Was Bobby Fischer autistic?
Steve Mayer
Jonathan Alexander (alex...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I am curious because that is what I have heard. The reason I say
: that is from I heard he had some kind of disorder called Aspergers.
I believe AS kids are usually far more disruptive than Fischer ever was.
: What Aspergers is its a disorder that makes you do one thing and immerse
: yourself in it. In other words you do it 24 hours a day.
: Also, people who are autistic can do one thing to a level that nobody
: can do it, in other words he could see things in a way nobody else
: could. Was he ever formally diagnoised?
The assumption has always been that Fischer was paranoid because of
something such as schizophrenia. However, he was simply far too high
functioning for that to seem likely and the oddities started far earlier
than the traditional onset for schizophrenia.
I quote from Brady's hagiography, _Profile of a Prodigy_:
By his seventh year he became so thoroughly absorbed that his
mother became worried. She decided to use the obsession as a means of
getting Bobby into contact with other children. But not without
difficulty: 'Bobby isn't interested in anybody unless they play chess
chess- and there aren't many children who like it,' she said. She
attempted to place an ad in the _Brooklyn Eagle_ inquiring whether there
might be other children of Bobby's age who would come and play chess
with him...
As I've said many times over the last week, this doesn't sound at _all_
like the picture of a 'normal' kid...it sounds like a kid who had already
suffered neurological damage to the right hemisphere.
His mother, odd as she may have been, seems to have been extraordinarily
concerned...
European readers please note: Arizona, where Fischer lived before moving
to NYC, is even today a breeding ground for all sorts of 'bizarre'
viruses, parasites, fungi, insects with neuro-toxic stings, etc. The
hygenic conditions on an 'Indian' reservation in the mid-1940s would have
been as bad as any in the U.S.
Cheers All,
Steve
Doug
And tell me Steve, how do YOU feel??
John Kobble
Hi Steve.
I do hope you know that by saying Fischer was autistic that your "not"
complimenting him, in fact, it's a very "serious" handicap that really does
not dignify any type of intelligence, but is usually the other way around.
Your saying that Fischer is a retarded genius, yes?
Garry Kasparov, who is not autistic (for sure, and thank god), is a better
chessplayer than Fischer ever was, and he was able to get to that height
without having to go through anything Fischer went through.
What's really ashame about this is that kids all over the world would never
worship an "autistic" chessplayer, if they knew that such a thing was true.
It's sad, really, but you know that's what would happen. I also don't
believe the the government would go after Fischer like they have if they
really thought he had a mental illness, they wouldn't say "Your going to be
arrested and fined $250,000 and locked in prison for 10 years if you come
back!", they wouldn't do that, would they now? They would put him away in
a hospital somewhere instead.
Everyone wants to be the next Bobby Fischer, but no one wants to be the
next "autistic" Bobby Fischer.
Sam Sloan knows all of this stuff, I have to admit, when it comes to this,
he is a grandmaster of getting this type of information.
So please, Sam, clear the record (and hopefully Fischer's name) let
everyone know if Fischer was autistic or not.
Steve Mayer
Doug (dou...@usa.net) wrote:
: And tell me Steve, how do YOU feel??
How do I personally feel or what do I think caused Fischer's tremendous
prodigy, achievement and misery?
Or does he strike ya as being a 'happy camper?'
-Steve
Doug
>How do I personally feel
Yea?
I agree with everything you said except the part of "prodigy" because
there's a lot of speculation running around about that.
I will admit that he had so much natural chess talent, and that he was an
absolute brilliant individual, but "prodigy", I don't know.
And if you say that "Well, here is a book called: "My Favorite Prodigys""
yes, I know that book :)
Samuel Reshevsky was a prodigy. Jose Capablanca was a prodigy. Anatoly
Karpov was a prodigy.
Garry Kasparov wasn't. Fischer (questionable).
Have you ever done a report on Sammy Reshevsky? He was already beating
guys at grandmaster level at 10 years old! Can you believe that? The
person he beat was David Janowski, who, by elo's standards was about a 2570
- 2600 rated player.
Capablanca never even really gave serious study to the game, and he became
world champion. In fact, Jose said once that: "Chess is too boring.", and
this was made when he was world champion!
Fischer had to devote his life to it to get there. Like I said, he's a
pure natural chess talent, raw and excellent.
But prodigy? Hmmm, not that natural ;-)
Steve Mayer
Doug (dou...@usa.net) wrote:
: I agree with everything you said except the part of "prodigy" because
: there's a lot of speculation running around about that.
<snip>
: Samuel Reshevsky was a prodigy. Jose Capablanca was a prodigy. Anatoly
: Karpov was a prodigy.
: Garry Kasparov wasn't. Fischer (questionable).
I would argue that Kasparov was more of a prodigy than Karpov and that
neither is as impressive as the other three 'under discussion,' as they
arose from a 'chess culture.'
<snip>
: Fischer had to devote his life to it to get there. Like I said, he's a
: pure natural chess talent, raw and excellent.
: But prodigy? Hmmm, not that natural ;-)
No, but the type of 'prodigy' that you're thinking of really *is*
extremely rare. The 'new' term is 'splinter skill,' meaning someone who
really _excels_ in one particular area.
FWIW, the estimates are that 'true' splinter skills occur in something
like 1% of non-autistics and more like 10% on the ASD line.
-Steve
Stan
John Kobble wrote in message <01bd70e3$16876120$5d91a6d1@Default>...
>Hi Steve.
>
<snip>
>Sam Sloan knows all of this stuff, I have to admit, when it comes to this,
>he is a grandmaster of getting this type of information.
>
You gotta be shitting. Grandputz is more like it.
StanB
Steve Mayer
John Kobble (kob...@ixnet.com) wrote:
: Hi Steve.
: I do hope you know that by saying Fischer was autistic that your "not"
: complimenting him, in fact, it's a very "serious" handicap that really does
: not dignify any type of intelligence, but is usually the other way around.
Really?
I'd put the figure among chessplayers at...but why give away _all_ of my
thoughts ;-)
The type of autistic you're thinking of would be somewhere in the range
of 70-90 IQ in most areas.
Many of the 'new autisms' have 'nothing' to do with what you're thinking
of when you read the word 'autism.'
Start with introversion and then go through the checklist...
Many of the things that formerly appeared to be simply 'depression,'
'anxiety,' 'obsession-compulsion,' and 'sleep disorders' are, in fact, on
the ASD line.
: Your saying that Fischer is a retarded genius, yes?
<sigh> No, I'm saying that he has an incredible 'splinter skill' of
chess. Anyhow, I believe 'idiot savant' translates as 'unlearned
genius,' not 'retarded genius.'
: Garry Kasparov, who is not autistic (for sure, and thank god),
Hmmm...
How many people would you estimate Kasparov *knows* exist?
: is a better chessplayer than Fischer ever was, and he was able to get
: to that height without having to go through anything Fischer went through.
This is true...Kasparov had far less to overcome, both in literal terms
and given the acceptance of chess in the culture he came from...
: What's really ashame about this is that kids all over the world would never
: worship an "autistic" chessplayer, if they knew that such a thing was true.
??
You'd prefer they 'worship' a paranoid schizophrenic?
I'm really starting to wonder about adult chess players...
: It's sad, really, but you know that's what would happen.
The 'new learning disorders' are also, for the most part, the 'new autism.'
Guess which specific population led to the DSM-IV revisions concerning
the autistic spectrum disorders...hint, they're younger than most of the
people reading this...
: I also don't believe the the government would go after Fischer like
: they have if they really thought he had a mental illness,
I'm *sure* that anyone who has ever *heard* of Fischer thinks that he
has a 'mental illness' of some kind.
He also knows 'right' from 'wrong' and isn't insane, so the government
is 'correct' from a procedural standpoint.
: they wouldn't say "Your going to be
: arrested and fined $250,000 and locked in prison for 10 years if you come
: back!", they wouldn't do that, would they now? They would put him away in
: a hospital somewhere instead.
Good idea! I'm sure Bobby will catch the next plane 'home.'
: Everyone wants to be the next Bobby Fischer, but no one wants to be the
: next "autistic" Bobby Fischer.
Everyone wants to think that good chessplayers, poets, composers,
writers, scientists and mathematicians run around shouting 'yee ha,
I'm number one' and exchanging high fives with their peers...
I believe that you're confusing professional wrestling with chess...
: Sam Sloan knows all of this stuff, I have to admit, when it comes to this,
: he is a grandmaster of getting this type of information.
And, I note for the record, I have yet to see Sam object to any of what
I've written...
: So please, Sam, clear the record (and hopefully Fischer's name) let
: everyone know if Fischer was autistic or not.
'Alas, that my heart contains two souls!- Goethe
'He got the number wrong!'- Nietzsche
;-)
-Steve
John Kobble
Steve,
Maybe I can understand where your coming from a little bit here.
What people are classifying as "austim" today is a typical, shy, bashful
kid who doesn't mingle with the cool crowd in school.
Sure, alright. That's a little "too" technical for my taste, but ok.
I'm not a doctor (please no flame remark) but I believe I'm confusing what
you mean by austim.
ALL Adult chess players have some level of 'splinter skill' as you say.
Believe me, or they wouldn't be professional chessplayers (he he).
I had a friend who never went outside, stayed in the house, didn't play
with other kids growing up (with me) and kept to himself. He's a pretty
smart guy now. So what level of "austim" does he have?
I have get out of here before I'm classified as "autistic" for just
continuing this stupid discussion!
Bye :-)
John Kobble
Hi Stan.
Hey, your right, but someone has to do it.
It would be interesting to see what Sloan has to say.
The only reason that I said he was a Grandmaster at this stuff is because
he always find stories on people like this.
I know that Sloan really liked Fischer, and that he actually did some
analysis work with Fischer, so I want to hear what he thinks about
Fischer's "austim".
Best Regards,
-- John
"If your dog is autistic, don't be afraid, be very afraid!"
Tom Renolds
John,
You mean "autism"? You wrote the whole message using "austim"!
Once, maybe, but the whole message?
Bobby, is this you?? Fischer, come on now, I know your reading this (he
he).
Just messing with you John ;-)
Doug
Steve Mayer <sma...@netcom.com> wrote in article
>neither is as impressive as the other three 'under discussion,' as they
>arose from a 'chess culture.'
Nope. Kasparov really wasn't a prodigy. Just ask anyone here.
It takes a lot more than talent to become good at chess, as Fischer says:
"You have to love the game."
Ken
Calm down everyone, alright?
Steve, I think I know why everyone around here is being a little uptight
about this.
They have different interpretations in their head, and when they hear the
word "autism", they all get this very insane picture in their heads.
But, it's better not to use technical jargon with the RGCM crowd.
Fischer is NOT the type of autistic that everyone is thinking, alright!?
He is in misery because he didn't want to defend his title under some rules
that he made, Karpov didn't have to agree to all of them, and he didn't.
Fischer was a perfectionist, or least tried to be, and we have a lot of
those types of people running around.
Would it make everyone feel better if Steve didn't use the word "autistic"?
Let's replace Fischer's description with a much more deliciously flavored
word: "Obssession".
There we go, we hit the spot. Fischer's chess life has been one big
obsession.
Thread ended, now everyone go home!
;-)
Sam Sloan
Fischer is certainly not autistic.
Fischer is also not mentally ill.
His belief that the Russians might have tried to kill him was not
caused by paranoia, but rather by the fact that the Russians might
have tried to kill him.
Sam Sloan
"John Kobble" <kob...@ixnet.com> wrote:
>Hi Steve.
>
>I do hope you know that by saying Fischer was autistic that your "not"
>complimenting him, in fact, it's a very "serious" handicap that really does
>not dignify any type of intelligence, but is usually the other way around.
>
>Your saying that Fischer is a retarded genius, yes?
>
>Garry Kasparov, who is not autistic (for sure, and thank god), is a better
>chessplayer than Fischer ever was, and he was able to get to that height
>without having to go through anything Fischer went through.
>
>What's really ashame about this is that kids all over the world would never
>worship an "autistic" chessplayer, if they knew that such a thing was true.
> It's sad, really, but you know that's what would happen. I also don't
>believe the the government would go after Fischer like they have if they
>really thought he had a mental illness, they wouldn't say "Your going to be
>arrested and fined $250,000 and locked in prison for 10 years if you come
>back!", they wouldn't do that, would they now? They would put him away in
>a hospital somewhere instead.
>
>Everyone wants to be the next Bobby Fischer, but no one wants to be the
>next "autistic" Bobby Fischer.
>
>Sam Sloan knows all of this stuff, I have to admit, when it comes to this,
>he is a grandmaster of getting this type of information.
>
John Kobble
Hi Sam.
Thank you for confirming this, I really appreciate it. :-)
I think everyone agrees, besides Steve, that Fischer is not autistic.
Even Ken said that he was just "obsessed" and wasn't mentally ill or
autistic in any way.
John Kobble
I think Sloan is a very good person for getting information. Just because
he has his own ideas and beliefs doesn't make him unbelievable.
His stories are always right on target, admit it!
Curt Anderssen
> mother became worried. She decided to use the obsession as a means
of
> getting Bobby into contact with other children. But not without
> difficulty: 'Bobby isn't interested in anybody unless they play chess
> chess- and there aren't many children who like it,' she said. She
> attempted to place an ad in the _Brooklyn Eagle_ inquiring whether
there
> might be other children of Bobby's age who would come and play chess
> with him...
Oh yea, that sounds like a paranoid, autistic kid to me to!
Err, maybe that sounds like a kid who is facinated by the game of chess and
loves it.
I think I'll go with my second one, yep.... that's what I'll do.
Steve, your not a chessplayer, are you? :-(
Steve Mayer
John Kobble (kob...@ixnet.com) wrote:
: I think Sloan is a very good person for getting information.
Agreed...
: Just because he has his own ideas and beliefs doesn't make him
: unbelievable.
Agreed...
: His stories are always right on target, admit it!
And your view on GI Disease, Sam? It appears to me to have an
interesting similarity to many of the new autisms...as in the disruption
of the sleep and eating cycles 'appearing' to 'result' in 'depression,'
'anxiety' and 'chronic fatigue,' etc.
