Bocchi
David Babcock
Vanderbilt match-ups, and the Barry Crane 500 listings in the current
Bulletin (ACBL) said the same thing. Can it be inferred from this
that Bocchi will not be on future Italian international teams?
David
Henk Uijterwaal
This has been his residence for at least a year. Not living in Italy
doesn't exclude him from playing on the Italian team.
The IMP bridge magazine site (which is quite reliable in these kinds of
things) however says that the Lavazza team (Bocchi-Duboin, Sementa-
Madala) will reshuffle itself to Duboin-Sementa, Bocchi-Madala in the
course of 2008 after Bocchi-Duboin's current commitments are over.
Madala, being from Argentina, of course, isn't eligible for the Italian
team (yet).
Henk
--
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Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
Alan Greenspan on the next elections
Onno Eskes
Well, Bocchi-Duboin have broken up. Duboin is going to play with
Sementa, Bocchi with Madala. If Bocchi-Madala want to play for Italy,
first Madala has to get an Italian passport.
Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
How should he solve this?
Onno
Bob Lipton
By not trying to use some one else's ID?
Bob
David Babcock
> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
> How should he solve this?
Stupidity at trick 1 isn't always solvable later in the play. ;-\
David
Art Hoffman
"Onno Eskes" <esk...@levendaal.nl> wrote in message
news:7acat3ht0tcnav7al...@4ax.com...
<snip>
Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
> and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
> How should he solve this?
>
> Onno
It's unfortunate he chose to use a fake ID and got snagged with
repercussions. But that's what risky behavior can get you.
As for solving his "inconvenience" he might try submitting a complaint under
the Dept of Homeland Security Travel Redress Inquiry Program (DHS TRIP) that
can be found at http://www.dhs.gov/xtrvlsec/programs/gc_1169673653081.shtm.
Incidentally, I wonder if Brad Moss suffered any consequences as well.
raija d
If the story you told is in fact true, then I don't know what you meanby
"solve this"? He should try to avoid bad judgment (euphemism for
stupidity) in the future to not get inconvenienced (euphemism for denied
entry or other legal proceedings) in more countries.
Henk Uijterwaal
> "Onno Eskes" <esk...@levendaal.nl> wrote in message
>> Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>> and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>> How should he solve this?
> If the story you told is in fact true, then I don't know what you meanby
> "solve this"?
I guess it means: getting back the possibility to enter the USA.
And to address the issue: He probably tried to enter the USA on the
visa-waiver program. This has a series of questions, if one has to answer
one or more with yes, one has to see the local US embassy before travelling.
Andrew
> "Onno Eskes" <esk...@levendaal.nl> wrote in message
>
> news:7acat3ht0tcnav7al...@4ax.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>
> > and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
> > tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
> > passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
> > by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
> > week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
> > was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
> > How should he solve this?
>
> > Onno
>
> It's unfortunate he chose to use a fake ID and got snagged with
> repercussions. But that's what risky behavior can get you.
>
> As for solving his "inconvenience" he might try submitting a complaint under
> the Dept of Homeland Security Travel Redress Inquiry Program (DHS TRIP) that
>
> Incidentally, I wonder if Brad Moss suffered any consequences as well.
If filing an appeal does not work (and I would not hold my breath),
I'd suggest getting in touch with an immigration lawyer in the US. My
guess is that's what it will take to sort out this mess.
Andrew
raija d
"Henk Uijterwaal" <he...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:47D577C3...@xs4all.nl...
> raija d wrote:
>> "Onno Eskes" <esk...@levendaal.nl> wrote in message
>
>>> Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>>> and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>>> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>>> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>>> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>>> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>>> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>>> How should he solve this?
>
>> If the story you told is in fact true, then I don't know what you meanby
>> "solve this"?
>
> I guess it means: getting back the possibility to enter the USA.
Without knowing by experience or by anything else, I am willing to bet that
Madala was given his options for future at the time entry was denied.
David Stevenson
Not break the law in the first place?
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 ICQ: 20039682
<webj...@googlemail.com> bluejak on OKB
Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
David Stevenson
>
>
><snip>
>
>
>Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>> and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>> How should he solve this?
>>
>> Onno
>
>It's unfortunate he chose to use a fake ID and got snagged with
>repercussions. But that's what risky behavior can get you.
Unfortunate?
