Minimum opening hand? Minimum Two Clubs?

[James Dow Allen]

I've started playing at BridgeBase; yesterday I partnered with an "Expert"
from USA. I was not impressed.
If it matters, we're playing "Casual" IMPS; non-vs-vul on both hands.

Partner held
QJx AKQTxxx K Ax
and opened 1H in second seat.
I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.
I call it a 9-trick hand. But partner opened 1H, his LHO overcalled
2D, Pass-Pass back to him. What now?
I think he should make up for his 1st-round underbid by bidding 4H
now. In fact he bid just 2H. (I suppose he was trying to "operate"
but isn't that hugely insolent when playing with a new partner?)

Another hand was more interesting. He held
AKQ65
KQ853
A
53

I dealt and opened 1C with
T9
AJ9
764
AQT86
Would rgb'ers open this hand? Some open most 12-pt hands;
others open only "good 12s", but I might open this hand
even if partner expects a good 12. The 4-3-2-1 count
is only an approximation to the honor values, and in particular
undervalues Aces and Tens. Given this and the nice club
suit, I think opening is correct even for players
who pass with "mediocre 12s."

I have a very simple rule about Jump shifts, whether by
responder or opener. The meaning is "I'm not looking
for game; I'm looking for slam."
If the jump-shifter signs off in 4 of a major, his partner
should assume he has values to bid 5.
Obviously, partner should jump to 2S here
with his 18 count; then bid hearts twice.
Instead he bid 1S; his vulnerable LHO pre-empted 3D.
This was passed back to partner who bid 6H.
KD was led.

What is the proper play? One might try the club
finesse immediately to learn whether we can afford
a spade loser, but this is troublesome.
Instead I think he should just play hearts and spades
in some order.
As it happens, LHO has xxx T Jx KQxxxxx.
Spades split 3-3 AND the Jack is onside. Yet my
"expert" partner found a way to go down.

He then blamed ME. My opening was unsound he said;
he told me to "learn the rule of 20."
I don't believe in such facile rules.

(There is a rule I DO use: The "Rule of 15" (HCP plus spades)
for opening in 4th seat.

James

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

James Dow Allen wrote:

> Another hand was more interesting. He held
> AKQ65
> KQ853
> A
> 53
>
> I dealt and opened 1C with
> T9
> AJ9
> 764
> AQT86
> Would rgb'ers open this hand?

I'm not a strong player. I like to have 12 hp to open, 11 hp with a 5
card major and 10 hp with both. I'd call your hand borderline, but I
wouldn't blame partner for opening. There are two 10's and two 9's.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[sandyba...@gmail.com]

Hand #1: I would rebid 4H. I don't like opening 2C with this hand. Partner will expect a different hand.

Hand #2: I don't like opening 1C with such short values and short majors. Partner, lacking a club fit, should bid 1S, since he has to consider that the hand may not fit well, and he needs room to explore. He wants to hear your planned rebid. He can force later.

[johnson]

The 'skill level' that most BBO players assign themselves
rarely correspond to reality. Most genuine experts that
I know put 'private'.

I would open both the hands you cite at the one level
playing with a random partner.

It isn't a good idea for responder to jump-shift with a
two-suiter unless one of the suits is partner's opening suit.

Johnson

[James Dow Allen]

Permission to revise and extend my remarks?

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 1:25:51 AM UTC+7, James Dow Allen wrote:
> Partner held
> QJx AKQTxxx K Ax
> and opened 1H in second seat.
> I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
> games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
> hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.

> I call it a 9-trick hand....

I neglected to mention a key point.
Even if you treat the singleton K as completely worthless,
the 3 HCP are important to the decision BECAUSE the high point-count
increases the risk that the hand will pass out at 1H.
(Either K in partner makes game likely.)

I think opening 2C, followed by minimum bids of hearts, hearts and hearts
describes the hand well.

> I dealt and opened 1C with
> T9 AJ9 764 AQT86

The precise threshold for a minimum 1-bid is a matter of style.
I know my minimum is slightly lower than some others'.
50+ years ago I played in a regional match-point tournament with
an expert. I'd never played with him before though we hung
out in the same circle of experts. The ONLY comment he
made as we were preparing our simple convention cards was
"Open all 12s and most 11s." That comment stuck with me,
though I still pass most 11s at IMPs.

