Morphy Number
Jeremy Spinrad
shortest path of players such that Morphy played x, x played y,y played z, etc
with a particular player at the end of the path.
I have just realized in my research for an article on women's chess that Mrs.
Harriet Worrall might be a useful link here. Mrs. Worrall played 2 games against
Morphy, drawing one and losing one at rook odds. At the end of the 19th century,
she was playing essentially every master who came through New York and gave a
simultaneous event (she often shared a board with Frere, another participant in
the 1857 Congress).
The Brroklyn Eagle stops being available online in 1902; if someone with Gaige's
book could let me know when she died (I would also like to know when Miss Rudge
died) I would appreciate it.
Jerry Spinrad
Paul Herzman
Paul Herzman
"Jeremy Spinrad" <sp...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> wrote in message
news:cvai60$9k7$1...@news.vanderbilt.edu...
Jud McCranie
wrote:
>Some years ago, there were posts about the Morphy Number of players, that is the
>shortest path of players such that Morphy played x, x played y,y played z, etc
>with a particular player at the end of the path.
Is the Morphy number of players such as Capablanca and Lasker
available?
---
Replace you know what by j to email
Taylor Kingston
Jud McCranie wrote:
> Is the Morphy number of players such as Capablanca and Lasker
> available?
It's not hard to figure out. The chain that comes to mind for me is
that both played Tarrasch, who played Louis Paulsen, who played Morphy.
Therefore their "Morphy number" is two. There are probably other links
for them, but I don't know of any shorter (though I am open to
correction). Links through Paulsen are common for many people, because
he's one of the few Morphy opponents who continued into the era of
later 19th-century tournament play. Anderssen was the other, but
Paulsen outlived him by about 12 years.
My own link, for what it's worth, runs through the same players: I
played Bisguier (in a simul in 1965 or 1966), who played Euwe, who
played Tarrasch, who played Paulsen, who played Morphy. So my Morphy
number is 4.
Jud McCranie
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> My own link, for what it's worth, runs through the same players: I
>played Bisguier (in a simul in 1965 or 1966), who played Euwe, who
>played Tarrasch, who played Paulsen, who played Morphy. So my Morphy
>number is 4.
Doesn't that make your # 5?
Morphy 0
Paulsen 1
Tarrash 2
Euwe 3
Bisguier 4
You 5
Mine is 5 (if unofficial games count).
Taylor Kingston
Jud McCranie wrote:
> Doesn't that make your # 5?
A semantic issue. I was under the impression that the number referred
to the players between one's self and Morphy. If one defines it to
include one's self, then yes, mine is 5. Same set of players either
way.
Jud McCranie
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> A semantic issue. I was under the impression that the number referred
>to the players between one's self and Morphy.
Well, with Erdos numbers, Erdos has #0, anyone who wrote a paper with
him gets #1, everyone who wrote a paper with someone with #1 but not
#0 gets #2, etc.
Taylor Kingston
Jud McCranie wrote:
> Well, with Erdos numbers, Erdos has #0, anyone who wrote a paper with
> him gets #1, everyone who wrote a paper with someone with #1 but not
> #0 gets #2, etc.
As Marty Feldman said to Gene Wilder, "Suit yourself, I'm easy."
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
>> Well, with Erdos numbers, Erdos has #0,
>> anyone who wrote a paper with
>> him gets #1, everyone who wrote a paper
>> with someone with #1 but not
>> #0 gets #2, etc.
Indeed. But
Taylor Kingston responds:
> As Marty Feldman said to Gene Wilder,
> "Suit yourself, I'm easy."
The two definitions are not equally good, it's not
a matter of individual preference only.
The common way (as in Erdos number) is more logical.
Indeed, according to your, Taylor, method, players
who played Morphy would have the same number
as Morphy -- 0. And this sounds unsatisfactory.
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
> Is the Morphy number of players such as
> Capablanca and Lasker available?
I don't know but it should be not too difficult
to establish (for those who etc.)
Let me just remind about the sequences:
Morphy-->Anderssen-->Steinitz
Yes, Morphy and Steinitz were peers but they
had never play a single game, what a pity.
We may extend the above:
Morphy-->Anderssen-->Steinitz-->Marshall
since Marshall played an informal game,
as a promising youngster, with Steinitz.
Young Marshall already tried to trap Steinitz
but steinitz saw through it and won :-)
We see that Lasker's number is at most 3
(like Marshall's). However, as a young man,
Lasker played in the USA, won a match
against Showalter. it is very likely that
Lasker played against someone who had
Morphy number 1 (i.e. who played Morphy).
What is the Morphy number of international
masters: Igor Ivanov and Ed Formanek?
Regards,
Wlod
Jud McCranie
<senn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> it is very likely that
>Lasker played against someone who had
>Morphy number 1 (i.e. who played Morphy).
If that is true, it gets my Morphy number down to 4.
