Is this a matter of style

[Mark]

Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points

You deal and open 1D
You LHO P RHO
1D 1H 1S P
?

Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s?

Spoiler...






The hand in question was

A
Q5
KJ8752
A9xx

I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s.
However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C’s the be bid later.

M.

[sbt]

In article <13ce0c3f-3438-4c2b...@googlegroups.com>,

It's primarily a matter of partnership agreement; however, _most_
experts I know rebid the 6-bagger with a minimum or with a slightly
above-minimum hand with a weak 4-bagger and a good 6-bagger. On the
given hand, the clubs are okay. the diamonds aren't that great, and the
hand is a "good minimum", so the 2C rebid would be the choice of most.
Change the hand to A, Jx, AKxxxx, Q98x and 2D would be the popular
choice.

--
Spenser

[dake50]

A
Q5
KJ8752
A9xx
I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s.

*** With H:Qx wasted and misfit for partner, this is a bad minimum.
*** Rebid 2D. Don't suggest any forward move like 2C.

[vsp...@hotmail.com]

I'm rebidding 2D. Don't like the singleton spade.

[france...@googlemail.com]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 2:27:22 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points You deal and open 1D You LHO P RHO 1D 1H 1S P ? Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s? Spoiler... The hand in question was A Q5 KJ8752 A9xx I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s. However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C’s the be bid later. M.

2C does not immediately show a stronger or weaker hand than 2D. If you were, say, 2=2=5=4 or 2=1=5=5 you bid 2C whatever strength you had. The change of suit does not show extra values.

Where it may make a difference is on the later auction. Many people play that bidding 2C and then rebidding diamonds again to show 6 shows a stronger hand than rebidding diamonds and then bidding clubs later. So, for example (and forgetting the overcall for the time being) it is common to agree that

1D - 1S
2C - 2NT
3D

is forcing, while

1D - 1S
2D - 2NT
3C

is weak (although both show 6 diamonds and 4 clubs)

On the hand you gave, I would bid 2C because:
- If partner raises to 3C or gives preference to 2D you are happy to play there
- If partner bids 2NT you will bid 3NT
- If partner bids 3NT you will pass
- If partner passes 2C on 1-4 you are in the right contract, with 1-3 it is unclear.

There is a school of thought, more common in the US, which opens 1D with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs, then rebids 2C. Personally I don't like this, but if I were playing this style I would rebid 2D as partner will pass 2C with 3-3 or 2-3 in the minors which would not be a success.

[John Hall]

In article <13ce0c3f-3438-4c2b...@googlegroups.com>,

Mark <mark.p...@gmail.com> writes:
>Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a
>6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points
>
>You deal and open 1D
>You LHO P RHO
>1D 1H 1S P
>?
>
>Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s?

For me, it would all depend on suit quality. AKJxxx / Qxxx I'd rebid 2D.
AJxxxx / KQxx I think I'd rebid 2C.

>
>Spoiler...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The hand in question was
>
>A
>Q5
>KJ8752
>A9xx

On that hand, for me it's close, but I think I'd rebid 2C.

>
>I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows
>a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s.

I don't think that's true in traditional Acol, though even so I prefer
2C. I'd be a little tempted to rebid a rather "off-centre" 1NT to get
the values across, if it would show 15-16 on your methods, but I think
I'd resist the temptation.

>However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing
>the C’s the be bid later.

Who says there's going to /be/ a later?

If partner has something like

KQxx
Jxx
x
Jxxxx

then he'll have no choice but to pass 2D, though no doubt fearing the
worst. Even if he has KQxxx and a heart or club less, he will almost
certainly have to pass 2D.
--
John Hall

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde

[Co Wiersma]

Op 25-1-2013 15:27, Mark schreef:

> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points
>
> You deal and open 1D
> You LHO P RHO
> 1D 1H 1S P
> ?
>

> Do you prefer to rebid the D�s or show shape by bidding C�s?

>
> Spoiler...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The hand in question was
>
> A
> Q5
> KJ8752
> A9xx
>

> I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D�s.
> However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C�s the be bid later.
>
> M.
>

I always assumed that 2D and 2C has the same minimum

[richlp]

Please. I'm not trying to be snippy. For those who rebid 2C ... what
is your plan when partner rebids 2S?

