Statistical significance of score differences - new release of ChessDB

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Dave

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Aug 17, 2007, 8:52:16 AM8/17/07
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I've made a new release of ChessDB, a chess database based on Scid from
Shane Hudson. There is a fork too of ChessDB from the lying
plagiarist Pascal Georges who passes of work of mine as his own, as I
have documented at:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/browse_frm/thread/658a58d9a17b9aaf/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a?lnk=st&q=scid+released&rnum=1&hl=en#dcb9e3c5e4e7266a

Anyway, the main reason for my post it to introduce a new feature in
ChessDB and I would be interested in comments from others about this.

Basically ChessDB has a tree window, like many databases (Scid,
ChessBase, Chess Assistant etc). But I've added code that will determine
if the difference in score between two moves is really real
('statistically significant') , or if it could be due to chance. (If you
toss a coin 20 times and it lands on heads 12 times and tails 8 times,
you can't deduce the coin is biased) - such a small difference can be
due to chance with only 20 tosses. In contrast, if it landed on the head
19 times and the tail only once, you be pretty sure it is biased.

It is assumed that the difference in score between two moves is not due
to chance if the probability of the observed (or any larger) difference
being due to chance, with no underlying reason, is less than 0.05.

See:

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/tutorial/t_search_tree.php

Some interesting observations can be seen looking at my database of 3.5
million games

1) 1.d4 scores better than 1.e4 with a p-value of less than 0.01. In
other words, the chance of the observed or any large score difference
being due to chance is less than 1%.

2) In my database, the opening move with the highest score is 1.Na3.
Despite the score being a lot higher than 1.e4 or 1.d4, this is *not*
statistically significant. In other words, whilst we can't say it 1.Na3
is any better or worst than 1.e4 or 1.d4, we can say that that there is
a high probability that the observed difference is due to chance. As
such, we should pay very little attention to the relative scores.

3) In my database, 3.Nd2 (Tarrash variation) in the French (1.e4 e6 2.d4
d5) scores higher than 3.Nc3 (main line) and is statistically
significant at the 5% level, but not at the 1% level. In other words, we
can be 95% sure there is a real difference in score between 3.Nf3 and
3.Nd2 in my database, but we can't be 99% sure.

In contrast, the difference in scores of 3.Nf3 (or 3.Nd2) to the
exchange (3.exd5) or advance (3.e5) variations is statistically
significant at the p=0.01 level, so there is less than a 1% chance the
observed difference in score is due to chance and can be more than 99%
sure there is an underlying reason. (The reason can't be determined in
ChessDB, but one might strongly suspect the advance or exchange are
inferior for white than the main line (3.Nc3) or Tarrasch (3.Nd2).

(I personally have a much better success rate with the Tarrasch than the
advance too. I will not contemplate the exchange as it is too boring and
while it is drawish, it scores pretty low for white.)

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of statistics might guess I am using
a chi-squared test, which is what I am doing. Chi-squared is calculated
then the p-value determined from that, using an algorithm good to 4
decimal places. I intend changing that to a more accurate approximation
soon.

Other changes in ChessDB include

* Native support for UCI engines (using some code from P. Georges, which
I fully acknowledge, unlike him when he uses my code).

* The facility to download a database of either 100,000 or 3.5 million
games. The database is split into multiple parts for easy downloading,
then reconstructed by ChessDB and an MD5 checksum used to verify the
database has not been corrupted in transmission.

* Quickly download games from the history of anyone on ICC or FICS.

* Numerous other changes documented at:
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/Scid/

I'm interested in what others think of the idea of testing the
statistical significance in the difference of two moves. To the best of
my knowledge, no other chess database does this, yet it seems to me
quite logical.

Dave

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Aug 17, 2007, 8:55:10 AM8/17/07
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Dave wrote:
> I've made a new release of ChessDB, a chess database based on Scid from
> Shane Hudson.

I forgot to say, if you want to try ChessDB or use it to download a
large database, see:

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/downloads/

Richard

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Aug 17, 2007, 12:10:48 PM8/17/07
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That is a very cool idea for a feature. I haven't used databases much
in general, so I don't know much about existing features, but I could
see how something like that could be very useful to a master trying to
refine their opening preparation. At my patzer level (1400ish USCF),
it's something that could be cool just for the sake of curiousity.

So is this a free program? As I said, I don't know much about chess
databases (which is ironic, since I specialize in SQL databases in my
profession). I'd like to get a database program and a large database
of master and GM games eventually, so I can see how better players
than me handle certain openings and the positions that result from
them. For now, I tend to just go to chesslab.com and look at games
there in the openings I play.

--Fromper

Anonymous

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Aug 17, 2007, 12:18:31 PM8/17/07
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Well, if you like chess databases with a lot of features you can grab
Scid at http://scid.sourceforge.net or http://prolinux.free.fr/scid (the
lattest with some training features, and the ability to play against
various engines).

Richard a écrit :

Pascal

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Aug 17, 2007, 12:38:41 PM8/17/07
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At least other people around the world clearly got who is that guy !!

Pascal

http://prolinux.free.fr/alex_guestbook/
Dave a écrit :

M Winther

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Aug 17, 2007, 12:41:12 PM8/17/07
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Den 2007-08-17 14:52:16 skrev Dave <some...@nowhere-nice.com>:

> I've made a new release of ChessDB, a chess database based on Scid from
> Shane Hudson. There is a fork too of ChessDB from the lying
> plagiarist Pascal Georges who passes of work of mine as his own, as I

> have documented at:..........


Befrore I download it I would like to know whether it handles transpositions, i.e., are
*unplayed* moves visible in the tree that lead to a played position?

Mats

Ralf Callenberg

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Aug 17, 2007, 1:15:43 PM8/17/07
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17.08.2007 14:52, Dave:

> But I've added code that will determine
> if the difference in score between two moves is really real
> ('statistically significant') , or if it could be due to chance.

Two important factors are completely ignored in this calculation:
development over time and strength of the involved players. The first is
important because once a refuation or at least a very strong answer for
a move is found, its frequency drops. So, the old statistics of this
move stay unchanged over a long time - possibly with a favourable result
for this move, although it might be well known that this move should be
avoided.

The second factor is quite obvious: games of higher rated players tend
to be less erratic, so that those results are more expressive.
Therefore, if I look at numbers, I check the average Elo and the
performance.

Greetings,
Ralf

Dave

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Aug 17, 2007, 3:25:26 PM8/17/07
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Anonymous wrote:
> Well, if you like chess databases with a lot of features you can grab
> Scid at http://scid.sourceforge.net or http://prolinux.free.fr/scid (the
> lattest with some training features, and the ability to play against
> various engines).

And the latter of which has code taken from ChessDB but not acknowledged.

Dave

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Aug 17, 2007, 3:41:22 PM8/17/07
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Richard wrote:
> That is a very cool idea for a feature.

I'm glad you like it.

> I haven't used databases much
> in general, so I don't know much about existing features, but I could
> see how something like that could be very useful to a master trying to
> refine their opening preparation. At my patzer level (1400ish USCF),
> it's something that could be cool just for the sake of curiousity.
>
> So is this a free program?

Yes, its open source and free.

homepage
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/

tutorial
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

download page:
http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/downloads/

> As I said, I don't know much about chess
> databases (which is ironic, since I specialize in SQL databases in my
> profession). I'd like to get a database program and a large database
> of master and GM games eventually, so I can see how better players
> than me handle certain openings and the positions that result from
> them.

If you download it, then go to the Tools menu, Select "Download games
from" then select "3.5 million games site #1" it will download you a 3.5
million game database.


For now, I tend to just go to chesslab.com and look at games
> there in the openings I play.

Well with 3.5 million you have quite a few. ChessDB also has the
facility to download from The Week In Chess (TWIC), so you can update
the database every week (usually a Monday), when new games are added to
TWIC. See:

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/tutorial/twic-retriveal.php

(The program has an http client to connect to the external sources of
data. There is also a telnet client which is used to download games from
FICS and ICC).

I do have a larger database, which I could make available, but as
databases get larger, the quality of the games goes down.