Not the word I would use for breaking the Law.
Art Hoffman
"David Stevenson" <bri...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fpfMVVUm...@post.demon.co.uk...
> Art Hoffman wrote
>>
>>"Onno Eskes" <esk...@levendaal.nl> wrote in message news:7acat3ht0tcnav
>>7aloitunci...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>
>>Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>>> and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>>> tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>>> passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>>> by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>>> week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>>> was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>>> How should he solve this?
>>>
>>> Onno
>>
>>It's unfortunate he chose to use a fake ID and got snagged with
>>repercussions. But that's what risky behavior can get you.
>
> Unfortunate?
>
> Not the word I would use for breaking the Law.
"Unfortunate" decision on his part to break the law. Perhaps his age (under
21) had something to do with it. "Unfortunate" for him that he got caught.
"Fortunate" for anyone reading this post who might have been tempted to do
the same thing as Madala.
From Webster's dictionary:
Main Entry:
1 un搭or暗u搖ate
Function:
adjective
Date:
15th century
1 a: not favored by fortune : unsuccessful, unlucky <an unfortunate young
man>
b: marked or accompanied by or resulting in misfortune <an unfortunate
decision>
2 a: infelicitous, unsuitable <an unfortunate choice of words>
b: deplorable, regrettable <an unfortunate lack of taste>
What word would you have used?
David Stevenson
>Function:
> adjective
>Date:
> 15th century
>
>1 a: not favored by fortune : unsuccessful, unlucky <an unfortunate
>young man>
>b: marked or accompanied by or resulting in misfortune <an unfortunate
>decision>
>2 a: infelicitous, unsuitable <an unfortunate choice of words>
>b: deplorable, regrettable <an unfortunate lack of taste>
>
>
>What word would you have used?
Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
maybe.
David Babcock
> If filing an appeal does not work (and I would not hold my breath),
> I'd suggest getting in touch with an immigration lawyer in the US. My
> guess is that's what it will take to sort out this mess.
This has nothing to do with immigration.
David
Andrew
But it has everything to do with the INS, the department that oversees
visas to visit the US. If an INS decision needs to be challenged in
court, an immigration lawyer would be the right professional to do it.
Andrew
Chris Pisarra
>> What word would you have used?
>
> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
> maybe.
Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
I agree it was stupid--he doesn't look that much like Brad, anyway.
But it's hardly surprising behavior for a 20 year old, and something most of
us have done, one way or another.
Chris
--
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical,
liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
turd by the clean end.
--S.R.
Bob Lipton
> David Stevenson wrote:
>>> What word would you have used?
>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>> maybe.
>
> Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
> you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
>
> I agree it was stupid--he doesn't look that much like Brad, anyway.
> But it's hardly surprising behavior for a 20 year old, and something most of
> us have done, one way or another.
I have never tried to enter another company with some one else's passport.
Bob
Bob Lipton
Or country.
Bob
David Stevenson
>David Stevenson wrote:
>>> What word would you have used?
>>
>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>> maybe.
>
> Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
>you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
I think people are more honest that you give them credit for.
But it is not the fake ID that is really stupid: it is the fact that
it is a passport. Any suggestion that I would go into a bar underage
using someone else's passport, a document providing the right to be in a
country, *that* is insulting: I am not a moron.
> I agree it was stupid--he doesn't look that much like Brad, anyway.
>But it's hardly surprising behavior for a 20 year old, and something most of
>us have done, one way or another.
Not with a passport.
Rob Morris
> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
> maybe.
>
Interesting. Someone attempting to get into a casino at the age of
twenty doesn't register on my moral sense at all.
I'm not saying it wasn't daft; merely that I'm not disgusted by
disregard for laws meant to protect oneself rather than others (in this
case, laws covering the behaviour of an adult in a country that has
rather puritanical laws on gambling).
Anyway, I'm not really sure what the point is of the several posts
suggesting that someone's best action would be to not do something that
has already been done. There seems to me to be a definite arrow of time
in the universe, making such a course of action difficult if not impossible.
Could someone let me know if I'm not up-to-date on our current
understanding of the laws of physics?
