Even more Objective Information
ChessBase GmbH
Mats Winther wrote:
>
> Moreover, I regret what I said about the Fritz5 Correspondence
> analysis. The TascBase version is better since it is iterative. Fritz5
> at some stage stops analysing.
Thats right. You preset the depth in ply or alternatively a time per
move and after some time the analysis terminates. I did an iterative
analysis tree in ChessBase 6.0 but was not entirely happy with the
concept since the knowledge of the previous iteration was lost for a new
iteration so that it turned out less time efficient. Maybe Tasc has done
it more cleverly. I'd be interested to hear more from you how the Fritz
correspondence analysis compares with TascBase since it might lead to
new ideas for us.
>
> Something very irritating in Fritz5 is that if I make a move on the
> board while analysing, a new variation will be created, even if the
> move exists in the game score. This means that I can´t just move
> around the pieces while analysing; I must first check if the variation
> already exists in the gamescore. Otherwise I will be interrupted with
> the question if I want to insert the variation. This is very
> inconvenient.
Press CTRL while moving on the board to start a variation automatically.
Press Shift while moving to overwrite the existing moves without getting
the unwanted query.
--
Mats Wüllenweber
mailto:wuelle...@compuserve.com
http://www.chessbase.com
Please DO NOT mail to 'wuelle...@t-online.de' (dead letter box)
Rolf Tueschen
Wuelle...@t-online.de (ChessBase GmbH) wrote:
>Mats Winther wrote:
>> Something very irritating in Fritz5 is that if I make a move on the
>> board while analysing, a new variation will be created, even if the
>> move exists in the game score. This means that I can´t just move
>> around the pieces while analysing; I must first check if the variation
>> already exists in the gamescore. Otherwise I will be interrupted with
>> the question if I want to insert the variation. This is very
>> inconvenient.
>Press CTRL while moving on the board to start a variation automatically.
>Press Shift while moving to overwrite the existing moves without getting
>the unwanted query.
Mats Tueschen wants to point out as politely as possible.
This is for me a very typical answer/comment on a precisely put
observation where it becomes obvious that the professional view results
in prejudicing, no, more so, in making the certain person completely
blind, methinks.
The observation *was*, and we all could repeat/reconstruct the same,
that if you start a tour in an existing game notation, and you want to
do this by either using your mouse pointer or the "bar" to accept a
Fritz idea/ or heumas, and therefore you give "in" the moves, *then*
Fritz -- this is correct -- has *two* cases in its own view:
Either to overwrite the existing move of the notation or to make a new
variation....
But that was the point of the critic!
Solution simply *is*, that *if* the put move was the same as in the main
variation. *or* also in a sub-variation, this input should be accepted
as a neutral input and the marking spot should walk to the existing
move. Period.
Hope that your Pope could help and mediate between two high ranked
experts. Let's see if I also could become an expert by adopting the
'Mats' symbol. That's how mankind left the ape behind after all....
Your Pope Rolfieje "Mats" the XXII.
Rolf Tueschen
"Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>You are misunderstanding the TASCBASE opening book editor. There actually
>is a temporary editor and a permanent one. What you described is how the
>temporary editor works. Any changes are lost to the next session. The
>permanent opening book editor is tied into the chesstree/screen database
>view where the move editing limit is 29 moves and of which you have to
>change screens to get the analysis of the King. Below is the last word for
>now on opening book editors:
>The Naked Truth about Opening Book Editors - 4th edition
Eeeeeh. What a mess.
Please stop this porn' immediately, Korner.
Your Pope "Cleanje" Rolfieje XXII., the force against all dirt and dust
Komputer Korner
You are misunderstanding the TASCBASE opening book editor. There actually
is a temporary editor and a permanent one. What you described is how the
temporary editor works. Any changes are lost to the next session. The
permanent opening book editor is tied into the chesstree/screen database
view where the move editing limit is 29 moves and of which you have to
change screens to get the analysis of the King. Below is the last word for
now on opening book editors:
The Naked Truth about Opening Book Editors - 4th edition
Every serious chess player who wants to keep up with opening theory has
to
keep in mind that there are problems with every chess opening book editor
on the
market. The major decision is what editor to use and it is predicated on
the necessity
of planning for the future of opening theory and the fact that if a future
conversion is
necessary, that it should be seamless to the user. No one wants to be
constantly duplicating
changes to their opening books as each conversion of your opening data
brings
it's own set of problems. Some of you may be asking just what is an opening
book editor?
Essentially it is a software program that will track input of opening moves
by both sides
so as to present a list of candidate moves for each move node. It is like a
chesstree
except that no game details are stored, just the opening lines and of
these only once.
A good opening editor catches all the transpositions 99% effectively and
automatically
jumps to the previous input position. Move symbols or numbers are allowed
to be
attached to each move so that the user knows which moves are good and which
ones
are bad. So far the one feature that no opening book editor has, is the
ability to track
the transposition paths and actually show all of these on screen.
I scouted the market 3 years ago for an electronic opening book
editor and finally settled on Chess Genius for its ease of use and its
powerful chess
analyzing engine. However the Genius book editor has always had some
serious
limitations which I detail below.