-Steve
Steve Mayer
Curt Anderssen (cu...@iname.com) wrote:
: Steve Mayer <sma...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<snip of Brady's moving description of a very unhappy child>
: Oh yea, that sounds like a paranoid, autistic kid to me to!
No, it sounds like someone in sheer misery who couldn't be diagnosed by
the neurology of his day...
: Err, maybe that sounds like a kid who is facinated by the game of chess and
: loves it.
Yes, we've established 100% that that is part of his illness.
What part of this isn't being processed by some of you?
: I think I'll go with my second one, yep.... that's what I'll do.
Yes, but you're still listing the main 'symptom,' and not answering any
of what I've said.
: Steve, your not a chessplayer, are you? :-(
Yes, of course I am...who are you again?
Cheers,
Steve
please...@spam.com
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 04:50:49 GMT, "Doug" <dou...@usa.net> wrote:
>Capablanca never even really gave serious study to the game, and he became
>world champion.
I think may have been put out for public consumption. Capablanca
probably studied one hell of a lot in his younger years.
Like Fischer's rook endgames for example, according to an article I
read some years ago, they bear the mark of deep deep study.
>In fact, Jose said once that: "Chess is too boring.", and
>this was made when he was world champion!
Also, probably put out for public consumption ... and to irritate his
contemporaries.
Andy Bodkin
In article <01bd7100$7252a740$6291a6d1@Default>, John Kobble
<kob...@ixnet.com> writes
>Thank you for confirming this, I really appreciate it. :-)
>
>I think everyone agrees, besides Steve, that Fischer is not autistic.
Well, actually I agree with Steve, and I think as others have alluded to
the problem is in definitions and modern terminology. What many people
think of as autism is merely one form of it. I am a layman but think I
understand some of the current ideas.
Basically, in any hobby, there is a tendency predominantly amongst men
to become obsessive about it - the trekkers who know every line of every
episode, the chess players who know every game played by every world
champion, trainspotters, computer game freaks, those who know the scores
of every game ever played by their favourite football team, and so on.
Often linked to this obsessive behaviour is an inability to form
'normal' social relationships outside their 'world' (e.g. they may be
unable to relate to women at all). They can talk to people about sci-fi
or chess or trains but on a day to day basis they find it difficult to
cope. Before people attack me for continuing stereotypes, can anyone
who's been to a tournament honestly say they haven't seen any 'nerds' -
I'd say there are plenty about.
These people - who would have been simply nerds, geeks or saddos in the
past, call them what you will are now recognised as having neurological
defects in certain areas, often combined with advancements in others. At
the end of the day, what it comes down to is there is a very thin line
between social ineptness and mental illness, a lot thinner than
previously thought, and in turn between 'focused genius' and mental
illness.
I would say a lot of people in chess exhibit autistic behaviour as this
defines it as indeed in many other hobbies. I can't understand the
obsession, to me it's an enjoyable game but that's it but then I have
many hobbies and many friends who know nothing of any of them. Perhaps
my illness is an inability to relate to those within the hobbies I'm
interested in, together with not being able to decide between them.
In the final analysis it may be that the normal behaviour is actually in
the wrong - certainly, in the U.K. for example, where someone who learnt
'Klingon' and dressed as one for conventions would be considered 'sad' -
whilst the ability to drink twenty pints and fight every Friday is
considered laudable suggests something not quite right with the majority
but who knows.
Regards,
--
Andy Bodkin
Tim Mirabile
Andy Bodkin <and...@b0dders.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Before people attack me for continuing stereotypes, can anyone
>who's been to a tournament honestly say they haven't seen any 'nerds' -
>I'd say there are plenty about.
To paraphrase the old Poker aphorism: "Look around the chess tournament - if
you don't see a nerd, then you're it!" :)
(replace "chess tournament" with "poker table" and "nerd" with "sucker" for the
original)
--
Long Island chess -> http://www.webcom.com/timm/ TimM on ICC and A-FICS
Webmaster, tech support - Your Move Chess & Games: http://www.icdchess.com/
The opinions of my employers are not necessarily mine and vice versa.
Anders Thulin
In article <3542e457...@news.mindspring.com>,
Sam Sloan <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote:
>His belief that the Russians might have tried to kill him was not
>caused by paranoia, but rather by the fact that the Russians might
>have tried to kill him.
I don't think I've seen a better description of paranoia: the fact
that they might have been out to get him...
--
Anders Thulin Anders...@lejonet.se 013 - 23 55 32
Telia ProSoft AB, Teknikringen 6, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
Mig
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:52:45 GMT, "John Kobble" <kob...@ixnet.com>
wrote:
>I think Sloan is a very good person for getting information. Just because
>he has his own ideas and beliefs doesn't make him unbelievable.
>
>His stories are always right on target, admit it!
>
Yeah, and we shouldn't hold the fact that the information he provides
is usually completely wrong factually and/or intentionally misleading
against him!
Mig
ha...@iki.fi.fight.spam
please...@spam.com writes:
> I think may have been put out for public consumption. Capablanca
> probably studied one hell of a lot in his younger years.
Capablanca indeed did study chess when he was young. The rook endings,
for example, are mentioned.
Also, didn't he start working on chess in his later years when he
was an ex-champion?
--
Ari Makela * A tough guy, a helpless dancer. A romantic, is it
* me for a moment? A bloody lunatic. I'll even carry
ha...@iki.fi * your bags. A beggar, a hypocrite, love reign over
http://www.iki.fi/hauva/ * me. Schizophrenic? I'm Bleeding Quadrophenic - P.T.
Sam Sloan
Mig is sitting down there in Argentina where the criminal justice
system consists of taking the accused up in an airplane, flying him
out over the Atlantic Ocean, and pushing him out the door, and yet Mig
claims to be an expert and authority on everything, including even the
criminal justice system in New York.
Here in America, we pretend to have a legal system. It appears to be a
real system to everybody except those who have experience dealing with
it.
Sam Sloan
Mig
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:28:42 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
>Mig is sitting down there in Argentina where the criminal justice
>system consists of taking the accused up in an airplane, flying him
>out over the Atlantic Ocean, and pushing him out the door, and yet Mig
>claims to be an expert and authority on everything, including even the
>criminal justice system in New York.
>
>Here in America, we pretend to have a legal system. It appears to be a
>real system to everybody except those who have experience dealing with
>it.
That's odd, I thought this was about Bobby Fischer and autism. But the
following fits for just about everything you post, so...
Either dispute the facts and information I'm posting or shut up.
Amusing when the best insult you can come up with is to accuse me of
being an expert and authority, though I've certainly not claimed to be
either. (Unlike you, with your repeated claims of being the "world's
greatest expert" on everything from slaves to Mark Taimanov.) Just the
facts, baby, just the facts. Insulting me is not an acceptable
substitute for talking about the facts. If I am wrong nobody wants to
know about it more than I do. I have as much access to information
from here in Buenos Aires as you do in the US, and what's more I'm
capable of reading it and understanding it, something you are either
unwilling or incapable of doing.
BTW, most people living in the 20th century are aware that the
atrocities committed during the military dictatorship in Argentina
were deplored by the citizenry and ended with the fall of that
government in 1983. If we're talking ancient history maybe we should
talk Rodney King, Waco, Kent State, or the slaves you are so
knowledgeable about. Or sticking to modern day, maybe the families of
the hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their own freely
elected government would like a call from you. Perhaps a tally of all
the people killed by the democracies in Argentina vs. the USA would be
of interest?
Mig "Wanna go for a ride in my airplane, Sam?"
CHESS NOTE TO PARTIALLY EXCUSE THIS OFF-TOPIC BLATHER:
A new Mig on Chess should be up in a day or two, this one discussing
that most annoying of all chess discussions: Chess: Art, Science,
Game, Sport, or Snack Food? Also: a preview of Shirov-Kramnik
including a look at ALL their previous games against each other.
--------
"C'mon, c'mon, c'mon, c'mon
jus like a zug
jus
jus like a zu uuuuu u ug and zwa a a a an ngg g g!"
-- Phil Innes
--------
Chess Madness and Mig on Chess. 99% crap-free! (Free crap?)
http://www.chessbase.com
http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twic.html
** REMOVE SBLOCK TO MAIL ME **
Syed Yusuf
Thus spake Doug (please don't post email addresses):
> Samuel Reshevsky was a prodigy. Jose Capablanca was a prodigy. Anatoly
> Karpov was a prodigy.
> Garry Kasparov wasn't. Fischer (questionable).
WHAT? US champion at 14! and Prodigy is "questionable"?
--
,
_ __/|
\`O.o' Core| This has been a test; If this had been an actual life
=(_ _)= Dump| you would have revieved further instructions
-- U http://www.uidaho.edu/~yusuf921
Syed Yusuf
Steve, Tell me about your mother......
Thus spake Steve Mayer (please don't post email addresses):
Stan
Mig wrote in message <35449207...@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:28:42 GMT, sl...@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
>wrote:
>
>>Mig is sitting down there in Argentina where the criminal justice
>>system consists of taking the accused up in an airplane, flying him
>>out over the Atlantic Ocean, and pushing him out the door, and yet Mig
>>claims to be an expert and authority on everything, including even the
>>criminal justice system in New York.
>>
>>Here in America, we pretend to have a legal system. It appears to be a
>>real system to everybody except those who have experience dealing with
>>it.
>
>That's odd, I thought this was about Bobby Fischer and autism. But the
>following fits for just about everything you post, so...
>
<big snip>>
>
>BTW, most people living in the 20th century are aware that the
>atrocities committed during the military dictatorship in Argentina
>were deplored by the citizenry and ended with the fall of that
>government in 1983. If we're talking ancient history maybe we should
>talk Rodney King, Waco, Kent State, or the slaves you are so
>knowledgeable about. Or sticking to modern day, maybe the families of
>the hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their own freely
>elected government would like a call from you. Perhaps a tally of all
>the people killed by the democracies in Argentina vs. the USA would be
>of interest?
>
>Mig "Wanna go for a ride in my airplane, Sam?"
>
---Huh ? Hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their ...government.
??? Gee Whiz that same government must be covering up good, I never heard of
it. Care to elaborate on this ?
StanB
p.s. if he does go for a ride on that plane can I hold the door for him ?
Huh. huh, can I ?
Doug
Yes, yes, I know what your thinking, really!
But there is a big difference.
What Fischer did at 14 was incredible, I mean it! Amazing, something that
very, and I mean very few people could ever do (ever did!)
But that isn't prodigy.
Prodigy is how good someone is right off the bat, like, someone looks at
something, and they obtain "instant" sight of something, pure genius, and I
mean "pure"!
Can you tell me that Fischer could beat a David Janowski at 10 years old??
Fischer is a "chess" genius, Fischer has an overabundance of talent, but
that isn't prodigy.
Mig
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:48:21 GMT, "Stan" <st...@voicenet.ih8spam.com>
wrote:
>---Huh ? Hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their ...government.
>??? Gee Whiz that same government must be covering up good, I never heard of
>it. Care to elaborate on this ?
>StanB
>p.s. if he does go for a ride on that plane can I hold the door for him ?
>Huh. huh, can I ?
Sorry, no cover-up, it's called the death penalty. The USA is the only
country in the Western world to have it and they employ it liberally.
(Though I believe Guatemala still has it in the books.) Over 430 have
been killed since 1982 and record yearly highs were reached in 1995
(56) and 1997 (74).Texas alone has executed 40 people in the past
year. I believe the count of US states with the death penalty went
over 40 last year.
Stan, you're my first choice for doorman. You have to pull double duty
as flight attendant, but I'm sure you'll look good in one of those
blue knee-length skirts.
saludos, Mig "please unfasten your seatbelts..."
---------
"Why do I suspect this will end up in a Mig sig soon? :-)"
--Geoffrey Caveney
---------
Steve Mayer
Syed Yusuf (yusu...@news.uidaho.edu) wrote:
: Steve, Tell me about your mother......
: Thus spake Steve Mayer (please don't post email addresses):
Why do you ask?
If any of 'you' wish to actually do some work, it should be possible for
'you' to determine from the comfort of your den that the 'cold
mother myth' has been destroyed.
But why work when one can simply read the sports page ;-)
Rah rah sis boom bah! (An 'american football' cheer that
female cheerleaders used to use. Explained for the benefit of
non-U.S. readers...)
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Syed Yusuf (yusu...@news.uidaho.edu) wrote:
: Thus spake Doug (please don't post email addresses):
: > Samuel Reshevsky was a prodigy. Jose Capablanca was a prodigy. Anatoly
: > Karpov was a prodigy.
: > Garry Kasparov wasn't. Fischer (questionable).
: WHAT? US champion at 14! and Prodigy is "questionable"?
Under the classic meaning of the term, Fischer could hardly have been a
prodigy...only Reshevsky and Capa on the list above would be
'childhood prodigies.'
Note: not 'teen' prodigies...
The Polgars *are* childhood prodigies but they could equally as well
have been taught to speak Latin with more or less perfect pronunciation...
'So much' for prodigies ;-)
Cheers,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Mig (m...@impsat1.comSBLOCK.ar) wrote:
<major snippage>
: If I am wrong nobody wants to know about it more than I do.
Thank you...did you read my mind?
: I have as much access to information from here in Buenos Aires as you
: do in the US,
I dunno 'bout that, Mig. Isn't it simpler to just *ask* someone ;-)
But Mig is very 'on-target' here. Anyone who plays chess well should be
able to manipulate searchable databases...you know, 'ChessBase'
and 'Chess Assistant' and so forth ;-)
: and what's more I'm capable of reading it and understanding it,
: something you are either unwilling or incapable of doing.
Actually, I know Sam and you're being just a little unfair to him
here...I know people who *love* the guy.
He's frequently 'playing games' but I've never caught him making a
statement that *I* can determine to be 'factual' that he can't back up.
His *interpretations* are frequently an issue, of course, but that's how
chess games are won ;-)
It also helps to know if he's questioned or 'searched' the appropriate
sources but I believe him when he says that the FBI showed up at his door
and tried to walk off with his stuff a few months ago, for instance.