Taylor Kingston
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) wrote:
> it is very likely that
> Lasker played against someone who had
> Morphy number 1 (i.e. who played Morphy).
Actually he did, and I should have remembered it. Lasker played a
match with Henry Bird in 1890. That gives him a Morphy number one less
than Capablanca's.
Jeremy Spinrad
found such a game.
Jerry Spinrad
Taylor Kingston
> The common way (as in Erdos number) is more logical.
Fine, no argument from me, as I already made clear.
David Richerby
>> Jud McCranie wrote:
>>> Well, with Erdos numbers, Erdos has #0, anyone who wrote a paper with
>>> him gets #1, everyone who wrote a paper with someone with #1 but not
>>> #0 gets #2, etc.
>>
>
> The two definitions are not equally good, it's not a matter of
> individual preference only.
>
> The common way (as in Erdos number) is more logical. Indeed, according
> to your, Taylor, method, players who played Morphy would have the same
> number as Morphy -- 0. And this sounds unsatisfactory.
Or Morphy's number is undefined. It's not clear that he really needs a
Morphy number. :-)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Addictive Whisky (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ single-malt whisky but you can never
put it down!
Taylor Kingston
Jeremy Spinrad wrote:
> I would be willing to bet that Mrs. Worrall played Lasker, but I have
not yet
> found such a game.
No one named Worrall is listed in the index of "The Collected Games
of Emanuel Lasker" by Ken Whyld (The Chess Player, 1998). Still, she
might have played him in a simul game now lost.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
> Lasker played a match with Henry
> Bird in 1890. That gives him a Morphy
> number one less than Capablanca's.
Great! Now we have:
Morphy-->Bird-->Lasker-->Botvinnik
Also, I imagine that Kasparov, being
taught by Botvinnik, played him casual
games, at least one? In which case
Kasparov number would be 4, Igor
Ivanov's 5 or less, and mine 6 or less :-)
However, since Igor played a lot on the
American continent, he may have a
more direct line to Morphy than via
Kasparov. I also wonder, selfishly :-),
about Ed Formanek, who used to be
among the top 50 in the USA and
sometimes even better than that.
Regards,
Wlod
Jud McCranie
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> Actually he did, and I should have remembered it. Lasker played a
>match with Henry Bird in 1890. That gives him a Morphy number one less
>than Capablanca's.
Then that gives me a Morphy number of 4 and an Erdos number of 3,
counting Morphy as 0 and Erdos as 0.
My (Morphy number + Erdos number) = 7. That's quite small considering
how far removed I consider myself from Morphy and Erdos, but part of
the point is how short connections tend to be.
Taylor Kingston
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) wrote:
> What is the Morphy number of international
> masters: Igor Ivanov and Ed Formanek?
Surprisingly low, because both can link through Emanuel Lasker. A
quick search of a database and the Whyld book turned up these results:
Igor Ivanov:
played Sammy Reshevsky (Lone Pine 1981),
who played Lasker (Nottingham 1936),
who played Henry Bird (match, Liverpool, 1890),
who played Morphy (various games, London, 1858).
Edward Formanek:
played Arnold Denker (US Open 1972, Lone Pine 1977)
who played Lasker (simul, Manhattan CC, NY, 1938)
who played Bird,
who played Morphy.
Formanek can also link through Reshevsky (Lone Pine 1978). Probably
both can link in other ways.
Jeremy Spinrad
which she played Morphy. Haven't found a game with Lasker, however.
Jerry Spinrad
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Thank you :-) Thus my Morphy number is 5,
and I m connected to Morphy in several ways.
Long live trivia!!! :-)
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
> Then that gives me a Morphy number of 4
> and an Erdos number of 3, [...]
>
> My (Morphy number + Erdos number) = 7.
> That's quite small considering how far removed
> I consider myself from Morphy and Erdos, but
> part of the point is how short connections tend
> to be.
Mine total is also
7 = 2 (Erdos) + 5 (Morphy)
However, informally (:-) I am one of very few people
who have also Erdos number = -1 (negative 1), since
Erdos had invited me to publish a joint paper and
(due to certain circumstances) I had declined. BTW,
I admire Erdos, I always did! (don't get a wrong
impression).
The holy number 7 is nice, but Ed Formanek's 6
is still nicer: 6 = 2 (Erdos) + 4 (Morphy).
Regards,
Wlod
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
> Some years ago, there were posts about
> the Morphy Number of players, [...]
What is your own Morphy number?
I've glanced at the list of Erdos number \< 2
holders, and I see there Jeremy P. Spinrad
(three times, with three different coauthors
of number 1). Are you the one? Then
your total Erdos+Morphy number would be of
extra interest.
*****
A curiosity: who are the chess players
who have a lower Morphy number than
a world champion older than them?
For instance, there should be players
in the USA, who are younger than Karpov
but have a lower Morphy number.
