Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Who are the cutest chess babes around?

51 views
Skip to first unread message

etherial warrier

unread,
Apr 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/12/96
to
I saw a recent mention of Martha Fiero beating IM Zlotnikov a couple
years ago at the World Open. Big surprize....he was obviously not
concentrating on the game as he stared into those gorgeous eyes and
melted when she smiled at him. She is one of the greatest chess babes
on the planet.

My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order

* Martha Fiero
* Sophia Polgar
* Anna Kahn


Benjamin J. Tilly

unread,
Apr 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/15/96
to
In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:

Why is their appearance more important to you than their ability at
chess? IMO any chess player, or other professional, who cannot get
beyond the appearance of somebody of the opposite sex deserves to lose
chess games, or lose business, because of their inability to
concentrate.

Ben Tilly

Martin Borriss

unread,
Apr 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/16/96
to

In article <4ktnf7$8...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Benjamin...@dartmouth.edu (Benjamin J. Tilly) writes:
> In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
> ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:
> >
> > My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order
> >
> > * Martha Fiero
> > * Sophia Polgar
> > * Anna Kahn
>
> Why is their appearance more important to you than their ability at
> chess?

To provoke you a bit:

Maybe because their chess abilities aren't not that spectacular (if you
compare this to male Wunderkinder, or to top GMs (including J.Polgar)),
but the fact that they look cute (have to rely on previous poster, since I
don't know the 'babes' in person) is something rare in the chess scene?

> IMO any chess player, or other professional, who cannot get
> beyond the appearance of somebody of the opposite sex deserves to lose
> chess games, or lose business, because of their inability to
> concentrate.

Without any doubt there are professionals (or semi-professionals, or just
regular GMs ;) ) who claim to lose to every woman.


--
Martin....@inf.tu-dresden.de

Tim Farris Kadom

unread,
Apr 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/16/96
to
In article <4ktnf7$8...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,

Benjamin J. Tilly <Benjamin...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
>ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:
>
>> I saw a recent mention of Martha Fiero beating IM Zlotnikov a couple
>> years ago at the World Open. Big surprize....he was obviously not
>> concentrating on the game as he stared into those gorgeous eyes and
>> melted when she smiled at him. She is one of the greatest chess babes
>> on the planet.
>>
>> My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order
>>
>> * Martha Fiero
>> * Sophia Polgar
>> * Anna Kahn
>
>Why is their appearance more important to you than their ability at
>chess? IMO any chess player, or other professional, who cannot get

>beyond the appearance of somebody of the opposite sex deserves to lose
>chess games, or lose business, because of their inability to
>concentrate.
>
>Ben Tilly

Appearance is a valid distraction in chess. I know lots of players who like
to wear something quirky just in the hope of getting into their opponents head.
from Hats to neon ties, to bandaged hands ... anything at all to make the
opponent focus on something other than the game.

I think you are discounting psychology Ben. Some of the best intelligence agents
are female, others are elderly. Any red blooded male will loose their concentration
when an awesome girl winks at them from accross the table, or runs her fingers
through her hair. Such things will not affect a computer player, but a human
will certainly have to deal with them. Take a look at Kasparov when he is
playing a match. Have you ever seen him stare directly into the eyes of his opponent
during the game? Why do you think he does that? I am sure he is trying to get
a mental edge to unsettle whoever he is facing. The operator of Deep Blue felt
that stare enough to comment on it (though he jokingly admitted that it had no
effect on the computer's play).

If women have that edge over men, then it is an advantage that must be pressed. You
are of course correct when you state that someone deserves to loose if these things
distract them, but that is a very valid part of the game. People are distracted
by other things and end up blundering. You can look at a chess match by trying
to eliminate the opponent and only looking at the pieces, but this is difficult.

Tell me that you would play the same way against Kasparov for the world title as
you would against any other Grand Master. The game remains the same, the pieces
still move the same way, but there is an unsettled anxious wrenching in your gut
anyway, just because you know who the opponent is, and what the stakes are. That
will affect your mental process, and it IS a part of the match since both
players must deal with it.

-Tim

PS) I think a woman would be just as susceptible to the smile of some hunk sitting
accross the table. A mental game is played along with the physical game, and it
will ALWAYS have some affect on the outcome.

--
"sometimes you are the windshield...
sometimes you are the bug"
-Dire Straits


George Szaszvari

unread,
Apr 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/16/96
to
In article <4l0dgp$2...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, no...@wam.umd.edu (Tim Farris Kadom) says:
>
>Appearance is a valid distraction in chess. I know lots of players who like
>to wear something quirky just in the hope of getting into their opponents head.
>from Hats to neon ties, to bandaged hands ... anything at all to make the
>opponent focus on something other than the game.
[snip]

Good posting. Spassky was guilty of the above during his 1977 candidates
match with Korchnoi. He was losing badly then started to wear a ridiculous
hat and use other ploys, which nearly worked! However, how close does all
this come to cheating? McEnroe's tantrums on the tennis court were clearly
designed to break the concentration of his opponents. The national German
soccer team had a similar approach when losing a game (as Beckenbauer,
their player/captain/manager, confessed); something, anything, had to be
done to break the rhythm of the game when it's progressing in the opponent's
favour. Chessplayers are often much more blatant with all this kind of
gamesmanship. Interesting discussion.