Art Hoffman
>>Function:
>> adjective
>>Date:
>> 15th century
>>
>>1 a: not favored by fortune : unsuccessful, unlucky <an unfortunate young
>>man>
>>b: marked or accompanied by or resulting in misfortune <an unfortunate
>>decision>
>>2 a: infelicitous, unsuitable <an unfortunate choice of words>
>>b: deplorable, regrettable <an unfortunate lack of taste>
>>
>>
>>What word would you have used?
>
> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
> maybe.
"... perhaps. ... maybe." You'll have to do better than that if you're
criticizing someone else's words. Maybe you should stick to bridge
directing and leave word-smithing to others. OTOH, I suppose everyone's
entitled to their own opinion.
David Stevenson
>David Stevenson wrote:
>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>>maybe.
>>
>
>Interesting. Someone attempting to get into a casino at the age of
>twenty doesn't register on my moral sense at all.
Nor mine, naturally.
It is the use of a passport, someone else's, that is moronic,
disgusting, and deserves to get him barred from the country.
--------------------------------------------------------
Art Hoffman wrote
>>>What word would you have used?
>>
>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>>maybe.
>
>"... perhaps. ... maybe." You'll have to do better than that if
>you're criticizing someone else's words. Maybe you should stick to
>bridge directing and leave word-smithing to others. OTOH, I suppose
>everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
Of course. If you think it is not moronic to use someone else's
passport when in a foreign country, thus quite possibly being barred for
life from that country, you are entitled to your opinion. I think
moronic is quite weak, actually.
Art Hoffman
"Art Hoffman" <art...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:oNOdnTWrt9KBEUva...@comcast.com...
>>>Function:
>>> adjective
>>>Date:
>>> 15th century
>>>
>>>1 a: not favored by fortune : unsuccessful, unlucky <an unfortunate young
>>>man>
>>>b: marked or accompanied by or resulting in misfortune <an unfortunate
>>>decision>
>>>2 a: infelicitous, unsuitable <an unfortunate choice of words>
>>>b: deplorable, regrettable <an unfortunate lack of taste>
>>>
>>>
>>>What word would you have used?
>>
>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>> maybe.
>
> "... perhaps. ... maybe." You'll have to do better than that if you're
> criticizing someone else's words. Maybe you should stick to bridge
> directing and leave word-smithing to others. OTOH, I suppose everyone's
> entitled to their own opinion.
Since we're talking about breaking a law, I did a quick check of Missouri's
Gambling Law. The relevant section seems to be
Gambling.
572.020.
1. A person commits the crime of gambling if he knowingly engages in
gambling.
2. Gambling is a class C misdemeanor unless:
(1) It is committed by a professional player, in which case it is a
class D felony; or
(2) The person knowingly engages in gambling with a minor, in which case
it is a class B misdemeanor.
My reading of this is that the *casino*, not Madala, would have broken the
law if he was allowed to gamble there. So, they checked his ID (proofed
him) and excluded him from the casino. Madala's name then must have gotten
on some Missouri Casino Commission watch list that became an input to
Homeland Security's list, and the subsequent exclusion to the US.
Of course, Madala's use of someone else's ID might also be a violation of
some law.
In any event, the whole thing is an "unfortunate" affair for Madala, IMO.
David Babcock
> But it has everything to do with the INS, the department that oversees
> visas to visit the US.
Visas to visit the US are issued by the Department of State.
David
Onno Eskes
wrote:
>Anyway, I'm not really sure what the point is of the several posts
>suggesting that someone's best action would be to not do something that
>has already been done. There seems to me to be a definite arrow of time
>in the universe, making such a course of action difficult if not impossible.
>
>Could someone let me know if I'm not up-to-date on our current
>understanding of the laws of physics?
LOL, brilliant, and spot on.
Will in New Haven
wrote:
> Chris Pisarra wrote
>
> >David Stevenson wrote:
> >>> What word would you have used?
>
> >> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
> >> maybe.
>
> > Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
> >you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
>
> I think people are more honest that you give them credit for.
>
> But it is not the fake ID that is really stupid: it is the fact that
> it is a passport. Any suggestion that I would go into a bar underage
> using someone else's passport, a document providing the right to be in a
> country, *that* is insulting: I am not a moron.
Just walk on in, hope not to get carded: Laugh it off. A very minor
offense and quite understandable.
Use a fake ID: Not a minor offense. It is fraud. This kind of folly is
not something you laugh off, even in a young person.
