GAY Chess Players?
Ron Buckmire
existence of other Gay (or lesbian or bisexual) chess players...
--
RON BUCKMIRE, Ph.D. http://www.math.oxy.edu/~ron
Mathematics Department, Occidental College, 1600 Campus Road, L.A., CA 90041
buck...@oxy.edu||+1 213 259 2536 (vox)||+1 213 341 4966 (fax)
Check out the Queer Resources Directory at http://www.qrd.org/QRD/
John C Mumaw
-john c. mumaw
(southpaw)
--
John C. Mumaw jmu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (614)292-6314
Ohio State University Libraries Columbus, Ohio
Reid Powell
: Is anyone keeping a list of lefthanded chess masters?
What a sinister suggestion. <haw>
Lisa
Orion Auld
Punning in this newsgroup is so gauche.
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***** Orion Auld ***** *------------------------------------------------*
"We are only fabulous | I have no idea what you are trying to |
beasts, after all." | say; and yet, I disagree with you. |
-- John Ashbery *------------------------------------------------*
Philip L. Peterson
: Having noted the discussion on Black chess players, I'm also curious about the
: existence of other Gay (or lesbian or bisexual) chess players...
Ahhh, who cares, a chess player is a chess player. Unless its a pretty
woman, in which case you have something fun to do when it is not your move.
Mike Cummings
In one sentence, you dismiss sexual orientation and then drag it back in.
Interesting.
--
Mike Cummings cumm...@u.washington.edu
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
-Jack Handey
John C Mumaw
Chris P. Palivas Jr.
They've played with each other a lot.
Greg Kennedy
: Obchess: If you'd like to learn about the closed Sicilian, Karpov played it
: a lot. Can anyone recommend an annotated collection of his games?
Karpov: My Best Games
Greg Kennedy
Todd K. Pedlar
In article <3mtin3$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jmu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John C Mumaw) writes:
|> Is anyone keeping a list of lefthanded chess masters?
What about green-eyed, left-handed, lesbian chess masters of iranian descent?
John C Mumaw
Ohio!! I've decided that these lists aren't funny anymore - I *like* them!
-john c. mumaw
Lukas Wagner
Philip L. Peterson <p...@chinook.halcyon.com> wrote:
>Ron Buckmire (r...@abacus.math.oxy.edu) wrote:
>: Having noted the discussion on Black chess players, I'm also curious about the
>: existence of other Gay (or lesbian or bisexual) chess players...
>
>
>Ahhh, who cares, a chess player is a chess player. Unless its a pretty
>woman, in which case you have something fun to do when it is not your move.
And although "A chess player is a chess player" there is much more
interest in a 7-year old at USCF 2100, or a native-born US player
at 2600, than in a middle-aged Russian player of either strength.
While I'm not particularly interested in lists of black or gay players
myself, (though I've known plenty of strong black, and presumably
strong gay players,
and it seems that there is a fair amount of newspaper coverage of chess
clubs in mostly black schools-- NYTimes this Sunday, eg) it seems
surprising that anyone would question the existence of such lists.
How are they different from lists sorted by nation of citizenship--
of birth even? Given the lack of, um, smart mouth following the appearance
of such apparently innocuous lists, and the objections to lists based
on some other sorting category, it seems that there are enough people
who do not quite believe your first sentence to make keeping the lists
worthwhile.
Obchess: If you'd like to learn about the closed Sicilian, Karpov played it
a lot. Can anyone recommend an annotated collection of his games?
-LW
jrh
As long as we're making a list based on bedroom behavior, why not
Grandmaster's who prefer it on the bottom (m/f that is). Never have
understood why there isn't a movement afoot to garner special
rights for those of who like it that way. ;)
Joshua Thaler
: Having noted the discussion on Black chess players, I'm also curious about the
: existence of other Gay (or lesbian or bisexual) chess players...
I eagerly await Israel Silverman's response to this post.
Frederic Prost
>
> In article <3mtin3$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
> |> Is anyone keeping a list of lefthanded chess masters?
>
>
I am a green-eyed chess player but NOTHING more :).
----
frederic PROST
Chris P. Palivas Jr.