Regards

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: g...@bbcnc.org.uk
ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Benjamin J. Tilly

unread,
Apr 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/16/96
to
In article <4l0dgp$2...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>

no...@wam.umd.edu (Tim Farris Kadom) writes:

> In article <4ktnf7$8...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
> Benjamin J. Tilly <Benjamin...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
> >ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:
> >
> >> I saw a recent mention of Martha Fiero beating IM Zlotnikov a couple
> >> years ago at the World Open. Big surprize....he was obviously not
> >> concentrating on the game as he stared into those gorgeous eyes and
> >> melted when she smiled at him. She is one of the greatest chess babes
> >> on the planet.
> >>
> >> My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order
> >>
> >> * Martha Fiero
> >> * Sophia Polgar
> >> * Anna Kahn
> >
> >Why is their appearance more important to you than their ability at
> >chess? IMO any chess player, or other professional, who cannot get
> >beyond the appearance of somebody of the opposite sex deserves to lose
> >chess games, or lose business, because of their inability to
> >concentrate.
> >
> >Ben Tilly
>

> Appearance is a valid distraction in chess. I know lots of players who like
> to wear something quirky just in the hope of getting into their opponents head.
> from Hats to neon ties, to bandaged hands ... anything at all to make the
> opponent focus on something other than the game.
>

But it is no more than a distraction. You still need to play well to
win against a good opponent.

> I think you are discounting psychology Ben. Some of the best intelligence agents
> are female, others are elderly. Any red blooded male will loose their concentration
> when an awesome girl winks at them from accross the table, or runs her fingers
> through her hair. Such things will not affect a computer player, but a human
> will certainly have to deal with them. Take a look at Kasparov when he is
> playing a match. Have you ever seen him stare directly into the eyes of his opponent
> during the game? Why do you think he does that? I am sure he is trying to get
> a mental edge to unsettle whoever he is facing. The operator of Deep Blue felt
> that stare enough to comment on it (though he jokingly admitted that it had no
> effect on the computer's play).
>

In the context of a competitive game this is a valid point. However
when the attitudes that the competitor is exploiting are often a
problem for women in other contexts. And as a result I think that the
attitudes need to be questioned from time to time.

Furthermore men are not ruled by their genitals as much as some men
claim that they are. It makes a convenient excuse but it does not even
take much effort to recognize women for their skills and not to just
think in terms of landing them in bed. (Anybody who is unable to make
this jump is bound to be unable to have a good relationship. If you
cannot 1) be emotionally faithful and 2) understand that there is
something more important than looks then that will be a constant
problem in a marriage.)

> If women have that edge over men, then it is an advantage that must be pressed. You
> are of course correct when you state that someone deserves to loose if these things
> distract them, but that is a very valid part of the game. People are distracted
> by other things and end up blundering. You can look at a chess match by trying
> to eliminate the opponent and only looking at the pieces, but this is difficult.
>

Let me ask you whether you would automatically assume that a woman beat
a GM in a game because he had an instant crush on her? What does it say
about someone that they would think that? Personally I think that it is
insulting to a woman who is obviously a capable chess player to say
that about her. This is exactly what the previous person did. And the
attitudes that led him to do that are the sort of attitudes that make
it hard for women to be recognized for their skills both in chess and
in the workplace...

> Tell me that you would play the same way against Kasparov for the world title as
> you would against any other Grand Master. The game remains the same, the pieces
> still move the same way, but there is an unsettled anxious wrenching in your gut
> anyway, just because you know who the opponent is, and what the stakes are. That
> will affect your mental process, and it IS a part of the match since both
> players must deal with it.
>

I would indeed play the same way. I would know at the start that their
skills are so much superior to mine that I have no chance...but I get
your point. (I should point out that chessplayers that I know
consistently estimate my probable USCF rating in the 1500-1700 range. I
would have an actual rating except that I have never been willing to
pay the money and hassle to enter a tournament. But on ICC my blitz
rating goes between 1450-1550, and at that level your USCF rating is
usually better than your ICC rating, so that range is probably right.)

> -Tim
>
> PS) I think a woman would be just as susceptible to the smile of some hunk sitting
> accross the table. A mental game is played along with the physical game, and it
> will ALWAYS have some affect on the outcome.

It may affect the outcome. But if the world were full of female
chessplayers then I still would not, as ew@shadows (etherial warrier)
did, assume that he beat a good female chessplayer primarily because he
is so attractive.

Ben Tilly

Paul Rubin

unread,
Apr 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/16/96
to
In article <4ktnf7$8...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Benjamin J. Tilly <Benjamin...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
>ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:
>
>> I saw a recent mention of Martha Fiero beating IM Zlotnikov a couple
>> years ago at the World Open. Big surprize....he was obviously not
>> concentrating on the game as he stared into those gorgeous eyes and
>> melted when she smiled at him. She is one of the greatest chess babes
>> on the planet.
>>
>> My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order
>>
>> * Martha Fiero
>> * Sophia Polgar
>> * Anna Kahn
>
>Why is their appearance more important to you than their ability at
>chess? IMO any chess player, or other professional, who cannot get
>beyond the appearance of somebody of the opposite sex deserves to lose
>chess games, or lose business, because of their inability to
>concentrate.

There is no question that Fischer, Kasparov and maybe Tal have all won
games because their physical presence (despite impeccably correct
behavior) affected the opponent in some way. Bisguier has remarked on
a few of his games with Fischer saying that even though he (Bisguier)
had good positions in some, Fischer's incredible determination
radiated across the board and made it seem inevitable that Fischer
would win regardless. Which of course became a self-fulfilling
prophesy. With Kasparov the effect is apparently similar, and Tal's
famous "stare" is the subject of many anecdotes.