Regards,
Wlod
Hans Jørgen Lassen
4!
I twice played Holger Norman Hansen (Copenhagen, 1980's)
who played Lasker (simul, Copenhagen 1927)
who played Bird
who played Morphy.
HansJ
Taylor Kingston
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) wrote:
> A curiosity: who are the chess players
> who have a lower Morphy number than
> a world champion older than them?
> For instance, there should be players
> in the USA, who are younger than Karpov
> but have a lower Morphy number.
I would tend to doubt it, at least in Karpov's case. Karpov played
Reshevsky (Skopje 1976) - that puts him on the
Reshevsky-Lasker-Bird-Morphy fast track. Kasparov, I would think, can
get to the same link, starting with Botvinnik, who also played Lasker
at Nottingham 1936. To get a shorter link, it appears one would have
had to play Lasker, who died in 1941.
However, what you describe may be true for Kramnik, or the recent
FIDE champions: Anand, Khalifman, Ponomariov, etc. I haven't tried to
find their Morphy numbers. Given the longevity of Reshevsky, Bisguier,
Denker and other American masters with a Morphy number = 4, there must
be thousands of young Americans with a number = 5.
Jeremy Spinrad
simuls, I have played Lev Alburt and Sam Palatnik among GMs. In tournaments, I
have played a couple of IMs, but not any very old ones (the most common opponent
there is Ron Burnett). I have been playing tournament chess since the 1970s, but
my best connections probably would be via old experts who are now dead, eg
Garfinkel, who I played while I was in college. I believe I played Hanon Russell
around the same time, if his number is known. I doubt that I will ever get my
Morphy number down as low as my Erdos number. I believe I played an informal game
with Bob Coveyou, an oldtimer who was the first official champion of Tennessee in
1947, when he was on sabbatical and worked with my father. I would imagine I have
some good connections through him, but they would be hard to find.
Jerry Spinrad
Taylor Kingston
Jeremy Spinrad wrote:
> I do not know my Morphy number. If we count
> simuls, I have played Lev Alburt and Sam Palatnik among GMs.
> around the same time, if his number is known.
Alburt played Reshevsky at least twice (1981 US Ch, Reykjavik 1986).
Hanon Russell worked with Reshevsky in his late years, and I would
think it likely they played each other. Either way, you get a 5.
Dr A. N. Walker
Taylor Kingston <tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> [...] To get a shorter link, it appears one would have
>had to play Lasker, who died in 1941.
Lasker played relatively little chess, despite the long
career. Bird played into the 20thC, and must have played great
swathes of famous and less-famous players. He must surely have
played Mieses, who was active until after WW2? And if not, he
must nevertheless have played dozens of young British players in
~1900, some of whom will have been the old codgers of my early
days. So we have a link Morphy -> Bird -> lots of people up to
after WW2 [even up to say 1960], which should branch in no more
than two further steps to almost every serious UK player today.
IOW, given that there must now be no-one still playing
with a MN of 2, the best MNs around will be a handful of elderly
3's; then rather a lot of 4's, either themselves relatively
experienced or else young but lucky to have met a 3; then a huge
glob of 5's; and a fair number of active 6's [who have, perhaps,
never played outside their club or local area], followed by the
outliers.
I think the numbers become "interesting", except for
personal vanity, only if the games are restricted to serious
master-level games [with some fairly definite rules]. But that
excludes those of us who have never played at that level.
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
a...@maths.nott.ac.uk
Taylor Kingston
Hans Jørgen Lassen wrote:
> I think these things are quite fun.
I quite agree. Therefore I'm posting this to help readers determine
their own Morphy numbers. For the average player, the shortest link is
likely to be through a series of masters who had long careers. Below,
starting with Morphy himself (Morphy Number = 0), I list some prominent
players fitting that description, who all link to Morphy by actual
chess play in some way. If you have played one or more of them, just
add one to his Morphy Number to determine your own.
