Second round carding when playing upside-down count
Andy Bowles
default carding method on the second round of a suit in which you have
played an honour on the first round?
For example, suppose that partner led a suit and you played the queen. On
the next round of the suit, what would be the normal card from original
holdings of:
Q62
Q642
Q7642
Obviously, in a serious partnership you would have discussed this, but in
online games especially it's common for the entire discussion of carding
methods to consist of "udca".
Also, does anyone think that the answer to this question varies from country
to country?
Andy Bowles
Barry Margolin
"Andy Bowles" <andy....@virgin.net> wrote:
> When playing upside-down count (also called reverse count), what is the
> default carding method on the second round of a suit in which you have
> played an honour on the first round?
>
> For example, suppose that partner led a suit and you played the queen. On
> the next round of the suit, what would be the normal card from original
> holdings of:
>
> Q62
> Q642
> Q7642
>
> Obviously, in a serious partnership you would have discussed this, but in
> online games especially it's common for the entire discussion of carding
> methods to consist of "udca".
I think most people play that when you give count you give "present
count". So if you've already played the Queen, and are later following
suit, you would play 2, 6, and 2 from the above holdings.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
Dannysprung
>count". So if you've already played the Queen, and are later following
>suit, you would play 2, 6, and 2 from the above holdings.
I continue upside when giving present count, but this is far from standard.
Danny
John Schuler
Dannysprung wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean...
I agree with Barry, BTW.
Raija
"Barry Margolin" <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:barmar-D78406....@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
I like to play original count, and I also thought original count is more
prevalent in pickup partnerships than present count, regardless whether
signaling method is UDCA or standard. So I would play 6, 2, 7.
Raija
Peter Koch Larsen
"Barry Margolin" <bar...@alum.mit.edu> skrev i en meddelelse
news:barmar-D78406....@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
I disagree. All I have played with have given original count, thus playing
the 6, 2 and 7. This also is standard advice in all written material I've
seen.
When playing old-fashioned carding, the agreement might very well be the
reverse. In both cases this will automatically let you return the correct
card from e.g. KTx when partner has led the suit.
/Peter
Michael Kopera
If your only agreement is upside down count, I think that means that
in any situation that you are giving count, it is upside down. I would
assume present count is therefore upside down (although I prefer to
agree to play present count right side up :)
Mike Kopera
Bridge is so great because it is intellectually challenging and yet totally meaningless. Geoffry Rees - NY Times 04/05/95
Michael Kopera
Original count is a new one for me. I've only seen present count in
the USA. What written material are you referring to?
Jameson Cole
inconclusive. Here is just one posting (not mine):
Quoting from my favourite reference on this topic (Defensive Signals by
Marshall Miles):
Upside down signals only apply the first time the suit is played. Suppose
partner leads a heart and you hold A852. You win the ace and, if you return
the suit, you should lead the deuce. You would also return the deuce from
A86542. The basic philosophy is to treat four and six card suits the same
way, just as you treat three and five card suits the same way.
Suppose you win the ace but shift to another suit. The next time the heart
suit is played, you should play the deuce - the same card you wouild lead.
This is called "present count." With an odd number of cards left, you play
your lowest card.
Suppose partner leads low from K10xxx, dummy has two small, you have AJx or
AQx. If you win the ace and return your small card or follow suit later with
your low card, you will block the suit. So, the correct play is your
remaining honor. This is standard present count, as distinguished from
upside down present count. It is not practical to play upside down present
count.
--
Cheers, Jameson
"Michael Kopera" <miko...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:414fac4a...@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
Gordon Rainsford
I agree with this, and would have expected it of others until I'd read
the responses to this thread. It's what I always do in pickup
partnerships on the net, and I've never had anyone comment about it to
me.
--
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
Gordon Rainsford
> There's a lengthy discussion of this in the Bridge Base forum which is
> inconclusive. Here is just one posting (not mine):
>
> Quoting from my favourite reference on this topic (Defensive Signals by
> Marshall Miles):
>
> Upside down signals only apply the first time the suit is played. Suppose
> partner leads a heart and you hold A852. You win the ace and, if you return
> the suit, you should lead the deuce. You would also return the deuce from
> A86542. The basic philosophy is to treat four and six card suits the same
> way, just as you treat three and five card suits the same way.