And the 4321 system DOES undervalue Aces considerably.

The bidding system we and most of our friends
played was almost identical to SAYC, despite the 50+ year gap.
One difference was that we played 3NT and Singleton Swiss
as the major-suit game raises. That was in Northern California;
Jacoby 2NT was more of a Southern California thing IIRC.

James

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Concerning the first hand: I do not believe the 2H rebid is a serious underbid. As it would have. been if the opponents had been silent and you had responded.

Opener's rebid opposite a passing partner must allow for the possibility of a busted dummy.

[Will in New Haven]

On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 2:25:51 PM UTC-4, James Dow Allen wrote:

> I've started playing at BridgeBase; yesterday I partnered with an "Expert"
> from USA. I was not impressed.

People rate themselves expert so that others would want to play with them. Then they proceed to destroy those illusions immediately.

> If it matters, we're playing "Casual" IMPS; non-vs-vul on both hands.
>
> Partner held
> QJx AKQTxxx K Ax
> and opened 1H in second seat.
> I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
> games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
> hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.
> I call it a 9-trick hand.

I think opening 2C with that hand is, to put it mildly, insane

But partner opened 1H, his LHO overcalled
> 2D, Pass-Pass back to him. What now?
> I think he should make up for his 1st-round underbid by bidding 4H
> now. In fact he bid just 2H. (I suppose he was trying to "operate"
> but isn't that hugely insolent when playing with a new partner?)

Of course, 4H is obviously making in retrospect. It wouldn't be a silly bid

But my question is "What was your hand?


.

>
> Another hand was more interesting. He held
> AKQ65
> KQ853
> A
> 53
>
> I dealt and opened 1C with
> T9
> AJ9
> 764
> AQT86
> Would rgb'ers open this hand? Some open most 12-pt hands;
> others open only "good 12s", but I might open this hand
> even if partner expects a good 12. The 4-3-2-1 count
> is only an approximation to the honor values, and in particular
> undervalues Aces and Tens. Given this and the nice club
> suit, I think opening is correct even for players
> who pass with "mediocre 12s."

I would open it in 90% of the partnerships I have had. In most of those, I would open 1NT

>
> I have a very simple rule about Jump shifts, whether by
> responder or opener. The meaning is "I'm not looking
> for game; I'm looking for slam."
> If the jump-shifter signs off in 4 of a major, his partner
> should assume he has values to bid 5.
> Obviously, partner should jump to 2S here
> with his 18 count;

Except for in a bridge game. Crowding your own bidding room with a two-suited hand is not reasonable.

then bid hearts twice.
> Instead he bid 1S; his vulnerable LHO pre-empted 3D.
> This was passed back to partner who bid 6H.
> KD was led.

He probably didn't trust a random partner not to pass a forcing 3H. Lots of that with self-proclaimed experts.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <3f955ec0-fb03-4653...@googlegroups.com>,
Will in New Haven <willinne...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

>> Partner held
>> QJx AKQTxxx K Ax
>> and opened 1H in second seat.
>> I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
>> games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
>> hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.
>> I call it a 9-trick hand.
>
>I think opening 2C with that hand is, to put it mildly, insane

I think the takeaway here is that if you want to open this hand with a
forcing bid (and you should), you need to be playing Precision (which I do
whenever possible).

However, digressing somewhat, the problem with Precision is when you do get
an actual full-strength SA 2 bid. It is often hard to catch up after
opening 1C.

--
The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4
lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain
in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL:
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[John Hall]

In message <ua0ikm$2rc91$1...@news.xmission.com>, Kenny McCormack
<gaz...@shell.xmission.com> writes

>In article <3f955ec0-fb03-4653...@googlegroups.com>,
>Will in New Haven <willinne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...
>>> Partner held
>>> QJx AKQTxxx K Ax
>>> and opened 1H in second seat.
>>> I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
>>> games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
>>> hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.
>>> I call it a 9-trick hand.
>>
>>I think opening 2C with that hand is, to put it mildly, insane

Applying the losing trick count, it's only a 4 loser hand, so I think
it's reasonable.

>
>I think the takeaway here is that if you want to open this hand with a
>forcing bid (and you should), you need to be playing Precision (which I do
>whenever possible).

An old-fashioned Acol Two-bid would have been perfect, but even most
Acol pairs don't play them these days.