[Co Wiersma]

Op 25-1-2013 21:14, richlp schreef:

> On Jan 25, 6:27 am, Mark <mark.p.she...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points
>>
>> You deal and open 1D
>> You LHO P RHO
>> 1D 1H 1S P
>> ?
>>

>> Do you prefer to rebid the D�s or show shape by bidding C�s?

>>
>> Spoiler...
>>
>> The hand in question was
>>
>> A
>> Q5
>> KJ8752
>> A9xx
>>

>> I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D�s.
>> However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C�s the be bid later.

>>
>> M.
>
> Please. I'm not trying to be snippy. For those who rebid 2C ... what
> is your plan when partner rebids 2S?
>

I pass, what else?

Co Wiersma

[Dave Flower]

On Friday, 25 January 2013 20:14:30 UTC, richlp wrote:
> On Jan 25, 6:27 am, Mark <mark.p.she...@gmail.com> wrote: > Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points > > You deal and open 1D > You     LHO     P       RHO > 1D      1H      1S      P > ? > > Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s? > > Spoiler... > > The hand in question was > > A > Q5 > KJ8752 > A9xx > > I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s. > However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C’s the be bid later. > > M. Please. I'm not trying to be snippy. For those who rebid 2C ... what is your plan when partner rebids 2S?

First Choice: Pass
Secopnd choice: Pass

For pass to be wrong, firstly there must be a better contract, and secondly you must be able to reach that contract

If you suspect that you are in the frying pan, think twice about jumping

Dave Flower

[John Hall]

In article
<9fd98295-5ec1-4060...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>,

Pass, without a second thought.

[John Hall]

In article <gBQvJMCr...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>,

John Hall <nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes:
>I'd be a little tempted to rebid a rather "off-centre" 1NT to get
>the values across, if it would show 15-16 on your methods, but I think
>I'd resist the temptation.

Oops! I'd somehow counted my HCP as 16 rather than the 14 I actually
have!

[HoneyMonster]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:31:43 +0100, Co Wiersma wrote:

> Op 25-1-2013 21:14, richlp schreef:
>> On Jan 25, 6:27 am, Mark <mark.p.she...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C
>>> hand with 10-15(ish) points
>>>
>>> You deal and open 1D You LHO P RHO 1D 1H 1S
>>> P ?
>>>

>>> Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s?

>>>
>>> Spoiler...
>>>
>>> The hand in question was
>>>
>>> A
>>> Q5 KJ8752 A9xx
>>>
>>> I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a

>>> slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s.

>>> However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the

>>> C’s the be bid later.

>>>
>>> M.
>>
>> Please. I'm not trying to be snippy. For those who rebid 2C ... what
>> is your plan when partner rebids 2S?
>>
>>
> I pass, what else?

+1 for the obvious pass. WTP?

[sbt]

In article
<9fd98295-5ec1-4060...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>,

Pass, wtp?

--
Dennis Cohen

[David Stevenson]

richlp wrote

Pass. That's the easiest question of all.

--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Mbl: +44 7778 409 955
<webj...@gmail.com> EBL TD Tel: +44 151 677 7412
bluejak666 on Skype Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm

[Paul Hightower]

"Mark" <mark.p...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ce0c3f-3438-4c2b...@googlegroups.com...

Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand
with 10-15(ish) points

You deal and open 1D
You LHO P RHO
1D 1H 1S P
?

Do you prefer to rebid the D�s or show shape by bidding C�s?

---------------------------------------------------------------
I'd prefer to limit the hand quickly by rebidding the diamonds. Odds are we
do have a diamond fit and do not have a club fit; and if we have neither
making the long suit trumps is usually best.

[Paul Hightower]

"Mark" <mark.p...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ce0c3f-3438-4c2b...@googlegroups.com...

Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C hand
with 10-15(ish) points

You deal and open 1D
You LHO P RHO
1D 1H 1S P
?

