1.e4 with 5.NxR mate or 5...NxR mate
Leo Evers
A friend of mine recently gave me a difficult chess problem to solve:
From the initial position white plays 1.e4, and in the fifth move (from
white OR black) , one of the kings is mated by a move "5.Knight takes Rook
mate".
This turns out to be not easy, since 10 players, all of them future chess
trainers tried to find the solution without success even after more than
five ours, while the other participants, not knowing the question, start to
think we're getting mad triying to find the "refutation" of 1.e4!!
If anyone out there knows a solution, please contact me. May be there is
one in some kind of "chess-riddle"-book.
By the way, my best try was 1.e4 Nc6 2.a4 Nb4 3.Ne2 Nxc2 4.Ra3 Nb4 5.Rd3
NxRd3# , but as you can see this was illegal to due the not answered check
3...Nxc2+.
The person who place the riddle (and took our sleep) mentioned that this
riddle can't be solved by several GM's and that John Nunn is the author.
Please help and please apologize this bad english.
Leo Evers
Sverre Johnsen
I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
If you like this kind of problem you can try this one:
A game opens 1.a3 and white's fifth move is to give mate with a rook.
Please notify me if you find a collection of this kind of problems (from
the initial position). I have a collection of about 12 problems, but would
like to see more.
Sverre Johnsen
Norway
Leo Evers <nc-ev...@sk.netcologne.de> wrote in article
<01bd835c$2b942180$eec408c2@leo-evers>...
ray johnstone
"Leo Evers" <nc-ev...@sk.netcologne.de> wrote:
>A friend of mine recently gave me a difficult chess problem to solve:
>From the initial position white plays 1.e4, and in the fifth move (from
>white OR black) , one of the kings is mated by a move "5.Knight takes Rook
>mate".
>This turns out to be not easy, since 10 players, all of them future chess
>trainers tried to find the solution without success even after more than
>five ours, while the other participants, not knowing the question, start to
>think we're getting mad triying to find the "refutation" of 1.e4!!
>If anyone out there knows a solution, please contact me. May be there is
>one in some kind of "chess-riddle"-book.
>By the way, my best try was 1.e4 Nc6 2.a4 Nb4 3.Ne2 Nxc2 4.Ra3 Nb4 5.Rd3
>NxRd3# , but as you can see this was illegal to due the not answered check
>3...Nxc2+.
>The person who place the riddle (and took our sleep) mentioned that this
>riddle can't be solved by several GM's and that John Nunn is the author.
>Please help and please apologize this bad english.
Seems hardly possible - are you sure it isn't 6 moves? eg 1e4 f6 2Qg4
Kf7 3Ne2 Qe8 4Nf4 ~ 5Ng6 ~ 6NxR mate
There appear to be 2 possibilities:
If the rook to be captured doesn't move, then it takes 4 moves for the
knight to do so. Add e4 and there are no moves left to block the
king's escape squares.
If the rook does move, it takes 3 moves to put it on a mating square
eg d6 and another 3 to unguard the square.
But the resources of chess problems never cease to amaze me so I may
well be wrong.
J.R.Johnstone (Ray Johnstone)
r...@iinet.com.au
www.iinet.com.au/~ray
AlefZero
On 20 May 1998 06:25:22 GMT, "Sverre Johnsen" <Sverre....@dnv.com>
wrote:
>I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
>there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
>
>If you like this kind of problem you can try this one:
>A game opens 1.a3 and white's fifth move is to give mate with a rook.
>
This is easier that previous one (NxR), I suppose. And knowing that
first move was 1.a3 actually makes it much easier.
>Please notify me if you find a collection of this kind of problems (from
>the initial position). I have a collection of about 12 problems, but would
>like to see more.
Ok, perhaps you know this, but...
Initial position with following differences:
1. There is no white bishop (Bf1)
2. One white pawn is on e4, all others on 2nd line.
3. From black c,d,e pawns there are two left: on c6 and e6.
The goal is to achieve this position in 4 moves (white to move in
final position)
AlefZero
Sverre Johnsen
Thank you. I know it, but it is a very nice puzzle.