: BTW, most people living in the 20th century are aware that the
: atrocities committed during the military dictatorship in Argentina
: were deplored by the citizenry and ended with the fall of that
: government in 1983. If we're talking ancient history maybe we should
: talk Rodney King,
I like Rodney. I'm not so 'charmed' with people who drive through
residential areas at the speed he did but he did get a raw deal...
But god, he really was a bad 'career criminal.' No more than an 800 ELO,
I'd guesstimate ;-)
: Waco,
I know ATF agents and I have a lot of *respect* for them...it was
idiotic to try to serve a no-knock warrant on Koresh and they know it.
Hey, it's a 'legacy agency' and pure as the driven snow when it comes to
not taking pay-offs, etc. It could use better guidance but that's true of
so many people ;-)
: Kent State,
Nonsense, Mig, and you should know better.
It was far easier- in this country and in that era- to stand in a herd and
dare the employees of your parents to 'take you on' than it was to take a
stint in a federal pen as a *genuine* conscientious objector.
For the record, that's what one of my favorite professors in University
did, so no 'wiseass' or 'you weren't there' comments from the hippies...
The poor whites and blacks who were spat on by the rich kids...they were
the real heros of that war.
Yes, 'resistance as a group' has it's place, but not when you're high,
horny and ready to cross the border.
That's self-interest, not moral courage.
And no, I'm not looking to discuss Vietnam with folks...so many of the
'fake COs' just wanted to get high and laid, as they demonstrated so
convincingly in the era after the war (1974-1982...it was called
disco...so much for moral courage or political convictions)
: or the slaves you are so knowledgeable about.
Even there, there were social forces in place to limit the plantation
owners in the U.S., e.g., social ostracism.
I assume that you're familiar with the interesting distinctions between
slavery in Protestant and Catholic countries...no miscegenation (i.e.,
intermarriage), fewer multiple familes, less sexual contact, greater
cruelty, etc., in 'these parts.'
: Or sticking to modern day, maybe the families of
: the hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their own freely
: elected government would like a call from you.
Hmmm...very complex issue...
Give me 168 men on horseback and see what 'mercy' *I'll* show to 80,000
people who get in my way...
: Perhaps a tally of all the people killed by the democracies in
: Argentina vs. the USA would be of interest?
Let's play fair, Mig. Throw in the Germans and Spaniards (i.e., the most
militaristic elements in Argentenian history), don't limit their actions
to 'Argentina' or require that they have actually have *lived* there and
I'll be glad to do the head count with ya over the last 600 years and
around the globe.
Hint: 'Your' side would tally up tens of millions more deaths, mein
freund :-)
: CHESS NOTE TO PARTIALLY EXCUSE THIS OFF-TOPIC BLATHER:
No excuses needed ;-) But just to throw in a bit of chess content...
How many points is a rook worth? :-)
-Steve
Steve Mayer
Stan (st...@voicenet.ih8spam.com) wrote:
<major snippage>
: ---Huh ? Hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their ...government.
: ??? Gee Whiz that same government must be covering up good, I never heard of
: it. Care to elaborate on this ?
I believe that Mig is discussing capital punishment, Waco, etc.
His facts are absolutely correct...is this even a question with Mig any
longer? I disagree with some of his interpretations, but that's how one
does all kinds of things- chess included!
: StanB
: p.s. if he does go for a ride on that plane can I hold the door for him ?
: Huh. huh, can I ?
Hmmm, if Stan, Mig and Sam went up on an airplane with only two
parachutes, why would I fear for Stan's safety ;-)
(Old algorithm for plenty of jokes...nothing personal, Stan.)
Cheers All,
Steve
Doug
It sounds like to me that your son is actually more capabable of doing
"other" things than Fischer is. He has a much more broad, and wide angle
of interests.
Steve Mayer seems to have a great deal of knowledge in Psychology, so I
would take his advice on the very technical "know-how" before I would
consider anything else.
And if he says that Fischer wasn't "Aspergers", than I'll agree with him.
Steve Mayer
and...@see.sig wrote:
: Mr. Alexander,
: I don't know enough about Bobby Fischer to be able to comment
: intelligently on the probability of him being an Asperger's person.
: OTOH, the folks who replied to your inquiry, don't know ANYTHING about
: Asperger's,
As the first person- to my knowledge!- to make even a halfway realistic
'diagnosis' of some sort of ASD condition in Fischer, I would appreciate
knowing more about AS.
You undoubtedly know far more about it than I do, so we can do this in
email if you prefer.
: Having seen and read about Bobby Fischer's behaviors, especially as a
: young man, I would not be at all surprised to learn that he indeed
: could have been diagnosed with Asperger's.
Nope...not even close...but let's talk...
: My son, who is now 11, after only one year of playing chess is
: excellent at it and progressing quite well. It's the only thing that
: has truly grabbed his interest and he can spend hours concentrating on
: it, learning, competing. It has become his life. If you ask him what
: he wants to become when he grows up, he will tell you "a chess
: teacher." He is socially maladroit, rather klutzy physically, but has
: a measured IQ in the genius range. Does algebra in his head and could
: give change when he was 3. He has a fine sense of humor, talks in
: metaphors, has terrific imagination, writes well, and gets straight As
: in school. He is an Asperger's child.
He sounds like a terrific kid with terrific parents. Would I be wrong
in assuming that he was 'caught' early on?
BTW, I either disagree with the classification of AS for your son or
it's far more open to intervention than some of the articles suggest...
: An excellent article on the subject of Asperger's can be found at:
: http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/as_thru_years.html
: The homepage for resources on the illness is at:
: http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/index.html
Yep...of course I'm familiar with that site...
: Is it possible that Bobby Fischer has Asperger's? YES.
Not a chance in Hades...he would have been far more disruptive (is my
understanding) and prone to public displays of rage and frustration in the
public school system of the late 1940s if he had been a genuine AS kid rather
than somewhere else on the ASD line...
but let's talk via email.
Cheers All,
Steve
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
>
> As I've said many times over the last week, this doesn't sound at _all_
> like the picture of a 'normal' kid...
Bobby Fischer certainly wasn't normal.
> it sounds like a kid who had already
> suffered neurological damage to the right hemisphere.
>
As I've said many times over the last week, that's an extraordinary
claim. Is his solitariness the only evidence? I don't know of
anything else.
I'm not trolling here, I'd be really interested to know what evidence
you know of that is sufficient to diagnose an autistic disorder.
D
--
Dave Regis &8^D* a dry, fruity red
D.Regis
Jonathan Alexander writes:
> I am curious because that is what I have heard. The reason I say
> that is from I heard he had some kind of disorder called Aspergers. What
> Aspergers is its a disorder that makes you do one thing and immerse
> yourself in it. In other words you do it 24 hours a day. Also, people
> who are autistic can do one thing to a level that nobody can do it, in
> other words he could see things in a way nobody else could.
Where did you hear this? There is an ill-tempered thread going on
under the title "Re: How Bobby Fischer excelled his talent" (I know,
I'm providing some of the ill temper).
> Was he ever
> formally diagnoised?
Neither as autistic or as Apserger's, but things were different when
he was in school.
> Also, I have another question did Bobby Fischer
> ever loose a game?
Yes, many. "You will need to lose hundreds of games before you become
a good player", said Capablanca.
D.Regis
> and...@see.sig wrote:
>
> : Mr. Alexander,
>
> : I don't know enough about Bobby Fischer to be able to comment
> : intelligently on the probability of him being an Asperger's person.
> : OTOH, the folks who replied to your inquiry, don't know ANYTHING about
> : Asperger's,
>
Thanks for your helpful commentary and list of links.
> : Is it possible that Bobby Fischer has Asperger's? YES.
>
> Not a chance in Hades...
I would have thought Asperger's was a more likely candidate to
describe Bobby Fischer's mental health than other autistic spectrum,
but also that more general psychological and social difficulties would
describe it better than either.
> : , rather klutzy physically, but has
I think this characteristic motor clumsiness of Asperger's is absent
in Bobby Fischer.
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
re.: Fischer & autism
> Many of the 'new autisms' have 'nothing' to do with what you're thinking
> of when you read the word 'autism.'
Come on Steve, put up or shut up. Which 'new autism' do you suggest
Fischer has? Could you at least quote the description if not the
supporting evidence?
Steve Mayer
D.Regis (dre...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
: sma...@netcom.com writes:
: re.: Fischer & autism
: > Many of the 'new autisms' have 'nothing' to do with what you're thinking
: > of when you read the word 'autism.'
: Come on Steve, put up or shut up. Which 'new autism' do you suggest
: Fischer has? Could you at least quote the description if not the
: supporting evidence?
Dave, there's no 'description' as such to quote...it's as if you're
asking me to summarize the uses of a hammer...
for banging nails
for scratching itches
for cracking open walnuts to eat
for defending oneself in troubled times
for performing emergency surgury
for sticking under one's raincoat so that 'dangerous hombres' think you
have a handgun
and so forth.
As I recall, last week you suggested that hammers can only be used to
drive nails, yes?
And FWIW, I've already been invited to speak at a professional
conference on the new autisms next year. I've respectfully declined...
After all, I'm just a chess professional and completely ignorant of such
things ;-)
Cheers All,
Steve
: D
Phil Hartley
Andrew,
I don't mean to "burst" your bubble, but something like Fischer as far as
his achievement is something that comes about once a centruy.
;-) yes I know, I wanted my son to be the next Bobby Fischer too, and after
seeing that movie, who wouldn't, right?
But that's fantasy, this is reality.
The truth is that Fischer is SO much more than genius, he's a phenomanon.
I had to have seen over 200 chess kids with advacned intelligence and skill
raning from a 120 - 170 IQ over the past decade, all claiming to be the
next Bobby Fischer.
But very few of them achieved the GM norm, and none of them are at
Fischer's level.
Yes, some of them were Aspergers as well, I remember now. I don't want to
discourge you or anything, but for something like Fischer to be created,
all things have to be right.
I don't have the answer, but I do know that Fischer is truly unique, and
that's why so many people love(ed) him.
and...@see.sig wrote in article <3545646e....@news.mindspring.com>...
> On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:08:34 -0400, Jonathan Alexander
> <alex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >:|I am curious because that is what I have heard. The reason I say
> >:|that is from I heard he had some kind of disorder called Aspergers.
What
> >:|Aspergers is its a disorder that makes you do one thing and immerse
> >:|yourself in it. In other words you do it 24 hours a day. Also, people
> >:|who are autistic can do one thing to a level that nobody can do it, in
> >:|other words he could see things in a way nobody else could. Was he
ever
> >:|formally diagnoised? Also, I have another question did Bobby Fischer
> >:|ever loose a game?
> >:|Sincerely,
> >:|Jonathan Alexander
>
> Mr. Alexander,
>
> I don't know enough about Bobby Fischer to be able to comment
> intelligently on the probability of him being an Asperger's person.
> OTOH, the folks who replied to your inquiry, don't know ANYTHING about
> Asperger's, therefore their comments are not even marginally cogent.
> Having seen and read about Bobby Fischer's behaviors, especially as a
> young man, I would not be at all surprised to learn that he indeed
> could have been diagnosed with Asperger's.
>
> My son, who is now 11, after only one year of playing chess is
> excellent at it and progressing quite well. It's the only thing that
> has truly grabbed his interest and he can spend hours concentrating on
> it, learning, competing. It has become his life. If you ask him what
> he wants to become when he grows up, he will tell you "a chess
> teacher." He is socially maladroit, rather klutzy physically, but has
> a measured IQ in the genius range. Does algebra in his head and could
> give change when he was 3. He has a fine sense of humor, talks in
> metaphors, has terrific imagination, writes well, and gets straight As
> in school. He is an Asperger's child.
>
> An excellent article on the subject of Asperger's can be found at:
>
> http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/as_thru_years.html
>
> The homepage for resources on the illness is at:
>
> http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/index.html
>
> Is it possible that Bobby Fischer has Asperger's? YES.
>
> Best,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
>
> Andrew J. Rózsa
> Birmingham, Alabama, USA
> <mailto:ro...@pobox.com>
>
Phil Hartley
Also, I should further point out that I don't believe Fischer to be either
in the "autistic spectrum" or "AS".
To my knowledge, none of the individual children, who made the GM norms
later on in their life, were of this either, although there have been cases
of schizophrenia in chess, however those who have had this, didn't stay
long on the scene.
If you want the names, I can get them, but you have to give me a little
bit. :-)
Phil Hartley
Steve,
Perhaps I could direct you to some other books on Fischer that would
perhaps help you understand who he really was.
Purdy's "provacative" book could have a "bad" impact on someone who is
doing research on someone and doesn't have any other references.
Search AMAZON for these:
"My 60 Memorible Games" - You can't get a better idea of Fischer's thinking
than through this book, because he wrote it himself!
Not only does this book show that Fischer is a brilliant player, but has a
sense of humor, amusing, and funny.
"Bobby Fischer: His Approach Chess" - not only talks about Fischer's chess,
but him as well."
"The Bobby Fischer I Knew"
"No Regrets - 1992 WC Bobby Fischer vs. Boris Spassky"
I'm sure others can contribute?
Regards.
Phil Hartley
Phil Hartley <phil_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
>
>Perhaps I could direct you to some other books on Fischer that would
>perhaps help you understand who he really was.
>
>Purdy's "provacative" book could have a "bad" impact on someone who is
>doing research on someone and doesn't have any other references.
Opps! Big mistake here (he he). I meant to say "Brady", not "Purdy".
What in the world was I thinking! :-)
Phil Hartley
I know I said I didn't want to continue, but I have to defend Fischer a
little here (I owe him that at least) :-)
>As I've said many times over the last week, this doesn't sound at _all_
>like the picture of a 'normal' kid...it sounds like a kid who had already
>suffered neurological damage to the right hemisphere.
Your right, Fischer isn't normal. If he was, he wouldn't have been world
champion :-)
Nobody is claiming that Fischer is the average joe, but he isn't what your
claiming either, or at least I don't see any basis of proof for that fact.