>
> Suppose you win the ace but shift to another suit. The next time the heart
> suit is played, you should play the deuce - the same card you wouild lead.
> This is called "present count." With an odd number of cards left, you play
> your lowest card.
>
> Suppose partner leads low from K10xxx, dummy has two small, you have AJx or
> AQx. If you win the ace and return your small card or follow suit later with
> your low card, you will block the suit. So, the correct play is your
> remaining honor. This is standard present count, as distinguished from
> upside down present count. It is not practical to play upside down present
> count.
This doesn't seem to be entirely to the point, since it's partly talking
about which card to *lead*, rather than signalling or discarding, though
he does seem to be suggesting present standard count (or original
upside-down count).
Peter Koch Larsen
"Michael Kopera" <miko...@nyc.rr.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:414fac4a...@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
All the scandinavian litterature I've read. The only nonscandinavian
litterature on defense I have read has dealt with old-fashioned carding.
/Peter
Gordon Rainsford
Isn't it common in Scandinavia to play standard count and reverse
attitude? (Or is it the other way around?)
Peter Koch Larsen
"Gordon Rainsford" <grscre...@yahoo.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1gkgofx.fltk8gy417hjN%grscre...@yahoo.co.uk...
[snip]
> Isn't it common in Scandinavia to play standard count and reverse
> attitude? (Or is it the other way around?)
No - i believe it is play reverse count (low from doubleton) and reverse
attitude (called Malmoe (swedish city) in denmark.
vida
> I like to play original count, and I also thought original count is more
> prevalent in pickup partnerships than present count, regardless whether
> signaling method is UDCA or standard. So I would play 6, 2, 7.
> Raija
Hmm, most of my play these days takes place on OKbridge, where I often
play w/ good-according-to-their-lehamns pick-ups. I don't think I've
ever got (this, when I pay attention) original count instead of
present when playing udca, nor standard.
-Facun (vida on OKb)
Andrew Gumperz
> When playing upside-down count (also called reverse count), what is the
> default carding method on the second round of a suit in which you have
> played an honour on the first round?
>
> For example, suppose that partner led a suit and you played the queen. On
> the next round of the suit, what would be the normal card from original
> holdings of:
>
> Q62
> Q642
> Q7642
>
> Obviously, in a serious partnership you would have discussed this, but in
> online games especially it's common for the entire discussion of carding
> methods to consist of "udca".
It is a matter of agreement rarely discussed. In any partnership where
I can discuss it, my current count signals are standard (which I
believe is better than upside-down count throughout the hand). So I
would play 6, 2 and 7 from the above holdings.
However, the majority of players use upside down signals to show their
current count.
Andrew
Adam Beneschan
> There's a lengthy discussion of this in the Bridge Base forum which is
> inconclusive. Here is just one posting (not mine):
>
> Quoting from my favourite reference on this topic (Defensive Signals by
> Marshall Miles):
>
> Upside down signals only apply the first time the suit is played. Suppose
> partner leads a heart and you hold A852. You win the ace and, if you return
> the suit, you should lead the deuce. You would also return the deuce from
> A86542. The basic philosophy is to treat four and six card suits the same
> way, just as you treat three and five card suits the same way.
>
> Suppose you win the ace but shift to another suit. The next time the heart
> suit is played, you should play the deuce - the same card you wouild lead.
> This is called "present count." With an odd number of cards left, you play
> your lowest card.
>
> Suppose partner leads low from K10xxx, dummy has two small, you have AJx or
> AQx. If you win the ace and return your small card or follow suit later with
> your low card, you will block the suit. So, the correct play is your
> remaining honor. This is standard present count, as distinguished from
> upside down present count. It is not practical to play upside down present
> count.
Ummm, I don't see what this last paragraph has to do with signaling.
