Opening 1NT (15-17 HCP) with 2 doubletons?
SemiMike
1. Always
2. Never
3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
4. Only with both doubletons stopped
5. Other guidelines
Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
paul
I never open 1NT with 5 of a major and a second 4 card suit, or six of
a major. Otherwise, I take things on a case-by-case basis. The 4321
count is quite good for notrump bidding, and 2245 hands do not appear
to require any major adjustment in valuation. So I'm inclined to open
1NT with both minors, but probably not with two low doubletons.
4-5 hands (major-minor) have a fair amount of playing strength above
the 4321 count; also, the defensive strength is often weaker than a
more balanced hand. High cards in the short suits offset such effects
and so make notrump more attractive; Qx and Jx are generally poor
holdings for suit play and good ones for notrump if partner has nay
help in the suit. Kx and AQ argue for having the lead come up to you
and, again, add less to your playing strength at suit play. At
notrump, high cards are crucial as stoppers; at suit play, trumps take
care of that and high cards are most useful in your long suits where
they combine to set up tricks.
Clubs and spades present virtually no rebid problem if you open 1C;
responder almost always bids a suit and you can rebid or raise spades.
Otherwise, with 17 hcp, you can generally afford a reverse or a raise
to 2NT. A very "sharp" 16 such as Ax AKxx xx AJ10xx is worth a
reverse, but KJ KQxx Qx AJxxx should open 1NT.
A six card minor adds something to notrump play, but a recent thread
where I called for a simulation seemed to imply a value of maybe 1
point (five card suits are worth about half a point.) So, I would use
a range of 14-16 with 2236 or similar shape. Otherwise, same
guidelines as 2245 shape.
You didn't ask but personally I never open 1NT with a singleton. Even
the "worst case" Kxxx KQxx KQxx K may play better at a suit than
notrump, and as my agreements allow a simple 2H rebid over a 2C
response I find few rebid problems. We might miss a game if partner
responds 1NT, but I doubt it will be a laydown.
boblipton
I find that with a 2=4=5=2 or 2=4=2=5 hand with the honors usefully
scattered, that there are a fair number of hands that I find it better
to open 1NT. While with a hand that looks like xx AJTx AKJxx Qx I am
comfortable with opening 1 Diamond and reversing to 2 hearts over a 1
Spade response, with a hand like Kx KJxx Axxxx AJ this hand looks like
it needs the opening lead coming up to it, nor am I happy at the
thought of playing in, say, 3 diamond opposite three low.
If the 4-card major is spades, however, I am much more comfortable
opening in the long minor.
Bob
Nick France
Three requirements. Both doubleton's are stopped, Both doubletons are
not the majors and the hand has a rebid problem. The two main hands
that meet this are 2452 and 2425 where you don't think you are strong
enough to reverse.
Nick France
paul
Why not 2245 (two major suit doubletons) ?
Thomas Dehn
Agree with Nick.
In addition, it makes a different whether the hand
contains lots of quacks. I.e.
xx,Axxx,Ax,AKxxx: open 1C
Qx,KJxx,Kx,KQJxx: open 1NT
Thomas
Will in New Haven
Never with a five-card Major. Usually not with a four-card Major.
Frequently with both Minors.
--
Will in New Haven
Thomas Dehn
Depends on system. For example, if you play garbage
Stayman, opening 1NT on a 2245 might cause your
side to play a 4-2 fit in a major.
Thomas
Stu Goodgold
Depends on how the honors are divided. If they are concentrated or
they are slow, then 1N often fares better. I wouldn't open with 2
unstopped dbltons. And I like to invoke an axiom told me by an
Englishman many years ago: you need 2 good reasons not to bid no
trump.
Mainly, I would open 1NT if there would be a problem with my second
bid if I open a suit and partner made a relatively ordinary response,
eg: with 2-4-2-5 if I open 1C and hear 1S from partner, what am I
going to bid, especially if I have a weak dblton diamond and I am not
good enough to reverse.
-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA
boblipton
For me, I am usually comfortable opening with one diamond and
rebidding clubs. But then I am comfortable with a 2=2=4=5, opening 1
diamond and rebidding 2 clubs.
Bob
Art Hoffman
"Stu Goodgold" <st...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:7d06ff66-15f0-467a...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
==========================================
Bid 2C. There are probably more good things that can happen than bad.
