which I will release it in next few week.
>
> Peter Sung
Hi Peter,
Let me try to explain it, although it's tough in a foreign language?!
I hope I won't confuse you too much! ;-)
Firstly, there is a simple grid as you may know it from mathematics,
each field of the board is identified by a combination of a letter
from a to i giving the column of the field and a number between 1 and
10 giving the line.
Column a is the left column from the view of the red side (and the
right column if you look at the board from Black's side).
The base line of Red is line 1, the base line of Black is line 10
(some people use a 0 instead what may be confusing). For a programmer
it would be more convenient to start the lines with 0 at the base of
Red, but that's unusual in Germany for historical reasons.
There is a long and a short algebraic notation. I assume the long
annotation is easier to be realized in a software solution.
For the long notation each move is described by a token for the piece
(depending on the language),
in English I would prefer
K = king
R = rook
H = horse
C = cannon
P = pawn (the token for the pawn is often ommited)
E = elephant
A = advisor
After the token the starting field of the piece is given, next we have
an - if it's not an capturing move or an x if a piece is captured.
Finally the field where the piece will be at the end of the move has
to be given.
This notation is probably best understood if you look at an example.
Let's look at the first 15 moves of the game
Wu Yucheng - Zheng Yiting from the Canadian National Championships
1998 given in the thread of Pham Hong Nguyen. In the "standard"
annotation these moves are given like this:
1. C2.5 H8+7
2. H2+3 R9.8
3. R1.2 C8+4
4. H8+7 C2.5
5. R9.8 H2+3
6. C8.9 P3+1
7. R8+6 R1.2
8. R8.7 R2+2
9. R7-1 C5-1
10. C9+4 E7+5
11. R7-1 H3+4
12. C9.3 H4+5
13. H7+5 C8.5
14. A4+5 R8+9
15. H3-2 P5+1
In the long alebraic notation we would write:
1. Ch3-e3 Hh10-g8
2. Hh1-g3 Ri10-h10
3. Ri1-h1 Ch8-h4
4. Hb1-c3 Cb8-e8
5. Ra1-b1 Hb10-c8
6. Cb3-a3 Pc7-c6
7. Rb1-b7 Ra10-b10
8. Rb7-c7 Rb10-b8
9. Rc7xc6 Ce8-e9
10. Ca3xa7 Eg10-e8
11. Rc6-c5 Hc8-d6
12. Ca7xg7 Hd6xe4
13. Hc3xe4 Ch4xe4+
14. Af1-e2 Rh10xh1
15. Hg3xh1 Pe7-e6
As I said before most players would omit the P for pawns but that's
not so convenient for a computer program. As in other notations you
can also add additional informations like a + for a check as in move
13 of Black or question marks or ..., but that's not essential and
doesn't really belong to the annotation.
For the short notation the starting field of a move is normally
omitted, it is only mentioned in a short form if the move otherwise
would be ambigous. Here is the short notation for the same game:
1. Che3 Hg8
2. Hg3 Rh10
3. Rh1 Ch4
4. Hc3 Ce8
5. Rb1 Hc8
6. Ca3 Pc6
7. Rb7 Rb10
8. Rc7 Rb8
9. Rxc6 Ce9 (some people would prefer 9. Rc6: Ce9, where : indicates
that a piece was captured))
10. Cxa7 Ege8 (or 10. Ca7: Ege8)
11. Rc5 Hd6
12. Cxg7 Hxe4 (or 12. Cg7: He4: )
13. Hcxe4 Cxe4 (or 13. Hce4: Ce4: )
14. Afe2 Rxh1 (or 14. Afe2 Rh1: )
15. Hxh1 Pe5 (or 15. Hh1: Pe5)
For Red's moves 1, 13 and 14 and for Black's move 10 you can see what
happens in the case of otherwise ambigous moves.
Don't hesitate to ask if you have more questions.
