Kaissa & Botvinik

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Shay Bushinsky

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Oct 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/16/97
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brucemo wrote:

> Hristo wrote:
>
> > The Chess programs today have the same problems "Kaissa" had while
> Botvinik
> > and his team worked on it. Sure the computers are much faster the
> algorithms
> > are more polished .... blah-blah.
>
> Botvinnik had nothing to do with Kaissa, did he?
>
> bruce

To my knowledge Botvinik had nothing to do with Kaissa.
To quote from Russian files I have:

August 1974, the Soviet chess program Kaissa was
victorious in four games, and its developers were awarded a 100-gm gold
medal by the
International Federation of Information Processing with the inscription
"World Computer
Chess Championship" (This may be the Russian version of saying ACM)

Kaissa was developed in 1967 by a group of Moscow mathematicians:
G.M. Adelson-Velsky, V.L Arlazarov, A.V. Uskov
(first two are now in Israel - Velsky is a professor in the Bar-Ilan
university, Mathematics & Computer Science dept.)

M.M. Botvinik headed a program called: "Pioneer".
A major paper describing his system is: "O Kibernetichskoi Tseli Igry"
("Cybernetic Goals of Play")
published in Moscow 1975 in Russian.

In the late 80's I recall he was donated HP computers for Pioneer.
I have not seen any playing record of Pioneer yet would be interested to

know if such exists.

-- Shay Bushinsky


Rolf Tueschen

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Oct 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/16/97
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brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>Shay Bushinsky wrote:

>> In the late 80's I recall he was donated HP computers for Pioneer.
>> I have not seen any playing record of Pioneer yet would be interested to
>>
>> know if such exists.

>I have never ever seen any game, nor have I ever seen any reference to any
>game. I don't think there is any indication that it ever played against
>anyone other than its authors (if even against them).

A very extreme opinion with no evidence at all. :)

Proxy for ICCA, proxy for DB/IBM, and now -- hold it -- proxy for the
masters of Cold War... Does it pay? <spit pot emptied again>

>bruce

brucemo

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Oct 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/16/97
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Robert Hyatt wrote:

> Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states
> that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...

Also, my conclusion is that I haven't seen any evidence, nor have I
seen any allusion to any evidence. It's hard to criticise that
conclusion for lack of evidence.

bruce

brucemo

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Oct 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/16/97
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Shay Bushinsky wrote:

> In the late 80's I recall he was donated HP computers for Pioneer.
> I have not seen any playing record of Pioneer yet would be interested to
>
> know if such exists.

I have never ever seen any game, nor have I ever seen any reference to any
game. I don't think there is any indication that it ever played against
anyone other than its authors (if even against them).

bruce

Martin Borriss

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
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In article <3446C8...@seanet.com>,

I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

:-)

Martin

--
Martin....@inf.tu-dresden.de
.

Rolf Tueschen

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
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brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>Robert Hyatt wrote:

>> Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states
>> that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...

>Also, my conclusion is that I haven't seen any evidence, nor have I
>seen any allusion to any evidence. It's hard to criticise that
>conclusion for lack of evidence.

Not at all, Bruce. You simply can't *prove* the unseen. That it makes
you upset possibly, that is another story.

BTW your error is the base of all the spiritual shit flooding all over
Mother Earth. All the infected people are intelligent enough. But that's
not sufficient. Sometimes one might get the impression that people try
to search for the unprovable myths because the available truths are so
simple and "boring". But that's not true. We must differentiate science
from dreaming. But we could research this dreaming again... :)


Don't feel insulted. Knowing that you are smart enough I advise you to
read some readers about the theory of science One of the most
interesting of this century is Popper and his school. Hypotheses and the
continual challenge to refutate them. BTW he was for open societies and
open discussions because they are the only ones to hold the questions
open if they can't be answered, and some remain for eternity...
[So, it's just the right stuff for CIA agents too... :) ]


Have fun. (Perhaps you start these studies after Paris. How about a
nice stroll through some book shops down by the Seine. Search the adds
for further book hints. Lakatos (very elevated already), Feyerabend
(sometimes really funny) come to mind...)

>bruce

Rolf Tueschen

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
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hyatt@crafty (Robert Hyatt) wrote:

>Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
>: brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>: >Shay Bushinsky wrote:

>: A very extreme opinion with no evidence at all. :)

>Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states
>that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...

I didn't quite get the articles yet. But what is the point of his cheats
then, if he stated all this by himself? You gave the impression up to
now that he had pretended a lot of games too? What is your point? That
soviet programs couldn't play a complete game at all?? That was
refutated by Kaissa. What is your point, Master of the Cold War?