Karpov also called Kasparov a "deep psychologist of the chessboard",
meaning he (Kasparov) was able to sense the opponent's mental state
and use it to decide when the right time to make risky or flamboyant
moves was, rather than just playing the position on the board.

Personally I think it's things like this that make playing chess
with living humans more interesting than playing with computers.
If Martha Fierro's presence has some affects the opponent somehow,
the effect may be perfectly real but it's part of the game just
as with Fischer and Kasparov. Even if the mechanism is a bit different :).

Timothy Hanke

unread,
Apr 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/17/96
to
Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.

If he thinks that a male chessplayer can ignore the appearance of an
attractive female opponent, he must be from another planet. Perhaps the
people of his planet reproduce by budding or some other asexual method.

This is not Ben Tilly's first venture into gender politics. Weeks ago
after I posted on a thread started by Matador, he flamed me for not
knowing that "Matador is a woman."

I have yet to receive independent confirmation from Matador or anyone
else that Matador is a woman. Nor did Ben Tilly ever explain why he
brought gender into that discussion.

Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.

Timothy Hanke

CAPSA

unread,
Apr 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/17/96
to
Dear phr,

I would agree with you fully about Tal's "impeccable" manner at the board,
somewhat less about Fischer's. However, Kasparov's manner over the
board is positively disrespectful to his opponents.

Fraternally,

Jerome Bibuld

Brian J. Ritzel

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
I apologize in advance to the readers of this group for the following. I
just couldn't sit by while one of the least pleasant on this group
attacks one of the most positive and active.

Timothy Hanke (ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a

Ah--"Politically correct"--the retort the intellectually challenged
always resort to when they don't have the verbal skills to express their
anger any other way. How sad.

: one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.

More nobel indeed than your one-man campaign to publically insult Ben
Tilly. (Can we assume that you are a supporter of sexism?)

: If he thinks that a male chessplayer can ignore the appearance of an

: attractive female opponent, he must be from another planet. Perhaps the
: people of his planet reproduce by budding or some other asexual method.

Red Herring.

: This is not Ben Tilly's first venture into gender politics. Weeks ago

: after I posted on a thread started by Matador, he flamed me for not
: knowing that "Matador is a woman."

Ah! Now we see the real reason for your post. Tilly hurt poor Hanke's
feelings, so now he's lashing out in childish anger. Boo-hoo. I feel
your pain.

: I have yet to receive independent confirmation from Matador or anyone

: else that Matador is a woman. Nor did Ben Tilly ever explain why he
: brought gender into that discussion.

Nor have you explained why you are telling us all of this, except as some
sort of infantile vendetta because you perceive that Tilly "dissed" you.

: Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
: woman.

Personally, having read Ben Tilly's

Which I presume coming from the likes of you is an insult.

: And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.

I find it quite humorous that Timothy Hanke, who, by my reckoning is the
most embittered poster to post regularly to the r.g.c.* hierarchy, is
accusing others of humorlessness.

You are obviously full of hate for some reason, but I don't really care. I
just ask that in the future, Hanke, you take your stupid flames to email.
Your noise to signal ratio has just about triggered my kill file.

-Bri

PS All follow-ups to email, please. Let's spare the rest of the group
any more inanity.


--
Brian Jay Ritzel
Urbana, IL USA
rit...@prairienet.org

Churak

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>,

Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
>one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.
[snip]

>Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
>woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.
>

So I guess I should refrain from posting "REQ: Nude JPEGs of Pia Cramling" for
another time? >:->

Lonnie Cook

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
no...@wam.umd.edu (Tim Farris Kadom) wrote:

>In article <4ktnf7$8...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
>Benjamin J. Tilly <Benjamin...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>In article <4kk8fn$9...@news.cais.com>
>>ew@shadows (etherial warrier) writes:
>>
>>> I saw a recent mention of Martha Fiero beating IM Zlotnikov a couple
>>> years ago at the World Open. Big surprize....he was obviously not
>>> concentrating on the game as he stared into those gorgeous eyes and
>>> melted when she smiled at him. She is one of the greatest chess babes
>>> on the planet.
>>>
>>> My personal list of chess babes.....in no particular order
>>>
>>> * Martha Fiero
>>> * Sophia Polgar
>>> * Anna Kahn
>>

To all,
Now the proverbial thought from the male species. What does Martha Fiero look like,picture etc. Secondly I think Judith Polgar looks better than her sister Sophia although
Sophia is attractive as well.


Respectfully Yours,
Lonnie J. Cook
"Destroyer"on ICC
<lonni...@riconnect.com>
Famous last words,"...just one more game!"

Tom Geller

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
In article <4l0dgp$2...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, no...@wam.umd.edu (Tim
Farris Kadom) wrote:

>Appearance is a valid distraction in chess. I know lots of players who like
>to wear something quirky just in the hope of getting into their
opponents head.
>from Hats to neon ties, to bandaged hands ... anything at all to make the
>opponent focus on something other than the game.

On this note: I saw Sharon Burtman wearing a hilarious hat during one of
her games at the U.S. Closed this past year. It was from "The Lion King,"
and it had the ridiculous snout of the warthog staring at her opponent
during the whole game. I couldn't take my eyes off it. :)

> Any red blooded male will loose their concentration
>when an awesome girl winks at them from accross the table, or runs her fingers
>through her hair.