*Of* *course* if you need to unblock, or get rid of or retain a higher
card for whatever reason (to stop a squeeze or avoid being endplayed,
just to name a couple), then you play the card you have to play. This
is obviously true *regardless* of what signaling methods you've agreed
on. A decent partner will be aware of this possibility when he looks
at your signal to try to count the suit. It is not at all clear to me
that this affects what card you should choose when you have two or
more low ones to choose from. So Miles' assertion that "it is not
practical to play upside down present count", based on this sort of
example, is not at all convincing.
-- Adam
Stephen Tu
>When playing upside-down count (also called reverse count), what is the
>default carding method on the second round of a suit in which you have
>played an honour on the first round?
>
>For example, suppose that partner led a suit and you played the queen. On
>the next round of the suit, what would be the normal card from original
>holdings of:
>
> Q62
> Q642
> Q7642
>
>Obviously, in a serious partnership you would have discussed this, but in
>online games especially it's common for the entire discussion of carding
>methods to consist of "udca".
>
Whether you play udca in 2nd hand/4th hand situations shouldn't affect
this. This is a present count situation. Since you have to play high
from 2 remaining to unblock a fair amount of the time, it's not very
practical to play upside-down present count.
--
Stephen Tu
ste...@surfbest.net
David Stevenson
I find it difficult to believe that anyone I have played with on OKB
has any idea what the second card means at all.
Traditionally there was an idea in England that the standard returns
[second from three originally, fourth highest otherwise, based on
original holdings] applied when following suit as well as returning.
Much as I dislike this it seems a prevalent idea. Since this does not
treat this position as a signal people who play this will not be
affected by whether they play UDCA or standard signals.
My preference is to play whatever signals I play otherwise based on
current count in these positions, but I would never expect a pickup
partner to do so.
My best partner by far thinks current count signalling a very poor
idea.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\
Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @
<bri...@blakjak.com> ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )=
Bridgepage: http://blakjak.com/brg_menu.htm ~
Gerben Dirksen
"David Stevenson" <bri...@nospam.demon.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:$i8AEcqp...@blakjak.demon.co.uk...
> vida wrote
>>"Raija" <must...@charter.net> wrote in message
>>news:<10kv948...@corp.supernews.com>...
>>
>>> I like to play original count, and I also thought original count is more
>>> prevalent in pickup partnerships than present count, regardless whether
>>> signaling method is UDCA or standard. So I would play 6, 2, 7.
>>> Raija
>>
>>Hmm, most of my play these days takes place on OKbridge, where I often
>>play w/ good-according-to-their-lehamns pick-ups. I don't think I've
>>ever got (this, when I pay attention) original count instead of
>>present when playing udca, nor standard.
>
> I find it difficult to believe that anyone I have played with on OKB has
> any idea what the second card means at all.
>
> Traditionally there was an idea in England that the standard returns
> [second from three originally, fourth highest otherwise, based on original
> holdings] applied when following suit as well as returning. Much as I
> dislike this it seems a prevalent idea. Since this does not treat this
> position as a signal people who play this will not be affected by whether
> they play UDCA or standard signals.
>
> My preference is to play whatever signals I play otherwise based on
> current count in these positions, but I would never expect a pickup
> partner to do so.
>
> My best partner by far thinks current count signalling a very poor idea.
I play present count (low is even) in this situation if the signal is count.
More likely it's either Lavinthal or no signal though....
I don't think there are many advantages / disadvantages to current or
original count. It's good to know what you play though.
Gerben
Koen Grauwels
suit?
F.i Opps play S and you discard from you Diam 2 from Q642.
Now Opps play Diam and you play UDCA. You play the 6 from Q64 to give
remaining count?
Bud H
"Koen Grauwels" <kgra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:V1C5d.3$X35...@news.oracle.com...
Careful - there are TWO issues to consider.
1. After my first play of a card from a suit, is the next card if declarer
or dummy leads present count or is it based on original number of cards held
in the suit.
2. Is this count signal still upside down or right side up?
I know in Marshall Miles' book on defensive signalling, he advocates
STANDARD present count.
Bud H