revolving Lavinthal discards
dickiegerald
in NT contracts.
Any suggestions or comments
Thank you
jackie...@gmail.com
Do you mean, "rolling" discards? In that event, a high spade rolls up
and over down clubs (the next suit which is the either clubs or
diamonds based upon declares play).
A low spade rolls down to the next lowest suit, heart or diamonds,
again based upon declares play.
Other suits are treated normally in that a high club, diamond or heart
discard give direction to partner by the use of either a high or low
card. A low club roll over in the same way to spades.
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
>My partner and I are considering using REVOLVING LAVINTHAL discards
>in NT contracts.
I used these for a while with one partner against both NT and suit
contracts (just skip the trump suit in the cycle). They seem
slightly better than just Lavinthal, in that you don't always have
to use a high card to signal for a spade.
However lately I have gone back to just using (upside-down) attitude
discards.
One of my issues with Lavinthal/revolving is that it seems harder
to give a neutral signal -- e.g. if I am showing out of spades,
with attitude discards it seems easier in situations where I want
to discard a discouraging heart without partner thinking I prefer
one minor over the other. But that could be a function of lack of
sophistication from me and my partners.
Lorne
news:fa8f9e85-3435-4e6c...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
The problem with any of these discard systems is that it seems impossible to
play a card that just says you have no great desire for anything and partner
should defend in the way he thinks best looking at the hand.
Much better IMO is reverse attitude (or upside down attitude if in the USA).
If you are desperate for a suit you discard a low one in it (less likely to
cost much) but most of the time you throw high cards in suits you have no
interest in and no need to keep and in my experience almost never have the
experience of not having a card you want to play.
Will in New Haven
Most clubs do not provide the swivel-chairs that make playing these
most effective.
--
Will in New Haven
castigamatti
I will support revolving obviously, now even more.
BR
paul
> "dickiegerald" <rtrax...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fa8f9e85-3435-4e6c...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > My partner and I are considering using REVOLVING LAVINTHAL discards
> > in NT contracts.
>
> > Any suggestions or comments
> > Thank you
>
> The problem with any of these discard systems is that it seems impossible to
> play a card that just says you have no great desire for anything and partner
> should defend in the way he thinks best looking at the hand.
>
What's the problem? When you're sure what suit you want and have the
appropriate card, you discard quickly; when you aren't sure or lack
the proper card, you think a long time before discarding. Partner
never gets it wrong.
Steve Foster
> One of my issues with Lavinthal/revolving is that it seems harder
> to give a neutral signal -- e.g. if I am showing out of spades,
> with attitude discards it seems easier in situations where I want
> to discard a discouraging heart without partner thinking I prefer
> one minor over the other. But that could be a function of lack of
> sophistication from me and my partners.
You throw a card that is neither high nor low to give a neutral signal.
eg 2-4/5 are usually classed as low, 8+ classed as high, so 5/6-7 are
logically neither high nor low, and can be used for neutral.
--
Steve Foster
For SSL Certificates, Domains, etc, visit.:
https://netshop.virtual-isp.net
Steve Foster
> The problem with any of these discard systems is that it seems
> impossible to play a card that just says you have no great desire for
> anything and partner should defend in the way he thinks best looking
> at the hand.
Don't be silly. Lavinthal and Revolving Lavinthal both allow for the
play of a "middling" card to indicate no preference (since you give a
positive signal by playing high or low). It's up to partnership
agreement as to what exactly constitutes high/low/middling, of course.
Michael Angelo Ravera
> My partner and I are considering using REVOLVING LAVINTHAL discards
> in NT contracts.
There is no THEORETICAL advantage of revolving over standard or
reversed Lavinthal discards. All of the systems generally ignore
trump.
Revolving is just reversed in the highest and lowest non-trump suits
and standard in the middle one. Standard, reversed, and revolving (and
even reversed revolving) are all theoretically equivalent. It's just a
question of what's easiest to remember and implement in practice. If
revolving speaks to you, use it.
As others have said, "I know this suit is bad, but am not sure that I
have a preference" may be an advantage of Lavinthal. You just discard
a card from the bad suit that is hard to read.
Odd-even has the advantage over Lavinthal that you often have two ways
to send the same message. Lavinthal has the disadvantage that you
can't signal *OUT OF* your void. Odd-Even has the disadvantage that
you might be faced with a situation where you have neither a low even
card of the higher suit than the one that you like, an high even card
in the lower suit than the one that you like, nor be able to spare an
odd card in the suit that you like.
However, you will find that most experts have the understanding
"signal early and only when I need to know something and don't much
bother after trick 4 because I won't be looking".
KWSchneider
I use revolving discards against notrump contracts and they have a
significant benefit over straight Lavinthal. Unlike straight
Lavinthal, you have a suit preference option available - actually two.
And even if you are using some sort of suit preference within straight
Lavinthal [not common in my experience], try asking for a spade switch
when you have only clubs and diamonds to discard.
In revolving for example, if I want a switch to spades, I can choose a
low club or a high heart. Odd-even requires a designated "trump" suit
in no-trump for suit preference handling.
Kurt
Raija D
"dickiegerald" <rtra...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fa8f9e85-3435-4e6c...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
I think standard or upside down work fine, in combination of seeing dummy ,
remembering the auction, and counting declarer's (and partner's ) hand shape
and HCP. Something one is doing anyway in every hand.
Complicated carding plans tend to cause tempo problems, particularly if no
discard gives the message you would like to give. And a memory strain.
