Two Knights/Max Lange Question?

[Pete Dawson]

Hi,

I'm sure I must be missing something here but if someone could enlighten
me I would be grateful.

I have a book called Chess Openings for Juniors by John Walker. The
following line is included:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Nc3 dxc3
8.Bxd5 Be6

the book comments that if 8. ... f5 then white gains the advantage with
9.Ng5

I just cannot see this, what if 9. ...cxb2 Seems to me white is a
piece down??

Thanks
Pete

[Ray Fergerson]

Pete Dawson wrote:
> I have a book called Chess Openings for Juniors by John Walker. The
> following line is included:
>
> 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Nc3 dxc3
> 8.Bxd5 Be6
>
> the book comments that if 8. ... f5 then white gains the advantage with
> 9.Ng5
>
> I just cannot see this, what if 9. ...cxb2 Seems to me white is a
> piece down??

I found this as well (actually Fritz did) when working with this book. I
believe that this line is unsound. At the least Fritz and I couldn't find
anything close to enough compensation for the piece. I think that you have to
play the 7. Bxd5 line here as described elsewhere in the book. For what it is
worth I didn't find any other similar problems in this otherwise excellent book
and I've played the rest of the repertoire recommended there for pretty much two
years.

Ray
USCF 1700

[Amarande]

On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:05:07 +1300, Pete Dawson
<peter....@airways.co.nz> dumped the following into the public bit
supply:

10. Bxb2 is simplest. Black now has no good guard against 11. Nf7. A
likely continuation is 10. Bxb2 Bd7 11. Nf7 Qh4 (or A.) 12. Bxe4 Kxf7
(or B.) 13. Qxd7+ Kg6 (Kg8 14. Qe6#) 14. Qxf5+ Kh6 15. Bc1+ g5 16.
Qf6+ Kh5 17. Bf3+ and mate in two more moves (17. ... Qg4 18. Qxg5# or
17. ... g4 18. Qf5+ Qg5 19. Qxg5#).

A. Neither of the following do well either: 11. ... Qe7 12. Bxe4! and
Black can do nothing, e.g. 12. ... Qxf7? 13. Bd5+ and the Queen goes,
or 12. ... Kxf7? 13. Bd5+ Be6 (else the Queen goes immediately) 14.
Rxe6!! and no matter what Black does, his Queen will be lost by
discovered check. If 12. ... fxe4 13. Nxh8 0-0-0 14. f3 Bf5 15. Qe2 g6
16. fxe4 Bd7 17. Rad1 Bg7 18. Bxg7 Qxg7 19. Nxg6 Qxg6 20. Rb1 and
while the game is materially even, White's Rooks are better able to
take advantage of the open files, and he has a passed Pawn, not to
mention more chances against the Black King than Black does against
White. Or if 11. ... Qc8 12. Nxh8 Be7 (else 13. f3 wins a piece) 13.
Qh5+ 13. ... Kd8 14. Nf7+ and Black's King must go back to e8 allowing
the disastrous double check 15. Nd6, or 13. ... Kf8 14. Qf7+, or 13.
... g6 14. Nxg6! and now:

a) 14. ... hxg6 15. Qxg6+ Kd8 16. Qg8+ Be8 17. Bf7 Qd7 18. Rad1 Nd6
(if Nf6, his Queen is lost with CHECK) 19. Bf6 a6 (or any other
indifferent move. Black is in too many pins to do anything - 19. ...
Bxf6? loses a piece after 20. Rxd6! cxd6 (Qxd6 21. Qxe8#) 21. Rxe8+
and 22. Rxa8, or 19. ... Kc8? 20. Bxe8 and Black cannot recapture) 20.
Bxe7+ Nxe7 21. Bxe8 Qxe8 22. Qxe8+ Kxe8 23. Re6 Kf7 24. Rde1 Nc6 25.
c3, and the endgame is certainly in White's favor here.

b) 14. ... Nf6 15. Bxf6.

c) 14. ... Kd8 15. Nh8 (threatening 16. Nf7+ and 17. Nd6+) Be8 16.
Bxe4 fxe4 17. Qxh7 followed by Qxe4 and Black is the Exchange and
three Pawns down.

d) indifferent moves permit 15. Ne5+ Kd8 16. Nf7+ Ke8 17. Nd6+.