Bruce R Baker
: -john c. mumaw
: (southpaw)
: --
: John C. Mumaw jmu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (614)292-6314
: Ohio State University Libraries Columbus, Ohio
How about obese chess players? (I'm no master!)
- bruce r. baker
(5'11" 275 lbs.)
--
Have a good day and God bless
Bruce Baker b...@tenet.edu
VanUpp
there are no male gay chess players. This is only a slight exaggeration.
Vincent Livermore, who is protrayed by Lawrence Fishbern in the movie
"Searching for Bobby Fischer", was long reputed to be gay, but there was
never any proof of this, although he did eventually die of AIDS. There is
a top German grandmaster who is well known to nbe gay. However, aside
from these and a handfiul of outher cases, there are virtually no male
gay strong chess players. There must be a psychological reason for this.
What is it?
There are, however, many female lesbian chess players. About 50% when I
was up on this. Believe me, I have first hand information about this, but
will not go into details. However, the Chinese and Georgian women (who now
occupy the top places on the rating lists) are not gay.
Sam Sloan
Justina Jill Koshinsky
On 21 Apr 1995, Sam Sloan wrote:
>
> There are, however, many female lesbian chess players. About 50% when I
> was up on this. Believe me, I have first hand information about this, but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> will not go into details.
Hahaha! ROTFL!
Whotta guy!
Robert Sasata
Eric Schiller
Come on Sam, you know better than this! I have no intention of broadcasting
individual players' sexual preference to the net, but there have been gay
participants at the top levels of chess..
It is true that as far as I know there are more lesbian than gay players,
and that probably in each case the percentage is lower than that of the
general population. And it is also true that there may be more pedophiles
rated higher than 2000 than there are gay males who stick to adults, but
that is easily explained by the access that chessplayers have to young
children. I know of no truly strong players who are child-predators,
however. What conclusions can be drawn from all this I do no know, save
that chess, like life, accomodates all sorts of people.
International level chessplayers seem to have the same appetites as
professional in other sports, as anyone who has hung around top level
events knows.
>THe subject of Gay chess players is actually quite interesting because
there
>are no male gay chess players.
Eric Schiller
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously at the chessboard, awaiting user
input."
http://www.hooked.net/users/chesswks/Schiller.html
Philip L. Peterson
: There are, however, many female lesbian chess players. About 50% when I
: was up on this. Believe me, I have first hand information about this, but
: will not go into details. However, the Chinese and Georgian women (who now
: occupy the top places on the rating lists) are not gay.
Maybe his first hand information is they have turned him down! But no,
then it would be 100%!
Rob Ryan
>THe subject of Gay chess players is actually quite interesting because
>there are no male gay chess players. ...
This posting is really quite amusing. What is the basis of this
posting short of anecdotal, and largely subjective, observations? Do
you have any comparable figures on the percentage of gay chess players
haven't come out of the closet yet?
I really hope this was a joke.
VanUpp
far too few) examples of overt heterosexuality among female chess
players. One female chess expert has had every so-inclined male chess
master in the United States that I can think of, plus a few experts and
even the occasional "A" player. Her identity is so well known that it is
unnecessary for me to mention her name. (She will probably send me a nasty
e-mail complaining that I have greatly exaggerated her exploits, anyway.)
Philip Humpherys
> One female chess expert has had every so-inclined male chess
>master in the United States that I can think of, plus a few
experts and
>even the occasional "A" player. Her identity is so well known
that it is
>unnecessary for me to mention her name.
--
Singin' in the sunshine and laughin' in the rain,
Phil Humpherys
hump...@bert.cs.byu.edu
WWW: <A HREF="http://bert.cs.byu.edu/~humphery/humphery.html">
Eric Schiller
active heterosexual female players might have been true a decade or two
ago, I assure you this is not the case. On the contrary, especially in
Britain, women are well-integrated into the social scene in chess.
Scandinavia too. Probably much of the rest of Europe, too. Even in the US,
many of the best women player have married are in long-term relationships
with other chessplayers, e.g., the Roots, Finegolds, Gulkos.
Come on Sam, just because they may choose not to join you for amorous
adventures, that doesn't mean they are hermits or asexual!