I will leave it to the readers to figure it out. I will just say that
black's 2nd move contains the idea and if you find it the rest is easy.
Sverre Johnsen
AlefZero <alef...@somewhere.pl> wrote in article
<35629d3a...@news.tpsa.pl>...
Friedrich Volkmann
>I have a collection of about 12 problems, but would
>like to see more.
Do you know this one: Black mates the white king on move 5 by pawn
promotion to a knight.
cu, Friedrich
Sverre Johnsen
Yes, I know it. This is also a very nice mating pattern.
But as it absolutely clear that all black's moves must be pawn moves, it is
not a very tough nut to crack.
I think it is a part of a "twin" problem created by Pal Benko. The second
twin is a mate in 5 with a pawn promotion to bishop. (I must admit that I
can not remember the solution of the bishop problem, but I think I have it
written down at home.)
I am very glad you post these problems. Maybe soon there will come
something I have not seen before.
Sverre Johnsen
Friedrich Volkmann <fkvol...@telekabel.at> wrote in article
<3562b1e7....@news.telekabel.at>...
AlefZero
On Wed, 20 May 1998 09:08:59 GMT, alef...@somewhere.pl (AlefZero)
wrote:
>On 20 May 1998 06:25:22 GMT, "Sverre Johnsen" <Sverre....@dnv.com>
>wrote:
>>Please notify me if you find a collection of this kind of problems (from
>>the initial position). I have a collection of about 12 problems, but would
>>like to see more.
>
More puzzles:
1. Initial position, without Ng1 and Ng8. Black pawn on d5 instead of
d7
2. White plays: 1.f3 2.Kf2 3.Kg3 4.Kh4. Black has to mate in 4 moves,
not interfering with white's plan.
3. Symmetrical games. Black has to repeat white moves (i.e. 1.e4 e5 2.
Nf3 Nf6). Goal is to mate with certain piece as soon as possible. So:
what is the minimal number of moves to mate with:
a) queen
b) rook
c) bishop
d) knight
e) pawn
f) king
a) is very simple, one of at least two solutions is: 1. d4 d5 2.Qd3
Qd6 3. Qh3 Qh6 4.Qxc8 #
AlefZero
Sverre Johnsen
I know number 1 and 2 and number 3 a.
But number 3 b, c, d, e and f are unknown to me. Are there any really
elegant solutions (worth spending hours to solve)?
To number 1 I may add: This can be solved in 4 moves. Can you also remove
Nb1 and Nb8 in one more move ( = 5 moves)
We are nearing the end of my collection now. I also have:
- shortest stalemate without capturing pieces
- shortest stalemate with captures allowed
- shortest discovered mate
I also have a few less impressive, like shortest game where one side loses
all pieces except the king and a few retrograde problems (how can this
position be reached from the initial position in x number of moves) but few
of them are as elegant.
Sverre Johnsen
AlefZero <alef...@somewhere.pl> wrote in article
Remco Gerlich
How about this one:
White has all his pieces in the original position, Black has a lone king.
Where should the black king be in order to allow a _forced_ mate in 3 by White?
(Sam Loyd, 1858).
As a very hard b) question: What's the lowest number of moves in which this
position can be reached? What are these moves?
Also, in "mirror-chess" (ie black copying white a la 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.h4 h5),
you can look at "double-stalemate". Neither side could move if it were their
move. I'll provide answers in ROT-13 right away since these problems are kinda
hard, and I wouldn't want people to loose a lot of sleep over it (unless they
want to...) All answers are from old "Schakend Nederland" magazines, offical
magazine of the Dutch chess federation... They are not the proven best
solutions, but the best known ones (probably best).
a) What's the fastest mirrored double stalemate?
