Chess Analysis Software

soc...@rocketmail.com

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Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97

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Which is the best software for analyzing your chess games?
Please post/email your opinions/reasons.

Joe

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Komputer Korner

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Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97

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soc...@rocketmail.com wrote:

It is pretty hard to beat the analysis feature in Fritz 5 with the
Hiarcs 6 engine set to 40/2 analysis . You can set the positional and
the endgame engine to Hiarcs 6 and the tactical engine to Fritz5.

--

Best regards
Komputer Korner

The inkompetent komputer

If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out.
Note that my true email is still kor...@netcom.ca
I don't often check the email of the sympatico address.

Carl Tillotson

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Jul 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/26/97

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In article <33D8A0E5...@netcom.ca>, Komputer Korner wrote:

> It is pretty hard to beat the analysis feature in Fritz 5 with the
> Hiarcs 6 engine set to 40/2 analysis . Y

Unaware that Fritz5 was out, when was it released ?

Carlos
******
Email : Remove XSPAM before replying.
Lancashire Chess Association Homepage
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lca/index.htm

Message Written Offline with Virtual Access 4.0 Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:33 +0100

Komputer Korner

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Jul 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/26/97

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Carl Tillotson wrote:

It is not released yet, but soon. When it hits the market, it will cause
a sensation with all its features. Even Crafty lovers will soon start
buying.

mclane

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Jul 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/27/97

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Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>It is not released yet, but soon. When it hits the market, it will cause
>a sensation with all its features. Even Crafty lovers will soon start
>buying.

What a good thing KK that YOU never write about BETA-versions. And
what a good thing that YOU never advertise with BETA programs. And at
least... what a good thing that YOU are never less modest than we
expect you to be... :-)

Ozgur Karabiyik

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Jul 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/27/97

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Fritz 4 is the top software money can buy. You can analyse games in endless
variation trees and it is more cheaper than Chessbase. Only down side is
that it comes in CD format only. Also once installed the program loses its
functions after a week, so you have to "refuel" for security reasons. It is
a pain in the ass to find the CD every week. Otherwise I recomended to
everyone.

--
Reagards,
Ozgur Karabiyik

chrisw

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Jul 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/28/97

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--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article
<5rf11f$qsj$1...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...

If the developer/publisher gives you permission you can write what you like
about pre-release versions.

If he doesn't explicitly give you permission, or makes you sign a
non-disclosure agreement, then you should keep your mouth closed.

We know that KK is quite legalistically careful about what he says
(remember chess Wars and Art Data ?)

So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.

Or in the words of certain german commentators, KK is Mathias's dog :)

Woof-woof ......

Chris Whittington

>
>
>
>

Komputer Korner

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Jul 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/28/97

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chrisw wrote:

>
>
> >
> We know that KK is quite legalistically careful about what he says
> (remember chess Wars and Art Data ?)
>
> So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
> explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.
>
> Or in the words of certain german commentators, KK is Mathias's dog :)
>
> Woof-woof ......
>
> Chris Whittington
>
> >
> >
> >
> >

I am willing to promote any excellent piece of chess software and do
it all the time for a number of programs. If CSTAL had been on the
market, I would have promoted it as well. As it is I have said a number
of nice things about CSTAL. Too bad it is just vapourware.

chrisw

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Jul 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/28/97

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--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<33DC8EC3...@netcom.ca>...

> chrisw wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > We know that KK is quite legalistically careful about what he says
> > (remember chess Wars and Art Data ?)
> >
> > So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
> > explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.
> >
> > Or in the words of certain german commentators, KK is Mathias's dog :)
> >
> > Woof-woof ......
> >
> > Chris Whittington
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> I am willing to promote any excellent piece of chess software and do
> it all the time for a number of programs. If CSTAL had been on the
> market, I would have promoted it as well. As it is I have said a number
> of nice things about CSTAL. Too bad it is just vapourware.

That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.

Would you like me to release it now ?

:)))))))))))

Chris Whittington

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/28/97

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"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote to the Korner:

>> If CSTAL had been on the
>> market, I would have promoted it as well. As it is I have said a number
>> of nice things about CSTAL. Too bad it is just vapourware.

>That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.

>Would you like me to release it now ?

>:)))))))))))

SOS SOS SOS

Attention please. Could someone in the Oksford region of the British
Isles measure heart rate and peepee-status of one of Britain's most
extraordinary salesman?

It's urgent.

The last days he started to LOL about his life duty, the releasing of
CCS. Now under the spooky name of the late Mikhail Tal.
He lols so much that I fear he could break nose and beans while doing
ROTFL. Also regarding his progressing age ...
Each minutes could decide. Animal doctors are appreciated as well. It's
a case of urgency. Leave your BSE cows and come to Oksford. Boots are
very important as the patient could have dissapeared in the woods. Just
follow his freaky LOLs. :)))))))))))) ... ))))))))===>>direction Germany

SOS SOS SOS

P:S. If you find accidently a little dog over there. Do the following
first treatment. Give him a minimum 28 cm long curry wurst / with pommes
[sorry to the french guys, this is a natural german idiom] red and
white. And don't forget to watch his ears. Remove all the beans you can
see. You must know that this is the usual *play* (!!) the master plays
with his fidele dog. :((((((((((((((((( <sighs>
And then, please, don't forget to send him best greatings from good old
Westphalia. His homeland. Give him a little friendly clap in my name.

SOS SOS SOS

mclane

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>If the developer/publisher gives you permission you can write what you like
>about pre-release versions.

The point is not that he writes about beta-version. I can stand this.
The point is, that he is writing unbelievable , often contraproductive
stuff about beta-versions, meanwhile he critisizes me to play with
CSTal. He calls MY matches ADVERTISING and his stuff or praising
religiously: information.

This was the point. We should by some people a mirror. Or they should
look into water. Like narcist has done it. Maybe they see something in
the water that remembers them on something.

>So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
>explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.

I don't think so. I remember the same kind of praising about MONSTER
hiarcs and other monsters.
I would say: he is a priest. Many computerchess people are religious
people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that believing
in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or it could
be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !

Whatever. Maybe KK is a priest too. Maybe he is Paulus.

>Or in the words of certain german commentators, KK is Mathias's dog :)

Matthias needs no dog. He has Frederic!
Fred is better than KK. When he "launches" a product, you can be sure,
"it will change your life".

>Woof-woof ......

>Chris Whittington

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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mcl...@prima.ruhr.de (mclane) wrote:

> Many computerchess people are religious
>people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that believing
>in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or it could
>be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !

Yes, and don't forget the surplus time they win by their destiny to rely
on auto-sexuality. The priests. :)

>Whatever.

>>Woof-woof ......

chrisw

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

<5rk7fl$gco$3...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...

> "chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >If the developer/publisher gives you permission you can write what you
like
> >about pre-release versions.
>
> The point is not that he writes about beta-version. I can stand this.
> The point is, that he is writing unbelievable , often contraproductive
> stuff about beta-versions, meanwhile he critisizes me to play with
> CSTal. He calls MY matches ADVERTISING and his stuff or praising
> religiously: information.
>
> This was the point. We should by some people a mirror. Or they should
> look into water. Like narcist has done it. Maybe they see something in
> the water that remembers them on something.
>
>
> >So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
> >explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.
>
> I don't think so. I remember the same kind of praising about MONSTER
> hiarcs and other monsters.

> I would say: he is a priest. Many computerchess people are religious

> people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that believing
> in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or it could
> be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist
religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
christian.

