Upside down count and attitude (UDCA) questions
Bud H
(UDCA) signals but have a few questions regarding them.
1. Let's say partner leads the ace from a presumed AKx or AKxx and
you
play the 6 as a discouraging signal from the holdings below. Partner
leads the king at trick 2. Which of your remaining cards do play at
trick 2 as your proper count signal from these three holdings?
(a) 654 (you remain with 54 after trick 1)
(b) 6543 (you remain with 543 after trick 1)
(c) 65432 (you remain with 5432 after trick 1)
2. Also, are there any good books or other written material on the
use of upside down signals?
3. What are the biggest advantages AND disadvantages of using upside
down signals compared to standard signals?
Bud H
Raija D
"Bud H" <budh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:253ffc58-e381-4712...@q4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
=======
Your question 1. is more like "What do I do at Trick 2 after I have shown
attitude at Trick 1?"
What do you do at Trick 2 when you play Standard carding? Remember that
UDCA only affects Count and Attitude. Suit preference and obvious shift is
still "low" for "low" and if it isn't, it has nothing to do with Upside Down
Count and Attitude (UDCA). It is then Reverse Suit Preference or Upside
Down Suit Preference or whatever it may be called.
Question 2.
You do not need a book on UDCA and I am certain there isn't one in
existence. You are making it all more complicated than it really is. Is
there a book on Standard Carding? Surely not.
In UDCA, for count High is odd and Low is even, and for attitude High is
discouraging and Low is encouraging. There really, truly, is nothing more to
it! UDCA does not affect your opening leads, or your leads in the middle of
the hand, or your return of partner's opening lead, and it does not affect
your agreements in any other way, such as whether you show Present versus
Original count, what your secondary signal is if attitude is known, or any
other aspect of carding.
Question 3.
The advantage of UDCA is that you do not squander a high card in signalling.
I don't know of a disadvantage and I have played UDCA since beginning to
play bridge in 1978. Sometimes one gets dealt spots that are hard to read,
but that happens whether one plays standard or UDCA.
Good luck with the switch, I think it is worth it!
Raija
thg
> I am trying to make the change to upside down count and attitude
> (UDCA) signals but have a few questions regarding them.
>
> 1. Let's say partner leads the ace from a presumed AKx or AKxx and
> you
> play the 6 as a discouraging signal from the holdings below. Partner
> leads the king at trick 2. Which of your remaining cards do play at
> trick 2 as your proper count signal from these three holdings?
>
> (a) 654 (you remain with 54 after trick 1)
>
> (b) 6543 (you remain with 543 after trick 1)
>
> (c) 65432 (you remain with 5432 after trick 1)
Assuming your intent it to give count. I believe most play standard
present count, so high from an even number remaining and low from an
odd number remaining. Partner is supposed to be able to figure out
the two card difference.
> 2. Also, are there any good books or other written material on the
> use of upside down signals?
Miles has a book on defense that pays special attention to carding
methods. I think it is quite good. The name escapes me at the
moment, but it is one of his more recent books. There is discussion
in the book about the advantages and the disadvantages (of all the
methods he proposes) are not ignored.
Tim
judyorcarl
There is a lot to be said for upside-down attitude with rightside-up
count.
As seems typical with count signals, the problem is the 9:
You have Q932, and partner leads the ace against a suit contract,
normally promising the the K. You play the 2 to show the Q. The dolt
across the table now leads the K, for no known reason. (Maybe he
thinks you would show a doubleton. You wouldn't would you?)
Now you're faced with the choice of falsecarding with the 3 or risking
torpedoing a trick by truecarding with the 9.
Carl
henry...@yahoo.com
I won't comment on what card to play at trick 2 except to note that
the most common standard I know of is to play high from an even number
of cards remaining (= odd number of cards originally) and low from an
odd number (= even number of cards originally).
There is only 1 substantial disadvantage to UDCA and that is that in
certain situations, standard carding can both unblock and encourage,
but UDCA cannot. For example:
T
AK8xx Q92
J7xx
partner leads the king against 3nt, and east has the option of (1)
playing the 9 and discouraging a continuation, or (2) playing the
deuce to encourage and blocking the suit if declarer is smart enough
to duck the return of the 9 at trick 3 (he should be).
I seem to recall a suggestion that UDCA be off when dummy has a
singleton, but that doesn't solve this new variation:
Tx
AK8x Q92
J7xx
Again, in standard methods trick one is K, x, 9, x. West underleads
to East's queen and is left with the A8 over the J7. In UDCA methods,
East has the same choice of discouraging or blocking the suit.
Henrysun909
OldPalooka
Standard is count at trick 2 unless suit preference is indicated
whether udac or old fashioned. I prefer to use old fashioned current
count (high even), because it does not require a different system when
partner leads low, so less memory work, but either works most of the
time and fails some of the time.
With a true expert partner, playing 5 then 6 in the last case could
clarify count (although it is hard to come up with a case where count
would still be in doubt and suit preference clearly not applicable).
Since the 432 are missing after two rounds, you are known to have
discouraged. Nearly as viable might be 6 and 4 which could only be a
three card holding if declarer could afford to false card twice to
hold 5x.
