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bergen raises with jacoby 2nt
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jimka....@googlemail.com
Jan 20, 2013, 6:17:28 AM1/20/13
to
I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
Barry Margolin
Jan 20, 2013, 11:10:24 AM1/20/13
to
In article <f1bcb65e-f786-456d...@googlegroups.com>,
slam bidding. Since Jacoby 2NT takes up so much bidding room, you need
to make up for that by having it transmit more information.
And if you only have 3 trumps, you frequently have a 4-card suit you can
bid on the 2 level, and raise opener's suit later. If you're 3=4=3=3
and opener bid 1S, you can't bid 2H (most play that this promises 5
hearts); many partnerships have a conventional bid to show this shape
and 13-15 points (a common agreement is that jumping to 3NT shows this,
you can also use forcing 1NT followed by 3NT).
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
jimka....@googlemail.com wrote:
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3
> level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read
> the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is
> the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but
> allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
The difference between 8 and 9 card fits can be incredibly important in
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3
> level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read
> the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is
> the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but
> allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
slam bidding. Since Jacoby 2NT takes up so much bidding room, you need
to make up for that by having it transmit more information.
And if you only have 3 trumps, you frequently have a 4-card suit you can
bid on the 2 level, and raise opener's suit later. If you're 3=4=3=3
and opener bid 1S, you can't bid 2H (most play that this promises 5
hearts); many partnerships have a conventional bid to show this shape
and 13-15 points (a common agreement is that jumping to 3NT shows this,
you can also use forcing 1NT followed by 3NT).
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Lorne
Jan 21, 2013, 5:29:58 AM1/21/13
to
On 20/01/2013 11:17, jimka....@googlemail.com wrote:
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
>
2N commits you to playing in the major. With a 5-3 fit you may often be
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
>
better in NT so I would stick to 4 card support if I were you.
Also look at the system cards for top players that are published at
major tournaments - as far as I know all top plyers using Jacoby require
4 card support so it is unlikely that 3 card support will work or some
would play it.
vsp...@hotmail.com
Jan 21, 2013, 10:20:25 AM1/21/13
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:17:28 AM UTC-8, jimka....@googlemail.com wrote:
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
>
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
On average the extra trump is worth an extra trick.
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
>
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
Think of the extra trump as holding another king
in your hand.
Paul Hightower
Jan 22, 2013, 9:00:04 AM1/22/13
to
<jimka....@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:f1bcb65e-f786-456d...@googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An eight-card major suit fit is fine for game purposes -- but the object of
a forcing raise is to explore slam. When you have a nine card major fit, the
value of short suits and side suits increases. Also, when you have only
three card support for opener, you must have at least one side four-card
suit. If partner fits that suit, slam may be easier in the 4-4 fit with the
5-3 suit as a source of discards. Consider AKxxx xx AQxx xx opposite Qxx Ax
KJxx Axxx. A standard sequence might begin 1S-2C; 2D and responder can aim
for slam in diamonds. If responder instead started with 2NT as a forcing
raise, I would expect 1S-2NT; 4S-pass or similar -- niether player has a lot
of extra strength, and in fact 11 tricks are the limit at spades or notrump.
news:f1bcb65e-f786-456d...@googlegroups.com...
An eight-card major suit fit is fine for game purposes -- but the object of
a forcing raise is to explore slam. When you have a nine card major fit, the
value of short suits and side suits increases. Also, when you have only
three card support for opener, you must have at least one side four-card
suit. If partner fits that suit, slam may be easier in the 4-4 fit with the
5-3 suit as a source of discards. Consider AKxxx xx AQxx xx opposite Qxx Ax
KJxx Axxx. A standard sequence might begin 1S-2C; 2D and responder can aim
for slam in diamonds. If responder instead started with 2NT as a forcing
raise, I would expect 1S-2NT; 4S-pass or similar -- niether player has a lot
of extra strength, and in fact 11 tricks are the limit at spades or notrump.
dake50
Jan 22, 2013, 9:15:12 AM1/22/13
to
Why would a well-discussed partnership NOT have strong
continuations after 3C,3D - cancel the Bergen invite?
Eg. a second tier of splinters to show next bid, or
a min/max ask, a short ask, some something or all
4-level rebids are chosen to be wasted.