Dave

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Aug 17, 2007, 3:43:29 PM8/17/07
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M Winther wrote:

> Befrore I download it I would like to know whether it handles
> transpositions, i.e., are
> *unplayed* moves visible in the tree that lead to a played position?
>
> Mats
>

Yes. It shown positions, not moves. Hence sometimes you will find there
are no games in the database at move 5, but by move 6 there are thousands.

Pascal

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Aug 17, 2007, 5:01:47 PM8/17/07
to
Dave a écrit :

Pure lies, but if you want you can put all Pocket PC code I wrote and
available on my site, change the name from PocketScid to DK_sucker, and
put your (C) on files where you did not change one byte.

You are used to it. This is what you did first with Scid, and this is
why I stayed few days tuned with you.

Richard

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Aug 17, 2007, 7:13:21 PM8/17/07
to

As I understand the original poster, I think his program looks at the
games in whatever database of games you're tell it to determine these
statistics. If you feed it a database that only has grandmaster games
from the last 5 years, then it will give you statistics based only on
those games.

Or am I misunderstanding the original post?

Personally, playing in the U1600 sections of tournaments, I'd like to
see statistics on what the most common responses by players rated
1400-1600 are to certain moves in the openings I play. That will tell
me what I really need to prepare for, regardless of how strong it is.

--Richard

Ralf Callenberg

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Aug 17, 2007, 9:01:58 PM8/17/07
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18.08.2007 01:13, Richard:

> If you feed it a database that only has grandmaster games
> from the last 5 years, then it will give you statistics based only on
> those games.

That'd be a workaround.

>I'd like to
> see statistics on what the most common responses by players rated
> 1400-1600 are to certain moves in the openings I play. That will tell
> me what I really need to prepare for, regardless of how strong it is.
>

For this you only need the absolute number, but not some statistical
measures.

Greetings,
Ralf

Dave

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Aug 18, 2007, 2:08:44 AM8/18/07
to
Richard wrote:

> As I understand the original poster, I think his program looks at the
> games in whatever database of games you're tell it to determine these
> statistics. If you feed it a database that only has grandmaster games
> from the last 5 years, then it will give you statistics based only on
> those games.
>

Yes, that is true. However, there is a problem in this case, as the
number of games one is likely to have in a database will drop
dramatically. It may then not be possible to show statistical significance.

> Or am I misunderstanding the original post?

No, I think you understood it correctly.

> Personally, playing in the U1600 sections of tournaments, I'd like to
> see statistics on what the most common responses by players rated
> 1400-1600 are to certain moves in the openings I play. That will tell
> me what I really need to prepare for, regardless of how strong it is.

That is exactly why I added the facility in ChessDB some time back to
collect data from the ICC chess server - see screenshot at

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/tutorial/icc-fics-retriveal.php

It allows you to collect data from players in your own rating range and
of specific players you might expect to meat. However, ICC have a limit
on their database so that after one has downloaded 100 games, their
database slows down and refuses to give games too quickly. I don't know
exactly what time limits they interpose, but I think one is limited to
about 1 game every 30 seconds or so, once the 100 has been reached.

Dave

Dave

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Aug 18, 2007, 4:01:41 AM8/18/07
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Pascal wrote:

>> And the latter of which has code taken from ChessDB but not acknowledged.
>
> Pure lies, but if you want you can put all Pocket PC code I wrote and

Rather than say "Pure lies" why not address the SPECIFIC I have raised
before?

I posted 9 SPECIFIC EXAMPLES before at:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/browse_thread/thread/658a58d9a17b9aaf/371410985ca374d4?lnk=st&q=scid+chess+pascal&rnum=1&hl=en#371410985ca374d4

But I'll ask you a few questions about the following 3 lines in your
very latest (3.6.18) plagiarised version of 'Scid' from the file
src/textbuf.h.

------------------------------------------
// void ClearTranslation (char ch) { Translation[ch] = NULL; }
// Changed ch to int, to avoid compiler warnings.
void ClearTranslation (int ch) { Translation[ch] = NULL; }
-----------------------------------------

I am being VERY SPECIFIC here - just restricting the example to 3 little
lines, with some VERY SPECIFIC questions.

1) Did you write those 3 lines Pascal?
2) If so, when?
3) If you did not write them, please indicate where they came from.

See I know those lines well. Shane wrote the first, but it was not
commented out (// is a comment in C++). The second, a comment about the
change to remove compiler warnings is what I personally wrote (yes me).
The 3rd is my changed line.

Now Sourceforge have this very nice facility on their CVS repository
that allows one to see differences between different versions of a file.

This link

http://chessdb.cvs.sourceforge.net/chessdb/chessdb/src/textbuf.h?r1=1.1&r2=1.2

shows in yellow the differences between version 1.1 of src/textbuf.h in
ChessDB (Tue Dec 26 19:37:44 2006 UTC) in and version 1.2 in ChessDB,
less than an hour later at Tue Dec 26 20:11:49 2006 UTC.

Funny how the lines in your code are EXACTLY the same as what I put on
Sourceforge. Your first release of scid-pg (later you renamed to Scid),
was not until AFTER that date.

So there is the challenge. Explain why the 3 lines are there? If you
find that too easy (which I doubt you will if you do it PROPERLY), then
try the others in the link on my post in Feb of this year.

SO TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR TO ANYONE. THE SOFTWARE PASCAL CALLS SCID IS A
FORK FROM ChessDB. It does *NOT* start from tbe Scid sources, but uses
code I wrote and code others wrote.

Pascal

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Aug 18, 2007, 6:47:32 AM8/18/07
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Could you please stop inventing false clues on senseless pityful stuff ?
You took patches on internet, as I did, you applied them to Scid 3.6.1
sources as I did : hence the common stuff on very few lines : ok,
congratulations ! And so what ? Don't you think it is better to reward
original authors of patches instead of you ?

Yes I tried to collaborate a few days with you, but I understood quickly
how insane you are : do you own copyright on mispellings, C++ comments
? Can't anybody write "//" without (c) D Kirkbye alongside ? Can't I
comment one line of code in Scid without checking if you did the same ?

I continue Scid development, you first started renaming all Scid's
occurences in source files (more than 1600) without any added value, and
putting (c) D Kirkby on files you did not change at all : that's the
truth, and you even did not deny your misbehaviour ! All you can do is
take others' work and act as if you were a genius.

What's the meaning of your endless childish arguing, that interests
*nobody* ?


Dave a écrit :

Dave

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Aug 18, 2007, 7:08:50 AM8/18/07
to
Pascal wrote:
> Could you please stop inventing false clues on senseless pityful stuff ?

There is no false or pitiful stuff.

> You took patches on internet,

Not the 3 lines I posted just posted (or a lot more, but I'll keep it
simple and restrict discussion it to just 3 lines).

That was *not* from the internet. I would ask you to show me *anywhere*
that patch can be found, or anyone that claims to have wrote it.

I wrote it - not you, not anyone else.

Pascal

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Aug 18, 2007, 8:13:26 AM8/18/07
to
If this was true, I would like to apologize and thank you so much Dave
for your contribution to Scid and for these 3 lines, and for all you did
to make Scid alive while its author's unavailability (due to long illness).

I thought you only wanted to kill Scid and bury it and take advantage of
other's work to cover your lack of skills, and I was certainly wrong.

Chess computer's world really need people like you.

Dave a écrit :

Dave

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Aug 18, 2007, 12:09:00 PM8/18/07
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Pascal wrote:
> If this was true, I would like to apologize and thank you so much Dave
> for your contribution to Scid and for these 3 lines, and for all you did
> to make Scid alive while its author's unavailability (due to long illness).

But it is not just 3 lines - and you know full well that it is not just
3 lines. I posted a longer list before:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/browse_thread/thread/658a58d9a17b9aaf/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a?lnk=st&q=scid+chessdb+This+is+a+little+more+complex+than+it+appears.+READ+ON+....+&rnum=1&hl=en#dcb9e3c5e4e7266a

which you never bothered responding to properly. Perhaps I will have
more luck with small pieces at a time, so here is a bit more - this time
12 lines, not 3.

http://chessdb.cvs.sourceforge.net/chessdb/chessdb/src/position.cpp?r1=1.1&r2=1.2

Want more?