1.q4 q5 2.Os4 Os5 3.u3 u6 4.As3 As6 5.At5 At4 6.ukt4 ukt5 7.Ou2 Ou7 8.Ap3 Ap6
9.Ar4 Ar5 10.qkr5 qkr4 11.Dq4 Dq5 12.Dkn7 Dkn2 13.Dko7 Dko2 14.En3 En6 15.Dkn6
Dkn3 16.p4 p5 17.Dt6 Dt3 18.skt3 skt6 19.Xs2 Xs7 20.Xt1 Xt8 21.r6 r3 qbhoyr
fgnyrzngr, BE 1.o4 o5 2.Ap3 Ap6 3.q4 q5 4.r4 r5 5.Op4 Op5 6.Or3 Or6 7.Du5 Du4
8.B-B-B B-B-B 9.Xo2 Xo7 10.Xn3 Xn6 11.qkp5 qkp4 12.Dku7 Dku2 13.Dku8 Dku1
14.Dkt8 Dkt1 15.Dkt7 Dkt2 16.Dks7 Dks2 17.Dkr6 Dkr3 18.Dq5 Dq4 19.Ekq4 Ekq5
20.rkq5 rkq4 21.qkp6 qkp3 qbhoyr-fgnyrzngr.
b) What's the mirrored double stalemate with the most pieces left?
1.n4 n5 2.u4 u5 3.En3 En6 4.Enu3 Enu6 5.o4 o5 6.okn5 okn4 7.n6 n3 8.n7 n2 9.n8O
n1O 10.Or4 Or5 11.q4 q5 12.Os4 Os5 13.Ou2 Ou7 14.t3 t6 15.Ort2 Ort7 16.Dq3 Dq6
17.Ds5 Ds4 18.tks4 tks5 19.s3 s6 20.Xs2 Xs7 21.Xt3 Xt6 22.Ap3 Ap6 23.Ar4 Ar5
24.qkr5 qkr4 25.r6 r3 26.p4 p5 qbhoyr-fgnyrzngr, 26 cvrprf yrsg.
c) What's the mirrored double stalemate with the LEAST pieces left?
1.r4 r5 2.Dt4 Dt5 3.n3 n6 4.Okn6 Okn3 5.Ekn3 Ekn6 6.Ar2 Ar7 7.B-B B-B 8.Xu1 Xu8
9.Dkq7 Dkq2 10.Dkr7 Dkr2 11.Dkp7 Dkp2 12.Dko8 Dko1 13.Dko7 Dko2 14.Dkp8 Dkp1
15.Dt4 Dt5 16.Et3 Et6 17.s4 s5 18.skt5 skt4 19.Es4 Es5 20.tks5 tks4 21.skt6 skt3
22.tku7 tku2 23.t6 t3 qbhoyr-fgnyrzngr, 8 cvrprf yrsg.
These problems are getting really silly, but they have cute end positions...
Remco Gerlich
Ali Tofigh
I’ve been scratching my head, barely sleeping at all ever since I read about
this puzzle and I still can’t understand how it can be done. Here are some
thoughts. (please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
All these thoughts are based on the assumption that the hint given earlier
is true, that is, the black knight will take the white rook on h1.
It will take black a minimum of 4 moves to get to h1 with the knight. That
leaves him with one additional move, which must be a pawn move, since
bringing the other knight on b8 will accomplish nothing. We can also see
that for the last check to be delivered black must check with his knight on
h1 (There’s no way of creating a discovered check). The White king must
therefore be either on f2 or g3.
KING ON F2: This is impossible, since there is no way white can with a
sequence of 5 moves (with e4 being the first one) fill all eight squares
around the king. For example white can try
e4, f3 (a must since the king must go to f2), Kf2…
and now there’s now way white can with two moves fill three squares (e1, e2,
e3) with his own pieces. And also note that no single move of black kan have
any impact on any critical squares. I strongly believe that the king cannot
be checkmated on f2, but PLEASE if anybody has any other ideas kindly share
it with me…
KING ON G3: If there is a solution to this problem this must be it, but I
just can’t see how it can be done. Of the 8 squares around the king and with
the black knight on h1, black can only control at most 4 squares with moves
like e5, d6 and g5. I can’t see how white with one move (with the first
moves being almost obligatory if the king is to be checkmated on g3: e4, f3
or f4, Kf2, Kg3) can possibly occupy two squares… It seems to me like simple
arithmetic (but then chess never is…). So does anybody have any comments?
And those of you who know the solution… could you please just point out
where I’m going wrong? Thank you ….
Sverre Johnsen skrev i meddelandet <01bd83b7$fb557ee0$7f6410ac@oslpcf37>...
