Believe it or not

[Bertil]

I've just discovered that a prominent bridge authority and prolific writer
revalues opener's hand after a single raise by adding points for a long trump
suit of 6 or more cards and also for singletons and voids, but not for one
doubleton.He also limits the points to the number of trumps.
Thus the 7-3-2-1 hand AJxxxxx-AKx-xx-x would be revalued as 19 pts after a
single raise. This authority is Marty Bergen.
I'm amazed that none of the Bergen devotees has called attention to this.

Stig
USA

[Nick France]

Why are you amazed as you obviously disagree with Bergen that after a
single raise this hand should bid game. You really have no concept of
how to upgrade hands when a fit is found.

Nick France

[RonfromLao]

Really! Wow oh gosh oh golly gee!
Ron

[lowerline]

Op maandag 6 mei 2013 13:15:06 UTC+2 schreef Bertil het volgende:

That would be 19 Bergen Points. Bergen needs 20 to force to game.

Steven

[Bertil]

That suggests that Bergen would not jump to a game bid with the 7-3-2-1
hand but invite with a 3 M bid.

Stig
USA

[Bertil]

Where did I express disagreement with Bergen's hand revaluation?
I'm only amazed that nobody had called attention to it.
You seem unable to read and think logically.

Considering that you think you know how to evaluate every hand and how to
bid it and surely know how to play every hand correctly, why are you not
national and world champion many times over? I'll tell you why.
You are too ignorant and narrow minded and lack sound judgment and common
sense. You'll never make it.

Read my reply to another post about 19 Bergen pts.

Tell us where Bergen discusses the LTC!

Stig

[Will in New Haven]

However, inviting game would not usually help out that much as partner
is not going to realize the freakish nature of our hand. Trump honors,
which usually look really good over an invite, won't be as valuable.
Unless the suit breaks 3-0, KQx is no more valuable than Kxx and even
xxx will be fine if the outside losers can be kept to two. Also, a
small doubleton in Hearts is a full trick and partner won't recognize
that.

Two examples:

KQx Jxx QJx xxxx is nearly a maximum, although without any really
exiting features. Partner will tend to accept opposite a generic game
try (such as 3S) and certainly over a 3C, short suit try. Opposite
many game try hands, partner certainly SHOULD accept. The only reason
it isn't an absolute maximum is that one should note the unnatractive
distribution and soft outside values.

xxx xx AXXX QXXX You have ten tricks on a 2-1 trump break opposite
this minimum with a wasted Queen. Partner will never accept and you
miss game. Would a help-suit try or long-suit try in Hearts change
that? Possibly but very likely not and not generic game-try would.

So everyone should bid game at IMP or rubber bridge because it is
likely to be a good game and the opponents are very likely to bid it.
And greater precision isn't possible.

At matchpoints, a game try or even a pass might be considered but you
might as well try for a game because the opponents are almost
certainly going to have a very nice three-level contract and you would
have to bid three anyway.

I would bid game at matchpoints but the number of unsuitable hands
where game would not have any play isn't small.

--
Will in New Haven

[Nick France]

One day you will make sense. If you agree with Bergen then you have a
basic way to examine hands. If all you did was find a point count of
the hand that you could continue to say nobody understands what to do
then you wasted your time.

And where did hand play ever became part of this discussion? Hand
evaluation is an art and one I do well at but others do better. As
for my record at the sectional, regional and national level, I am
happy with them. This would be something you personally will have no
experience as you avoid them even when they are in your backyard.

Come play in a local sectional and regional and lets see how you do.
I am sure there are a lot of us that can't just wait to see your
approach.

Nick France

[Bertil]

You failed to document any mentioning by Bergen of LTC. How do you explain
that Bergen seems to ignore a method of hand valuation that the rest of
the bridge community favors? Remarkable!

Stig

[Nick France]

If you want LTC documented go read Klinger but in any case your
comment makes little sense. You want everything to fit into a little
square box. It really is time for you to move on and start learning
from experience by playing against good players.

As for LTC on this hand, you start with 6 losing tricks but since you
have 2 more Aces than queens you have only 5 losing tricks. Or you
could adjust the losing trick by realizing you have 5 controls (A=2,
K=1) and that is normally associated with a 17 HCP hand not a 12 HCP
hand and such a differents also lowers the LTC count by one.