Guy Macon

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Aug 18, 2007, 12:57:01 PM8/18/07
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Dave wrote:

>documented at:
>
>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/browse_frm/thread/6
> 58a58d9a17b9aaf/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a?lnk=st&q=scid+released&rnum=1&hl=en#dcb9e3c
> 5e4e7266a

You might want to consider polishing up your Google Groups citing skills:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/msg/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/>

Pascal

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Aug 18, 2007, 2:51:57 PM8/18/07
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Dave a écrit :

Yes ! We all want more !
What you say and your consideration for the past work of others is so
interesting !

Guy Macon

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Aug 18, 2007, 3:55:11 PM8/18/07
to

I have some comments as a neutral third party who is quite
familiar with this sort of issue.

PG=Pascal Georges
DK=David Kirkby

Everything else=Guy Macon

PG: "Scid is a chess database application (original version available
PG: at http://scid.sourceforge.net). As Scid's author has been unreachable
PG: for a very long time, I decided to continue his work. So the version
PG: of Scid found here is not a fork of the original project but a
PG: continuation of it. "

It isn't a continuation unless the original author says that it is. It's
a fork. I could choose to continue the work too. By using the correct
term (fork) the issue of who is the "real" continuation doesn't come up.

DK: "I started ChessDB, http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/ as a continuation
DK: /fork (you use what ever term you want)

No. You *can't* use any term you want. In particular, you can't
use the term "continuation" unless the original author says that
you are the new maintainer of his work.

DK: I'm NOT concerned about what he has taken from Scid (that is allowed
DK: under the GPL), but what he claims to have done, but has not. In
DK: particular, what code he took of mine, without acknowledgment.

Taking your code without acknowledgment is allowed under the GPL.
In particular, [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ] section 7
says that "requiring ... author attributions" and "prohibiting
misrepresentation of the origin of that material" and "requiring
that modified versions of such material be marked in reasonable
ways as different from the original version" are all additional
terms, not part of the GPL.

PG: "So I will switch naming of my releases from scid-pg to scid
PG: as I have the right to."

No. You do not have the right to the name "Scid" or "scid" unless the
original author says that you are the new maintainer of his work. The
original author doesn't seem to be around to sue you, but he could.
If you think that something being Open Source under the GPL means that
the name isn't a trademark, try forking off a distribution and calling
it "Red Hat Linux" or "Slackware."

DK: which has code taken from ChessDB but not acknowledged.

See above.

PG: As chessDB is a fork of Scid

Yes. As is scid-pg.

PG: and until anybody else is better placed than me to continue Scid,

You don't get to decide that.

PG: I request things to be strictly separated : given Kirkby's
PG: attitude, I hope he'll be honest enough to continue his fork
PG: in a strict separated way than mine

Unless DK has called ChessDB "scid-pg", he has kept his fork
as separate from yours as required.

PG: I deny him the right to use my own code

You *CAN'T* deny *ANYONE* the right to use code derived from a work
licensed under the GPL. The *ONLY* way you can deny anyone the right
to use your code is to take out every bit of GPL code. Then you
can use whatever license you prefer.

PG: and put your (C) on files where you did not change one byte.

So? He changed the name and made it clear that it is a derivative
work. Look at all the forks from Red Hat, Debian, and Slackware;
they have many unchanged files but the files are part of the new,
derived work with the new name and thus are properly copyrighted
with the name of the author of the fork.

DK: SO TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR TO ANYONE. THE SOFTWARE PASCAL CALLS
DK: SCID IS A FORK FROM ChessDB. It does *NOT* start from the Scid
DK: sources, but uses code I wrote and code others wrote.

That's not how GPL software works. You act as if PG isn't allowed to
copy all the code from ChessDB and still still call it a fork of Scid.
Assuming that scid-pg has lots of Scid code in it and lots of ChessDB
code in it, he can call it a fork of either. It works the other way,
too. You could abandon all of your work, copy all of scid-pg, rename
it ChessDB and put your name in all of the copyrights and still call
it a fork of Scid. It is very common for a fork of a fork of a fork
to call itself a fork of the original (and usually best-known) program.
To require otherwise ignores one of the main advantages of GNU FOSS;
the practice of incorporating improvements from multiple sources with
no restrictions. It goes back to Stallman's "software should be free"
argument.

PG: "you first started renaming all Scid's occurences in source
PG: files (more than 1600) without any added value

Doing that is correct behavior. Look at CentOS; they renamed all
occurrences of the phrase Red Hat, yet CentOS is as near to a perfect
clone of Red Hat as possible. It is PG who is in the wrong when he
falsely call scid-pg "scid" without permission. That's a trademark
violation. GPL doesn't shield him, either; GPL is about copyrights,
not trademarks, service-marks or patents.

For a taste of some of the issues involved, See:
http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/archives/2007/01/why_im_tired_of.html
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/07/30/osi_tiemann_responds/
http://www.nicholasgoodman.com/bt/blog/2006/11/27/compromise-attribution-rider-on-any-osi-license/
http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3694076
http://asay.blogspot.com/2007/01/my-very-last-attribution-post.html

I hope this helps.

crwydryn

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Aug 18, 2007, 4:19:46 PM8/18/07
to
On Aug 18, 12:55 pm, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
> I have some comments as a neutral third party who is quite
> familiar with this sort of issue.
>
> PG=Pascal Georges
> DK=David Kirkby
>
> Everything else=Guy Macon
>
> PG: "Scid is a chess database application (original version available
> PG: athttp://scid.sourceforge.net). As Scid's author has been unreachable

> PG: for a very long time, I decided to continue his work. So the version
> PG: of Scid found here is not a fork of the original project but a
> PG: continuation of it. "
>
> It isn't a continuation unless the original author says that it is. It's
> a fork. I could choose to continue the work too. By using the correct
> term (fork) the issue of who is the "real" continuation doesn't come up.
>
> DK: "I started ChessDB,http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/as a continuation
> For a taste of some of the issues involved, See:http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/archives/2007/01/why_im_tire...http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/07/30/osi_tiemann_responds/ http://www.nicholasgoodman.com/bt/blog/2006/11/27/compromise-attribut...http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3694076http://asay.blogspot.com/2007/01/my-very-last-attribution-post.html

>
> I hope this helps.
>
> --
> Guy Macon
> <http://www.guymacon.com/>

It is refreshing to see someone standing up for the GPL. :)

In my case, I have tried the original scid, and both forks. I wish
that Shane had continued his work. I did not care for Pascal's fork.
The spelling correction routine in his code converted all instances of
Tigran V Petrosian to a different Tigran Petrosian, thus wiping out
the record of the former world champion, and ruining my data base.

Dave's fork seems nice so far. He seems to be innovative and
energetic.

I like to see developer's writing GPL software. It would be nice if
the antagonism between the two author's vanished. Perhaps one or both
could take the high road and answer the other by writing great
software instead of hurling insults...

Your mileage may vary...


Regards, J.D. Walker

Dave

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Aug 18, 2007, 4:20:30 PM8/18/07
to
Pascal wrote:

>> which you never bothered responding to properly. Perhaps I will have
>> more luck with small pieces at a time, so here is a bit more - this
>> time 12 lines, not 3.
>>
>> http://chessdb.cvs.sourceforge.net/chessdb/chessdb/src/position.cpp?r1=1.1&r2=1.2
>>
>>
>> Want more?
>>
>
> Yes ! We all want more !
> What you say and your consideration for the past work of others is so
> interesting !

What do you mean by 'others'? It is not others that wrote it, but me!!

I'll make it clearer, with the following statement::

The 12 changes between the Shane's source file src/position.cpp in the
real Scid (not your plagiarised version) and what appears in 'your'
first release of scid-pg and still exist in 'your' latest release of
scid (3.6.18) were *not* written by you. They were not written by any
others. They were written by me.

THAT IS FACT AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

Do you claim to have made those changes in the file src/position.cpp?

If you do not claim to have made the changes yourself, would you mind
saying where you got them from?

Pascal

unread,
Aug 18, 2007, 6:03:04 PM8/18/07
to
crwydryn a écrit :

> I like to see developer's writing GPL software. It would be nice if
> the antagonism between the two author's vanished. Perhaps one or both
> could take the high road and answer the other by writing great
> software instead of hurling insults...