>I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
>there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
>
>If you like this kind of problem you can try this one:
>A game opens 1.a3 and white's fifth move is to give mate with a rook.
>
>Please notify me if you find a collection of this kind of problems (from
>the initial position). I have a collection of about 12 problems, but would
>like to see more.
>
>
>Sverre Johnsen
>Norway
AlefZero
On 20 May 1998 13:37:51 GMT, in rec.games.chess.analysis you wrote:
>I know number 1 and 2 and number 3 a.
>But number 3 b, c, d, e and f are unknown to me. Are there any really
>elegant solutions (worth spending hours to solve)?
Some should be easy. Some could be worth a try, though. Perhaps better
solution can be found, who knows?
>To number 1 I may add: This can be solved in 4 moves. Can you also remove
>Nb1 and Nb8 in one more move ( = 5 moves)
>We are nearing the end of my collection now. I also have:
>- shortest stalemate without capturing pieces
>- shortest stalemate with captures allowed
>- shortest discovered mate
>I also have a few less impressive, like shortest game where one side loses
>all pieces except the king and a few retrograde problems (how can this
>position be reached from the initial position in x number of moves) but few
>of them are as elegant.
Ok, so we could start retrograde problems now...
I also have few of them, together with other strange puzzles, i.e.
longest check sequence etc.
AlefZero
P.S. NxR problem is very nice :-)
AlefZero
On Wed, 20 May 1998 16:49:29 +0200, "Ali Tofigh" <d97...@nada.kth.se>
wrote:
>I’ve been scratching my head, barely sleeping at all ever since I read about
>this puzzle and I still can’t understand how it can be done. Here are some
>thoughts. (please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
>
>All these thoughts are based on the assumption that the hint given earlier
>is true, that is, the black knight will take the white rook on h1.
>
> That leaves him with one additional move, which must be a pawn move, since
>bringing the other knight on b8 will accomplish nothing.
This sentence isn't correct, altough it can look so.
AlefZero
Hurree
Ok, I've proven (to myself) that this problem is unsolvable
although I can get to within 1 square of doing it in 5 moves.
In fact, I'm so certain that there is no solution, that if someone
posts a legitimate solution, I will *eat* my copy of Modern Chess
Openings.
(If you do post a solution, remember to leave some blank `spoiler'
space. I will be totally blown away if it exists.)
Below is my proof, if you're interested.
To restate my understanding of the problem, from standard starting
position white plays 1.e4, legal moves are played, and black plays
5...N:Rx (Knight takes rook, checkmate). I did not consider any
`tricky' solutions that bend this terminology, particularly pawn
promotion via rook capture to knight. Thus the captured rook and
the white king must be a knight-move apart. Either the king moves,
the rook moves, or both move.
1. Moving the rook doesn't work; this is clear from inspection
because it requires too many moves to get the rook to a
proper square and shut down the king's escape squares.
2. Assuming that only the king moves, it must be mated on f2 or g3.
3. Black requires 4 moves to get the knight to h1. This leaves
one useful move to spare.
4. The one useful move must necessarily be a pawn move. Only black's
d, e, f, g, and h pawns are candidates as they either attack
4th rank squares or allow black's bishop or queen to do the same.
The squares black attacks using these moves are as follows:
...d5 or ...d6 -> g4 + h3 by the c8 bishop
...e5 -> f4 + h4 by the black queen (but not g4)
...f5 -> g4
...g5 -> f4 + h4
...h5 -> g4
We can eliminate all but ...d5 and ...e5 as redundant and/or
less effective. Note that using this spare move black can cover
at most 2 squares in the area of of interest, on white's fourth
rank on the kingside.
5. Case I: The white king is mated on f2. This requires only 3
moves by white to set up: 1.e4, then f3, then Kf2. This leaves
white 2 moves to set his king up for suffocation. Unfortunately
the king on f2 has 3 escape squares (e1, e2, and e3), so no 2 moves
by white can cover all three). There might have been more hope
if white played 1.e3. Thus Case I is ruled out as a possible
solution.
