Bid these hands (Precision)
Mike Bell
Whats your call on KQ AKQT9873 void 762?
After the auction 1H:1S, 4H, what would you bid on AT87 64 AJ84 AK5?
Mike
John (MadDog) Probst
<mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> writes
9 playing tricks and you opened this 1H? I abstain from further
discussion.
--
John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou
451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou
London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |jo...@asimere.com
+44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john
Kieran Dyke
"Mike Bell" <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote in message
news:54baa0d...@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk...
How about
1H: 1S:
4H: 4NT (rkc):
5S: 5NT (confirming all keys):
7NT (counting thirteen winners)
Seems pretty easy.
Tiggrr
Bruce Scott
I don't like the 1H opener in precision. Either 1C, 4H, or 4C as a strong 4H
opener
seem to be better to me.
DavJFlower
I don't like the 1H opening, but that at least was a difficlut decision.
The real problem was 1S - this is a text book 2NT response in Precision, and
thatr is the major cause of your problem
Dave Flower
Gordon Rainsford
> >IMPs, green vul, first seat, playing Precision.
> >
> >Whats your call on KQ AKQT9873 void 762?
> >
> >After the auction 1H:1S, 4H, what would you bid on AT87 64 AJ84 AK5?
> >
> >Mike
> >
>
> I don't like the 1H opening, but that at least was a difficlut decision.
>
> The real problem was 1S - this is a text book 2NT response in Precision
That rather depends which text book you follow :) I think many modern
Precisioners play some sort of Jacoby here. Wasn't the idea of playing
it as Baron introduced by Reese? I don't think it was in the original
system, was it?
> , and thatr is the major cause of your problem
>
I thought Kieran produced a nice sequence to the top spot starting with
1H-1S.
--
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
Frances Hinden
>
> Whats your call on KQ AKQT9873 void 762?
>
> After the auction 1H:1S, 4H, what would you bid on AT87 64 AJ84 AK5?
>
I admit it. A good hand for RKCB. I suppose there must be one every now and again!
> Mike
DavJFlower
>system, was it?
'Two notrump response to ... one heart shows 16 points or more and is normally
a balanced hand'
C.C.Wei: Precision Bidding in Bridge, 1sr edition, 1969
Dave Flower
Mike Bell
Mike Bell <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
The main reason for this post was to test conflicting advice I've been
given: Some have told me that with shapely hands, you shouldn't be too
keen to open 1C as you will be preempted out of the auction. I observed
this before when I had AQT to 9 diamonds and a lot outside, opened 1C,
and the auction proceeded 1C-(4H)-4S-(5H). Maybe at the vul I shouldn't
have worried about that so much.
I'm surprised one person preferred a 4H opener, as my bidding must show
a hand too strong to open 4H? There doesn't seem to be much chance of 1H
being passed out and at green vul there isn't much danger of the opps
finding a good sac. But even so, I wish this had come up in my other
partnership where we play Namyats!
Yes, a 2NT response would have been an INV+ 4 trump raise (Jacoby 2-step
continuations).
How do people play 1H:1S, 2NT and 1H:1S, 3NT? We play the former as a
max 6H-3S but have no agreement about the latter.
Mike
Ivan Popivanov
1C and rebid 4H.
Now let's move to the other side of the table. Recently I held xx
AKQJTxxx Jx x, playing precision I opened 4H, we missed a slam,
which is around 50%. I believe 1H 1S; 4H is stronger than a 4H
opening, and ATxx xx AJxx AKx is a monstreous hand. So my point is
that partner can easily envision 12 tricks facing even 4H opening and
definitely 1H 1S; 4H promises something on the side. Therefore, I
think he has to drive to slam after 1H 1S; 4H.
Regards,
Ivan
Mike Bell <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote in message news:<54baa0d...@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk>...
Sandy E. Barnes
>
> Whats your call on KQ AKQT9873 void 762?
4C.
This is within my limits for Namyats. Playing "standard" without Namyats, I
open 1H.
>
> After the auction 1H:1S, 4H, what would you bid on AT87 64 AJ84 AK5?
Blackwood. Why would you tink this a problem?
Sandy Barnes
>
> Mike
zog
> In message <54baa0d...@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk>
> Mike Bell <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > IMPs, green vul, first seat, playing Precision.
> >
> > Whats your call on KQ AKQT9873 void 762?
> >
> > After the auction 1H:1S, 4H, what would you bid on AT87 64 AJ84 AK5?
> >
> > Mike
>
> The main reason for this post was to test conflicting advice I've been
> given: Some have told me that with shapely hands, you shouldn't be too
> keen to open 1C as you will be preempted out of the auction. I observed
> this before when I had AQT to 9 diamonds and a lot outside, opened 1C,
> and the auction proceeded 1C-(4H)-4S-(5H). Maybe at the vul I shouldn't
> have worried about that so much.
>
> I'm surprised one person preferred a 4H opener, as my bidding must show
> a hand too strong to open 4H?
What! too strong to open 4H? You are too strong to open at game level you
open it with a non-forcing bid! If you are too strong for 4H you have to
open 1C!
(As it happens I play a big club system and 4C would have been a big Heart
hand with less than 16 hcp. But if you don't play that then my first choice
is 1C with a second choice of 4H. No third option.)
Bruce Scott
"Mike Bell" <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote in message
news:851fe4d...@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk...
>
The person who wrote about the possibility of a 4H
opener is surprised as well. I went back to find out
who was the nutjob who suggested a 4H opening.
Apparently I'm the nutjob. Please read "1C, 4H, or
4C as a strong 4H opener" as "1C or 4C as a strong
4H opener".
Cheers,
Bruce
foo bar
outside the long suit are exactly what it is designed for. The convention
also works well on very very long suits eg 9 and 10, such as one is apt to
get in goulash tournaments :)
Stephen
--
Stephen Pickett, PO Box 44538, Vancouver BC Canada V5M 4R8
Telephone: (604) 874-7327, Fax: (604) 874-7326, ICQ UIN#212132
Go see BRidgeBRowser at http://www.microtopia.net/bridge/
Mike Bell <mi...@bellfamily.org.uk> wrote in message
news:54baa0d...@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk...
Larry Lowell
> Please read "1C, 4H, or 4C as a strong 4H opener" as "1C or 4C as a strong
> 4H opener".
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce
In ACBLand you can NOT open this hand 1 club A & F with only 14 HCP,
that is more than a 1 HCP deviation from a conventional bid which is
illegal. My previous Precision partner has been called on this by a TD
more than once.
I would open 1H if not playing Namyats.
Larry Lowell
Knoxville, TN, USA
Kieran Dyke
"Larry Lowell" <lnlo...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:ab563f72.04080...@posting.google.com...
It's frightening what happens when hand evaluation is placed in the hands of
directors and committees instead of players.
Tiggrr
Eric Kehr
least 2 tricks better than an average hand? Or are you not allowed to do
this either?
Eric Kehr
London, England
Larry Lowell
You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!
However, I have opened in a suit (especially hearts with 0-1 spade or
with a strong 2-suiter without spades) with 15 hcp or more when
playing Precision. I also play a 14-16 NT Vulnerable, thus 1 Club
with a balanced hand and NT rebid is 17-19.
Larry Lowell
USA
Reef Fish
>
> You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
> unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!
Larry, as I always say, "Points, Schmoints." But the above claim of
yours about ABCLand is absolutely incredible. I don't believe it. :-)
I'll have to see it in writing and documented somewhere before I'll
believe this kind of ABSURDITY can exist in ANY bridge organization,
that if I hold 13 cards in the same suit (10 HCP) and 1C is my only
Strong, Artificial & Forcing bid that I CANNOT open the hand with 1C,
playing Precision or any other Big Club system!
I am specifically challenging your assertion, "15 hcp or more. No
exceptions!" that you attributed to ACBL, on some rulings by a TD.
-- Bob.
Reef Fish
> I bid 4C because I play NAMYATS. These freaky hands with 0.5 to 1 trick
> outside the long suit are exactly what it is designed for. The convention
> also works well on very very long suits eg 9 and 10, such as one is apt to
> get in goulash tournaments :)
This is not to debate the merits of NAMYATS.
I am more concerned with one allegation (by Larry Lowell) that ACBL does
NOT allow a Precision 1C opening with less than 15 HCPs.
If that is true, than the disallowed 1C opening hands may be those that
are absolutely cold for a MINOR or MAJOR suit of 10 (or even less) HCPs
that would allow the (Precision) 1C opener to launch into various ASKING
bids, in the presence of a positive response, to look for a small or
grand slam, possibly in a strain that is NOT the suit that is cold for
game! This is particularly true of choosing a major over a minor (if
there's slam in both) or choosing a slam in NT over one in a major at
match points.