Travis Crump
Its a central part of Lavinthal, how can it not be common?
try asking for a spade switch
> when you have only clubs and diamonds to discard.
>
> In revolving for example, if I want a switch to spades, I can choose a
> low club or a high heart.
Instead of a high club or high heart in normal Lavinthal? I suppose in
revolving there is always a suit where a low card asks for the suit you
want, but usually if you can afford to pitch from a suit then you can
afford a high spot. And frequently you can only afford to pitch from
one suit anyway. In defense all the suits are equal and how you map
them to various signals will largely be arbitrary.
Travis
KWSchneider
I would expect that a high club asks for a heart [or do you have to
find a "medium" club for this - with your doubleton for example]? And
I offered you a choice between clubs and diamonds for your discard.
If this is the case, then Lavinthal with suit preference is more of a
tempo breaker than revolving, simply because you have to have a 3
tiered response requirement [low medium high] whereas in revolving you
simply need low or high.
Kurt
Travis Crump
Apologies, I am having real trouble following what you are trying to say
or if you have any idea what you are talking about.
> I would expect that a high club asks for a heart [or do you have to
> find a "medium" club for this - with your doubleton for example]?
In this example hearts is presumably the suit you are discarding on. If
partner needs help figuring out hearts god help him. High = highest
other suit, medium = same suit/no pref, low= lowest other suit.
Perforce if spades is an 'other suit' it is always the highest one.
And
> I offered you a choice between clubs and diamonds for your discard.
I was just copying your description of revolving changing the modifiers.
Sorry for assuming your example was correct.
>
> If this is the case, then Lavinthal with suit preference is more of a
> tempo breaker than revolving, simply because you have to have a 3
> tiered response requirement [low medium high] whereas in revolving you
> simply need low or high.
>
> Kurt
Well how do you show no preference/same suit in revolving? Presumably
middle, right? If you feel no need for no preference/same suit, then
you can get by with low/high in regular Lavinthal as well. I hesitate
to get into what it means when you ask for a suit that logic dictates
you couldn't possibly want.
Travis
KWSchneider
You are quire correct - I was forgetting the 4th suit is the one your
are discarding on and hence there are only 2 remaining suits to show
preference. Brain fart on my part.
Not the last time, I'll assure you...
Kurt
Raija D
"KWSchneider" <question...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cfcd87d-4592-49b0...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Kurt
====
I can imagine how susceptible to brainfarts and tempo problems the method is
at the table - we can't even discuss it here where there is unlimited time
to ponder the possibilities, without error :)
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
>Lone Locust of the Apocalypse wrote:
>> One of my issues with Lavinthal/revolving is that it seems harder
>> to give a neutral signal -- e.g. if I am showing out of spades,
>> with attitude discards it seems easier in situations where I want
>> to discard a discouraging heart without partner thinking I prefer
>> one minor over the other. But that could be a function of lack of
>> sophistication from me and my partners.
>
>You throw a card that is neither high nor low to give a neutral signal.
>eg 2-4/5 are usually classed as low, 8+ classed as high, so 5/6-7 are
>logically neither high nor low, and can be used for neutral.
Thanks, I didn't really need the theory explained to me. In practice,
whether you actually hold a card that conveys the meaning you want
seems somewhat more problematic. Granted that will always be true
whatever system you pick.
Douglas Newlands
What about being a member of the "we just sit down and work it out" set
and just playing plain count? You just chuck something from suits you
are not interested in or embarrassed about and don't need to worry about
positive messages.
doug
David Stevenson
>My partner and I are considering using REVOLVING LAVINTHAL discards
>in NT contracts.
As most people understand it, Revolving is one type of discard,
Lavinthal is a different one.
Lavinthal is slightly easier to understand, especially for poor
players ["High" means "high"].
Revolving is very slightly technically superior, since to ask for a
spade you *always* need a high card playing Lavinthal.
In England, Lavinthal is often called McKenny or McKinney because Hy
Lavinthal invented them.
I prefer Roman, or odd/even. If you have a long suit you must discard
from, Roman allows you to ask for that suit, Lavinthal and Revolving do
not.
An interesting question is whether you should have a card that does
not give a particular signal. Later in the thread someone gives this as
a disadvantage of playing these but you can incorporate such a card. You
could say a 6 or 7 has no meaning at Lavinthal or Revolving, and a high
odd card has no meaning at Roman.
There is also Dodds played a lot around here. I know of no particular
advantage for Dodds.
Just to clarify:
Lavinthal discard. When you discard a high [low] card you are asking
for the higher [lower] of the two suits excluding that discarded or
discarded upon.
Revolving discard. When you discard a high [low] card you are asking
for the next suit up [down] from the suit discarded excluding that
discarded upon [clubs are above spades, spades are below clubs].
Roman discard. An odd card asks for the suit discarded. An even card
is a Lavinthal discard.
Dodds discard. An even card asks for the suit discarded. An odd card
asks for the other suit of the same colour.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Fax: +44 870 055 7697
<webj...@googlemail.com> Tel: +44 151 677 7412
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Richard Pavlicek
> Dodds discard: An even card asks for the suit discarded.
> An odd card asks for the other suit of the same colour.
So if a spade is led and I discard an odd club, I am asking
for more discards? Surreal, but cool. And it also seems good
for deliberate revokes... heck, with this signal I can save
my spades for later. Of course, ACBL duffers will now be
allowed to ask, "No spades, partner, or Dodds?"
-RP
HoneyMonster
(ROFL) Thank you, Sir.