I had the EXACT SAME PROBLEM with TWO copies of this same clock. I finally
exchanged it for a Chronos. Interestingly, when I suggested to the USCF
that they had a design defect on their hands, they assured me that this was
not the case and that they had not heard of the same problem from others.
There is a word to use to describe that assurance, but you can figure it
out for yourself.
Needless to say, I have nothing good to say about the USCF digital game
timer. OTOH, I love my Chronos.
Randy Bauer
>> <Excalibur clock glitches>
I had the same problem with my Excalibur clock
when I first bought it. What I did was open it
up and bend the internal metal parts a bit so
that they worked better. It messed up 50% of the
time before the fix and hasn't messed up once
since the fix.
Paul
pa...@ccnet.com
I had SIX of those clocks (they were going to be used as tournament
prizes) and they all had the same defect. They are supposed to be fixing
that now. They did admit that others had reported this problem. They
refunded my money on the clocks.
--
Lee LaFrese "Chief head of the department
laf...@goodnet.com of redundancy department"
_______________________________________________________________________________
You mean you yourself opened it up? Why? Why not just exchange the clock
or return it and get a decent one? What did Excalibur say (if you called
them)?
--
vi...@netcom.com
I had a similar problem with the same clock this past weekend while playing
blitz. The clock we were using there had a problem with having to push the
plunger down all the way, which is easy to miss during blitz. The plunger
seemed to stick quite a bit. So this seems to make three of us. Later on, I
played a 30/60 game with a different copy of the clock, without any
problems of the sort. I must say, though, that I kept a very close watch on
the time. I am thinking about getting the Saitek, as the Chronos seems
rather bulky to me (it looks like military equipment from the 60's), but
maybe I should not just buy a clock based on looks.
--
Ed Suastegui
http://home.earthlink.net/~esuastegui/eschess
"Once upon a time, chess players would gather at coffee houses.
Now, they ponder chess over a cup of Java."
It is languishing in my bedroom somewhere, and I am never using it again.
And I have exercised my privilege as an employee of Manhattan Chess
Club/ACF Chess Shop and reserved a clock from the next shipment of
Chronos. ;)
USCF ought to be ashamed of themselves for having endorsed and marketed
such a piece of shit.
~Joshua Bromberg
When I first saw the Chronos a few weeks ago, my first thought was
that it was a piece of custom-made laboratory equipment. Then my
second thought was that somebody was making these in their garage.
Turns out that my second thought was essentially correct.
Looks aside, the Chronos looks like it's a pain to program. It's got
only one setup button and I've seen this touted as a feature. I
watched a guy who was very experienced with it and it took him thirty
seconds to set up a G/30 control. You use the setup button in
combination with the 'move' buttons, pressing them in various
sequences and combinations to get what you want.
The Saitek, on the other hand, has a button for each type of control
(blitz, hourglass, tournament, etc.) and you just keep pressing the
particular button to cycle through preset controls. Press blitz once
and you get G/5. Again is G/10, then G/20, then G/30, and G/60. If
you want G/120 (not a preset), you have to press 'blitz' then one of
the two setup buttons... from there it's just like setting a digital
watch. One button increments the current number (hour, minute,
second) and the other button moves to the next number.
The Saitek can store a single user-defined control. (They really
should have provided five or so memory slots.) But at least you can
set up the control for this weekend's tournament and store it... then
setting up the clock takes a single button-press.
On the other hand, and this is a big one, the new Chronos does
time-delay. The Saitek doesn't have time-delay, and although it has
Bronstien mode (essentially the same as a time-delay), Bronstein mode
cannot be used with tournament time controls, such as 40/120, SD/60.
Overall, I'm very happy with my Saitek, but disappointed that it
doesn't do time-delay when time-delay in sudden death has been a
preferred method of the USCF for several years.
(And some people will argue that the clock should not stop running
when time is reached, which the Saitek does. I think it should and
the USCF rules imply that this is okay, as the clock is impartial and
will signal the 'flag drop' for both players with equal accuracy and
fairness.)
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
Don't bother pressing that key, there is no Esc.
