Black grandmasters? (Was: The powerless can't be "racist")
John Brock
>In article <ISBELL.93...@panther.ai.mit.edu>,
>Charles L Isbell <isb...@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>>se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>>|That's the problem, and the only way to solve it is to _prove_ to them
>>|that they're wrong. AA won't do it: it's like the example I posted a
>>|few weeks ago of proving that blacks can be good chessplayers. Giving
>>|chess trophies to blacks won't do it, and will only demean the value
>>|of those tropies actually won by blacks.
>>
>>|Teaching blacks to play
>>|chess so that they legitimately win a number of tournaments will
>>|provide unignorable proof.
>>
>>I disagree. Furthermore, I would suggest that history indicates this.
>
>I don't know about your history, but if anybody here wants to claim
>that blacks can't play chess, I know a couple of black chess hustlers
>who would love to meet them (say, for $20 a game?). They can spend as
>much as they want being convinced.
>
>Seth
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
grandmasters, and what their names are? I played in a few chess
tournaments when I was younger, and I saw some black players with
fairly high (2000+) ratings, but I've never heard of any black
grandmasters, and I'd like to know if any blacks have broken into the
top levels of the game.
--
John Brock
jbr...@panix.com
Jeffrey C. Ely
>
>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
>grandmasters, and what their names are? I played in a few chess
>tournaments when I was younger, and I saw some black players with
>fairly high (2000+) ratings, but I've never heard of any black
>grandmasters, and I'd like to know if any blacks have broken into the
>top levels of the game.
>--
>John Brock
>jbr...@panix.com
There is a group of chess players in the LA area who believe and
enthusiastically assert that Paul Morphy was the first black grandmaster.
I suppose that the critical question for their assertion is whether Morphy was
black, because I don't believe there was a grandmaster title during Morphy's
time.
Jeff
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Jeff Ely* "He said the Sun's not yellow...
Department of Economics, UC Berkeley It's Chicken!"
je...@econ.berkeley.edu
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*No opinions, unemployed
John Brock
>In article <2905i4$q...@panix.com>, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
>>grandmasters, and what their names are? I played in a few chess
>>tournaments when I was younger, and I saw some black players with
>>fairly high (2000+) ratings, but I've never heard of any black
>>grandmasters, and I'd like to know if any blacks have broken into the
>>top levels of the game.
>>--
>>John Brock
>>jbr...@panix.com
>
>
>There is a group of chess players in the LA area who believe and
>enthusiastically assert that Paul Morphy was the first black grandmaster.
>
>I suppose that the critical question for their assertion is whether Morphy was
>black, because I don't believe there was a grandmaster title during Morphy's
>time.
>
>Jeff
I'm not a believer in the "one drop" theory of race. If he wasn't
black enough for his contemporaries to be aware of it, then he wasn't
black.
--
John Brock
jbr...@panix.com
J R Partington
the other half. Like most chess players in fact.
JRP
--
| Dr Jonathan R. Partington, Tel: UK: (0532) 335123. Int: +44 532 335123. |
| School of Mathematics, Fax: UK: (0532) 429925. Int: +44 532 429925. |
| University of Leeds, Email: pmt...@leeds.ac.uk (or @uk.ac.leeds) |
| Leeds LS2 9JT, U.K. |
Mike Thomas
>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
>grandmasters, and what their names are? I played in a few chess
>tournaments when I was younger, and I saw some black players with
>fairly high (2000+) ratings, but I've never heard of any black
>grandmasters, and I'd like to know if any blacks have broken into the
>top levels of the game.
>--
>John Brock
>jbr...@panix.com
Boy, am I glad I'm not in your shoes! This is not a politically
correct question, you are in violation of university statutes 101.1
and 101.2 which bar any speech or thought demeaning in any possible
interpretation to any minority group. If you are a student you
are subject to expulsion and if faculty will soon be placed on
unpaid leave of absence.
You must understand, if we as a society learn to 'not think' and
'not speak' about such issues we shall achieve a type of nirvana.
And as we all learn not to think, speak or read we shall achieve
true equality and social justice for all.
Go in peace brother, Mr. Smart TD.
--
--Education is the process of casting false pearls before real swine.
---Irshin Edman
--Mike Thomas tho...@agcs.com
Tim Thompson
Since I am familiar with this group, and their claim, I thought I would
comment. The claim is based on the supposition that Paul Morphy's mother,
Thelcide Le Carpentier was a creole woman, and therefore black. We know
that his father Alonso(?) Morphy was of Irish-Spanish descent. If his
mother was black, so the claim goes, then according to Hebrew tradition,
so is Paul.