Good: opponents intervene and get punished, partner passes and you can't
make a game anyway, you end with a plus score, etc. Bad: you miss a game,
or you may miss a better part score.
Me, I virtually never open 1NT with a 5422. Then again I also virtually
never open 1NT with a 5 card major.
Art Hoffman
"boblipton" <bobl...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5dc219cf-e114-4bc5...@o14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
=========================
Me too.
Nick France
>
> - Show quoted text -
For me I use 3H and 3S to show 5/5 hands in the majors with follow up
bids. My system would bite me if I used it on 2245 hands although I
do understand why you might have a problem with bidding that
distribution.
Nick France
dak...@aol.com
How much response/rebids are you willing to allocate for finding TWO
weak stops?
Do you care to know stops --or just blast into 3NT?
I invest nothing into checking if partner's 1NT is really intending
3NT game. No stopper checking!
That means seldom gamble weak stop won't cash set on us.
The jist is that what is 1NT opener depends on how the frequent
(at least the frequent) auctions get to successful contracts.
TWOferBRIDGE
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
Last night , Lefty opened 1NT...
My partner DBL! ( DONT = long suit somewhere )...
Righty : 2NT...
passed out.
Lefty........... ..Righty
Q x............ ...x x
K Q x x..........A x
Q x................K 10 8 7 x
A K 9 x x.......Q 10 8 x
My Partner ( North) on lead:
A K 9 8 x x
10 9 8 x
A x
x
Unfortunately, he led the Sp 8 ...
( and discarded a Ht on the Cl run ).
2NT making +2 .
- - Don - -
derek
And this was bad? Surely there were people in 3N making?
TWOferBRIDGE
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
Only a few other Wests opened 1NT , but North
overcalled 2S.
The rest opened 1C with a 1S overcall.
Cl contract by West could make 10 tricks.
Sp contract by North could make 8 tricks.
- - Don - -
ps. Another question is:
If my partner had led Sp from the top,
would I have been alert enough to begin to
unblock at trick 1 with my J 10 x ??
And if not, would I know to switch to
a Diam when in with my Sp Jack ??
I guess the point of this, if there is one,
is sometimes you get lucky opening 1NT
with 2 doubletons. But what are the odds
it works out in the long run ?
derek
Partner would have been very lucky, that's all. You don't lead from
the top with AKxxxx at NT because the guy with Qxx gets a free shot
with the Q. However, if he has a book lead (AKQxxx) you _must_
unblock.
> And if not, would I know to switch to
> a Diam when in with my Sp Jack ??
>
> I guess the point of this, if there is one,
> is sometimes you get lucky opening 1NT
> with 2 doubletons. But what are the odds
> it works out in the long run ?
Poor with shortness in both majors. In a best case scenario, the
bidding goes 1N-3N, and you havent given much away, but your opponent
will frequently lead a major anyway. In the worst case, you go
through some sequence giving your opps a picture of at least one hand,
and they _definitely_ lead your weakest suit.
paul
I see. I use 2D then 2S to show the invitational hand (might be 4-5 or
5-5) and 2H then 3H to show the 5-5 game force.
Will in New Haven
What was WEIRD was the raise to 2NT. How does he know that the long
suit isn't one of his minors or a Major that his partner could double.
Responder should redouble, setting up a forcing pass auction. When you
found your Spade fit and neither of them could double, they should
play their Club fit. Ten tricks with no defensive error.
Will in New Haven
Good with shortness in both Majors because competitive is more
important than constructive and you can't outbid Hearts or Spades with
Clubs.
Ed
fwiw: Almost never with a 5-card major, unless it's weak enough to
consider treating as a 4-card suit, and then the rest of the hand has
to be perfect. And almost never with 4-5-2-2 hands, perhaps with
2=4=2=5 or 2=4=5=2 with mediocre hearts and no other flaws.
HOWEVER: 1N and, especially, 2N openings are slam killers and, with
the currently popular methods, make it very difficult to make choice
of game judgments that aren't simply based on 8-card major suit fits
and pointcount. It may be why weak NT systems are more effective
bidding slams and the right games based on fit in any suit. Yes, weak
NT can get you to some suboptimal partials, but that seems to even out
(at worst) over the long run.