>European readers please note: Arizona, where Fischer lived before moving
>to NYC, is even today a breeding ground for all sorts of 'bizarre'
>viruses, parasites, fungi, insects with neuro-toxic stings, etc. The
>hygenic conditions on an 'Indian' reservation in the mid-1940s would have
>been as bad as any in the U.S.
Are all people living in Arizona autistic?? Where is the foundation of
this?
Regards.
Phil Hartley
Steve Mayer <sma...@netcom.com> wrote in article
>things ;-)
Oh my goodness.
This is a troll, isn't it? The whole time over the past few weeks, you've
been putting us on.
Well Steve, you sure fooled me, but I feel much better now. ;-)
Phil Hartley
Just in case nobody got that,
Yes, I'm being sarcastic!
I know Steve meant it. :-)
Mig
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:50:14 GMT, sma...@netcom.com (Steve Mayer)
wrote:
> Hmmm, if Stan, Mig and Sam went up on an airplane with only two
>parachutes, why would I fear for Stan's safety ;-)
>
> (Old algorithm for plenty of jokes...nothing personal, Stan.)
"...because Stan just jumped out with my chess travel pack strapped to
his back!"
Bah dum bump...
Phil Hartley
John,
I just got your message.
I agree with you 100%, that's what I'm trying to say here.
Fischer is much more than just a chessplayer who had the talent, he had
drive, vision, determination, confidence and will.
To find all of these ingridents in one person at a very high level is odd.
>I think that there are people who even have his talent but don't even
realize it.
Yes, but..... could've had his talent, let's say that. I agree that there
are people who could have had his chess playing talent, and it's ashame
they never knew they possessed such a gift, but all talents don't get
discovered (unfortunally).
Regards.
John Kobble
Yes Phil, I agree with you that it isn't very often that a "Fischer" comes
about.
But I think there are people who have his talent, but don't utilize it into
what they could, and I even think there are people who have his talent, and
don't even realize it!
Like you were talking about those 200 students, but how many of them
actually devoted their entire life to chess and studied as hard as Fischer
did?
Stan
Mig wrote in message <35454d2a...@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:48:21 GMT, "Stan" <st...@voicenet.ih8spam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>---Huh ? Hundreds of US citizens recently executed by their ...government.
>>??? Gee Whiz that same government must be covering up good, I never heard
of
>>it. Care to elaborate on this ?
>>StanB
>>p.s. if he does go for a ride on that plane can I hold the door for him ?
>>Huh. huh, can I ?
>
>Sorry, no cover-up, it's called the death penalty. The USA is the only
>country in the Western world to have it and they employ it liberally.
>(Though I believe Guatemala still has it in the books.) Over 430 have
>been killed since 1982 and record yearly highs were reached in 1995
>(56) and 1997 (74).Texas alone has executed 40 people in the past
>year. I believe the count of US states with the death penalty went
>over 40 last year.
>
---Well gee whiz since they outlawed vigilantes we gots to do it in the
public eye.
Now i know offing charming indivduals like Ted Bundy is wrong...Hey those
other
countrys that outlaw it, is that a popular decision ? Or do they do that to
prevent
political executions. I mean we donna do polital executions. See our
justice
system is flawless (ask OJ). Seriously, we don't do it liberally, nah its a
conservative decision.
>Stan, you're my first choice for doorman. You have to pull double duty
>as flight attendant, but I'm sure you'll look good in one of those
>blue knee-length skirts.
>
---Gosh M1ke you're a buddy. Just give me some notice so I can shave
my rear end for you.
---by the bye, I loved your treatise on the stonewall. I just don't know if
that post was appropriate for these newsgroups. I mean these groups aren't
for chess stuff are they ?
Stanb
Steve Mayer
Stan (st...@voicenet.ih8spam.com) wrote:
: ---by the bye, I loved your treatise on the stonewall. I just don't know if
: that post was appropriate for these newsgroups. I mean these groups aren't
: for chess stuff are they ?
Right on, Stan. Let's *increase* the chess signal in this group...
Why are the horses called knights?...I just don't get *that* at all.
Did you hear about the kid who can play *three games of chess* all at
the same time? Is that the world record?
Running and Ducking,
Steve
Steve Mayer
: > like the picture of a 'normal' kid...
: Bobby Fischer certainly wasn't normal.
Of course not. But so many people 'here' wish to treat him as something
he's not, e.g., 'normal or- for that matter- as a paranoid schizophrenic.
: > it sounds like a kid who had already
: > suffered neurological damage to the right hemisphere.
: As I've said many times over the last week, that's an extraordinary
: claim. Is his solitariness the only evidence? I don't know of
: anything else.
No...I'm not sure if you're reading every message that I post...shall we
take this to email so that the chessplayers can get back to discussing
the 'four move checkmate?' ;-)
: I'm not trolling here, I'd be really interested to know what evidence
: you know of that is sufficient to diagnose an autistic disorder.
Right hemisphere learning disorders *are* extraordinarily difficult to
discuss/conceptualize. Aphasia, by comparison, is much simpler, as
Broca's lession is 'easy enough' to see.
But we still don't understand...stuttering? Hmmmm....
Tourette's might simply be...a form of ASD? Hmmmm....
Can *extraordinary* damage to brain myelin occur that will not 'show up'
if one is looking for something else?
Without a doubt...*no one* has disputed this with me...I mean doctors,
specialists in MRI modelling, etc.
Can severe damage occur without involvement of the CNS? (central nervous
system)
Sure can...
In other words, our brains aren't quite like pin ball machines that
'light up' when one hits the correct bumper...
FWIW, a friend of mine has suggested that PET scans might be a more
appropriate measure of some of these things than an MRI. The articles are
probably being xeroxed as I write this, so I'll let y'awl know if they
prove interesting.
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: Perhaps I could direct you to some other books on Fischer that would
: perhaps help you understand who he really was.
: Purdy's "provacative" book could have a "bad" impact on someone who is
: doing research on someone and doesn't have any other references.
Okay, I caught the fact that you mean Brady.
Now, what would you suggest I quote from? Does anyone have his father's
'life story?' Can ya show me a photo of him? Is it known what he 'did
for a living' while he lived in the U.S.?
His mother is/was a flamboyant character...some have suggested that she
may have been schizophrenic.
Why? Schizophrenia *isn't* a disease that comes on late in life and
she *does* appear to have been pretty 'strange' earlier in life...
His sister...whereabouts known or unknown?
: Search AMAZON for these:
: "My 60 Memorible Games" - You can't get a better idea of Fischer's thinking
: than through this book, because he wrote it himself!
Common, Phil, get with the program! ;-)
I'm a chess professional whose family has been 'known in these parts'
(i.e., the U.S. chess world) for over 50 years. *I'm* a second generation
master, my niece- the fourth generation, FWIW, to play competitive chess-
may be the first girl in U.S. history to earn a varsity letter in HS
chess...do I have to write my autobiography here?
: Not only does this book show that Fischer is a brilliant player, but has a
: sense of humor, amusing, and funny.
Yes and it wasn't even 'written' by Fischer...it was spoken into a
microphone by him.
Anyhow, I've been on record in print for at least five years as
considering Fischer the greatest *writer* in chess history...what more do
ya want? ;-)
: "Bobby Fischer: His Approach Chess" - not only talks about Fischer's chess,
: but him as well."
I like Agur's book...I especially like how a lot of players who've never
read him bad mouth it...
But again...nothing germane there...
: "The Bobby Fischer I Knew"
That one isn't ringing a bell at this late hour but I'm sure I have it.
: "No Regrets - 1992 WC Bobby Fischer vs. Boris Spassky"
Yaz and I would probably agree on a lot of things...not entirely
everything but certainly in our love of Fischer. Spassky, 'of course'
I've met on a few occasions, but who hasn't? ;-)
: I'm sure others can contribute?
You missed a lot but all I asked for specifically was a cite to Fischer
and Streisand *knowing each other* in HS.
Okay, shall we try again? ;-)
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: I just got your message.
: I agree with you 100%, that's what I'm trying to say here.
: Fischer is much more than just a chessplayer who had the talent, he had
: drive, vision, determination, confidence and will.
Exactly...Fischer had an extraordinary will and in his chess and
everything else that we love, his will 'converted' itself into reason.
What a wonderful man.
Regards,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: Your right, Fischer isn't normal. If he was, he wouldn't have been world
: champion :-)
:-) Exactly...maybe Euwe was 'normal' ;-)
: Nobody is claiming that Fischer is the average joe, but he isn't what your
: claiming either, or at least I don't see any basis of proof for that fact.
C'mon, Phil, my dad and Fischer were at the same parties in the early
sixties...
A guy has his filings removed...gets arrested on a vag charge, etc., and
we're seriously disputing his 'normality.'
: >European readers please note: Arizona, where Fischer lived before moving
: >to NYC, is even today a breeding ground for all sorts of 'bizarre'
: >viruses, parasites, fungi, insects with neuro-toxic stings, etc. The
: >hygenic conditions on an 'Indian' reservation in the mid-1940s would have
: >been as bad as any in the U.S.
: Are all people living in Arizona autistic?? Where is the foundation of
: this?
Phil, are you actually reading any of this? Where in the text you
quoted did I suggest that *all* people living in AZ are autistic?
Fischer lived on an Indian Reservation for ~2 years between his birth in
Chicago and the move to NYC. Anyone who takes a look at Brady can
confirm this for themselves...
Yeah, like I know anything about Indian reservations...my cousin, the
recently deceased 'Bill' Greene, was the guy (or one of them) who built
up the Page and Lake Powell areas in Arizona...you know, where Mel Gibson
and Jodie Foster and James Coburn paid him rent to live during the
filming of _Maverick_. (Coburn, by the way, is supposed to be a terrific
fellow and all the guys in Page really 'got a kick' out of him.)
'Bill' was a terrific guy who started off a poor boy,
worked his a** off on Indian reservations in the 40s and ended up worth a
boatload of money. Most of it went to the university museums there. Ask
someone in AZ to check into it if you wish...maybe the bloody catalogue
is on line, ya know?
My cousin, Judy Greene, is a painter with a regional reputation (or
maybe national...who knows with painting?) in the southwest United
States. She, for instance, grew up on an 'Indian reservation.'
My sister, who almost died last year of a pneumonia of unknown origin
works on...really?
An Indian reservation? In Arizona? Nah, I've gotta be kidding, even
though it's only taken her two years to establish herself as one of the
very best grass roots fundraisers in the state...I guess the darn papers
in Arizona are 'off the wall' again to be publishing such outlandish
stories...
But again...I am the simpleton of the family and know nothing of such
things...I only know chess and not even that well ;-)
Now would you like me to tell you about all the other relatives? The cousin
who was one of the men who raised the flag on Iwo Jima? (Yes, he's one of
the men memorialized and yes, he died that day.) The cousin who was friends
with Fermi? The fact that I'm 1/4 Scots Irish and *supposedly* related to
Oliver Goldsmith, though I find it equally likely that it was James
Hogg...or both...or neither. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the family
members in the Knesset in Israel...'nice folk' who frequently decide who
controls the government when it's time to form the coalition...
What about the various times Rick Ames and I discussed the future of
computing? This was shortly before his arrest as 'the greatest spy in
U.S. history.' My teaching chess to the son of a Clinton Cabinet
member? One of my students taking 2nd in the national Kindergarten
championships last weekend? My 'passing friendship' with Sandy Bullock
when we were children? My school chums who grew up to write for
successful sitcoms? The time my coach (John Fedorowicz, of course) and
me almost got gangmauled in Boston last summer? The 20 or so
friends...some of them relatives...who've been murdered in the last 15
years by 'psychopaths' on crack or alcohol or heroin?
But 'relax.' How can *any* of this *possibly* be true? After all, no
one who reads this newsgroup has even *met me* in real life. I'm a figure
of mystery and probably a congenital liar ;-)
Cheers All,
Steve
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
>
> As I recall, last week you suggested that hammers can only be used to
> drive nails, yes?
>
Ah no, that wasn't the point: "if the only tool you have is a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail". That is to say, if you are familiar
with autism, you may see autism in Fischer, but if you are a Freudian,
you will interpret his problems as psychodynamic. We must consider
which explanation best fits the available evidence, not whether you
can make a case for a particular explanation.
If you try and shoehorn Fischer into a description of autism, maybe
you can manage it, but maybe there's a different description that fits
better.
You have repeatedly said that you can see autism in Fischer. All I
ask is, explain what you understand of autism that fits what is known
about Fischer. I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong,
but I'm not willing to sit quietly through baseless allegations.
So far you have said "read DSM-IV and then get back to me with a
retraction", and given a list of "facts" about Fischer which are
absent from what I have read about Fischer. I find this
disrespectful.
I have read what I can find about autism in DSM-IV and looked again in
books about Fischer and have tried to match one with the other with
the help of your posts. They don't match up. Where do I find "fear
of eyes" in DSM-IV, where do I find "fear of eyes" in accounts of
Fischer? Or will I find "photosensitivity" in both cases? Or "fear
of touch"? Or that he had "no friends"? Or anything that exists
outside your own posts?
> And FWIW, I've already been invited to speak at a professional
> conference on the new autisms next year.
>
I hope you are more forthcoming with the evidence when you speak to
them than you have been with us.
D
--
_
/ "()/~ May your pieces harmonise with your Pawn structure and &8^D
|| \_/| your sacrifices be sound in all variations Dave Regis
~\ / Exeter Chess Coaching Page
_|||__SHEU ~/sheu.html http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/chess.html
Phil Hartley
>one who reads this newsgroup has even *met me* in real life. I'm a figure
>of mystery and probably a congenital liar ;-)
Steve,
I would never use that word becuase I think it's rude and unnessecary for
someone to call someone that, because I have respect for your opinions and
everyone else's.
But yes, I agree, this thread is getting a little old, and probably
starting to get on people's nerves.
So I'll be off. :-)
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: Steve Mayer <sma...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<snip>
: I would never use that word becuase I think it's rude and unnessecary for
: someone to call someone that, because I have respect for your opinions and
: everyone else's.