In the NYC NABC last month, I gained 2 IMPS in a KO match by bidding and
making 6S, playing Precision, while the more easily reachable contract
was 6C, bid and made by the opponents, though that particular hand was
not a freakish one-suited hand as the ones in question here.
If the ACBL does not allow a Precision Club to be opened with less than
15 HCP, it would indeed strip that system of some of its most powerful
features in slam bidding. THAT is why I wanted to see if someone
affiliated with the ACBL can settle the claim made about ACBL ruling
by Larry Lowell.
-- Bob.
Larry Lowell
This statement of mind that 1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP by ACBL
is implicit, not explicit.
Here are the sources used to arrive at this conclusion:
ACBL GENERAL CONVENTION CHART, 2004 [www.acbl.org]
ALLOWED ** Unless specifically allowed, methods are disallowed **
RESPONSES AND REBIDS.
"6. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing
opening bids and after opening bids of 2 clubs or higher."
However, if you use all natural responses to an artificial forcing
club, I conclude that 10 HCP is the lower limit for opening 1 Club.
[Most serious Precision Partnerships do not use ALL natural responses
- LPL]
DISALLOWED
"2. Psyching of artificial or conventional opening bids and/or
conventional responses thereto. Psyching conventional suit responses,
which are less than 2NT, to natural openings."
What consitutes a psych of an artificial or conventional opening
bid? It seems that ACBL has decided that for 1 club A & F more than a
1 hcp deviation is deemed a psych. [Several TD rulings against a
former Precision Partner of mine.]
For 2 clubs the answer is more difficult and has been partially
addressed in another thread. More HCP deviation is allowed for 2
clubs A & F.
Larry Lowell
>This statement of min[e] that 1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP by
ACBL
is implicit, not explicit.
However, consider this additional information from ACBL Duplicate
Decisions, A Club Director's Guide for Ruling at the Table, 1998, page
33-34.
PSYCHS WHICH REQUIRE NO REGULATION OR DIRECTOR ATTENTION:
Any call that deliberately and grossly misstates either honor strength
or suit length is by definition a psych. However, some psychs are
disruptive to the game while others involve bridge tactics.
These definitions should help to distinguish a psych that warrants
disciplinary action or, at the least, attention by the Director, from
those that are an integral part of the game.
A TACTIAL BID is a psych that is made to paint a picture in an
opponent's and partner's mind that will cause them to play you for a
holding that you do not have, enabling you to succeed at the contract
to which you were inevitably headed. [An example is given of 1S - 2D
with spade support, game points, and nothing in diamonds as a lead
inhibition bid.]
NOTE: Frequent use of tatics similar to this will develop an implicit
partnership agreement which requires an ALERT.
A WAITING BID is generally a forcing bid made by responder to allow
him time to learn more about partner's opening hand. This type of
call is only rarely a psych since in most cases the suit length is not
grossly misstated. [Example: 1S - 2C with AQ in clubs and spade
support but too strong for a single raise, but balanced and less then
game points.]
A DEVIATION was defined by Don Oakie (Feb. 1978, ACBL BULLETIN) as a
bid in which the strength of the hand is within a queen [2 HCP] of the
agreed stength and the bid is of a suit of ample length or of notrump.
He also defined a DEVIATION as a bid of a suit in which the length of
the suit varies by no more than one card from the agreed or announced
lenght= and the hand contains ample high-card values for the bid in
the system being played. If either of these situations occur, it is
easy to see by repeating the definition of a psych (a deliberate and
gross misstatement of honor strength or suit length) that a DEVIATION
is NOT A PSYCH.
HOWEVER, frequent deviations may indicate a serious problem. Frequent
deviations may indicate that the pair has an undisclosed implied
agreement acquired through experience. This situation should be dealt
with firmly."
This contradicts my friend's experience of deviating from the
announced strength of 1 Club A & F by 2 HCP and being told by a TD
that this was not allowed.
By the way, Flannery 2D may not be psyched either. (pg. 32)
Larry Lowell
Reef Fish
> Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com (Reef Fish) wrote in message news:<8fb7380b.04080...@posting.google.com>...
> > lnlo...@flash.net (Larry Lowell) wrote in message news:<ab563f72.04080...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
> > > unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!
> >
> > Larry, as I always say, "Points, Schmoints." But the above claim of
> > yours about ABCLand is absolutely incredible. I don't believe it. :-)
> >
> > I'll have to see it in writing and documented somewhere before I'll
> > believe this kind of ABSURDITY can exist in ANY bridge organization,
> > that if I hold 13 cards in the same suit (10 HCP) and 1C is my only
> > Strong, Artificial & Forcing bid that I CANNOT open the hand with 1C,
> > playing Precision or any other Big Club system!
> >
> > I am specifically challenging your assertion, "15 hcp or more. No
> > exceptions!" that you attributed to ACBL, on some rulings by a TD.
> >
> > -- Bob.
>
> This statement of mind that 1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP by ACBL
> is implicit, not explicit.
But that's a far cry from justifying your own statement. Besides,
where you drew your IMPLICIT statement was NOT from a statement about
a Precision 1C opening, but about psychic bids.
> RESPONSES AND REBIDS.
This is IRRELEVANT to my point (and yours). We were talking about
OPENING 1C with less than 15 HCP.
> However, if you use all natural responses to an artificial forcing
> club, I conclude that 10 HCP is the lower limit for opening 1 Club.
> [Most serious Precision Partnerships do not use ALL natural responses
> - LPL]
NO Precision Partnership, serious or not, ever use ALL natural responses.
Come on, Larry, you're now contradicting yourself on your "ACBLand
15 hcp minimum, no exception" statement.
> DISALLOWED
>
> "2. Psyching of artificial or conventional opening bids and/or
> conventional responses thereto. Psyching conventional suit responses,
> which are less than 2NT, to natural openings."
This would be the case if you open a Precision 1C with 2 HCP, e.g.,
which is less than 15 HCP, but that belongs to the realm of the
definition of a PSYCHIC bid, rather than the ACBL rule about artifical
1C bids.
I assume no one, TD or otherwise, with the right mind, would consider
this hand:
S - H 2 - D AKQJ10987654 C 2
to be a psych bid if opened 1C with a Precision Club!
> What consitutes a psych of an artificial or conventional opening
> bid? It seems that ACBL has decided that for 1 club A & F more than a
> 1 hcp deviation is deemed a psych. [Several TD rulings against a
> former Precision Partner of mine.]
Given your explanation, I STILL challenge the validity of your
extrapolated statement about ACBLand rule!
The more pertinent part of my objection to your implied ACBL rule is
the following, expressed in this thread, in response to another poster:
QUOTE <Reef Fish>
I am more concerned with one allegation (by Larry Lowell) that ACBL does
NOT allow a Precision 1C opening with less than 15 HCPs.
If that is true, than the disallowed 1C opening hands may be those that
are absolutely cold for a MINOR or MAJOR suit of 10 (or even less) HCPs
that would allow the (Precision) 1C opener to launch into various ASKING
bids, in the presence of a positive response, to look for a small or
grand slam, possibly in a strain that is NOT the suit that is cold for
game! This is particularly true of choosing a major over a minor (if
there's slam in both) or choosing a slam in NT over one in a major at
match points.
In the NYC NABC last month, I gained 2 IMPS in a KO match by bidding and
making 6S, playing Precision, while the more easily reachable contract
was 6C, bid and made by the opponents, though that particular hand was
not a freakish one-suited hand as the ones in question here.
If the ACBL does not allow a Precision Club to be opened with less than
15 HCP, it would indeed strip that system of some of its most powerful
features in slam bidding. THAT is why I wanted to see if someone
affiliated with the ACBL can settle the claim made about ACBL ruling
by Larry Lowell.
END QUOTE <Reef Fish>
-- Bob.
Chris Wiggins
ACBL site, I have sent a message to the ACBL tournament directors
office to ask for definitive clarification.
My understanding has always been that a person is free to open 1C with
fewer than 16 HCP if they think that the playing strength of the hand
is sufficent to compensate for the "missing" HCP. One of the ways to
do this, is to bid "normally" after.
From a definitional perspective, shading the HCP this way is not a
psyche. The "Bridge World" web site defines a psyche as "a call made
without the values normally associated with it, to deceive the
opposition." From the English Bridge Union, a psych is defined as "a
deliverate and gross distortion of suit length or playing strength."