Without casting any sort of value judgement, this seems a high proportion
of non-mainstream religious people for a small materialist-techno hobby
............ ?

Further elucidation ...... ?

Chris Whittington

Enrique Irazoqui

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
<01bc9c0a$b67ecaa0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...

Or the sociology of computer chess.

As far as I know (not much), the proportion of religious people doesn't
seem to be any higher here than somewhere else. The level of aggressivity
is.

There are other elements that make me curious about.

- Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
world.
- Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
the verge of paranoia.
- Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow circle
of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of cinema or
above all in physics.

Enrique

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist
>religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
>christian.

>Without casting any sort of value judgement, this seems a high proportion
>of non-mainstream religious people for a small materialist-techno hobby
>............ ?

Let me strictly oppose the impression that religious people are
neccessarily lunatics at the same time.

What really intrigues me is the fact that some of those people are so
intolerant.

How can a smart guy believe in something which is different all over the
world? Doesn't this prove that religion is a man-made need/illusion?

>Further elucidation ...... ?

>Chris Whittington

>>

Ed Schroder

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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From: "Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl>

: > I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist

: > religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
: > christian.
: >
: > Without casting any sort of value judgement, this seems a high proportion
: > of non-mainstream religious people for a small materialist-techno hobby
: > ............ ?

: >
: > Further elucidation ...... ?
: >
: > Chris Whittington

: Or the sociology of computer chess.

: As far as I know (not much), the proportion of religious people doesn't
: seem to be any higher here than somewhere else. The level of aggressivity
: is.

: There are other elements that make me curious about.

: - Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
: world.

USA started first obvious as the number one country in computer chess. After
years England and Holland followed, now Germany is awakening. I assume we
will soon see new German stars. So maybe the answer is time or the many
years you need to write a good chess program?

: - Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
: the verge of paranoia.

I don't think it is worse than in other areas.

: - Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow circle

: of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of cinema or
: above all in physics.

In order to write (a good) chess program there isn't time left?

:))

- Ed Schroder -

: Enrique

Ed Schroder

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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From: "chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>

Subject: Re: chess computers and god

If you don't mind I changed the above subject into:

Subject: Re: chess computers and God

:))

: > I don't think so. I remember the same kind of praising about MONSTER

: > hiarcs and other monsters.
: > I would say: he is a priest. Many computerchess people are religious
: > people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that believing
: > in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or it could
: > be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !

: I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist

: religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
: christian.

Ed is a member of the 'Full Gospel Church' which is something between the
Pentecost Church and the Baptist Church, at least here in Holland. Don't
know about other countries...

: Without casting any sort of value judgement, this seems a high proportion
: of non-mainstream religious people for a small materialist-techno hobby
: ............ ?

Ah, I have done several interviews where (mostly at the end) the journalist
asks about my belief and if I answer I do they start to look funny, they
become nervous and a few of them even asked, 'how can that be such an
intelligent guy like you?'

I took it as a compliment :))

- Ed Schroder -

Ingo Althoefer

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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Chris Whittington wrote:
>mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

>> .... Many computerchess people are religious

>> people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that

>> believing in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity....

At least not for me. I could live very well without computer chess, but not
without my belief in the triune God.

>I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist
>religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
>christian.

You are partly right. I did not post it, but mention it in my finger notes
on a chess server.

Ingo Althoefer.

chrisw

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

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--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<01bc9c11$9f867ee0$13216dc2@ei>...

> chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
> <01bc9c0a$b67ecaa0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
> >
> > --
> > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
> >

> > mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

> > <5rk7fl$gco$3...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...
> > > "chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > >If the developer/publisher gives you permission you can write what
you
> > like
> > > >about pre-release versions.
> > >
> > > The point is not that he writes about beta-version. I can stand this.
> > > The point is, that he is writing unbelievable , often
contraproductive
> > > stuff about beta-versions, meanwhile he critisizes me to play with
> > > CSTal. He calls MY matches ADVERTISING and his stuff or praising
> > > religiously: information.
> > >
> > > This was the point. We should by some people a mirror. Or they should
> > > look into water. Like narcist has done it. Maybe they see something
in
> > > the water that remembers them on something.
> > >
> > >
> > > >So, you can assume from KK's repeated comments that ChessBase has
> > > >explicitly encouraged him to promote Fritz5 on rgcc.
> > >

> > > I don't think so. I remember the same kind of praising about MONSTER
> > > hiarcs and other monsters.

> > > I would say: he is a priest. Many computerchess people are religious

> > > people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that believing

> > > in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or it
could
> > > be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !
> >

> > I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist
> > religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a
born-again
> > christian.
> >

> > Without casting any sort of value judgement, this seems a high
proportion
> > of non-mainstream religious people for a small materialist-techno hobby
> > ............ ?
> >

> > Further elucidation ...... ?
> >
> > Chris Whittington
>

> Or the sociology of computer chess.
>
> As far as I know (not much), the proportion of religious people doesn't
> seem to be any higher here than somewhere else. The level of aggressivity
> is.

1. Male

2. War game

3. Zero-sum game

4. Ego perceived to be wrapped up in win/lose

>
> There are other elements that make me curious about.
>
> - Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
> world.

1. Intelligent, educated population like playing mind games

> - Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
> the verge of paranoia.

1. Isolated

2. Working alone, terrified anybody else will elarn the secrets

3. Implies that the secrets are no big deal

4. Same problems as with chess/war games in general, as above: male,
isolated etc.

> - Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow circle
> of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of cinema
or
> above all in physics.

Dunno about the rest of them, but I'm interested in just about everything.
And do it too.

Chris Whittington

>
> Enrique

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
><01bc9c0a$b67ecaa0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...

Quite naive. Look at other sites.

>There are other elements that make me curious about.

>- Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
>world.

Let me tell you one very important factor. The Dutch fortunately had a
real world champion in chess in modern times. No other west european
country had one!

All these Anderssen, Lasker and Steinitz came from the East or Austria.

I think that teaches you a lot.

For me Frans and Ed are (with other dutch chess and don't forget
checkers (dame) or how it's called) champs in a line of that beautiful
tradition.

>- Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
>the verge of paranoia.

I don't have your extraordinary tools to detect the like, but I'd like
to oppose your statement. I would like to state the same here what you
wrote for the question of religion. It's simply an oversimplification.

>- Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow circle
>of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of cinema or
>above all in physics.

How do YOU know, you spanish party soldier?

Isn't it enough that we have in this group a huge mass of differents
artists and experts? Did you ever hear of Picasso that he did *other*
things than painting/creating something with pencil, colours or old
tires?

What do you expect creative genius' to do??

Climbing the Mount Everest in bathing trunks?

I only met very specialized people her in rgcc. The problem for you as a
teacher seems to be, that you are lacking of this creative forces. And
so you want to be entertained, you need all the time new stimuli. There
a nice film by Aldomovar. Then a royal sinfonie of Tropicer. Some dark
holes in the very far distance of Hyatts tail. And two wifes!! One for
your belly and children and the other for parties and society.

I _know_ the reason why.

You simply are no good in chess, but you like to play the party soldier
for others. So you became an official. An addict of the pencil behind
your ears as such. Bed and entertainement for free.

And NOW you have the chuzbe to give us this shit about lacking interests
in most rgcc members. BULL. <angry frowning of nose and cheeks and
belly>

What do _you_ do when interested people ask questions? You buy a ticket
to take a trip near to the french border to be able to send your
messages out of Spain. Right? And then you decide who's to eliminate,
who's unworthy to attend the ceremony.