6. Case II: The white king is mated on g3 by the black knight
moving Nf2:h1x. This requires 4 moves by white to set up:
1. e4, then (f3 or f4), then Kf2, then Kg3. We now have a
setup where black has made 4 of 5 moves and so has white.
The white f pawn is ambiguously on either f3 or f4, and white
has one move and black has one move to spare. (If this problem
really is solvable, then I suspect this is the right idea...)
7. Case IIa: White has moved the f pawn to f4. Now f4, g2, and h2
are occupied, the king is in check on g3, and f2 is covered. This
leaves f3, g4, h4, and h3 to either occupy or cover with one
move for each side (4 squares). Black can cover at most 2, and
white can obstruct at most one by, for example, moving his
queen to f3. This leaves one uncovered, unobstructed flight
square, so mate is impossible.
8. Case IIb: White moves the f pawn to f3. As in case 2, this allows
the white king 4 flight squares from g3: f4, g4, h4, and h3.
Again black can cover only two of them using his pawn move, so
white must obstruct the other two. This is impossible using
only one move. Case IIb is ruled out.
9. Another alternative is that both king and rook move. This is an
interesting possibility. There are three possible cases here:
KRI: King on e2, R on g1
KRII: King of f2, R on h3
KRIII: King on f1, R on h2
10. KRI: King on e2, R on g1 takes 5 moves for white, as the g1 knight
must not only vacate g1 but also move a second time so as not to
be able to recapture on g1. Interestingly black's queen knight
gets to g1 fastest (in 4 moves) so black has one move to spare
but white's king on e2 has 2 flight squares on e3 and d3 which
black can not cover. (This is with white playing Ng1-f3-e1.)
11. KRII: King on f2, R on h3 requires 7 (!) moves to set up for white:
1.e4, f pawn moves, Kf2, h4, Rh3, and now white's g1 knight
and g2 pawn both cover h3. This case is no good.
12. KRIII: R on h2 takes 2 moves, plus 1.e4, plus B on f1 vacates
plus Kf1 = 5 moves for white. However, black here can play
Ng8-f6-g4-h2 and therefore has 2 extra moves to play.
Unfortunately there is no way to cover the e1 square with
those two moves, so this is not a solution.
Conclusion: Having ruled out castling (too many moves required by
white) and the other situations (e.g. discovered checks) I think the
problem is unsolvable.
I have a lot of respect for problem composers, but I also have
confidence in my reasoning ability. Hence this is a very interesting
question for me; does the solution really exist? My lunch depends on
it!
-r
ray johnstone
"Sverre Johnsen" <Sverre....@dnv.com> wrote:
>I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
>there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
<snip>
The minimum number of moves for Nxh1 is 4. So the other black piece
producing the mate is a pawn?
ray johnstone
elk...@fuxpam.math.harvard.edu wrote:
<snip>
>1 e4 Nf6 2 Qe2 N:e4 3 f3 Ng3 4 Q:e7+ Q:e7+ (aha!) 5 Kf2 N:h1#
>There is the slight blemish that the solution is not quite unique:
>White's second and third moves could be played in either order.
Blemish maybe, very cute anyway.
Spencer R. Lower
Your analysis is the same as mine. I can only conclude that this is a
fairy chess problem, In which case my solution is 1.e4 NxR++. Why
wait 5 moves?
"Ali Tofigh" <d97...@nada.kth.se> wrote:
>I’ve been scratching my head, barely sleeping at all ever since I read about
>this puzzle and I still can’t understand how it can be done. Here are some
>thoughts. (please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
>All these thoughts are based on the assumption that the hint given earlier
>is true, that is, the black knight will take the white rook on h1.
>It will take black a minimum of 4 moves to get to h1 with the knight. That
>leaves him with one additional move, which must be a pawn move, since
>bringing the other knight on b8 will accomplish nothing. We can also see
>that for the last check to be delivered black must check with his knight on
>h1 (There’s no way of creating a discovered check). The White king must
>therefore be either on f2 or g3.