I am really sorry for the wasting of your time reading those bad words
between DK and me, and thank you for your patience. But simply look at
what DK writes when announcing something new in chessDB : first, he
starts insulting me, because he can't stand someone trying to continue
Shane Hudson's work (which seems to approve my changes, even if in a non
public way : he seems to be far from internet now). That's why DK
prevented me from uploading my changes at SourceForge, with biased
arguments.
He could go his on way, but instead he tries by any manner to state that
Scid, and all derivatives (like mine) belongs in some manner to him. He
was a true beginner in Scid programming when he started chessDB and now
he wants me to prove I wrote what is available at my site, where
*nothing* is from him except a misspelling I corrected since that time :
can you imagine such behavior ? Can't he work on his own side ? No,
because he simply does not want anybody to continue Scid development. Why ?

Sorry again for the "hurling insults" but there are things that can't be
left in state, especially when you had the chance to be confronted with
DK, and to get a clue of his motivations.

More important, concerning the name "Scid" :
1. I received a *single* mail from Shane Hudson : he seemed to be
pleased by my changes (in february if I remember well, great relief for
me : I must confess I was a bit afraid), and stated he was happy I could
be "admin" of Scid at SF. But he did not know DK made "a formal
opposition" to SF staff, and it worked : then Scid has not evolved at SF
since 2004 (more than 3 years!). Nobody is now able to make simple admin
tasks at SF regarding Scid (mailing list for example). That is what DK
wanted : simply to have a vanishing Scid, so he does not like what I do.
2. I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat, or
something like that. But be sure that if Shane Hudson asks me to change
the name of Scid, I will of course do it immediately (that's why I only
use version numbers in the form 3.6.x, leaving to him 3.7+, to limit
confusion, if he continues Scid one day).

Pascal

Dave

unread,
Aug 18, 2007, 6:17:34 PM8/18/07
to
Pascal wrote:
> He
> was a true beginner in Scid programming when he started chessDB

I was new to Tcl/Tk I would admin. Not sure if I know what is mean by
'Scid programming'.


> and now
> he wants me to prove I wrote what is available at my site, where
> *nothing* is from him except a misspelling I corrected since that time :

Well that is just a pack of lies.


It was not a simple mis-spelling. I did quote as one of many examples
the mis-spelling, when I wrote:

"Shane is NOT reponsible for bugs in ChessDB"

to find the same word (responsible) mis-spelt, and the same word (NOT)
capitalised:

"Shane is NOT reponsible for bugs in Scid"

but the copied code goes well beyond a mis-spelling.

I might not be the brightest spark on the planet, but I am not thick
either. I would not accuse you of plagiarism if you just misspelt one
word. Give me some credit for intelligence!

Pascal

unread,
Aug 18, 2007, 6:23:28 PM8/18/07
to
Dave a écrit :

> > Yes ! We all want more !
> > What you say and your consideration for the past work of others is so interesting !
> What do you mean by 'others'? It is not others that wrote it, but me!!

others = Shane Hudson, people contributing to Scid, etc.

> If you do not claim to have made the changes yourself, would you mind
> saying where you got them from?

Okay, Dave you got me. I am strictly unable to prove what I wrote : so I
make public apologizes to you :

- Scid 3.6.18 was written by you (except some code by Shane Hudson). I
never took Scid 3.6.1 sources and continued its development : all or
part of 3.6.18 (choose what pleases you the most) was made by you.
Thank you very much for continuing Scid, Dave. Thank you for having
tried to continue the great work on behalf of someone who is
unfortunately unable to do so ;

- the upcoming version of Pocket Scid is currently written by you : I
wait for its release with a great impatience.
Thank you very much for that, Dave.

Please, do you allow me to continue to host your work at my site ?

Pascal

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 18, 2007, 6:43:42 PM8/18/07
to


----------------------------------------------------------

Pascal wrote:

>I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,

You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
Trademarks are established simply by being used.



>or something like that. But be sure that if Shane Hudson asks
>me to change the name of Scid, I will of course do it immediately

Legally, you are not allowed to use a trademark simply because the
owner never asked you not to. You need his express permission.
He could sue you if he was so inclined, and would win.

Besides, Scid stands for "Shane's Chess Information Database."
You should call yours Pcid. scid-pg is also a good name.

Also see my post under "Bill Gates vs. Richard Stallman."
Then tell me which you wish to be like.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dave wrote:

>but the copied code goes well beyond a mis-spelling.
>
>I might not be the brightest spark on the planet, but I am not thick
>either. I would not accuse you of plagiarism if you just misspelt one
>word. Give me some credit for intelligence!

Copied GPL code does not equal plagiarism. See my previous post.

Also see my post under "Bill Gates vs. Richard Stallman."
Then tell me which you wish to be like.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dave

unread,
Aug 18, 2007, 8:07:01 PM8/18/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:

> Dave wrote:
>
>> but the copied code goes well beyond a mis-spelling.
>>
>> I might not be the brightest spark on the planet, but I am not thick
>> either. I would not accuse you of plagiarism if you just misspelt one
>> word. Give me some credit for intelligence!
>
> Copied GPL code does not equal plagiarism. See my previous post.
>

Copying GPL'ed code is fine I've no problems with that.

It is against common decency to not acknowledge it, but I can accept
that is not a requirement of the GPL.

BUT when Pascal specifically says he wrote code, when it was written by
me, then that must come under the definition of plagiarism, which is
passing off someone elses ideas or work as your own.

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 1:46:08 AM8/19/07
to


David Kirkby wrote:

>Copying GPL'ed code is fine I've no problems with that.
>
>It is against common decency to not acknowledge it, but I
>can accept that is not a requirement of the GPL.

In other words, you accept the fact that (direct quote from
the GPL) "requiring...author attributions" is specifically
listed as an additional optional term that not required by
the GPL. See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ]
section 7. Good!

>BUT when Pascal specifically says he wrote code, when it
>was written by me, then that must come under the definition
>of plagiarism, which is passing off someone elses ideas or
>work as your own.

In other words, you *refuse* to accept the fact that (again
a direct quote from the GPL) "prohibiting misrepresentation
of the origin of that material" is specifically listed as
an additional optional term that not required by the GPL.
See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ] section 7.

You aren't alone in that view. Many other software developers
don't use the GPL for that exact reason -- they don't agree
with what it says about attribution and misrepresentation of
origins. Just do a Google search on [ attribution GPL ]
[ http://www.google.com/search?q=attribution+GPL ] and see.
But that's what Stallman put into the GPL, and he did it on
purpose because he really does believe that there is no need
to prohibit misrepresentation of the origin of GPL'ed material.

Here is my problem with your position. You published ChessDB
under the GPL, and you make it clear that it is derived from
Scid, which was also published under the GPL. But you keep
trying to prohibit Pascal Georges from misrepresenting the
origin of parts of scid-pg -- which is derived from Scid and,
it appears, at least partially derived from ChessDB. So which
is it? Do you agree with the GPL on not? If you agree with
the GPL, why are you trying to impose additional restrictions
and making accusations of plagiarism when these added-on
restrictions are not followed? If you don't agree with the GPL,
why are you using GPL code from Scid in ChessDB?

Please note that I aso have major problems with Pascal Georges'
similar attempt to add additional restrictions to GPL code.

Message has been deleted

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 3:59:19 AM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon a écrit :

> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pascal wrote:
>
>> I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,
>
> You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
> Trademarks are established simply by being used.
>
>> or something like that. But be sure that if Shane Hudson asks
>> me to change the name of Scid, I will of course do it immediately
>
> Legally, you are not allowed to use a trademark simply because the
> owner never asked you not to. You need his express permission.
> He could sue you if he was so inclined, and would win.

Guy, you may be right about Scid as trademark and I may be wrong. But
putting the debate on a law-ish side is a bit over exaggerated and
useless for me. I kept clear intentions on my work, in a transparent
manner, only trying to add work to Scid that can facilitate the come
back of Scid's author. If he comes back, now he can immediatly take part
of my work, and release a "genuine" Scid 3.7 in one week (that is why I
only use version numbering like 3.6.x). Nice isn't it ?

I prefer to stay on a more friendly and smooth discussion between adults
(impossible with DK), and if one day there is the risk of any conflict
with Scid's author's will, I'll do all what is necessary to avoid it.