0. Paul Charles Morphy (1837-1884)
1. Louis Paulsen (1833-1891, played Morphy New York 1857)
Adolf Anderssen (1818-1879, various games, Paris 1858)
Henry Edward Bird (1830-1908, offhand games, London 1858)
Rev. John Owen (1827-1901, various games, England 1858)
2. Szymon Winawer (1838-1920, various w/ Anderssen 1870-1878)
Joseph Henry Blackburne (1841-1924, various w/ Anderssen 1862-1878)
Amos Burn (1848-1925; Paulsen, Frankfurt 1887; various w/ Owen)
Siegbert Tarrasch (1862-1934, Paulsen, Frankfurt 1877; Bird,
Hastings 1895)
Jacques Mieses (1865-1954, Bird, Hastings 1895)
Emanuel Lasker (1868-1941, match w/ Bird 1890)
David Janowski (1868-1927, Bird, Hastings 1895)
3. Alexander Alekhine (all above #2s but Winawer)
J.R. Capablanca (all above #2s but Winawer)
Max Euwe (Tarrasch, Lasker)
Frank Marshall (all above #2s)
Efim Bogolyubov (Tarrasch, Mieses, Janowski, Lasker)
Samuel Reshevsky (Janowski, NY 1922; Lasker, Nottingham 1936)
Reuben Fine (Lasker, Nottingham 1936)
Mikhail Botvinnik (Lasker, Moscow 1935 & 1936, Nottingham 1936)
Ossip Bernstein (Blackburne, Burn)
Sir George Thomas (Tarrasch, Lasker, Mieses)
Salo Flohr (Lasker, Zürich 1934)
Arnold Denker (Lasker, simul 1938)
Edward Lasker (Janowski and Em. Lasker, New York 1924)
Norman T. Whitaker (Janowski, Atlantic City 1921)
Andor Lilienthal (Lasker, Moscow 1936)
Erich Eliskases (Lasker, Moscow 1936)
Friedrich Sämisch (Lasker, Moscow 1925)
4. Robert J. Fischer (Euwe, Reshevsky, Fine, Botvinnik)
Vasily Smyslov (Bernstein, Euwe, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Mikhail Tal (Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Tigran Petrosian (Euwe, Flohr, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Boris Spassky (Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Flohr)
Anatoly Karpov (Reshevsky, Botvinnik?)
Garry Kasparov (assuming he played Botvinnik)
Paul Keres (Capablanca, Alekhine, Euwe et al)
Viktor Korchnoi (Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
David Bronstein (Bernstein, Euwe, Botvinnik)
Bent Larsen (Euwe, Munich Ol 1958)
Arthur Bisguier (Euwe, Reshevsky)
Pal Benko (Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
William Lombardy (Reshevsky)
Miguel Najdorf (Bernstein, Capablanca, Euwe, Botvinnik)
George Koltanowski (Lilienthal, Sitges 1934)
Abe Yanofsky (Botvinnik, Euwe, Flohr, Bernstein, Denker)
Jan Timman (Reshevsky, Skopje 1976)
Laszlo Szabo (Bernstein, Euwe, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine)
Svetozar Gligoric (Bernstein, Euwe, Flohr, Botvinnik, Bogolyubov)
Vlastimil Hort (Flohr, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Robert Hübner (Reshevsky)
Lubomir Ljubojevic (Reshevsky)
Tony Miles (Reshevsky)
Lajos Portisch (Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Yasser Seirawan (Reshevsky)
Nigel Short (Reshevsky)
Mark Taimanov (Euwe, Flohr, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Efim Geller (Euwe, Flohr, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Rafael Vaganian (Reshevsky)
Ulf Andersson (Reshevsky)
Yuri Averbakh (Euwe, Flohr, Botvinnik, Reshevsky)
Alexander Beliavsky (Reshevsky)
Semyon Furman (Flohr, Botvinnik)
5. Viswanathan Anand (Smyslov, Korchnoi, Karpov, Tal etc.)
Vladimir Kramnik (Miles, Korchnoi et al)
Boris Gelfand (Korchnoi, Spassky et al)
Vasily Ivanchuk (Smyslov, Gligoric, Korchnoi et al)
Gata Kamsky (Smyslov, Korchnoi, Karpov et al)
Predrag Nikolic (Smyslov, Gligoric et al)
John Nunn (Smyslov, Gligoric et al)
Valery Salov (Smyslov, Gligoric et al)
Jonathan Speelman (Szabo, Smyslov et al)
Artur Yusupov (Smyslov, Gligoric et al)
Alexander Khalifman (Karpov)
Ruslan Ponomariov (Gligoric, Korchnoi et al)
Peter Leko (Karpov)
Alexei Shirov (Gligoric)
Michael Adams (Miles, Short et al)
Taylor Kingston (Benko, Bisguier, Lombardy)
The above is of course only a very partial list -- since this kind of
thing expands exponentially the number of players becomes huge after
very few levels. Neither does it list all possible links for any given
player (but all one needs is one link). And it is based on rather
cursory research, so I make no claim that it is perfectly accurate.
However, it should help some readers determine their own Morphy Number.
Taylor Kingston
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
Excellent compilation. I've been trying to move people
up the ladder, with little success.
But I recall from one of Koltanowski's books that he
playes a tournament game with Dr Tarrasch, which
promotes him to a three.
Another possible source of threes would be Jackson
Showalter. He was a two, and was playing chess in
the US until at least 1926, mostly in the Western
open. He lived until 1935.
Bird and Sir George Thomas overlapped for quite a while.
They may well have played offhand games, though Thomas
didn't play much tournament chess in his youth.
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
zdrakec
Bisguier, also in a simul!
Cheers,
zdrakec
Taylor Kingston
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> Excellent compilation. I've been trying to move people
> up the ladder, with little success.
Well, it's just based a few sources I had handy. I'm sure further
research would prompt some revisions.