>KING ON F2: This is impossible, since there is no way white can with a
>sequence of 5 moves (with e4 being the first one) fill all eight squares
>around the king. For example white can try
>e4, f3 (a must since the king must go to f2), Kf2…
>and now there’s now way white can with two moves fill three squares (e1, e2,
>e3) with his own pieces. And also note that no single move of black kan have
>any impact on any critical squares. I strongly believe that the king cannot
>be checkmated on f2, but PLEASE if anybody has any other ideas kindly share
>it with me…
>KING ON G3: If there is a solution to this problem this must be it, but I
>just can’t see how it can be done. Of the 8 squares around the king and with
>the black knight on h1, black can only control at most 4 squares with moves
>like e5, d6 and g5. I can’t see how white with one move (with the first
>moves being almost obligatory if the king is to be checkmated on g3: e4, f3
>or f4, Kf2, Kg3) can possibly occupy two squares… It seems to me like simple
>arithmetic (but then chess never is…). So does anybody have any comments?
>And those of you who know the solution… could you please just point out
>where I’m going wrong? Thank you ….
>Sverre Johnsen skrev i meddelandet <01bd83b7$fb557ee0$7f6410ac@oslpcf37>...
>>I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
>>there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
>>
Sverre Johnsen
That's new to me, and seems to fit well with my other problems. I will use
the weekend trying to solve it.
Sverre Johnsen
theodore hwa <hwat...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote in article
<6jvru9$a8r$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
> Sverre Johnsen (Sverre....@dnv.com) wrote:
> : I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1
and
> : there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
> :
> : If you like this kind of problem you can try this one:
> : A game opens 1.a3 and white's fifth move is to give mate with a rook.
> :
> : Please notify me if you find a collection of this kind of problems
(from
> : the initial position). I have a collection of about 12 problems, but
would
> : like to see more.
>
> Here's another one:
>
> Find a game that ends in 6. gxf8=N mate
>
>
> Ted
>
Stephan Bird
elk...@fuxpam.math.harvard.edu wrote:
>
> In article <6jvru9$a8r$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,
> theodore hwa <hwat...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> >Sverre Johnsen (Sverre....@dnv.com) wrote:
> >: I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
> >: there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
>
> There is the slight blemish that the solution is not quite unique:
> White's second and third moves could be played in either order.
Nice ;), however I think you're wrong in assuming that White's second
and third can be transposed. Surely if 2. f3 Ne4 3. fxe4 !! and where's
the mate now.. Admittedly in this case White probably should have played
4. hxg3 as well, but that *is* being picky.
Fun problems though...
Stephan Bird
--
Stephan Bird; e-mail ch6...@bath.ac.uk
WWW http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ch6sjb/home.htm
Views above are not necessarily those of the University of Bath, England
theodore hwa
Stephan Bird (ch6...@bath.ac.uk) wrote:
: elk...@fuxpam.math.harvard.edu wrote:
: >
: > In article <6jvru9$a8r$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,
: > theodore hwa <hwat...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
: > >Sverre Johnsen (Sverre....@dnv.com) wrote:
: > >: I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
: > >: there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
: >
: > 1 e4 Nf6 2 Qe2 N:e4 3 f3 Ng3 4 Q:e7+ Q:e7+ (aha!) 5 Kf2 N:h1#
: > There is the slight blemish that the solution is not quite unique:
: > White's second and third moves could be played in either order.
: > Remarkably the next two problems have absolutely unique solutions:
:
: Nice ;), however I think you're wrong in assuming that White's second
: and third can be transposed. Surely if 2. f3 Ne4 3. fxe4 !! and where's
: the mate now.. Admittedly in this case White probably should have played
: 4. hxg3 as well, but that *is* being picky.
There's no requirement to play well here, only legally.
It is legal to play 1. e4 Nf6 2. f3 N:e4 3. Qe2 etc. Obviously, Black
can't _force_ the mate.
Ted
Sverre Johnsen
> 3. Symmetrical games. Black has to repeat white moves (i.e. 1.e4 e5 2.