B. Trying to save his KR while avoiding a discovered check, but he
only succeeds in getting mated. Better is 12. ... fxe4, but then 13.
Nxh8 0-0-0 14. f3 exf3 15. Nf7 Re8 16. Rxe8+ Bxe8 17. Qf3 Bc5+ 18. Kh1
Bxf7 19. Qxf7 Bd6 20. h3, and Black's counterplay is at an end. White
is still the exchange up, and the Pawn Black has as his only material
compensation will soon go. In short, Black is lost.

[KJ2350]

>Subject: Two Knights/Max Lange Question?
>From: Pete Dawson peter....@airways.co.nz
>Date: 11/1/00 6:05 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3A00AFB3...@airways.co.nz>

The answer is 10.Nxe4! fxe4 (the threat was 11.Nf6 mate) 11.Rxe4+ Ne7 12.Bxb2,
when White is down a piece but look at the attack! (13.Qf3, or even 13.Qh5+
g6 14.Qf3 will be lethal.) In fact 12...Bf5 13.Qf3! (Tartakower) is winning.

[RICHARD BEAN]

Amarande <ava...@concentric.net> wrote:
(After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Nc3
dxc3 8.Bxd5 f5 9.Ng5 cxb2...)

: 10. Bxb2 is simplest. Black now has no good guard against 11. Nf7. A

10. Bxb2? Qxg5 just wins.

The idea of 9. Ng5 is probably one or more of:
- clear the d1-h5 diagonal for the WQ so it can go to f3 or h5
- play f3, pinning the knight against the king (not possible here)
- swap off the knight on e4 - one less piece between the WR and BK

So I would think that since

(a) 10. Bxb2? Qxg5
(b) 10. Qh5+? g6 and there's no followup
(c) 10. Bxe4? fxe4 and no pin can recover the piece

that 10. Nxe4 is forced, then black must play 10...fxe4 because
of the 11.Nf6# mate threat. Then White plays 11. Rxe4 and after
either ...Ne7 or ...Be7, 11. Bxb2.

It's not immediately apparent how White wins but it's a pretty great
attacking position for White. If you set up the position after each of
...Ne7 and ...Be7 (a computer chess expert, Hans Berliner, recommends
doing this sort of thing in difficult positions) a computer will find its
score dropping continually.

[Amarande]

On 2 Nov 2000 05:13:00 GMT, RICHARD BEAN <s32...@student.uq.edu.au>

dumped the following into the public bit supply:

>Amarande <ava...@concentric.net> wrote:

>(After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Nc3
>dxc3 8.Bxd5 f5 9.Ng5 cxb2...)
>
>: 10. Bxb2 is simplest. Black now has no good guard against 11. Nf7. A
>
>10. Bxb2? Qxg5 just wins.

*grumble*

I *hate* it when I bungle up analysis like that :>

Though I recall reading in the Fireside Book of Chess that even the
*masters* aren't proof from this. They mention an opening variation
where after a number of moves, the authors state that Black has the
superior position. Except White can mate on the move. :>

[Pete Dawson]

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm really grateful..

Pete

[Stefan Rooijakkers]

KJ2350 wrote:

My book on the Max Lange also mentions this exact line, but it's not so clear to
me that this line is winning for white e.g. 13. ... c6 14. Bxc6 bxc6 15 Qxf5 Qd5
and black maybe even a little better, although it's unclear to me.
I think this line can be fun to play in blitz games, but it maybe unsound for
regular games, with normal time controls. Then it's better to play the 7. Bxd5
lines instead of 7. Nxc3.

Stefan

[Richard Bean]

Resurrecting my 22 year old thread with Stockfish, I see this was rubbish in one variation.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Nc3 dxc3 8.Bxd5 f5?
( 8...Be6 9.Bxe4 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 cxb2 11.Bxb2 f6 )
9.Ng5 cxb2 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Rxe4+ Be7
( 11...Ne7? 12.Bxb2 Bf5 13.Qf3 c6)
12.Bxb2 Bf5 13.Re2 Qd7 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.Ba3 O-O-O 16.Qxd7+ Rxd7 17.Rxe7 Rhd8 18.Rxd7 Rxd7 19.Bc5 a5

This position is heading towards a draw with opposite coloured bishops.

The book was right that 8... f5 is worse than 8... Be6, but 7. Bxd5 which is the main line is also better than this 7. Nc3 side line.