My point, of course, is that it's difficult to know someone if you only
think they're words on a page.
: But yes, I agree, this thread is getting a little old, and probably
: starting to get on people's nerves.
: So I'll be off. :-)
Darn! Phil was alleged to be the one man who could provide a citation
to indicate that Streisand and Fischer were 'buddy buddy' in high
school. Now I've scared him off...
Okay, again. Does anyone have proof of 'these things' (e.g., the
friendship between BS and BF) or are we chessplayers showing our usual
timidity in the face of primary sources?
Cheers All,
Steve
Doug
Hey, I know!
You mean Barbra and Bobby back in high school?
Yes they were friends! In fact, she thought that he was cute.
I have the data here somewhere, I'm sure Phil has it too.
Doug
Hey, if you really want to know about Bobby and Barbra, ask the following
people:
Palle Mathiasen - pa...@chesschampions.com
Richard Fireman - rcfc...@aol.com
Sam Sloan - sl...@ishipress.com
These people know for a fact and have proof that Bobby and Barbra were very
close friends, and that Bobby was also very good friends with GM Larry
Evans.
Did you know that Fischer and Evans, in the 60s, actually held a chess
match in a swimming pool?
Yes, Fischer and Evans played in their bathing suits in a swimming pool,
they had the chess board floating on the water on a small wooden board, it
was awesome!
I never saw a match in water before, this must have been a first.
I must say that both Bobby and Larry knew how to have a good time, because
it was very inventive to play a match over water like that. I like Fischer
and Evans for both their genius and creativeness to have such an event,
fun!
Larry Evans, who writes his own chess column, was saying how close he and
Fischer were.
I think that should eliminate him from this right off the bat.
Phil, don't worry, I got the evidence for ya! ;-)
Steve Mayer
D.Regis (dre...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
: sma...@netcom.com writes:
: >
: > As I recall, last week you suggested that hammers can only be used to
: > drive nails, yes?
: >
: Ah no, that wasn't the point: "if the only tool you have is a hammer,
: every problem looks like a nail".
And I'm saying that *my* 'hammer' can generate multiple interpretations,
while your hammer can't. Therefore, you end up restricted in your
perspectival positions. For better or worse, you then end up accusing
me of what you're closer to doing, in fact.
And there's nothing 'personal' about this, Dave, anymore than there's
anything 'personal' about our analyzing a chess game together or doing a
close reading of Antony's Funeral Oration.
In fact, I've been saying for about 10 days now...refute me, *keep* me
refuted and I'll move on. No one has even come close to doing so,
leaving aside a few people who've attempted to apply sotto voce whispers
and expected me not to be able to answer them...or come up with my own
sotto voce whispers...
But it's a house of mirrors...everytime you, for instance, point me to a
*specific* cite that's supposed to demonstrate something that *I* don't
believe, it comes from (for example) Phil H.
I ask him for it and he gives me an incomplete bibliography. Said biblio
doesn't include the cite I'm looking for and have been asking for for
several days. *I* don't believe it exists but I'm willing to grant that
it may, in fact, be in the literature and from a reliable source.
Then I'm told how little I know about such things, how I'm
boring people and it's time to 'be a good little boy' and go away now.
Frankly, I'm starting to understand why Fischer didn't want to *play* with
us...and still doesn't ;-)
Third parties, some of whom know themselves or their loved ones to
be on the ASD line, stop by in rgcm, post a message or two that's in
fundamental agreement with me and are promptly told to go away...they
simply 'can't' know what they're talking about, after all.
Folks who have played chess for- I'll be 'mean' and guess- six months to
three years and may be able to analyze four play deep- ask me if I'm a
chessplayer or what *I* now about any of these subjects.
And I don't mean *you*, Dave. I agree with Phil...I'll take it to email
at this point, because chess is simply *too* important a subject to
clutter up it's Usenet groups with such prattling. Let's get away from
the children and let them say,
"Is it true that Fischer had x-ray vision?" or whatever the heck they'll
come up with next.
: That is to say, if you are familiar
: with autism, you may see autism in Fischer, but if you are a Freudian,
: you will interpret his problems as psychodynamic.
I'm familiar with both, IMO, and could point to perhaps a dozen other
*areas* (note: _not_ interpretations...I know hundreds or even thousands
of those...I mean things *I* haven't come up with) that may or may not be of
interest to an educator working with 'special needs kids'
Some ASD people have morbid-comorbid conditions, for example. To cite
an educated guesstimate from the med literature, 1/3 of them are prone to
epileptic seizures.
Epilepsy, hmmm? Guess we just explained a lot with that...now we can
rest easy, yes?
But *not* if the 'patient' has multiple illnesses or a morbid-comorbid
condition(s).
: We must consider
: which explanation best fits the available evidence, not whether you
: can make a case for a particular explanation.
And I'm *not* doing that...*you* and a few other people are. I'm saying
refute me on, for instance, details of the known biographical record, do
it with genuine reliable primary sources and I'll *drop* that
*particular* possibility.
Alternatively, someone of- for instance- Walter Shipman's *character*
could probably convince me that I'm wrong in some way...but that's, in part,
because he's known my family for over fifty years, knew Fischer, knows
chess, knows all *kinds of things* that I, too, know.
Look, eventually I'm going to be writing and presenting on all of these
things...not necessarily Fischer, but the ASD line and what I'm calling
the 'new autisms.'
Think you'll get a chance to take on my work once it's fully developed?
Anand couldn't do it on short notice in the 1995 WCC match...- though he
*did* find holes in the last Soltis Dragon game he and GK played. But
that's because he and his crew spent a lot of time working hard and
taking apart my first book...they just missed it in their pre-match prep
and started from too far behind.
And yeah, that is in primary sources that you can check. Care for the
cites to what Woolf has to say on the topic?
Alternatively, should I email you or snail mail you the review of my
work and what Rene Olthof- presumably speaking for the editorial staff of
_New in Chess_- had to say about it? 'He" (they) thought that- without
question- Kasparov had used the book, 'ripped it apart' (that's a
figurative trope on my part) and generated some 'ideas' out of it.
My views on 'the Tchigorin knight myth' have been in hard copy for six
months and in the 'appropriate circles' for more like a year and a half. No
one has even *attempted* to answer that one yet. Odd; I'd expected some of
the chess historians to go ballistic when I trashed such an honored
myth... ;-)
Like Fischer, I'm a tremendous researcher and I'm willing to go out on a
limb. Any real chessplayer *has to be willing to do that* or he/she
isn't a real chessplayer....they may be great folks, but they're not
'doing' 'technical' 'chess.'
And please- by research, I include interpretation and original
analytical work in the field...I'm *not* doing database dumps on
*anything* I write about... the databases are esssential in most areas,
these days, but there's a reason one of the better known ones is known
as Oracle...you have to know how to ask them the right questions, do the
leg work, interpret the finding, etc.
: If you try and shoehorn Fischer into a description of autism, maybe
: you can manage it, but maybe there's a different description that fits
: better.
Fine. Now please explain *exactly* how his 'social environment'
accounts for him? Why aren't the kids from, por exemplo, Calcutta or
Brixton or the housing projects *I* can walk to and that *I've* worked in
pouring out chessplayers, mathematicians and poets by the hundreds of
thousands...
Or tell me what you *think* his social environment was and we can at
least start discussing cases.
: You have repeatedly said that you can see autism in Fischer. All I
: ask is, explain what you understand of autism that fits what is known
: about Fischer. I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong,
: but I'm not willing to sit quietly through baseless allegations.
Where were 'you'- any of you- when Fischer was misdiagnosed as a
paranoid schizophrenic? How did *that* label ever come close to
explaining him?
Now we can do our 'work' in public, Dave, but I'm not sure that you're
even seeing every post of mine, as I've listed a lot of different ideas
that at least point to a far approporiate 'diagnosis' of the Fischer
'illness.'
The 'members' of the ASD family tree, many of whom have met me off of ASD
lists or via unsolicited emails I've sent them, at least are willing to
swap ideas.
Some don't want to even do it in email...no problem with me.
But why do so many women, for example, walk into chess tournaments or
chess clubs, mutter something like 'it smells like a zoo!' and wander
right out of our community again?
Even the adult women who play the game will tell you how difficult it is
for them to stick it out with 'us.' Just *ask* them, ya know? Ask a
bunch of 'em and start thinking...
I exclude the 'chess kids' in the U.S. from this- fine chessplayers and
people such as Jenn Shahade, Elina Groberman, et al. I also exclude the
girls, say, 8 years and older who tough it out in the face of
extraordinary peer pressure, parental pressure (in some cases) and
pressure from *some* boys their own age and older to just 'act like a girl.'
Hmmm, I wonder how we can make chess 'big time.' Maybe we should just
present it as a terrific dating service for women 18 and older? hehe
Believe me, that approach has been tried in this country for many
years...not necessarily by 'us,' but by third parties (e.g., Ann Landers
and other 'advice columnsists).
I'm sure glad that the women weren't scared away by first impressions ;-)
: So far you have said "read DSM-IV and then get back to me with a
: retraction", and given a list of "facts" about Fischer which are
: absent from what I have read about Fischer. I find this
: disrespectful.
What do you want? Do you want me to go through Brady- the closest thing
to a 'biography' of Fischer- line by line with you? Do you want to
discuss his mysterious father, who- given the bare bones of the outline
known to us- appears to have worked on classified projects in...Chicago?
The American southwest? How the heck do *I* know?
But you at least recognize, I assume, that a German-born physicist who
lived in Germany, the USSR and the U.S., yet 'chose' to live here in the
WWII era was working on munitions projects of *some* sort, yes?
But I 'forgot'....Fischer is such a charasmatic figure that *any day
now* chess in the United States and around the world will replace
'soccer' (football) as the world's most popular sport...
And Fischer, like many other apparently 'crazy' people (per
DSM-III) is now far closer to 'sane,' given that he's no longer *close*
to 'being' an Axis-II condition.
Hey, I didn't revise the darn DSM-IV...'you people' did, yes? I mean,
what does it suggest *to you* when the closest thing to a 'gold standard'
for all sorts of social, physical and 'psychological conditions'
undergoes *that major a revision?*
Gee...<drooling>
I guess 'you people' were right in the past and ...wrong now? Hmmm, I'm
not sure that quite fits, but I'm willing to go with it until DSM-V
corrects the typos and faulty analyses ;-)
And if you think I'm being disrespectful...don't. You're reading
someone who's applying half a dozen or more literary styles (personas,
forms, whatever) in his public writings...
stop treating me like a hack...
*That's* disrespectful, but I'm sure you don't intend it to be so, so I take
no offense.
: I have read what I can find about autism in DSM-IV and looked again in
: books about Fischer and have tried to match one with the other with
: the help of your posts. They don't match up.
Fine. Wait for the book, which I'll back up with all the cites you
wish. It presumably won't even be on Fischer, but it's not going to get any
easier to 'straighten out the record' once I've provided the leads *I*
consider important (valid).
In what way are my views on Fischer simplistic, Dave?
I assume given your place of origin, your SES, the quality of university
education in the UK, etc., that you know how some things work in the UK or
the U.S. Perhaps I assume that you know *too much* or too little or
whatever. So...
If you really want me to walk you through Arizona history of the last 50
years
or quote you the literature on Type-II alcoholism rates on 'American
Indian' reservations
or quote you the dozens of 'obscure' 'diseases,' most of them endemic and
many of them occasionally epidemic in Arizona
or explain why Fischer's dad was, almost by necessity, doing some pretty
interesting stuff during the 1940s
or 'whatever'
then I'm willing to do so.
Where do you want to start?
But this *is* 'quid pro quo', ya know? Let's take it to email and maybe
you have access to materials that I'm not 'licensed' to 'interpret.'
So eventually I'll just hire my own team in the appropriate areas and
they'll get the materials for me, because they'll have the licenses ;-)
: Where do I find "fear of eyes" in DSM-IV, where do I find "fear of
: eyes" in accounts of Fischer?
???
The inability to sustain eye contact or focus 'appropriately' on certain
objects for the 'proper' period of time is just *known*...period...in *any*
ASD condition.
The *reason* that the 'cold mother myth' was 'created' in the first
place is that the first 'diagnosed' cases of autism were Kanner's
Syndrome (1943). But the cases were *so* extreme* that the mothers were
'blamed...'
And ASD kids *tend* to be only children or first borns or 'pseudo'
first-borns, so the *mothers* had no reason to know *what in the world* a
'normal' child should do.
Remember, too, that 1943 was a very 'hectic' time. Many of the women
had *a lot* going on...
Not to mention the fact that Kanner's Syndrome was *predicted in
advance* of a single case *ever* being 'diagnosed' in the field...or even
in a hospital!
Gee, wonder how they did that... :-)
: Or will I find "photosensitivity" in both cases?
DSM-IV is already a solid 5-7 years out of date. Would you like me to
show you some 'winning' 'novelties' in the Dragon that the most recent
ECO doesn't address?
The photosensitivity can be *examined* easily enough...many chessplayers
have it...typically the better ones who stare at the board...but that
induces tunnel vision, which 'dims' one's peripheral vision. Correct?
Tunnel vision *is* a physiological condition. Correct? Any good
chessplayer or athlete or marksman knows how to adjust for it. Correct?
Good athletes, chessplayers, mathematicans and soldiers frequently have a
'thousand yard stare.' Correct? One can avoid it with certain
self-monitoring techniques, most of which involve a great deal of
conscious or 'self-taught' (i.e., unconscious) techniques. Correct?
Yes to everything I just wrote.
: Or "fear of touch"?
Sex, Dave, sex. How does one have sex with another person?
My apologies to the ladies and youngsters ;-)
: Or that he had "no friends"?
Get Brady and read it.
: Or anything that exists outside your own posts?
yeah, I guess I really am just a chessplayer and shut just the hell up
now...
Thanks for the respect....;-)
: I hope you are more forthcoming with the evidence when you speak to
: them than you have been with us.
If none of 'you' will even so much as crack open a copy of _Profile of a
Prodigy_ and read along with me, then I don't think 'you'll' understand
what I have to say.