With the given hand KQ/AKQxxxxx/void/xxx, opener is not trying to
deceive the opponents nor is he grossly distorting his playing
strength.
Even if my understanding is correct, I am not surprised that you got
some bad rulings. In addition to ignorance, some tournament directors
are extremely hostile towards Precision and make extralegal rulings in
line with that hositility. My personal favorite is where partner
failed to alert a bid and the tournament director adjusted our score
to average minus--it was debatable whether that was deserved--and then
penalized us an additional one board additional because "you shouldn't
play Precision unless you know how to alert properly."
Kieran Dyke
"Larry Lowell" <lnlo...@flash.net> wrote in message .
>
> By the way, Flannery 2D may not be psyched either. (pg. 32)
Is this part of a regulation published elsewhere (where players can read
it), or is this particular ban "secret directors' business".
Tiggrr
>
> Larry Lowell
Julian Lighton
It's in the GCC:
DISALLOWED
[...]
Julian Lighton
Larry Lowell <lnlo...@flash.net> wrote:
>>Larry Lowell wrote:
>>This statement of min[e] that 1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP by
>ACBL
>is implicit, not explicit.
>
>However, consider this additional information from ACBL Duplicate
>Decisions, A Club Director's Guide for Ruling at the Table, 1998, page
>33-34.
>
>PSYCHS WHICH REQUIRE NO REGULATION OR DIRECTOR ATTENTION:
>
>Any call that deliberately and grossly misstates either honor strength
>or suit length is by definition a psych. However, some psychs are
>disruptive to the game while others involve bridge tactics.
>
>These definitions should help to distinguish a psych that warrants
>disciplinary action or, at the least, attention by the Director, from
>those that are an integral part of the game.
>
>A TACTIAL BID is a psych that is made to paint a picture in an
>opponent's and partner's mind that will cause them to play you for a
>holding that you do not have, enabling you to succeed at the contract
>to which you were inevitably headed. [An example is given of 1S - 2D
>with spade support, game points, and nothing in diamonds as a lead
>inhibition bid.]
A "tactical bid", as described here, is just a psyche.
Generally, the ACBL does not actually mandate rigid hand evaluation by
HCP. (The exception is that you may not deviate your ten point opening
NT downward even slightly. (Because they're evil, that's why.))
A club director may have ruled that the 1C opening was an illegal
psyche because it was, or because the director is clueless.
(Opening 1C showing 15+ on QJx QJx QJxxx KJ is clearly a psyche, even
though there are 13 "points" there. Doing so on AQT9xxx - - AQT9xx
isn't, even though there are merely 12. To the best of my knowledge,
the ACBL would agree with me.)
DavJFlower
>NOT allow a Precision 1C opening with less than 15 HCPs.
Do the ACBL really penalise opening:
A K Q 10 9 8 7
A J 10 9 8 7
void
void
with 1C ?
Dave Flower
Bill Reich
I would think responder would get the picture and bid a slam on this auction.
Opener must have awfully good Hearts and he can't have much in the way of
controls, also, as he would have opened 1C with both. The grand might be
reached if opener simply shows his key cards over RKC and doesn't do anything
to show the void. Now 5NT would tell her that all the Aces were accounted
for and she would note the eighth Heart and the Queen of Spades and bid the
grand.
Will in New Haven
--
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"
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Bill Reich
I agree that the ACBL is really legislating judgement here. I don't WANT
to open 1C on this hand and would not do so if allowed. I want my suit to
be bid before this hand reaches the five level.
Bill Reich
No, but a non-vulnerable opponent might, by bidding 2S with 0-1-6-6 and some
cards. I did this in a similar situation last year.
The Clubbers never got it untangled. Playing against Forcing Clubs is more
fun than playing them.
Reef Fish
> >This statement of min[e] that 1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP by
> ACBL is implicit, not explicit.
And you forgot your quote about the 1C statement above, "There are
NO exceptions."
That makes it a RULE, with very explicit requirements -- which is
what I challenged.
>
> However, consider this additional information from ACBL Duplicate
> Decisions, A Club Director's Guide for Ruling at the Table, 1998, page
> 33-34.
>
> PSYCHS WHICH REQUIRE NO REGULATION OR DIRECTOR ATTENTION:
This is entirely irrelevant red-herring!
It points to PSYCHS, TACTICS, and DEVIATIONS -- which are well-known
to any bridge player, I presume (hence I snipped your quotes).
Take the example of a hand cold for 5D I posted elsewhere:
S - H 2 D AKQJ10987654 C 2.
It clearly violated your claim of "no exception to 15+ for opening
a Precision 1C".
Clearly no one would call that a PSHCH of a forcing 1C bid.
Clearly no one would quibble or obfuscate with any irrelevant
notion of a "deviation" which would apply to many OTHER situation
but NOT in the case of an Opening bid of 1C in a artificial,
forcing Precision Club situation.
Other stringent point count requirements and "deviations" would
likely apply to NT bids which are rather rigid and specific on
point counts, spreads, and shape.
Those are NOT comparable examples to freakish (distributional
hands) in which the notion of POINT COUNT fails completely!
> By the way, Flannery 2D may not be psyched either. (pg. 32)
Again, this refers to a PSYCH. A psyche that would mostly likely
be one in DISTRIBUTIONAL shape (or deviation) from the 4-5 major
prescription.
I have written to the ACBL about your original statement.
I hope to get a response or clarification to your claim:
"1 Club A & F is limited to 15 HCP ; NO exception"
as well as my example, which I believe is perfectly suitable for
a Precision opening of 1C:
S - H 2 D AKQJ10987654 C 2.
as well as millions of variants of it that are cold for game but
lack the 15 HCP (or less) minimum.
I'll report back to this group if I get any kind of "official"
position on this issue. I hope others will do the same.
Again, it's NOT a question of psych or deviation, but solely a
question of an Opening Bid that SHOULD NOT have a minimum point
count requirement!
-- Bob.
Reef Fish
> I think you and your partner have gotten bad rulings. Through the
> ACBL site, I have sent a message to the ACBL tournament directors
> office to ask for definitive clarification.
I have done the same, through the ACBL.org site (ruling section).
Since I sent my inquiry only 12 hours ago, I haven't received a reply
yet, but would be surprised if I get anything substantially different
from your understanding of what you received.
Thanks for your follow-up on this precise point:
>
> My understanding has always been that a person is free to open 1C with
> fewer than 16 HCP if they think that the playing strength of the hand
> is sufficent to compensate for the "missing" HCP. One of the ways to
> do this, is to bid "normally" after.
Such as the systematic use of asking bids consistent with any 1C
opening of a hand with more than 16 HCP.
> From a definitional perspective, shading the HCP this way is not a
> psyche.
I think this point should be obvious.
> With the given hand KQ/AKQxxxxx/void/xxx, opener is not trying to
> deceive the opponents nor is he grossly distorting his playing
> strength.
Change the actual hand ever slightly to
KQ/AKQxxxxxx/void/xx
or even KJ/AKQxxxxxxx/void/x
surely no one would call that a psyche of a Precision 1C Opening.
> My personal favorite is where partner
> failed to alert a bid and the tournament director adjusted our score
> to average minus--it was debatable whether that was deserved--and then
> penalized us an additional one board additional because "you shouldn't
> play Precision unless you know how to alert properly."
Thanks for the tip! I am a prime candidate for both of those rulings,
especially the 1 board penalty!!! :-)
Don't tell me you didn't file an appeal to string that director up from
the celing by his ears. :-))
-- Bob.
Larry Lowell
> chrisw...@comcast.net (Chris Wiggins) wrote in message [snip]
> > I think you and your partner have gotten bad rulings. Through the
> > ACBL site, I have sent a message to the ACBL tournament directors
> > office to ask for definitive clarification.
>
> I have done the same, through the ACBL.org site (ruling section).
> Since I sent my inquiry only 12 hours ago, I haven't received a reply
> yet, but would be surprised if I get anything substantially different
> from your understanding of what you received.
>
> Thanks for your follow-up on this precise point:
> >
> > My understanding has always been that a person is free to open 1C with
> > fewer than 16 HCP if they think that the playing strength of the hand
> > is sufficent to compensate for the "missing" HCP. One of the ways to
> > do this, is to bid "normally" after.
>
> Such as the systematic use of asking bids consistent with any 1C
> opening of a hand with more than 16 HCP.
>
>
> > From a definitional perspective, shading the HCP this way is not a
> > psyche.
>
> I think this point should be obvious.
>
>
[snip]
Regardless of your arguments, reality is what NATIONAL TOURNAMENT
DIRECTORS rule consistently even if not written down as a rule.