> But I recall from one of Koltanowski's books that he
> playes a tournament game with Dr Tarrasch, which
> promotes him to a three.
Koltanowski may well have played Tarrasch, and perhaps Lasker, Mieses
or Janowski, but I have nothing to confirm it. I got his link to
Lilienthal from his book "Chessnicdotes." He would also link, I
believe, through Alekhine, Fine, and many other players of the 1930s.
If he did play Tarrasch, it bumps a lot of people up to 4, since Kolty
played many simuls over his long life.
> Another possible source of threes would be Jackson
> Showalter. He was a two, and was playing chess in
> the US until at least 1926, mostly in the Western
> open. He lived until 1935.
True, Showalter played Bird at New York 1889, so he's a 2. But my
crummy databases have almost nothing on him past 1916: only his game
with Carlos Torre at Chicago 1926, which is a dead end since that was
Torre's last tournament, and Torre was already a 3 from playing
Lasker, Janowski and Mieses. It gives Whitaker another link, since he
played Showalter in 1916 and 1918.
> Bird and Sir George Thomas overlapped for quite a while.
> They may well have played offhand games, though Thomas
> didn't play much tournament chess in his youth.
I can't find anything showing that Thomas played Bird, but it seems
plausible. Thomas was about 27 when Bird died.
Taylor Kingston
Dr A. N. Walker wrote:
> Bird played into the 20thC, and must have played great
> swathes of famous and less-famous players. He must surely have
> played Mieses, who was active until after WW2?
Dr. Walker makes a good point about Jacques Mieses. Looking over the
data, Mieses seems to have had the longest active career of any
important player with an early link to Morphy. Therefore it seems most
likely that we will find a living person with Morphy Number of 3 among
his opponents. Checking various sources, I come up with this:
Mieses played Louis Paulsen (Breslau 1889) and Henry Bird (Hastings
1895), who both played Morphy. Therefore Mieses' MN = 2, with two
links.
Young or long-lived opponents from Mieses' later career:
Philip Stuart Milner-Barry, England, 1906-1995 (Margate 1935)
Ernst Ludwig Klein, Austria/England, 1910-? (Bournemouth 1939)
Paul Devos, Belgium, 1911-1981 (Hastings 1945-46)
Lodewijk Prins, Holland, 1913-1999 (Hastings 1945-46)
Martin Christoffel, Switzerland, 1922-2001 (Hastings 1945-46)
Arnold Denker, USA, 1914-2005 (Hastings 1945-46)
Arturo Pomar, Spain, born 1931 (match, London 1946)
Various sources give Mieses' last tournament as either Stockholm
1948, Hastings 1949-50, or the 1953 London Blitz Championship. Besides
Gaige's "Checklist 1849-1950" saying Gosta Stoltz (1904-1963) won
at Stockholm, I have nothing about Mieses' opponents at these events,
nor can I verify whether he actually did play. Also I cannot determine
if Ernst Klein is still living.
Anyway, unless they have very recently passed on, it appears we have
at least two living players with MN = 3: Pomar, and Andor Lilienthal
(born 1911), who played Lasker at Moscow 1936. Given Mieses' love for
chess, it seems likely there are others still living who played him and
therefore also have an MN of 3.
Given the late GM Denker's long life, and his involvement with
youngsters, it also likely that we have a lot of young American players
with an MN of 4.
Jud McCranie
wrote:
> IOW, given that there must now be no-one still playing
>with a MN of 2, the best MNs around will be a handful of elderly
>3's; then rather a lot of 4's, ...
It would probably be reasonably easy to compile a list of the people
with small numbers from the game databases available, if they are
complete enough.
Jud McCranie
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> Given the late GM Denker's long life, and his involvement with
>youngsters, it also likely that we have a lot of young American players
>with an MN of 4.
Norman Whitaker had MN 3, by playing Em. Laskar, and he had a long
life and played until near the end. That's my link.
Taylor Kingston
Jud McCranie wrote:
> Norman Whitaker had MN 3, by playing Em. Laskar, and he had a long
> life and played until near the end. That's my link.
True, Whitaker's MN was 3, as I already noted by citing his links
through Showalter and Janowski. Checking Hilbert's "Shady Side" I see
that Whitaker played Lasker in a simul, 16 November 1907, Mercantile
Library, Philadelphia. So he has at least three links that give him an
MN of 3.
Whitaker continued to play until not long before his death in 1975,
thus I am sure many people have a Morphy Number of 4 through him. In
fact, I may have a link myself, one step further removed, through his
associate John Alexander, whom I played in San Diego in the mid-1960s.
However, that does not decrease my MN of 5 through Benko, Bisguier or
Lombardy.
Jud McCranie
<tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> True, Whitaker's MN was 3, as I already noted by citing his links
>through Showalter and Janowski.
I must have missed that message.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
> That is the same Jerry Spinrad.