: I had a similar problem with the same clock this past weekend while playing
: blitz. The clock we were using there had a problem with having to push the
: plunger down all the way, which is easy to miss during blitz. The plunger
I don't see a problem with this. The Master Quartz was the same way. I
think you *should* have to pay attention to make sure you press the clock
completely. It penalizes blitz players who are in the habit of banging
the hell out of the thing -- which is good. Also, it's designed for
time-delay, so you should have time on each move to check that you've
pressed the clock correctly.
The inkompetent komputer
If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out before replying.
Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
The rules have *never* allowed a separate clock to be used in human/
computer games. Computers have been allowed to play under "blind
player" rules by having an operator, but that is the only concession
ever granted. Letting the machine use its own clock would leave a
world of room for cheating, not to mention what would happen if the
machine/program crashes, etc...
The whole point of this rule (which the USCF also has) is that somebody
has to *look* at the clock to know that time has run out because
mechanical clocks don't have any kind of audible signal or ability to
indicate which clock ran out of time first. The rule exists because of
inadequacies in the clock. If both players ignore the clock and both
flags fall, it is impossible to determine which flag fell first.
Digital clocks do not have these inadequacies. They are capable of
giving an audible signal and of stopping both clocks... there is never
the possibility of ambiguity concerning which flag dropped first. The
clock is an impartial observer, favoring neither player, and should be
allowed to signal the falling of the flag.
Digital clocks should not be crippled by forcing them to emulate
mechanical clock inadequacies.
USCF rule 42B:
Signaling devices. A clock that calls attention to the fall of the
flag with a special noise or light is both legal and highly
desirable, providing it causes no disturbance to other players. The
prohibition against anyone but the two players calling a flag down
does not applly to a clock, which can carry out this function
thoroughly and impartially. Likewise, a clock in which the fall of
one flag prevents the other from falling is both legal and desirable,
avoiding the possibility of the both-flags-down draw of 14G or 16T.
If FIDE has no such exception and FIDE and USCF rules are "dangerously
out of sync" then it is FIDE which needs to do some modernizing of their
rules. Someone recently praised the brevity of FIDE law when compared
to USCF rules... and this is one of the reasons that FIDE law is so
brief: it fails to address valid concerns such as this.
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
My reality check just bounced.
The digital clocks that I am familiar with do not make an audible
signal either. They do however have visual signals. The USCF digital
has a flag that flashes and a light that blinks and the FIDE Clock has
a signal that beeps when a person reaches the 5 minute mark of the
time control. I'm relatively certain that neither the Saitek Clock,
nor the Chronos Clock have an actual alarm that would indicate that a
person's flag has fallen as this in my opinion would not be a
desirable feature.
The rule exists because of
> inadequacies in the clock. If both players ignore the clock and both
> flags fall, it is impossible to determine which flag fell first.
It is the responsibility of the players to notice if their
opponent's flag has fallen. If both flags are down it is a moot point
as to whose flag fell first as the game is a draw.
>
> Digital clocks do not have these inadequacies. They are capable of
> giving an audible signal and of stopping both clocks... there is never
> the possibility of ambiguity concerning which flag dropped first. The
> clock is an impartial observer, favoring neither player, and should be
> allowed to signal the falling of the flag.
>
> Digital clocks should not be crippled by forcing them to emulate
> mechanical clock inadequacies.
>
> USCF rule 42B:
>
> Signaling devices. A clock that calls attention to the fall of the
> flag with a special noise or light is both legal and highly
> desirable, providing it causes no disturbance to other players. The
> prohibition against anyone but the two players calling a flag down
> does not applly to a clock, which can carry out this function
> thoroughly and impartially. Likewise, a clock in which the fall of
> one flag prevents the other from falling is both legal and desirable,
> avoiding the possibility of the both-flags-down draw of 14G or 16T.
>
> If FIDE has no such exception and FIDE and USCF rules are "dangerously
> out of sync" then it is FIDE which needs to do some modernizing of their
> rules. Someone recently praised the brevity of FIDE law when compared
> to USCF rules... and this is one of the reasons that FIDE law is so
> brief: it fails to address valid concerns such as this.
>
> --
> Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
> My reality check just bounced.
Best Regards,
Bruce
> The digital clocks that I am familiar with do not make an audible
>signal either. They do however have visual signals. The USCF digital
>has a flag that flashes and a light that blinks and the FIDE Clock has
>a signal that beeps when a person reaches the 5 minute mark of the
>time control. I'm relatively certain that neither the Saitek Clock,
>nor the Chronos Clock have an actual alarm that would indicate that a
>person's flag has fallen as this in my opinion would not be a
>desirable feature.