I rechecked with my former Precision partner today and he reconfirmed
that he was told on two separate occasions by respected National TDs
that more than a 1 HCP deviation when opening an artificial 1 club bid
is a gross deviation and is considered a psych.
All psychic openings of forcing artificial bids are prohibited at ACBL
sanctioned events. Effective January 1, 1978. (Chapter XII, A., ACBL
Codification, ACBL web site)
Larry Lowell
P.S. I posted all revelant material I could find to facilitate
discussion and shed light (not heat), not to lend support to one
particular view.
I believe in keeping up to date about TD rulings and appeals so that I
can keep the local directors informed. I don't study the appeals case
books as much as I use to since I find them frequently inconsistent.
Another rule I can't find written anywhere is deviating from your
annouced 1NT by 1 HCP. Such action will bring a warning from the TD
and the second time in the same session, a penalty.
Peter Leighton
Larry -
If you alert (and put on your card) 1C as something
like "16 points, may be as few as 13 with compensating distribution",
will this protect you from an adverse ruling?
Peter
Larry Lowell
>
> Larry -
>
> If you alert (and put on your card) 1C as something
> like "16 points, may be as few as 13 with compensating distribution",
> will this protect you from an adverse ruling?
>
> Peter
Good question, Peter. I don't know.
A proposed reason for opening with less than 15 HCP was to use the
Precision Asking Bids, especially with a 1-suited hand. I believe
that 2-suited hands are best opened with 1 of the higher ranking suit
even if 15-17 HCP.
Another question not asked is: "Can you open other than 1 club with
16+ HCP? Can responder respond 1D with a poor 8-9 HCP?" We all know
that Qxx Qxx Qxx Qxxx is not worth a positive response to 1-club. Why
doesn't ACBL allow minor deviations because of hand evaluation? If
you open 1NT with 14 HCP with a 5-card suit (counting 1 pt for shape),
you are in violation if your announced NT range is 15-17. You have to
put 14+ to 17 to cover that possibility.
It will be interesting to see if ACBL sheds any further light on what
constitutes a psych of 1 club A & F (from those that e-mailed or
called ACBL last Friday).
Larry
Chris Wiggins
> DIRECTORS rule consistently even if not written down as a rule.
I agree that the reality is what TDs are ruling, which is why I am
trying to clarify with the folks at ACBL Rulings.
> I rechecked with my former Precision partner today and he reconfirmed
> that he was told on two separate occasions by respected National TDs
> that more than a 1 HCP deviation when opening an artificial 1 club bid
> is a gross deviation and is considered a psych.
I never doubted that your partner got this ruling. What I doubt is
that the ruling conforms to what the ACBL intended.
Ed Reppert
Wiggins <chrisw...@comcast.net> wrote:
Hm. I missed the early part of this thread somehow. Anyway. The ACBL
may have, or somebody *in* the ACBL hierarchy may have, decided that
more than a 1 HCP deviation is a gross deviation, but if they did,
they're full of it. Not that *my* opinion matters. :-)
In article <ab563f72.04080...@posting.google.com>, Larry
Lowell <lnlo...@flash.net> wrote:
> I believe in keeping up to date about TD rulings and appeals so that I
> can keep the local directors informed. I don't study the appeals case
> books as much as I use to since I find them frequently inconsistent.
The casebooks seem to be an endangered species, anyway. :-(
> Another rule I can't find written anywhere is deviating from your
> annouced 1NT by 1 HCP. Such action will bring a warning from the TD
> and the second time in the same session, a penalty.
The actual rule is #7 under "disallowed" on the GCC - you can't use
conventional responses to 1NT if you open *by* *agreement* on less than
10 HCP. Since the (alleged, since I can't prove it) purpose of this
regulation is to restrict the bottom end of a natural 1NT opening to no
less than 10 HCP (which would be an illegal regulation stated that way
- see Law 40A), it seems that TDs have been told (or have just decided)
to rule as you say - but it would seem such a ruling does not conform
to the regulation, unless in fact you *are* using conventional
responses. :-)
Reef Fish
>
> > chrisw...@comcast.net (Chris Wiggins) wrote in message [snip]
> > > I think you and your partner have gotten bad rulings. Through the
> > > ACBL site, I have sent a message to the ACBL tournament directors
> > > office to ask for definitive clarification.
> >
> > I have done the same, through the ACBL.org site (ruling section).
> > Since I sent my inquiry only 12 hours ago, I haven't received a reply
> > yet, but would be surprised if I get anything substantially different
> > from your understanding of what you received.
I am still waiting for my reply from the ACBL Rulings section.
> [snip]
>
> Regardless of your arguments, reality is what NATIONAL TOURNAMENT
> DIRECTORS rule consistently even if not written down as a rule.
Another reality is that NTDs are NOT infallable.
> I rechecked with my former Precision partner today and he reconfirmed
> that he was told on two separate occasions by respected National TDs
> that more than a 1 HCP deviation when opening an artificial 1 club bid
> is a gross deviation and is considered a psych.
If we are going to be PEDANTIC about this whole nonsense, how can a
1 HCP deviat5ion be a "gross deviation" when a "deviation" is, as you
cited, within 2 HCP.
LL> A DEVIATION was defined by Don Oakie (Feb. 1978, ACBL BULLETIN) as a
LL> bid in which the strength of the hand is within a queen [2 HCP] of the
LL> agreed stength and the bid is of a suit of ample length or of notrump.
> All psychic openings of forcing artificial bids are prohibited at ACBL
> sanctioned events. Effective January 1, 1978. (Chapter XII, A., ACBL
> Codification, ACBL web site)
That evades the point of calling an Precision 1C Opening with
xx/AKQJ1098765/void/x
and myriads of similar hands of 4 (FOUR) more HCP a pschic opening
bid in Precision!
That's really carrying "POINTS, SCHMOINTS" abuse to the ultimate limit!
If that kind of insanity REALLY exists in what you call ACBL REALITY,
then the only sensible solution would be something like what Peter
Leighton asked/suggested in his follow-up to your post:
PL> If you alert (and put on your card) 1C as something
PL> like "16 points, may be as few as 13 with compensating distribution",
PL> will this protect you from an adverse ruling?
If that's the ACBL stance, considering a 1 HCP less than the stated
minimum a "psyche" bid, then MY Precision card will have to read, for
the 1C artificial forcing bid, something like:
USUALLY 16 HCP minimum, but if the hand contains
10 or more sure tricks in a suit contract, the HCP
may be as little as 10*
* Actually I am not too happy about the 10 HCP minimum either,
because there are hands with LESS than 10 HCPs that are cold
for a slam!
AKJ1098765432/void/void/x
is surely cold for 12 tricks. It's rather difficult to find
out specifically about the Club Ace without a 1C opening and
subsequent asking bids!
-- Bob.
Bill Reich
How does this asking bid work exactly?
You: 1C
LHO: 3D
P: Whatever action he or she is supposed to take with the hand in question
RHO: 5D
Aren't you going to have to shoot six of your suit one way or another MUCH
of the time, whether you open 1S, 2C or 1C?
Will in New Haven
--
"Then she stepped out in the alley with a single-shot four-ten and the road goes on forever and the party never ends."
Robert Earl Keene, Jr. lyrics from "The Road Goes on Forever and the Party Never Ends" from GRINGO HONEYMOON
Reef Fish
> Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com (Reef Fish) wrote:
> >> > I have done the same, through the ACBL.org site (ruling section).
> >> > Since I sent my inquiry only 12 hours ago, I haven't received a reply
> >> > yet, but would be surprised if I get anything substantially different
> >> > from your understanding of what you received.
> >
> >I am still waiting for my reply from the ACBL Rulings section.
> >
> >
> >> [snip]
That's spelled out in any version of the Precision one plays, so I
won't bother to show. But the crux of YOUR question (point) is that
in the presence of high level preempt or competition by the opponents,
the 1C opener may not be able to use the asking bid anyway.
Very, very true.
But then, that's irrelevant and independent of the RULING of not
allowing an OPENING bid of 1C on a hand cold for slam, isn't it?
>
> You: 1C
>
> LHO: 3D
>
> P: Whatever action he or she is supposed to take with the hand in question
>
>
> RHO: 5D
>
> Aren't you going to have to shoot six of your suit one way or another MUCH
> of the time, whether you open 1S, 2C or 1C?
In the case of a high level interference, true. That's also true when
1C is opened with 16 HCP or 33 HCP.
But the fact remains that opponent do not always interfere just because
1C is opened, and especially when partner has a positive response, they
may not bid high enough to shut out an asking bid sequence.