Claus
Bill Brydon
As far as I can tell, Claus is using algabraic notation in exactly the
same way that Jouni does (lines 1-10, WXF English piece names). Will
this make it satisfactory to those German and Finnish players who
prefer algabraic? If so, it should be good enough for players
everywhere.
B
claus.te...@web.de (Claus) wrote in message news:<199b7434.0210...@posting.google.com>...
peter sung
What is the shortl alebraic notation for the following moves
PEG two双马 Horses (VS) full guard
START{
SETUP{KE0;HG4;HG2;kE9;aE8;aD9;eC5;eC9,Red}
DIAG{
.----------[k][a][e]----.
| | | | \|/ | | | |
|--+--+--+-[a]-+--+--+--|
| | | | /|\ | | | |
|--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--|
| | | | | | | | |
|--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--|
| | | | | | | | |
|----------------[e]----|
| |
|----(H)----------------|
| | | | | | | | |
|--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--|
| | | | | | | | |
|--+-(H)-+--+--+--+--+--|
| | | | \|/ | | | |
|--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--|
| | | | /|\ | | | |
.----------(K)----------.
Red do next move
}
1. H-+5 e7-5 }END
Peter Sung
Claus
it is
1. H3e4 E6e8
The short notation is ambigous if two pieces of
the same type can reach the same field. If these
both pieces start from the same column, the move
notation has to show the line the piece starts
from.
Here, we have to horses on g3 and g5 which both
can move to e4, therefore He4 wouldn't be enough
to identify the move, obviously Hge4 wouldn't
help either, thus we write H3e4 or H5e4 if the other
horse movfes to e4.
Claus
peter sung <ps...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DB8A0F1...@rogers.com>...
Pham Hong Nguyen
publishes only traditional standard (and name of pieces in English is
also good). Therefore everyone can do everything he likes to
standardize others ;)
So far, I think only algebraic notation of ICCS is popular enough as a
standard: The ranks of board count from 0 to 9, no name of piece, no
capture or check charactors (x and +) and no remark (! ? !!...). For
example: H2-B2 (Peter, I think you implemented already the ICCS
notation on your program, right? - that may be enough). The new ones
of Claus (at least new to me) seems to be the Western chess notations
applying to Xianqi. The long one with omiting the piece charactors
differs from ICCS by the rank (1-10) and additional charactors (x, +).
Now, I see there are too many notaions for Xiangqi. Almost all them
have been being used somewhere (still alive):
1) Tradition:
WXF standard: K-King A-Advisor E-Elephant R-Rook C-Cannon H-Horse
P-Pawn + go ahead . move side - move back)
Modifies: G-King, G-Advisor, C-Rook, K-Horse, S-Pawn, - move side,
. move back ...
2) Algebraic
ICCS: H2-B2 A5-A9
Modify: H2B2 A5A9
Full long: CH2-B2 or CH2B2 A5A9
Rank 10: A6-A10 A6A10
x for capture, + for check: H2xB2 A5A9+
Short: Cb2, R4R9
Short with x and +: Cxb2, R4R9+
...
The good point of them is that the text notations which are portable
and readable for both human and computer are always much better than
any binary forms. Perhaps, they are really nightmare for programmers
to write tools to automatically read and understand them all :(
+PHN
Claus
it's not surprising that the long notation is much
easier to program. It is no doubt good enough to
have that. I'm actually convinced that all players
who are really interested in Xiangqi don't need that
at all. However, as Pham pointed out, the algebraic
notation is stemming from the western chess notation,
therefore western chess players who just want a short
look on Xiangqi might be happy with a familiar notation.
By the way, I haven't found the example for which you
ask for feedback?!