Really, it feels like the urge to bid NT comes from the comfort of
having most auctions be essentially automatic. In that respect, it's
a great pro-am method, but two legitimate experts can do better by
getting their long suits into the auction as early as is feasible and
using their judgment. This is particularly clear at imps where
getting to the best game is more valuable than punting into 3N, since
you're protected by "keeping with the field" in matchpoints events.
Ed
Thomas Dehn
> On Dec 4, 7:44 am, SemiMike<mmoce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
>> 1. Always
>> 2. Never
>> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
>> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
>> 5. Other guidelines
>>
>> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
>
> fwiw: Almost never with a 5-card major, unless it's weak enough to
> consider treating as a 4-card suit, and then the rest of the hand has
> to be perfect. And almost never with 4-5-2-2 hands, perhaps with
> 2=4=2=5 or 2=4=5=2 with mediocre hearts and no other flaws.
>
> HOWEVER: 1N and, especially, 2N openings are slam killers and, with
> the currently popular methods, make it very difficult to make choice
> of game judgments that aren't simply based on 8-card major suit fits
> and pointcount. It may be why weak NT systems are more effective
> bidding slams and the right games based on fit in any suit. Yes, weak
> NT can get you to some suboptimal partials, but that seems to even out
> (at worst) over the long run.
You could play 1NT - 2C - 2D/2H - 2S as a distributional inquiry.
That way, you can combine transfers and two-way Stayman.
I.e.
1NT 2C
2H 2S (GF, relay), and now
2NT = five hearts or 2452 distribution
-> 3C relay
o 3D = 3523
o 3H = 3532
o 3S = 2533
o 3NT = 2452
3C = four clubs
-> 3D relay
o 3H = 3424
o 3S = 2434
o 3NT = 2425
3D = four diamonds
-> 3H relay
o 3S = 2443
o 3NT = 3442
3H = 4432
3S = 4423
3NT = 3433
Thomas
Nick France
>
> - Show quoted text -
I also use 2C over 1NT on all hands with 4-4 in the majors and that
too would have a problem with opening 1NT with 2245. In any case, one
has to know how a bid effects the rest of your system.
Nick France
rhm
This seems to be the old argument from Culbertson, who refrained from
opening with notrump on almost any excuse. The modern trend seems to
go the other way.
I agree about 2N, but 2N plugs a hole in most so called natural
systems.
With regard to modern 1N openings I am not sure whether this argument
holds water.
It is also well known that natural systems often have problems
reaching 6NT if both hands have around 16-17 HCP when the opening is
not 1NT. Also exchanging information in additional rounds of bidding
is not free of charge.
It would be useful to have statistics about imps won or lost from
strong team matches, where both sides used the same , say a 15-17
notrump range, but where only one table opened with 1N and the other
not.
This statistic could be subdivided into categories with imps won or
lost, where
- The same contract was reached eventually
- Only one table reached game
- Different game contracts were reached
- Only one table got to a slam or a grand slam.
A Bridge Browser study in 2008 showed that opening 1N with 5332 and a
5 card major was a clear winner:
http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/15252-5332-five-card-major-1nt-or-1m/
Rainer Herrmann
.
derek
I understand your point, but you have to admit your bidding is not
quite standard (at least in the lower ranks of the ACBL) :-) I have a
friend who would probably feel the same way as you do, but if you're
going to bid this way you need to be sure you're _not_ going to end up
in 3N without the majors stopped - because you know most times you'll
get a major suit lead. Certainly - as you pointed out - 2N is
suicidal in this auction (though I'm still surprised that nobody got
to 3N for a lucky make).
Will in New Haven
> On Dec 5, 12:31 pm, Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 5, 8:48 am, derek <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> > > > I guess the point of this, if there is one,
> > > > is sometimes you get lucky opening 1NT
> > > > with 2 doubletons. But what are the odds
> > > > it works out in the long run ?
>
> > > Poor with shortness in both majors. In a best case scenario, the
> > > bidding goes 1N-3N, and you havent given much away, but your opponent
> > > will frequently lead a major anyway. In the worst case, you go
> > > through some sequence giving your opps a picture of at least one hand,
> > > and they _definitely_ lead your weakest suit.