Whatever the situation it may be AFTER then opening of 1C, it has little
or nothing to do with whether 1C CAN be (according to ACBL) opened with
less than 16 HCP.
Actually, I think the problem is more critical for those using 2C as
the artifial, forcing opening bid.
In the booklet "Club Letter Standard" (Head writer Bernie Chasen;
Expert Staff: Bernie Chazen, Paul Soloway, Alan Sontag, Alvin Roth),
the convention card shows:
2C 20+ HCP's Strong, forcing, artificial
Does ACBL or any other bridge organization going to rule the hand
below as a PSYCHE and NOT allowed, if opened with 2C?
AKQJ1098 / AKQ / xx / x
or AKQJ109 / AKQ1098 / x / void
because they are opened with LESS than 20 HCP?
I think it's much easier to discuss the 2C (standard) Opening in terms
of HCP requirement and its remification in view of the Psyche ruling
for "1 HCP deviation"!
If the absurdity of requiring a minimum of 16 HCP is not a problem
to some, then the requirement of a minimum of 20 HCP surely should
bother everyone.
If this is what ACBL consider "bridge", I'll gladly go back into
hibernation for another 20 years. :-) There MUST be some SANITY
in what Larry calls REALITY, relative the HCP rule disregarding
playing strength, and the use of "psychic bid" as an excuse for
citing violation.
-- Bob.
Chris Wiggins
> that is more than a 1 HCP deviation from a conventional bid which is
> illegal. My previous Precision partner has been called on this by a TD
> more than once.
I just called Rick Beye, chief tournament director for the ACBL.
I posed the question whether I could open 1C Precision having
announced "usually 16+ HCP" and holding this 14 HCP hand:
KQ
AKQxxxxx
void
xxx
Beye said yes, I could open this hand 1C even though it has only 14
HCP. Beye said that the question is whether there is an intent to
deceive, and given this hand, that is clearly not my intent.
Beye also said that under Rule 40 of the Laws, I am allowed to deviate
from my partnership agreements at my own risk. I.e. I could open
lighter than the required HCP at my own risk. (But if I do it to
deceive opponents about my strength, then I would violate the Laws.)
Based on this, I conclude: (1) I am allowed to open with less than 16
HCP provided that I am not intending to deceive. (2) Your friend got
incorrect rulings. If he knows the TD, I suggest that he help the TD
contact the ACBL to clear up things.
Hope this helps.
Chris Wiggins
Reef Fish
> > In ACBLand you can NOT open this hand 1 club A & F with only 14 HCP,
> > that is more than a 1 HCP deviation from a conventional bid which is
> > illegal. My previous Precision partner has been called on this by a TD
> > more than once.
>
> I just called Rick Beye, chief tournament director for the ACBL.
>
> I posed the question whether I could open 1C Precision having
> announced "usually 16+ HCP" and holding this 14 HCP hand:
> KQ
> AKQxxxxx
> void
> xxx
>
> Beye said yes, I could open this hand 1C even though it has only 14
> HCP. Beye said that the question is whether there is an intent to
> deceive, and given this hand, that is clearly not my intent.
That's the way it SHOULD be, by bridge-commonsense alone.
>
> Beye also said that under Rule 40 of the Laws, I am allowed to deviate
> from my partnership agreements at my own risk. I.e. I could open
> lighter than the required HCP at my own risk. (But if I do it to
> deceive opponents about my strength, then I would violate the Laws.)
A nice corollary. That would be my bridge-commonsense take too.
>
> Based on this, I conclude: (1) I am allowed to open with less than 16
> HCP provided that I am not intending to deceive. (2) Your friend got
> incorrect rulings. If he knows the TD, I suggest that he help the TD
> contact the ACBL to clear up things.
>
> Hope this helps.
Yes Chris, and thanks. It helped restore my faith that (1) There is
SANITY in bridge REALITY, and (2) there is a god afterall. :)
>
> Chris Wiggins
iconoclastically yours,
-- Bob.
Bruce Scott
"Chris Wiggins" <chrisw...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c5d3a434.04080...@posting.google.com...
>
> Beye also said that under Rule 40 of the Laws, I am allowed to deviate
> from my partnership agreements at my own risk. I.e. I could open
> lighter than the required HCP at my own risk. (But if I do it to
> deceive opponents about my strength, then I would violate the Laws.)
>
Unless of course you wish to exercise your bridge judgement about
whether or not to open a 10-12 point 1NT with:
KT9
KT9
T9
KT987
which would be Evil (tm).
Or if you happen to open one point outside of your weak two range and are
also
young enough to still procreate.
Larry Lowell
> > > lnlo...@flash.net (Larry Lowell) worte in message:
Wonderful! An atack of Sanity and logic in ACBLand. :-)
I will pass this on to local Precision players / directors / past partner.
What needs to CHANGE so that we get consistent rulings from National TDs? :-(
How do you protect yourself against bad rulings?
There no longer is a Forum for such postings on the ACBL web page, shame.
Larry
Ian Payn
"Bruce Scott" <bruces...@attbi.nospam.com> wrote
>
> Or if you happen to open one point outside of your weak two range and are
> also
> young enough to still procreate.
++++Yes, I've noticed that. Older people seem to be able to do what they
like, and chortle with glee if they get a good result, whereas younger
people are hauled over the coals if they deviate slightly.
And I don't want a barrage of responses (hardly likely, I know) telling me
this doesn't happen, because it does. And try and call the director against
these old "masters", and what you get is a load of bridling indignation and
no ruling whatsoever. I have seen this in action, and had it reported to me
anecdotally: It's not an illusion. Hypocrisy. Sheer hypocrisy. Or "Evil", of
course.
Frances Hinden
Hypocrisy? Wot's that?
Ron Johnson
It's tough to talk about tactical bids because they cover a multitude
of sins.
Jeff Meckstroth mentions tactical bidding several times in his book.
Including a 3rd seat 1S opener on 4 spades.
Augie Boehm wrote an article for Bridge World where he advocates
(among other things) bidding 7 after going through Blackwood and
discovering that you're off an ace. (Only against strong opposition.
The logic here being that if the opening leader doesn't have the
ace, it's odds against his finding it on what is essentially a
blind lead. And if he *does* have the ace, he may reason that
you Blackwooded with a void -- in other words he may play you
to have bid tactically but may guess wrong as to the tactics)
Tactical bidding may include short or long suited lead directors.
(In Brian Glubock's artictle about playing with Al Roth and B Jay
Becker, he gives a hand where Al Roth bid 2C in response to
a Glubock 1S overcall with: xxxx, xx, xx, KTxxx. And then blamed
Glubock when the partnership got overboard. 4SX -800. Roth calls
his 2C tactical. It "should" allow him to judge his partner's
trick taking potential, and if they buy the hand Glubock should
get off to a decent lead.)
Walking the hand is a common form of tactical bidding. The
most frequent discussions on MSC are of the how can I talk them
out of a good save or into taking a phantom.
So tactical bidding can be psyches, but need not be.
About the only thing I can see that all of the various forms is
that the tactical bidder is masterminding the partnership. He
gives up on constructive bidding -- primarily to paint a
false picture for the opposition. (Or in the case of a short suited
lead director to get his partner to do the right thing)
--
RNJ
Reef Fish
> In article <10h6dpb...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Julian Lighton <jl...@fragment.com> wrote:
> >
> >A "tactical bid", as described here, is just a psyche.
>
> It's tough to talk about tactical bids because they cover a multitude
> of sins.
Or virtues, dependeing on your seat and point of view. :)
< excellent examples snipped >
> So tactical bidding can be psyches, but need not be.
That's a very good way to put it. Again, it's a question of
relative frequency. If frequently practiced, such players
would be severely penalized or barred, when frequent tactical
bids and frequent psychic bids become indistinguishable.
>
> About the only thing I can see that all of the various forms is
> that the tactical bidder is masterminding the partnership. He
> gives up on constructive bidding -- primarily to paint a
> false picture for the opposition. (Or in the case of a short suited
> lead director to get his partner to do the right thing)
All very true. There are situations in which you NEED to take
matters into your own hands, knowing that partner will NOT be
fooled (or cannot be fooled) for whatever obvious reasons. Then
your action is simply one of "tactics", to fool and mislead the
OPPONENTS, without any partnership understanding of the
deception.
Deception seemed to have taken a bad connotation in this thread,
but I can recall a thread on CARD PLAYS in this ng almost exactly
a year ago, in which deception is a TECHNIQUE, a valuable technique
at that, that all good players should possess!