> Nf3 Nf6). Goal is to mate with certain piece as soon as possible. So:
> what is the minimal number of moves to mate with:
> a) queen
> b) rook
> c) bishop
> d) knight
> e) pawn
> f) king
> a) is very simple, one of at least two solutions is: 1. d4 d5 2.Qd3
> Qd6 3. Qh3 Qh6 4.Qxc8 #
>
> AlefZero
>
Could you give me the minimum number for 3.b, 3.c, 3.d, 3.e and 3.f. I have
been working a bit on this in my weekend. I ended up with the following
numbers.
b) 7
c) 7
d) 6
e) 7
f) 11
Sverre Johnsen
Michal Rudolf
On 25 May 1998 07:39:40 GMT, "Sverre Johnsen" <Sverre....@dnv.com>
wrote:
>> 3. Symmetrical games. Black has to repeat white moves (i.e. 1.e4 e5 2.
>> Nf3 Nf6). Goal is to mate with certain piece as soon as possible. So:
>> what is the minimal number of moves to mate with:
>> a) queen
>> b) rook
>> c) bishop
>> d) knight
>> e) pawn
>> f) king
>Could you give me the minimum number for 3.b, 3.c, 3.d, 3.e and 3.f. I have
>been working a bit on this in my weekend. I ended up with the following
>numbers.
>b) 7
>c) 7
>d) 6
>e) 7
>f) 11
>
>Sverre Johnsen
b) rook - 6, c) bishop - 7 (both light and dark square bishops)7
d) knight - 6, e) pawn - 7 (2 solutions), f) king -9
Good luck!
Michal alias AlefZero
Sverre Johnsen
Michal Rudolf <mru...@rainbow.mimuw.edu.pl> wrote in article
<3569706...@news.tpsa.pl>...
Thank you!
For so long I seem to have got these right:
Light squared Bishop: 1.b3 b6 2.Bb2 Bb7 3.f4 f5 4.e3 e6 5.Be2 Be7 6.Bxg7
Bxg2 7.Bh5 mate
Knight: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 Nge7 4.g3 g6 5.Nd5 Nd4 6.Nf6 mate
Pawn: 1.g4 g5 2.f4 f5 3.gxf5 gxf4 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Ne5 Ne4 6.f6 f3 7.f7mate
I need to work on the rooks (doesn't seem too difficult) and kings mate. So
far I have 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Nxe4 4.Nxf7 Nxf2 5.Kxf2 Kxf7 6.g3 g6
7.Bg2 Bg7 8.Rf1 Rf8 9.Qe2 Qe7 10.Kf3 Kf6 11.Kg4 mate. For the moment I have
no idea how to shorten this, but at least I now know it is possible.
I didn't consider the mate with dark squared bishop, but will give it a
try.
Ilias Kastanas
A new one: checkmate by 6. P promotes without capture to N.
In article <01bd85ce$280c64e0$e4424382@default>,
Sverre Johnsen <svj...@online.no> wrote:
>theodore hwa <hwat...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote in article
><6jvru9$a8r$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
>> Sverre Johnsen (Sverre....@dnv.com) wrote:
>> : I will give you two hints for a start: The white rook is captured on h1 and
>> : there are two black pieces taking part in the mating picture.
>> :
>> : If you like this kind of problem you can try this one:
>> : A game opens 1.a3 and white's fifth move is to give mate with a rook.
>> :
>> Here's another one:
>>
>> Find a game that ends in 6. gxf8=N mate
We also have: checkmate by 5. ... P promotes to B.
[SPOILER]
Comments: 1. a3 Easy; only one way to get the R out quickly.
6. g:f8=N One notes it would take too long to move
the BQ away
5...N:h1 Attempts to mate the WK on g3: ...e5 to
control f4,h4 or ...d5 to control g4,h3
They fall short. Mating Kf2 needs a way
to cover e1,e2,e3 ...
5... P=B After doing the previous, this isn't hard.
Solutions:
1. a3, e5 2. Nc3, B:a3 3. Ne4, Bf8 4. Ra5, Ke7 5. R:e5 #
1. h4, d5 2. h5, Nd7 3. h6, Ndf6 4. h:g7, Kd7 5. Rh6, Ne8 6. g:f8=N #
1. e4, Nf6 2. f3, N:e4 3. Qe2, Ng3 4. Q:e7+, Q:e7+ 5. Kf2, N:h1 #
1. c3, d5 2. e4, d:e4 3. Qb3, e3 4. Kd1, e:d2 5. Kc2, d1=B #
Ilias
Ilias Kastanas
In article <35635E...@arsc.edu>, Hurree <fat...@arsc.edu> wrote:
>Ok, I've proven (to myself) that this problem is unsolvable
>although I can get to within 1 square of doing it in 5 moves.