And, frankly, a whole lot of 'adult chessplayers' know so little about
children or women or the human body or themselves that I'm not sure any
longer what 'you people' know and don't know.
Switching to Decaf,
Steve
Chessmaster 5000
After evaluating over 500,000 possible combinations and cenarios with
Fischer, I say: "No."
Jonathan Alexander <alex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<354234...@ix.netcom.com>...
Mig
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:24:08 GMT, "Stan" <st...@voicenet.ih8spam.com>
wrote:
>---by the bye, I loved your treatise on the stonewall. I just don't know if
>that post was appropriate for these newsgroups. I mean these groups aren't
>for chess stuff are they ?
>Stanb
Damn, sorry about that. I meant to post that to
alt.architecture.masonry and alt.politics.nixon. And shame on you for
letting out the secret that over on rec.games.chess.analysis we still
talk about chess. (Anyone who wants to know about breaking the
Stonewall with black should check there.) If you keep that up soon all
these yo-yos will be over there and that will be the end of that!
Mig
--------
"I think being a genius helps."
-- Alexander Baron
--------
Chess Madness and Mig on Chess. 99% crap-free! (Free crap?)
http://www.chessbase.com
http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twic.html
** REMOVE SBLOCK TO MAIL ME **
Phil Hartley
Come on Steve, I thought you were letting this go.....
<sigh>
Bobby isn't autistic.
Bobby isn't AS.
Bobby isn't normal (this we agree on, it's a start).
The question is: "What IS Bobby?"
Bobby is a genius.
Bobby had friends.
Bobby had chess friends.
Just curious, you said that Fischer didn't have friends "his own age", but
yet he was very good friends with Barbra Streisand in high school, and I'm
sure other people as well (and I don't have their names unfortunally).
Steve, as a professional chessplayer, I can understand your "curiousity" in
Fischer, I mean, man! This guy was great, how did his mind tick? Wow!
I bet you've asked yourself all sorts of questions, like "What does he
think at the chessboard?".
And then when you think you come to the likely conclusion that he's
"autistic" just because of a reference you read, you posted this
information (opinionated information) all over RGCM.
If anyone who has this for sure, Mig? William Hyde? Ron Moskovitz?
Please end this dispute, and provide proof.
I can prove that he was friends with Barbra Streisand, because I have some
documents about Fischer's history, but then again, Steve could just say
that I wrote them myself, so I would probably be more inclined to tell him
a web site rather than send proof.
I seriously would like to end this dispute, it has been a very
"interesting" talk Steve, and I applaud your relentless fighting spirit,
but Fischer isn't in the "autistic spectrum" :-)))
Regards.
Phil Hartley
By the way,
In case you ask "Your a professional chessplayer"?
I'm not on the scene anymore. I had a peak of 2002 (USCF), but then
discovered that I had more obligated things to do.
There was another thread in which I was giving information for a student
looking for a chess book and another poster accused me of "lying" about my
rating because he couldn't find me in the USCF searchable rating list if
you can believe that.
Regards.
Syed Yusuf
Thus spake Steve Mayer (please don't post email addresses):
> Why do you ask?
Muslims have a saying, "Half a doctor will kill you, half a scholar will
kill your faith"
TO me you sound like an amateur psychologist, so I was hoping before
you drag someone else's reputation through the mud and spawn 10 years of
rumors, you should be in the hotseat for 30 seconds and maybe think
"Gee, *I* wouldn't want someone doing this to ME, what if there was
someone outthere taking this seriously" and perhaps reconsider what
you're doing.
but if you simply MUST analyse Fischer, please do it in a psychology
group away from us emotional chess players :)
> Steve
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Syed Yusuf */^\* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=- http://www.uidaho.edu/~yusuf921 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=- "Government is not a reason, not an eloquence; it is a force. Like fire,-=
-=- it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington =-=
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
> D.Regis (dre...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : I'm not trolling here, I'd be really interested to know what evidence
> : you know of that is sufficient to diagnose an autistic disorder.
>
I'm not unfamiliar with the difficulties of interpreting brain
function, thanks.
I'm still interested to know what it is about Fischer/autism that you
know which makes you say he's (possibly? likely?) autistic.
The things you have mentioned, like Fischer's "fear of eyes" and
"photosensitivity" I'd like to know more about. Where did you come
across them?
You asked us to read through DSM-IV. Frankly, the section on autistic
disorders seems to make no sense in relation to what I know about
Bobby Fischer. Help me, Steve.
Steve Mayer
Syed Yusuf (yusu...@news.uidaho.edu) wrote:
: Thus spake Steve Mayer (please don't post email addresses):
: > Why do you ask?
: Muslims have a saying, "Half a doctor will kill you, half a scholar will
: kill your faith"
: TO me you sound like an amateur psychologist,
And to *me* you sound like someone who paints representational art...
Shall we begin again?
I would really like to learn more Islam...it's world-renowned
mathematicians, it's various offshoots- the larger ones, of course- the
role scribes and clerics played in shaping 'Western Culture' and so forth.
Clearly, these clerics must have been *astonishing xerox macchines* to
so perfectly recreate works that were written in languages that they in
*some* cases had never even seen before.
Is this how human beings *write?* I mean, did these clerics *never*
make 'slips of the pen' in recording what they wrote?
And Plato...he, too, never made slips of the pin?...
There *is* nothing *known* to have been *physically written* by Plato!
So the people- there *were* many!- who copied out Plato's technical
philosphy and maths <---- a typo or evidence of Britsih influence?
And yet...could it be that these clerics were extraordinary
mathematicians in their own write? <----- Look, a pun! ;-)
And then...does that suggest- just a suggestion of a possibility!- that
*some people,* at least, can tell 'on the fly'- or with great effort!-
what other people are thinking? <------ Look, Steve suggests ESP...what
a nabob!
Or maybe there *are* technical fields of learning that one must work
*very* hard at to understand...and what its very best thinkers have
thought about human experience, cosmos and chaos, the atom, etc.
but if one manages to 'break in' <---- A metaphor! Cool...'beyond
carrier' ...from the Greek ;-)
Then one just *might* be able to understand things that 'lower rated
players' don't understand? <------ <sob...Steve's being mean again...
And my apologies for any mistranslations...I only speak English and only
imprefectly at that. I *assume* that the 'modern mutations' on the word
'cleric' in English should be clear enough: clerk, 'clerical
help,' the British Clark, etc.
Huebner, of course, would probably throw a fit ;-)
Now shall we take this to email? I really would like to learn and it's
hard with my kids squawling ;-) Some of them are still grappling with
the 'complexity' of algegraic notation and we only upset each other when
we're in the same room.
Sincerely,
Steve
ob chess content: The USCF should always be careful to hire good
clerical help ;-)
2nd ob chess content: Hmmmm, the AI people have not raised a squeek?
They have *no* interest in my task analysis of a chess master?
Hmmmm....
3rd ob chess content: But hasn't this a task analysis been
performed before on a chess master? Not to *my* knowledge...
But I am a simple man who only plays chess and not even so well at that ;-)
hehe
G' Night,
Steve
And please, Mr Yusef, take no personal offense at anything I write
here. It *is* fun to write, think, dance and play chess, isn't it....?
So then why do so many chessplyers have such utter *contempt* for their
partners? Hmmmm...
: so I was hoping before
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: By the way,
: In case you ask "Your a professional chessplayer"?
Yes...and let me take a wild guess...
You- now I really *do* mean 'Phil Hartley'- even have health insurance and
a retirement plan, both of which you fund out of your own pocket.
Alternatively, if you can't afford them at this time, you would
certainly *like* to have them. (If not, you're making a big mistake but you
strike me as too sober and insightful a person not to do so if at all
possible.)
And the reason why *I'm* not 'entitled' to pay into the USCF's
professional fund but I *am* 'entitled' (i.e., obligated) to pay into it?
Yes, chess truly is a big time sport that will take off *any decade now* ;-)
Just keep holding your breath, turning blue and WATCH, 'man,' WATCH. No
need to 'work for a living' when you're a chessplayer, eh?
Cheers All,
Steve
Phil Hartley
Yea, I know what you mean.
Thanks Steve. :-)
Steve Mayer
Phil Hartley (phil_h...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: Come on Steve, I thought you were letting this go.....
And I *really* thought that you were someone who had some sort of hard
copy citation that you could point me to re: Streisand and Fischer.
: <sigh>
Don't take that attitude with me, young man ;-)
: Bobby isn't autistic.
Okay, Phil, naptime ;-)
: Bobby isn't AS.
If ya say so...;-) I agree that he's not AS but I don't agree that he's
not ASD...
: Bobby isn't normal (this we agree on, it's a start).
Yes...100% agreement! Let's begin again, shall we?
: The question is: "What IS Bobby?"
: Bobby is a genius.
: Bobby had friends.
: Bobby had chess friends.
Sure...and the logical validity of this syllogism is...?
: Just curious, you said that Fischer didn't have friends "his own age", but
: yet he was very good friends with Barbra Streisand in high school, and I'm
: sure other people as well (and I don't have their names unfortunally).
I'm willing to accept that if you can *provide a cite* that
Streisand or Fischer ever said so at any time in their public
careers...but I want to see the darn thing, yes?
Not hearsay evidence, not 'wishful thinking,' etc., but just one damn
source that *any peer referreed journal* in the world would *demand.*
Okay?
And of course Fischer had friends...I really wish I could *trace* these
people, right?
Do any of 'you' have friends outside of the chessplaying community?
We all *know* his chessplaying friends...heck, we all are 'one remove'
from Fischer, yes?
So what?
: Steve, as a professional chessplayer, I can understand your "curiousity" in
: Fischer, I mean, man! This guy was great, how did his mind tick? Wow!
Of course it did!
: I bet you've asked yourself all sorts of questions, like "What does he
: think at the chessboard?".
I have a pretty good idea, IMO, what Fischer thought about all *kinds*
of things. I genuinely love him- he really *is* a hero of mine, etc.,
but where were all of 'you' (i.e., people reading this message) when he
needed you?
Where were his educators when he was six years old? At 12? At any point
in his life?
And *please* don't think I'm slighting Jack Collins here...he was a
*terrific* influence on Fischer, as was Collins' sister.
And when he wasn't in their home or at a chess club or with chessplayers....
Hmmmm....
Oh, but we chessplayers are such insightful people...we really will
teach the world to be a better place by teaching kids how to play chess...
Chess really is so important that we just shouldn't do anything
other than 'create the next Fischer.'
Alternatively, chess is *so* unimportant that no one should even *attempt*
to ask tough questions?
Which is it, 'folks?'
Which is it, Phil?
: And then when you think you come to the likely conclusion that he's
: "autistic" just because of a reference you read, you posted this
: information (opinionated information) all over RGCM.
No...you can keep thinking you're reading a sports writer or you can
listen, read, think and interpret data with me.
It's 'our' call as a group- I sincerely thought that anyone who had
access to DSM-IV and played/taught chess well and could manipulate a
database would have 'seen' what I saw...I guess not.
Not *one* of you is willing to read Brady with me?
No one tells me what to think or write, Phil. Not you nor anyone else.
And yet Fischer...the reason he will come back to play with us any day
now would be...
Ummm...uhhhh...duhhhhh...
And *none of this is personal*, Phil. Really. But 'get with the
program...' There really *are* secrets that people tell me that I can
keep...there really are friends in my life...I really do have a
girlfriend who I would never draem of bringing to a chess tournament...there
really are college professors and 'working GMs' and professionals in all
*sorts* of fields who treat me like something other than...
<stammer>
some yokel who doesn't know what he's talking about. Take me apart, do
it in public, take it to email...any of them are fine with me...
But keep treating me like an idiot and two things. First, I really will
be so far ahead on the curve that it will take years to sort out what 'you
people' seem to think is some sort of 'sick joke' or...
...like Denker, Dake, Fischer, Oscar Shapiro, Walter Shipman, Richard
Cantwell, Fine, Morphy, the 'Fischer generation of American juniors' and
so on...
I'll say goodbye to y'awl at the Wopen 1998. I'll keep in touch with my
friends, but no way I want to end up like Abe Turner.
Catch the reference? I first wrote about the 'case of Turner' and
offered what is- to my knowledge- the first attempt to work out *that*
ugly story in the 'Virginia Chess Newsletter' many years ago. It was a
freebie and I've subsequently seen it plagarized and- I'll guess- sold for
money.
Yeah, why not? Chessplayers don't have to make a living, do they? ;-)
When I say that I may leave the chess tournament scene after the Wopen in
1998...
is that a threat or a promise?
Neither... what I'm saying is that chess is *very* important to me...but
does that mean that I'm supposed to sit still the rest of my life and not
change?
Did Fischer? Have you?
: If anyone who has this for sure, Mig? William Hyde? Ron Moskovitz?
: Please end this dispute, and provide proof.
Yes, please do, folks. Mig and Hyde both know what I'm talking about
re: 'standards of research.' So does John Nunn or any number of the
European readers or people who are willing to swap email with me....
Most of you won't even do that....most of you are just saying, 'So
what? Who cares? Let him go...troublemaker....'
And frankly...but who cares? Who really cares?
*That's how important chess is*, Phil.
: I can prove that he was friends with Barbra Streisand, because I have some
: documents about Fischer's history, but then again, Steve could just say
: that I wrote them myself, so I would probably be more inclined to tell him
: a web site rather than send proof.
Yes, it's always easier to memorize opening theory rather than to do
technical chess.
And why in the world do you think that I would not be interested in
primary sources? Haven't I been asking for them? Are you the only
person who has these documents, Phil?
And let *me* be the judge of whether they're genuine or not.
Stop treating me like 'we' treated Fischer. Stop treating 'me' like
extremely poor teachers *always* treat children.
: I seriously would like to end this dispute, it has been a very
: "interesting" talk Steve, and I applaud your relentless fighting spirit,
: but Fischer isn't in the "autistic spectrum" :-)))
Gee, coach, thanks for the pat on the back.
Now could I please have some cookies and milk?