Even more riduculous is your trying to make a major point over a 1
point difference in evaluation on a hand. I have stated that I am in
the camp that thinks this is a game forcing hand. Other's might judge
this a very strong invite (that is what you are implying from your
estimate of Bergen's point count). Either cold be right and Will has
implied in his post that it doesn't matter too much as partner will
often not be able to properly evaluate his hand if invited.

To be honest, before anyone will ever take your opinions seriously,
you have to learn to stop trying to insult everyone that disagrees
with you; learn to listen to constructive criticism; and actually play
in some good games (or heaven forbid a sectional or regional) where
you can learn what you are doing wrong.

Nick France

[Will in New Haven]

Everyone I showed the hand to at the Tuesday night game in Hamden just
bid 4S over 2S. While "the Tuesday night game in Hamden" doesn't sound
strong, and it isn't, the people I showed the hand to were
1: A pro who finished third in a major nationals pairs event just now.
2: His client, who would have been insulted not to be asked. NOT his
partner at the nationals.
3: The guy who runs the game, who is a good player with whom I have
won a couple of regional events.
4: My partner Brian who can play.
5: An absolute idiot who happened to be listening when I told Brian
about the hand.
6: Another partner of mine who has returned to bridge after a very
long layoff. He is one of the more conservative bidders I know.

So it is six for six, four for four if we throw out the people I would
not have voluntarily asked.

None of them considered a game try. I didn't have time to ask about
their reasoning, etc.

--
Will in New Haven

>

[HoneyMonster]

How ridiculous. You have quite a decent hand, a 10+ card fit and partner
will be unable correctly to evaluate after an invitation. Points,
schmoints.

Just bid 4S like a human being and get on with it.

[Square Peg]

On Wed, 8 May 2013 20:22:21 +0000 (UTC), HoneyMonster
<nob...@someplace.invalid> wrote:

... snip ...

>> You failed to document any mentioning by Bergen of LTC. How do you
>> explain that Bergen seems to ignore a method of hand valuation that the
>> rest of the bridge community favors? Remarkable!
>
>How ridiculous. You have quite a decent hand, a 10+ card fit and partner
>will be unable correctly to evaluate after an invitation. Points,
>schmoints.
>
>Just bid 4S like a human being and get on with it.

Well, you're giving him a little too much credit there...

Stiggie is not asking for knowledge. He's setting up straw men that he
can smugly knock down. As far as I can see, he's never agreed with
anyone about anything. He has a little knowledge, but almost no
understanding. A normal person, would ask politely and respectfully
consider the answers. Stiggie is a polemic interested in nothing more
than the argument.

He reminds me of the first line in the ancient proverb:

He who knows not and knows not he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, is a child - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, is asleep - wake him.
He who knows and knows he knows, is a wise man - follow him.

Or the famous statement from Mark Twain:

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you
know for sure that just ain't so.

[iand...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 18:52:28 UTC+1, Will in New Haven wrote:

> Everyone I showed the hand to at the Tuesday night game in Hamden just
>
> bid 4S over 2S. While "the Tuesday night game in Hamden" doesn't sound
>
> strong, and it isn't, the people I showed the hand to were
>
> 1: A pro who finished third in a major nationals pairs event just now.
>
> 2: His client, who would have been insulted not to be asked. NOT his
>
> partner at the nationals.
>
> 3: The guy who runs the game, who is a good player with whom I have
>
> won a couple of regional events.
>
> 4: My partner Brian who can play.
>
> 5: An absolute idiot who happened to be listening when I told Brian
>
> about the hand.
>
> 6: Another partner of mine who has returned to bridge after a very
>
> long layoff. He is one of the more conservative bidders I know.
>
>
>
> So it is six for six, four for four if we throw out the people I would
>
> not have voluntarily asked.
>
>
>
> None of them considered a game try. I didn't have time to ask about
>
> their reasoning, etc.

++++Will, I am astonished at your dedication to a totally lost cause. You could have asked 1, 10, 100 or 1000 people and you would have got the same response. And it wouldn't have helped. Bertil/Stig/Whatever is not interested. He's a major irritant in this newsgroup and I don't understand why you, and other long-term posters, continue to respond to his nonsense. The points he raises are of no interest. He has no knowledge of bridge, and is uninterested in acquiring any. He is not a contributor to this community, he is a drain upon it, and in my opinion is gradually destroying it.

Please ignore him, no matter how provocative he is. If he replies to what I have written in this posting I will ignore it, whatever the content and however rude he is, because I have nothing further to say, and my opinion of him will not alter.