The Saitek does have an audible alarm, but it can be turned off. The
Saitek does flash "00:00" [i.e., it blinks] when time expires. Some
see this as a drawback, but I am not so sure. The old Kaisha used to
just reset, and start counting down again. In a blitz game, you might
not realize that time had expired even if you are looking at it.
Overall the Saitek is a great piece of engineering design. The major
flaw, as has been pointed out, is that you cannot program an
incremental control as a secondary or tertiary control. I was really
upset about this when I first got it, but it is so superior in every
way to all other clocks [including price--84.95 from R&D!], that I am
not so upset anymore. You can use the Bronstein or incremental mode
in G/x modes though. I have been using the Bronstein with 3 sec
increment in action games, with no complaints from the director or
opponents.
The setting of different time controls is trivial, and most that you
would want are preset. Having the ability to have three timecontrols
is great. It is really sturdy, and has stood up very well to a lot of
pounding blitz.
After every tournament game I have played with it, my opponent has
asked where he can get one.
Best,
==Dondo
"He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous."
Julius Caesar, Act I, Sc. 2.
The inkompetent komputer
If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out before replying.
Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
Bruce Draney <bdr...@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us> wrote in article
<342562...@esu3.esu3.k12.ne.us>...
> Carl D. Cravens wrote:
.
>
> It is the responsibility of the players to notice if their
> opponent's flag has fallen. If both flags are down it is a moot point
> as to whose flag fell first as the game is a draw.
>
> >
> > Digital clocks do not have these inadequacies. They are capable of
> > giving an audible signal and of stopping both clocks... there is never
> > the possibility of ambiguity concerning which flag dropped first. The
> > clock is an impartial observer, favoring neither player, and should be
> > allowed to signal the falling of the flag.
> >
> > Digital clocks should not be crippled by forcing them to emulate
> > mechanical clock inadequacies.
Isn't the Saitek's Bonus Timer feature the same (or at least able to
be configured the same) as time delay?
--
Bill
The Saitek beeps eight times and flashes the light and display. (I had
to check, 'cause I always turn the sound off on my Saitek.)
> It is the responsibility of the players to notice if their
>opponent's flag has fallen. If both flags are down it is a moot point
>as to whose flag fell first as the game is a draw.
But only because a mechanical clock cannot indicate which flag fell
first. It is the players responsibility because a mechanical clocks
don't have any kind of attention-getting signal. The rules came *after*
the device... the device wasn't created to fit the rules. Now a new
device that doesn't need those rules has come about... why make the new
device conform to the rules of the previous device?
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
Bonus Timer adds X time to your clock on every move and allows you to
*gain* time if you move in less time than the bonus. If the bonus is 5
seconds and you make your move in 3 seconds, you get 2 extra seconds
next time around. Do this for 30 moves and you'll have added an entire
minute to the time shown on the clock.
Delay and Bronstein methods never allow the time show on the clock to
increase from move to move.
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
I don't know why your opinion would make you certain about the features of
the Saitek and Chronos :). In fact, both clocks do beep and flash when
the time limit is reached. They also stop the clocks, because the game is
over.
> It is the responsibility of the players to notice if their
>opponent's flag has fallen. If both flags are down it is a moot point
>as to whose flag fell first as the game is a draw.
Well, it's time to change the rules to conform to the available
technology. I can't see dumbing down my clock to agree with a rule
conceived in the 19th century.
============================================================
my reply-to address is: schmidt at ust dot hk
============================================================
Roy Schmidt, Assistant Professor | Go
The University of Science and Technology | for
Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong | Go!
http://www.bi.ust.hk/~schmidt
I've played on a Chronos before and while it may have the alarm
features they have been shut off whenever I've used them. I have
played with the USCF clock and know it does not have an audible alarm
although it does have two visual signals to indicate when a game is
over. I sold two FIDE digitals and they had an alarm that beeped
when either player got into time pressure but not when their flag
fell. The Saitek clock which came out just this year is the only one
of the 4 major digitals that I have not personally played on, seen or
sold. The opinion above was regarding the desirability of having an
alarm feature turned on, not about what features the clocks had. How
can you have an opinion about whether or not a clock has a certain
feature? It either does have the feature or it doesn't.