Do you prefer to rebid the D�s or show shape by bidding C�s?

A
Q5
KJ8752
A9xx

-----------------------------------------------------------------
2D for me -- that "poison Queen" in the enemy suit is a liability, not an
asset -- when you have their card, guess what? They have one of yours.
(Doesn't apply if partner bids notrump.) Flip the major suit honors:
Q Ax KJxxxx Axxx and I like the hand a lot better; I'm not sure where the
border between 2C and 2D ought to be but the revised hand is either a
maximum 2D or minimum 2C rebid.

[axm...@hotmail.com]

Apologies in advance for my limited acol experience.

How to put this- the best of bidding methods works well about 40% of
the time which translated means that outcomes are heavily couched in
judgment. For instance, when a method calls for opener to be more
robust to rebid a new suit minimally than the minimum promised for his
opening call then his method has closer to 25% efficacy.

Say with the given hand, if your partnership chooses one particular
fork [as in 2D] it might be termed a matter of style. While if the
partnership method is for opener to choose between the second suit
then it might be termed judgment. And judgment is a matter of skill.

For instance, to me the rebidding my suit or raising partner
communicates signoff- my honors are used up; but changing suits so as
to leave room to settle in an old suit does not promise additional
strength, yet does not deny it either. Thus changing suits suggests
fewer cards ‘available’ to support partner until further notice while
maximizing partnership flexibility in finding an appropriate strain.
Taking it further, rebidding 2D while suggesting not enough pieces to
raise spades doesn’t deny tolerance.

Keeping in mind that your otherwise biggest asset [partner’s cards] so
far is not fitting well [and thus the partnership value of the hand
has decreased], the way to improve the probabilities are more likely
to improve to find a fit by mentioning clubs- it being a matter of
judgment to go ‘against the probabilities’

To close I think that a bidding method that requires additional
strength to rebid 2C is not very intelligent; and the notion that
clubs can be mentioned later has dubious expectations seeing as how
responder necessarily first will have to show significant extra
strength which… while he might, he still might not.

regards

[David Stevenson]

wrote

>On Friday, January 25, 2013 2:27:22 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
>> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a
>>6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points You deal and open 1D You LHO P RHO
>>1D 1H 1S P ? Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding
>>C’s? Spoiler... The hand in question was A Q5 KJ8752 A9xx I rebid 2C
>>as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a slightly
>>stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s. However, partner thinks
>>that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C’s the be bid later. M.
>
>2C does not immediately show a stronger or weaker hand than 2D. If you
>were, say, 2=2=5=4 or 2=1=5=5 you bid 2C whatever strength you had. The
>change of suit does not show extra values.
>
>Where it may make a difference is on the later auction. Many people
>play that bidding 2C and then rebidding diamonds again to show 6 shows
>a stronger hand than rebidding diamonds and then bidding clubs later.
>So, for example (and forgetting the overcall for the time being) it is
>common to agree that
>
>1D - 1S
>2C - 2NT
>3D
>
>is forcing, while
>
>1D - 1S
>2D - 2NT
>3C
>
>is weak (although both show 6 diamonds and 4 clubs)

While sensible, I have never played this, but may do so from now. It
is made more sensible in my methods by ht efact that I play

1D - 1S -
2C

as forcing, which means responder has difficulties with weak 5=4=1=3
hands and the like.

But one further question: does this apply in the majors? Playing
traditional Acol 2/1s so they show good 8+, what should you rebid after

1H - 1S -
?

with six spades and four hearts? Do you think the problem of missing a
fitting 4H means you should rebid 2H even on a minimum? Or does the
same approach apply?

[David Stevenson]

David Stevenson wrote

Oh boy: proof-reading getting worse and worse! Let's try again:

While sensible, I have never played this, but may do so from now. It

is made more sensible in my methods by the fact that I play

1D - 1S -
2C

as forcing, which means responder has difficulties with weak 5=4=1=3
hands and the like.