(I still will try to get the articles of course. Although many scanners
might exist around the globe, no? Is JICCA secret like the Vatikan
papers?)

>: Proxy for ICCA, proxy for DB/IBM, and now -- hold it -- proxy for the

Robert Hyatt

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
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Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
: hyatt@crafty (Robert Hyatt) wrote:

: >Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
: >: brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

: >: >Shay Bushinsky wrote:

: >: >> In the late 80's I recall he was donated HP computers for Pioneer.
: >: >> I have not seen any playing record of Pioneer yet would be interested to
: >: >>
: >: >> know if such exists.

: >: >I have never ever seen any game, nor have I ever seen any reference to any
: >: >game. I don't think there is any indication that it ever played against
: >: >anyone other than its authors (if even against them).

: >: A very extreme opinion with no evidence at all. :)

: >Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states
: >that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...

: I didn't quite get the articles yet. But what is the point of his cheats
: then, if he stated all this by himself? You gave the impression up to
: now that he had pretended a lot of games too? What is your point? That
: soviet programs couldn't play a complete game at all?? That was
: refutated by Kaissa. What is your point, Master of the Cold War?

No I did not do any of the above. The article in question was based
on "three positions" (Hint: check out the title of the article when
I posted it, I realize this is complicated, but...) The analysis he
gave was wrong. *terribly* wrong. (hint: check out Berliner's response
in the second article I referenced, it gives variations and analysis to
prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.)

I said *nothing* about Botvinnik claiming he had played many games. Each
time I read or heard something from his group, it was always "Nyet". I
happened to have met the Kiassa programmers in Toronto, 1977 at the 2nd
WCCC. I don't recall ever having said nor implied that *no* Russian
program had ever played chess, that is simply more of your bullshit.
I reported that there are *no* games published that were played by
"pioneer." I also reported that the "author" himself claims to have
not played a complete game. Generally blamed on lack of computing
resources in the former USSR. Again, you suffer from a really serious
mental problem of some sort, or perhaps even an organic problem. Because
you take a critical remark about *one* entity, and somehow assume it
applies to *every* entity that shares some common characteristic. In
this case one Russian program is vaporware, so they all are vaporware.

I hope you grow up enough one day to realize just how stupid you sometimes
sound, and just how much garbage you post here... But then again, you
probably won't...


: (I still will try to get the articles of course. Although many scanners


: might exist around the globe, no? Is JICCA secret like the Vatikan
: papers?)

Only a secret from idiots... Normal folks can find them quite
easily...

: >: Proxy for ICCA, proxy for DB/IBM, and now -- hold it -- proxy for the


: >: masters of Cold War... Does it pay? <spit pot emptied again>

One day, as you get older, you are going to read something written here
and say "My God, what an a**hole to write this." And guess who's name
you are going to find at the bottom? (hint: it *won't* be mine)

And then, perhaps, you will have become wise enough to join in reasonable
discussions here. As it is, I've seen 13 year old kids that ask more
intelligent questions about computer chess than you do. And I'd rather
talk to *them* any day...


Rolf Tueschen

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
to

bor...@inf.tu-dresden.de (Martin Borriss) wrote:

>In article <3446C8...@seanet.com>,
> brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> writes:
>>Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>

>>> Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states
>>> that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...
>>

>>Also, my conclusion is that I haven't seen any evidence, nor have I
>>seen any allusion to any evidence. It's hard to criticise that
>>conclusion for lack of evidence.
>>

>I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
>it.

>:-)

Please be aware of the fact that you were the only one so far here
posting on that subject who got it right.

You got it. See, how it hurts, even if one got it? Phantom limb pains of
the seemingly gone omnipotence of the days before we became *really*
smart, mostly those days gone of our youth. <sniff, sniff> :)


Greetings and gratulations, welcome in the club.

Rolf Tueschen

>Martin

>--
>Martin....@inf.tu-dresden.de
>.

Rolf Tueschen

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
to

hyatt@crafty (Robert Hyatt) wrote:

>Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
>: hyatt@crafty (Robert Hyatt) wrote:

>: >Rolf Tueschen (TUESCHEN.MEDIZ...@t-online.de) wrote:
>: >: brucemo <bru...@seanet.com> wrote:

>: >: >Shay Bushinsky wrote:

>: >: >> In the late 80's I recall he was donated HP computers for Pioneer.
>: >: >> I have not seen any playing record of Pioneer yet would be interested to
>: >: >>
>: >: >> know if such exists.