See e.g., http://makeashorterlink.com/?E1EB53709
In the books and chapters I cited, they were full of terms like:
deceptive plays
deceptive carding
psychic plays
deceiving defenders
deceiving declarers
Are these out of fashion in today's competitive tournament bridge?
Should these techniques/tactics be barred? Of course not.
But in the CONTEXT of "tactics", there is a very fine line between
making a tactical bid to "deceive opponents" (and your own partner)
and making a deceptive play to "deceive declarers" (and your own
partner).
The ART of deception (when used properly) is a high level SKILL
in bridge that is not as easily acquired as a simple finness.
Having a game of bridge that bars a "tactical" bid would be
as boring as having a game disallowing all false cards. :-)
JMHO.
-- Bob.
Larry Lowell
Good try, but this is not a marginal 1 club A&F & strong opening IMHO.
It is a 4-loser hand and I don't think anyone would object to a 1 Club
opening with 4-losers.
Try a 5-loser hand with 14 HCP (2 HCP deviation):
KQ
AKQxxxx
xx
xx
Would ACBL consider a 5-loser hand a gross deviation?
The real question, I think: "What is a gross deviation (psych) of
opening 1 club artificial & forcing & strong" Is it 5-losers, is it 3
HCP from anounced strength. An answer or guideline is still needed
for TD ruling consistency.
Just last week playing against my former Precision partner, he opened
1 Club with:
Axx xxx
Jx Kxxx
AKQxxxx xxx
x AKx
And we pre-empted 3 clubs and his partner bid 3S showing 4-controls,
so they played 5D -1 with 3 NT cold. I would open 1D with that hand.
Larry Lowell
P.S. Last weekend an opponent psyched a 2NT response to a weak 2
Spade bid. The ACBL directors (at a Sectional Tournament) could not
answer if that was legal.
Bruce Scott
>
> P.S. Last weekend an opponent psyched a 2NT response to a weak 2
> Spade bid. The ACBL directors (at a Sectional Tournament) could not
> answer if that was legal.
Really? What does a 2NT bid show?
My 2NT bid doesn't show anything. It asks a couple of questions.
How can I psych an asking bid?
Anyway, supposing that you could somehow convince me that it is
possible to psych this 2NT asking bid (with the suggestion that
2NT for this pair specifically shows a good hand), it should be
trivial for a director who bothered to read the convention
charts to determine that such a call is completely and
straightforwardly legal.
From "Disallowed"
"#2 Psyching of artificial or conventional opening bids and/or
conventional responses thereto. Psyching conventional suit
responses, which are less than 2NT, to natural openings."
Notice that the 2NT response is not an opening bid. It is
also not a conventional suit response which is "less than
2NT". [Send in the grammar police!]
Psychics are another area (in addition to weak 2 bids and
natural notrump openings) where the ACBL uses a ridiculously
broad interpretation of its ability to regulate conventions
in order to stop people from actually playing bridge.
Larry Lowell
> >
> > P.S. Last weekend an opponent psyched a 2NT response to a weak 2
> > Spade bid. The ACBL directors (at a Sectional Tournament) could not
> > answer if that was legal.
>
> Really? What does a 2NT bid show?
> My 2NT bid doesn't show anything. It asks a couple of questions.
>
> How can I psych an asking bid?
>
By responding 2NT Ogust with an Ace and 3-card spade support and no
other hcp or unusual distribution and not knowing where you will end
up? This is NOT a tactical bid as in one of my previous posts in this
thread. [ .. enabling you to succeed at the contract to which you
were inevitably headed.]
Doesnt 2NT Ogust promise game invitational or better values? If not,
I think it needs an alert.
Larry Lowell
Bruce Scott
And, like I said in the earlier post, even if this was a psychic bid,
it wouldn't be illegal.
By the way, what do you mean "no idea where you will end up"?
You will end up in 3S.
If you were correct that a 2NT agreement which doesn't promise values
which satisfy Larry Lowell's requirements for 2NT requires an alert,
then your opponents may have been guilty of "failure to alert". It still
doesn't remotely make the 2NT bid "illegal".
If the opponents' agreement is that 2NT promises values but their responder
chose to psychically bid it without those values and talked you out of
something,
then he earned a good score for his pair. This is actually a tactic which,
despite
the efforts of the ACBL, is still allowed in bridge.
Bruce Scott
Earlier in the thread you said:
"You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!"
An exception was pointed out to you, by someone who queried the
ACBL's chief TD.
Game Over, man.
Dwayne Hoffman
everyday of the week.
Recently my pard and I had this hand:
AKT9x
AKT9x
x
xx
Pard correctly opened 1C, forcing - we landed in 4S, making - with a
mere 19 points. Only ones in field.
Opps got really snippy over the "psyche" of 1C, only to have me show
them the actual bylaws. Technically, 14-16 NTs can't have artificial and
conventional calls because of the "15 hcp" threshold, but it's
frequently allowed if the hand warrants. After they were shown Law 40,
the opps withdrew any protest they had.
Larry Lowell
The game is only in the third innning. Please read my post again.
Nothing much has been answered by submitting a 4-loser hand with 14
hcp and having ACBL say this is a legitimate 1 club A&F opening, I
already suspected that answer. I still don't know how low I can go.
Precision partnerships need to know.
The question remains, what is a gross deviation (psych)of an
artificial 1 club opening (strong, 15+ hcp)? Is it 3 hcp, 4 hcp, is
it 5-losers, or is it ... I will querie Mike Flader.
Larry Lowell
Bruce Scott
> > "You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
> > unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!"
> >
> > An exception was pointed out to you, by someone who queried the
> > ACBL's chief TD.
> >
> > Game Over, man.
>
> The game is only in the third innning. Please read my post again.
> Nothing much has been answered by submitting a 4-loser hand with 14
> hcp and having ACBL say this is a legitimate 1 club A&F opening, I
> already suspected that answer. I still don't know how low I can go.
> Precision partnerships need to know.
>
> The question remains, what is a gross deviation (psych)of an
> artificial 1 club opening (strong, 15+ hcp)? Is it 3 hcp, 4 hcp, is
> it 5-losers, or is it ... I will querie Mike Flader.
>
> Larry Lowell
What did you mean in your earlier post when you said
"You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!"
and how is it not totally refuted by the example that was OK'd by
the ACBL's chief TD?
If my memory serves me correctly, I saw Eric Greco playing a
system at an ACBL nationals where 1C opening was artificial
and forcing and showed a sound opener, while every other
opening bid showed less than an opening hand. (Except 1D
might have included 13-15 balanced, don't remember exactly.)
From the ACBL General Convention Chart:
"Allowed
Opening Bids
1. One Club or One Diamond may be used as an all-purpose
opening bid (artificial or natural) promising a minimum of
10 high card points."
It looks like you can go as low as 10 HCP for your 1C opening.
You just need to tell your opponents what you play.
1C. Alert. This shows 16+ if balanced or a hand with
judged to have equivalent playing strength.
or 16+ if balanced or if unbalanced, a hand that would be strong
enough to reverse or jump shift in standard.
Or whatever it is that you actually play.
I'm sure that those regularly playing precision will be able
to suggest a better explanation to give to your opps to
describe your 1C opening to inform them that you might have
fewer high card points if you have compensating playing
strength.
Reef Fish
>
> Earlier in the thread you said:
> "You can NOT open 1 Club, Strong, Artificial & Forcing in ACBLand
> unless you have at least 15 hcp or more. No exceptions!"
>
> An exception was pointed out to you, by someone who queried the
> ACBL's chief TD.
>
> Game Over, man.
The game is far from over. LOL
In that discussion, Larry pointed out the definition of a DEVIATION,
a TACTICAL bid, and how a 1 point deviation can be considered a
PSYCHIC bid, etc., etc., ...
I was reading Larry Cohen and Mike Becker´s BRIDGE WORLD article on
how they came from a 53 imp deficit in the last round against
Meckwell and Hamway, by first tying it for overtime, and then
winning the Vanderbilt by 2 imps on the very last board, their
biggest lead of the match.
That article is a GREAT one to read about bridge TACTICS, examples
of DEVIATIONS and other strategies that are clearly ALLOWED. As
Larry puts it, when you´re down 50 plus imps against world class
opponents, it is nearly impossible to win by playing normally!
On Board 50, Richie Schwartz opened a 10 count, passed Becker´s
forcing bid, prompting Mike to note screenmate Meckstroth that
Richie might have psyched, but QUOTE (he was unperturbed) ENDQUOTE.
At the end of the article, Cohen-Becker noted Nickell overcame
a 71-imp deficit with 16 boards to go to win the Spingold.