Whether or not Morphy was black seems a matter of interpretation to me,
and I really don't care one way or another. See Lawson's massive biography
of Morphy for all the details you can stand.
I don't know whether or not there are any modern black GMs, depending
on your definition of "black". However, there was a write up in a very recent
(last month?) Chess Life on the new champion of the Marshall Chess Club,
who is black, and near an IM norm, I believe.
---
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David R. Hartley
>In article <2905i4$q...@panix.com>, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
>>grandmasters, and what their names are?
Maurice Ashley comes to mind. He is quite strong. As is Emory Tate.
While I know this is a sensitive subject, I will just offer an
experience of mine that helped dispel any false myths about playing
ability. I live in Washington, DC, where you can find in Dupont
Circle park at almost any hour of the day a number of strong
players. Blitz is king there, and I would say at least half of the
strong blitz players are African American.(I am a European American
myself). I am about 1900 USCF and regularly get my but kicked at
the circle. Tate showed up one late night, and I was the only one
there, so I got a real treat of playing 3 blitz games with a GM.
He kicked my but of course, but I stole one from him when he got
carless in last game. Tate is a master of tactics. He is an
interesting person to talk to. Anyway, I can imagine the same
type of conversation above occurring in Russia: why arent they
many good American chess players? I think if a culture finds good
players at an early age, and give them fantastic training, like
in former Soviet Union, then you will naturally have many greeat
players. Gender, race, whatever doesnt matter. Anyway, thats my
2 cents worth...
" Chess is a typical inexact problem." - Botvinik
|------------------------------------------------|
| I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my |
| grandfather did... |
| ...not screaming in terror like his passengers.|
|------------------------------------------------|
| e-mail har...@nova.umd.edu | david r hartley |
|------------------------------------------------|
| 202-872-9373 | po box 14277 wash dc 20044 |
|------------------------------------------------|
Christopher Young
|> In article <290bqt$c...@agate.berkeley.edu> je...@econ.Berkeley.EDU (Jeffrey C. Ely) writes:
|> >In article <2905i4$q...@panix.com>, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
|> >>
|> >>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
|> >>grandmasters, and what their names are? I played in a few chess
|> >>tournaments when I was younger, and I saw some black players with
|> >>fairly high (2000+) ratings, but I've never heard of any black
|> >>grandmasters, and I'd like to know if any blacks have broken into the
|> >>top levels of the game.
|> >>--
|> >>John Brock
|> >>jbr...@panix.com
|> >
|> >
|> >There is a group of chess players in the LA area who believe and
|> >enthusiastically assert that Paul Morphy was the first black grandmaster.
|> >
|> >I suppose that the critical question for their assertion is whether Morphy was
|> >black, because I don't believe there was a grandmaster title during Morphy's
|> >time.
|> >
|> >Jeff
|>
|> I'm not a believer in the "one drop" theory of race. If he wasn't
|> black enough for his contemporaries to be aware of it, then he wasn't
I take offense at your statement. It shows your ignorance about African
Americans It is possible for someone to be black/AFA and for his
contemporaries not to be aware of it. Your contemporaries may not be
aware of it becuase
1) You hide your background to get ahead.
(The old folks used to call it "passin")
2) People refuse to acknowledge your race becuase it would
require them to confront their stereotypes.
("Your different....You're not like other black people"
-- A. Bigot)
There has always been people light enough to pass[*] who consider
themselves black, so your argument does not hold water. For example,
my Native American heritage (1/8 cherokee and Narragansett) throws
enough doubt in peoples mind that they have to ask about my heritage.
I frequently get asked "Where are you from?" and "What are you?".
Which shows that my contemporaries "ARE NOT AWARE OF IT" (my
blackness). I even had one white guy say to me, one day when I was
wearing a sweatshirt that said "Respect, protect, and develop a
strong black man", "Your the first person I've seen wearing that
shirt who was not an African American".
AFAs come I a wide range of colors and shades, and your comment shows
ignorance to the wide and beautiful shades of color, from plum blue
to chocolate to butter, in African America. I'll dig up Langston Hughes
poem ?Harlem sweetie? and post it to the net.
[*] or are considered "not black" becuase they are too valuable to the
person making the judgement to lose.
--
===============================================================================
Christopher Young | Not to know is bad.
University of Cincinnati | Not to want to know is worse.