So far the only conflict is with someone who substituted all Scid's
tokens in source code to put his own name : nothing to do with Scid's
development.
If I had wrote a great software, and was ill for years and if someone
took my work, change it in a way it is very hard for me to reintegrate
it in my original project : do you think I would be happy, even if he
had the right to do it ?

Pascal

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 4:18:40 AM8/19/07
to
Dave a écrit :

> It is against common decency to not acknowledge it, but I can accept
> that is not a requirement of the GPL.
>
> BUT when Pascal specifically says he wrote code, when it was written by
> me, then that must come under the definition of plagiarism, which is
> passing off someone elses ideas or work as your own.
>

Ok, I know this is false, and you know this is false. I know what I did,
I know that you can make mistakes in code and mess things and never
acknowledge it or apologize when someone proves to you that you are the
one to blame (you accused the code *I* sent to you of corrupting
databases, then you stated "I can't reproduce it" and you never
apologized because simply you did not know how to use Scid : remember ?
And I took code from *you* ??).

Then, to keep your mouth closed, I stated you are the author of Scid
3.6.18 : sorry I can't do more to please you and your ego.

When someone keeps shouting "the sky is green", you end up by saying
"yes, the sky is green". But this only means that he is daltonian, and I
really don't care he is a daltonian.

Pascal

Dave

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 5:21:02 AM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:
> David Kirkby wrote:
>
>> Copying GPL'ed code is fine I've no problems with that.
>

>
>> It is against common decency to not acknowledge it, but I
>> can accept that is not a requirement of the GPL.
>
> In other words, you accept the fact that (direct quote from
> the GPL) "requiring...author attributions" is specifically
> listed as an additional optional term that not required by
> the GPL. See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ]
> section 7. Good!

Yes, I do.

>> BUT when Pascal specifically says he wrote code, when it
>> was written by me, then that must come under the definition
>> of plagiarism, which is passing off someone elses ideas or
>> work as your own.
>
> In other words, you *refuse* to accept the fact that (again
> a direct quote from the GPL) "prohibiting misrepresentation
> of the origin of that material" is specifically listed as
> an additional optional term that not required by the GPL.
> See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ] section 7.
>

I will accept that Pascal's refusal to acknowledge that some of 'his'
code is derived from code I wrote, does in itself not mean he is
breaching the GPL.

I still maintain that goes against what I would call 'common decency',
which I accept is not a requirement of the GPL.

> You aren't alone in that view. Many other software developers
> don't use the GPL for that exact reason -- they don't agree
> with what it says about attribution and misrepresentation of
> origins. Just do a Google search on [ attribution GPL ]
> [ http://www.google.com/search?q=attribution+GPL ] and see.
> But that's what Stallman put into the GPL, and he did it on
> purpose because he really does believe that there is no need
> to prohibit misrepresentation of the origin of GPL'ed material.
>

That I feel then means the GPL allows (perhaps even encourages)
plagiarism. I have lost some respect for the GPL there, but I accept I
licensed my code under the GPL.

> Here is my problem with your position. You published ChessDB
> under the GPL, and you make it clear that it is derived from
> Scid, which was also published under the GPL.

Yes, I am glad you say I make it clear - Pascal often accuses me of the
opposite.

> But you keep
> trying to prohibit Pascal Georges from misrepresenting the
> origin of parts of scid-pg -- which is derived from Scid and,
> it appears, at least partially derived from ChessDB. So which
> is it? Do you agree with the GPL on not?

I don't agree with this term, but I do accept it.

> If you agree with
> the GPL, why are you trying to impose additional restrictions

I'll stop trying to place any additional restriction.

> and making accusations of plagiarism

Yes, I do still accuse him of plagiarism and will continue to do so.

When someone claims code is theirs when it is not, then that is
plagiarism. It would appear that does not in itself breach the GPL, but
it is most definitely plagiarism. It is also against what I would call
'common decency'.

> when these added-on
> restrictions are not followed?


> If you don't agree with the GPL,
> why are you using GPL code from Scid in ChessDB?

I think under the circumstances I will have to say that I don't agree
100% with the GPL, but I will accept 100% of its conditions.

Perhaps a summary of my views may be:

*************************
"Pascal Georges took C++ and Tcl source code I personally wrote for
ChessDB, which is a chess database based on Scid written primarily by
Shane Hudson. Pascal originally used my code in a fork he called
scid-pg, which Pascal released on January 2007. Pascal rightfully
acknowledged his use of source code from Scid, but denies he used code I
wrote, despite *overwhelming* evidence to the contrary.

Pascal has since renamed his fork as Scid, which I believe is
inappropriate.

I am happy for Pascal to use the source code I wrote, but I would have
appreciated acknowledgement in the same way he acknowledged Shane Hudson.

I believe Pascal's failure to acknowledge me, then call me a liar when I
challenge him on this, is against 'common decency'. I believe Pascal's
actions constitute plagiarism, which is defined by the Oxford English
Dictionary as "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and
passing them off as one's own".

However, whilst I object in principle to Pascal's plagiarism, I am aware
that it is not against the conditions of the GPL under which ChessDB
is licensed."

************************

> Please note that I aso have major problems with Pascal Georges'
> similar attempt to add additional restrictions to GPL code.

I gathered that. You obviously feel we have both made some errors and so
both share some of the blame. I accept that too. I would be interested
who you believe deserves the most criticism.

Message has been deleted

Dave

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 5:46:26 AM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:

> Pascal wrote:
>
>> where *nothing* is from him except a misspelling I
>> corrected since that time
>
> Keeping in mind that, under the GPL, you are perfectly free
> to use any of his code and even to claim that you wrote it,
> I am likewise free to believe or disbelieve your claims.
> It seems rather odd that you would, as you seem to claim
> above, not use any of DKs code yet for some odd reason
> copying his typos (It seems that there is more than just
> one place where his typos appear in your code) and nothing
> else. That's rather far-fetched.
>

Nicely said.

>> DK prevented me from uploading my changes at SourceForge,
>> with biased arguments.
>

>> DK made "a formal opposition" to SF staff, and it worked
>

>> 1. I received a *single* mail from Shane Hudson : he ...


>> stated he was happy I could be "admin" of Scid at SF.
>

> Would either of the two of you be so kind as to give me a
> URL where I can read all arguments submitted to sourceforge
> and the sourceforge final decision?

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1658454&group_id=1&atid=200001

Message has been deleted

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 6:42:27 AM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon a écrit :

>> If he comes back, now he can immediatly take part
>> of my work, and release a "genuine" Scid 3.7 in one week (that is why I
>> only use version numbering like 3.6.x). Nice isn't it ?
>

> No. Not nice at all.

Don't you think that the only person that can judge if nice or not is
only Scid's author ? Here are some quotes from the *only* mail I got
from S. Hudson :
"[...]I am happy for others to help wherever possible.[...]"
"[...]I'm happy for you to be added as an admin at sourceforge, if that
makes it easier to get a new release sorted out.[...]"
"[...]it seems like you have added some great new features.[...]"

Yes, you are right : he does not clearly allow me to keep on with Scid,
he simply encouraged me to do so. This is what I understood. If I got
the tiniest feeling of the opposite, I would have immediately stopped.

When you state :

> Stealing is stealing. You stole the name "Scid" without permission.
> That's not only illegal, it's morally wrong. You are a thief. You
> stole a trademark. Stop it at once.

The rudeness of your words are really inappropriate here, and now this
spreads some doubt of the value of your arguments for me (my personal
feeling).

Pascal

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 6:54:22 AM8/19/07
to
Dave a écrit :

>> Keeping in mind that, under the GPL, you are perfectly free
>> to use any of his code and even to claim that you wrote it,
>> I am likewise free to believe or disbelieve your claims.
>> It seems rather odd that you would, as you seem to claim above, not
>> use any of DKs code yet for some odd reason
>> copying his typos (It seems that there is more than just
>> one place where his typos appear in your code) and nothing
>> else. That's rather far-fetched.
>>
>
> Nicely said.

Dave, please could you think about one thing (sorry to waste your time)
: I sent code to you several times in december, is it possible that you
took this code and forgot (unvoluntarily) that it came from me ?