>
> > Good with shortness in both Majors because competitive is more
> > important than constructive and you can't outbid Hearts or Spades with
> > Clubs.
>
> I understand your point, but you have to admit your bidding is not
> quite standard (at least in the lower ranks of the ACBL) :-) I have a
> friend who would probably feel the same way as you do, but if you're
> going to bid this way you need to be sure you're _not_ going to end up
> in 3N without the majors stopped - because you know most times you'll
> get a major suit lead.
xxx oppsite xx isn't a stopper but they don't always lead the suit and
certainly not from a holding like AQX, whatever you think about "they
are going to lead a Major, and sometimes the suit splits 4-4.
Certainly - as you pointed out - 2N is
> suicidal in this auction (though I'm still surprised that nobody got
> to 3N for a lucky make).
2NT is both risky and _insufficiently greedy_ Give the 1NT opener 4-4
in the Majors and sometimes 4-3 and they will not have a place to play
the hand. People don't head-hunt as much as they used to and it isn't
because the opponents are bidding more cautiously. In this case, the
doubler will show his or her Spades and neither opener nor responder
can double that contract, so they compete in Clubs.
Given how often people, even experts, show "one-suited hand" with a
five-bagger, taking the penalty club out of your bag is giving up
great chances for good results.
Adam Beneschan
> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
> 1. Always
> 2. Never
> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
> 5. Other guidelines
>
> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
I like to have both doubletons stopped, but one other factor is that I
want at least one of my doubletons to be something that I think
should, possibly, be led up to me. If both my doubletons are
something like Ax or KQ, it's a lot less likely that there will be an
advantage to playing notrump from my side (still, I might open 1NT if
I anticipate rebid problems). I'd want at least one doubleton to be
AT, AJ, AQ, KJ, Kx (x lower than J). [With AT, for instance, if
partner has Jxx in that suit you'd prefer the suit to be led by your
LHO if they're going to lead it.]
-- Adam
Thomas Dehn
The main problem is elsewhere. If you don't open
those hands with 1NT even though they are in the range,
this messes up opener's rebid structure because that suddenly
has to take into account those hands.
Classic weak NT example:
1C - 1H
2H
In a normal weak NT setup, this auction guarantees extras.
Opener will have either 15+ HCP, or some distribution.
However, if some balanced 12-14 hands are opened 1C,
then the 2H raise might now contain some balanced hands with 12 HCP.
Another classic weak NT example:
1H 2D
2NT
In a normal weak NT setup, opener now has 15+, and 2NT is forcing
except in Stonehenge Acol.
However, if some balanced 12-14 hands are opened 1H,
you now need the 2NT rebid for those hands, and you'll
have to find another rebid for the 15+ hands.
Thomas
Andrew
> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
> 1. Always
> 2. Never
> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
> 5. Other guidelines
>
> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
It is not a simple question to answer. You should consider:
1. How suit-oriented the hand is.
The more suit-oriented, the less you should want to open 1NT.
* Primary honors + cards in long suits = suit-oriented
* weak doubletons = suit-oriented
2. Whether there is a rebid problem if you open 1-of-a-suit.
The more severe the rebid problem, the more you should favor opening
1NT
* second suit = spades means no rebid problem.
* 15 poor HCP plus a dub spade = reasonably comfortable 1NT rebid
(12-14).
* 5-bagger is higher ranking then 4-bagger = less severe rebid
problem.
So there are two cases where you should open 1NT with 5-4-2-2:
!. When it is the best description of the hand because the hand is NT-
oriented. For example: Kx, QJxx, AQ, KTxxx
2. When a 1-of-a-suit opening would present serious rebid problems.
xx, AKJx, KQ, Kxxxx
Andrew
Michael Angelo Ravera
> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
> 1. Always
> 2. Never
> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
> 5. Other guidelines
>
> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
In my experience, Strong 1NT openers are more interested in showing
the strength of their hands and in requiring stops than weak 1NT
openers. Weak 1NT openers tend to be more concerned with shape and
rebid problems (and less with narrowing the strength of their hands
and with stops).
There are plenty of expert bridge players who would give each of your
5 answers.