How nice! :-)
Best regards,
Wlod
Jud McCranie
wrote:
>That is the same Jerry Spinrad.
And I'm sure it is the same Jerry Spinrad that I met at a tournament
in Atlanta and briefly discussed theoretical C.S., and who was wearing
a t-shirt from the school I had been attending, which was his sister's
school.
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> > Excellent compilation. I've been trying to move people
> > up the ladder, with little success.
>
> Well, it's just based a few sources I had handy. I'm sure further
> research would prompt some revisions.
Well, clearly we can't revise ones into zeros. And
I think it's clear that no twos can turn out to be
ones. The mortality is such that I couldn't find
any plausible threes who might be twos. So I concentrated
on turning fours into threes, and even there didn't
find much.
It's a pretty solid list, I think.
>
> > But I recall from one of Koltanowski's books that he
> > playes a tournament game with Dr Tarrasch, which
> > promotes him to a three.
>
> Koltanowski may well have played Tarrasch, and perhaps Lasker, Mieses
> or Janowski, but I have nothing to confirm it.
The chessgames.com site gives the Kolty-Tarrasch game, from
the mid 1920s.
I know that they don't have all games, but they have quite
a few. Mieses was fairly active in the 1930s, but doesn't
seem to have played any of the number four group. It's
a bit unlucky that he didn't play Najdorf, Szabo, Keres,
Reshevsky, etc. Somewhere I have a complete set of
Hastings crosstables for the era. I think he played in
some of those.
> True, Showalter played Bird at New York 1889, so he's a 2. But my
> crummy databases have almost nothing on him past 1916: only his game
> with Carlos Torre at Chicago 1926,
I have inexcusably failed to buy any of the crosstable
books available. If anyone has the western open crosstables
for the late 1920s up to 1935 we might find more threes.
While searching for Showalter I found that his home town
has him listed as world chess champion.
> I can't find anything showing that Thomas played Bird, but it seems
> plausible. Thomas was about 27 when Bird died.
I'm guessing it would have to be in an offhand game, so
recorded only in someone's memoirs. Though you'd think
that Thomas in his teen years must have played at a
simul of Bird's. Apparently Bird was short of cash at
this time and I doubt he'd have overlooked this source
of income.
Dr A. N. Walker
Taylor Kingston <tkin...@chittenden.com> wrote:
> [...] For the average player, the shortest link is
>likely to be through a series of masters who had long careers.
Well, only if only master games are to be allowed [in which
case, amateurs claiming links through random low-grade tournament
games are SOL, and those of us who are not masters are not linked
at all]. Otherwise, it is more likely to be through long-lived
local players.
A couple of years ago, Alfred Lenton had a game published
on Ceefax; he was well into his 90s, still playing a mean game in
his local league, having been of near-master standard seventy years
ago. I don't know whether he then played any of the *masters* who
had played Bird, but he must surely have played county matches and
league matches against many of the older players then around, some
of whom will have been playing league chess, club championships and
similar in the 1890s. If any of *them* played Bird, which seems
very likely, then there are hundreds of ordinary club players [inc
me] within striking range of Leicester with a MN of 4 through Mr
Lenton, some of them still teenagers.
Today, Mr Lenton is unusual. But a decade or so ago, there
were perhaps a hundred players still active in the UK who had been
playing pre-war; and there are *still* hundreds who were playing
in 1950 -- recent enough to have perhaps played Mieses in some club
or league game soon after the war. And in 1950 there will have been
hundreds who survived from the Bird era. Once you open it up to
non-masters, I don't know how you would even begin to find out who
had played whom. I almost certainly have a MN of 4; I could nominate
a dozen people I have played who almost certainly have a MN of 3 and
another dozen who may well have; but unless one of the better-known
ones turns out to be "established" by appearing in a list, it will
remain conjecture in the absence of searchable lists of all games
played in local leagues, club championships, etc.
Taylor Kingston
Dr A. N. Walker wrote:
> case, amateurs claiming links through random low-grade tournament
> games are SOL, and those of us who are not masters are not linked
> at all].
For me, an important point, and probably the major pleasure, of
figuring out a Morphy Number is that it allows the great mass of
mediocre amateurs (such as myself) to feel connected to important chess
history. Therefore I'm willing to accept pretty much any actual chess
game - simul, blindfold, correspondence, blitz, whatever - as a
link in a chain to Morphy. Morphy himself would play virtually anyone
who asked him, so I prefer to be equally democratic in this regard.
> I almost certainly have a MN of 4; I could nominate
> a dozen people I have played who almost certainly have a MN of 3 and
> another dozen who may well have ...
As I noted in my reply to your first post in this thread, I've been
able to determine with certainty only one living person with MN = 3, GM
Arturo Pomar of Spain, the chain being Pomar-Mieses-Bird-Morphy. But I
think it likely there are more, especially in England where Mieses
spent his last days.