Damn, you have a lot of interesting fields where you claimed knowing a
lot of people. Klingelingeling. Sure, you're too shy to throw some
names. But I simply don't believe you. You want to hear why?

You're simply so stupid to even think of stars like Ed Schroder to make
here the clown by posting quoted secondary "insight" about pyramids and
the like. How vain. Thanks GOD, this won't happen.
Ed has enough to do with his Rebel in the top legue of computer chess,
man, if you can understand of what I'm taliking about.

I'm sure that Bahamontes and Indurein also exclusively wrote poetry on
the public toilet's walls when they had a resting day. But not in/during
the race.

A specialist like Czub could very well be a very creative guy too in his
testing procedurings. If he _hadn't_ this never satisfied wish of the
underdog to prove/convince all the world of his importance. For me he's
important enough with his knowledge of years of computer chess! W/o star
treck and historical blabla.

I give you a homework for the next months, ok? Now, be creative! This is
a test. :))

You construct and build a wooden chair and table. Ok? And please
remember, each has normally four = 4 legs ... And normally one can sit
on the chair and eat a soup which is on the table in a pot. And my
trousers remain absolutely dry during the whole ceremony, right?! No wet
trousers either because of accidents by too much ROTFL or slurping the
soup out of my lap.

What do _you_ know about _creativity_, poor Enrique mine? :)

>Enrique

Enrique Irazoqui

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo

<01bc9c3c$1b3721a0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...

>
> --
> http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
>
> Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
> <01bc9c11$9f867ee0$13216dc2@ei>...

> > chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
> > <01bc9c0a$b67ecaa0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
> > >

> > > --
> > > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

> 1. Male
>
> 2. War game
>
> 3. Zero-sum game
>
> 4. Ego perceived to be wrapped up in win/lose
>
> >

> > There are other elements that make me curious about.
> >
> > - Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
> > world.
>

> 1. Intelligent, educated population like playing mind games
>
>

> > - Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even
on
> > the verge of paranoia.
>

> 1. Isolated
>
> 2. Working alone, terrified anybody else will elarn the secrets
>
> 3. Implies that the secrets are no big deal
>
> 4. Same problems as with chess/war games in general, as above: male,
> isolated etc.
>

> > - Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow
circle
> > of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of
cinema
> or
> > above all in physics.
>

> Dunno about the rest of them, but I'm interested in just about
everything.
> And do it too.

I know you are. And it shows. Mine was a generalization, risky as all
generalizations. I didn't include everybody in it.

Enrique

mclane

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I am willing to promote any excellent piece of chess software and do

So you are not a tester but a promoter ??

>> it all the time for a number of programs.

It is not to overseeeeee.

>> If CSTAL had been on the
>> market, I would have promoted it as well.

But why do you "promote" beta's like fritz5 although it is just a
vapourware ??

>>As it is I have said a number
>> of nice things about CSTAL.

Don't take this as an insult : I am personally NOT interested in
reading your ideas about CSTal. I don't think the main strength of
CSTAL are NICE THINGS.
The user-interface was designed a few years ago, long time before
Fritz4.
The "nice things" about cstal is something that cannot be copied. It
is the way it evaluates the position, and the way it plays.
Also HOW it does compute.

If all chess programs are actors, than cstal is maybe like marlon
brando.
Or hardy krueger. Or william shatner. Or monty cliff.
It is somehow different than the others and goes its own ways.

Of yourse other actors like spencer tracy and james stewart are
"better", bigger or more famous. But ...

>>Too bad it is just vapourware.

>That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.

>Would you like me to release it now ?

Chris - can somebody exlpain to me what VAPOURWARE is ??

>:)))))))))))

>Chris Whittington

chrisw

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article

<01bc9c47$98a82a20$83216dc2@ei>...

Thank you, Enrique.

But my wife thinks I'm a non-artistic philistine (she's into art and art
and more art, pots, paintings all that stuff)

Chris Whittington

chrisw

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

<5rlarh$rj9$5...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...

Yup, its a program that is announced and PR-ed, but doesn't exist.

Bit like our CSTal :)

We'll just have to 'exist' it, won't we ?

Chris Whittington

>
>
> >:)))))))))))
>
> >Chris Whittington
>
>
>
>
>

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

alth...@pdec01.uucp (Ingo Althoefer) wrote:

>Chris Whittington wrote:
>>mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

>>> .... Many computerchess people are religious

>>> people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that

>>> believing in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity....

>At least not for me. I could live very well without computer chess, but not
>without my belief in the triune God.

>>I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a non-conformist

>>religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again

What does that mean? Rebirthing?

Peter Coleman

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

So much choler! Be careful you don't have a coronary!

Rolf W. Tueschen wrote in article <5rkvc3$i4$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...

chrisw

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Peter Coleman <plc...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<5rleam$s...@kew.globalnet.co.uk>...

> So much choler! Be careful you don't have a coronary!
>
> Rolf W. Tueschen wrote in article <5rkvc3$i4$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
>

> >What do _you_ know about _creativity_, poor Enrique mine? :)
>
>

The rest of us have decided the best policy is just not to answer at all.

Shame, but there it is.

You can work out who the rest of us is quite easily by just studying the
traffic, or non-traffic, should I say.

Chris Whittington

>
>
>

Enrique Irazoqui

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo

<01bc9c4f$f655d160$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...

>
> --
> http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
>
> Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
> <01bc9c47$98a82a20$83216dc2@ei>...
> > chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
> > <01bc9c3c$1b3721a0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
> > >
> > > Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
> > > <01bc9c11$9f867ee0$13216dc2@ei>...
> > > > chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
> > > > <01bc9c0a$b67ecaa0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
> > > > >

> > > > > mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

> > > > > > I would say: he is a priest. Many computerchess people are

> > religious
> > > > > > people. Dirk Frickenschmidt, Eric Hallsworth. It seems that
> > believing

> > > > > > in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity. Or
it
> > > could
> > > > > > be another reason: priests have as much time as teachers !
> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Ed is a member of a
> > non-conformist
> > > > > religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a
> > > born-again

Mine too! And she doesn't even criticize me for not being philistine
enough. :)

Enrique

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

Chris, really, is the BETA already real? I ordered some.

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"Peter Coleman" <plc...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>So much choler! Be careful you don't have a coronary!

No no. It's against warts, they say. These witches.

Greetings

Rolf Tueschen

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>But my wife thinks I'm a non-artistic philistine

Mr. Whitty Nitty,

philistines are the base of all fascistic movement. Often it's a closer
masculin hyper queer bombast.

Again, think of your responsibility. For Rosy, Gwendolyne and Martha.
And your wife Herman too. Fight those masochistical inner drives like a
man, Chrissie.

Yours truly

Rodolpherus XXViii (PA Teusch)

PS.

Do you know the roman number for 29? :)

>(she's into art and art
>and more art, pots, paintings all that stuff)

>Chris Whittington
>> Enrique
>> > Chris Whittington
>> > > Enrique
>> > > > > >Woof-woof ......
>> > > > > >Chris Whittington

york...@sympaticon.ca

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Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

On 29 Jul 1997 14:40:03 GMT, TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de
(Rolf W. Tueschen) wrote:

>Let me tell you one very important factor. The Dutch fortunately had a
>real world champion in chess in modern times. No other west european
>country had one!
>
>All these Anderssen, Lasker and Steinitz came from the East or Austria.
>
>I think that teaches you a lot.