But what I *really* want are citations, records, leads to relatives,
people who will refute me and keep me refuted and so on.
Believe it or not, I have no intention at this time of writing for
money on *any* of this. I have very little interest in 'hurting anyone's
feelings' and all that 'silliness.' All it would have taken, Phil, is a
bit of 'team work'
rah rah rah
for us to keep this in the family...
The closest thing to a genuine family that Fischer had before he
disappeared so thouroughly that the American school kids of today aren't
even sure if he ever existed... (I mean, of course, the elementary school
chessplayers...)
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
I don't know which voice speaks out of *this* mask but I'd be interested
in knowing (a) who you are and (b) if a genuine task analysis has ever
been performed on a chess master rated 2200 FIDE or above?
I don't mean the kind of simple thing that passes for task analysis in
parts of the AI community, of course...
Rephrased...Benjamin had a hard time making himself understood to IBM
and Deep Blue...Joel helped them extraordinarily and deserves tremendous
respect and praise, as does everyone on the 'team.'
But even Joel couldn't do a deep enough task analysis to come close to
solving the *really complex* NP Class Combinatorial Ordering
Problems... <------ Steve means 'travelling salesman problems'...no joke ;-)
I don't think they *can* be solved with algorithms but maybe branch and
cut can be improved?
But let's just talk chess, okay?
1. P-K4 <--------Best by test!
Discuss!
Note: and please explain why Fischer's love of Descriptive Notation is
*essential* to understanding his views on life.
Duh...guess that's what he 'grew up on.'
<scratching and thinking>
;-)
Cheers All,
Steve
Chessmaster 5000 (cm5...@chessmaster.com) wrote:
: After evaluating over 500,000 possible combinations and cenarios with
: Fischer, I say: "No."
: >
Phil Hartley
Steve,
I'll send you the information on Bobby through private e-mail, but let me
have a crack at this list one more time:
Oh, before I tell you the list, you should know that there are probably
thousands of people how have the information and knowledge that Fischer was
friends with Streisand (it's not a secret) :-)
My new list:
Fischer isn't autistic (ASD you said).
Fischer isn't AS
Fischer isn't completely normal
Fischer is paranoid
Fischer is a genius (chess anyway)
Fischer is a loner.
What do we conclude?
Fischer is a paranoid chess genius who is a loner.
we also deduce:
Fischer is not ASD, AS, and completely normal.
But may I add that "paranoid" is a state which is created, not started in
the human mind, right?
Fischer's paranoia is caused from himself, and has only him to blame (sad
to say, but it's the truth!)
Steve, let me ask you something. How many friends do we grow up with?
Did you ever count them? I only had about 2 - 3 close friends in high
school before I graduated.
We don't really have several friends unless were some big football star
looking to get that winning touchdown at Friday nights game.
Most of the people we deal with are simply "people we meet for the
moment.", and we're lucky enough to make a few friends.
Fischer dropped out of school to devote his life to chess, but while he was
there at school, I'm sure he had friends (aside from Streisand).
What do you think his classmates reactions were when they saw him win the
world championship? (Just curious, off the topic a little).
How about the U.S. championship for that matter? He was still in high
school when he won it. Do you think they teased him because he was so
smart? Or do you think they were in "awe" of him?
I wish I had this type of info. I want to know what his classmates
reactions were to his winning of the U.S. title in 57?
I mean, this is like your in 10th grade, and having the kid sitting next to
you become the chess champion of the United States! Quite incredible, huh?
Regards.
Phil Hartley
Phil Hartley <phil_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
to
>you become the chess champion of the United States! Quite incredible,
huh?
Or 9th grade for that matter!
I believe 14 years of age is 9th grade.
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
>
> are we chessplayers showing our usual
> timidity in the face of primary sources?
*huge guffaw*
Dear Pot,
Are you including yourself in that "we"?
love
Kettle, hiding indoors today because of his "fear of eyes" and
"photosensitivity" and not sure what sort of "new autism" he is
supposed to have anyhow...
P.S. Are you serious about the annotation to Fischer-Trifunovic
showing that Fischer believed Trifunovic could read his mind?
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
>
> Now we can do our 'work' in public, Dave, but I'm not sure that you're
> even seeing every post of mine, as I've listed a lot of different ideas
> that at least point to a far approporiate 'diagnosis' of the Fischer
> 'illness.'
I've probably seen lots of your subsequent ideas, but I
was trying to focus on one or two very clear and very
interesting things you suggested early on in the
discussion - namely, that Bobby Fischer may fall under
a description of an autistic disorder from DSM-IV, and
this was supported by evidence of Fischer's fear of
eyes, fear of touch, photosensitivity, having no
friends, and so on.
I don't lightly use a phrase like 'go away, read the
evidence and get back to me with a retraction' (and I'm
sure you don't either), so I went away and read the
stuff. However, if you no longer think DSM-IV so
relevant, and/or no longer wish to use phrases like
"fear of eyes", then what you are saying is no longer
clear to me, although still interesting.
D
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes (under another thread):
> "Read Axis-I of DSM-IV and get back to me with the retraction."
> dre...@exeter.ac.uk writes:
> DR: I have read what I can find about autism in DSM-IV and looked again in
> DR: books about Fischer and have tried to match one with the other with
> DR: the help of your posts. They don't match up.
>
sma...@netcom.com writes:
> If you really want me to...
...massive list of tasks deleted...
> ...then I'm willing to do so.
>
Why on earth do you think any of that is necessary? I expect in the
time it took to write your long post, you could have done what I
actually wanted. You made an interesting claim, in fact a series of
interesting claims, and I'd still like to understand where they came
from. For example:
> DR: Where do I find "fear of eyes" in DSM-IV, where do I find "fear of
> DR: eyes" in accounts of Fischer?
>
> ???
>
So I can't find "fear of eyes" in either, is that what you are saying?
Was your use of the phrase "fear of eyes" a red herring, and what you
really meant was "couldn't sustain eye contact"? Did Fischer have
difficulty sustaining eye contact? Is it somewhere in Brady's book?
>
> DSM-IV is already a solid 5-7 years out of date.
>
Was your citation of DSM-IV a red herring, too?
> The photosensitivity can be *examined* easily enough...many chessplayers
> have it...
Many don't. How about Fischer?
> DR: Or "fear of touch"?
>
> Sex, Dave, sex. How does one have sex with another person?
If you meant fear of sex, you should have said so. When I think about
oversensitivity to touch in the context of autism, I think about kids
who can hardly bear to wear clothes.
> DR: I hope you are more forthcoming with the evidence when you speak to
> DR: them than you have been with us.
>
> If none of 'you' will even so much as crack open a copy of _Profile of a
> Prodigy_ and read along with me, then I don't think 'you'll' understand
> what I have to say.
The two things that are in that book which fall most obviously under a
description of autistic spectrum are Fischer's being "anti-social" and
having a "splinter skill" of chess. If you had left it at that, I
probably wouldn't have noticed your post, let alone followed it up.
It was all the things you mentioned like "fear of eyes", fear of
"helicopters", "fear of touch", "no friends", "photosensitivity" and
so on that attracted my attention. If that was all for real, I wanted
to hear more.
Steve Mayer
D.Regis (dre...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
: sma...@netcom.com writes:
: >
: > are we chessplayers showing our usual
: > timidity in the face of primary sources?
: *huge guffaw*
Yes, laughter is good so long as it is a belly laugh :-)
Why do so many adult chessplayers prefer to snigger? I mean if they
laugh at all...
: Dear Pot,
: Are you including yourself in that "we"?
That is difficult to say, isn't it? Which group are you including
yourself in, dave?
: love
...is blue ;-)
: Kettle, hiding indoors today because of his "fear of eyes" and
: "photosensitivity" and not sure what sort of "new autism" he is
: supposed to have anyhow...
No one who has seen me play basketballl, baseball, volleyball or
american football in this kind of wonderful weather would ever make that
comment.
Man, it was so great...the traditional street games we played...all dead
now, of course...
The boxing matches ('slap fights') and the 'dirt clod' fights... what a
joyous childhood.
Lucky we didn't all end up with smashed teeth, one eye and severe limps.
Now the kids are so happy and free...they have the adults to show them
how to play.
The kids are all so happy and the adults all do a far better job of
regulating childhood than the children ever could have.
: P.S. Are you serious about the annotation to Fischer-Trifunovic
: showing that Fischer believed Trifunovic could read his mind?
When Fischer's comment is 'out of context,' it's difficult to be sure
*what* he meant by it. By 'out of context,' I mean that even a single
paragraph is difficult to judge.
Alternative question...why does Fischer give an exclamation point to a
capture axb6 in a note to his analysis to Botvinnik-Fischer, Varna 1962?
He also adds the remark ('toward the center') and walks away grinning.
*My* view is that he just explained a whole lot about chess, made a joke,
mocked poor annotators and applied an extremely sophisticated 'writing'
style to...
a position that is trivially winning for him? I mean, isn't he a queen
up in that note? As I recall, yes...but how much more satisfying and
'fun' it must have been than 'writing'
etc. ;-)
Cheers All,
Stevev
Steve Mayer
D.Regis (dre...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
: sma...@netcom.com writes (under another thread):
: > "Read Axis-I of DSM-IV and get back to me with the retraction."
: sma...@netcom.com writes:
: > If you really want me to...
: ...massive list of tasks deleted...
: > ...then I'm willing to do so.
: >
<massive snippage>
: So I can't find "fear of eyes" in either, is that what you are saying?
: Was your use of the phrase "fear of eyes" a red herring, and what you
: really meant was "couldn't sustain eye contact"? Did Fischer have
: difficulty sustaining eye contact? Is it somewhere in Brady's book?
Dave, you have the thing in front of you...you also have access to
materials that *I* am not able to obtain in many cases...
Please pardon me if DSM-IV wasn't written by an individual but by
committee.
As for the speed of my writing...at least 40/WPM when I start putting
down my thoughts...that's why I can write what *you* take to be a long
post and others would labor over for five hours, etc.
: Was your citation of DSM-IV a red herring, too?
Of course not...no more than a cite of ECO A, First Edition is when I
cite it. *Then* everything is as close to 'perfect' as possible.
And you're having this much trouble with my reading notes? Oh boy....
: > The photosensitivity can be *examined* easily enough...many chessplayers
: > have it...
: Many don't. How about Fischer?
Yes, I'm practically certain he does.
: > DR: Or "fear of touch"?
: >
: > Sex, Dave, sex. How does one have sex with another person?
: If you meant fear of sex, you should have said so. When I think about
: oversensitivity to touch in the context of autism, I think about kids
: who can hardly bear to wear clothes.
And that's because you're thinking of Kanner's Syndrome or something
very close to it.
And how 'vulgar' should I make this in a 'public setting,' Dave?
: > DR: I hope you are more forthcoming with the evidence when you speak to
: > DR: them than you have been with us.
: >
: > If none of 'you' will even so much as crack open a copy of _Profile of a
: > Prodigy_ and read along with me, then I don't think 'you'll' understand
: > what I have to say.
: The two things that are in that book which fall most obviously under a
: description of autistic spectrum are Fischer's being "anti-social" and
: having a "splinter skill" of chess. If you had left it at that, I
: probably wouldn't have noticed your post, let alone followed it up.
: It was all the things you mentioned like "fear of eyes", fear of
: "helicopters", "fear of touch", "no friends", "photosensitivity" and
: so on that attracted my attention. If that was all for real, I wanted
: to hear more.
His mother's concern over his behavior wasn't of any interest to you?
Odd...
His lack of childhood friends wasn't of interest? But I already quoted
that section...
His fear of touch...well, I suggested earlier that he never had what
used to be termed 'mature sexual love' with a woman. These things *do*
start getting difficult to discuss in public, particularly when so few
chessplayers even know what I mean by the term. (The married men and
those with some sexual interest/experience *do* know what I'm talkig
about when I discuss it with them, but who wishes to do that here)
You're familiar with the two *best* examples of why self-report tests
are worthless? One concerns the drinking habits of Jews and Irish, while
the other concerns how men and women respond to hardcore pornography.
Shall we talk this over in email or do you just wish to prove a point that
you're not *ever* going to be able to do here?
Cheers All,
Steve
D.Regis
sma...@netcom.com writes:
> re. eye contact
> Dave, you have the thing in front of you...
I couldn't find anything, could you quote the paragraph?
> DR: Was your citation of DSM-IV a red herring, too?
>
> Of course not...
So, which bits of DSM-IV fit Fischer? Your original post suggested it
would be obvious to any lay person.
> Yes, I'm practically certain he does have photosensitivity.
>
Excellent! What persuades you?
...
> Shall we talk this over in email or do you just wish to prove a point that
> you're not *ever* going to be able to do here?
You're the one making the points, I'd like to see some beef. E-mail
or here, I don't mind.
You have shown me many impressive things over the last few days,
Steve: the breadth of your experience in many fields, the diligence of
your research, your knowledge of the chess community and of Indian
reservations, even how fast you can type, but you have not shown me
what I thought you were so sure of:
there is enough evidence of Fischer's "fear of eyes",
"photosensitivity", "fear of touch" and "no friends" to support a
diagnosis of an "autistic spectrum disorder" under "DSM-IV".
It may be what you really meant was a lesser claim:
"good visual focus, little/no sex life and few friends, which might
fit in with new research which has emerged since publication of DSM-IV"
- but that's a long way from the sorts of things I thought you were
saying. Under another thread, you wrote:
"Fischer's fear of eyes is well-known...sometimes they were human
eyes, sometimes they were Tal's eyes, ..."
That was the post that really hooked me. You can imagine how
interesting that sort of claim is, and how easy I thought it would be
to support. Your prodigious typing since has only made me suspicious
that you were overstating in your original claims.
AlanOmega
I have never read such nonsense as that which has been posted in the last few
weeks about Fischer and his childhood. No one -- I did miss Sam Sloan's
response -- who knew Fischer has contributed am article. Evidence of autism
and other disorders are conjured up by quotes from books only, books written by
authors who "knew" Fischer superficially only.