Use someone _else's_ ID: Worse than a fake ID.
>
> > I agree it was stupid--he doesn't look that much like Brad, anyway.
> >But it's hardly surprising behavior for a 20 year old, and something most of
> >us have done, one way or another.
>
> Not with a passport.
A passport is the worst but anything beyond "walk in and hope not to
get carded' is not "something all of us have done at one time or
another."
Will in New Haven
--
>
> --
> David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
> Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 ICQ: 20039682
> <webjak...@googlemail.com> bluejak on OKB
> Bridgepage:http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
David Stevenson
>Of course, Madala's use of someone else's ID might also be a violation
>of some law.
>
>In any event, the whole thing is an "unfortunate" affair for Madala, IMO.
Solely because you are concentrating on the minor misdemeanour of
gambling. Use of someone else's passport in a foreign country is the
moronic bit.
David Stevenson
>On Mar 11, 9:19 am, David Stevenson <brid...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>> Chris Pisarra wrote
>>
>> >David Stevenson wrote:
>> >>> What word would you have used?
>>
>> >> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>> >> maybe.
>>
>> > Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
>> >you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
>>
>> I think people are more honest that you give them credit for.
>>
>> But it is not the fake ID that is really stupid: it is the fact that
>> it is a passport. Any suggestion that I would go into a bar underage
>> using someone else's passport, a document providing the right to be in a
>> country, *that* is insulting: I am not a moron.
>
>Just walk on in, hope not to get carded: Laugh it off. A very minor
>offense and quite understandable.
>
>Use a fake ID: Not a minor offense. It is fraud. This kind of folly is
>not something you laugh off, even in a young person.
>
>Use someone _else's_ ID: Worse than a fake ID.
All agreed, and a passport in a foreign country? Worse still.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 ICQ: 20039682
<webj...@googlemail.com> bluejak on OKB
Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
dranon
wrote:
So now a "casino" is a country? Must be that font thing again.
dranon
<bri...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Chris Pisarra wrote
>>David Stevenson wrote:
>>>> What word would you have used?
>>>
>>> Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
>>> maybe.
>>
>> Disgusting? Did you never attempt to get into a bar or casino before
>>you were of age? If not, you were the only one I ever heard of.
>
> I think people are more honest that you give them credit for.
>
> But it is not the fake ID that is really stupid: it is the fact that
>it is a passport. Any suggestion that I would go into a bar underage
>using someone else's passport, a document providing the right to be in a
>country, *that* is insulting: I am not a moron.
>
>> I agree it was stupid--he doesn't look that much like Brad, anyway.
>>But it's hardly surprising behavior for a 20 year old, and something most of
>>us have done, one way or another.
>
> Not with a passport.
I think you have a different perspective on passports than many here.
Passports are routinely used as substitutes for drivers licenses.
Especially by young people who do not drive. I don't think there is
any greater significance on the ID being fake that it is a passport.
I agree with Chris here. It was a stupid young person's mistake, but
it does not warrant the denigration that this thread is providing.
Gerben Dirksen
To me, gambling is only a crime because the government has decided it
is. And the things 18 - 20 year olds are not allowed to do in the USA
is ridiculous. That being said, Madala was really stupid not
respecting the laws of the country he was visiting, however silly they
might be.
Gerben, who hasn't ever tried to get into a bar / casino / anything
while under age. They are usually smoky places which I try to stay
away from. Now with the smoking ban in restaurants and cafes, I tend
to like these places much more.
Gerben
BBO expert
> Onno Eskes wrote
>>Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>>and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>>tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>>passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>>by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>>week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>>was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>>How should he solve this?
>
> Not break the law in the first place?
No kidding. There are any number of professions where not being able to get
into the US is a hindrance, and there are any number of countries where you
won't get it in if they find your name in their records on entry. It's one
thing to be denied entry to a country on political grounds (or even, as can
happen just because the immigration officer doesn't like your face), but to
be denied entry because you did something illegal _in that country_ is just
your tough luck.
BBO expert
> 2. Gambling is a class C misdemeanor unless:
>
> (1) It is committed by a professional player, in which case it is a
> class D felony; or
>
> (2) The person knowingly engages in gambling with a minor, in which
> case
> it is a class B misdemeanor.
>
> My reading of this is that the *casino*, not Madala, would have broken the
> law if he was allowed to gamble there.