>: >: >I have never ever seen any game, nor have I ever seen any reference to any
>: >: >game. I don't think there is any indication that it ever played against
>: >: >anyone other than its authors (if even against them).

>: >: A very extreme opinion with no evidence at all. :)

>: >Plenty of "evidence". Read Botvinnik's article. He *clearly* states


>: >that Pioneer has not played *any* complete games...

>: I didn't quite get the articles yet. But what is the point of his cheats


>: then, if he stated all this by himself? You gave the impression up to
>: now that he had pretended a lot of games too? What is your point? That
>: soviet programs couldn't play a complete game at all?? That was
>: refutated by Kaissa. What is your point, Master of the Cold War?

>No I did not do any of the above. The article in question was based
>on "three positions" (Hint: check out the title of the article when
>I posted it, I realize this is complicated, but...) The analysis he
>gave was wrong. *terribly* wrong. (hint: check out Berliner's response
>in the second article I referenced, it gives variations and analysis to
>prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.)

>I said *nothing* about Botvinnik claiming he had played many games. Each
>time I read or heard something from his group, it was always "Nyet". I
>happened to have met the Kiassa programmers in Toronto, 1977 at the 2nd
>WCCC. I don't recall ever having said nor implied that *no* Russian
>program had ever played chess, that is simply more of your bullshit.

Thanks for the info above. But now to bullexcrementals again. :)

In case you are too senile by now... I want to remember you the times
when you were as old as I'm right now. I for one always feel thirsty and
hungry. Know what I'm talking about? I always can't get enough, you
know? You're yet saturated enough? Poor me Bob... :)


>I reported that there are *no* games published that were played by
>"pioneer." I also reported that the "author" himself claims to have
>not played a complete game. Generally blamed on lack of computing
>resources in the former USSR.


And point number one in Cold War, yes or no? ;-)

Ever heard the word 'Cuba', New Orleans Camp Street 544?? :)

>Again, you suffer from a really serious
>mental problem of some sort,

Well ----

>or perhaps even an organic problem.


In the genes? Be more precisesly. :)


>Because
>you take a critical remark about *one* entity, and somehow assume it
>applies to *every* entity that shares some common characteristic. In
>this case one Russian program is vaporware, so they all are vaporware.


Sounds like a typical CIA log from the 50/60ies, no? :)

>I hope you grow up enough one day to realize just how stupid you sometimes
>sound, and just how much garbage you post here... But then again, you
>probably won't...

Wait a second, oh big teacher. You're talking about how it sounds...
Well, if that's a problem of the receiver, of our oh so big teacher?


>: (I still will try to get the articles of course. Although many scanners
>: might exist around the globe, no? Is JICCA secret like the Vatikan
>: papers?)

>Only a secret from idiots... Normal folks can find them quite
>easily...

So it will *prove* that I'm not an idiot anylonger...? :)

>: >: Proxy for ICCA, proxy for DB/IBM, and now -- hold it -- proxy for the
>: >: masters of Cold War... Does it pay? <spit pot emptied again>

>One day, as you get older,

It might cost me *years*............


>you are going to read something written here
>and say "My God, what an a**hole to write this." And guess who's name
>you are going to find at the bottom? (hint: it *won't* be mine)


Aren't we all just big holes in front of God? Even the Pope? So what is
your point?


>And then, perhaps, you will have become wise enough to join in reasonable
>discussions here. As it is, I've seen 13 year old kids that ask more
>intelligent questions about computer chess than you do. And I'd rather
>talk to *them* any day...

You seem to confuse cc and politics/history again.

To repeat it. You and your 13 y. olds keep on doing cc and let me
analyse and preach about the pol. and his. of cc....
Just joking. I meant however Cold War, CIA abuse, John Birch Society,
KKK, Potemkin and all that stuff concerning secret science and gangs.

Hope you'll get the point. What *you* have thankfully, that is the
knowledge of a 'Fachidiot' exclusively on cc field. But as it seems you
lack of the correct embedding into politico-historical
interrelationships.
Whoopie....
Hope you get this one day.
That will be *our* day then, Bobby....

PS Just one of these stupid comments. *That's* why the style of the
Chinatown gang of DB is so full of backwardness. *That* was and still is
Kasparov's point...

(Your problem is mainly that you act here in rgcc with your prg as
Mr. Charming boy. But that is contrasted by your dull proxy job for the
company.)


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