But one further question: does this apply in the majors? Playing
traditional Acol 2/1s so they show good 8+, what should you rebid after

1S - 2C -

[france...@googlemail.com]

Playing traditional Acol 2/1s so they show good 8+, what should you rebid after 1S - 2C - ? with six spades and four hearts? Do you think the problem of missing a fitting 4H means you should rebid 2H even on a minimum? Or does the same approach apply?

Personally, I think you should always rebid your heart suit.
I think that's even more important after 1S - 1NT when partner might have a weak hand with 6 (or more) hearts. However, I have seen good players (on vugraph) rebidding their spades here on the same principle. You pays your money...

[Mark]

This is another reason that, as in the original sequence, P could have a D misfit and at least we end up in the "Best" minor.

Talking about this with my regular p, we also came up with this sequence.

You LHO P RHO
1D 1H 1S P

2C X 3C (*)

Is 3C forcing, or just obstructive, and what about the same question without the X.

For me, they are both obstructive (with or without the X)

M.

[judyo...@gmail.com]

Without the double, what call do you make with 9 hcp and 4 clubs?

Carl

[france...@googlemail.com]

On Monday, January 28, 2013 5:28:17 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > >Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a > > >6D/4C hand with 10-15(ish) points > > > > > >You deal and open 1D > > >You LHO P RHO > > >1D 1H 1S P > > >? > > > > > >Do you prefer to rebid the D’s or show shape by bidding C’s? > > > > For me, it would all depend on suit quality. AKJxxx / Qxxx I'd rebid 2D. > > AJxxxx / KQxx I think I'd rebid 2C. > > > > > > > >Spoiler... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The hand in question was > > > > > >A > > >Q5 > > >KJ8752 > > >A9xx > > > > On that hand, for me it's close, but I think I'd rebid 2C. > > > > > >I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows > > >a slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D’s. > > > > I don't think that's true in traditional Acol, though even so I prefer > > 2C. I'd be a little tempted to rebid a rather "off-centre" 1NT to get > > the values across, if it would show 15-16 on your methods, but I think > > I'd resist the temptation. > > > > >However, partner thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing > > >the C’s the be bid later. > > > > Who says there's going to /be/ a later? > > > > If partner has something like > > > > KQxx > > Jxx > > x > > Jxxxx > > > > then he'll have no choice but to pass 2D, though no doubt fearing the > > worst. Even if he has KQxxx and a heart or club less, he will almost > > certainly have to pass 2D. > > -- > > John Hall > > > > "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." > > Oscar Wilde This is another reason that, as in the original sequence, P could have a D misfit and at least we end up in the "Best" minor. Talking about this with my regular p, we also came up with this sequence. You LHO P RHO 1D 1H 1S P 2C X 3C (*) Is 3C forcing, or just obstructive, and what about the same question without the X. For me, they are both obstructive (with or without the X) M.

Neither forcing nor obstructive but constructive i.e. about 8-11 HCP with 4 clubs (8 may not be enough, 11 may to too many depending on what the hand looks like).

[tussock]

Mark wrote:

> Playing a fairly basic system (in our case Acol), you are have a 6D/4C
> hand with 10-15(ish) points
>
> You deal and open 1D
> You LHO P RHO
> 1D 1H 1S P
> ?
>

> Do you prefer to rebid the D?s or show shape by bidding C?s?

So partner has shown 5+ spades (has X available for 4). By dodging 2S
you deny 3-card support, or even a useful 2-card. 1N/2N is there for
stronger hands with heart cover, 2H for stronger hands without.
That leaves 2C for 4+ clubs with 5+ diamonds, 2D for preferring Diamonds
to Spades on a misfit (1462 or so).

Plus 3C for a long 2-suiter, 3D for 7+, 3H choice of game, ....

> Spoiler...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The hand in question was
>
> A
> Q5
> KJ8752
> A9xx
>
> I rebid 2C as I have always assumed that the change of suit shows a

> slightly stronger hand than just rebidding the D?s. However, partner
> thinks that 2D may be the better bid, allowing the C?s the be bid later.

It's Acol, you never skip a biddable suit. Partner will prefer diamonds
with something like a weak 5422, only bid spades again on a good 6-card or
better, and might find a good 3NT once you show your club suit.

--
tussock