Lorne
news:253ffc58-e381-4712...@q4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> (UDCA) signals but have a few questions regarding them.
>
> 1. Let's say partner leads the ace from a presumed AKx or AKxx and
> you
> play the 6 as a discouraging signal from the holdings below. Partner
> leads the king at trick 2. Which of your remaining cards do play at
> trick 2 as your proper count signal from these three holdings?
>
You should give current count at trick 2 - ie show an even number left in
cases (a) and (c) and an odd number for (b).
>
> (a) 654 (you remain with 54 after trick 1)
>
>
> (b) 6543 (you remain with 543 after trick 1)
>
>
> (c) 65432 (you remain with 5432 after trick 1)
>
>
> 2. Also, are there any good books or other written material on the
> use of upside down signals?
>
could be a short book - maybe one paragraph?
>
> 3. What are the biggest advantages AND disadvantages of using upside
> down signals compared to standard signals?
>
I do not believe it makes any difference giving count (but am happy for
somebody to prove me wrong).
With attitude however it can make a big diffence when discarding, and
sometimes when following to partner. Mostly you will discard useless high
cards in suits you do not have and expect partner to work out which suit you
do have but occasionally you need to force partners' attention to your suit
quickly and it is much less likely to cost a trick if you can do that with a
small card.
Andrew
An advantage is being able to encourage without wasting a useful high
spot. For example with this holding in a NT contract on the lead of
the king east can encourage without wasting the ten spot.
Example 1
J765
AK43 QT2
98
A disadvantage is being unable to encourage while unblocking a high
spot. For example, again in NT, on the lead of the king you'd like to
encourage with the ten to unblock, win the queen at T2 and lead
through declarer's jack at T3.
Example 2
43
AK95 QT2
J876
Andrew
Andrew
Use the same process you do today to decide whether a signal is
attitude, count or SP. The only changes is in how you signal on the
first round of a suit:
1. To give positive attitude play low
2. To give even count play low
That is all there is to it. Signals on the second round of a suit can
remain standard. So from 654, play 6 to discourage then 5 to show a
doubleton remaining. Kit Woolsey's excellent book Partnership Defense
discusses UDCA.
Andrew
Bud H
"Bud H" <budh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:253ffc58-e381-4712...@q4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
So on the second trick do you follow suit using
A. standard present count (playing low from three or five remaining cards
and second highest from two or four remaining cards) - meaning at trick 2
you would play the 5, 3, and 4 respectively in (a), (b), and (c).
OR
B. upside down present count (playing the middle card from three remaining
cards and low from two or four remaining cards) - meaning at trick 2 you
would play the 4, 4, and 2 respectively in (a), (b), and (c).
Andrew
> "Bud H" <budh9...@gmail.com> wrote in message
You can do either and it is a matter of agreement. Marshall Miles has
argued that standard present count is better, but I do not recall the
justification.
Andrew
OldPalooka
I don't know Marshall's rationale, but I believe it more likely to be
necessary to unblock from T83 than not if partner continues high then
switches to put you in, just as it is more likely you need to unblock
from QT3 when partner leads low and you later gain the lead. Even if
it were a close proposition, I don't care for changing methods any
more than necessary between the two cases.
Bill Jacobs
>
> Question 3.
> The advantage of UDCA is that you do not squander a high card in
> signalling. I don't know of a disadvantage and I have played UDCA
> since beginning to play bridge in 1978. Sometimes one gets dealt
> spots that are hard to read, but that happens whether one plays
> standard or UDCA.
>
I agree with the principle of the upside. If you like the suit, you don't
want to squander a highish spot. If you don't like the suit, you can
presumably afford to play a high spot.
The following is a known downside:
543
AK87 J102
Q96
West leads an honour. Whatever East's card means systemically (count or
attitude), it's no good for upside-down. You just have to play the low
one.
Cheers ... Bill.
Alan Malloy
Bah. Good players play the jack, and then lock declarer in his hand to
make him lead the suit next.
--
Cheers,
Alan (San Jose, California, USA)
thg
> "Bud H" <budh9...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Why wouldn't you play the 5 in (b)?
Bud H
"thg" <thg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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===================================
Because "standard" count with four small is to play the second highest
(unless you can't afford it, then third highest).
Andrew
> "thg" <thg0...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Not a smart thing to do. Signalling as you describe will make it
difficult to read your length. If you use upside down current count,
play the highest spot you can afford from an odd number remaining.
From 654, play 6 to discourage then 4 to give even count
From 6543 play 6 to discourage and 5 to give odd count.
Andrew
Frances
> 3. What are the biggest advantages AND disadvantages of using upside
> down signals compared to standard signals?
>
There is no fundamental difference. Any advantages or disadvantages
are tiny. That's why all of standard count & attitude, UDCA and
standard count, reverse attitude are very common, as are the various
forms of odd/even signals.
I play reverse attitude with one partner and standard attitude with
another and while on individual hands one can work out better than the
other, there is definitely no long-term bias. So far I have never
played reverse count, but only because I think I'd forget it.