It's about time that someone pointed out that this "any red blooded male"
stuff is a load of heterosexist crap. Need I remind you that there are
millions of gay and lesbian chess players in the world? And among them are
some of our top grandmasters. And then there are players who, while
heterosexual, are simply not affected by such stimuli. And all, I assure
you, have red blood. :)

--
Tom Geller, Dir. of Development | Visit NetEnglish.com at
The Academy of English | http://www.netenglish.com
San Francisco, CA 94103 | The best little English school
Tel: +1-415-546-6451 | in the San Francisco Bay area!

Benjamin J. Tilly

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>
Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> writes:

> Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
> one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.
>

Oh?

> If he thinks that a male chessplayer can ignore the appearance of an
> attractive female opponent, he must be from another planet. Perhaps the
> people of his planet reproduce by budding or some other asexual method.
>

Perhaps you need to put a little bit of effort into getting beyond
appearance. You may some day find yourself in front of a group of
people (in my case a classroom) having to do your job...

> This is not Ben Tilly's first venture into gender politics. Weeks ago
> after I posted on a thread started by Matador, he flamed me for not
> knowing that "Matador is a woman."
>

> I have yet to receive independent confirmation from Matador or anyone
> else that Matador is a woman. Nor did Ben Tilly ever explain why he
> brought gender into that discussion.
>

Actually I did explain why I brought it into that discussion. You were
referring to Matador as "he". I was pointing out that this is
incorrect. And as for my source, I recalled an earlier post where
Matador had mentioned a personal story of encountering sexism... Since
it is such a minor detail, it has not come up since.

> Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
> woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.

Obviously there is no way that I can prove my gender at Usenet. However
I assure you that Dartmouth uses a person's real name on their
accounts. Check which account this is posted from. Unless I was going
to a considerable amount of effort to forge all of my posts (which I do
not, in fact, happen to know how to do), Dartmouth believes that I am
called "Benjamin J Tilly". How many women do you know called
"Benjamin"?

If you *really* care, you can always make the roughly 2 hour drive to
Hanover NH and actually meet me...

Ben Tilly

PS My wife of over 6 years should be amused that you think I am a
woman...

PPS Unlike what you apparently just did, I try to avoid making
statements which I do not have evidence for.

Tim Farris Kadom

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>,
Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
>one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.
>
>If he thinks that a male chessplayer can ignore the appearance of an
>attractive female opponent, he must be from another planet. Perhaps the
>people of his planet reproduce by budding or some other asexual method.
>
>This is not Ben Tilly's first venture into gender politics. Weeks ago
>after I posted on a thread started by Matador, he flamed me for not
>knowing that "Matador is a woman."
>
>I have yet to receive independent confirmation from Matador or anyone
>else that Matador is a woman. Nor did Ben Tilly ever explain why he
>brought gender into that discussion.
>
>Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
>woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.
>
>Timothy Hanke

Tim,

I remember the matador incident, but I must admit I was not following the
entire thread. I would agree that matador is a masculine name, and your
assumption of gender was understandable. Actually I think you can use the
male gender in English evne if you are talking about either gender, but
thats a small point, and who really cares. If matador did not take offense,
then I don't see why Ben Tilly would (except perhaps to point out your
mistake to you).

I read Ben's reply to the post in question, (and his subsequent follow up to my own
response) not so much as PC, but as "give credit where credit is due" Fiero
won on her chessplaying merits, and not because her opponent fell in love
with her. While I think there is certainly validity in his point, I also
believes that Ben is not giving enough credit to the psychological aspects
of chess. A beautiful girl can distract you, or cause you to perhaps underestimate
her. Either case could make you blunder and loose the game. That is not to
say that Pamela Anderson could become World Champion on looks alone, But I bet if
she had a solid game she would be plenty distracting to buy herself some small
advantages...

I once underestimated a woman chessplayer (I know I am blatantly sexist but for
some strange reason I thought she would be easy, and I took the match very lightly)
, She beat me, and I figured it was because I was too busy flirting with her.
She was then, and is now a beautiful woman. She beat me again, and I have not
underestimated her since ! In both games I wasnt really concentrating on the game,
I kept looking up at her, and she kept smiling at me. When I play her now I
consciously refocus on the game whenever I find myself drifting off. Perhaps things
are a bit easier now that she is my fiance, but Ishe can still make me loose
my concentration in more blatant maneuvers...

In a way no different from Tal's stare, or some opponent with a neon Tie, or getting
up in the middle of a game to walk around the room... Chessplayers always try
to get a mental edge on their opponents. It is part of the Game. If fiero
winked at her opponent at the right time, and it caused a whole bunch of calculated
variations to fly right out of his mind, then she didn't do anything out of the
ordinary as far as a chess match is concerned.

-Tim

Mike Holcomb

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
bays...@intrepid.net (Churak) writes:

>In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>,
> Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
>>one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.