I have just finished my latest survey and have concluded that I should
not switch
opening book editors yet because there isn't a completely satisfactory
editor yet unless
you are willing to start from an empty repertoire and use Bookup ( more on
Bookup below).
. Unfortunately Chess Genius has some major flaws detailed below.
Disadvantages of the Chess Genius opening book editor of which there are
no work arounds are:
1) No pawn promotions allowed
2) 29 move limit in any one variation
3) Maximum of 4 symbols allowed including the blank symbol as one of the 4
symbols
4) The Genius evaluation engine is asymmetrical
5) Cannot create a book from a PGN or database file.
Hiarcs 6 has 4 limitations:
1) Allowable move limit is 31
2) No under promotions are allowed.
3) Opening book editor is not built in to the program. It is a separate
program.
4) Can't create a book from a PGN file nor a database file.
Hiarcs has one unique feature along with Bookup whereby the user does not
have to
cycle through the move evaluations the first time you add a line to the
book.
Nimzo 3.5
Advantages to Nimzo 3.5 opening book editor are :
1) Allows extremely fast converting of Genius opening books which converts
the
- symbol to a ? symbol within the Nimzo opening book editor.
2) Allows pawn promotions
3) Allows unlimited number of moves in a variation
4) Allows 5 symbols including the blank as one of the 5 symbols.
5) Automatic saving of the book
6) The move candidate window is DDE enabled, so that you can click on the
move
in the move window and the board will change.
7) When you are adding moves or variations, there is one less mouse click
than other
programs.
8) After saving a variation, the editor takes you back to the last branch.
9) Importing from Nimzo database
Disadvantages of Nimzo editor compared to Chess Genius opening book
editor:
1) No showing on screen of transposed correct ECO variation.
2) Converts only the - symbol of Genius books and attaches a ! to the most
popular
candidate if there are more than 1 candidates in the Genius book position.
3) The Nimzo engine is slightly weaker than the Genius engine.
4) No figurine notation
5) There are bugs in the Nimzo editor of the program sometimes not saving
all the moves
of a particular variation and the editor sometimes dropping moves from
session to
session even though they have been saved.
The first disadvantage is not critical as usually you will know what ECO
book your
opening is in. The second one is critical and involves a major patch job to
adjust all the
. lines to their actual meaning within Nimzo. The next 2 are not that
important as problems.
The last disadvantage is mission critical.
As you can see the above disadvantages are mission critical and just can't
be worked
around.
There are 2 other opening book editors that I recommend as the best. The
ones I refer
to are the best opening book editors on the market; BOOKUP and the
chesstree book editor of
Fritz 5.
Bookup has 5 advantages over the others:
1) It has a default symbol window which enables automatic attachment of the
symbols to
the moves.
2) Huge comment window attached to each move
3) Allows a maximum of 9 evaluation symbols
4) Has a backsolving feature which you can implement by never using the =
symbol and
instead substituting the =/unclear symbol for it and always checking off
the box that favours
unclear over equality. Backsolving has the advantage of being able to
automatically fill in
all the move nodes of the opening book if all the leaf nodes have been
filled in.
5) Allows automatic saving of the variations.
There are some disadvantages to Bookup of which the first one prevents me
from using it as my
opening book editor of choice, but for new users and especially if you buy
the
premade optional opening books from Bookup, this is the best course of
action.
1) There is no way to convert my Genius Powerbooks to Bookup format.
2) Stability of Bookup books themselves are a question mark, but if you
back them up
all the time you will have no problems. I use the Briefcase within WIN 95
to do this.
3) The Zarkov 4 engine is not quite as strong as the top chess playing
engines.
Fritz 5 has an editable chess tree opening book editor which shows retro
moves .and unplayed moves. You can make a Fritz 5 opening book by importing
a database of games or by mousing in the moves. It has a very high number
of move annotations.
It doesn't allow underpromotions and space requirement is 70 bytes per
position.
There are other opening book editors on the market but each one of them has
critical
limitations.
M-Chess Pro 6 has 3 disadvantages as follows:
1) Each branch involves saving the opening line twice.
2) You can't have the program analyze at the same time as editing the book.
3) No figurine notation
Chessmaster 5000 has an opening book editor which has some very serious
flaws.
1) No chessboard on screen within the editor.
2) Editor is a separate program.
3) Does not show transpositions
4) Does not show the evaluations on the screen thus rendering the whole
concept of a
user editable opening book editor useless.
5) Only 4 symbols allowed
6) There is no way to create a brand new book. You have to take an existing
one and
delete all the moves except one.
7) Cannot create a book from a PGN or database file.
Rebel 8 has a built in opening book editor but again has critical
limitations.
1) Only 2 evaluation symbols are allowed including the blank as one of the
symbols.
2) Does not allow pawn promotions
3) No figurine notation in candidate move window.
4) While editing the book you cannot have the program analyze.
Tascbase has some critical limitations as well:
1) Allows a maximum of 29 moves in the permanent database/opening book
editor view.
2) Unlimited number of alternative moves which you add are allowed in a
separate window of the temporary opening book editor but these last only
for that session.