What does it teach us?

Dave B.

*************************

To reply, remove the n from my email address.

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

mcl...@prima.ruhr.de (mclane) wrote:

>"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I am willing to promote any excellent piece of chess software and do

>So you are not a tester but a promoter ??

>>> it all the time for a number of programs.

>It is not to overseeeeee.

>>> If CSTAL had been on the
>>> market, I would have promoted it as well.

>But why do you "promote" beta's like fritz5 although it is just a
>vapourware ??

>>>As it is I have said a number
>>> of nice things about CSTAL.

>Don't take this as an insult : I am personally NOT interested in
>reading your ideas about CSTal. I don't think the main strength of
>CSTAL are NICE THINGS.
>The user-interface was designed a few years ago, long time before
>Fritz4.
>The "nice things" about cstal is something that cannot be copied. It
>is the way it evaluates the position, and the way it plays.
>Also HOW it does compute.

>If all chess programs are actors, than cstal is maybe like marlon
>brando.
>Or hardy krueger. Or william shatner. Or monty cliff.
>It is somehow different than the others and goes

Duh. It can walk? +-------------'(:-D

>its own ways.

>Of yourse other actors like spencer tracy and james stewart are
>"better", bigger or more famous. But ...

You mean the japanese baby animal?

>>>Too bad it is just vapourware.

>>That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.

>>Would you like me to release it now ?

>Chris - can somebody exlpain to me what VAPOURWARE is ??

It's sort of a chess oscar ...
>>:)))))))))))

>>Chris Whittington

Tord Kallqvist Romstad

unread,

Jul 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/29/97

to

"Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl> writes:

>
> chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
> <01bc9c3c$1b3721a0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
> >
> > --
> > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
> >
> > Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article

> > > - Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow
> circle
> > > of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of
> cinema
> > or
> > > above all in physics.
> >
> > Dunno about the rest of them, but I'm interested in just about
> everything.
> > And do it too.
>
> I know you are. And it shows. Mine was a generalization, risky as all
> generalizations. I didn't include everybody in it.
>

> Enrique

I am not at all sure that most computer chess people have a shallow circle
of interests. It would be interesting to know what the participants in this
newsgroup do besides chess programming. My own main interests at the moment
are mathematics, music, running, juggling, go, computer chess and linguistics,
in roughly that order (though I don't seem to have much talent in any of
these fields). What hobbies do the rest of you have? Any other sprinters
or jugglers here? :-)

Tord

Robert Hyatt

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

Tord Kallqvist Romstad (tor...@gyda.ifi.uio.no) wrote:
: "Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl> writes:

: Tord

I'll bite.

I have the following "hobbies" (in addition to computer chess of course.)

1. boat racing

2. fishing/camping

3. bicycle riding (mountain bikes primarily)

4. radio controlled model airplanes, including a ducted fan model jet
that has been clocked at 173 mph, as well as model airplane racing and
the like.

5. swimming/water skiing

6. hot rodder/mechanic. Current project is a 302 mustang my son and I
are rebuilding. If you visit birmingham, beware a silver 1993 mustang. :)
(also beware an innocent looking 1992 Astro bass boat with what appears to
be a 150hp V6 outboard on the transom... looks are deceiving)...

7. Former ham radio fanatic.

8. Former Karate fanatic (doctor said stop kicking and stop playing
basketball, or suffer a total knee replacement in a couple of years. I
believed him...)

9. musical hobbies such as an electric guitar and a keyboard/piano,
although if you've heard Marty Hirsch play, you won't want to play after
him...

10. avid "do it yourself'er" haven't had a car in a shop in years, nor a
plumber/repairman of any sort at my house...

A brief insight into the private life of Bob... :)

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

york...@sympaticon.ca wrote:

>On 29 Jul 1997 14:40:03 GMT, TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de
>(Rolf W. Tueschen) wrote:

>>Let me tell you one very important factor. The Dutch fortunately had a
>>real world champion in chess in modern times. No other west european
>>country had one!
>>
>>All these Anderssen, Lasker and Steinitz came from the East or Austria.
>>
>>I think that teaches you a lot.

>What does it teach us?

Sorry. The main point I mentioned in my post, you deleted. We could talk
a long time about "tradition". It's a socio-psychological factor.

I must excuse myself for writing "teaches you" which was directed here
to Enrique who claimed several points in his post which he didn't
explain at all. So my answer was a little replique. Directed to Enrique.
It was publicely posted but in this short form meant as a personal
answer.

BTW I had great interests to discuss questions like this. But it would
be better placed in misc.
If it interests you too, please write your opinion/ideas about chess
tradition in different countries. I'm happy to join you. To find out
more about this enthusiasm in Holland.

Greetings

Rolf Tueschen

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

"chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Peter Coleman <plc...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
><5rleam$s...@kew.globalnet.co.uk>...

>> So much choler! Be careful you don't have a coronary!
>>

>> Rolf W. Tueschen wrote in article <5rkvc3$i4$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
>>

>> >What do _you_ know about _creativity_, poor Enrique mine? :)
>>
>>

>The rest of us have decided the best policy is just not to answer at all.

>Shame, but there it is.

Must not be ashamed. It's your nature.

Excluding/eliminating/extinguishing people in a newsgroup isn't that
spectacular. Not comparable to the nazi-like plans of your bloodhound
Czub.

Squares, out of the gutter's, fascists unite.
Businessmen Schroder (Rebel) and Whittington (CCS "Tal") leaders of the
pack.

Nice discovery. Now come out of the closet. :)

Tord Kallqvist Romstad

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt) writes:
> 9. musical hobbies such as an electric guitar and a keyboard/piano,
> although if you've heard Marty Hirsch play, you won't want to play after
> him...

Marty? Interesting...
What instrument does he play?

Tord

Robert Hyatt

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

Tord Kallqvist Romstad (tor...@hrotti.ifi.uio.no) wrote:

: Tord

He'd be a great world-class concert pianist. Very talented...

mclane

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

"Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>- Why is a tiny country like Holland so important in the chess computer
>world.

I can only repeat myself:
Enrique, if you would have ever sit in the Aegon building during the
dinner time, you would understand. It is the nice atmosphere, the
relaxed people, the tolerance (despite some prejudices against germans
- but this is ok - all nations are allowed to have some hatred against
klingons)

>- Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
>the verge of paranoia.

They are planning in forward in mind ?!
I think the computer-chess people are a selected group out of a bigger
neurotical-group of people. Only a few are normal. Most of them are
weird.

>- Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow circle
>of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of cinema or
>above all in physics.

How do you know ?? I think Marty has many interests. Chris has also
many interests. And I have many interests too. Computerchess is just
ONE part of the building.

>Enrique

mclane

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

alth...@pdec01.uucp (Ingo Althoefer) wrote:

>>> believing in God and believing in computerchess has some similarity....

>At least not for me. I could live very well without computer chess, but not
>without my belief in the triune God.

Ha ! Very funny Ingo, for me it is vice versa !! I am a communist and
could live very well without GOD but...

>>religious group, and I remember Althofer posting that he is a born-again
>>christian.

>You are partly right. I did not post it, but mention it in my finger notes
>on a chess server.

Aha! Whatever as born-again christian is - or whatever a triune God
is,
have a nice day Ingo.

chrisw

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

mclane <mcl...@prima.ruhr.de> wrote in article

<5ro1hd$5uf$6...@steve.prima.ruhr.de>...