>[snip]


>>Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
>>woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.
>>

>So I guess I should refrain from posting "REQ: Nude JPEGs of Pia Cramling" for
>another time? >:->

More pawnography on the net. How disgusting. :)

--
Michael D. Holcomb | Disclaimer: These opinions are mine alone.
University of Colorado | Chess: Known as Cyborg on FICS. USCF 1721.
Nuclear Physics Lab | Radios: I fix antique radios for fun and profit.
hol...@spectr.colorado.edu | Politics: Aubrey & Maturin in '96

Lonnie Cook

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to

I Am Sumo

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
Martha Fierro is definitely one of the best looking chess players
around... :)


+----------------------------------------+---------------------+
| John Carlo Fernandez |2120 Chestertown Hall|
| Freshman, U. of Maryland @ College Park|College Park, MD |
| Mathematics/Physics Major |(301) 314-5710 |
| Member, U. of Maryland Chess Team | |
+------------------------+---------------+---------------------+
| IAm...@aol.com |"Remember, you're one in a million, |
| ia...@wam.umd.edu |which means there are a thousand |
| John_Fe...@nyo.com |people just like you in China!" |
+------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| New Web Page!! http://exp1.wam.umd.edu/~iassf/welcome.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+

Tim Farris Kadom

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
In article <english-1804...@english.vip.best.com>,
Tom Geller <eng...@best.com> wrote:
:In article <4l0dgp$2...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, no...@wam.umd.edu (Tim

:Farris Kadom) wrote:
:
:>Appearance is a valid distraction in chess. I know lots of players who like
:>to wear something quirky just in the hope of getting into their
:opponents head.
:>from Hats to neon ties, to bandaged hands ... anything at all to make the
:>opponent focus on something other than the game.
:
:On this note: I saw Sharon Burtman wearing a hilarious hat during one of
:her games at the U.S. Closed this past year. It was from "The Lion King,"
:and it had the ridiculous snout of the warthog staring at her opponent
:during the whole game. I couldn't take my eyes off it. :)
:
:> Any red blooded male will loose their concentration
:>when an awesome girl winks at them from accross the table, or runs her fingers
:>through her hair.
:
:It's about time that someone pointed out that this "any red blooded male"
:stuff is a load of heterosexist crap. Need I remind you that there are
:millions of gay and lesbian chess players in the world? And among them are
:some of our top grandmasters. And then there are players who, while
:heterosexual, are simply not affected by such stimuli. And all, I assure
:you, have red blood. :)
:

Well taken,

Apologies to all who were offended by the remark. I do not have the
gift of PC when my fingers dance along the keyboard. I think the point is still
valid for those males to whom such stimuli apply... I know the most distracting
thing that ever happened to me in a game was my opponents hands being wrapped
completely in bandages. He claimed that he had a severe case of poison Ivy,
and at times throughout the game he would wince when moving a piece. His bandages
were also a little loose so that they would drag dramatically when he drew back
his hands. Underneath there was a hint of brownish-red to suggest bleeding,
in various places. Now it is entirely possible that he actually did have some
type of problem, but he was not wearing the bandages the next day, and I noticed
nothing wrong with his hands.

Anyway, my eyes always followed his hands back from his move, and I know
I spent a good deal of time wondering just how bad the condition was. I
think that time would have been better spent thinking about the game (even
though I won in the end-game), because i missed alot of opportunities.

I like the Lion King hat, but quirky behaviors are pretty interesting as
well. Although I did not play against him, I saw one guy at a tournament who
was breathing through an air filter and wearing plastic gloves (I think a phobia
of touching bacteria/germs?)

Steve Mayer

unread,
Apr 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/18/96
to
Churak (bays...@intrepid.net) wrote:
: In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>,

: Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> wrote:
: >Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
: >one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.
: [snip]
: >Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
: >woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.
: >

: So I guess I should refrain from posting "REQ: Nude JPEGs of Pia Cramling"
: for another time? >:->

Yes. Roy DePew would just cancel them anyhow. ;-)

Dusen Van u

unread,
Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
to
I concur with Tilly. I, myself am no woman but I would have posted a
similar comment if tin had been down that day. Around here, babe is
generic for men and women. Think how silly it would have been talking
about Kasparov in terms of his looks. The guy plays great chess. If the
subject was how stupid male GM's are because they think with their
gonads than with their brains, then that is something entirely different.
Funny, how a lot of people throw that term around,"PC" and don't truly
understand what it means.

--
Eric Van Dusen
Religion and Culture, Wilfrid Laurier University
vanx...@mach1.wlu.ca

Churak

unread,
Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
to
In article <holcomb....@stripe.Colorado.EDU>,
hol...@stripe.Colorado.EDU (Mike Holcomb) wrote:

>bays...@intrepid.net (Churak) writes:
>
>>In article <4l3t8l$v...@netope.harvard.edu>,
>> Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>Apparently this politically correct Ben Tilly character is running a
>>>one-man campaign to stamp out sexism on r.g.c.m.
>>[snip]
>>>Personally, having read Ben Tilly's postings, I think Ben Tilly is a
>>>woman. And a particularly humorless, PC woman at that.
>>>
>
>>So I guess I should refrain from posting "REQ: Nude JPEGs of Pia Cramling"
for
>>another time? >:->
>
>More pawnography on the net. How disgusting. :)
>
And I used to edit a newsletter called "Pawnography (Analysis in a Brown Paper
Wrapper)". How ironic! 8-)

John Roset

unread,
Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
to
iam...@aol.com (I Am Sumo) wrote:

>Martha Fierro is definitely one of the best looking chess players
>around... :)

Maybe if you are talking about FEMALE players. All over I think I am
the most handsome chessplayer in the world.
No, I'm sure.

best wishes
John R

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Røset E-Post: John....@hint.no
HØGSKOLEN I NORD-TRØNDELAG Telefon: +47 74 21 23 53
Avdeling for helsefag, Namsos Telefax: +47 74 21 23 01
"Utan tvivel är man inte klok" (Tage Danielsson)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Adam Whiteson

unread,
Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
to
Not long ago, there was a thread on this group titled "Who is the
tallest GM?" This topic, which generated a surprising amount of
interest, was treated by everyone as an entertaining bit of silliness.
No one saw fit to deliver sanctimonious lectures about the impropriety
of such a question. The "Cutest chess babes" is just another light
hearted irrelevancy. Is not a license for the Church Lady to deliver
one of his sermons!