3) You can't have the program analyze while you are editing the permanent
opening book database.
Power Chess has even more critical limitations in its opening book editor.
1) No evaluation by the computer shown on the screen
2) No candidate move window
3) No move numbers shown in the variation list view.
4) No transpositions caught
5) No deletion of moves or variations in the variation list view.
6) Does not allow creation of a book from a PGN file nor a database file.
Shredder has serious limitations in its' opening book editor.
1) The opening book editor is not GUI interfaced with the program. The user
is
forced to use a text editor in order to edit the book.
2) Each user book can contain a maximum of 2048 moves.
3) You can't create a user book from a PGN file nor a database file.
4) Even though Shredder can convert Genius books, it converts it to the
uneditable
format.
--
- -
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out before replying.
Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
Mats Winther <mats.w...@swipnet.se> wrote in article
<3422b6cb...@nntpserver.swip.net>...
> Why isn't TascBase on KK's list over opening book editors? TascBase
> 2.0:s opening books can be edited while machine analyses. The opening
> books can be visualized by pressing the rightmost function key, you
> can wander around, and you can add ney keys by pressing Ctrl-D, -G,
> -A. And you can delete them in the same manner.
> So, actually, one can see the opening lines while the machine
> analyzes, and one can add and delete them.
>
> Moreover, I regret what I said about the Fritz5 Correspondence
> analysis. The TascBase version is better since it is iterative. Fritz5
> at some stage stops analysing.
>
> Something very irritating in Fritz5 is that if I make a move on the
> board while analysing, a new variation will be created, even if the
> move exists in the game score. This means that I can´t just move
> around the pieces while analysing; I must first check if the variation
> already exists in the gamescore. Otherwise I will be interrupted with
> the question if I want to insert the variation. This is very
> inconvenient.
>
> Mats Winther
>
Komputer Korner
There is one big difference between the correspondence analysis of Fritz 5
and TascBase in that there is much more detailed sub variation analysis
allowed in Fritz 5. Mats' comment that he likes the Tascbase infinite
analysis better is simply not understandable since Fritz allows 99,999
seconds of analysis. For all practical purposes 27 hours of analysis is
enough considering that you can simply run the analysis a 2nd, 3rd or an
infinite number of times on any sub move.
- -
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out before replying.
Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
ChessBase GmbH <Wuelle...@t-online.de> wrote in article
<5vut0b$d9j$1...@news01.btx.dtag.de>...
> Mats Winther wrote:
> >
>
> > Moreover, I regret what I said about the Fritz5 Correspondence
> > analysis. The TascBase version is better since it is iterative. Fritz5
> > at some stage stops analysing.
>
Rolf Tueschen
"Komputer Korner" <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>The other difference between the analysis features of Tascbase 2 and Fritz
>5 is that in Tascbase you must go to a different screen to see the
>analysis.
All true as long as you're talking about Fritz' new feature. Tascbase I
don't know about.
I also find it phantastic. Dont know if all knew this before, but a nice
add here is that the correspondence "deep" analysis of Fritz5 gives
"exact" evaluation input at the end of each (sub)line AND more so it
ranks the different variations following their value. That means the
"best" is also the "main" (sub)variation. At the end of the whole
analysis. This is good to know.
Maybe irritating is the consequence that if it's done in your original
game notation Fritz "changes" the main-line so that your loss suddenly
ends with a "=" variation. Not bad. (I'm just in train to win back my GM
status, because I lost many games due to the new huge opening book, it
knows eeven more than an average "GM". :)) Before saving you simply
change it again by the click on "elevating the variation (I dont know
the english expression)".
What remains a secret for me is this, and I'd like to ask MW for
details.
The evaluations given cant be edited or "seen" in an annotation window
in cb6? Did I miss that somehow? Where did you hide the light blue
numbers? :)
Thanks KK and MW.
Komputer Korner
The other difference between the analysis features of Tascbase 2 and Fritz
5 is that in Tascbase you must go to a different screen to see the
analysis.
- -
Komputer Korner
The inkompetent komputer
If you see a 1 in my email address, take it out before replying.
Please do not email both me and the r.g.c.c. at the same time. I read all
the postings on r.g.c.c.
Komputer Korner <kor...@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<01bcc72c$b777c720$645ab5cf@ALAN>...
ChessBase GmbH
Rolf Tueschen wrote:
> But that was the point of the critic!
>
> Solution simply *is*, that *if* the put move was the same as in the main
> variation. *or* also in a sub-variation, this input should be accepted
> as a neutral input and the marking spot should walk to the existing
> move. Period.
OK.
--
Matthias
ChessBase GmbH
Rolf Tueschen wrote:
> The evaluations given cant be edited or "seen" in an annotation window
in cb6? Did I miss that somehow? Where did you hide the light blue
numbers? :)
This is a special new annotation type: "Fritz evaluation". It is created
by Fritz5 analysis and during a game.
It is not editable. One of the reasons: Engine vs. Engine games store
those values and therefor make computer chess results more transparent.
We dislike naked game scores in computer chess. It invites faking.