[Will in New Haven]

> Please ignore him, no matter how provocative he is. If he replies to what I have written in this posting I will ignore it, whatever the content and however rude he is, because I have nothing further to say, and my opinion of him will not alter.-

_________________________

About twenty-five percent, maybe a little lower, of the threads he
starts provoke interesting discussion among the other people in the
forum. However, his useful and/or interesting contribution to these
threads ends at the end of his first post.

Your general point, however, is well-taken.

[Bertil]

What a novel and inspiring idea, that has been proposed before without any effect.
You are a typical cowardly guttersnipe, who refuses to defend his ignorant, stupid, narrow minded and insulting opinion.
So you think that having written one article and three notes in the Bridge
World is proof of my lack of knowledge and desire to learn?
Have you ever made a positive and constructive contribution to the world of
bridge? List them here and document your credentials if you have any.
And do the same for my detractors, if you can find any writings.
If the subject matter of any post of mine is of no interest, it will be ignored.

You are a damnable lowlife. If I never here from you again, it will be too soon
Are you a Tea Party member? You sound like one.

Stig

[derek]

On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:42:44 AM UTC-3, Will in New Haven wrote:
> On May 10, 5:18 am, iandp...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Please ignore him, no matter how provocative he is. If he replies to what I have written in this posting I will ignore it, whatever the content and however rude he is, because I have nothing further to say, and my opinion of him will not alter.-
>

> About twenty-five percent, maybe a little lower, of the threads he
> starts provoke interesting discussion among the other people in the
> forum. However, his useful and/or interesting contribution to these
> threads ends at the end of his first post.

I agree. Ian, your contributions are always interesting, but they're few and far between. Stig's contributions are exactly the opposite, but this thread is a good example of stimulating interesting discussion. We've had a good array of suggestions for how one evaluates such a shapely hand - and an overwhelming agreement that the particular hand presented is worth a direct game bid. How Stig feels about it is pretty irrelevant.

[Will in New Haven]

I think the point that no game try will reach good games and avoid bad
ones with any real accuracy is interesting, even though I made it, and
I first thought of it when he said that KQ of trumps was the best five
point holding that responder could have. While that isn't true,
responder will think it is, and you will reach some of the few games
you shouldn't be in while missing many that you should.

So his foolish statement, which he will never discuss, led to some
interesting thoughts.

[Nick France]

This is Stig's approach to everything. Insult those that disagree
with him. Then claim to be more than he really is while trying to
imply that this is what others are doing. He has a strange concept of
what a positive contribution his

And Will How dare you insult him by actually asking others what their
opinions are. Stig will never forgive you that.

Nick France

[Will in New Haven]

He hasn't responded to the results of my poll. He has never mentioned
his claim that KQ of trumps was the best five HCP opener could have.
However, I am grateful for the latter claim, incorrect though it was,
because it led to my realization that trying for game on this
particular hand would get you to a few bad games and miss a lot of
good ones.

I am not sure the best action at matchpoints isn't 3S, _not_ a game
try. It is certainly what I would do if I were intentionally playing
for a top and risking a bottom.

[pgmer6809]

Amen!

[iand...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 10 May 2013 23:57:40 UTC+1, derek wrote:
Ian, your contributions are always interesting, but they're few and far between....

++++Thank you for those kind words, Derek. My heyday as a poster is far away in the rear-view mirror, but during my years of activity I felt that I learned something occasionally, and was entertained occasionally. That I'm not around much is not a reflection on the group in general, for which I maintain great affection, but I have a reasonably demanding day job that gets more so as time goes by, not less. I'm also involved in bridge administration, being on the board of the English Bridge Union (EBU), Chairman of the EBU's Tournament Committee and also Chairman of the London County Association (the country is subdivided into counties). None of this leaves much time for playing bridge even, let alone discussing it!

But I'm still here, but largely lurking. If something occurs to me that might be either instructive or amusing (or in an ideal world, a bit of both) I'll post it. Stig's combination of boasting and rather weak invective towards me(you really shouldn't start that sort of thing if you're rubbish at it) won't deter me. I've put up with much worse abuse than that!

I

[Bertil]

Are you the Ian the Pain in the Ass, who used to pester us in the past?
I can understand that you loved the opportunity to boast about you status.