Adam Whiteson/ aka "HardPawn" on ICC & FICS

Tom Geller

unread,
Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
to

Maybe so, but at least tallness can be measured with a meter stick. I fear
the day that someone comes out with a "cute stick."

Tracy S. Miller

unread,
Apr 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/20/96
to eng...@best.com

The fact that beauty is impossible to quantify does not mean that people
will not have strong opinions about the matter. I for one happen to
believe (as do most of my friends) that Sophia Polgar does indeed belong
in the "babe" category. She is also quite strong at chess. Most of my
friends can usually also agree on which female chess players do not belong
in this category. So, despite quantitative proof, a consensus can usually
be obtained in the "babe" qualification.


Timothy Hanke

unread,
Apr 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/20/96
to
To the court of Net opinion:

"Benjamin J. Tilly" of Dartmouth has flamed me for not knowing that
frequent poster Matador "is a woman," and then tried to justify his
flame.

In fact, all of Tilly's rationalizations fall flat, because I was
recently informed in private e-mail that Matador is MALE. So much for
Tilly and all his PC arguments.

As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would
experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
unlike that of a men's prison.

Timothy Hanke


ethereal warrior

unread,
Apr 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/20/96
to
In the most April , 1996 issue of En Passant..the magazine of the
Chess Federation of Canada, there is an interviw with and picture
of Manon Leger. She is the highest rated woman in Canada. I have
never seen her in person, pictures being a poor second to the visual
experience, but she appears to meet the official qualifications of
"Chess Babe" Those qualifications are:

@ extremely attractive
AND, and this is an absolute
@ rated over 2000

EW


Churak

unread,
Apr 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/21/96
to
In article <4lb6q5$n...@netope.harvard.edu>,

So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the soap"?

And, for God's sake, don't say "prison" in this newsgroup; you'll get that
%^&$##@ near-infinite "ratings fraud" thread started up again!

James Garner

unread,
Apr 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/21/96
to
Timothy Hanke (ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu) wrote:

: As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would

: experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
: Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
: unlike that of a men's prison.

In a men's prison, don't the men become even more acutely aware
of any women they see?


James Garner

unread,
Apr 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/21/96
to
Churak (bays...@intrepid.net) wrote:

: >As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would
: >experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
: >Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
: >unlike that of a men's prison.

: So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the soap"?

When I see this thread, I am reminded of Leslie Nielson in one of
his movies, where some burly convict tells him to bend over in the shower
room. When he bends over, he's wearing locked metal underwear.

Churak

unread,
Apr 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/21/96
to

The "burly convict" was the legendary Randall "Tex" Cobb, who, after being
pummelled mercilessly for 15 rounds by Larry Holmes, told David Letterman that
he could have defeated Holmes if the bout had lasted a couple of hundred more
rounds because his face would have worn Holmes' arms down to nubs.

Tim Mirabile

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
eng...@best.com (Tom Geller) wrote:

>In article <3177A9...@lanl.gov>, Adam Whiteson <ad...@lanl.gov> wrote:
>
>>Not long ago, there was a thread on this group titled "Who is the
>>tallest GM?" This topic, which generated a surprising amount of
>>interest, was treated by everyone as an entertaining bit of silliness.
>>No one saw fit to deliver sanctimonious lectures about the impropriety
>>of such a question. The "Cutest chess babes" is just another light
>>hearted irrelevancy. Is not a license for the Church Lady to deliver
>>one of his sermons!
>
>Maybe so, but at least tallness can be measured with a meter stick. I fear
>the day that someone comes out with a "cute stick."

Nah, too easy...

;^)

+---------------------------------+
| Tim Mirabile <t...@mail.htp.com> |
| PGP Key ID: B7CE30D1 |
+---------------------------------+

Benjamin J. Tilly

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
In article <4lb6q5$n...@netope.harvard.edu>
Timothy Hanke <ha...@harvarda.harvard.edu> writes:

> To the court of Net opinion:
>

"Court"???

> "Benjamin J. Tilly" of Dartmouth has flamed me for not knowing that
> frequent poster Matador "is a woman," and then tried to justify his
> flame.
>

I did not flame you. If you want to see flames hang out on groups like
talk.politics.guns, or some of the other controversial newsgroups.

> In fact, all of Tilly's rationalizations fall flat, because I was
> recently informed in private e-mail that Matador is MALE. So much for
> Tilly and all his PC arguments.
>

As I said before, I posted that because of an incident that I
remembered. I have also been informed in e-mail that Matador is a man
who is often accused of sexism. What probably happened is that he was
posting in the same thread as the story that I remembered, and I
accidentally associated the wrong name to the wrong person. In any case
my previous comments, while the example may have been bad, were still
reasonable.

> As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would
> experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
> Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
> unlike that of a men's prison.

How is this for an unfounded accusation? Please note that nasty
accusations which have no basis in reality (please check on how many
years it has been since Dartmouth went co-ed) just make you look bad.

But if you want to look like a pot, that is your choice.