The net is not IMHO an appropriate place to discuss the sexual activities
of individual players. For that you gotta go to an international tournament
and hang out in the bar :->
Eric Schiller
Unfortunately the list is too long! And I qualify :-<
>How about obese chess players? (I'm no master!)
>
> - bruce r. baker
> (5'11" 275 lbs.)
Paul Hsieh
: Having noted the discussion on Black chess players, I'm also curious about the
: existence of other Gay (or lesbian or bisexual) chess players...
Alan Turing was Gay and programmed chess. He also played, though he was
mediocre.
Paul Hsieh
JEROME BIBULD
beneath contempt. For different reasons, you are in a class with the
two Liarries. (Or, perhaps, the same reasons?)
Jerome Bibuld
---
þ 1st 1.11 #5071 þ Please keep it simple for this telecommunications dumbunny.
Max Burkett
haven't
been following this thread but I'll bet Sam as an early leader in the
SEXUAL
FREEDOM LEAGUE drooled when it was initiated. MaxB
Rev. J B Bell
: In rec.games.chess van...@aol.com (VanUpp) said:
: >THe subject of Gay chess players is actually quite interesting because
: there
: >are no male gay chess players.
[I am unsure of the attribution here; the quoted ">" text was originally
at the bottom of Mr. Schiller's article. I believe this is correct,
though, since the below appears to be a response, and makes much more
sense this way.]
:
: Come on Sam, you know better than this! I have no intention of broadcasting
: individual players' sexual preference to the net, but there have been gay
: participants at the top levels of chess..
Let us rephrase the question, then. Are there any *out* gay, lesbian, or
bisexual chess players out there? I'm unrated, and I'm bisexual. So I
guess that makes at least one.
: It is true that as far as I know there are more lesbian than gay players,
: and that probably in each case the percentage is lower than that of the
: general population. And it is also true that there may be more pedophiles
: rated higher than 2000 than there are gay males who stick to adults, but
: that is easily explained by the access that chessplayers have to young
: children. I know of no truly strong players who are child-predators,
: however. What conclusions can be drawn from all this I do no know, save
: that chess, like life, accomodates all sorts of people.
It leads me to the conclusion that you are supporting the idea that
homosexuality (or I suppose bisexuality) and pedophilia are necessarily
linked. This idea has been totally abandoned by the psychological
profession, and indeed, anyone who has done some thinking about it. I
don't get that impression from you. The subtext of your message seems to
be also that "truly strong players" are immune from being
pedophiles--why? Would a pedophile who reached 2200+ suddenly be cured?
Or does pedophilia somehow disease the brain, impairing chess skills?
I think the assumptions you show here are baseless, and, further,
motivated by homophobia. I invite your response to the contrary in this
forum.
:
: International level chessplayers seem to have the same appetites as
: professional in other sports, as anyone who has hung around top level
: events knows.
And, unfortunately, as in other sports, it appears that the social
awareness of the chess world is lagging badly behind. Small wonder,
then, that some people assume there are *no* gay, lesbian, or bi
chessplayers--probably they are afraid to be out, in such a tacitly
disapproving atmosphere.
: --
: Eric Schiller
: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously at the chessboard, awaiting user
: input."
: http://www.hooked.net/users/chesswks/Schiller.html
Note: I have crossposted this article to soc.motss. I have quoted Mr.
Schiller's entire article. Please trim newsgroups appropriately when
following up.
--
Rev. J B Bell | Southwest Cyberport | Opinions expressed
cip...@swcp.com | Local Access to the | Are not necessarily
http://www.swcp.com/~cipher | Global Internet | Those of my employer.
--> Program Your Head, or Someone Else Will. <--
Joseph Albert
>I think the assumptions you show here are baseless, and, further,
>motivated by homophobia. I invite your response to the contrary in this
>forum.
well, i invite you not to discuss issues of homophobia on rec.games.chess.