Did you simply think about this obvious thing ?

It happened you got problems with Scid's code and use (this can happen
to everybody), but maybe you could have some doubt ?

But to please you (I cannot be nicer), I repeat : *all valuable code in
Scid 3.6.18 is copyrighted David Kirkby, who wrote most of valuable
enhancements since Scid 3.6.1*

Again, Dave, I would like to thank you very much for that.

Pascal

crwydryn

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 6:58:15 AM8/19/07
to

I think Guy has made a pretty convincing presentation of the GPL
requirements in this context. Perhaps it lacked a diplomatic
touch. :) I have one doubt about all of this. Pascal, is English a
second language for you? I ask because this whole affair might have
some roots in confusion based on language issues. Certainly
discussing the nuances of the GPL in English with someone who could
handle it much better in say French would not be optimal for
understanding. :) In any case, I thank both authors for their
efforts at writing GPL code, and hope that this conflict will fade
away soon.

J.D. Walker


Dave

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 8:09:19 AM8/19/07
to
Pascal wrote:
> Dave a écrit :
>
>>> Keeping in mind that, under the GPL, you are perfectly free
>>> to use any of his code and even to claim that you wrote it,
>>> I am likewise free to believe or disbelieve your claims.
>>> It seems rather odd that you would, as you seem to claim above, not
>>> use any of DKs code yet for some odd reason
>>> copying his typos (It seems that there is more than just
>>> one place where his typos appear in your code) and nothing
>>> else. That's rather far-fetched.
>>>
>>
>> Nicely said.
>
> Dave, please could you think about one thing (sorry to waste your time)
> : I sent code to you several times in december, is it possible that you
> took this code and forgot (unvoluntarily) that it came from me ?

No, it is not possible. But a nice try!

You are finding it more and more difficult to justify how our codes are
so similar, others are getting as close to calling you a liar without
actually using that word, so you now suggest perhaps you sent it to me,
and so I'm the one doing the copying!!!

But I can refute that suggestion very easily, by reference to the online
tutorial, where scid-pg rather stupidly printed that the very latest
information was on a web site which had not been updated for several years.

Can I ask you if you wrote the following line of code in the file
tcl/end.tcl in scid-pg?

:::splash::add "Also look at the online tutorial
http://scid.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ will always have the very latest "

See, with no way to update the Scid web site, why would you have
possibly written that? The real Scid tutorial on which the link points
to was last updated in December 2003.

So it never had the very latest information when you released scid-pg -
it was several years out of date! There was no possible reason for you
to write that little line.

Instead, your code had inaccurate information about a link, which came
from simply substituting 'chessdb' to 'scid' in code you copied from
me!!! It was also poor grammatically, since you copied that too!

So, you see Pascal, that line of defence breaks down.

As a chess player, I quite like the French Defence 1.e4 e6 (you may see
I often use it in examples).

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/tutorial/t_search_tree.php

I must say, it is far more effective than your defence of your actions!
But your actions are totally indefensible, so you should stop trying to
defend them.

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 8:53:03 AM8/19/07
to
Dave a écrit :

> Pascal wrote:
>> Dave a écrit :
>>
>>>> Keeping in mind that, under the GPL, you are perfectly free
>>>> to use any of his code and even to claim that you wrote it,
>>>> I am likewise free to believe or disbelieve your claims.
>>>> It seems rather odd that you would, as you seem to claim above, not
>>>> use any of DKs code yet for some odd reason
>>>> copying his typos (It seems that there is more than just
>>>> one place where his typos appear in your code) and nothing
>>>> else. That's rather far-fetched.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nicely said.
>>
>> Dave, please could you think about one thing (sorry to waste your
>> time) : I sent code to you several times in december, is it possible
>> that you took this code and forgot (unvoluntarily) that it came from me ?
>
> No, it is not possible. But a nice try!
>
> You are finding it more and more difficult to justify how our codes are
> so similar, others are getting as close to calling you a liar without
> actually using that word, so you now suggest perhaps you sent it to me,
> and so I'm the one doing the copying!!!

That is not bad to copy my code !!! There is no big offense, you can do
it, and continue to do it. When I said one day with anger "I deny you
the right to take my code", my purpose was only to get rid of you,
that's all. You were the only target of this sentence.
Why would I care to deny such tiny and picky things (copying your
misspellings, etc.) ? That is why I complied to your wills (again to get
rid of you) and said :

*all valuable code in Scid 3.6.18 is copyrighted David Kirkby, who wrote

most, if not all, valuable enhancements since Scid 3.6.1*

Cannot do more !

I even awarded you for the upcoming port of Scid to PPC : we never know
! One misspelling or
int i = 0;
would be sufficient for you to state it is your work.
So it is yours ! Just take all the code of Scid for Pocket, rename all
files, rename all occurences of Scid in it, put your (c) David Kirkby
everywhere and release it ! You are used to do such things, you have the
right to do it, so go ahaead ! (argh I misspelled ahead !! I have to put
(c) David Kirkby)

The only thing I ask, please, is to get rid of you : don't mention my
name in any file you touch. Please.

> Instead, your code had inaccurate information about a link, which came
> from simply substituting 'chessdb' to 'scid' in code you copied from
> me!!! It was also poor grammatically, since you copied that too!

english is not my mother tongue, contrary of you, so sorry for my poor
grammar and vocabulary.
If you own (C) on broken links (I am not aware of any, but who knows),
you own most of the web !

I hope I flattered you enough today ?

Pascal

Dave

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 9:20:50 AM8/19/07
to
Pascal wrote:

> english is not my mother tongue, contrary of you, so sorry for my poor
> grammar and vocabulary.

I understand English is not your mother tongue, but it is very good. It
is certainly better than my French, which I last studied 30+ years ago.

Hence I believe you can understand when I ask if you wrote the following
line:

:::splash::add "Also look at the online tutorial
http://scid.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ will always have the very latest "

in scid-pg. If so, would you be as kind as to explain why.

Pascal

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 10:18:06 AM8/19/07
to
Dave a écrit :

> Pascal wrote:
>
>> english is not my mother tongue, contrary of you, so sorry for my poor
>> grammar and vocabulary.
>
> I understand English is not your mother tongue, but it is very good. It
> is certainly better than my French, which I last studied 30+ years ago.
>
> Hence I believe you can understand when I ask if you wrote the following
> line:
>
> :::splash::add "Also look at the online tutorial
> http://scid.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ will always have the very latest "


No I must confess I did not wrote this stuff and any other thing (at
your will) in current Scid's code : it appears you don't understand my
poor english, so I will try to repeat in other words : you deserve *all*
fame for Scid ! You made all what has some value (and even what has
none, if you want) in current Scid's evolution, and I am not able (and
certainly no will) to prove anything, so *everything* is yours ! All
what you want !

Pascal

Kenneth Sloan

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 3:46:56 PM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:
> David Kirkby wrote:
>
>> Copying GPL'ed code is fine I've no problems with that.
>>
>> It is against common decency to not acknowledge it, but I
>> can accept that is not a requirement of the GPL.
>
> In other words, you accept the fact that (direct quote from
> the GPL) "requiring...author attributions" is specifically
> listed as an additional optional term that not required by
> the GPL. See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ]
> section 7. Good!

Note that he ALSO said that not acknowledging your sources is the sort
of thing that only angle-shooting scum will do.

Ethics is the art of knowing the difference between what you *can* do
and what you *should* do.

>
>> BUT when Pascal specifically says he wrote code, when it
>> was written by me, then that must come under the definition
>> of plagiarism, which is passing off someone elses ideas or
>> work as your own.
>
> In other words, you *refuse* to accept the fact that (again
> a direct quote from the GPL) "prohibiting misrepresentation
> of the origin of that material" is specifically listed as
> an additional optional term that not required by the GPL.
> See [ http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html ] section 7.

Perhaps he feels that there are higher authorities than the GPL.

RMS was (and is) a clever hacker - but there are other guideposts to
civilized behavior.

--
Kenneth Sloan Kennet...@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Message has been deleted

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 5:52:56 PM8/19/07
to

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit


Kenneth Sloan wrote:

>Perhaps he feels that there are higher authorities than the GPL.
>
>RMS was (and is) a clever hacker - but there are other guideposts to
>civilized behavior.