Ben Tilly

Paul Rubin

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
In article <4l63sh$6...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,

Tim Farris Kadom <no...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>I once underestimated a woman chessplayer (I know I am blatantly
>sexist but for some strange reason I thought she would be easy, and I
>took the match very lightly) , She beat me, and I figured it was
>because I was too busy flirting with her. She was then, and is now a
>beautiful woman. She beat me again, and I have not underestimated
>her since ! In both games I wasnt really concentrating on the game,
>I kept looking up at her, and she kept smiling at me. When I play
>her now I consciously refocus on the game whenever I find myself
>drifting off. Perhaps things are a bit easier now that she is my
>fiance, but Ishe can still make me loose my concentration in more
>blatant maneuvers...

Gosh, and I thought I was sexist because of what I found
myself thinking the couple of times I've played women opponents:
"I go here, he goes there, I go here, he goes there...".
It's just what I'm used to.

Duif

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
For what it's worth, there is no question that men can be the victims
of sexism as well (ask any young man who's wanted to take Home Ec
instead of Shop in high school). The human mind is most comfortable
finding patterns, even where none exist: it's one of the challenges
in chess ("Sure, bishops of opposite colours are USUALLY drawish: but
what's actually happening --here--?"). As my father has often said,
there are certainly group norms, but there are always individual
variations.

--Duif

"The world is divided into two kinds of people:
those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who
don't." ;)


--
du...@bluemtn.com blue mountain software
We hire the best technical people in the world. We expect them
to have good ideas and strong opinions--not necessarily those
of the management.;)Our motto:"Work hard,have fun,make money"
[Delphi,VB,and other RAD technologies. 770-857-TECH, Atlanta]

blue mountain software is pleased to sponsor "Duif's Place," a
webpage for chess players, including THE GUIDE FOR FANS AND
NEW TOURNAMENT PLAYERS. http://www.mindspring.com/~duif


Eugene S. Thompson

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
To whom it may concern (Notice I avoided using "Dear Sir"),

I find that I fall into the group of "Angry White Males," which is
unfortunate, as I find that statement both sexist and racist. The only
thing I am "angry" about is the fact that I am grouped with a bunch of
crybabies!

Now that my bonafides are established, I would like to jump up on my
soapbox and tell you all what I think of this thread (if you don't
care, I suggest you hit <delete> now).

I think the original idea was juvenile: we are interested in chess
here, not someone's libido. When the topic shifted to the mental games
played over the chess board, I became more interested. I have never
actually played in a tournament, so these revelations intrigued me.
The women I have played have all beaten the crap out of me; a result
which hold if they were naked or I was blind! In other words, their
looks had nothing to do with the win, only their skill and/or my
distinct lack of it. If the idea of playing/interacting with an
attractive woman is enough to break your concentration, you need to
get out of the house just a little more often!!

The second issue I have with this thread is the insurgence of all the
politically correct tripe. The idea behind PCism (IMO), is acceptance
not discipline. Forcing your beliefs on others harkens to a certain
asian revolution. I don't care for PC. While its origin is admirable,
it has evolved into a label-applying, name-calling police-state!
People should treat each other with respect because that want to, not
because they are pressured to. Kinda' like a gilted cage.

OK. Those are my thoughts. I expect tons of mail/re. posts from more
enlightened people who want to show me the error of my ways. Yippy.

I'm done now.

Gene

gtho...@pin-corp.com

Adam Whiteson

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
: >As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would

: >experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
: >Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
: >unlike that of a men's prison.

: So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the soap"?

: When I see this thread, I am reminded of Leslie Nielson in one of
: his movies, where some burly convict tells him to bend over in the shower
: room. When he bends over, he's wearing locked metal underwear.


Alright guys, that's ENOUGH! This is chess.misc. CHESS! A game played
by moving wooden pieces around a checkered board.

Adam Whiteson

Hendrik Makaliwe

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to
In article <phrDq8...@netcom.com>, p...@netcom.com (Paul Rubin) wrote:

> Gosh, and I thought I was sexist because of what I found
> myself thinking the couple of times I've played women opponents:
> "I go here, he goes there, I go here, he goes there...".
> It's just what I'm used to.

I usually adjust my thinking according to who I'm playing against:
"I go here, that cute little girl goes there;
I go here, that cute little girl goes there, now she's going to look
at the other wing - a chance to see her from another side,
I go here, that cute little ... "


cheers

Churak

unread,
Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
to

So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the pawn"?

Peter Stein

unread,
Apr 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/23/96
to
In article <4lh8hr$s...@news2.texas.net>, Churak <bays...@intrepid.net> wrote:
>In article <317BA3...@lanl.gov>, Adam Whiteson <ad...@lanl.gov> wrote:
>>: >As a Harvard man, I am not surprised that a Dartmouth man would
>> : >experience gender confusion. For many years, Dartmouth was all-male.
>> : >Dartmouth's remote and isolated location led to a social scene not
>> : >unlike that of a men's prison.
>>
>> : So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the soap"?

BOHICA !

>>: When I see this thread, I am reminded of Leslie Nielson in one of
>>: his movies, where some burly convict tells him to bend over in the shower
>>: room. When he bends over, he's wearing locked metal underwear.
>>
>>
>>Alright guys, that's ENOUGH! This is chess.misc. CHESS! A game played
>>by moving wooden pieces around a checkered board.
>>
>> Adam Whiteson
>
> So whattreya saying: "Don't pick up the pawn"?

I was doing my best to restrain myself, but I just can't hold back anymore: :-)

1. Karin Waal-Jorgensen ~1900
2. Pia Cramling GM
3. Suzanne Maksimovic WIM?
4. Ketevan Arakhamia GM

Honorable mention goes to the babe that GM Epishin had in tow at last year's
World Open. She may not be a chess player, but definitely garnered much
attention. The scene was quite surreal, Epishin who looks like an Iowa
corn chucker with this girl who was centerfold quality. Go figure.