With no implied lack of concern for the serious problem of homophobia,
rec.games.chess is a forum for discussing chess. while the topic of
gay chess players might fit in to r.g.c, discussions of homophobia are
well outside the charter of the group. If soc.motss is an appropriate
forum for this discussion, fine, and private email is fine, but rec.games.chess
is not.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Joseph Albert
alb...@cs.wisc.edu
Tim Mirabile
> I am certain that I should not say this, but there are also (regretably
> far too few) examples of overt heterosexuality among female chess
> players. One female chess expert has had every so-inclined male chess
> master in the United States that I can think of, plus a few experts and
> even the occasional "A" player. Her identity is so well known that it is
> unnecessary for me to mention her name. (She will probably send me a nasty
> e-mail complaining that I have greatly exaggerated her exploits, anyway.)
Hear that guys?
Get it up!
What? I meant your rating.
What did you think I meant?
Christopher Dorr
about gay chess players has evoked. I'm interested to hear from any gay
chessplayers, as it seems that homophobia and gay-discriminatory humor
are much more tolerable to most chess players than racial or ethnic
discrimination or humor.
At my chess club (a 30 member urban chess club), racial or ethnic jokes
are met with stony silence or direct criticism, but gay-negative humor is
tolerated.
Do you believe it is true that most chess players are more tolerant of
discrimination (and harrassment such as gay jokes) than they are of
racial/ethnic discrimination? It will be interesting to hear the comments
on this issue.
Chris
Eric Schiller
No, no, NO!. I was trying to contrast two non-intersecting sets, though
clearly I didn't articulate it properly. My point is that chess seems to
have attracted more pedophiles than gays (if your semantics has those as
non-overlapping sets, fine, but for some people pedophilis represent a set
that intersects with both gays and straights, so they are not mutually
exclusive, even though there is no inferential relationship.) Sorry for the
confusion I caused.
To my personal knowledge, most gay chessplayers are not open about their
preference. I don't know why, but it may be historical baggage from a time
where being open might have cost invitations or brought about political
problems, or just a strong feeling that this is a personal matter.
>It leads me to the conclusion that you are supporting the idea that
>homosexuality (or I suppose bisexuality) and pedophilia are necessarily
linked.
> This idea has been totally abandoned by the psychological profession, and
>indeed, anyone who has done some thinking about it. I don't get that
>impression from you. The subtext of your message seems to be also that
"truly
>strong players" are immune from being pedophiles--why? Would a pedophile
who
>reached 2200+ suddenly be cured?
>Or does pedophilia somehow disease the brain, impairing chess skills?
Rev. J B Bell
: In rec.games.chess cip...@swcp.com (Rev. J B Bell) said:
:
: No, no, NO!. I was trying to contrast two non-intersecting sets, though
: clearly I didn't articulate it properly. My point is that chess seems to
: have attracted more pedophiles than gays (if your semantics has those as
: non-overlapping sets, fine, but for some people pedophilis represent a set
: that intersects with both gays and straights, so they are not mutually
: exclusive, even though there is no inferential relationship.) Sorry for the
: confusion I caused.
Ah. Your apology is cheefully accepted, and I agree that no particular
group membership implies that one couldn't also be a pedophile.
: To my personal knowledge, most gay chessplayers are not open about their
: preference. I don't know why, but it may be historical baggage from a time
: where being open might have cost invitations or brought about political
: problems, or just a strong feeling that this is a personal matter.
This is why I think this thread is relevant to rec.games.chess, some
protests to the contrary. Homophobia *in the chessplaying community*
hurts its gay members, and therefore, it hurts chess. A player who is
spending time hiding a part of his or her life, particularly if he or she
is at a high level and therefore under scrutiny by the press, is not
spending time being a good chessplayer.
Supporters of chess like to talk about how the board and pieces know no
color, creed, religion, sexuality, or whatever. Alas, the world of
professional play is run by humans, who are all too fallible. It should
surprise no one that there are bigotries in chess, as in any sport, and
as in society in general.
I think your assessment of why there are no known out gay chessplayers is
substantially correct. It's hard to know why they're not out, of course,
since they're not talking! We'll only know when a few *do* come out and
tell their stories. It's to be hoped that most of their fears are
unfounded. (Unfortunately, I'm being U.S.-centric here. Many Eastern
European countries continue to have harsh criminal or "psychological
treatment" penalties for homosexual behavior or orientation.)
I think this is forming up to be an interesting thread and invite further
comment.
--JB