Electrical & Computer Engineering | Not to hope, unthinkable.
Cincinnati, OH. 45221-0030 | Not to care, unforgiveable.
(513)556-0904 |
cyo...@thor.ece.uc.edu | Ibo people of Nigeria
===============================================================================
CAPSA
an IM in June of this year. He is Afro-American.
Perhaps not coincidentally, Slim Bouaziz, of Tunisia, became the first African
GM in the same month.
Fraternally,
Jerome Bibuld
CAPSA
Emory Tate (who has been several times U. S. Armed Forces champion) is an FM,
not a GM. He has earned an IM norm, which has lapsed.
Fraternally,
Jerome Bibuld
Jon Allen Boone
cyo...@snert.ece.uc.edu (Christopher Young) writes:
> [flammage deleted to save space]
You know Chris, you're different... your not like other black
people.... you're far too PC and you take offense too quickly.
You remind me of Ted Kennedy [god-bless his irish soul!]
But, back to the main thread, aren't there some non-US grandmasters
who are black? Maybe from Brazil? Jamaica? Haiti? somewhere in
Africa? [Can anyone else think of other countries where there are
large numbers of middle-class and high-social status blacks?]
Chess, historically, has been the province of middle-class folks and
up. It's hard to play chess when you're busy working to help support
the family, as most poor people in the world have to do. I'd bet that
as the median family income for Black US citizens rises, more and more
strong Black players wil be "seen" at USCF events and a number of
black grandmasters will be evident. Give them a chance! My god, it's
been less than half a century since US Blacks were allowed to
socialize with US Whites, etc. It'll likely take another generation
or two before the USCF has 4 or 5 Black grandmasters. [That would be
the generation which my grandchildren will be a part of!]
Jon Boone
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/* Jon `Iain` Boone Network Systems Administrator bo...@psc.edu */
/* ia...@cmu.edu Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center (412) 268-6959 */
/* I don't speak for anyone other than myself, unless otherwise stated!!!!!! */
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Art Pomeroy
players, I wonder if anyone has noted strong Polynesian players. As far
as I am aware, the strongest at present is Mark Noble (New Zealand
Maori) who is an FM.
My comment would be that there are fewer strong Polynesian players
(than say, ethnic Chinese) because of the size of their population and
cultural factors which mean that chess has only recently become popular
with any substantial group in that community. I guess that this would
generally apply to Afro-Americans too.
John Richards
>In <290bqt$c...@agate.berkeley.edu> je...@econ.Berkeley.EDU (Jeffrey C. Ely) writes:
>
>>In article <2905i4$q...@panix.com>, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there are any black
>>>grandmasters, and what their names are?
>
>Maurice Ashley comes to mind. He is quite strong. As is Emory Tate.
>While I know this is a sensitive subject, I will just offer an
>experience of mine that helped dispel any false myths about playing
>ability. I live in Washington, DC, where you can find in Dupont
>Circle park at almost any hour of the day a number of strong
>players. Blitz is king there, and I would say at least half of the
>strong blitz players are African American.(I am a European American
Difficult to think of strong black British players (I hope someone can
come up with a few), a few of Asian origin spring to mind (e.g. Dharshan
Kumaran, runnerup in this year's British championship).
Black players in my local league in Bristol used to be even rarer than
women players. But I think this was because Blacks felt unwelcome in
'White' clubs. A 'Black' chess club, Harambee, was formed in St Paul's,
Bristol about four years ago and it's thriving. It now has two teams
(admittedly in Divisions 5 and 6). Harambee founder Devon Thomas told me
he formed the club because he and other Blacks played chess
in their homes, but they would not go to an established club. His idea worked.
The Bristol League now runs a stall at the St Paul's Carnival each July, where
we set out some boards and play anyone who turns up in the street. It's
a big success.
John Richards
Bruce_L...@transarc.com
>interesting person to talk to.
An understatement!
I saw Tate a few years ago when he came to a tournament in Pittsburgh. He was
showing off a recent game in which he had upset Boris Kogan. He was a master
storyteller--it was spellbinding. I've never seen anything like it.
It was the kind of thing Dennis Baker could aspire to, if he could clean up
his act ;-)
CAPSA
not played (been rated by the USCF) since the ratings list of November 1989.[B[B[B[B[BHe has been an FM since January 1987, with a highest FIDE rating of 2360 in
January 1990, the last time he was rated by FIDE.
Fraternally,
Jerome Bibuld