Stig

[Nick France]

Wow, I can't wait to see what other insults you can find. Really
Stig, grow up. When you were a kid you acted like you do in these
threads. One would have hoped you had grown up

Nick France

[Bertil]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:34:39 AM UTC-4, iand...@gmail.com wrote:

No decent person would have to put up with worse. In fact, very few here
have to put up with any abuse, except those who abuse me.

Stig

[iand...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 22:22:51 UTC+1, Nick France wrote:

> Wow, I can't wait to see what other insults you can find. Really
>
> Stig, grow up. When you were a kid you acted like you do in these
>
> threads. One would have hoped you had grown up
>
>
>
> Nick France

++++To be fair (although I don't know why) I was being deliberately provocative (it's so easy, it's cruel, really) but if nothing else my point about the quality of the invective was proved beyond all reasonable doubt.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <f2fabf00-df55-4a05...@g9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
Nick France <gand...@optimum.net> wrote:
...

>Wow, I can't wait to see what other insults you can find. Really
>Stig, grow up. When you were a kid you acted like you do in these
>threads. One would have hoped you had grown up

What makes you think he's "grown up" now?

One of the major news items of the past decade or two is how kids are using the
Internet now.

--
They say compassion is a virtue, but I don't have the time!

- David Byrne -

[Bertil]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 11:35:47 AM UTC-4, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <f2fabf00-df55-4a05...@g9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Nick France <gand...@optimum.net> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >Wow, I can't wait to see what other insults you can find. Really
>
> >Stig, grow up. When you were a kid you acted like you do in these
>
> >threads. One would have hoped you had grown up
>
>
>
> What makes you think he's "grown up" now?
>
>
>
> One of the major news items of the past decade or two is how kids are using the
>
> Internet now.
>
>

You are so right, I'm just a kid, who has gotten a few ideas into Bridge World.
What have you ever contributed to the world of bridge? Feel free to list them.

Stig

[Nick France]

On May 17, 4:35 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, May 17, 2013 11:35:47 AM UTC-4, Kenny McCormack wrote:

> > In article <f2fabf00-df55-4a05-a551-4400a5b5e...@g9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

>
> > Nick France  <gandal...@optimum.net> wrote:
>
> > ...
>
> > >Wow, I can't wait to see what other insults you can find.  Really
>
> > >Stig, grow up.  When you were a kid you acted like you do in these
>
> > >threads.  One would have hoped you had grown up
>
> > What makes you think he's "grown up" now?
>
> > One of the major news items of the past decade or two is how kids are using the
>
> > Internet now.
>
> You are so right, I'm just a kid, who has gotten a few ideas into Bridge World.
> What have you ever contributed to the world of bridge? Feel free to list them.
>
> Stig
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > --
>
> > They say compassion is a virtue, but I don't have the time!
>
> >     - David Byrne -

You keep claiming to have published an article in Bridge World when
all you have ever done is had some letters to the editor published.
If you really published an article can you please provide the month
and year.

You hide in your little corner and claim all these great things that
really mean little. Let's compare you to me for the moment.

I have published various articles for both my unit and in the Kibitzer
in your unit. Have you published something in the Kibitzer that we
all missed?

I was director of my units "Master Solver's Club" for the two years
they had it. Did I miss something your unit trusted you with?

I have been priviledged to publish the hand of the month for Novices
on my unit's web page for 9 months. its a rotating honor and was
proud someone in our unit thought I was a good enough teacher. Did I
miss some article you published for your unit?

For several years I have provided free lessons for a chinesse auction
of a local charity in Fairfield. I've been told they consistantly get
one of the highest total of tickets. Did I miss that deman for your
lessons?

I have placed in over 20 national events (although never higher than
10). Have you even ever played in a National event.

Last summer I was on a team that finished 3/4 in the 0-5000 Mini
Spingold. What was nice about this is I had more MP than the combined
total of my 3 teammates (2 of which were former students of mine).
Our total MPs was just over 6000 and we were seeded near the bottom.
Have you ever
even played in one of these limited events at a national?

I have placed first in more Regional and Sectional events then I
actually remember. Have you even played in a Regional or Sectional?

Now I know there are many players who post here who's performs is much
better than mine. What I know is neither your written word nor
actually performance at the bridge table even comes close to mine or
those of my students or even students or my former students.

So stop trying to blow-up letters to the editor into something that
you want to claim is some "major" contibution to bridge. Learn how to
get past you obsession with opening hand evaluation and trying to put
an exact point count on a hand.

Nick France