I've known Bobby since he was seven, from the first day he entered the
Manhattan Chess Club. He had a great interest in chess, just as my grandson
has a great interest in baseball, and baseball statistics. Though he had no
other outside interests, he was not *obsessive* about chess. He spent much
time studying, but not all his time. He had many friends and spent time with
them, not playing chess alone. He always remembered those he knew as a
youngster and would always say hello if he saw them on the street, even if the
acquaintance had not seen him first. Please note I said "acquaintance," not
bosom buddy. Even though Fischer is "crazy" today, I'd bet he'd still act the
same if he saw someone he knew.
I'm just sick of what I've been reading and finally surrended to my feelings to
post this short message. As far as Fischer and Barbra Streisand -- they both
attended Erasmus High School. End of story. Do any of you think either of
them was an American icon in those days?
Al
*****************************************************************************
Al Omega
Director: Papa Joey's Gay Nineties Ice Cream and Funeral Parlor
Rolf Tueschen
and...@see.sig wrote:
>On 03 May 1998 16:03:42 GMT, alan...@aol.com (AlanOmega) wrote:
>>:|I have never read such nonsense as that which has been posted in the last few
>>:|weeks about Fischer and his childhood. No one -- I did miss Sam Sloan's
>[......snipped a bunch of emotional drivel......]
>...and your knowledge about Asperger's is.....ZERO?
Please stop it.
Please read my comment in the other threat about the same topic.
I feel for you and your son. I respect your experience as an expert of
whatever.
But please stop to make a clown out of yourself by posting
long-distance diagnoses about prominent people. I can't see the
justification from your status as expert. As expert you should
preferably shut up or talk about your *own* cases. But then you might
feel more responsibility and care, no?
Greetings and hoping that you might understand
Rolf Tueschen
>Best,
>Andrew
>--
> Andrew J. Rózsa
>Birmingham, Alabama, USA
><mailto:ro...@pobox.com>
Steve Mayer
AlanOmega (alan...@aol.com) wrote:
: Even though Fischer is "crazy" today, I'd bet he'd still act the
: same if he saw someone he knew.
Sure, Fischer became schizophrenic or
something...a good 5-10 years past when one would typically expect to see it.
Some questions that you *might* be able to answer:
1) Was RJF's father named, in fact, Fischer, or was this an alias? (For
instance, 'Jim Nielsen' aka Nils Bohr.)
2) I gather that Regina lived in Portland, Oregon during the
war. Was 'Gerard Fischer' stationed there or L.A. or Chicago or in the
American southwest?
3) Brady is obscure as to when the divorce occurred...it would seem to
have been very close to VE day.
: I'm just sick of what I've been reading and finally surrended to my feelings to
: post this short message. As far as Fischer and Barbra Streisand -- they both
: attended Erasmus High School. End of story. Do any of you think either of
: them was an American icon in those days?
No, but I'm not sure what your point is. You're not saying that Fischer
brought her to the New York clubs, are you?
-Steve
Rolf Tueschen
and...@see.sig wrote:
>On 3 May 1998 22:06:08 GMT, TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de
>>:|But please stop to make a clown out of yourself by posting
>>:|long-distance diagnoses about prominent people. I can't see the
>>:|justification from your status as expert. As expert you should
>>:|preferably shut up or talk about your *own* cases. But then you might
>>:|feel more responsibility and care, no?
>>:|
>This is an exception.
And I thank you because I'm still hoping that you might understand
what I wanted to say in possibly weak English ...
>As a rule I do not reply to ad hominem attacks. I do not call people
>clowns or fools,
I will try to prove you wrong in your assumption that I attacked you
ad hominem and that I called you a fool.
First of all I wrote that you'd made a clown (...) by *p-o-s-t-i-n-g*
(...). You yourself.
How could a reminder for international standards of decency and
scientific soundness be an offense/ ad hominem or whatever worse?
Second. Let's analyse what you did *p- o- s- t*. See below.
>especially when my knowledge in the area of their of
>expertise is non-existent.
Excuse me, if I tell you something completely new ...
I don't need a degree in medicine, psychiatry or psychology to be able
to understand that the *p-o-s-t-i-n-g in a usenet newsgroup* of
long-distance analysis with medical, psychiatric diagnoses about
actually living people is an offense to all scientific standards, in
case of medical experts an offense against the oath of Hippokrates and
for all an offense against the private sphere of human people and the
security/ safety (expr.?) of personal data.
>Forensic psychology and the ability to reconstruct personality or the
>psychological profiles of people, whether dead or alive, especially
>those on whom there is a significant amount of biographical data, are
>scientific endeavors.
You're telling me. But what *you* did is more. You p-o-s-t-e-d it
into a usenet newsgroup.
Methinks you confuse the levels.
If you had a criminal, a convicted murderer, then you might analyse
and write as much as you wanted. I grew up myself with the wonderful
report of Capote's In Cold Blood. But note that 'innocent until proven
guilty' is a famous value.
What happens if the defendant was completely innocent and you had
p-o-s-t-e-d the importance of facts like the mother was a prostitute
and so on?!
But in case of Fischer, where the public treatment of the personal
sphere seemed to be part of the problem, you are right in the middle
of Fischer's personal problems with your p-o-s-t-i-n-g-s of an
expert (I don't doubt your status at all) into a laymen's group.
You seem to be completely unaware of the fact that you p-o-s-t-e-d
details or reconstructed psychological judgements and hereby
influenced the public view of Fischer as a psychiatric case ...
I don't reject the possible "scientific" value of such working
hypotheses, but you are not allowed to p-o-s-t it as fact.
Point is that among laymen, in the public in general, the known
standards of science are completely unknown.
In case of criminals you might analyse the persons as insects but who
gave you the idea to p-o-s-t psychiatric diagnoses about a
chessplayer who did no harm to nobody (but himself probably)?
It might sound hard but let's figure out what you might do if your son
were a homosexual or a bed-wetter, would you then "out" all the
prominent gays and bed-wetters?
Let's take a look into the future ...
In ten years you then might p-o-s-t worldwide the results of your
genes-analysis that my nephew should become a covert transsexual?
Because *I* was a "famous" usenet author?
Excuse me, but I would have preferred that you might have understood
before. Let the laymen p-o-s-t their assumptions. But not you as an
expert. You should protect the scientific standards and the private
sphere of the concerned "victims". Or become a jounalist and write for
the 'yellow press'.
So I apologize for all personal reference but I had to go even further
in my critiques. I'm a psychologist myself.
AlanOmega
In article <354e2387....@news.mindspring.com>, and...@see.sig writes:
>On 3 May 1998 22:06:08 GMT, TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de
>
>>:|But please stop to make a clown out of yourself by posting
>>:|long-distance diagnoses about prominent people. I can't see the
>>:|justification from your status as expert. As expert you should
>>:|preferably shut up or talk about your *own* cases. But then you might
>>:|feel more responsibility and care, no?
>>:|
>
>This is an exception.
>
>As a rule I do not reply to ad hominem attacks. I do not call people
>clowns or fools, especially when my knowledge in the area of their of
>expertise is non-existent.
>
>Forensic psychology and the ability to reconstruct personality or the
>psychological profiles of people, whether dead or alive, especially
>those on whom there is a significant amount of biographical data, are
>scientific endeavors.
>
>Best,
>
>Andrew
This is true, but when there are still people alive who can describe, first
hand, the behavior of the analysand, it's foolish to go great lengths coming up
with a profile based on second-hand sources.
AlanOmega
In article <smayerEs...@netcom.com>, sma...@netcom.com (Steve Mayer)
writes:
>AlanOmega (alan...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Even though Fischer is "crazy" today, I'd bet he'd still act the
>: same if he saw someone he knew.
>
> Sure, Fischer became schizophrenic or
>something...a good 5-10 years past when one would typically expect to see it.
>
> Some questions that you *might* be able to answer:
>
> 1) Was RJF's father named, in fact, Fischer, or was this an alias? (For
>instance, 'Jim Nielsen' aka Nils Bohr.)
His father was named Fischer, according to Fischer.
> 2) I gather that Regina lived in Portland, Oregon during the
>war. Was 'Gerard Fischer' stationed there or L.A. or Chicago or in the
>American southwest?
This subject was never brought up.
> 3) Brady is obscure as to when the divorce occurred...it would seem to
>have been very close to VE day.
I never asked him when him or Regina when the date of the divorce.
>
>: I'm just sick of what I've been reading and finally surrended to my
>feelings to
>: post this short message. As far as Fischer and Barbra Streisand -- they
>both
>: attended Erasmus High School. End of story. Do any of you think either of
>: them was an American icon in those days?
>
> No, but I'm not sure what your point is. You're not saying that Fischer
>brought her to the New York clubs, are you?
My point is that Fischer was never close to Streisand, as been hinted in
several postings. If Streisand was ever in a New York chess club, it is news
to all New York chess players.
Steve Mayer
AlanOmega (alan...@aol.com) wrote:
: My point is that Fischer was never close to Streisand, as been hinted in
: several postings. If Streisand was ever in a New York chess club, it is news
: to all New York chess players.
Thank you for that info. I've been of the impression that the
'connection' was, as you suggest, a result of people thumbing through old
yearbooks and then an 'urban legend' (so to speak) spreading through the
chess community.
Regards,
Steve
Henri H. Arsenault
In article <01bd73ab$42735b20$LocalHost@Default>, "Doug" <dou...@usa.net>
wrote:
> Yes, Fischer and Evans played in their bathing suits in a swimming pool,
> they had the chess board floating on the water on a small wooden board, it
> was awesome!
>
If my fading memory is any good, Fischer was training for a match and
playing in the swimming pool was part of the training (similar to
Botvinik's training in a smoke-filled room to make it more difficult to
concentrate).
--
remove *nospam* in address for email
Henri H. Arsenault
> There *is* nothing *known* to have been *physically written* by Plato!
> So the people- there *were* many!- who copied out Plato's technical
> philosphy and maths <---- a typo or evidence of Britsih influence?
>
Socrates never wrote anything as far as is known, but this is the first
time that I have heard anyone suggest that Plato did not write his books
himself...
Henri H. Arsenault
>
> Not hearsay evidence, not 'wishful thinking,' etc., but just one damn
> source that *any peer referreed journal* in the world would *demand.*
>
Everyone has a right to his own opinion, but no one has a right to his own
facts.
Henri H. Arsenault
In article <354e2387....@news.mindspring.com>, and...@see.sig wrote:
> Forensic psychology and the ability to reconstruct personality or the
> psychological profiles of people, whether dead or alive, especially
> those on whom there is a significant amount of biographical data, are
> scientific endeavors.
>
I think that most scientists would agree that trying to diagnose diseases
from people that they have not examined themselves is not accepted
scientific procedure. This is not to say that such speculation is not
interesting, but it is not Science.
Rolf Tueschen
Thanks, that was it what I wanted to tell.
But also think of this farce if medical doctors/experts started to
post in usenet your deseases without informing you or ever having seen
you ...?
The fact that Andrew has a son with such a syndrome, and that he as
father became an expert over the years, excused his naivety but I
doubt that Andrew had understood what the real offense was in his
comments here about Fischer.
It's also NOT the main point of the own not knowing the particular
person he wrote about. That would of course suffice to make some
people smile about him. But the main point is the incredible ignorance
for the rights of someone like Fischer for the privacy of his possible
defections/illnesses.
Medical experts should try to help people. But as you can't help
people who didn't ask you for, you can't do anything good by *posting*
you ideas about them in usenet ...
For a real scientist this is so boring trivial -- and I immediately
got a positive feedback by real experts, who exactly out of the
reasons I had given, had stayed mute.
I would like to hear details about a different USA specific
interpretation of a basic human right of privacy.
Thanks again, for your post, Henri.
Greetings
Rolf Tueschen
Steve Mayer
Henri H. Arsenault (arseno@*nospam*phy.ulaval.ca) wrote:
: In article <smayerEs...@netcom.com>, sma...@netcom.com (Steve Mayer) wrote:
: > There *is* nothing *known* to have been *physically written* by Plato!
: > So the people- there *were* many!- who copied out Plato's technical
: > philosphy and maths <---- a typo or evidence of Britsih influence?
: >
: Socrates never wrote anything as far as is known, but this is the first
: time that I have heard anyone suggest that Plato did not write his books
: himself...
Well, you learn something new every day, don't you?
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Henri H. Arsenault (arseno@*nospam*phy.ulaval.ca) wrote:
: In article <smayerEs...@netcom.com>, sma...@netcom.com (Steve Mayer) wrote:
: > Not hearsay evidence, not 'wishful thinking,' etc., but just one damn
: > source that *any peer referreed journal* in the world would *demand.*
: >
: Everyone has a right to his own opinion, but no one has a right to his own
: facts.
Ah, an author who annotates his own writing and reflects upon his own
thought! I like that in a writer, as did Fischer...
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
: > Forensic psychology and the ability to reconstruct personality or the
: > psychological profiles of people, whether dead or alive, especially
: > those on whom there is a significant amount of biographical data, are
: > scientific endeavors.
: >
: I think that most scientists would agree that trying to diagnose diseases
: from people that they have not examined themselves is not accepted
: scientific procedure.
The forensic psychiatrists on the group thank you, as do medical
examiners, immunologists, anthropololgists, et al, around the world ;-)
: This is not to say that such speculation is not
: interesting, but it is not Science.
Hmmmm...was Richard Feynman a scientist? Was Darwin? I guess not ;-)
Cheers All,
Steve
Steve Mayer
Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
<snip>
: The fact that Andrew has a son with such a syndrome, and that he as
: father became an expert over the years, excused his naivety but I
: doubt that Andrew had understood what the real offense was in his
: comments here about Fischer.
Rolf, bitch to me if you're going to bitch to anyone. I have a pretty
good idea what Fischer knew about himself by no later than 1977. It
doesn't even, per se, have anything to do with his 'psyche' or 'medical
condition.'
Out of curiousity, do you know why the 'West Germans' *became* very
anti-nuclear after a decade of *favoring* the 'Western' stance in the
Cold War? As I said, just curious and wondering what is taught even
today in German Universites?
Cheers All,
Steve