My personal approach to the problem is that I would like one of the
doubletons to be a stopped major. I generally only open strong 1NT
with a 5-card major when it is so strong that I kind of want partner
to have 4 cards in it to play it as trump or so bad that I'd want
partner to have 4 cards in it to play it as trump -- Basically, either
none of the top three honors or all of the top three honors. However,
a 5-card mnor or even a bad 6-card minor won't stop me from opening a
strong 1NT. I tell people "6-3-2-2 is balanced. Get over it!"
One local expert said "You can feel free to open a strong 1NT with a 5-
card major or two doubletons, but not both"
Another proposed that you might have rebid problems with exactly 16
HCP and 5 hearts that are eliminated by opening 1NT, particularly when
you have only 2 spades.
There are others who open 1NT with every 15-17 HCP hand with no
singletons or voids and no 7-card suit, doubletons, stops, and 5-card
majors be damned.
When I play my strong 1NT system, because I have a gadget bid that
precludes 4-4 or better in the majors, I systemically don't have 5-4
in the majors, but, even if I didn't, I'd likely open my 5-card major
with 5-4 in the majors.
Travis Crump
> On Dec 4, 4:44 am, SemiMike <mmoce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
>> 1. Always
>> 2. Never
>> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
>> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
>> 5. Other guidelines
>>
>> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
>
> It is not a simple question to answer. You should consider:
>
> 1. How suit-oriented the hand is.
> The more suit-oriented, the less you should want to open 1NT.
> * Primary honors + cards in long suits = suit-oriented
> * weak doubletons = suit-oriented
>
> 2. Whether there is a rebid problem if you open 1-of-a-suit.
> The more severe the rebid problem, the more you should favor opening
> 1NT
> * second suit = spades means no rebid problem.
You can't dismiss entirely the possibility that partner will reply 1N.
> * 15 poor HCP plus a dub spade = reasonably comfortable 1NT rebid
> (12-14).
> * 5-bagger is higher ranking then 4-bagger = less severe rebid
> problem.
>
There is another class of hands that I'm not sure has been mentioned
AQ KQx Ax Jxxxxx. 6322, too strong for 2m, but too bad of a suit for 3m.
Andrew
> On 12/06/2010 12:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 4, 4:44 am, SemiMike <mmoce...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The views on this seem to be varied, including:
> >> 1. Always
> >> 2. Never
> >> 3. Only with at least one doubleton stopped
> >> 4. Only with both doubletons stopped
> >> 5. Other guidelines
>
> >> Would welcome any opinions on this issue. Thanks.
>
> > It is not a simple question to answer. You should consider:
>
> > 1. How suit-oriented the hand is.
> > The more suit-oriented, the less you should want to open 1NT.
> > * Primary honors + cards in long suits = suit-oriented
> > * weak doubletons = suit-oriented
>
> > 2. Whether there is a rebid problem if you open 1-of-a-suit.
> > The more severe the rebid problem, the more you should favor opening
> > 1NT
> > * second suit = spades means no rebid problem.
>
> You can't dismiss entirely the possibility that partner will reply 1N.
True. Whether or not 1NT creates a rebid problem will depend on the
range shown. If 1NT is limited to 8-10 it normally won't.
> > * 15 poor HCP plus a dub spade = reasonably comfortable 1NT rebid
> > (12-14).
> > * 5-bagger is higher ranking then 4-bagger = less severe rebid
> > problem.
>
> There is another class of hands that I'm not sure has been mentioned
> AQ KQx Ax Jxxxxx. 6322, too strong for 2m, but too bad of a suit for 3m.
The same general observations apply to this class of hands. When they
are NT-oriented or there will be a rebid problem open 1NT. Otherwise,
open 1m. Your example would open 1NT because the hand is NT-oriented
and the prospect of a 2C rebid on Jxxxxx is pretty sickening. In
contrast this hand: xx, Jx, AKx, AKJTxx is a jump rebid to 3C. Most
hands will be in between these extremes and will require judgment to
pick between a 2m/3m rebid and an initial 1NT opening.
Andrew
tussock
> In addition, it makes a different whether the hand contains lots of
> quacks. I.e.
>
> xx,Axxx,Ax,AKxxx: open 1C
> Qx,KJxx,Kx,KQJxx: open 1NT
34 vs 28 Zars. Limited controls like that should help partner over 1N
too, no more than 5 means partner needs 6+ for slam.
--
tussock