>
> > It is the responsibility of the players to notice if their
> >opponent's flag has fallen. If both flags are down it is a moot point
> >as to whose flag fell first as the game is a draw.
>
> Well, it's time to change the rules to conform to the available
> technology. I can't see dumbing down my clock to agree with a rule
> conceived in the 19th century.
This may or may not be true. This is your opinion. If people
really wanted alarms on their chess clocks, be they analog or digital,
the technology has existed for a long time to provide such a feature.
The real issue here is whether the players should have to notice a
time forfeiture or whether an arbiter or the clock itself should
forfeit a person with or without the players even noticing. We don't
even need an alarm system if we want the time forfeiture to be
automatic, we can just have a director or an arbiter (or a deputy)
stand over a game and forfeit the first person to lose on time if
that's what we want to do. What is so undesirable about having a
player not lose on time because his opponent didn't bother to call his
flag until his own flag is down? That to me is as much a part of a
chess game as allowing the possibility of stalemate to escape a
hopeless position and gain a draw.
>
> ============================================================
> my reply-to address is: schmidt at ust dot hk
> ============================================================
> Roy Schmidt, Assistant Professor | Go
> The University of Science and Technology | for
> Clearwater Bay, Hong Kong | Go!
> http://www.bi.ust.hk/~schmidt
Best Regards,
Bruce
I am having trouble setting up the following:
Tournament game with 2 time controls. 1st - 30 moves in 75 minutes.
2nd - sudden death in 30 minutes with a 5 second time delay.
It appears that with the Saitek clock I must choose either the
Bronstein method (with only 1 time control) or the Tournament method
(with up to 3 time controls). I don't seem to have the option of
incorporating a time delay in my Secondary time control.
From my limited experience in both club and tournament play, most
games require 2 or 3 time controls. "Allegro" or Sudden Death comes
into play in the 2nd or 3rd time control and THIS is precisely where a
digital clock using a time delay option is needed (and preferred by
the USCF).
It is neither practical or desireable to stop the game after the 30th
move in order to write down the remaining time for both players,
change from the Tournament to the Bronstein clock (the option closest
to the "Allegro" settings referred to in the USCF rules), customize
the settings, and manually add the remaining time for each player to
either clock!
Surely someone thought of this when designing the clock?!? Am I
overlooking something? Does anyone out there have experience using the
Saitek clock in similar situations? How do you incorporate a "time
delay" option in a secondary (or tertiary) time control?
Do the USCF, FIDE or CHRONOS clocks have the ability to do what I have
asked above? If so, I might need to send this back before it's too
late.
Thanks for the help."
The above post was not my post. I only posted it here to respond to the
posted newsgroup post.
--
- -
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
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Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
Bill Pemberton <wf...@virginia.edu> wrote in article
<6060u4$3cf$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
> In article <VfAJ0wIe...@southwind.net>,
> Carl D. Cravens <rave...@southwind.net> wrote:
> >
> >On the other hand, and this is a big one, the new Chronos does
> >time-delay. The Saitek doesn't have time-delay, and although it has
> >Bronstien mode (essentially the same as a time-delay), Bronstein mode
> >cannot be used with tournament time controls, such as 40/120, SD/60.
> >
>
> Isn't the Saitek's Bonus Timer feature the same (or at least able to
> be configured the same) as time delay?
>
> --
> Bill
>
Under USCF rules, if time delay is used, it should be used for the
entire game, not just the last time control.
: Do the USCF, FIDE or CHRONOS clocks have the ability to do what I have
: asked above? If so, I might need to send this back before it's too
: late.
Yes, the USCF GameTime clock does have the ability to specify whether
time delay is used for the entire game or only the sudden death portion.
Walter Murray
> I have played with the USCF clock and know it does not have an audible
>alarm ...
The USCF Gametime does have a beeper which can be set to alarm when a time
control is not met. It can even be set to beep as a warning that a time
control is imminent. I've never used the function and suspect it is an option
that most other Gametime owners are ignoring as well.
__________________________________
Paul Gardner gardn...@osu.edu
The inkompetent komputer
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Walter Murray <wal...@hprctbs3.rose.hp.com> wrote in article
<60bm6q$aei$1...@rosenews.rose.hp.com>...