Jeremy Spinrad
advanced age, and played many talented junior players. This will make quite a
long link someday.
I remember seeing that Winston Churchill reminisced after WWII about how his
grandfather told him about the lighting of fires to celebrate the victory of
Waterloo. A lifetime can link some pretty distant events, if the timing is right.
Jerry Spinrad
Kevin Croxen
>
>
> As I noted in my reply to your first post in this thread, I've been
> able to determine with certainty only one living person with MN = 3, GM
> Arturo Pomar of Spain, the chain being Pomar-Mieses-Bird-Morphy. But I
> think it likely there are more, especially in England where Mieses
> spent his last days.
>
Lilienthal: Lasker-Bird-Morphy.
Taylor Kingston
Kevin Croxen wrote:
> Lilienthal: Lasker-Bird-Morphy.
Oops, yes. I mentioned Lilienthal earlier, then forgot about him. So
we have at least two MN 3's.
Jeremy Spinrad
but a funny coincidence. G.A. Thomas was also famous as a badminton player, and
strangely enough beat a player named T.H.E. Bird (the initials of "our" Bird are
HE). No luck on an HE Bird vs GA Thomas chess game, however.
Jerry Spinrad
Taylor Kingston
Jeremy Spinrad wrote:
> I tried to look up Bird vs Thomas, which would reduce Morphy numbers.
No luck,
> but a funny coincidence. G.A. Thomas was also famous as a badminton
player, and
> strangely enough beat a player named T.H.E. Bird (the initials of
"our" Bird are
> HE).
A further coincidence, of admittedly limited relevance: in the 1960s
there was a TV show, "T.H.E. Cat," which starred Robert Loggia as a
cat-burglar employed by the police, if I remember correctly. "T.H.E."
stood for Thomas Hewitt Edward.
Had the two families been united by marriage, we might have seen a
T.H.E. Cat-Bird, assuming the historical antipathy between avians and
felines could have been overcome.
Taylor Kingston
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> I have inexcusably failed to buy any of the crosstable
> books available. If anyone has the western open crosstables
> for the late 1920s up to 1935 we might find more threes.
Bill, I do have all four volumes of Gaige's "Chess Tournament
Crosstables," but I hope you will understand if I don't pore over
all 945 pages of the 1921-1930 book looking for references to
Showalter. However, according to the OC, Showalter made only
"isolated appearances in 1922 and 1926," so I checked those years.
1922 was the Western Association Tournament at Louisville.
Participants, in order of finish, were Samuel Factor, N.T. Whitaker,
Edward Lasker, Showalter, E.W. Gruer, I. Spero, A.J. Conen, H.
Hahlbohm, J.H. Norris, F.E. Judge, M. Palmer, and F.A. Holloway. Factor
was already MN=3 by virtue of playing Emanuel Lasker in 1920, Whitaker
by Em. Lasker in 1907, and Ed. Lasker by Janowski and Mieses
(Scheveningen 1913), but everyone behind Showalter in the standings may
have gotten his 3 there.
1926 was Chicago. Aside from Marshall, Torre, Maroczy, Factor, and
Edward Lasker, who were already MN=3, that confers a 3 on Charles
Jaffe, Abraham Kupchik, Isaac Kashdan, Adolf Fink, Newell Banks, Oscar
Chajes, and Lewis Isaacs.
Taylor Kingston
Taylor Kingston wrote:
> 1926 was Chicago. Aside from Marshall, Torre, Maroczy, Factor, and
> Edward Lasker, who were already MN=3
Oops! I must revise myself. Maroczy is a 2, by virtue of playing Bird
at London 1899. I was thinking only of Hastings 1895, were he and Bird
both played but in different sections.
Chess One
<>> True, Showalter played Bird at New York 1889, so he's a 2. But my
>> crummy databases have almost nothing on him past 1916: only his game
>> with Carlos Torre at Chicago 1926,
>
> I have inexcusably failed to buy any of the crosstable
> books available. If anyone has the western open crosstables
> for the late 1920s up to 1935 we might find more threes.
Showalter won the US Open in 1915, but I also have no cross-tables so don't
know if he competed later. Interestingly he played 2nd board for the US in
the Anglo-American cable matches 1896-1901. He didn't play between Cambridge
Springs 04 and Western Assoc Championship 1915. Died '35. He played matches
E. Lasker '93, Pillsbury '97, Pillsbury 98, Janowski '98/99. Janowski 99,
undated record Janowski., losing first 4 above, winning last two. I have
WLDs.
I assume he did not play for the Olympiad squads in 1928 through 35. I have
Hastings cross-tables and he doesn't show up '20 through '35.
> While searching for Showalter I found that his home town
> has him listed as world chess champion.
Twice US champ, 90-92, and 06-09. They have really 'Lionised' him! Phil
Anders Thulin
> Bill, I do have all four volumes of Gaige's "Chess Tournament
> Crosstables," but I hope you will understand if I don't pore over
> all 945 pages of the 1921-1930 book looking for references to
> Showalter.