If you have too many interests they call you mad and try to ban you.

Robots only are welcome.

Chris Whittington

>
> >Enrique
>
>
>

Komputer Korner

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

Robert Hyatt wrote:

>
>
> I have the following "hobbies" (in addition to computer chess of
> course.)
>
>

1. boat racing

2. fishing/camping

3. bicycle riding (mountain bikes primarily)
4. radio controlled model airplanes, including a ducted fan model jet
that has been clocked at 173 mph, as well as model airplane racing and
the like.

> 5. swimming/water skiing
>
> 6. hot rodder/mechanic. Current project is a 302 mustang my son and
> I
> are rebuilding. If you visit birmingham, beware a silver 1993
> mustang. :)
> (also beware an innocent looking 1992 Astro bass boat with what
> appears to
> be a 150hp V6 outboard on the transom... looks are deceiving)...
>
>

> 9. musical hobbies such as an electric guitar and a keyboard/piano,
> although if you've heard Marty Hirsch play, you won't want to play
> after
> him...
>

> 10. avid "do it yourself'er" haven't had a car in a shop in years,
> nor a
> plumber/repairman of any sort at my house...
>
> A brief insight into the private life of Bob... :)

And when do you sleep? The above is final proof that Bob Hyatt is a
biological phenomenon who must be a product of a silicon -carbon
metamorphosis.

--

Best regards
Komputer Korner

The inkompetent komputer

If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out.
Note that my true email is still kor...@netcom.ca
I don't often check the email of the sympatico address.

chrisw

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Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<33DF6840...@netcom.ca>...

Korner loves to string long words together.

Shame they never mean anything :)

Chris Whittington

brucemo

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

Ed Schroder wrote:
>
> From: "chrisw" <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>
>
> Subject: Re: chess computers and god
>
> If you don't mind I changed the above subject into:
>
> Subject: Re: chess computers and God
>
> :))

Two can play that game :-)

bruce

brucemo

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

mclane wrote:

> The point is not that he writes about beta-version. I can stand this.
> The point is, that he is writing unbelievable , often contraproductive
> stuff about beta-versions, meanwhile he critisizes me to play with
> CSTal. He calls MY matches ADVERTISING and his stuff or praising
> religiously: information.

Yes, he was being hypocritical in one sense. He was criticising you for
getting all hyper about a product that doesn't exist yet, but he has done
that several times, and is in the process of doing it right now.

Your posts do have great impact though. I don't think that people would
have anywhere near as much interest in CST if you weren't posting about it
all of the time.

bruce

Harald

unread,

Jul 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/30/97

to

quoting a mail from l...@xspamnetcomuk.co.uk

CT> In article <33D8A0E5...@netcom.ca>, Komputer Korner wrote:
CT>
CT> > It is pretty hard to beat the analysis feature in Fritz 5 with the
CT> > Hiarcs 6 engine set to 40/2 analysis . Y
CT>
CT> Unaware that Fritz5 was out, when was it released ?
CT> Carlos

Official announced for august 11th for Germany.

Harald Faber

Robert Hyatt

unread,

Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

Komputer Korner (kor...@netcom.ca) wrote:

: And when do you sleep? The above is final proof that Bob Hyatt is a

: biological phenomenon who must be a product of a silicon -carbon
: metamorphosis.

Jeez... you sound like my wife. I'd better start checking on what she
does on the internet when I'm not around. :) In any case, perhaps my
biggest hobby (and time waster) is watching crafty play on ICC> I'm
generally there to 12am or so Eastern...

Joe

unread,

Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

On 27 Jul 1997 22:22:36 GMT, "Ozgur Karabiyik"
<kara...@easynet.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Fritz 4 is the top software money can buy. You can analyse games in endless
>variation trees and it is more cheaper than Chessbase. Only down side is
>that it comes in CD format only. Also once installed the program loses its
>functions after a week, so you have to "refuel" for security reasons. It is
>a pain in the ass to find the CD every week. Otherwise I recomended to
>everyone.
>
>
>--
>Reagards,
>Ozgur Karabiyik

Ozgur,

Thanks for the info! One question though, can the analysis be printed
out, or is it just on the screen?

Joe

Komputer Korner

unread,

Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

mclane wrote:

> The "nice things" about cstal is something that cannot be copied. It
> is the way it evaluates the position, and the way it plays.
> Also HOW it does compute.
>
> If all chess programs are actors, than cstal is maybe like marlon
> brando.
> Or hardy krueger. Or william shatner. Or monty cliff.

> It is somehow different than the others and goes its own ways.

>
> Of yourse other actors like spencer tracy and james stewart are
> "better", bigger or more famous. But ...
>

> >>Too bad it is just vapourware.
>
> >That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.
>
> >Would you like me to release it now ?
>
> Chris - can somebody exlpain to me what VAPOURWARE is ??
>

> >:)))))))))))
>
> >Chris Whittington

Well if CSTAL is playing so great and wonderful and magical and all
that, I wonder why it's beta testing has broken all records for length
of time. Maybe you think that users will buy CSTAL for its unique and
wonderful sacrifices, but others will scoff at the unsoundness of most
of them. The true attraction of CSTAL is the features like the opening
book editor and database capability and the face that changes
expression depending on who is better and the 12 scoring parameters and
all the other stats and ind info that you get on screen plus the great
3D. I could go on and on about CSTAL, but if it remains vapourware for
much longer it's great features and interface will be surpassed by other
programs. If CSTAL plays too many bad moves ( sacs or not) users will
shy away from it for analysis. What Chris should have been doing is make
it play a little more conservative so that it was strong enough to
release. People will buy it for the features if it is not too weak. Your
testing to try to make it stronger and at the same time to keep it
sacrificing as often as possible is obviously not working. You are
running around in circles as even Chris has admitted that there is so
much asymmetry in CSTAL that any change you make has almost unfathomable
consequences. CSTAL's project is beginning to look like Botvinnik's
project.

Rolf W. Tueschen

unread,

Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>mclane wrote:

>> The point is not that he writes about beta-version. I can stand this.
>> The point is, that he is writing unbelievable , often contraproductive
>> stuff about beta-versions, meanwhile he critisizes me to play with
>> CSTal. He calls MY matches ADVERTISING and his stuff or praising
>> religiously: information.

>Yes, he was being hypocritical in one sense. He was criticising you for
>getting all hyper about a product that doesn't exist yet, but he has done
>that several times, and is in the process of doing it right now.

>Your posts do have great impact though.

Oh sure. For your brown nose too.

mclane

unread,

Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>Your posts do have great impact though. I don't think that people would

>have anywhere near as much interest in CST if you weren't posting about it
>all of the time.

Sorry. I am not only "in love" with CSTal. I do love many other chess
programs. And - of course - i would like to post about more programs.
I don't do it to say: this program xyz is the best product to buy in
the universe, a monster....etc.
My main idea is to show subjective information.
I would like to see other people post / write similar information.
From my point of view there are dozens of programs nobody speaks
about, amareur-programs or for whatever reasons unknown programs, and
I would like to read something about these programs. I think each
programmer is doing a great job. Each program is a tiny little
individual way of producing chess. Much work in it. Hours. Months.
Years. How can you forget the work of the programmers? I have always
tried to do a magazine, to have a media/forum to present all programs.
But always when you start something like that, you are suddenly in the
middle of an interest conflict. If you test program a, you suddenly
get insults by people Infinite-a and they say you are not objective
and THEIR product is better and and and.
I would like to write positive and negative reports, without saying
each time: this product is the best ! I would like to interview people
behind the programs: e.g. Ananse programmer: where does he get the
energy to participate and try it again and again.