Point well taken. And one of the reasons why so many folks
disagree with the GPL position on attribution.

I think that part of the problem is the fact that so many people
who totally disagree with the no-owner free-software underpinnings
of the GPL release software under GPL, and then flame those who do
agree with Stallman's philosophy and behave accordingly. If you
really do believe that you own something, someone who acts as if
you don't tends to anger you, even if you did agree to a license
that says that you don't own it. Even if the work is released to
the public domain, it's still annoying seeing someone come along
and claim that they wrote it when they clearly didn't.

Which reminds me; have you read my new work _ Philosophiæ Naturalis
Principia Mathematica: Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy_?
It consists of three books: _De Motu Corporum: On the motion of bodies_
Volumes I and II, and _De Mundi Systemate: On the system of the world_.
In it I explain how I invented calculus. Some little-known religious
fanatic going by the name Isaac Newton stole all of my best ideas... :)

(Note to the humor impaired: think first, flame later; not everything
posted to Usenet is serious.)

Dave

unread,
Aug 19, 2007, 8:56:59 PM8/19/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:

> If you
> really do believe that you own something, someone who acts as if
> you don't tends to anger you, even if you did agree to a license
> that says that you don't own it. Even if the work is released to
> the public domain, it's still annoying seeing someone come along
> and claim that they wrote it when they clearly didn't.

Which is how I feel. Couple that with a web page written about me,
calling me a liar etc:

http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/FAQ.html#fork_insane

and it does rather irritate me.

I've no idea how many people believe my version of events, and how many
believe Pascals - it would be nice to know.

BTW, it is possible under some circumstances to take over inactive
projects on Sourceforge.

http://sourceforge.net/docs/D01/en/#takeover

I don't know where that fits in with your earlier statement that it is
illegal for Pascal to use the name Scid. The problem with the term
'illegal' is that it depends on which country you are in.

Message has been deleted

David Richerby

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 7:57:00 AM8/20/07
to
Richard <blueg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Personally, playing in the U1600 sections of tournaments, I'd like
> to see statistics on what the most common responses by players rated
> 1400-1600 are to certain moves in the openings I play. That will
> tell me what I really need to prepare for, regardless of how strong
> it is.

My guess is that U1600 players play much more randomly than grand-
masters. For example, you can be almost certain that a GM would play
2.d4 after 1.e4 e6. A much weaker player, on the other hand, would be
much more likely to try something like 2.Nc3, 2.Nf3 or 2.e5.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Hilarious Toy (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ fun child's toy but it's a bundle
of laughs!

David Richerby

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 8:03:28 AM8/20/07
to
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
> If you think that something being Open Source under the GPL means
> that the name isn't a trademark, try forking off a distribution and
> calling it "Red Hat Linux" or "Slackware."

That's a whole different kettle of fish. You can't call your forked
distribution Red Hat Linux or Slackware precisely because those two
names *are* trademarked. But, to the best of my knowledge, the name
Scid is not a trademark.


> It is PG who is in the wrong when he falsely call scid-pg "scid"
> without permission. That's a trademark violation.

No it isn't because Scid isn't a trademark.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Hungry Cat (TM): it's like a cat but
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it'll eat you!

David Richerby

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 8:12:18 AM8/20/07
to
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
> Pascal wrote:
>> I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,
>
> You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
> Trademarks are established simply by being used.

No, trademarks have to be claimed.


>> or something like that. But be sure that if Shane Hudson asks
>> me to change the name of Scid, I will of course do it immediately
>
> Legally, you are not allowed to use a trademark simply because the
> owner never asked you not to. You need his express permission.
> He could sue you if he was so inclined, and would win.

On the other hand, the trademark owner has to defend his trademark
once he became aware of violations. If a trademark is not defended,
the courts will take the attitude that it is not valuable to the
trademark owner. Since the trademark is not valuable to its owner,
there can be no harm in somebody else using the name.

In particular, if I owned a trademark and you mailed me mentioning
that you were going to use my trademarked name, I would have to
respond by either allowing you to do so or forbidding you. Not
reacting to such a mail would be seen as failure to defend the
trademark if I later decided to sue you over it. So my guess is that,
in fact, Shane would lose if he tried to sue over trademark violation
here, assuming he had a trademark in the first place (which I believe
he does not.)


Dave.

--
David Richerby Mentholated Newspaper (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a daily broadsheet but it's
invigorating!

james

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 9:11:32 AM8/20/07
to
David Richerby a écrit :

> Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>> Pascal wrote:
>>> I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,
>> You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
>> Trademarks are established simply by being used.
>
> No, trademarks have to be claimed.
>
It depends on the country.

I know for sure that they have to be registered in Germany, France, and
Benelux (there are very few exceptions, and only for very famous
trademark that do not need registering to be protected).
I also know for sure that in the US, they have to be used (in fact they
have to be used before registering, if you ever need a formal registration).

For international registration, the Madrid agreement states that people
can register their trademark at the WIPO (World Intellectual Property
Organisation) if they have already registered in one country which has
signed the Madrid agreement. However, people have to pay for each
country they want a valid registration, turning an international
registration into a very costly process.

In many countries, trademarks are not protected any more if they haven't
been used for a "period of time" (5 years usually), and, as David wrote
in his previous message, they have to be defended, or protection of the
trademark is also lost.

David Richerby

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 9:42:05 AM8/20/07
to
james <ja...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> David Richerby a écrit :
>> Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>>> Pascal wrote:
>>>> I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,
>>> You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
>>> Trademarks are established simply by being used.
>>
>> No, trademarks have to be claimed.
>
> I know for sure that they have to be registered in Germany, France,
> and Benelux [...]

I didn't say `registered'; I said `claimed'. Nothing is trademarked
unless you explicitly say that it is. Registration is a further
level, offering further protection.

This is distinct from copyright which, under many countries' laws is
implicit. Under English law, I own the copyright on my words in this
post just because I created it. I don't have to stick a `Copyright
(c) David Richerby, 2007' at the bottom for this to be the case.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Homicidal Mouldy Composer (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a pupil of Beethoven but it's
starting to grow mushrooms and it
wants to kill you!

Dave

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 10:17:11 AM8/20/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:

>> Which is how I feel. Couple that with a web page written about me,
>> calling me a liar etc:
>>
>> http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/FAQ.html#fork_insane
>>
>> and it does rather irritate me.
>

> That's just plain *nasty*! I think anyone reading it will see
> at once that it makes him look bad and you look good.
>
> I also noticed that he put your email address on the page in the
> clear for spambots to harvest while protecting his own by writing
> pgeorges (at) users.sourceforge.net or pascal.georges1 (at) free.fr
> instead of mailto:pgeo...@users.sourceforge.net
> or mailto:pascal....@free.fr


As you can see, Pascal Georges ( pgeo...@users.sourceforge.net or
pascal....@free.fr ) is not the nicest person to deal with and is
certainly the nastiest open-source developer I have ever come across.

I had not actually noted his trick with the email address, in leaving
mine in a form ready for spam bots, but disguising his own. But I guess
given his acts of plagiarism in claiming he wrote code for 'Scid' that
he did not write, I should not be too surprised.

I suspect he might wish he had not committed the acts of plagiarism, but
it is too late for that.

Dr. David Kirkby

David Richerby

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 9:44:37 AM8/20/07
to
David Richerby <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> james <ja...@nowhere.org> wrote:
>> David Richerby a écrit :
>>> No, trademarks have to be claimed.
>>
>> I know for sure that they have to be registered in Germany, France,
>> and Benelux [...]
>
> I didn't say `registered'; I said `claimed'. [...]

But, by the way, since people have complained about this in the past,
I agree with the things that you wrote that I snipped.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Chocolate Painting (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ Renaissance masterpiece that's made
of chocolate!