>In fact, I'm so certain that there is no solution, that if someone
>posts a legitimate solution, I will *eat* my copy of Modern Chess
>Openings.
I posted it... and I hereby release you from this pledge! Hey,
it's not MCO's fault it omits this line...
[...]
>Conclusion: Having ruled out castling (too many moves required by
> white) and the other situations (e.g. discovered checks) I think the
> problem is unsolvable.
>
>I have a lot of respect for problem composers, but I also have
>confidence in my reasoning ability. Hence this is a very interesting
>question for me; does the solution really exist? My lunch depends on
>it!
Your reasoning ability is fine; did you give it full and correct
chess facts to work with, though? It's mate if W blocks the 3 escape
squares... but so it is if B covers them. B's one non-Knight move could
be a P move... but it could also be something else, in response to a W move.
Mate on g3 seems most likely at first, yes; but when it doesn't
work out, one looks more carefully at the other case!
Ilias
Sverre Johnsen
That's also new to me. I have quite a few problems of this kind to struggle
with now, so I'm afraid I will need some solutions too. But I'm very exited
about all these nice puzzles.
Sverre Johnsen
Ilias Kastanas <ika...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<6ke4av$h...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
Ilias Kastanas
In article <01bd87e6$35bf01a0$7f6410ac@oslpcf37>,
You can do Rook in 6:
1. Nf3 2. Ng5 3. N:h7 4. N:f8 5. Ne6 6. R:h8 #
You can do King in 9:
1. Nf3 2. Ng5 3. N:h7 4. f3 5. Kf2 6. Kg3 7. Kh3 8. N:f8 9. Kg4 #
Ilias
Sverre Johnsen
Ahh...
Very elegant!
Then I can consentrate on checkmate by 6. P promotes without capture to N.
But first I will have to consentrate on my work for a few more hours...
Sverre Johnsen
Ilias Kastanas <ika...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<6keasc$k...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
> In article <01bd87e6$35bf01a0$7f6410ac@oslpcf37>,
> Sverre Johnsen <Sverre....@dnv.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Michal Rudolf <mru...@rainbow.mimuw.edu.pl> wrote in article
> ><3569706...@news.tpsa.pl>...
>
D.Regis
Chernev's "Wonders and Curiosities of Chess" gives a real game by
Ballard which ended with Pawn takes something=N mate ... in seven
moves!
D
--
_
/ "()/~ May your pieces harmonise with your Pawn structure and &8^D
|| \_/| your sacrifices be sound in all variations Dave Regis
~\ / Exeter Chess Coaching Page
_|||__SHEU ~/sheu.html http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/chess.html
Joost de Heer
In <6keasc$k...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> ika...@alumni.caltech.edu (Ilias Kastanas) writes:
:1. Nf3 2. Ng5 3. N:h7 4. f3 5. Kf2 6. Kg3 7. Kh3 8. N:f8 9. Kg4 #
9. ... Nh2. Unless it's forbidden to answer with a non-symmetric move.
: Ilias
Joost
--
Don't believe in fear, don't believe in pain
Don't believe in anyone that you can't tame [Stupid girl]
[Garbage ]
You stupid girl, all you had you wasted
Ilias Kastanas
In article <6kj8hv$fcs$1...@fanth.sci.kun.nl>,
Joost de Heer <joo...@sci.kun.nl> wrote:
>In <6keasc$k...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> ika...@alumni.caltech.edu (Ilias Kastanas) writes:
>
>:1. Nf3 2. Ng5 3. N:h7 4. f3 5. Kf2 6. Kg3 7. Kh3 8. N:f8 9. Kg4 #
>
>9. ... Nh2. Unless it's forbidden to answer with a non-symmetric move.
You're right... sorry! Instead,
1. f3 2. Kf2 3. Kg3 4. Kh3 5. e3 6. Bd3 7. Bg6 8. h:g3 9. Kg4 #
Ilias