Peter (pitters) is doing a great job in EUROPA-ROCHADE. He has space
to report about almost any chess-program, and he does it very
qualified and the magazine is published each month !! He does not have
any commercial interest conflict. He can write what he wants. No
censorship in this magazine. What a pity that you cannot join this
magazine because it is written in german.
In one of the editions e.g. he tested Corel-Chess / Power-Chess /
Virtual Chess.

Maybe he should post his articles soemwhere in internet. Maybe
somebody could translate them ...
They are worth translating them.

Also the austrians (Andreas Mader, Thomas Mally etc.) have done a
great job with Modul/PC-Schach.

But this magazine was to much work, and was much better than
Computer-Schach and Spiele, but they were unable to continue it.

>bruce

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>Rolf W. Tueschen wrote:
>>
>> brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>> >Your posts do have great impact though.
>>

>> Oh sure. For your brown nose too.

>Hi Rolf!

Next time you knock at the door politely before you enter.

>bruce

Joe McCaughan

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

Tord Kallqvist Romstad (tor...@gyda.ifi.uio.no) wrote:
: "Enrique Irazoqui" <en...@xs4all.nl> writes:

: >
: > chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> escribió en artículo
: > <01bc9c3c$1b3721a0$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>...
: > >
: > > --
: > > http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft
: > >
: > > Enrique Irazoqui <en...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article

: > > > - Why so many people in computer chess seem to have such a shallow

: > circle
: > > > of interests, unlike people I know in literature, in the world of
: > cinema
: > > or
: > > > above all in physics.

: > >
: > > Dunno about the rest of them, but I'm interested in just about
: > everything.
: > > And do it too.
: >
: > I know you are. And it shows. Mine was a generalization, risky as all
: > generalizations. I didn't include everybody in it.
: >
: > Enrique

: I am not at all sure that most computer chess people have a shallow circle
: of interests. It would be interesting to know what the participants in this
: newsgroup do besides chess programming. My own main interests at the moment
: are mathematics, music, running, juggling, go, computer chess and linguistics,
: in roughly that order (though I don't seem to have much talent in any of
: these fields). What hobbies do the rest of you have? Any other sprinters
: or jugglers here? :-)

: Tord

I have written chess engines in /bin/sh and in perl.
I am a born-again christian and enjoy bible study,
bagels, kids, friends, reading, good humor, and food :)

--Joe McCaughan | A man there was - they called him mad,
shi...@best.com | The more he gave - the more he had. (John Bunyan)

Don Getkey

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

In article <5ropmi$4...@juniper.cis.uab.edu>, hy...@crafty.cis.uab.edu
(Robert Hyatt) writes:

Well at least we know "one" of the "Hyatt's" is married, ;-)

As for the interests and hobbies of *this* observing participant of rgcc
(not that anyone might care), I have a fondness for motorcycles,
financial planning, golf, fine food, writing, family activities, racing of
all sorts, NFL Football, and God. But not neccessarily in that order.

In fact, my chess interests, computer or otherwise, are quite limited by
comparison. It may very well be the attraction, i.e. exclusivity of an
activity. Not many of my golf,racing,football,Christian,etc., friends,
play chess or know anything about it.

I kinda like that.

yours in chess,
Don

Ramsey MN USA

miK

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

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york...@sympaticon.ca wrote:

[ 8< ------ >8 ]

>>Let me tell you one very important factor. The Dutch fortunately had a
>>real world champion in chess in modern times. No other west european
>>country had one!
>>
>>All these Anderssen, Lasker and Steinitz came from the East or Austria.
>>
>>I think that teaches you a lot.

>What does it teach us?

We Dutch are Slavs in disguise.

mic

>>Take one of the ff out to respond to proper email address<<

brucemo

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

Rolf W. Tueschen wrote:
>
> brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

> >Your posts do have great impact though.
>
> Oh sure. For your brown nose too.

Hi Rolf!

bruce

mclane

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

Tord Kallqvist Romstad <tor...@hrotti.ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>Marty? Interesting...
>What instrument does he play?

He played piano in Den Haag.

As artificial as Mchess.

brucemo

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

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mclane wrote:
>
> Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:

> >CSTAL's project is beginning to look like Botvinnik's
> >project.

False. It is nothing like Botvinnik's project. Their thing
exists, I have seen it, I have seen it play complete games, I
have seen it make an idiot out of itself, I have seen it find
good stuff.

Botvinnik's program is not known for sure to have played a
single complete game, with anyone, ever.

Perhaps it did exist, but nobody ever saw it.

bruce

Carl Tillotson

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

In article <01bc9c47$98a82a20$83216dc2@ei>, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:

> I know you are. And it shows. Mine was a generalization, risky as all
> generalizations. I didn't include everybody in it.

If this is all you could say, why post the whole message. It is easy to do a
little bit of editing before sending. Like how I have done above !

Carlos
******
Email : Remove XSPAM before replying.
Lancashire Chess Association Homepage
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lca/index.htm

Message Written Offline with Virtual Access 4.0 Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:57 +0100

mclane

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

to

Ed Schroder <rebc...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Ed is a member of the 'Full Gospel Church' which is something between the
>Pentecost Church and the Baptist Church, at least here in Holland. Don't
>know about other countries...

Can somebody explain me, or can you explain to me in what this church
believes ?
I have no idea about what you talk. In germany we have (besides some
sects) protestants and catholics. Also some Neu-Apostolische and
Zeugen Jehova. But never heard of your churches. In what do they
believe ?
That would be interesting for me.

>Ah, I have done several interviews where (mostly at the end) the journalist
>asks about my belief and if I answer I do they start to look funny, they
>become nervous and a few of them even asked, 'how can that be such an
>intelligent guy like you?'

Intelligence has nothing to do with believing in GOD. Only
left-brain-people do believe that if somebody is intelligent, he has
to be atheist.
Only if I believe in aristotelic logic of (a+b)*c=x I will have
problems with intelligent people who claim they believe.

>I took it as a compliment :))

>- Ed Schroder -

>: Further elucidation ...... ?

>: Chris Whittington

mclane

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Jul 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/31/97

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Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:

>mclane wrote:

>> The "nice things" about cstal is something that cannot be copied. It
>> is the way it evaluates the position, and the way it plays.
>> Also HOW it does compute.
>>
>> If all chess programs are actors, than cstal is maybe like marlon
>> brando.
>> Or hardy krueger. Or william shatner. Or monty cliff.
>> It is somehow different than the others and goes its own ways.
>>
>> Of yourse other actors like spencer tracy and james stewart are
>> "better", bigger or more famous. But ...
>>
>> >>Too bad it is just vapourware.
>>
>> >That's very nice of you Senor Komputer.
>>
>> >Would you like me to release it now ?
>>
>> Chris - can somebody exlpain to me what VAPOURWARE is ??
>>
>> >:)))))))))))
>>
>> >Chris Whittington

> Well if CSTAL is playing so great and wonderful and magical and all
>that, I wonder why it's beta testing has broken all records for length
>of time.

We are working on it much longer than the beta-testing time.
Years by know. Take a look in the swedish rating list for the first
appearance of complete chess system. Than substract the 1997 - this
year and you know how many years work is in this program.
The reason why we work for so long is, because it is very very
difficult to stabilize / balance a saccing program that it not relying
on search but on static-evaluations and does only a few nps.
Also the way chris works has something to do with it, but this is
something you cannot measure.