You can BET on it that there were plenty of DEVIATIONS that nobody
at that level would whine against their opponents, as the club
and sectional game players may call directions on 1 point deviations
to rule them psychic or some other ridiculous IMPROPER rulings.
That´s the way bridge IS played, and SHOULD be played -- as
exemplified in the Schwartz (Mike Becker, Richie Schwartz, David
Berkowitz, Larry Cohen, Peter Boyd, Steve Robinson) vs Nickell
(Dick Freeman, Nick Nickell, Bob Hamman, Paul Soloway, Jeff
Meckstroth, Eric Rodwell) match in the Vanderbilt Final Quarter.
Bob.
Chris Wiggins
16 (or 15) HCP, there is the question whether it is the right bridge
decision to do so. One way to figure that out is to look at hands and
calculate if you want to be in game opposite 8+ HCP. Since I cannot
do those calculations at the table, I decide using a rule adapted from
Jeff Reuben's old book, "The Secrets of Winning Bridge": if I can
construct a hand that partner would pass if I opened a suit and we
would make game, I will make the forcing 1C opening.
Using that rule . . .
Like Dwayne Hoffman, I would open 1C with:
AKT9x
AKT9x
x
xx
because a fit in the majors is probable (my old Frost book says 83.5%
probability of 3+ support for one of the five card suits) and if
partner also holds the right two queens, I want to be in game.
Clearly partner might pass 1S holding such a hand (especially if the
fit is in hearts).
Like Larry Lowell's former Precision partner, I would open 1C if I
held:
Axx
Jx
AKQxxxx
x
For 3NT to make, partner needs a diamond fit (probability 92.9%) plus
a stopper in clubs plus a partial stopper in diamonds, say:
xxx
Qxx
xxx
KQxx
Holding that, partner would probably respond to 1D, especially since
they strain to respond to my Precision 1D as it is 2+ long. The
problem is: if they do respond, I probably don't have a rebid that
expresses my stength. Since a perfect 7 HCP lets me make game, I
would open 1C (and wind up in a similar difficulty if opponents
preempt 3C).
But with the hand Larry Lowell posed as a hypothetical:
KQ
AKQxxxx
xx
xx
I would probably open 1H because to make game, partner is going to
have to hold enough points that he will respond to 1H. For 3NT, I
need for partner to hold a double stopper in both minors (with only a
single stopper, you won't be able to set up your spade trick). With
that much, partner will respond. Similarly, for 4H I need partner
to hold enough to hold my losers in the minors and spades to three
losers: possibly ace third of spades plus one of the minor aces, or
maybe both minor aces or one minor ace plus Kx in the other minor
(assuming their ace isn't sitting over my king). Again, if partner
holds that, they will respond.
Does this rule make sense? Do you use a different rule?
Reef Fish
> chrisw...@comcast.net (Chris Wiggins) wrote in message news:<c5d3a434.0408...@posting.google.com>...
> > I think you and your partner have gotten bad rulings. Through the
> > ACBL site, I have sent a message to the ACBL tournament directors
> > office to ask for definitive clarification.
>
> Since I sent my inquiry only 12 hours ago, I haven't received a reply
> yet, but would be surprised if I get anything substantially different
> from your understanding of what you received.
I was WRONG!
I got a reply today which was so shocking that I had to make SURE
that I read it correctly, and clarified myself the best I could to
make sure that there was no misunderstanding of my point.
I got a very prompt reply a short while ago.
Bruce Scott had already gotten this reply from Rick Beye
> > KQ
> > AKQxxxxx
> > void
> > xxx
> >
> > Beye said yes, I could open this hand 1C even though it has only 14
> > HCP. Beye said that the question is whether there is an intent to
> > deceive, and given this hand, that is clearly not my intent.
My reply from Mike Flader was a shocker (to me)!
My email reply to him should be self-explanatory. I may not be able
to participate in much of this discussion the next four weeks, but
I certainly would be MOST INTERESTED in the ACBL ruling and resolution
of this 1C opening issue.
======================================
Dear Mike,
At 04:58 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote:
Comments follow below.
Mike Flader
Thank you for your very prompt response. As I am about to embark on a
24 day cruise (day after tomorrow), we may not have the time to
further
clarify or resolve our differences of opinion in what you repeatedly
insisted that
"Because the intent of the opening is to keep the opponents out of the
bidding, not to describe a strong hand."
even though I repeated insisted that it was intended to describe a
VERY
strong hand (one cold for game or even slam without any help from
partner)!
To summarize:
MF> It's a psych, in my opinion since while the hand is very good is
MF> the long suit is trump, it will probably take no tricks against
MF> any other denomination.
RF> I want to clarify and make absolutely certain that you are
referring
RF> to the hand below, the only one I cited in my email, as one I
RF> assumed no one would consider a psych bid if opened 1C with a
RF> Precision Club:
S - H 2 - D AKQJ10987654 C 2
RF> But you seemed to be of the opinion that the above would indeed be
RF> considered a psych because "it will probably take no tricks
against
RF> any other denomination."
RF>
RF> Would you also consider that hand a psych if opened with a strong
2C
RF> (artificial and forcing) in Standard or 2/1?
MF> Yes. While it is true that you can make a game with hand such as
MF> this even if partner has nothing, it is also clear that the
opponents
MF> may be able to make something significant if their favorite suit
is
MF> trump. Thus, if opening 1C strong forcing and artificial or 2C
MF> strong forcing and artificial is designed to keep the
MF> opponents out of the bidding, the call is psychic in that it is a
MF> deliberated attempt to mislead the opponents. As such, it is
illegal.
I find this REASON particularly peculiar.
I open 1C forcing, you said I psyched to keep the opponents out of the
bidding. When was the last time you encountered a 1C bid that showed
strength and kept opponents out of bidding?
Should the hand be opened 1D at the risk of being passed by partner
when it's cold for 5D? Would a bid at any level higher than 1C make
it easier for opponents to enter?
MF> Opening 1C would seem to be an attempt to steal the hand from the
MF> opponents rather than an attempt to describe a strong game
forcing
MF> type of opener.
All of the hands I cited (only one shown to you) were of the type that
it is COLD for a game, or even a slam, with 10 or less HCP, e.g.,
S AKQ1098765432 H x D void C void
Why would that not be a "strong game forcing type of opener"?
MF> Because the intent of the opening is to keep the opponents out
MF> of the bidding, not to describe a strong hand.
You repeatedly used that faulty reason and faulty allegation of MY
intent,
in spite of my repeated explanation that it was very much INTENDED to
be
a bid to show strength, in fact one very much stronger than most hands
of 25 hcp!
The REASON for opening that hand with a Precision 1C is to enable
the opener to use ASKING bids in subsequent auction to pin-point
the presence or absence of the Heart Ace in partner's hand (in the
above),
or pinpoint whether partner has one or both of the Heart Ace or Club
Ace
in the hand cold for 5 Diamonds.
In other words, I am looking for a slam or grand slam if the
opportunity
arises after the 1C opening to explore the explicit absence or
presence
of specific Aces.
That could not be further from "intent to keep the opponents out of
the bidding" by creating the false impression of a strong hand! How
much stronger can a hand be that's cold for SLAM without any help from
partner?
08/05/2004 23:37 AST
The more pertinent part of my objection to your implied ACBL rule is
the following, expressed in this thread, in response to another
poster:
QUOTE <Reef Fish>
I am more concerned with one allegation (by Larry Lowell) that ACBL
does
NOT allow a Precision 1C opening with less than 15 HCPs.
If that is true, then the disallowed 1C opening hands may be those
that
are absolutely cold for a MINOR or MAJOR suit of 10 (or even less)
HCPs
that would allow the (Precision) 1C opener to launch into various
ASKING
bids, in the presence of a positive response, to look for a small or
grand slam, possibly in a strain that is NOT the suit that is cold for
game! This is particularly true of choosing a major over a minor (if
there's slam in both) or choosing a slam in NT over one in a major at
match points.
If the ACBL does not allow a Precision Club to be opened with less
than
15 HCP, it would indeed strip that system of some of its most powerful
features in slam bidding. THAT is why I wanted to see if someone
affiliated with the ACBL can settle the claim made about ACBL ruling
by Larry Lowell.
END QUOTE <Reef Fish>
Ill post both sides of our argument in the forum from which the
question came. I hope further discussion there and others may contact
Rick Baye, the chief TD of the ACBL to comment/rule on your "illegal"
and "psych" verdict as well as the reasons you gave as to why these
two hands are illegal to be opened 1C artificial, strong, and forcing;
or 2C (in Standard or 2/1):
S - H 2 - D AKQJ10987654 C 2
S AKQ1098765432 H x D void C void
Thanks again for your input which I must admit came as a total
surprise
to me, having followed ACBL and tournament bridge for decades.