Richard

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 11:55:02 AM8/20/07
to
On Aug 20, 7:57 am, David Richerby <dav...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:

> Richard <blueghos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Personally, playing in the U1600 sections of tournaments, I'd like
> > to see statistics on what the most common responses by players rated
> > 1400-1600 are to certain moves in the openings I play. That will
> > tell me what I really need to prepare for, regardless of how strong
> > it is.
>
> My guess is that U1600 players play much more randomly than grand-
> masters. For example, you can be almost certain that a GM would play
> 2.d4 after 1.e4 e6. A much weaker player, on the other hand, would be
> much more likely to try something like 2.Nc3, 2.Nf3 or 2.e5.
>
> Dave.
>
While lower rated players are less likely to stick to "book" moves, we
do still play at least somewhat logically. Maybe not so much for
players rated under 1000, but I usually play 1200-1600 players while I
try to get my 1380 rating up to 1600 and beyond. So certain inferior
"non-book" responses are going to be much more common than others.

That's part of the reason why it's hard for intermediate players to
study openings - you memorize a book line and your opponent doesn't
play into it. But most opening books don't bother covering the common
mistakes that no master would make. There's a definite market for that
type of book if some master decided to write it. I know Dan Heisman
has written a little bit of that in his Novice Nook column at
chesscafe.com, but he only covered a few of the most common openings.

For instance, I started playing a new gambit recently, and the first
two times I tried it, both of my opponents declined the gambit with
the same "non-book" response. Luckily, these were slow games, so I had
plenty of time to work out how to get an advantage from this logical
seeming, but ultimately weak move. I ended up with a good position in
the first game that carried through all the way to a dominating middle
game and material advantage in the endgame. The second game was
tougher, because my opponent fought back well in the middle game, but
I managed to win that, too.

My point, though, is that I wasn't prepared for what's obviously a
common response to the opening that I chose, because the sources that
originally showed me the opening (in this case, a friend at a
tournament, followed by reading an article on the internet about it)
didn't think that move was worth bothering to mention.

--Fromper

Daniel C. Bastos

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 12:15:12 PM8/20/07
to
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> writes:

[...]

> Besides, Scid stands for "Shane's Chess Information Database."
> You should call yours Pcid. scid-pg is also a good name.

Donald Knuth asked that any derivative work from TeX would not carry the
TeX name. I find that this should be the norm, culturally. Keeping a
similar name on a derivative work seems to give people the feeling that
the original author still works on that software, which may now be badly
written by someone else. Though this implies cluelessness on people, it
may still give the original author a bad image which is unfair.

So I think that unless the original author has anything to do with a new
derivative work and he endorses it, the name should be very different. I
wouldn't even call it Dcid, if it were mine.

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 1:00:47 PM8/20/07
to


David Richerby wrote:

>On the other hand, the trademark owner has to defend his trademark
>once he became aware of violations. If a trademark is not defended,
>the courts will take the attitude that it is not valuable to the
>trademark owner. Since the trademark is not valuable to its owner,
>there can be no harm in somebody else using the name.

That's true, and in this case there appears to be nobody defending
the name. Excellent point.

>Nothing is trademarked unless you explicitly say that it is.

I just looked ofer the USPTO site looking for that requirement
and could not find it. It says that you can establish rights
in a mark by using the mark or intending to use the mark in
commerce, and it says that you may (not must) use the TM or SM
designation to announce the claim. but
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/appcontent.htm#basis
does not mention anything about explicitly saying that it is a
trademark. It simply says "the mark must appear on the goods,
the container for the goods, or displays associated with the
goods, and the goods must be sold or transported in commerce."
It is my (possibly incorrect) understanding that someone can,
by usage, have a trademark by commercial use before he knows
what a trademark is.

Then again, I couldn't find anything saying they *don't* have
to be claimed, and you obviously have to claim that it is a
trademark before you can sue for infringement, but I am fairly
sure that the lawsuit will be decided on who used the mark in
commerce first, not who explicitly claimed that it is a trademark
first. I could be wrong, of course. If you have any wording
from the USPTO or from an applical law, I would be most interested
in reading it.

The question of who owns the Trademark "Linux" is instructive.

Linus Torvalds created Linux in 1991. At that time and for
years afterward he made no trademark claims.

In 1994 one William R. Della Croce Jr. of Boston made what appears
to be the first claim that "Linux" is a trademark, and in 1996
started demanding 10 percent royalties on sales from Linux vendors.

In the resulting lawsuit, R. Della Croce's claim was nullified
and the Linux trademark was legally assigned to Linus Torvalds.
See [ http://www.linuxmark.org/ ].

Especially instructive is the Petition to Cancel filed by
Linus Torvalds and others: [ http://lwn.net/Articles/148228/ ].
Nowhere in that document is there any claim that anyone other
than Croce was the first to claim the trademark, only that it
was in use in commerce long before he did so.

It is my belief that "Linux" became a trademark when the first
dollar changed hands while buying a copy -- even though nobody
at the time explicitly said that it was a trademark.

Kenneth Sloan

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 5:42:00 PM8/20/07
to
David Richerby wrote:
> Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>> Pascal wrote:
>>> I am not sure Scid can be associated to a trademark like RedHat,
>> You can be sure now. I assure you that it's a valid trademark.
>> Trademarks are established simply by being used.
>
> No, trademarks have to be claimed.

That must be one of the myriad facts about trademark that he's forgotten.

Kenneth Sloan

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 5:52:22 PM8/20/07
to
james wrote:
>
> For international registration, the Madrid agreement states that people
> can register their trademark at the WIPO (World Intellectual Property
> Organisation) if they have already registered in one country which has
> signed the Madrid agreement. However, people have to pay for each
> country they want a valid registration, turning an international
> registration into a very costly process.


>
> In many countries, trademarks are not protected any more if they haven't
> been used for a "period of time" (5 years usually), and, as David wrote
> in his previous message, they have to be defended, or protection of the
> trademark is also lost.
>

As well it should. Trademarks are usually restricted to a particular
market segment AND a geographic region. If your use is in another
country, or for a product/service that cannot reasonably be confused
with the original, then there is no trademark infringement.

The acid test for trademark is: will the consumer be confused?

There is an interesting example in my area - a local theater company was
using a name that was already in use by a theater in another state. As
long as the theater company remained small and local, there was no
problem - but as soon as the theater company "went regional" and started
advertising in the other company's area, there WAS a conflict, and our
local company had to change names (or...remain forever small and local).

It makes little sense to try to register a trademark in a region in
which you don't do business - and if you DO do business in every
country, the cost of registration in each country is trivial. Paying to
register, and then NOT USING the trademark in a particular country, is
likely to lead to your LOSING the court battle when a conflict arises.

Use it, or lose it.

Note that this is very different from copyright, or patent.

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 6:22:28 PM8/20/07
to


Kenneth Sloan wrote:

>That must be one of the myriad facts about trademark that he's forgotten.

Is there a special on ad hominems this week, Kenneth?


Dave (from the UK)

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 7:10:39 PM8/20/07
to
Guy Macon wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>
>
>>On the other hand, the trademark owner has to defend his trademark
>>once he became aware of violations. If a trademark is not defended,
>>the courts will take the attitude that it is not valuable to the
>>trademark owner. Since the trademark is not valuable to its owner,
>>there can be no harm in somebody else using the name.
>
>
> That's true, and in this case there appears to be nobody defending
> the name. Excellent point.

It is reasonably well known Shane Hudson (original author of Scid) has
been (still is?) seriously ill. Hence Shane has probably not been in a
position to defend the name Scid even if he wanted.

Anyway, I am pleased to see others feel the same way as me. There has
not been a single person here (apart from Pascal Georges ) say they
believe he is right to use the name Scid. There have been numerous
people (I have lost count) who feel he should not be using the name.

To be fair to Pascal, there was one person on the Scid mailing list some
time back who said they felt he should have access to the Scid web site
to use the name Scid. Everyone else who expressed an opinion, felt it
was inappropriate.

I am not aware of anyone ever (apart from Pascal), who has read

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/msg/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a

express any doubts my claims of plagiarism are true. A few have hinted
they believe they are well founded, but to be fair, nobody has actually
said so.

If anyone (apart from Pascal of course), has read

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.chess.computer/msg/dcb9e3c5e4e7266a

and believe my claims of plagiarism by Pascal Georges are not
convincing, then please say so and give a brief reason why.

If you have read it and do believe my claims of plagiarism are well
founded, you please say so. It would be appreciated!!!

--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month...@althorne.org
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/ - a Free open-source Chess Database

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 20, 2007, 8:54:36 PM8/20/07