> Maybe you think that users will buy CSTAL for its unique and
>wonderful sacrifices, but others will scoff at the unsoundness of most
>of them.

I am not interested if people buy it or not. I don't say it is a
monster. Nor do I say it will be a best seller. I show games and try
to explain why it is different.

>The true attraction of CSTAL is the features like the opening
>book editor and database capability and the face that changes
>expression depending on who is better and the 12 scoring parameters and
>all the other stats and ind info that you get on screen plus the great
>3D.

Good to know that you know better WHAT is the big attraction. Next
time when I don't know, I will ask you. I am not interested in the
user-interface. It has not changed since a long time. I have worked
out several feature with the programmers and chris and tried to
influence them to make this and that. But my main interest is not the
I/O but the engine.
Complete chess system had database functions too.
Of course we tried to make the features WORKABLE in practical play.
Features you cannot use are senseless. Still there are many things to
change, from my point of view. But each program has its own character
and each programmers has its own feelings. If all programs would been
made by the testers, they would all look the same.
In many points chris don't wanted to change something. This is his
right.
If you like the features or not, this depends on your personal
feelings and wishes, often the cultural background and the reason you
bought it. I have worked on the features, but also on the engine. But
the engine is the reason it took so long.

> I could go on and on about CSTAL, but if it remains vapourware for
>much longer it's great features and interface will be surpassed by other
>programs.

This has been done a few years before. Many features of cstal have
been copied or overtaken by other programs. E.g. Fritz4 was a shock to
me, because they realized many things I wanted to realize with chris,
but he always said: no - not yet, later, no - we don't need this
feature. I am sure other programmers do not sleep and I am also sure
fritz5 has much more features than fritz4.
But perfectionism is very difficult to stop.

>If CSTAL plays too many bad moves ( sacs or not) users will
>shy away from it for analysis.

Right. But how often CSTal finds something , no other program would
find ?
I think the best way to analyse is to have a program like CSTal and
the normal programs like Genius/Fritz.

Together it should be a good way to analyse.
Ingo will maybe find out about...

> What Chris should have been doing is make
>it play a little more conservative so that it was strong enough to
>release.

We are working exactly on this field.
But it is very difficult because he changes the program any day very
big ways. I guess the version we have now (version265) has nice
results against Genius5 and Fritz3/Nimzo3.5. I like this. It still
sacs, and has good scores against the main important programs and also
plays nice human chess.

Please don't forget we are using day by day autoplayers and the
autoplayer results of all testers involved.
Also don't forget about:

The legal commercial user will be allowed to download the actual
version from the Oxford Server whenever he wants.
He can collect our further daily work and use its famous engine.
I have collected at least 265 or more engines. They are numbered and
only the peak of the iceberg of what chris has builded.
I guess this is one main important service. You buy one program and
can download the in-progress-work of a team of developers.
So you are always IN like with Crafty. I think this is a nice
"feature/service" and I hope i can share many versions and impressions
of many people in time.

>People will buy it for the features if it is not too weak.

If it kills the concurrent programs it can't be that weak at all. Of
course there could be games where the sac is not working. If you don't
risk something, you will never get your chances realized/done.

> Your
>testing to try to make it stronger and at the same time to keep it
>sacrificing as often as possible is obviously not working.

Aha. Again you know better what I do than I do myself. If we would
believe that it isn't working, we would have stopped earlier ?!
I don't see that is is NOT working. Ask the people we have played in
Den Haag last aegon tournament - if it works.
Ask Mchess, Cilk-chess 1 cpu, xxxx2, ... or look in the games the year
before, i have posted them here...

If it would not work, why do our opponents look that much depressed ?
If it would not work, why has Genius lost in paderborn ??
I still see the eyes of the operators, when CSTal sacced ... ask
Alpha-team, or Zeus-team, or Junior-operator, or XXXX (despite the
underpromotion-bug the game was ok), ...

If it would not work, how do we do the results in life-tournaments ?
Hynothise the enemies ?? Pay them ??

> You are
>running around in circles as even Chris has admitted that there is so
>much asymmetry in CSTAL

I don't understand what you understand with ASYMMETRY ??

There is no "much" asymmetry in cstal ?
What do you speak about ??
We balance the evaluations, because THEY decide about the move.
If the search would be the master of decision, anything would be much
easier.

>that any change you make has almost unfathomable
>consequences.

Right. A little change in the static-evaluations changes the program
completely.
WHY ? Because chess system tal does not rely on SEARCH, but on
evaluations. I still see Chrilly Donningers face from last Aegon
tournament. CSTal sacced against him and after all it was "only" a
draw. He asked for the evaluation when the sac came. I said: +3,76 or
something high. He : but if the plot is only a draw, why it is
evaluating 3,76 ?? He was unable to believe that our program relies on
evaluations instead of search. Of course it has a search, but not to
find out about the TRUTH ! Accuracy is for the opponents. They have to
show/defend that our visions/attacks don't work. But cstal does not
use the search to find out the truth. It finds out about the visions.
This makes changes highly difficult. Because the changes result
DIRECTLY the chosen moves. No search buffers or heals the
misevaluations. Or only to a certain but low degree.

This is the risk. This is the NEW thing.
Tapered forward pruning. Speculative play. I would call this
b-strategy. We know from history when David Levy tried it in Mark5 and
Philidor6.

>CSTAL's project is beginning to look like Botvinnik's
>project.

Ah - this was never our intention. But - of course - somebody has to
continue his (Botwinniks) efforts, of course.
There is one main difference between Pioneer and CSTal:
The appearance. CSTal is known by several beta-testers.
Has participated many tournaments. It played nice games. Not winning
anything, but not loosing anything on the other hand.
It sacced. It can play a whole game of chess.
Also it has a nice conviniant interface. So what is the link to
Botvinnik ?? If we would like to copy him, we have time. 10 or 20 more
years to "release" it....

If there is ONE evidence that we are not doing it because chris wants
to make money...

Thanks for your ideas and comments anyway.

Tom Kerrigan

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

: : - Why people in computer chess are so extraordinarily suspicious, even on
: : the verge of paranoia.
: I don't think it is worse than in other areas.

In fact, better, depending on who you call computer chess people. Notice
that the programmers generally adhere to Occam's razor like a religious
cult, whereas the testers all seem to be WAY funky. I think the better
question is, why does computer chess attract so many totally psychotic
people who seem to have no skills other than blithering on endlessly
about their computer chess conspiracy theories? And making lists for
stupid people and posting them on r.g.c.c. :)

Cheers,
Tom

P.S. Chris, I don't think sex got nearly enough attention in your
priority list. :)

Enrique Irazoqui

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

Carl Tillotson <l...@XSPAMnetcomuk.co.uk> escribió en artículo
<VA.0000012b.00779571@dad>...

> In article <01bc9c47$98a82a20$83216dc2@ei>, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>
> > I know you are. And it shows. Mine was a generalization, risky as all
> > generalizations. I didn't include everybody in it.
>
> If this is all you could say, why post the whole message. It is easy to
do a
> little bit of editing before sending. Like how I have done above !

I don't see your logic. Chris's active interest in many topics has been
obvious in many of his postings. You should have edited much more.

> Carlos

Ed Schroder

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

From: mcl...@prima.ruhr.de (mclane)

: Ed Schroder <rebc...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
: >Ed is a member of the 'Full Gospel Church' which is something between the
: >Pentecost Church and the Baptist Church, at least here in Holland. Don't
: >know about other countries...