That problem is exactly the reason for the 'Name Index'. See
http://web.telia.com/~u40117134/.
A quick look indicates that Gaige lists only Louisville, 1922
and Chicago, 1926 as Showalter apperances in the 1920s.
--
Anders Thulin ath*algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~ath
Jeremy Spinrad
copied up to 1920
Jerry Spinrad
1915
Excelsior JW Showalter 9-1 NT Whitaker 8.5 H Hahlbohm 7 H Hokensen 6 WL Moorman
5.5 DD Barkuloo 5 W Widmeyer,CH Erickson 4 EP Elliott 3.5 JW Fry 2 WJ
Platten 0.5
1916
Chicago Ed Lasker 16.5-2.5 JW Showalter 16 H Hahlbohm 14.5 JT Becker,NT Whitaker
13.5 RS Hoff 13 G Gessner 12.5 LJ Isaacs,J Winter 12 WL Moorman 10 EF Schrader
9.5 WG Hine 9 K Erdeky 8 EM Cobb,J Daniels 7 HG Kent 6 HH Ryan 3.5 M Palmer 3
RH Willingham 2 ML Walker 1
St Petersburg P Komarov,G Sokolov,L Travin 5-3 V Lyus 3 P Kuzmin 2
Tampa WL Moorman 7-2 JW Showalter,SFJ Trabue 4 N Hernandes 3
1917
Lexington Ed Lasker 6.5-1.5 JW Showalter,J Winter 4.5 WL Moorman 3.5 JT Beckner
1
1918
Chicago B Kostic 9.5-1.5 H Hahlbohm,Ed lasker,JS Morrison,NT Whitaker 7
LJ Isaacs,WL Moorman 5.5 J Winter 5 JW Showalter 4.5 JT Becker,G Gessner 3.5
WS Gilman 1
1919
Cincinatti Ed Lasker 8.5-1.5 JT Beckner 7.5 J Winter 7 JW Showalter 6.5
G Gessner,PG Keeney 5.5 E Schrader 5 S Schapiro 4.5 JW Fry 3 JH Norris 2
JE Judge 0
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> Showalter won the US Open in 1915, but I also have no cross-tables so don't
> know if he competed later.
I thought I recalled a comment by Edward Lasker that Showalter
played every year in the Western Open until he died. But it
appears from Gaige that his last appearance was indeed 1926,
so I must be wrong about that.
Interestingly he played 2nd board for the US in
> the Anglo-American cable matches 1896-1901. He didn't play between Cambridge
> Springs 04 and Western Assoc Championship 1915.
I don't think it was that early, but he also played in a
Western open won by Edward Lasker, who annotates their
game in "Chess Secrets".
Died '35. He played matches
> E. Lasker '93, Pillsbury '97, Pillsbury 98, Janowski '98/99. Janowski 99,
> undated record Janowski., losing first 4 above, winning last two. I have
> WLDs.
Marshall also played a match with Showalter in 1909, so that
he could claim the US title after Pillsbury's death.
>
> I assume he did not play for the Olympiad squads in 1928 through 35.
No, that was mostly the younger generation, aside from
Marshall.
I have
> Hastings cross-tables and he doesn't show up '20 through '35.
But now that we know Maroczy is a 2, he and Mieses might
supply a number of threes via Hastings.
Taylor Kingston
> But now that we know Maroczy is a 2, he and Mieses might
> supply a number of threes via Hastings.
As far as I can easily determine, Maroczy played in the Hastings
Premier at least twice, 1923-24 and 1929-30. Of those playing in
1923-24, Euwe, Yates, Adolf Seitz, J.H. Blake, and Mieses already had
MNs of 2 or 3; for Colle, R.P. Michell, G.M. Norman, and H.E. Price
I'm not sure, but they were at least 3s afterwards. In 1929-30 most
of the participants were already 3s: Capablanca, Yates, Vidmar, Takacs,
Thomas, Kostic, Price; but Geza's presence would have conferred 3s on
E.G. Sergeant, W. Winter, and Vera Menchik, if they did not have them
already.
Mieses played there at least three times: 1895, 1923-4 and, as I
discussed earlier, in 1945, and perhaps in a lower section later.
strain...@duskmail.com
senn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Jeremy Spinrad wrote:
> What is your own Morphy number?
> I've glanced at the list of Erdos number \< 2
> holders, and I see there Jeremy P. Spinrad
> (three times, with three different coauthors
> of number 1). Are you the one? Then
> your total Erdos+Morphy number would be of
> extra interest.
> *****
> A curiosity: who are the chess players
> who have a lower Morphy number than
> a world champion older than them?
> For instance, there should be players
> in the USA, who are younger than Karpov
> but have a lower Morphy number.
> Regards,
> Wlod
Great