No. The casino would have been involved in a B-misdemeanor, but the gambler
would be involved in a C-misdemeanor.
> Of course, Madala's use of someone else's ID might also be a violation of
> some law.
Generally speaking... There aren't many places I can think of that it isn't
an offence. It also depends what sort of ID he was using - sometimes
misuse of a passport is considerably worse than misuse of a driver's
license.
raija d
"David Babcock" <dp...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:5dbf04f2-c1f8-4b30...@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Not at the border or the airport. Unless INS is under Department of State,
sorry for my ignorance about that and I am not going to look it up now....
INS is the one that enforces, investigates, examines passports and documents
etc. at the border or point of entry such as international airport.
raija d
"dranon" <dra...@dranon.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:9qfdt3p17apq2ofgl...@4ax.com...
What does it warrant then?
Anton van Uitert
"BBO expert" <n...@test.com> schreef in bericht
news:2873093.h...@cedar.serverforest.com...
He was caught being naughty. Breaking the law? Speeding is against the
law, so is crossing an empty street when the light is red, smoking pot,
revoking and sex before the age of 16. What he did was certainly
incorrect but he did not do anything that could cause damage so denying
him access is a bit overdone.
Anton
raija d
Laws of physics and using somebody else's passport when in a foreign
country, have nothing in common.
John Hall
Onno Eskes <esk...@levendaal.nl> writes:
>Speaking of Madala and passports, Madala was denied access to the USA
>and put on a return flight to Argentina, last week in Detroit. He had
>tried to enter a casino in St. Louis last year with Brad Moss'
>passport (because Madala wasn't 21 yet), got caught and was questioned
>by the police there for a long time. When he arrived in Detroit last
>week, he was checked and this casino thing was in his records and he
>was denied access to the country. Quite inconvenient for a bridge pro.
>How should he solve this?
In discussing the rights and wrongs of this, no-one seems to have
mentioned Brad Moss's role. Did Madala take Moss's passport without
Moss's consent? If so, then that seems to me to be at least as serious a
misdemeanour as the use that he put the passport to. Or did Moss let him
borrow it? If so, then Moss would appear to be at least partly to blame,
the degree depending on what Madela gave as his reason for wanting to
borrow it.
--
John Hall
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts;
but if he will be content to begin with doubts,
he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
BBO expert
> He was caught being naughty. Breaking the law? Speeding is against the
> law, so is crossing an empty street when the light is red, smoking pot,
> revoking and sex before the age of 16. What he did was certainly
> incorrect but he did not do anything that could cause damage so denying
> him access is a bit overdone.
You think using somebody else's ID is just "naughty"? Not in most places.
As for "a bit overdone", the US INS can bar you for practically any
reason - this is a better reason than many.
Bob Lipton
'The US government disagrees. So do I.
Bob
Andrew
If you can not get a visa, either temporary or permanent, call an
immigration attorney. Here is an example of such a firm:
http://www.nvo.com/beaulier/immigrationcenter/
Andrew
dranon
wrote:
Truthfully, a "kids will be kids" sigh and a recognition that this one
falls into the category of "no harm, no foul" and be done with it.
Amazing how we all have our own little "buttons" that can be pushed.
I was seriously tweaked by the actions of the women in China and
believed (and still do) that it would be totally within the rights of
the sponsors to eviscerate the protagonists (euphemistically, of
course). But in this case, maybe because I've seen so many of a
similar age do remarkably similar things with nary a consequence, I am
unmoved by calls for banishment.
Something tells me there must be more to the story, though. The
casinos must face gazillions of people attempting to skirt the age 21
rule. I will go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of cases
are handled as I indicated above. Maybe he was belligerent and the
issue escalated to the point where even I would have put him on the
next deportation train. But we will never know. And in the absence
of compelling proof that he acted in a bad way, the punishment is just
way too severe. And the reaction here is way too, well, ....
reactionary. [How's that for the pot calling the kettle black?]
raija d
I would like to say that this was not about trying to skirt the age 21 rule.
It was about using another person's passport while in a foregin country.
Quite different and quite different level of seriousness.
I surely understand "kids will be kids", having raised a couple myself (and
been one if I still remember...)
dranon
wrote:
Sure it was. Nobody thinks that he would have been using the "proof
of age" (whether passport or drivers license or any other form of
proof acceptable to the casino) had he not been trying to skirt the
age 21 rule.