: Can somebody explain me, or can you explain to me in what this church
: believes ?
: I have no idea about what you talk. In germany we have (besides some
: sects) protestants and catholics. Also some Neu-Apostolische and
: Zeugen Jehova. But never heard of your churches. In what do they
: believe ?
: That would be interesting for me.

Just in the Bible...

- Ed Schroder -

: >Ah, I have done several interviews where (mostly at the end) the journalist

chrisw

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Ed Schroder <rebc...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<5rs9v5$guf$1...@thor.wirehub.nl>...

> From: mcl...@prima.ruhr.de (mclane)
>
> : Ed Schroder <rebc...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> : >Ed is a member of the 'Full Gospel Church' which is something between
the
> : >Pentecost Church and the Baptist Church, at least here in Holland.
Don't
> : >know about other countries...
>
> : Can somebody explain me, or can you explain to me in what this church
> : believes ?
> : I have no idea about what you talk. In germany we have (besides some
> : sects) protestants and catholics. Also some Neu-Apostolische and
> : Zeugen Jehova. But never heard of your churches. In what do they
> : believe ?
> : That would be interesting for me.
>
> Just in the Bible...

Do I sense a parallel between the two magics ?

In the bible or in the hash table ?

The intricacies of either are available only to magician-priests.

There's a lot more data in there, if only we knew how to get at it.

Both are intrinsically unquestionable, in that they don't provide
explanations, instead just unquestionable facts.

Both store historical information intended as a guide for the future.

etc. etc.

Chris Whittington

Rolf W. Tueschen

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>mclane wrote:
>>
>> Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:

>> >CSTAL's project is beginning to look like Botvinnik's
>> >project.

>False. It is nothing like Botvinnik's project. Their thing

>exists, I have seen it, I have seen it play complete games, I
>have seen it make an idiot out of itself, I have seen it find
>good stuff.

>Botvinnik's program is not known for sure to have played a
>single complete game, with anyone, ever.

>Perhaps it did exist, but nobody ever saw it.

Bruce, let me make clear that your statement is confusing. Your wording
is shaky itself.

See, "is not known for sure" isn't a statement of scientifical standard.
You could state "there's no recorded data published in western
papaers/mags" but you cannot state what you wrote. Because how did you
check this? Only god could write what you stated ... :)

Also the second statement. "Nobody ever saw it." This is also very
shaky. I made this point already in our last year's discussion.

If we in the west, in USA, haven't seen any data, you're not allowed to
talk about "nobody". How did you check this?

`Last year I wrote that Botvinnik had to work in times of cold war.
Period.

And that explains a lot. Then after the 1989 events he was older and
older. But he was handled by western institutions "as if" expert from
the East. *Nobody* made his point of critic straight into his
direction/face. WHY??

Not to forget the smear action against an over 80 y. old man in german
Computer Schach und spiele of Frederic Friedel.

But let me speculate a little further. We know that after the end of the
cold war not all concurrence is finished. The Russians surely have their
own science and "industry" but less and less money. How do _you_ know
that for instance Kasparov only played the big show-match against DB to
get as much information for their side as possible?? How do you know
that a "loss" really is a loss speaking in terms of informational win?

For me the brute force attempt for computer chess is not at all finished
with a clear "all is shown by now, we can go to the next fields, -- like
the IBM team seems to argue". Not at all. For me this solution is still
NOT sufficient for the game of chess. Brute force can't solve the game
of chess at least in the next 30 years or so; in my mind NEVER.

Chess isn't solved by brute force attempts. And I think Kasparov proved
this already very convincingly. DB made way too many errors.

So, for me the question isn't answered at all if the "win" of last May
isn't a *loss* for us computer chess freaks because the money stops to
roll. Whereas the top question "is there a *knowledge* solution" in
computer chess isn't answered at all.

I wished many more top experts would research things like Whittington
does. He shouldn't been laughed at but praised instead.

The march along the ever climbing P5, P6, ALPHA and whatelse ladder
maybe technically demanding but human spirit longs for a solution in the
other mentioned direction ...

Rolf Tueschen

>bruce

Bill Newton

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

In article <01bc9d2a$40a56660$c308...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk>,
chrisw <chr...@cpsoft.demon.co.uk> writes

>Korner loves to string long words together.
>
>Shame they never mean anything :)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What an interesting if rather naive comment Christopher.

I find it very surprising that your frequent responses to KKs postings
are made despite you now confessing that you fail to understand
what he's saying!

You should be mindful that one cannot comment sensibly with that
he fails to understand!

I suspect also that your bosom buddy 'McLane' has similar difficulty
comprehending KKs postings, hence the fractured comments of
abuse that he continually posts slagging KK.

Oddly enough though, I believe that both yourself and 'Macca' ( that's
you McLane) are talented chappies, so I hope you wont be offended
when I suggest that rather than wasting time pointlessly slagging folk
off, you concentrate your talents on producing what will certainly
become a legend in your own mind, CSTAL ;-)

Know what I mean?

Regards.
--
Bill Newton

Carl Tillotson

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

In article <01bc9e4f$634fa420$06216dc2@ei>, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:

> I don't see your logic. Chris's active interest in many topics has been
> obvious in many of his postings. You should have edited much more.

Obviously my point goes right across those who can't be bothered to edit
correctly.

I will spell it out, the point was merely this. In a posting that consisted
of 173 lines, Chris's total contribution was 2 lines !

I am not suggesting that Chris refrain from making his interesting
contributions, I am merely pointing out that I would rather continue to read
Chris's comments, however, if he persists on making replies which include the
WHOLE of the text he is replying to then I, no doubt like many others who get
pissed off with this lack of netiquette, will have no alternative to add his
name to the Usenet kill file.

Carlos
******
Email : Remove XSPAM before replying.
Lancashire Chess Association Homepage
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lca/index.htm

Message Written Offline with Virtual Access 4.0 Fri, 01 Aug 1997 11:43 +0100

Carl Tillotson

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

to

In article <01bc9e4f$634fa420$06216dc2@ei>, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:

> You should have edited much more.

Like you did in posting the reply to different groups !

Carlos
******
Email : Remove XSPAM before replying.
Lancashire Chess Association Homepage
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lca/index.htm

Message Written Offline with Virtual Access 4.0 Fri, 01 Aug 1997 11:50 +0100

chrisw

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Aug 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/1/97

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--
http://www.demon.co.uk/oxford-soft

Carl Tillotson <l...@XSPAMnetcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article
<VA.00000154.00077b47@dad>...

> In article <01bc9e4f$634fa420$06216dc2@ei>, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>

> > I don't see your logic. Chris's active interest in many topics has
been
> > obvious in many of his postings. You should have edited much more.
>
> Obviously my point goes right across those who can't be bothered to edit
> correctly.
>
> I will spell it out, the point was merely this. In a posting that
consisted
> of 173 lines, Chris's total contribution was 2 lines !
>
> I am not suggesting that Chris refrain from making his interesting
> contributions, I am merely pointing out that I would rather continue to
read
> Chris's comments, however, if he persists on making replies which include
the
> WHOLE of the text he is replying to then I, no doubt like many others who
get
> pissed off with this lack of netiquette, will have no alternative to add
his
> name to the Usenet kill file.

It will be my pleasure to be in your kill file, Senor.

Here's your post another few zillion times just to encourage you ......

Bye bye :)))))