If you guys would've posted some of these names you would have spared me
this post. Don't bother flaming or lecturing. I am the antichrist of
political correctness and will not be apologetic for being a healthy
male who has testosterone coursing through his circulatory system.

For some reason all this makes me think of a rather humorous quote from
Korchnoi on playing Karpov:
"As I sat across the board from him I could sense this seething hatred
for me. A hatred that existed not because I was a superior opponent,
but because I was a healthy normally developed human being."

As Svenghoulie would exclaim: ouw, ouw, OUW! :-)

Peter Stein
n...@xnet.com


edwa...@cc5.crl.aecl.ca

unread,
Apr 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/23/96
to
n...@xnet.com (Peter Stein) wrote:

[various stuff, including correctly putting Pia Cramling high on the list
of chess babes]

>For some reason all this makes me think of a rather humorous quote from
>Korchnoi on playing Karpov:
>"As I sat across the board from him I could sense this seething hatred
> for me. A hatred that existed not because I was a superior opponent,
> but because I was a healthy normally developed human being."

>As Svenghoulie would exclaim: ouw, ouw, OUW! :-)

Maybe Karpov hates Korchnoi because he regularly thinks and relates thoughts
like this? I would.

Geoff
(Karpov fan)

Steve Mayer

unread,
Apr 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/23/96
to
Peter Stein (n...@xnet.com) wrote:

: Honorable mention goes to the babe that GM Epishin had in tow at last year's


: World Open. She may not be a chess player, but definitely garnered much
: attention. The scene was quite surreal, Epishin who looks like an Iowa
: corn chucker with this girl who was centerfold quality. Go figure.

Peter,

True on the lady's looks, but it's probably better not to make such
comparisons about a _married couple_. She's not a random babe, but Mrs.
Epishin (or whatever the correct construction is in Russian).

-Steve

Santa Claus

unread,
Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
gtho...@pin-corp.com (Eugene S. Thompson) wrote:
>OK. Those are my thoughts. I expect tons of mail/re. posts from more
>enlightened people who want to show me the error of my ways. Yippy.

You spelled "Yippee" wrongly.

James Garner

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

Adam Whiteson (ad...@lanl.gov) wrote:

: Alright guys, that's ENOUGH! This is chess.misc. CHESS! A game played

: by moving wooden pieces around a checkered board.

Why do they have to be wooden?

James Garner

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

Duif (du...@bluemtn.com) wrote:

: in chess ("Sure, bishops of opposite colours are USUALLY drawish: but


: what's actually happening --here--?"). As my father has often said,

Bishops of opposite colors are not drawish in the middlgame, where
one side's bishop is often a confused bystander watching its king being
mercilessly ravaged.


Kevin Clinefelter

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

Wooden is traditional, if rare in recent decades. A "fish" is one who
takes the bait; a player who doesn't _see_ the bait is called a
"woodpusher". Hence, the reference is to wooden pieces even though many
of us learned by using plastic chess sets and now push pixels across
computer screens.

steven b

unread,
Apr 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/28/96
to

Can they be plastic On 26 Apr 1996 01:09:16 GMT, da...@tiac.net (James

Benjamin J. Tilly

unread,
Apr 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/29/96
to

In article <4lp7ns$4...@news.tiac.net>
da...@tiac.net (James Garner) writes:

> Adam Whiteson (ad...@lanl.gov) wrote:
>
> : Alright guys, that's ENOUGH! This is chess.misc. CHESS! A game played
> : by moving wooden pieces around a checkered board.
>
> Why do they have to be wooden?

Because we are all silly PC idiots and won't destroy the environment
with plastic.

:-) :-) :-)

Ben Tilly

Hendrik Makaliwe

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

In article <3181A7...@frontiernet.net>, Kevin Clinefelter
<kcln...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> James Garner wrote:
> > Why do they have to be wooden?
>

> Wooden is traditional, if rare in recent decades. A "fish" is one who
> takes the bait; a player who doesn't _see_ the bait is called a
> "woodpusher". Hence, the reference is to wooden pieces even though many
> of us learned by using plastic chess sets and now push pixels across
> computer screens.

We don't really PUSH them.
We CLICK and DRAG them.

cheers

Hendrik

John Hutchins

unread,
May 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/5/96
to

In a previous article, ca...@cdc.net (steven b) says:

>>
>>: Alright guys, that's ENOUGH! This is chess.misc. CHESS! A game played
>>: by moving wooden pieces around a checkered board.
>>

>> Why do they have to be wooden?
>
>

Cute chess babes give me wood

--Mad John--

Jeffrey L. Nauss

unread,
May 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/6/96
to
I thought I might provide an unbiased opinion from my world travels. :-)

--
Jeff Nauss

***********************************************************************
* UU UU Jeffrey L. Nauss, PhD *
* UU UU Director, Molecular Modeling Services *
* UU UU Department of Chemistry *
* UU UU CCCCCCC University of Cincinnati *
* UU UU CCCCCCCC Cincinnati, OH 45221-0172 *
* UUUU CC *
* CC Telephone: 513-556-0148 Fax: 513-556-9239 *
* CC *
* CCCCCCCC e-mail: Jeffre...@UC.Edu *
* CCCCCCC URL http://www.che.uc.edu/~nauss *
***********************************************************************

girls
0 new messages