>It was about using another person's passport while in a foregin country.
>Quite different and quite different level of seriousness.
I don't disagree that there are probably different laws that are
broken ONCE one uses a passport rather than a drivers license, but
I've already stated that use of a passport is somewhat routine in the
US and, most of the time, the "authorities" will not be taken aback by
using one or the other.
Now, the fact that the use was fraudulent, in a time when our
government has gone head over heels reactionary to young men from
other countries doing anything which is contrary to our laws is quite
unfortunate for this young man.
Let's put it this way, if a 19 year old (US citizen) used his
brother's passport in an attempt to do what this young man did, they
would have laughed it off.
As Joe Pesci famously said: "Ahhh, yut."
Art Hoffman
"John Hall" <nospam...@jhall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mAGQHFEp...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid...
In addition to these questions, I would first comment that Madala using
Moss's passport as an ID doesn't seem to make sense. Moss, a US Citizen in
the US, has his passport with him at a bridge tournament in the US? Most
people here don't carry their passports with them. And if a friend asked
him for an ID, why wouldn't he give them his driver's license?
Perhaps, the OP was mistaken when he said "passport." The OP was European
and I understand most Europeans carry their passports with them. Could we
get a confirmation on this?
David Babcock
> Unless INS is under Department of State
INS was renamed Citizenship and Immigration Services and placed under
the Department of Homeland Security in 2002. INS/CIS did not, and
does not, issue visitor visas. The State Department does:
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html
If Madala was a national of Argentina, then he must have arrived here
with a visa, as Argentinian nationals are not eligible for the Visa
Waiver Program:
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#countries
The important point here for Mr. Madala is not who was doing the
police work at the airport, but whom he will be dealing with the
*next* time he applies for a visa when he has not only that police
matter, but having been denied entry once before, in his file. And
that "whom" will be the State Department.
Italian nationals *are* eligible for the Visa Waiver Program. How the
current difficulty would affect Mr. Madala's chances in the VWP if he
should acquire an Italian passport, I have no idea. Nor do I have any
idea whether the current situation might jeopardize Mr. Madala's
chances at an Italian passport. All I know -- from my wife's journey
from being a Russian citizen to being a US citizen -- is that
*anything* out of the ordinary on *any* piece of paperwork with these
agencies definitely does not expedite the process.
David
David Babcock
> If you can not get a visa, either temporary or permanent, call an
> immigration attorney
who will fill out the same forms any English-literate person can get
on-line.
David
Tim
> And if a friend asked
> him for an ID, why wouldn't he give them his driver's license?
Then what would Brad use?
David Stevenson
>On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:19:59 +0000, David Stevenson
>> Not with a passport.
>
>I think you have a different perspective on passports than many here.
>Passports are routinely used as substitutes for drivers licenses.
>Especially by young people who do not drive. I don't think there is
>any greater significance on the ID being fake that it is a passport.
>
>I agree with Chris here. It was a stupid young person's mistake, but
>it does not warrant the denigration that this thread is providing.
I think you have missed the point. If Americans want to use their
friends' passports as fake IDs, well, they are just Americans.
But when a foreign national starts fiddling about with passports, he
is a fool. Do Americans really believe that using a fake passport in
France will help their future in the EU?
====================================================================
raija d wrote
>I would like to say that this was not about trying to skirt the age 21 rule.
>It was about using another person's passport while in a foregin country.
>Quite different and quite different level of seriousness.
Exactly.
>I surely understand "kids will be kids", having raised a couple myself (and
>been one if I still remember...)
I can imagine what my parents would have done to me if I tried to
fiddle around with fake passports when abroad.
====================================================================
dranon wrote
>Let's put it this way, if a 19 year old (US citizen) used his
>brother's passport in an attempt to do what this young man did, they
>would have laughed it off.
I think you completely miss the point of the foreign national. Sure,
the USA may tolerate its young acting foolishly, but how far do you
think they tolerate another country's nationals fiddling around with
their proof of who they are?
David Stevenson
>He was caught being naughty. Breaking the law? Speeding is against the
>law, so is crossing an empty street when the light is red, smoking pot,
>revoking and sex before the age of 16. What he did was certainly
>incorrect but he did not do anything that could cause damage so denying
>him access is a bit overdone.