>
>However, digressing somewhat, the problem with Precision is when you do get
>an actual full-strength SA 2 bid. It is often hard to catch up after
>opening 1C.
>

Especially if you get vigorous opposition bidding, I imagine.
--
John Hall "[It was] so steep that at intervals the street broke into steps,
like a person breaking into giggles or hiccups, and then resumed
its sober climb, until it had another fit of steps."
Ursula K Le Guin "The Beginning Place"

[Fred.]

On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 2:25:51 PM UTC-4, James Dow Allen wrote:

> I've started playing at BridgeBase; yesterday I partnered with an "Expert"
> from USA. I was not impressed.

Self-Rated

> If it matters, we're playing "Casual" IMPS; non-vs-vul on both hands.
>
> Partner held

--QJx AKQTxxx K Ax

> and opened 1H in second seat.

I think that 1H is reasonable. Opener needs 2 cover cards or the
specifically the spade king to make 4H. Partner will expect at
least 4 quick tricks from me, and with an ace and king should be
looking for slam.

> I need a very good hand to open Two Clubs (and occasionally miss
> games for that reason), but I would open 2C with this
> hand despite that it has only 16 HCP if the singleton K is ignored.
> I call it a 9-trick hand. But partner opened 1H, his LHO overcalled
> 2D, Pass-Pass back to him. What now?
> I think he should make up for his 1st-round underbid by bidding 4H
> now. In fact he bid just 2H. (I suppose he was trying to "operate"
> but isn't that hugely insolent when playing with a new partner?)

I think at IMPs with my usual partner, I would reopen 3S, which would
(1) invite a raise 2 covers, and (2) might make if responder comes up
empty. At match points, I might, on the theory that there are lots of
ways to mess up on a hand like this, I might settle for the almost sure
plus score.

>
> Another hand was more interesting. He held
> AKQ65
> KQ853
> A
> 53
>
> I dealt and opened 1C with

--T9
-- AJ9
-- 764
-- AQT86

> Would rgb'ers open this hand? Some open most 12-pt hands;
> others open only "good 12s", but I might open this hand
> even if partner expects a good 12. The 4-3-2-1 count
> is only an approximation to the honor values, and in particular
> undervalues Aces and Tens. Given this and the nice club
> suit, I think opening is correct even for players
> who pass with "mediocre 12s."

Playing a sound style I would want a J more to open
the hand 1C. Switch the black suits on this hand and
I would open 1S even playing a sound style. Playing a
truly light style I would open the actual hand 1c even
replacing with a low heart in place of jack. Not having
agreed on a style, partner was out of line complaining
about your bidding.

> I have a very simple rule about Jump shifts, whether by
> responder or opener. The meaning is "I'm not looking
> for game; I'm looking for slam."

I like strong jump shifts to follow the style of Edgar Kaplan:
1) the hand can make a slam with normal breaks and no
finesses facing just the right minimum opening hand.
2) the hand will play in opener's suit, the jump suit, or
in no-trump.
This greatly simplifies bidding after the jump shift
So, like your partner, I would call 1S planning to jump
shift on the second round, which promises a strong
2-suiter conforming to condition 1) above.

> If the jump-shifter signs off in 4 of a major, his partner
> should assume he has values to bid 5.
> Obviously, partner should jump to 2S here
> with his 18 count; then bid hearts twice.
> Instead he bid 1S; his vulnerable LHO pre-empted 3D.

> This was passed back to partner who bid 6H.
> KD was led.
>
> What is the proper play? One might try the club
> finesse immediately to learn whether we can afford
> a spade loser, but this is troublesome.
> Instead I think he should just play hearts and spades
> in some order.
> As it happens, LHO has xxx T Jx KQxxxxx.
> Spades split 3-3 AND the Jack is onside. Yet my
> "expert" partner found a way to go down.
>
> He then blamed ME. My opening was unsound he said;

--he told me to "learn the rule of 20."

> I don't believe in such facile rules.
>

By the way, your partner's slam blast was not
unreasonable. Had you held

JT
AJ9
764
AJ432,

a subminimum by most people's standards, your side
would have held a slam which makes against
everything but a 5-0 major suit break or screwed up
dummy play. It's a worse hand than the one you
opened and does not meet the Rule of 20 either. Would
your partner have told you "Learn the rule of 19."? Or "the
rule of "18", discounting the poorly guarded jack.