-- Bob.
Dwayne Hoffman
pairs event:
Axx
Axx
x
KQJT98
I opened a club, landed in 3NT, and got someone to appeal it because
they thought it was a psyche!!!!
Happy to say, we kept our excellent score.
Larry Lowell
> "Bruce Scott" [snip] replied to Larry Lowell,
Thanks Bob, well said: "That's the way bridge IS played, and SHOULD be played ..."
Larry Lowell
USA
Larry Lowell
> 16 (or 15) HCP, there is the question whether it is the right bridge
> decision to do so. One way to figure that out is to look at hands and
> calculate if you want to be in game opposite 8+ HCP. Since I cannot
> do those calculations at the table, I decide using a rule adapted from
> Jeff Reuben's old book, "The Secrets of Winning Bridge": if I can
> construct a hand that partner would pass if I opened a suit and we
> would make game, I will make the forcing 1C opening.
>
> Using that rule . . .
>
> Like Dwayne Hoffman, I would open 1C with:
> AKT9x
> AKT9x
> x
> xx
> because a fit in the majors is probable (my old Frost book says 83.5%
> probability of 3+ support for one of the five card suits) and if
> partner also holds the right two queens, I want to be in game.
> Clearly partner might pass 1S holding such a hand (especially if the
> fit is in hearts).
Hmmm, and if partner has a semi-positive (K+K, K+Q) and a fit he will
raise to 3M (I assume the bidding goes 1C - 1D - 2S?) and you still
have 3.5 losers. I would open 1S and rebid 3H showing 5-losers.
Surely the bidding will NOT go 1S p p p. With major 2-suiters I want
to show both my suits and that the second suit is also 5-cards. You
cannot do that after 1C - 1D unless you play the rebid of 1M is a One
Round Force (which I do play with some Precision partners).
> Like Larry Lowell's former Precision partner, I would open 1C if I
> held:
> Axx
> Jx
> AKQxxxx
> x
> For 3NT to make, partner needs a diamond fit (probability 92.9%) plus
> a stopper in clubs plus a partial stopper in diamonds, say:
> xxx
> Qxx
> xxx
> KQxx
> Holding that, partner would probably respond to 1D, especially since
> they strain to respond to my Precision 1D as it is 2+ long. The
> problem is: if they do respond, I probably don't have a rebid that
> expresses my stength. Since a perfect 7 HCP lets me make game, I
> would open 1C (and wind up in a similar difficulty if opponents
> preempt 3C).
I agree, no game unless partner can freely bid after 1C - 1D - 2D.
Interesting, opening 1 club still allows for possible game over a
negative response with a maximum negative by partner of the 1 club
bidder.
> But with the hand Larry Lowell posed as a hypothetical:
> KQ
> AKQxxxx
> xx
> xx
> I would probably open 1H because to make game, partner is going to
> have to hold enough points that he will respond to 1H. For 3NT, I
> need for partner to hold a double stopper in both minors (with only a
> single stopper, you won't be able to set up your spade trick). With
> that much, partner will respond. Similarly, for 4H I need partner
> to hold enough to hold my losers in the minors and spades to three
> losers: possibly ace third of spades plus one of the minor aces, or
> maybe both minor aces or one minor ace plus Kx in the other minor
> (assuming their ace isn't sitting over my king). Again, if partner
> holds that, they will respond.
Yes, yes, yes - thank you.
> Does this rule make sense? Do you use a different rule?
Yes this is a reasoned approach and makes a lot of sense.
I use the old Schenken rule of (8)9 hcp AND 1.5 quick tricks for a
positive response: AA, AKxxx together, A,K,Q, KQ + Kx and if that
will allow game on most cases, I open 1 club (A&F & strong) unless it
is 2-suited without spades, and then I usually open other than 1 club.
Larry Lowell
Knoxville, TN, USA
Larry Lowell
[snip]
> Technically, 14-16 NTs can't have artificial and
> conventional calls because of the "15 hcp" threshold, but it's
> frequently allowed if the hand warrants.
[snip]
Dwayne, I do not know what you are referring to here.
Conventional calls are not allowed to opening NT bids that have:
"a lower limit below 10 hcp or a range of greater than 5 HCP ..."
The 15 HCP limit in ACBLand refers to:
6. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing
opening bids ... [Allowed - LL]
Larry Lowell
>]
> Larry Lowell
Follow Up: 9/15/04 from Mike Flader, ACBL rulings Bulletin author
"The ACBL General Convention Chart states it is legal to open 1C
artificial and forcing as long as the call guarantees at least 10 hcp.
Now, while it may be true that the hand above only contains 13 HCP [Ax
AKQxxxx xx xx - LPL], it seems clear that if a player choose[s] to
open 1C Precision, he is not attempting to psych the opponents, but
rather to describe a strong hand. Mr Oakie's comments are intended as
a general guideline, not gospel [deviation of more than a Q in
strength - LPL]. I can't imagine that anyone would object to an
opening bid of 1C if the hand in question had one more heart [4-losers
- LPL], and they should not object to the actual example either
[5-losers - LPL]."
This is consistent with Rick Beye's comments mentioned above by Chris
on a stronger hand [14 hcp & 4-losers].
I am pleased to have such confirmation (and will carry it in my
convention card holder).
Larry Lowell
Reef Fish
> > > Beye said yes, I could open this hand 1C even though it has only 14
> > > HCP. Beye said that the question is whether there is an intent to
> > > deceive, and given this hand, that is clearly not my intent.
> > >
> > > Chris Wiggins
> > The real question, I think: "What is a gross deviation (psych) of
> > opening 1 club artificial & forcing & strong" Is it 5-losers, is it 3
> > HCP from anounced strength. An answer or guideline is still needed
> > for TD ruling consistency. [snip
> >]
> > Larry Lowell
>
> Follow Up: 9/15/04 from Mike Flader, ACBL rulings Bulletin author
>
> "The ACBL General Convention Chart states it is legal to open 1C
> artificial and forcing as long as the call guarantees at least 10 hcp.
> Now, while it may be true that the hand above only contains 13 HCP [Ax
> AKQxxxx xx xx - LPL], it seems clear that if a player choose[s] to
> open 1C Precision, he is not attempting to psych the opponents, but
> rather to describe a strong hand. < ...> [5-losers ."
Mike Flader probably heard a few complaints about HIS opinion (which I
posted) and changed his tune for your round:
On a one-suited hand, cold for game, and CLEARLY appropriate for
a Precision 1C opening:
MF> It's a psych, in my opinion since while the hand is very good is
MF> the long suit is trump, it will probably take no tricks against
MF> any other denomination.
RF> Would you also consider that hand a psych if opened with a strong
RF> 2C (artificial and forcing) in Standard or 2/1?
MF> Yes. While it is true that you can make a game with hand such as
MF> this even if partner has nothing, it is also clear that the
MF> opponents may be able to make something significant if their
MF> favorite suit is trump.
Very peculiar logic.
Here's Mike Flader's "trump card" for his illogical statements,
HIS presumption/assumption that the 1C opener's INTENT was to
deceive.
MF> Thus, if opening 1C strong forcing and artificial or 2C
MF> strong forcing and artificial is designed to keep the
MF> opponents out of the bidding, the call is psychic in that it is a
MF> deliberated attempt to mislead the opponents. As such, it is
MF> illegal.
What a straw man Mike set up for his indefensible position!
How does Mike know so much about what the 1C or 2C opener's intent is?
I know MY intent would be to show playing strength, and hope to be able
to use asking bids later!
Here would be the BRIDGE PLAYER's questions to Mike Flader:
Should the hand be opened 1D at the risk of being passed by partner
when it's cold for 5D? Would a bid at any level higher than 1C make
it easier for opponents to enter? MUST it be opened with 5D and
forego any chance of a slam or grand slam on ace-asking features
that are available ONLY after a Precision 1C opening?
MF> Opening 1C would seem to be an attempt to steal the hand from the
MF> opponents rather than an attempt to describe a strong game
MF> forcing type of opener.
More mind-reading by Mike Flader. Why not open a Precision 1C?
MF> Because the intent of the opening is to keep the opponents out
MF> of the bidding, not to describe a strong hand.
> I am pleased to have such confirmation (and will carry it in my
> convention card holder).
>
> Larry Lowell
I suggest you carry the rest of THIS post because (a) Mike Flader
seems to be speaking from both sides of his mouth, and (b) there
does not seem to be any consistent position by ACBL on the issue.
-- Bob.