Claus
peter sung <ps...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DB94169...@rogers.com>...
peter sung
"
FORMAT WXF
GAME HU RongHua(W)XU TianHong,65
TIME ;
RESULT 1-0
RED HU RongHua ; IGM ; China-Shanghai ; 胡荣华 , 璊篴地
BLACK XU TianHong ; IGM ; China-Jiangsu ; 徐天红 , 畗ぱ
DATE 1998/3/29
PLACE Kunming
EVENT China Team Championship ; 1998
ROUND
START{
1. E3+5 h2+3 2. P3+1 p3+1 3. H2+3 h3+4
4. H8+9 c8.5 5. A4+5 h8+7 6. H3+2 c5+4
7. C8.6 c2+3 8. H2+3 r9.8 9. R9.8 r1.2
10. P3+1 e3+5 11. R1.3 r8+6 12. C2.4 r8.6
13. P9+1 c2+2 14. R3+2 r6.9 15. R3-2 r9.6
16. R3+2 r6.8 17. R3-2 r8.6 18. R3+2 c5-1
19. C6+2 c2-4 20. C6-2 c2+4 21. C6+2 c2-4
22. C6-2 c2.7 23. R8+9 c7+4 24. R8.6 k5+1
25. R6-4 r6.7 26. H9+8 c7-3 27. H8+9 k5-1
28. C6.8 r7+3 29. C4-2 c7.9 30. H9+7 a6+5
31. C8+7 k5.6 32. H7+6 e5-3 33. H6-4 }END
"
"
FORMAT ALGABRAIC
GAME HU RongHua(W)XU TianHong,65
TIME ;
RESULT 1-0
RED HU RongHua ; IGM ; China-Shanghai ; 胡荣华 , 璊篴地
BLACK XU TianHong ; IGM ; China-Jiangsu ; 徐天红 , 畗ぱ
DATE 1998/3/29
PLACE Kunming
EVENT China Team Championship ; 1998
ROUND
START{
1. Eg1-e3!? Hb10-c8! 2. Pg4-g5? Pc7-c6?? 3. Hh1-g3 Hc8-d6
4. Hb1-a3 Ch8-e8 5. Af1-e2 Hh10-g8 6. Hg3-h5 Ce8xe4
7. Cb3-d3 Cb8-b5 8. Hh5xg7 Ri10-h10 9. Ra1-b1 Ra10-b10
10. Pg5-g6 Ec10-e8 11. Ri1-g1 Rh10-h4 12. Ch3-f3 Rh4-f4
13. Pa4-a5 Cb5-b3 14. Rg1-g3 Rf4xi4 15. Rg3-g1 Ri4-f4
16. Rg1-g3 Rf4-h4 17. Rg3-g1 Rh4-f4 18. Rg1-g3 Ce4-e5
19. Cd3-d5 Cb3-b7 20. Cd5-d3 Cb7-b3 21. Cd3-d5 Cb3-b7
22. Cd5-d3 Cb7xg7 23. Rb1xb10 Cg7xg3 24. Rb10xd10 Ke10-e9
25. Rd10xd6 Rf4-g4 26. Ha3-b5 Cg3xg6 27. Hb5xa7 Ke9-e10
28. Cd3-b3 Rg4-g1 29. Cf3-f1 Cg6-i6 30. Ha7-c8 Af10-e9
31. Cb3-b10 Ke10-f10 32. Hc8-d10 Ee8-c10 33. Hd10-f9 }END
"
Peter Sung
peter sung
1. Eg1-e3 Hb10-c8 2. Pg4-g5 Pc7-c6 3. Hh1-g3 Hc8-d6
4. Hb1-a3 Ch8-e8 5. Af1-e2 Hh10-g8 6. Hg3-h5 Ce8xe4
7. Cb3-d3 Cb8-b5 8. Hh5xg7 Ri10-h10 9. Ra1-b1 Ra10-b10
10. Pg5-g6 Ec10-e8 11. Ri1-g1 Rh10-h4 12. Ch3-f3 Rh4-f4
13. Pa4-a5 Cb5-b3 14. Rg1-g3 Rf4xi4 15. Rg3-g1 Ri4-f4
16. Rg1-g3 Rf4-h4 17. Rg3-g1 Rh4-f4 18. Rg1-g3 Ce4-e5
19. Cd3-d5 Cb3-b7 20. Cd5-d3 Cb7-b3 21. Cd3-d5 Cb3-b7
22. Cd5-d3 Cb7xg7 23. Rb1xb10 Cg7xg3 24. Rb10xd10 Ke10-e9
25. Rd10xd6 Rf4-g4 26. Ha3-b5 Cg3xg6 27. Hb5xa7 Ke9-e10
28. Cd3-b3 Rg4-g1 29. Cf3-f1 Cg6-i6 30. Ha7-c8 Af10-e9
31. Cb3-b10 Ke10-f10 32. Hc8-d10 Ee8-c10 33. Hd10-f9 }END
"
Peter Sung
Claus
I think your notations is correct, I assume
the exclamation marks and question marks for
the first moves are not part of the notation?! ;)
I didn't replay the game, I only tried to read
it from the screen. I'm nevertheless quite sure
that everything is correct.