That could include Jacoby-like ask/show.
continuations after 3C,3D - cancel the Bergen invite?
Eg. a second tier of splinters to show next bid, or
a min/max ask, a short ask, some something or all
4-level rebids are chosen to be wasted.
That could include Jacoby-like ask/show.
Barry Margolin
Jan 22, 2013, 11:37:48 AM1/22/13
to
In article <7c41120a-c197-425e...@googlegroups.com>,
So you're suggesting that one of the Bergen raises could be a two-way
bid: either limited or slammish. A problem with this is that opener
won't know which it is until you're on the 4 level, so you've lost an
entire level of constructive bidding.
With Jacoby 2NT, opener can show distributional features immediately on
the 3 level.
bid: either limited or slammish. A problem with this is that opener
won't know which it is until you're on the 4 level, so you've lost an
entire level of constructive bidding.
With Jacoby 2NT, opener can show distributional features immediately on
the 3 level.
S. Needham
Jan 23, 2013, 10:55:11 AM1/23/13
to
> So you're suggesting that one of the Bergen raises could be a two-way
> bid: either limited or slammish. A problem with this is that opener
> won't know which it is until you're on the 4 level, so you've lost an
> entire level of constructive bidding.
Sure, but we're talking about responding hands with shortness, and I'm not a
> bid: either limited or slammish. A problem with this is that opener
> won't know which it is until you're on the 4 level, so you've lost an
> entire level of constructive bidding.
big fan of unbalanced J2NT b/c I think responder should show a source of
tricks. Compare:
1M-3C/3D*-not3M or 4M = large GF+/SI splinter (* = asking)
1M-spl = limited GF spl, disclosed short or not
1M-2N/3X*-jump to show short w/unbalanced hand? (* = short)
It's hard to see where there is more inefficiency over concealing in the
Bergen weak raise, except for 1M-3C/4M This now becomes a guessing game,
probably of the quantitative variety, w/o special agreements.
Regards and Happy Trails,
Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA
judyo...@gmail.com
Jan 24, 2013, 9:43:10 AM1/24/13
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:17:28 AM UTC-5, jimka....@googlemail.com wrote:
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
>
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
The February Bridge World arrived. Master Solvers Club problem E is to respond to 1S with KQJ Axxx K9x xxx.
> I understand the advantage of the bergen raise, i.e., competing at the 3 level when your partnership has 5/4 trump control. However, as I have read the jacoby 2nt also demands that the responder have 4 trump support. what is the reason for the 4 trump requirement? I.e., if I played jacoby 2nt but allowed 3 card trump support, what would I lose?
>
>
>
> I ask because I'm trying to evaluate how these two bidding conventions which are relatively unknown in France might fit in in the standard french system (SEF). The french system has some similar bids such as a special 2NT-fitted (2SA fitte), which would have to be abandoned if the partnership uses the jacoby 2nt.
The plurality vote was Jacoby 2NT, pretending to miscount spades.
The director Jeff Rubens pointed out the live possibility that the only makable game is 3NT, which the 2NT response would preclude. (A minimum balanced opener will rebid 4S.)
Carl
Steve Willner
Jan 30, 2013, 9:47:23 PM1/30/13
to
On 2013-01-22 11:37 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> So you're suggesting that one of the Bergen raises could be a two-way
> bid: either limited or slammish.
I think the suggestion was that both of them could be two-way.
> So you're suggesting that one of the Bergen raises could be a two-way
> bid: either limited or slammish.
> A problem with this is that opener
> won't know which it is until you're on the 4 level, so you've lost an
> entire level of constructive bidding.
simplest method is to agree that 3M+1 accepts game, assuming responder
has the limited hand. That leaves room for responder to describe some
particular type of slammish hand below 4M. The hand type does have to
be pretty specific, though. Void-splinter comes to mind as one type
worth showing.
A former partner and I, in a _very_ scientific partnership that used
Bergen raises, discussed folding in slammish types and decided it wasn't
worth the trouble. (Barry will remember Alex.) Other people might
reach a different conclusion, I suppose. The slammish types do have to
be specific, and that means they won't occur often. When they do occur,
however, the gain can be substantial. The difference between void and
singleton is huge.
--
Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls.
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 swil...@nhcc.net
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
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