He showed complete contempt for the USA's laws, specifically the law
on access which depends on passports. What on earth does he expect the
USA to do?
dranon
For somebody of that age, in the company of a US citizen, I would have
thought that the whole thing would be handled with less fervor. Truly
sad that it wasn't.
pumpk...@hotmail.com
> David Stevenson wrote:
> > Depends which part I want to stress. Moronic, perhaps. Disgusting,
> > maybe.
>
> twenty doesn't register on my moral sense at all.
>
> I'm not saying it wasn't daft; merely that I'm not disgusted by
> disregard for laws meant to protect oneself rather than others (in this
> case, laws covering the behaviour of an adult in a country that has
> rather puritanical laws on gambling).
>
> Anyway, I'm not really sure what the point is of the several posts
> suggesting that someone's best action would be to not do something that
> has already been done. There seems to me to be a definite arrow of time
> in the universe, making such a course of action difficult if not impossible.
>
> Could someone let me know if I'm not up-to-date on our current
> understanding of the laws of physics?
Unfortunate that Madala didn't curb his gambling jones until the
Detroit NABC. The Harrah's-owned Casino Windsor, located in Windor,
Ontario, is a stone's throw across the border from Detroit. The legal
gambling age in Ontario is 19, so Agustin could have cheerfully - and
legally- gambled to his heart's content.
Cheers.
Nick
Andrew
I think you must have called the wrong lawyer.
Andrew
Gerben Dirksen
In Germany most carry some other personal ID (not drivers licence that
is not "official" enough for that). I always take my passport as I
need one anyway for non-EU travel and I don't want to give the
authorities even more money by buying the alternative as well.
Gerben
Justin Lall
in this, and I think that part could very well be fictional. I mean
tbh I can't see how Madala would think he could get by with Moss's
passport, they do not look alike.
Also, while it is common in USA to carry their drivers liscense as ID
many people from Manhattan carry their passport (because no one drives
there).
--
Justin Lall
Bob Lipton
I recently got a 'Non-Driver's Driver License.' It satisfies our novel
requirement for internal apssports.
Bob
David Babcock
> I think you must have called the wrong lawyer.
We followed the advice we had received from people who had actually
navigated the process from visa through citizenship: lawyers don't
impress anyone at State or CIS; the paperwork can be managed by anyone
of average-or-so English literacy; and lawyers are not allowed at
interviews anyway (as I recall). We never contacted a lawyer, and we
have no reason to regret that.
I believe a private bill is an option in theory, if one could get a
member of Congress to do it.
David
OldPalooka
Whether or not they impress, they know how to navigate. My experience
with the old INS was that lawyers got to the front of lines, had
appointments and/or reservations in advance, etc. And no amount of
literacy will get you through any bureaucrateze form without finding
some ambiguity that will cause you distress.
== Bill Shutts
David Stevenson
>Unfortunate that Madala didn't curb his gambling jones until the
>Detroit NABC. The Harrah's-owned Casino Windsor, located in Windor,
>Ontario, is a stone's throw across the border from Detroit. The legal
>gambling age in Ontario is 19, so Agustin could have cheerfully - and
>legally- gambled to his heart's content.
Would he have got across the border with Brad's passport?
Ok, ok, it was a joke!!! Just a joke, ok?
David Babcock
> Whether or not they impress, they know how to navigate.
Perhaps (I have outlined my own real-world experience with those
agencies; no one else in this thread has yet done so). The question
in front of us is whether such experience could be of any benefit to
Mr. Madala. He is (we are told) back in Argentina. I do not know
whether attorneys in the US versed in State/CIS doings encourage
engagement by foreign nationals who have been denied admission. If
they do -- which I strongly doubt, but I would welcome correction
based on actual cases -- I agree that it certainly cannot hurt Mr.
Madala to try to make use of their services, except in terms of the
loss of time if they do not succeed. My counsel here is pretty much
one of despair. If you plan to visit the US often, you just do not to
something, um, "unfortunate" enough to be denied entry. No quantity
of attorneys can change the fact that *being denied entry creates
future problems*. Maybe it is unfair to expect a 20-year-old to
foresee this kind of denouement. But -- so???
BTW, can someone please post a URL for authoritative information on
what happened at the airport?
David