Just another thought:
I don't know how your program works. If possible,
you might consider to add an initialization file
(read always when the program is started)
where the tokens (letters) for all the pieces
are defined. If somebody doesn't like the
English ones we have chosen he could easily edit
the initialization file and e.g. use the first
letter of the Finnish or German name of the piece.
That's not a necessity at all and probably only
worth the work if you are already using such INI-files.
Claus
peter sung <ps...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3DBB2CD8...@rogers.com>...
Bill Brydon
> So far, I think only algebraic notation of ICCS is popular enough as a
> standard: .
> notation on your program, right? - that may be enough). The new ones
> of Claus (at least new to me) seems to be the Western chess notations
> applying to Xianqi.
Hi Pham,
Actually the European clubs have done a great deal of work with
algabraic notation going back to before ICCS became popular.
The Toronto players meet the European players every two years at the
World Cup. Peter has been talking about supporting their algabraic
notation for years.
For the Europeans, it is a difficult question whether to use algabraic
or Chinese notation. Claus's posts show an up-to-date knowledge of
where this stands. German team leader Michael Naegler expressed strong
support for algabraic notation when I spoke to him in 1999. Jouni
Tolonen strongly supported algabraic notation when we worked for the
MSO in 2000 and 2001.
The great majority of western chess players who join xiangqi clubs do
so in Europe. My understanding is that many of them want algabraic
notation, and I know that Peter is happy to help them.
The 0-9 versus 1-10 question is well known to the European players,
and I leave it to them to explain it. But I would point out that, if
the Europeans use WXF piece names for algabraic notation, than the
systems have come closer together.
Bill Brydon
peter sung
Claus wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> I think your notations is correct, I assume
> the exclamation marks and question marks for
> the first moves are not part of the notation?! ;)
>
> I didn't replay the game, I only tried to read
> it from the screen. I'm nevertheless quite sure
> that everything is correct.
>
> Just another thought:
> I don't know how your program works. If possible,
> you might consider to add an initialization file
> (read always when the program is started)
> where the tokens (letters) for all the pieces
> are defined. If somebody doesn't like the
> English ones we have chosen he could easily edit
> the initialization file and e.g. use the first
> letter of the Finnish or German name of the piece.
> That's not a necessity at all and probably only
> worth the work if you are already using such INI-files.
>
That is not hard to do, but on the other hand I do not like too many standard out there
as well. When WXF already define to letters of the pieces. I think we should follow.
CChview only output three type of Format
1. WXF (text)
2. Chinese (text)
3. Long Algabraic (text)
It can read in many Type of Format.
1.WXF (text)
2. Chinese (text)
3. Long Algabraic (text)
4. ICCS (text)
5. moveSky server (hex format)
6. CCBridge (text & hex format)
7. XQStudio (text )
Peter Sung
LanKeShenJi
This is just my own opinion. To me, shoud have only 2 or 3 standard
notations, no need and no good reason to make a lot of standards
notations like that.
Why do you always want things so complicated?
lksj
Pham Hong Nguyen
I think you miss something here: so far, we have only one standard:
WXF one. Others are simply not standard even many people have been
supporting them. We are discussing to have a new one: Algebraic
notation.
+PHN